Philosopher Roger Scruton - On Islam and the West (1/4)

[topperheartramada]

@BeerGrillzz Israel has no interest in escalating conflict, still less in randomly murdering civilians. Israel accepted the land offered to them in 1947, which was smaller than what they have today. The Arabs could have had their state already then but they chose war - several times. The only reason they are 'occupied' is that they kept attacking and losing, and Israel had to put a stop to this by establishing defensible borders along the river Jordan and in the Golan heights.

[ThePogle]

wake up forget religion start living lifes hard then we die!

[topperheartramada]

@thermionic1234567 the message of islam has too many unambiguous violent and hateful elements that you are likely to be stuck with oppression and violence. I don't see a way to reconcile islam and modernity. The only solution is to keep them away. There is no dialogue.

[mahmoud0elsaeed]

iam an ex-muslim , but i do love my islamic culture , i believe in no nationality , but still , i respect people conditions , islam is like any other religon , it's a response , not an action ..

although , islam is more progressed than the middle-age cristianity ... because of the historical conditions ,

dont ask muslims to be domercatic , while they are beeing killed be Israeel , and are hungery because USA financial world system !

what's democracy then ?!

[topperheartramada]

@mahmoud0elsaeed Every sentence you wrote betrays your ignorance and stupidity. I wanted to write a reply but I realised it would take me several pages to address the deluded content of your comment. 'Don't expect Muslims to be democratic' because of Israel? Is there NOTHING you people wo't blame on Israel? Is Israel the reason 1.5 billion Muslims all over the world can't be democratic?

[BeerGrillzz]

@topperheartramada Forget such idiots like that one. Yeah sure Israel of 7 mill l is killing ALL muslims. That`s just laughable claim. Those idiots are just jealous of Israel. Arabs are good for nothing & have nothing to offer anyone. Nuff said.

[lovellespice]

Islam has 4 mainstream schools of jurisprudence which pretty much agree on most things shariah

[thermionic1234567]

Sorry, but there are no work-arounds for the Islamic scriptures. Islam cannot be reformed because its authority comes from the Quran, Hadith and Sunnah.

[topperheartramada]

@thermionic1234567 It would be unrealistic to think that Islam could be reformed in any meaningful way. Certain groups of Muslims may choose to subscribe to a reformed reading (we do have the Sufis for instance), but toe expect a more or less permanent and widespread reformation would be naive. History shows that attempts at reform invariably fail in Islam.

[thermionic1234567]

@topperheartramada There is nothing to reform except the so-called "moderates." Islam is the religion of Osama Bin Laden, not Zuhdi Jasser.

[koldkilla124]

He looks so interesting but his ideas are so fuking boring.

[koldkilla124]

i wonder if he spends alot of time making his hair...

[abdul8w1]

There is another thing that we need to ask about Islam. And the question, How does a Muslim Women feel about the Niqap?. This question should be asked to a prostitute so we can have a more just answer.

You retarded people, how can you ask a person who is against religion about religion.

[SuperBabyBuddah]

@abdul8w1 ...Your Niqap/Prostitute analogy? It's sexist as hell. But you will blame "the media" for getting stereotyped as a sexist pig.

"how can you ask a person who is against religion about religion" you ask.

How can a religious person be expected to give objective answers? His own religion is The One Revealed Truth, and all other religions he considers false and misguided, and all Agnostic, Deist, and Atheist world views, he will consider to be heresies.

Better ask a non-religious person!

[Puresomalilander]

LET HATERS HATE ISLAM............BUT ISLAM IS SPREADING AND SPREADING TO ANY WHERE......BECAUSE ISLAM IS THE REAL RELGION FOR ALL PROPHETS......FROM ADAM - NOAH- ABRAHAM-MOSES-JESUS-MOHAMED.

[vtran31]

@Puresomalilander islam spreads because if u dont convert, the men kill u

[swiftspy]

@vtran31 : lol are you sure or is it just a guess? People converts because they don't stop at what medias are propagating about Islam. It takes guts to convert because once you are a muslim, hell starts falling on your head: Family, friends, life.... so only the courageaous one will decide to enter Islam whatever lies ae spread. Put your instrument away for a moment and go talk with muslims.

[SuperBabyBuddah]

@swiftspy You've said it best; "lol". If it "takes guts to convert" to Islam, then it takes a lot more guts to LEAVE Islam.

I cannot find many examples of violence from Christian or Jewish communities and families against Apostates...can you? But we can find many testimonials and cases of ex-Muslim Apostates who were shunned, even attacked, even KILLED, for leaving Islam and "betraying" its"truth"

[swiftspy]

@SuperBabyBuddah : You have a certain view point and a mentality that don't allow you to consider other perspective. How? Well all the wars waged by westerners in the last 20 years ARE, for me, huge violence made against muslims. Violence can have many faces: embargo, intimidation, killing etc... and we know what is happening in Irak, Afghanistan, Palestine etc. Yes, people may act violent against someone who lives Islam, they shouldn't. Yet, western mass murder is astonishing!

[SuperBabyBuddah]

@swiftspy So your answer about what happens to Muslims who want to leave Islam is an irrelevant diatribe on "Westerners" wars? OK: Some of those wars were actually waged to protect Muslims, remember Bosnia? Libya? Overthrowing Saddam? Or we can talk about Muslim massacres in recent times as well. Iraq vs Iran (millions killed), the insurgency in Iraq which means Muslims killing Muslims every week, the Turks killing Armenians, and how about Al Shahaab deliberately starving Muslims right now?

[swiftspy]

@SuperBabyBuddah : You see I'm telling you again that YOUR vision is different than mine and muslims. Dictators have to disapear but not with your help. Now please don't tell me that you buy that freedom and democraty to "retarded" people wich civilization and history was so far from yours :-). I don't see events like you do because I'am lived amongst my fellowship as well as yours. If I had power I wil start cleaning Arabia Saoudia from their filthy princes.

[SuperBabyBuddah]

@swiftspy No, I don't buy it. The Nazis won democratic elections. Netanyahu won democratic elections. Hamas won democratic elections. They base(d) their power on hating outsiders. DEMOCRACY IS NOT ENOUGH. What you need is a Constitution that protects the rights of minorities, the right to dissent, protects freedom of thought and puts these human rights ABOVE anyone's ethnic privilege or any religious authority. Which is why a Constitution MUST be secular. Sharia cannot give us this.

[swiftspy]

@SuperBabyBuddah : I don't know why you talk about sharia. I'm from North Africa my ancesters were not arabs. We were conquered as well, but today I'm a muslim and proud to be one. It is easy for you, when brought into freedom directly from the womb of your mother, to show me what freedom is. You are not teaching me anything here. Easy to talk about democratic values when the west have stolen every bit of welath: France and England especially.....

[SuperBabyBuddah]

@swiftspy You question the value of my words when I speak of freedom. You say it is too easy for me. I was born into it- true- and I think I know why it works. I think I understand why a system of law like Sharia cannot bring true democracy. No system which favours adherence to one creed to the detriment of others can. What value do your words on freedom have? Until North Africa has democracies where people migrate to in search of a better life, why should I listen to you speak on freedom?

[swiftspy]

@SuperBabyBuddah : Am I lecturing you on freedom? You said it, you were born with it. In Algeria we faced integrism in 1991 and it led to civil war for almost 11 years. I was there and left 1/2 year after slaugther started. I know what freedom is and why people asks for it. It is not just a concept for me nor a free time experience to share with others. I'm not used to type so much. I'm a muslim and if it is ok with you I thank you for the exchange and hope the best for you.

[SuperBabyBuddah]

@swiftspy I thank you for the exchange as well and wish you all the best.

[SuperBabyBuddah]

@swiftspy The fact is the West does not have a monopoly on violence or massacres. in fact, in the West it is normal to find enormous criticism for our actions in Iraq or Libya. In the West people constantly question the reasons we give and the methods we use. Can we say the same for Muslim societies? Do the Turks widely acknowledge what they did to the Armenians, for example? Or is only the West willing to admit its errors?

[swiftspy]

@SuperBabyBuddah : Talking about muslims dying by western or muslims hands does not do anything. Palestine is suffering because of western hypocrisy... No of course in muslim country we can't discuss methods used...BECAUSE we are not invaders! ...Lessen, you seem to be very gentle in our conversation and I think you are smart enough to understand that admitting errors does not lead to not reapeating them! Thnak you for this exchange.

[SuperBabyBuddah]

@swiftspy "Because we are not invaders" ? I'm not ignorant of history, are you? Remember the Islamic expansion the first century after Muhammad?That was an invasion. The Caliphates?=imperialists.Sicil­y and the Iberian peninsula?=invaded. Remember the Muslim slave trade?=spoils of war. The Ottoman Empire?=imperialists. Remember the conquest of India, where Muslims destroyed towns and temples because they considered it to be Jahiliyyah? More recently, remember Saddam invading Kuwait?

[swiftspy]

@SuperBabyBuddah : You are telling me things I already know and some I acknowledge already. I'm well aware of what Muslims did or not, even if your views may be discussed and counter examples given. Our world is not the 2000 niqabis in France, or the miserable rockets launched on Israel, or the rare beheading or stoning.... today our world is ruled by the west and their actions are based on greed. Again, you should try another view, the one Muslims feel.

[SuperBabyBuddah]

@swiftspy I'm sorry but if you had already acknowledged any of what I said, you wouldn't have claimed Muslims "are not invaders". I am glad you are willing to acknowledge it now. Today our world is ruled by the West? The West acts based on greed? You know it's funny how Edward Said built a career accusing Westerners of treating the East as a monolith and ascribing an Eastern nature to it. Here you are doing the same with "the West". If this is your view, I find it simplistic.

[SuperBabyBuddah]

@swiftspy "in muslim country we can't discuss(...)BECAUSE we are not invaders! .."

Just like Christianity; the reason Islam is an international religion now, and not just a local Arabic cult, is because Muslims have been imperialists and invaders of other peoples. The reason you "can't discuss" these dark pages of your history, is because it is not considered anything negative! In fact, it is considered a part of Islam's miraculous achievements! A bit hypocritical of you to point a finger.

[KumarZimmerman08]

Good-bye Western Civilization.

[hamzah938]

Christians and Muslims must come to a common ground. Between them both, they comprise 3 BILLION human beings!  They must remain on the same side when controversy rises!

[Bleakunending]

@hamzah938 If only there were more Muslims like you...

[HalfFullYeah]

@hamzah938

If only more Muslims like you were speaking their minds louder than the freaky minority!

Cheers!

(Assuming you're a Muslim!)

[BenNCM]

is roger scruton's hair for real? it's bloody amazing

[thegreatfearblog]

re discussion from 6:25, a note on "modernist" or "reformer" Muslims: Islam, through the Koran, instils upon the believers the notion that morality is flexible. The only morality, like in communism, is the only one that furthers the advancement of the party. Reformers may be genuine, or they may be deceiving the west, in order to gain time to further their cause. Scruton should be aware of that concept. It's very clear, for example, by the treatment of "non believers" prescribed in the Koran

[caviper1]

Interesting talk.

[billbenblue]

This man is no doubt a very intelligent person . . . but he's damn DRY. Holy shit, if I were stuck in a lecture hall listening to this man drone on and on about aesthetics or whatever else, I think I'd wind up wanting to shoot myself.

[Thirdoptionisthename]

@billbenblue

Leave the histrionics out! Learning isn't entertainment, unless you're an American.

[billbenblue]

@Thirdoptionisthename And life doesn't need to be so drab, unless you're an Englishman.

[RiverChaopraya]

This is interesting. Thank you for posting.

[bahramf]

What's fundamentally troubling about Scruton here is how much he seems to believe philosophy/theology influence how people live. People read themselves into their faith. The problem isn't the koran or the bible. The problem is the people, poverty, etc.

[JonathanWKnight]

@bahramf very true, however, to use a metaphor, guns don't kill people, but they make it alot fucking easier. =)

[bahramf]

@JonathanWKnight Guns too. Not theology though.

[wyattwerp10]

he is such a lovely man. I feel privileged, as a muslim, to hear this man's words.

[SpiritualAtheist]

I believe in Genesis Eve is told that Adam shall rule over her. That is not equal. This guy is very good at ignoring biblical facts that don't meet "theory".

[thedict8or]

@SpiritualAtheist "biblical fact" = oxymoron

[Marenqo]

Good presenter

[chrish12345]

is rog wearin a pearl earing?

[Jillaroo79]

@chrish12345 No, that is the mic.

[lloydismint]

@chrish12345 It is a head set microphone. Not an earing

[Wootah111]

What is the name of the music at the start of this video - I loved it.

[djsmurfie]

@Wootah111 It's a UK Grime tune, but I forget which one.

[chrish12345]

@djsmurfie yeah I think Scruton likes Grime, he devoted a whole chapter to it in his book on 'music and aesthetics'.

[kleopaart]

@Wootah111 I think it's bastardized version of Bruckner's Symphony No. 9, part 2 - Scherzo.

[kleopaart]

@Wootah111 I think it's bastardized version of Scherzo from Bruckner's symphony No 9.