Obama on religulousity

[broomhall23]

@mytone1967 you speak sense! Finally, a rational person, I think this is a very good speech, as an atheist, I think it's about time the religious stopped acting like they are the only people living on this planet!

[broomhall23]

@throne2008 I agree

[MaQuGo119]

"Lighthouses are more useful than churches"- Benjamin Franklin

"Helping hands are more noble than the lips that pray."Robert Green.

[thone2008]

Hes an Atheist, but wont Admit because of the fear of ridicule

[loverich]

@thone2008 ridicule? not ridicule, people would be terrified by him admitting it... americans are atheisto-fobic ;))) but it would be great if he admitted it after his mandate.

[irishgal2002697]

he's going to have a lot of explaining to do.

[matt510245]

Obama is so an athiest!

[brmorrison61]

moral values from the supreme court down will always be guided by HISTORY! REAL DOCUMENTED HISTORY! not the bible my friend.

[martyaus2905]

I bet Obama is an atheist

[metrodome934]

@martyaus2905 unfortunately he is not an atheist. also he turned to religion by choice, not by brainwashing from his family. he also stands for reason though, unlike every single republican

[arvelos76]

I love this speech...

[mikemurko]

YES YES YES YES YES YES!

[TheShadowSatey]

Brillian, Obama. Very brilliant!

[BNAIBRITH1]

religion is bullshit

[michaelshannonjjj]

@BNAIBRITH1 Perhaps, but not my my God Jehova and what He stands for. Try Him out and not religion. Or are you looking for reasons to hate Him? There are infinite reasons not to hate Him. ZERO REASONS TO HATE HIM. Now you can choose to hate Him, that is your loss. But be careful, to hate Him is to be His enemy. Now, my Lord said unto my Lord, "sit at my right hand til I make your enemies Your footstool". Decisions, decisions. His decision is to love you. Choose wisely. Your eternity is at stake.

[bakerjr12]

I Would like to see the an unedited copy.

[askani21]

Bravo Obama. Thank you for bringing reason and rationality to the USA politics!

[Kenz305]

Am I having an aneurysm or did I just listen to a president that makes sense

[AsherSax]

One of the many reasons to love our (fairly new) President. He's just trying to tell America and the world that he is considerate of everyone's religion. I'm a Christian and don't look at this and think, "That's not right, this is a Christian nation and should always be a Christian nation." I look at it and think this is right. Christianity was just an example of religious freedom. If the pilgrims were all atheists who also opposed the Church of England, no Christian could use this excuse.

[link40k]

obama is a athiest .... im pretty sure hes so far in the closet hes in narnia

[mandolinroad]

@link40k We can always hope but sadly, I think he believes in the fairy tales, too.

[michaelshannonjjj]

To Obama and anyone else who wants to exlude the Word of God from everything. This is what you do; When you take the Ten Commandments out of the courts, take them out of the courts for real. Without the Ten Commandments your courts and laws would be erased. There would be total chaos. Society would be in ruins. How do you measure a thing to be right or wrong? Who gave you the standard in which to live by? Without the God of the bible, the God of Jews and Christians,yuwudnotnohowtolive­! CHECKMATE

[loverich]

@michaelshannonjjj

Are you an EdwardCurrent fan or are you being serious? :)

You should learn to play chess better. ;)

[michaelshannonjjj]

@loverich Does not matter if I know how to play chess or not, the term still applies. He is the Most High God and He rules and there is none above Him. The Father and The Son are One, The Father and The Holy Spirit are One, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are All One. The Holy Trinity Who is blessed forever, amen. For Jehova so loved the world that He gave His Son Jesus so you would not have to perish but have eternal life. Set your love on Jesus and LIVE. Reject Him and PERISH.CHECKMATE

[rib1000000]

@michaelshannonjjj, Your an idiot,and you've obviously never played chess if you think thats checkmate. People don't need words on a stone to tell them how to behave, its natural. We've evolved the capacity to care for one another not to kill each other because it helps us as humans survive, not because of a couple of rocks. You think that without the ten commandments we would all suddenly go on killing sprees and judges wouldn't know who to send to jail? Checkmate.

[michaelshannonjjj]

@rib1000000 EvIdently I know what the term checkmate means, you answered that for me by matching the term to the correct game, (chess). I can tell you just learned your a,b,c's to. Enough childsplay lets talk grown-up stuff. You do not attack me but you attack my Lord and Saviour Jesus. It is a mutt who turns and bite the hand that feeds him. My Father Jehova loved you so much that He sent His Son Jesus to save you. It is not wise to reject Him. It is really elementary, REPENTORPERISH CHECKMATE!

[michaelshannonjjj]

@rib1000000 You go on killing sprees with the Ten Commandments in the law books. Take the Ten Commandments out of the law books and you would go on killing sprees and get away with it, on earth that is. Look, Heaven is His throne and Earth is His footstool, Jehova that Is. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. I choose to bow now, how about you? Don't wait for to long, choose now and choose wisely, while you still have a living body or it will be to late.CHECKMATE

[erkman222]

@michaelshannonjjj Its time to just shut up. Your not smart. You are not right. Your not going to win. Nothing you say makes sense, and nobody except people that are screwed up in the head like you even remotely believe anything ur saying. Eat some mushrooms and let god dance with u in a techno club of his love. Unless dancing under flashing lights is a sin. Checkmate

[snubbs741]

@michaelshannonjjj I'm curious, so if God never said not to kill or lie or steal, you would think it was okay? You seem to have enough understanding of morals and justice that you wouldn't need someone else to tell you something so obvious.

[Kenz305]

@snubbs741 don't forget things like the crusades, looks like God is responsible for killing more than protecting.

[eggplnt]

@michaelshannonjjj I don't think that having another god before yours would lead to societal breakdown. Also, I am personally against the idea of the 6 day workweek, simply creating this structure could be seen as creating an idol... breaking one command, I don't want to require people to honor their fathers and mothers, as many of them are not worthy of such honor, and I don't think we have the space in jail to house all the politicians who bear false witness against their neighbor every year.

[HAUEhuaheau91]

@michaelshannonjjj Checkmate atheists!

[calirooster411]

@michaelshannonjjj COMMON FUCKING SENSE IS ALL U NEED 2 KNOW WHATS RIGHT OR WRONG,NOT A BOOK, IF UR NOT SMART ENOUGH 2 KNOW WHAT THAT IS THEN WE AS A PEOPLE DO NOT REQUIRE UR PRESENCE. GO KILL URSELF AND DONT HAVE KIDS

[michaelshannonjjj]

@calirooster411 It is very simple, your choice of words gives every reader a clear insight that you do not obtain common sense. You do not only need the books of the bible but every book containing common sense and wisdom. It is obvious you need my presence. And the presence of a psychiatrist. I will not kill myself. On the other hand I believe you will, so let me or somemone help you. It is very clear you do know how to play. Jesus is Lord. CHECKMATE.

[erkman222]

@michaelshannonjjj How does the commandments tell u how to live? Dont kill? What has all that has stood behind the commandments done? Kill. You do things right because you have a brain. I dont need religion to tell me how to be good. I do it on my own.

God has something to tell me. So ill go up onto a mountain, but nobody else can go with me.

Making up Bulls--t creates chaos. And our world in already in ruins thanks to your 10 BS commandments.

[michaelshannonjjj]

@erkman222 My Father Jehova, you know the One that loved you so much that he gave His Son Jesus to die for you so you wud not perish but have eternal life. He also gave you a standard to live by. So you wud not detsroy your own fool self. Like I said, break some of these commandments and get caught doing it and the very ones that you have so much confidence in, you know science/mankind will hide you out for a while. Everykneewillbowandeverytongue­willconfesJesusisLord.ICHOOSET­OBOWNOWHOWBOUTYOU

[erkman222]

@michaelshannonjjj So he gives his son to us to die. Yet he is our father. So we are sons. But jesus is the son of man, and we are man. So jesus is son of man and son of god. So, in the end, GOD IS MAN. which mean man made him up. Just like all the rediculous things you have to say. CHECKMATE

[michaelshannonjjj]

@erkman222 You are not His son. Did you think that? You are a son of satan. Your father the devil. You have to exept His Son Jesus to become His child. You did not know? We were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. I say we, as in the body of Christ our Lord. Your lord is the devil. Now do you want to be a son or daughter of God.Then you must except Jesus as your Lord. Jesus is before man ever was, for by Him were all things created.JILCHECKMATE!!

[erkman222]

@michaelshannonjjj I dont want to be your gods son, but you do. So that still doesnt rectify what i sayed before. One day you will realize that you are just as screwed up in the head as everyone else who takes the bible this seriously. Until god comes down and says, "Hey everyone, i am god, i am sorry iv been tormenting this whole world and having idiots like michaelshannon talk to u about stuff, most of which was made up by people doing lots of drugs" I shall remain an atheist. PS. whenhecoming

[sackybungalowed]

@michaelshannonjjj

hey half tard anyone with half a brain could have made the ten commandments up we didnt need some bum in a desert to tell us killing people is wrong mmkkk

[michaelshannonjjj]

@sackybungalowed Ok, do you consider yourself smart? I am sure you do. So make your own set of ten commandments, and lets see if the entire earth set there laws up on there authority as they have done the Ten commandments of the bible, created by Jehova/God. You really do not know how to play. Jesus is Lord. CHECKMATE!!!!!!!

[jarhead4life]

@michaelshannonjjj Yeah I know right. There's no way that 1) There were laws much like ours before the Ten Commandments were ever "made" by God, and 2) Humanity is completely incapable of making moral decisions on laws by itself. God is a must for us to be moral and form basic rights. I totally agree dude.

[iutzi]

@michaelshannonjjj people would be coveting each others wives left right and center!

[rawssremix]

@michaelshannonjjj I am an atheist. My morals don't come from the bible. In my mind, a thing is measured to be right or wrong by one simple thing: happiness. If your actions make a person happy, at no expense of others' happiness, then what you've done is right. If your actions detract from the happiness of the society or the individual, your actions are wrong. It's a simple system, the only variable being happiness. Do things that make people happy, without detracting from others' happiness.

[itzahazylife]

@michaelshannonjjj

he wants to exclude the word of god from law and the public sector! and guess what? so did the founding fathers. do u have a problem with the founding fathers?

and your nonsense about morality. morality doesn't derive from the 10 commandments. it derives from reason and common sense refining society over time. refraining from stealing and harming people benefits u and the rest of society. being cooperative and helpful makes our society much more convenient to exist in.

[badaboomrock]

@michaelshannonjjj The laws you speak of were give to ancient man by all kind of god before your Christian or Hebrew god was even thought of, study your history look at the facts and think .

[CalicoVall]

@michaelshannonjjj Ummmm...but we were playing checkers?

[mots35]

@michaelshannonjjj

Okay sounds good Michael. You show me Mount Sinai on a map and I'll hear you out. Until then, no checkmate, sorry.

[empbac]

@michaelshannonjjj

Since the Ten Commandments have nothing whatever to do with our laws (except the three that we also uphold: don't murder, steal, or bear false witness), it would make absolutely no difference. It doesn't take a genius to know that murder, theft, and perjury are counterproductive to a healthy society. Really. Go ask a sociologist. The Bible has no part in the discussion and never has.

By the way, WHICH set of 10 commandments do you refer to? There are two, you know.

[victoriameli121781]

what a great man

[dmcgraye]

I do wonder if he's a closet atheist, he looks at religion too rationally to be a believer.

[sqwishdabug]

I love my president

[scruffs7]

smart man. despite your feelings on his policies, its comforting to know that we have a rational, secular, intelligent person leading the country.

and any objective reading of his presentation would clearly suggest this man is an atheist

[Aleva932]

"A true Bible believing church does not pick and choose which Scripture suits them best and leave out what they don't like." Deuteronomy 22:20 says you must kill your wife if you find out she is on a virgin on the wedding night. no one in civilized society does that. we all pick and chose what we take to heart from scripture. it is shows us we have a higher level of morality than people did 2000 years ago. it also shows us that the bible and other works are the word of man not god

[Rawk4Life]

If we were living under Old Testament law, then yes you should kill your wife if she was not a virgin on her wedding day. However, as Christians we are to live what Jesus and His disciples preached as shown in the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament. The disciples did not say to stone your kids if they leave the faith, or to put to death anyone who doesn't pay their regular tithes.

[dmcgraye]

@Rawk4Life if you think the new testament is any suitable guide to morality and governance, you should read it again. Slavery bad.

[Rawk4Life]

Obama should stop going to church since he has so many problems with Scripture. A true Bible believing church does not pick and choose which Scripture suits them best and leave out what they don't like.

[loverich]

@Rawk4Life lucky for us he does leave them out. he'd be stoning his children otherwise, amongst other horrible things.

[Rawk4Life]

We are under New Testament law, God does not require us to follow anything from the Old Testament except the 10 Commandments.

[Aleva932]

@Rawk4Life "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

[petterutiful]

@Rawk4Life Also, he's probably a closet-case Atheist.

[JiangZiyaTabooDays]

@Rawk4Life Why the hell would a poltician endanger his reelection chances by opposing the delusions of the ensorceled masses? They're part of the same duplicitous mind control scheme; the only time a politician opposes the power structure is through deceitful rhetoric before jumping into the sea of lies feet first when they get to D.C.

[michaelshannonjjj]

@Rawk4Life God did not say stone your children or any children for that matter. Read the bible like Obama said, but when you read make sure you understand as you do with any other book. The stoning of whoever it was, came from the laws of man. God is always trying to bring man's thoughts and ways to His thoughts and ways. What about the book of Job, God disagreed with everything Job said. Whatever Jesus tell you to do just obey. If everyone listened to Him we would not be in the shape we are in

[Rawk4Life]

Thanks for pointing that out. Many religious skeptics take the laws of man from the O.T. and try to hold God responsible for them. God would never tell any of His children to go into a land and rape women as well. Many of the Old Testmament laws were set in motion for cultural purposes, but they weren't necessarily condoned by God Himself.

[badaboomrock]

@Rawk4Life No but this is a common problem with most churches. If god speaks through his word why does everybody need someone else to translate gods meaning

[MrEddie0228]

@Rawk4Life Are you serious? Are you not picking and choosing what you also think is good?

[empbac]

@Rawk4Life

All Christians pick and choose. It's called "cherry-picking." If they didn't pick and choose they would have to do all sorts of crazy things, such as stone to death those they love, sacrifice animals on altars, donate EVERYTHING they own to the church so it can be distributed among the members evenly (communism, anyone? See Acts 5), spend 7 days in a tent outside the city after an inadvertent wet dream, and refrain from eating shellfish, such as lobster, crab, and shrimp.

[Miguel5809]

truthfoundinwords: YOu fucking idiot did you ever learn U.S. History? idiot! seperations of state and church was meant to keep church out of government you dumb shit not government out of church! Where the hell did you get ur facts from?

[holyluminus]

that was an impressive speech that satisfied believers and non-believers

[phronze]

i was so scared to scroll down and see a bunch of hating. im glad most of us are rationalists. Obamas the man

[wildfire1138]

Religion is crap. The bible is a history text with flare and fantasy. People that live their lives on imaginary friends are the red tape of humanity. Grow up!

[whatfruit]

when was this speech made?

[albettatrue]

Just when i was beginning to lose faith in Obama, i see this. long live Obama

[ashkenazimindcontrol]

calculated speach written by this ashkenazi cabinet. Same ashkenazi that murdered millions in the Russian revolution 1918.

[loverich]

mhm... interesting ;)

[antibulletdodger101]

this speach alone shouldve made him president.

[MeestaKeefGirly]

tho his economic policy sucks dildos he is rather smart level headed fella.

[truthfoundinwords]

hahahaha... you do know that the church and state law was to keep the government out of the Church... not the church out of the Government... please, if you really have questions... hit me up... i would love to hear of your opinion...

[loverich]

lol :)))

[dmcgraye]

@truthfoundinwords your desperation is evident

[JiangZiyaTabooDays]

@truthfoundinwords Were that true, the Separation Clause would have been omitted from the Bill of Rights, with only the Free Exercise Clause kept in. It wasn't a "church and state law," it was the First Amendment to the Constitution with the force of law. Read the Bill of Rights before you speak as if possessive of even rudimentary knowledge, and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom or Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists, at that.

[truthfoundinwords]

@JiangZiyaTabooDays MS.:Though you seem as if you understand, you don't. The government wants to take control of our economy and etc. pushing to NWO. So please don't exhaust me with this garbage. Repent, and put your trust in God.

[xdeliriumx1]

I completely agree with him, a path of praising only one religion is a path to an even more fascist state.

[chelsmarie1989]

I love Obama more and more each day

[potatopizza93]

finally is right

[VoteForGandalf2012]

wow thank "god" that there's finally some intelligence in our government

[Rawk4Life]

Intelligence, you mean the same man who said he wouldn't prepare our military for any nuclear threats that might be imposed upon us by China or Russia?

[commandedtorepent]

Message to Obama: The War is Between God and Satan. Between Good and Evil. This war has been going on since the foundation of this world. So has the plan of The Lord Jesus Christ...He is the plan forordained from the foundation of this world......Simply to the Cross I cling nothing in my hand I brind...remembernoah and sodom and gommorah and Rome.....Just because the majority doesnt believe that doesnt make them right....Please REPENT

[Supernova310]

aaaaand you're an idiot

[commandedtorepent]

Message to Obama: George Washington is Ashamed of you and all the men before you that held your Office...What you dont Understand God became Flesh.....We are saved by the Blood of Christ and nothing but the Blood....Run this Country by Love One Another as I have Loved you....Then dont Forget PROPHECY___HE is the Promised Seed...God Came to this World 2000 years Ago....and He will Have the Last word.......God is Eternal....

[hatakei]

...freak  =)

[Lusitanus]

Religion and State NEVER be together, STATE must be LAIC and must accept its citizens and their believers.

[Miniboulette]

Stop winning people. When we someone starts talking about religion you always say it's a " misunderstanding of the bible" ..stop now, you guys don't even unederstand your own bible. This guy, Obama, may have faith. Let him do his job to make U.S a real democratie ! We've been living that way in france since 1905, it's never bothered anybody, So now stop wining and change ! ( and get rid of that " in god we trust" on your coin).

[melbourneopera]

Stupid....they were the reflection of the atitute they react. The only thing I doubt is the bible never tells we should worship Mary and Jesus (have the image of god like us) so we can worship the so called Jesus if I called I am he? What a crap....

God bless American to wake up.....Most of them didn't know why they worship god, and at the time Muslim continue to high breed to take over the world

[danndan6]

shut up obama. you're not a democracy. your a constitutional republic that allows the minority (bush) to win over the majority (gore)

[danndan6]

idiot. shelfish is only prohibited for jews and stoning was hardly ever done and only as a last resort for capital punishment against murderers. the man is talking about something he knows nothing about.

[loverich]

he's talking about what's IN THE BIBLE. you're talking about how YOU INTERPRET THE BIBLE. we should stick to things that are universal and verifiable by everyone, not some 2000 old stories that everyone can interpret as he/she wants. THAT was his point, not whether you should eat shelfish or not.

[Firestarter5757]

Does that mean you disagree with what he says? Is his point less valid because he didn't mention the specifics, even if he didn't know about them?

[danndan6]

exactly! he made false accusations and based it on complete misunderstanding of the bible

[Firestarter5757]

Okay, let me rephrase his point: if we follow the words of each bible exactly then we'd be have some pretty crazy policies, and I completly agree with that or else we'd be killing any wife that's not a virgin and brutally excecuting all homosexuals, it's not important which rule is in which scripture, it just matters that there's some with rules that shouldn't be a government policy, don't you agree?

[danndan6]

i agree that you, just like obama, completely misunderstand the teachings of the bible. there is no executing homosexuals, killing non virgins etc.

you both need to talk to a rabbi :)

[Firestarter5757]

"A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin she shall be executed." Deuteronomy 22:13-21

Please sir, tell me which part I misunderstood.

[danndan6]

the verse refers not to if the wife was a virgin before the marriage bro. it is about her commiting adultery during the marriage......................­and the israelite courts did not carry out capital punishment more than once a year. in fact, in jewish law, if the court gave the death penalty more than once a year, it was considered a libelious court and disbanded. so you misunderstood the court system, and the situation that you mentioned.

[Firestarter5757]

Okay I got that (sorry I'm the least religious jew to walk this earth lol) but still, do you really want a system of laws based on religious texts? And how will that work in areas that certain texts contradict others?

[danndan6]

i never stated that i want religious laws governing the US. i simply was stating that barak was basing it on a misunderstanding of the text. anyways, when there are contradictions in law in judaism, the mishnah explains what takes priority.

[fundles420]

Exactly how many pieces of religious text does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Have you ever done a book report for school? You read the book, then you write down a summary of the book you read. If schools had a class once a week for like 30-45 minutes for ~5 years, where they read the bible, then in segments write book reports, you'd really see what the bible teaches people. No you wouldn't have bill maher teaching the kids. Israelite court records don't give the bible an excuse for its crap.

[danndan6]

you missed something. the old testement is 2% of the jewish scriptures. you dont know the first thing about judaism

[ruzan10]

And that is why I voted for this man. Thanks for posting.

[loverich]

you're welcome :)

[Reip187]

As for the video. Obviously great things to say, but none of it means anything if he is a politician. This is long gone, and clearly the pandering to the Christian majority is not going away anytime soon. I find it hypocritical to the nth degree when he can disregard these teachings, yet still claim these beliefs and I voted for him.

[wally1979]

Rational intelligent people with some common sense ... can't believe in the bible and of course in jesus...no one EVER knew how to explain this to me without trying to scare me... religion = control = money = violence.

[petterutiful]

@wally1979 "religion = control = money = violence" Interesting how you added money into the equation. Yeeeees.

[sandroeleven]

obama got all those verses wrong....misinterpretation people.

[loverich]

well that's what he was trying to get across. each individual interprets those verses in their own way. that's why "holy" books should never be used in arguments that require objectivity.

[Firestarter5757]

but at the same time our own government is based on the constitution and we have an entire branch of government that exists just to interpret the it

[oran6es]

The ultimate connection. God became man. In so doing, he became like us. When we suffer, we become like Him. We are all connected. Me, you, everything seen and unseen, connected. Makes perfect sense. Proof, nope. I could be wrong. So what. If it doesn't make sense to you, so what. No need to argue about it. That's wasting good breath. Peace.

[8DX]

This is some mean sh#t!.. I haven't heard Obama speak this reasonably after his election tho.. much more uppity and grand-scheme. These excerpts make perfect sense and I think most people can and should agree on them.

[oran6es]

To story of Abraham and Isaac is a precursor and is to point out what God did for us. It's to point out the sacrifice of God giving His own son for the love of us. Those that see can understand this.

[loverich]

how sweet. an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god, that could have just snapped his fingers to fix anything he wanted... decided to send his son on a suicide mission so that we would say "wooow, he killed his son for us, he really loves us". what an evil character that is.

an all-loving creature would fix things in secret, without making us feel we owe him something... and especially without killing a good innocent character in the process...

[loverich]

but he didn't really sacrifice anything, check this 2 videos to see what I mean:

watch?v=EVQHd5mR02s

watch?v=jz6XRwtM2jg

[EZrussian]

How can believe that without seeing it? Someone else said it you picked it up now you have blind believe that you cant explain. If you try it will shatter in pieces and you wont have anything to believe in thats why you dont question god or bible.

Obama has good intentions hope he succeeds in his goals.

[Gunnariffic]

What did God do for us? What specifically changed with the death of Jesus? How has this irrational belief directly benefited you, and can you deliver indisputable proof?

Those of us who can see that this "god" fellow is purely fictional understand things better than the believers who claim to see something that is not there.

Religion is a shield for people who go their whole lives without any ideas of their own.

[fallenone202]

Brilliant! Finally a president that doesn't invoke an imaginary sky daddy in presidential policy. It's about time. Maybe a few generations from now, rationality will be the main course and a president won't have to even pretend his religious to get elected.

[loverich]

Let's hope so :)

[RJackson3625]

We can not let our lives be run by the beliefs or motives of one group of people. With Americans more in debt from health care and education it should be one of the first things provided by our nation that we pay taxes to. If you're not into socialism start with your state that's where public schools ARE free (with your tax money) & free health care is subsidized by your local & state government. Instead of war and big business an educated & healthy America is where to start if we want change.

[gergenheimer]

My sources are the dozens of times I've listened to him speak. The intonation of his voice and the calm, collected arrogance with which he speaks about massive increases in the size of government (Universal Healthcare), or forced redistribution of wealth, or MANDATORY community service programs for all public school and college students. All of these things mean more power, more control for the Federal government. They are also all totally unconstitutional.

[RJackson3625]

Congratulations you are in the top 1% of people in our country who have enough money to not give a fuck. Health care & education should be free for everyone. It's very selfish & ignorant to think any different. How will we grow as a people the "human beings" if simple things like education and every person's well being are taken for granted. Far be it for the government to want to have people help people because they are too selfish to do it themselves. And this [America] is a christian country.

[isgoanrain]

America is not a Christian Country. The people who created and wrote the laws for your country explicitly and passionately stated that NO religion shall be attached to it's government, and most of them were Non-Christians. Your country was created because of the religious ideas in Europe. They wanted freedom from its control. Now you people piss on what your Fathers have tried to create for you.

[isgoanrain]

Actually all of these things mean Canada... We have mandatory community service (a great idea to add positive effect to the communities around the country) and free healthcare...(which you might be mentally slow not to agree with).

This is the first time in I don't know how long where I heard a president/prime minister/leader elect that made me truly want to applaud. THIS is the face of a true leader.

[gergenheimer]

Make no mistake about what you believe -when you assert the virtue of mandatory community service or the "right" to "free" healthcare, you are claiming the right to put a gun to my head and force your beliefs on me. Of course, since you ask the State to do your bullying for you, you don't get any blood on your hands - this is how you can rationalize the diffuse, sanitized violence that is Socialism.

[isgoanrain]

Right to free healthcare? Is a violent forceful ideal? You tell me that you believe that one must pay to become healthy. Pay to be able to live a life. that shows freedom but the idea of paying tax to your community to help a whole including yourself is evil? Socialism as a whole cannot work I agree, but having socialist ideals in a country is NOT violent or forceful. Plus it's "mandatory" for kids to go to school, community service is just one part of the schooling that aids communities...

[gergenheimer]

Look a doctor in the eye and tell them you have a right to be treated by them, whether they want to or not, and that if they refuse, government will punish them. Do you still contend there is no force in a universal healthcare system? There is a name for a human being who is forced to serve another human being against his will, that name is "slave". You have a right to your life and to help others sustain theirs, (ever heard of charity?) but you do not have the right to demand help from anyone.

[isgoanrain]

Tell me that charity saves more lives than universal healthcare, and I'll believe you.

Also, tell me that a doctor didn't choose his path into the medical. A doctor also has the right to decline helping a patient. Government will not interfere, they will simply be fired, because there is someone who DOES wish to help the individual. I don't have to put a fucking gun to my doctor's head to get her to aid me. I go to the clinic, give my card and when someone is available to help, they do.

[gergenheimer]

So, your only test for whether something is right for a society is what keeps more people alive, not what preserves peoples' individual rights? By your logic, we should immediately outlaw smoking, drinking, motorcycles, cheeseburgers and unmarried sex, because without those things more people will be saved from the consequences of their bad decisions. The point you missed isn't about a specific doctor refusing a specific patient, it's about limiting freedom to choose the course of your life.

[isgoanrain]

Of course I don't imply that philosophy. I believe humans absolutely should have choice in what they do. Free healthcare does not force choice on anyone. Like I told you, if you don't want to pay taxes, then don't. It's that simple, and there's consequences for every action. Unfortunately, not everyone can afford to go pay for their health like you. I know I couldn't pay for a doctor, especially with my university bills coming up, which should also be free. And yes... that means more taxes.

[gergenheimer]

And what do you think would happen to me if I choose not to pay my taxes? When the "choice" is between letting the tyranny of the majority tell me what to do or having the govt. kick in my door and cart me off to jail for refusing to comply, that is no choice at all. Do you actually believe that majority vote gives a society the right to do anything it wants, including commit violence on an unwilling minority? If so, you need to realize that you don't actually believe in freedom.

[isgoanrain]

As I told you before, I hold belief that a non-currency based society would be the most freedom and is the best choice for humans. People are far, far too simple to understand what that even means, let alone be able to support the system at this time. I believe in freedom, but my and your country alike are enslaved by our government in every form. I don't believe in the war, but I pay taxes for it...

[gergenheimer]

As I said before, and maybe you are too young to know this, but before govt. intruded into the healthcare market back in the 1960's, people simply went to the doctor and paid for it themselves, and people weren't dying in the streets for lack of medical care. Private charities helped those who fell through the cracks (ever heard of Shriner's Hospitals for one example?) This charitable impulse dwindles over time as people come to believe it's govt's job to take care of us, as we see in Europe.

[gergenheimer]

What would you say to a person whose religious beliefs tell them that it is a sin to seek medical treatment? Would you still require them to pay taxes to support your "free" healthcare, even though they believe it's an abomination? Would you tell them "tough luck" because you believe the interests of "The Society" trump the rights of individuals? How do you not see this as forcing someone?

[isgoanrain]

I do truly understand what you mean, and I agree to an extent. But you have to understand that as a whole, European countries are the most succesful, healthy and economically balanced countries in the world. You have to see, the majority of individuals in North American countries don't have the head you hold on your shoulders. They do not have impulse for charity, or to help eachother, only themselves. Who can blame them? The economy is worth nothing what it was, and people are terrified.

[isgoanrain]

I respect your ideals, and I truly wish that the world did in fact work the way it should, but it doesn't. Fact of the matter is, the largest benefit for public health will be to make a free healthcare system in your Country.That is simply my opinion. You can afford your healthcare, which is great, but the good 80+% of people cannot. It's cruel and personally immoral to wish to have your invisible sense of personal liberty to be kept while people become sicker which feeds more to the corrupt Gov

[Reip187]

Let's bring out the honesty here a bit. isgronrain, while it is nice to say things like "most people" to try and convey a point about what you personally want for yourself it is being intellectually dishonest. You want these universal payouts due to your own need for it. Not simply because it is the right thing to do. There is no better time to push these ideals than now with so many struggling. That does not mean gergenheimer's points aren't completely valid and in line with liberty.

[isgoanrain]

Sir I'm not sure which points you are debating with me for I barely even remember the conversation I had on this board. I can however promise you that I would never wish for a "universal payout" simply because of my own need for it. My whole life is a constant strive for what I see as "truth", whether it be personal or universal. I believe our main talk was on healthcare that's all I really remember lol. As for the speech you're spot on, you cannot disagree with the teachings of your own belief.

[isgoanrain]

You don't want to pay for the free healthcare in your taxes? Don't... you don't get a healthcard and you can pay when you're sick. This isn't a monarchy, there's no gun to your head, though with your current setup it's borderline that. You pay your taxes for free healthcare in GUANTANAMO BAY. So don't complain about paying those dollars for people like you and me. I dream of one day people being intelligent enough to sustain an anarchist based society, but we're nowhere near that yet.

[gergenheimer]

I want to pay for my own healthcare, which I could easily do if govt. interference in the healthcare market hadn't forced the individual consumer out of the equation. Govt. created tax-breaks for corporations to provide healthcare for their employees, which made it so the individual could no longer compete in the open market to provide his/her own health insurance and naturally chose his employer's plan. The hated HMOs emerged precisely because of this govt. interference in the market.

[phmota]

Obama recognizes explicitly the non-believers!

I do not live in US, but I feel this is first time that a first rank politician talks about non-believers with respect and care.

[gergenheimer]

I'm a non-believer, and this poser doesn't give a damn about me or you. The only reason he challenges religion is because he hates anything that competes with his authority to run your life. I have already witnessed the blind infallibility that is attributed to this man. On my college campus, someone wrote graffiti that said, "Fuck Obama." A rally was held to combat this "racial intolerance."

[loverich]

"The only reason he challenges religion is because he hates anything that competes with his authority to run your life." - could you elaborate on that? Why do you think so, what are your sources?

[isgoanrain]

Your government gives free healthcare to people in Guantanamo Bay, but forces poor people who have enough trouble getting enough of a check for food and shelter. People sacrifice their health for other things. That's disgusting, that's the lowest idea and this "freedom" to not pay tax and watch people DIE because of a fake lost ideal is disgusting.

[isgoanrain]

That's exactly what I said. I'm Canadian but Obama truly seems like he might just be... ::gasp:: a great president. Thank God. No pun intended.

[Fleeloo1]

With Obama...Yes we can!

[chessdawgz]

so true