Globalisation: Vietnam (The Fog of War) (2)

[agcr1]

Ugh, America is still so primitive...

[celticultural]

great movie, shitty clip, why even post it?

[proadmin1]

@ManicStreetStevO What I meant to say was that there are some extreme circumstances one can imagine - such as an attack against the Congress, where the Executive might _have_ to function as a "Unitary" executive in the fashion of the Bush and Johnson administrations. But this notion leads rather inevitably to systemic abuses - whether the general appointed staff who (In Viet Nam) acted in good faith, or as in the Office of Special Plans - where there was actual intent to deceive.

[Jellolion1]

they always try to make it sound like the turning point was the Tonkin gulf incident. The tonkin gulf incident was an inevitable outcome. The turning point was JFK's coup, the criminal enterprise that ursurped the power from the only independent voices of south vietnam, the only men strong enough to run the country and keep the communists in check -Diem and Nhu. They were both murdered in JFK's coup. That was the turning point, when the US took complete control of south vietnam and the war.

[thegoosebrain]

Gulf of Tonkin attack was all a LIE, just like the lies that Bush/Cheney gave us to get into Iraq.

[dudeyy399]

this film was really good. I actually stayed awake in my political science class watching this.

[usfansw]

One of the best documentary feature films of all time. I can't believe there are so few comments. This film should be studied by every country that sent troops to Vietnam.

[proadmin1]

There are so few comments because it keeps getting deleted by Son.

[usfansw]

The children of RSM would have had a tough time at university from their peers. There is a story there for them to tell, one day? RSM is our hero for his participation in Fog of War documentary. RIP a great man. World newspaper obituaries (that I read) last week did not report sufficiently on his efforts, especially the then unknown presence of nuclear weapons in Cuba during the crisis and how close the US came to attacking. It would appear RSM saved us from WW3.

[proadmin1]

My apologies, my comment earlier was that because the image is slightly distorted, Sony has not yet found/deleted this variant of FOW.

Regarding RSM, it's fair to say there is a degree of revisionism and spin on his part in search of Absolution, perhaps some aged Rumsfeld will try something similar 20 years from now, but I doubt it.

Furthermore, greatness aside, RSM himself says what makes it moral if you win but immoral if you loose and then counts himself & Gen. Le May as war criminals.

[usfansw]

The severity of fire bombing Japanese cities was a point I was unaware of. Also the Vietnamese belief that USA was trying to replace the French as a colonial power in Vietnam AND the US' (and allies) lack of understanding the history of Vietnam Vs. China. Personally I feel the allies owe Vietnam (and Cambodia) an apology. But it won't happen.

[proadmin1]

It occurs to me that what we probably SHOULD do, is exactly what Mr. Mc Namara suggests, looking again at the larger picture of - how does/should a superpower behave in the light of nuclear/other WMD where escalations ensue.

What is STRIKING to my mind, is how very much Bundy, Mc Namara & others had hesitation at the time, regarding their actions, whereas current players Wolfowitz et al, very certainly didn't, the system is not well geared to prevent unaccountable auto-escalation.

[proadmin1]

This film should probably be studied by any country that sends troops anywhere.

[imbrd]

@proadmin1 o no, not countries. PEOPLE should study this. Too often people fall prey to lies that "authorities/officials" make

[MPDMediaCenter]

We often get shown this at school

[blanhbla]

i take an ap us class in high school and we've been watching this and wow. i'm lucky to have a teacher that really pushes us to look at history, find the truth and question it. but he's just one in a million

[jotunPIKK]

Its impossible to even begin to understand how much this man knows and have seen.

And now he shares this with us.

It is not possible to set a number of the value of this documentary.

This should be in every history class in the world.

[MedicineWarrior]

I agree that it should be in history classes... sadly I can practically guarantee you it won't be in hardly any.

[jennadad42]

you are so right- these insights are priceless and so applicable to today. Why don't we learn from the past? Are we doomed to repeat it?

[jasoninsb]

It is amazing and sad how few see films like this. Imagine it! A former secretary of defense sharing decades of knowledge, on film, like an extensive lecture. And NO ONE watches it. What a sad statement about America.

[MedicineWarrior]

Yes, its incredibly sad and a damning indictment of our culture.

[proadmin1]

I think it's fair to say that while we as a nation should consider what we as a society can do to limit the influence of these non-governmental consultants who serve as civilian contractors who are so tragically responsible for pushing militarist viewpoints, to the exclusion of less drastic action, so whether it's William or McGeorge Bundy or Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, the problem persists endangers us today.

[ariesswede]

we shuld only go to war if the CONGRESS deems it appropriate....these resolutions are a way to circumvent this and its unconstitutional

[proadmin1]

I do agree to an extent, the President should have the right to act as is required by a situation, (consider a 9/11 where the Congress was itself decimated in the attack), however what we REALLY should guard against is the structural failure in both Viet Nam and Iraq(2), you had elements within the military industrial complex which "wanted" war or - saw war as the only real option, with Rostow, Bundy & McNamara their loyalties were never in question, Perle, Wolfowitz & Feith are another matter.

[Ixtulu]

@jasoninsb Hi - you are right. I have this whole DVD at home - I am from Vienna Austria. I was in school, as the first troops came to Vietnam in March 65. This time was so different to now. We had the Cold War. We from Western Europe lived in fear, cause the Soviet border was closed to us. Our teachers and the older generation told us, a third worldwar will began soon! Just 2 years before we had the Cuba Crises, the Kennedy assassination, the Vietnam war began......the West lived in fear!

[Thelookoutslookout]

@jasoninsb Very true. I was slack jawed watching this film. A treasure trove of incredible information.