Ehrman, 'Jesus interrupted', is great. also E.A.Wallis Budge, 'The Papyrus of Ani' (1500BCE comp O.T.800-300BCE ish), Donald A. Mackenzie,' Egyptian myth and legend', James G Frazer, 'The Golden Bough', sceptical Bible scholars: Thomas Paine, Mark Twain, Joseph Wheless, Robert Ingersoll, C.Dennis Mckinsey, Victor J Stenger, Robert M Price, Dan Barker, John W. Loftus, Richard Carrier, David Mills, Valerie Tarico, Ken Humphreys, archaeologist Israel Finkelstein
If the Bible was truly inspired by God, why does the Catholic canon differ from the Protestants? What is the real status of the Apocrypha?
Why are the following verses found in the NIV Bible but not in the KJV: Matt 17:21, 18:11; Mark 7:16; John 5:4; Acts 8:37, 15:34, 24:7; Romans 16:24? Why were they added or omitted?
@zorin85 About accusing Jesus concering taxes in Luke 23:2; they brought this up in order to persuade Pilate that Jesus was an enemy of Rome. Pilate wouldn't give a shit if they'd accused Jesus of claiming to be the Son of God; that was spiritual and not his business: He was the governor, so they used political means to convict Jesus, thus the tax issue. But when they were trying Jesus themselves, the issue was spiritual that He claimed to be the Son of God; no body talked about taxes then.
@zorin85 They'd already decided Jesus must die even before they brought Him to Pilate: was the reason they wanted Him to die taxes? NO. It was because of His claims as the Son of God: I repeat, they'd decided He must die b4 they took Him to Pilate. Matt 26:61-66. "HE IS GUILTY OF DEATH!" Read, my friend.
And don't say we're not discussing Islamic dogma; we are, cos if Islam had not denied Jesus' death and resurrection in the first place you wouldn't have been here arguing about Jesus.
@73: Jesus is guilty of death? According to whose law, if I may ask? Show me one verse from the Hebrew Bible which says it is blasphemy for someone to call himself as son of God. If u can't, u will have to ADMIT the Jews LIED about Jesus.
Are u alleging it is only Muslims who r arguing about Jesus with u Christians? How about Jews who for the past 2000 years have CONSISTENTLY denied Jesus as the Messiah & have REJECTED ur Christian dogmas about him in its entirety? Why would they do that?
@zorin85 About Jesus' prayer at Gethsamane, again you take one verse and reject the other but it's ok. Jesus' prayer of anguish was because He was about to carry the sins of the whole world upon Himself. He became sin, who knew no sin so that through Him we might be made righteous. Isaiah 59:1-2 explains what sin does. Jesus knew He was about to be seperated from His father cos of sin and that was the reason He prayed thus. But then, why didn't He run away if He didn't want to die?
@73: If Jesus was ready & willing to die, why the earnest prayer to remove the cup from him? Any person in his position who was called to self-sacrifice for some worthy cause would readily do so with courage instead of whining & crying in anguish.
Where did Jesus say 'I have become sin'? Again u r putting words into his mouth. His reluctance to die is most evident from his prayer. And what would be the point of running away if the Jews were determined to hunt him down at any cost.
@zorin85 Dude, there are over 2 billion people in the world today who have not heard the gospel and if I spend the time I spend arguing with you on intercession I will have reward in heaven. Instead, here I am spending close to three hours each time trying to show you the truth. (WASTED TIME). It's ludicrous you say Islam follows the teaching of Jesus, even after your false prophet denied the death and resurrection of Jesus for which he shall be punished with...cont
@73: Wasted time? Why r u being so negative? If Jesus thought like the way u did, he would NEVER have attracted his followers.
Denying the alleged death & resurrection of Christ does NOT in any way damage the credibility of Islam. As I've commented previously, there were even early Christians who did NOT believe in that. Just like some modern-day Christians who REJECT ur Trinity & the Hypostatic Union despite all the preachings of ur orthodox brethren. Now, why would they do that?
@Rhantis: "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave BIRTH to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. ...
This Greek philosopher's conception of the divine Trinity ... can be found in all the ancient [PAGAN] religions" (French Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, Vol. 2, p. 1467).
Did u notice that? ALL the ancient [PAGAN] religions!
@zorin85 Ok show me Trinity in any pagan religion? just saying trinity is pagan means nothing you need to prove it show me any instance of pagan trinity
@Rha: U find it hard to believe the Trinity was PAGAN in origin? Consider the scholarly evidence.
"(b) Although the notion of a divine Triad or Trinity is characteristic of the Christian religion, IT IS BY NO MEANS peculiar to it. In Indian religion e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahma, Siva, & Vishnu; & in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, & Horus, constituting a divine family, like the Father, Mother, & Son in medieval Christian pictures. (continued)
@Rha: Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality, which was suggested by Plato in the Timmoeus; e.g., in the philosophy of Plotinus the primary or original Realities are triadically represented as the Good or (in numerical symbol) the One, the Intelligence or the One-Many, and the World-Soul or the One and Many.
@73: Read Hebrews 5:7 "While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the One who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God"
What does "heard his prayers" mean (c.f. 2 Chronicles 33:13, Ezra 8:23)? God ANSWERED his prayer to be RESCUED (i.e. SAVED) from death. Which means Jesus did NOT die on the cross as God granted his prayer to be saved from death - thus validating Muslim belief.
@zorin85 Add me too as one of His contenders, because I am a son of God as well. Back to John 5:18. The Jews were angry Jesus called God His father; you quoted Ex 4:22 and I love that. If Jesus' Sonship was same as theirs why were the Jews angry at His claim? He was their own, a Jew; He wasn't a Roman or Greek, so why were they angry at Jesus since they're all 'sons'? I guess you're a man. Now, if you go somewhere and another man gets angry at you because you introduce yourself as a man...contd
@73: The One True God (John 17:3) whom Jesus worshiped (Luke 6:12) NEVER shied away from declaring His divinity in a most unambiguous term.
"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me" (Isaiah 46:9, see also 45:21).
If Jesus is God, why did he FAIL to speak such transparent language? Why keep his people dumbfounded? Where exactly did he say "I am God"? Instead, why did he cry out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34). Does God cry to God?
@73: U said that "the Jews were angry Jesus called God His father". Well, why should they get angry? Where does the Hebrew scripture forbid a Jew from calling God as his Father? Prove to me that their objection to Jesus' claim has some basis in their scripture. Otherwise, u will have to concede that they were just DESPERATE to get rid of Jesus & make him notorious in the eyes of their fellow Jews by FALSELY alleging that Jesus blasphemed. Did Jesus claim to be the only son of God? Read Matt 5:9.
@zorin85 The deal is why should He forgive sins in the first place, that did not concern Him, to the disgust of the Jews? Why didn't Abraham, Moses or your prophet or anyone else possess this same authority? You said Jesus never made forgiving sins personal; come on, why are you doing this to yourself? In a court of law how is the accused set free? It often goes thus, "The accused person is discharged and acquitted." Say a teenager does something bad and while expecting to be punished ...contd
@73: As I've stated Jesus NEVER forgave sins on a personal capacity (i.e. he NEVER said 'I forgive sins') but merely conveyed the forgiveness of sin from God. For that is why he was given the 'authority'.
If Jesus is God, does he need to be 'GIVEN authority'? Doesn't such authority belong to God as of right? Does He need to derive it from another?
R u implying that ur Bible has recorded every single word & action of Moses, Abraham, etc, faithfully? That's quite stretching a bit.
@zorin85 You make my job very easy by pointing out passages that answers your questions: thanks. You quoted 1 Tim 2:5. For there is one GOD and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ.
I guess you know a mediator is one who stands as a link-between two parties. The verse you quoted said; there is one GOD and MEDIATOR. Meaning, it's the same being here. Can't you SEE? Jesus is both God and man. Not just a human mediator; He is God too. He EVER LIVES to make intercessions for us.
@73: I must COMPLIMENT u on ur VAIN attempt to obfuscate 1 Tim 2:5. Pretty SLOPPY. I expected something better.
For starters, where exactly does it say "Jesus is both God and man"? Who is "one mediator between God and men"? The GOD Jesus? The MAN-GOD Jesus? The GOD-MAN Jesus? Nothing of that sort. It simply puts it as "the MAN Christ Jesus". Just the MAN. So Christ was just a mediator - NOT God Himself.
@73: Christ said his doctrine was NOT his own. John 7:16: “My teaching is NOT my own. It comes from Him who sent me.” Christ could not have said this if he were God because the doctrine would have been his.
Jesus and God have SEPARATE wills. Luke 22:42: “NOT my will but yours be done” (c.f. John 5:30). How then could he be God?
Do u now understand why Jews, Muslims & even Christians have GREAT DIFFICULTY in accepting Jesus as God?
@zorin85 Do u now understand why Jews, Muslims & even Christians have GREAT DIFFICULTY in accepting Jesus as God? Because there's NO proof that Jesus is/was devine. His divinity was voted on around 325 ce. and he BARELY became divine?
@zorin85 About John 5:28-29 which you quoted do you at least believe that Jesus Himself will call Muhammed and all dead people up from their graves? Once again I Tim 2:5 answers you; in fact I'm glad you brought it up cos it asnwers almost all the questions. As man Jesus acknolewledges His dependence on His father; Yet in that same passage He said at His voice all in the grave shall come forth. Is that how a man speaks? Again, thanks for bringing up 1 Tim 2:5 Man and God.
@73: Christ made a DISTINCTION between speaking against him and speaking against the Holy Spirit. Luke 12:10: “And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
If both the Holy Spirit and Christ were co-equal persons in one God, then there would be no difference between speaking against Christ and speaking against the Holy Spirit. But obviously, it DOES. Why?
@zorin85 About God being able to do all things show me one case that was brought before Jesus which He did not solve? And by Jesus saying with God all things are possible it does not mean God will solve all problems. Wasn't there a case where God said He repented for creating man? Search for it. Ignorant people use this to insult God that He did not know the future that man would become evil. If He knew the future He'd have known man would become evil and not say He repented.
@73: Here is another COGENT PROOF that Jesus was NEVER God.
Who is the ONLY TRUE God according to Christ? Read John 17:3.
What do u find in common when u read 2 Cor 1:3, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Thess 1:2, 2 John 1:3, Gal 1:1, James 3:9, 1 Tim 1:2 & 2 Tim 1:2? U guessed it. God the Father or God our Father.
Which means, among the early Christians, God is synonymous ONLY with the Father. Now, show me a single verse which proclaims God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. Ask the Holy Spirit to assist u.
@73: Common sense dictates that the fact Jesus prayed to God is sure proof Jesus is NOT God, as God doesn't pray. Where does Jesus claim to pray in his human nature? And more interestingly, to whom did Jesus instruct his disciples to pray?
"This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven ..." (Matt 6:9, see also 1 Pet 1:17).
Where did Jesus command others to pray to himself or to the Holy Spirit? Show me where he said "pray to the Son"? Again, u LACK proof from ur scripture.
@73: When the disciples prayed to God in Acts, they called King David God’s “servant” (4:25). Later in that same prayer they called Jesus “your holy servant” (4:30). It is very obvious that the first century disciples did NOT believe Christ was God, but thought of him, like David, as a servant of God (c.f. Matt. 12:18 and Acts 3:26, which also refer to Jesus as God’s “servant”).
How could a servant of God be God Himself? Does that make sound, healthy sense? Christology DEFIES human reason.
@73: 1 Corinthians 3:23 makes it clear that God is GREATER than Christ, just as Christ is GREATER than we are: “…and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God” (NASB).
Where does the Bible say Christ is God? What did Jesus teach his followers in Matt 6:6, 6:9, Luke 11:2? PRAY to the Father. Where exactly did he tell them to pray to the Son? Please show me.
@73: U want me to show u one case that was brought before Jesus which he did not solve? Try Mark 10:40.
To repent means to regret for a mistake or sin committed or to demonstrate remorse. To claim that God repented (Gen 6:6, 1 Sam 15:35) is UTTERLY BLASPHEMOUS & does NOT befit the majesty of God who is Omniscient, does NOT make mistakes & is fully aware of His actions & consequences.
Humans r to make sincere repentance to God which He accepts in His mercy. That's what Islam teaches.
@zorin85 About Matt 9:8 I took time to patiently show you the reason for the rejoicing. vs8 ...when the mulitudes saw IT...they marvelled. I repeat; when they saw IT...(THE MAN AROSE) they praised God. It did not say when Jesus said "your sins are forgiven," they marvelled.
You said why not all the teachers; but why would some at all? Ok. Luke 7: 49...AND THEY that sat at meat with Him..." This time it's not SOME...you may twist this as well. Tell me why didn't Muhammed forgive sins.
@73: The "IT" in Matt 9:8 also refers to the FACT that the man arose AFTER his sins were forgiven (by God - NOT by Jesus personally) & he was healed. Which means "IT" refers to a collective incident involving the forgiveness of sin & the healing. '
Why would some at all' because they were the critics of Jesus who were plotting his downfall initially. But apparently having witnessed the miracle they changed their minds & praised God (NOT Jesus!) for granting such authority unto men.
@73: Do u think that is not possible? Nicodemus was a Pharisee (John 3:1) who became enamoured with Jesus (7:50-51) & so was Joseph of Arimathea (Mark 15:43). Though part of the Jewish elite, they NEVER alleged Jesus of blasphemy & they NEVER regarded Jesus as God as well.
Which means NOT every Jew was looking forward to destroy Jesus but only among the hypocritical elites who feel their status quo being threatened by this young rabbi & itinerant preacher from Galilee.
@zorin85 James 5:15 is answer to Luke 24:27 repentance and remission of sins is only possible in the name of Jesus. You quote Acts 2:22 why not read down to vs 24 that says He was crucified and raised from the dead, which your prophet and Islam denies? I don't even know where you stand. You read the Bible, believe one thing yet turn a blind away on those areas the expose Muhammed as a false prophet for denying the death of Jesus.
@73: Ur belief in the alleged sinlessness of Jesus is also CONTRADICTED by ur scripture.
Luke 3:3 promotes "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" Which means only the sinners need to undergo that ritual. Those without sin need not bother. Then why did Jesus do so? "When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too" (3:21, see also Matt 3:13).
If he was sinless (as Christians allege), why undergo baptism? Or was he just play-acting to impress others?
@73: Do u think only Muslims REJECT the so-called death & resurrection of Christ? Have u not heard of early Christian sects who shared similar sentiment? Read Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew.
In other words, there NEVER was a consensus on this matter even among the early Christians. Moreover, how is "raised from the dead" to be understood? Literally? When Paul boasted "I DIE ever day" (1 Cor 15:31) r we supposed to apply a literal interpretation?
@zorin85 I forgive your sins and your sins are forgiven, I answered the question earlier.
Put the rope around the goat's neck and put the goat's neck around the rope what is different? You metioned my quoting John. We talked more about Matt 9 than any other passage; why complain? That is the beauty of the Bible; different authors corroborating the same story and not one man coming out of the blues claiming he has revelations from God. How can anyone trust people like that?
@73: put the goat's neck around the rope? What r u talking about?
different authors corroborating the same story? Allow me to explode another MYTH regarding ur Bible.
Matthew, supposedly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, informs us in 27:9 "Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet ..." The PROBLEM here is it was NEVER spoken by Jeremiah at all but Zechariah (11:12-13). Why did the Holy Spirit MISLEAD poor Matthew?
@73: If that's too hard to digest, here's another. When listing Jesus' genealogy, Matt claimed Jacob to be the father of Joseph (the husband of Mary, the mother of Christ) in 1:16. But Luke 3:23 paints a DIFFERENT picture by claiming the father of Joseph to be Heli instead.
@73: Beauty of the Bible? I'm sure you'd change ur mind after reading the hilarious incident in Matt 21:7.
"They brought the donkey AND the colt, placed their cloaks on THEM, and Jesus sat on THEM."
Jesus riding on TWO animals simultaneously? Like a circus acrobat? Wouldn't he be the laughingstock of the community? Is this how the evangelists seek to honour 'God's only son'?
@73: Prophet Muhammad did not exactly come out of the blue for his noble ancestry & impeccable character was well established among his peers.
Even before attaining prophethood he was known as Al Ameen (the Trustworthy), a rare honour among a community of idolaters who indulged in all manner of wickedness & perversion.
That was why his prophetic mission was finally made victorious by God, even after the initial rejection & persecution of his followers.
@zorin85 You mentioned John 8: You rightly said Jesus advised the woman to leave her sinful lifestyle; yes, anyone can say that. In fact, I have given people such advise. But here is what Jesus said before He said that? "...NEITHER DO I CONDEMN YOU...." What is His business? Was He her husband she cheated on? Why should He say He didn't condemn her? Once again only God has power to forgive sins, because all sins, even against others, is sin against God.
@73: Why did Jesus say "neither do I condemn u"? Because she was dragged to Jesus' presence to have her condemned by him & punished according to Mosaic law.
But having realised that her case did NOT breach Lev 20:10 (the law clearly stipulates BOTH the adulterer & adulteress be punished - & NOT just one party), Jesus acquits her.
@73: U claim that "all sins, even against others, is sin against God". But is God the only one to forgive sins? Can ordinary humans grant forgiveness? What did Jesus teach?
"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times? Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times" (Matt 18:21-22)
@zorin85 In John 8 the poor adulteress was set free by Jesus; don't you see the symbolic meaning? The law condemns us, but Jesus shows us mercy. Also, why don't you go to a prostitute somewhere and tell her, NEITHER DO I CONDEMN YOU, GO AND SIN NO MORE? No man can say this to a fellow man. Try it let's see what she'll do to you. Also Jesus did not ADVISE her, He commanded her to sin no more. He said the same thing to the man in John 5:14. The 10 Commandments are not 10 Advice; they are Commands!
@73: Jesus would have punished her for her sins but for the fact that the condition laid down in Lev 20:10 & Deut 22:22 was NOT fulfilled. That is why he taunted her accusers with the words "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her". They all know they had sinned against God by conveniently catching the woman "in the act" (John 8:4) but letting go her male partner.
@73: (continued) And where does John 8 claim she is a prostitute? Why do u defame that poor lady? R u implying that every adulteress is necessarily a prostitute? How naive can u get.
Jesus commanded her to sin no more? Surely u r LYING (again!). Show me one version of the Bible in John 8:11 which says Jesus commanded her. Why do u insist in putting words into the mouth of Christ?
@zorin85 Muhammed! About your prophet, what can I say? Neither Jesus, nor Moses, nor Isaiah, spoke about him. I'm sorry to inform you he preached a different gospel when he denied Jesus as the Son of God (Islam says God does not beget, yet you quoted many passages that say God has sons, so...) and the Bible says such a one is accursed for preaching another gospel. Muhammed was deceived by the Old Serpent.
You refer me to a Catholic Priest to validate your prophet; quite pathetic.
@73: Neither Jesus, nor Moses, nor Isaiah, spoke about Muhammad? How would u know since u never bothered to examine the scriptural evidence presented in Father Keldani's book?
Why don't u gather some courage to do so instead of jumping into some ill-begotten & misguided conclusion? Didn't Jesus say "the truth will set u free"? How does a former Catholic priest offend u?
@73: The authentic revelation from God to the Prophet Muhammad affirms the true gospel which Jesus preached, & NOT the corrupted & fabricated version which Christians parade as the New Testament. Islam exalts the status & teachings of the historical Jesus & NOT the Christ of myth promoted by Christendom. Read 'The Changing Faces of Jesus' by Dr. Geza Vermes (another ex-Catholic priest).
@73: Do u think only Catholic priests like Idris Tawfiq embrace Islam? Have u not heard of Protestant pastors & Evangelical ministers making the same conscious decision?
Perhaps I should introduce them to u. Google Dr. Jerald Dirks, Sheikh Yusuf Estes, Kenneth L. Jenkins, Benjamin Chavis, Jenifer Harrell.
Or better still - watch their videos on the Deen Show.
@zorin85 Friend, it took me close to 3 hours to reply ur mails and boy, I think I have tried my best to show you Jesus is your saviour and without Him all men are lost forever. You're into Religious Studies full-time; great. I am not interested in winning a debate; your soul means more to me and that is the reason I spent so much time replying you. I had to skip other actvities today. I hope someday you'll see the truth that Jesus indeed died for your sins and rose again for your justification.
@73: In Islamic theology, God is NOT in the business of begetting sons or daughters - as u find rampant among the PAGAN deities like Zeus, Shiva, etc. Ur Christology which has been deeply CORRUPTED by Hellenistic philosophy that gave birth to PAGAN-inspired dogmas like the Trinity, Hypostatic Union, etc is thoroughly repudiated in Islam, which remains faithful to Jesus' original teachings.
Jesus was God who became man Zeus had sex with a woman to have children there is a difference also the Trinity or Hypostatic union are nowhere to be found in Hellenistic philosophy at all now i will ask you a simple question show me any hellenistic religion writing that is dated to the time of Jesus that has the trinity or hypostatic union
@Rha: If God did appear as Jesus who was seen & touched by many, why does 1 Tim 1:17 describe an essential attribute of God as being INVISIBLE? Do u know what invisible means? Was Jesus invisible to his followers?
How could Jesus be God as God is 'immortal' but according to ur belief Jesus DIED on the cross? How could someone who DIED be regarded as being immortal? Do u know what that word means?
Why does 1 Tim 6:16 describe God as "whom NO ONE has seen or can see" if Jesus was seen by many?
@zorin85 Ok simple God is spirit Jesus was Fully spiritually God so when people saw jesus they see his humanity hence why Jesus is Fully God and Fully Man
Jesus died once and resurrected God being immoral means his spirit never dies since God is spirit and God died physically not Spiritually hence why our human spirits are immortal but not our physical bodies unless you think we cease to exist when we die
again because God is spirit can you see a spirit? no you can not
@Rha: U still don't seem to get it, do u? Dictionary defines immortal as being 'NOT liable or subject to death'
When God is described as being immortal (1 Tim 1:17) it simply means God does NOT experience death in ANY FORM. Death is something CONTRARY to God's nature & essence. One who does experiences death (whether physical or spiritual) CANNOT be immortal. Simple logic.
Which is why NO human can become God & NEITHER does God become human. He is IMMORTAL, we (including Jesus) are NOT!
@Rha: 1 Tim 1:17 does NOT merely say only the spirit of God is immortal but God Himself is immortal - which means He is NOT subject to death, unlike humans. That is what distinguishes humans with God - we r subject to death but God is NOT. Only in PAGAN traditions do gods die like mortals. Since u believe Jesus died & rose again, he CANNOT be immortal, hence NOT God.
So then how can heaven and hell exist if humans are not immortal something in a human is immortal it does not die sine we go to heaven or hell when we die that is our spirit not our physical bodies same with jesus who was spiritually God was immortal
@Rha: U still don't get it? Let me ask u again. What is the dictionary definition of immortal? Not liable or subject to death. Which means ONLY God qualifies to be called as immortal as ONLY God does NOT experience death in any form.
Where does the Bible claim humans r immortal? Prove it.
Anyone who dies (whether physical or spiritual) does NOT deserve to be called immortal. Hence, Jesus is NOT God.
@Rha: If u believe Jesus died in the flesh but not in the spirit (& that makes him God), how does that make him special in contrast to other humans? Isn't that what happens to every human who experiences death?
It is our body that ultimately perishes but our spirit lives on. But can we regard ourselves as being immortal? Does the Bible claim humans r immortal? It does NOT - that honour is God's ALONE, NOT Jesus. Why? Because Jesus was a CREATED being but God ALONE is the Creator.
That is the whole point of jesus being Fully man he is Fully man like anybody else it makes no sense for God to be come man and be different than a normal humans
@Rha: That's the whole point here. Jesus is ONLY man & NOT God. He was FULLY man & ZERO God. Do u catch my drift?
If Jesus was God, he would have spoken plainly & unambiguously as the One True God did in Isaiah 46:9 "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me." See also 45:5.
Did Jesus speak such manifest & emphatic language? Why didn't he? Was he not sure of his own identity?
@Rha: Let us apply 1 Tim 1:17 to Jesus. Was he eternal? Eternal is defined as "without beginning or end; one who is neither born nor dies". According to ur belief, Jesus was BORN on the night of Dec 25 & he DIED on the cross in his adulthood. Which means Jesus CANNOT be eternal as he experienced birth & death.
Moreover he also confessed ignorance of that day or hour (Mark 13:32) which means he CANNOT be eternal. Only God is. (continued above)
@Rha: Was Jesus immortal? I have proven to u he CANNOT be as he had experienced death. Only God is FREE from such tribulations.
Unlike God who is invisible & was NEVER seen at all, Jesus was seen by many & even Christians r fond of drawing pictures of him. Which means Jesus is NOT God as he was visible to all & didn't share the quality of being invisible. Only God is. (continued above)
@Rha: Who is the only God mentioned in 1 Tim 1:17? Jesus? Did Jesus call himself as the only God? He NEVER did. Instead, this is what he said in John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." Did u notice that? "You" & NOT "me". That makes a whole lot of difference, does it not?
1 Tim 1:17 has NOTHING to do with Jesus which means he is NOT God.
@zorin85 You did not answer my question show me a hellenistic writing in the first century that has any christian idea like the Trinity, christian baptizm, communion etc
@zorin85 Where did jesus say i am God? he called himself son of man(Daniel 7:9) and son of God in connection with adam being called the son of God hence jesus humanity descendant of adam
John 8:58 proves jesus is God he called himself Yahweh so in the same chapter jesus calls himself God and Man also john 20:28 jesus accepts being called God
the Hypostatic union is affirmed by jesus himself who called himself both man and God
@Rha: How does Jesus calling himself 'son of man' make him God? Numbers 23:19 specifically states that God is NOT “a son of man". Mind u, it doesn't merely say God is not LIKE a son of man.
Christ made a DISTINCTION between speaking against him & speaking against the Holy Spirit in Luke 12:10. If the Son & the Holy Spirit are 2 persons in the same God, why draw the distinction?
@zorin85 you have to be joking seriously? not ever instance of son of man means its referring to God you have to look at the thing called context please look that up in a dictionary now go read Daniel 7:9
the Trinity is one God who exist in three distinct persons that means they have different personalities they are not the same persons
@Rha: It is u who need to put on ur glasses & study the context in Daniel 7:9. Where does it mention God? Why do u keep assuming things without solid proof?
1 Cor 3:23 makes it clear that God is GREATER than Christ, just as Christ is greater than we are: “…and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God” (NASB). If God is GREATER than Christ, how could Christ be God? Isn't that a question of simple common sense?
@Rha: U said "the Trinity is one God who exist in three distinct persons". U seriously believe that? Let me hear it from the lips of Jesus himself if u wish me to believe in it. What did he teach u in Mark 12:29?
"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE." Did u get that? ONE! Does that sound like three-in-one in ur ears? Who is the ONLY true God according to Jesus? Check out John 17:3. What does that tell u?
@Rha: Was Jesus the only person to be called son of God in the Bible? Read Genesis 6:2, 4; Exodus 4:22; Jeremiah 31:9; Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7 which talks about other sons of God.
Does calling someone son of God make him God? If that's the case, would u say Adam is God as he was called son of God in Luke 3:38?
What does son of God really mean? Read Mark 15:39 & contrast it with Luke 23:47.
The Christian understanding of that term stands at ODD with its true meaning as the Bible explains.
@Rha: In John 8:58, Jesus purportedly said "before Abraham was born, I am!". I am .. what? God? Did he say that? Why do u assume things?
The man born blind that Jesus healed in John 9:9 was not claiming to be God, and he said “I am the man,” and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., “I am.” Does that make him God? Paul also used the same phrase of himself in Acts 26:29. Is he God? If Jesus is God, why didn't he say it quite PLAINLY that "I am God"? Was he shy? Unsure of himself?
Wow i can not believe i have to explain this when you say you are before your ancestors that means you are saying you existed before them now how can jesus exist before his ancestors if he is not God?
@Rha: It's a pity u r unable to discern the words of Jesus in John 8:58. Let me explain. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did NOT actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of “existing” in God’s foreknowledge. (continued above)
@Rha: Verse 56 is accurately translated in the King James Version, which says: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. That is called pre-existence.
@Rha: Let me ask u. Where do u think u existed prior to be born into this world? In the knowledge of God. So did I & so do other people who have lived, r living and will be born in the future. We all have a pre-existence & came into this world as God has ordained.
Now, just because we had existence prior to our physical birth does that make us God(s)? If u believe that, u r pretty deluded. Ur own Bible DEBUNKS u.
@Rha: What did God say to his prophet Jeremiah in 1:5? "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Can u explain what it means in the context of pre-existence? Perhaps then u will be able to understand clearly the words of Jesus in John 8:58.
Jesus called the Father, “the ONLY God” (John 5:44). The New American Standard Version goes so far as to translate it as “the one and only God.” Why did he say that?
@Rha: In order for ur argument that Jesus’ “I am” statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement MUST be equivalent with God’s “I am” statement in Exodus 3:14.
However, the two statements are VERY DIFFERENT. While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become.” (continued above)
@zorin85 You are confused the disciples of jesus were using the greek septuagint when they were quoting jesus and the Greek Old Testament in Exodus 3:14 has I am
@99minerkc That is incorrect since in the Gospels the disciples of jesus quote from the septuagint which is the greek old testament how can they quote it if they did not know it and also in the first century greek was the linga franca that means everybody spoke greek in fact there is an inscription found near the temple in greek, So if there was greek speaking people in israel obviously the disciples spoke greek
@99minerkc I know i didn't hence thats why i said i can back up my claim not i did back up my claim now as i said there was greek incriptions in the location of the disciples of Jesus so that means greek was prominent in that location which means the disciples of Jesus had to be able to speak greek
@Rhantismos23 I never have and don't deny that there was Greek inscriptions. My arguement is in regards to what Jesus and his disciples "spoke" which was Aramaic and Hebrew(primarily Hebrew though). If you're referring to the gospels well there is no evidence that they were written by the disciples and we know Jesus DID NOT WRITE A SINGLE LETTER in any transcript. So, I would very much like to see your evidence that Jesus and his disciples "SPOKE" in Greek. Thanks.
@Rhantismos23 I'm not asking for "OPINION" as anyone can provide false ones. I asked for "EVIDENCE which you continue to refuse to provide YET you claimed you could provide it. Hmm.... interesting. Are you going to continue to provide opinion or will you step up to the plate and give evidence to support your claims??!!
@99minerkc I have given evidence you just do not accept the evidence the evidence is clear Jesus and his Disciples are Merchants they obviously had to know Greek
@Rhantismos23 Why ? Jesus (peace be upon him) never addressed or commanded his disciples to take Israelite teachings to Greeks. Remember what's stated in Matthew 10:5: These twelve Jesus (pbuh) sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go NOT into the way of the GENTILES, and unto any city of the SAMARITIANS, enter ye NOT; but rather go to the LOST sheep of the house of ISRAEL. (in other words, they were to go to their own brethren to reinterate the teachings of Moses-not gentiles).
@amuslima99 Really ok in that same book Matthew 24:14 Jesus said "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Now i will ask you a question the Quran says "the Torah and the Injeel have been corrupted" My question to you is Why didn't God protect his messages, Did God not care for his message or was he not able
@Rhantismos23 The audience they were addressed to, in this case, Israelite Tribes, were given uncorrupted scripture--the message of God was first given as a revelation and conveyed through Angel Gabriel(Jibreel) to whatever Prophet the revelation was sent to. Then that Prophet conveyed the message to his followers. Later the revelations were documented. Later, despite God's warning not to, men changed passages of scripture to benefit themselves. And there never seemed any human pun
@amuslima99 Ok so then the quran is corrupted, since you said God never said to write it down and the Quran according to the hadith was written down since all the early companions of mohammed who fully knew the quran died. Im assuming you have not fully memorized the quran that means you are disobeying God
@Rhantismos23 -ishment in place for doing this. Like receiving a beating, imprisonment, flogging, exile, etc. so people did it at will. Men don't always agree to follow the commandments. But, I've noticed that unitarians, those who found fought we the Trinity and publized it in their documentations-their works were destroyed, they experience imprisonment, punishment, etc. And Jesus (peace be upon him) himself in Mark 12:29 spoke of worshipping One Lord. (the First commandment).
@Rhantismos23, Not that Jews believe in unitarian... they were monotheistic. About the only people that were. I am sorry, something is wrong with characters remaining. I'll get back.
@amuslima99 So are we we are monotheists trinitarians and the OT is the same way since God said " Let us make man in our image ...... Then God made man in him image", " man has become like one of us" Why is God speaking to himself in the plural and why does it say God made man in his(Singular) image
@Rhantismos23 He just does...I've heard it call a plural of respect. You know, Queen Victoria spoke like that too. "We are not amused." But do you honestly think God Almighty has private parts? A nose? Body parts like He has created for human beings? To suggest He has these body parts is to suggest that He too is depended on something else in order to breathe. You honestly think God needs to relieve Himself of urine? Remember Jesus asked, "Why do thou callest me Good? Only God is.
@amuslima99 Dude Plural of Respect did not come in to existance when Moses wrote Genesis in 1500BC lol that came in the middle ages, So plural of Respect can not be it
No God almighty does not have private parts since God Almighty is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit only Jesus who is the second person in the trinity became a human
@Rhantismos23 I always find it puzzling that here in Mark 12:29 for instance, where there is actual dialogue of Jesus (peace be upon him) stating that the Lord OUR GOD is one Lord and still people view him as part of the Trinity. Where did Jesus say he was second, or any part of a Trinity? Why did he not state it at this point while speaking with the scribe? Does Jesus (pbuh) have private parts?! There nothing or no one like God. Jesus was born of a human woman. He's human.
@amuslima99 I agree with you there is nothing or no one like Jesus, Do you not know what Christians Believe? We Believe what Jesus said He is both Son of Man(God) and Son of GOD(Human) So believe Jesus is Both God and Man
@Rhantismos23 "Why Callest Thou Me Good? there is None Good but ONE, that is God... Matt. 19:16-17. " That the Sons of God saw the daughters of men... " ...when the Sons of God came in unto the daughters of men..." Genesis 6:2 and 4. "...Thou (O David) art My Son; this day have I Begotten thee." Psalms 2:7 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God." Romans 8:14 "...and Ephraim is my Firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9.
@amuslima99 Again your assuming Unitarianism, Show me that God is not a Trinity in the bible? Do you not know what context means? read the passages in context Clearly Jesus calling himself the Son of God means he was God, Read the Context
You SHOW me ! It says in more than one place in the Bible that God is ONE ! Now, you SHOW me where it describes GOD as THREE GODS. Because Jesus (pbuh) is NOT God. He didn't pray to HIMSELF in Gethsemane ! He can't be INFINITE and FINITE at the SAME time. The scribe didn' call him GOD. If we go by what you said, "Jesus calling himself the Son of God means he was God..." it is the same as you calling yourself your father's son means you are HIM ! Come on. Does that make any SENSE ?
@amuslima99 Ummm We do not believe in Three Gods, the Quran is wrong we do not believe in three Gods therefore the Quran is not from God or God does not know what we believe i will let you choice which one. Trinity is One God who exist in three persons which are Father, Son,Holy Spirit which Jesus spoke about in Matthew 28:19. Jesus did not pray to himself he pray to himself in Gethsemane he prayed to the Father
@Rhantismos23 What are you talking about? What do think a Trinity is? Who said the Quran said anything about three gods? I told you to find in the Bible where it describes God as THREE GODS. Nothing was mentioned about Quran. I told you all along we worship ONE GOD. You believe that Jesus can be a Son of God and God. And I know Jesus (pbuh) prayed to GOD in Gethsemane. But you said Jesus was ALSO God. lol.
@amuslima99 Lol you obviously did no follow that argument maybe you should reread that argument try to keep up please. The Quran says the Trinity is Three Gods since it says "Do not say Three" that is obviously talking about the Trinity, i will write this in caps so you can understand WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN THREE GODS WE BELIEVE IN ONE GOD WHO EXISTS IN THREE PERSONS. The Quran says we believe in Three Gods that is wrong
actually you can since if you are infinite you can be finite if you want to since you have the option if you do not have the option then you are Finite Humans do not have the option therefore we are finite but if we did we are infinite. Since God can limit himself if he wanted to. The Scribes never called Jesus the Messiah So then by that standard the Quran is wrong.
@Rhantismos23 We could never be infinite ! Infinite means to be UNBOUNDED or UNLIMITED. Human beings have limitations. We can do some things. We can't do everything like God. God has ALL POWER. We have limited POWER.
Humans do not have the option therefore we are finite but Jesus had the option and he became finite if you become finite that means you are infinite, since if you can choose to be limited then you are unlimited same way if you can tie yourself then you are untied
@amuslima99 Jesus is unlimited and unbounded because he bounded himself Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.
@amuslima99 The scribes did not call Jesus the Messiah either so that means by your standard the Quran is wrong and Jesus is not the Messiah if you want to go by what the scribes say about Jesus
@amuslima99 Lol you can not answer the question ok i will move on, I already proved that Jesus spoke Greek and that Jews spoke Greek but i will prove it again, John 12:20 Disciples Speak to Greeks Now do i have to prove that the Greeks spoke Greek to? please Read a History Book almost everybody in the world spoke Greek Look it up in wikipedia
@Rhantismos23 I was speaking, dear one, about the scribe in Mark 12:29 who asked Jesus (pbuh) quote: "Which is the first commandment of all?" And after Jesus (pbuh) answered his question, this SCRIBE said: "Well, Master, thou hast said the TRUTH; for there is ONE God; and there is NONE OTHER THAN HE; and to LOVE Him with ALL the HEART, and with ALL UNDERSTANDING,and with ALL THE SOUL, AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH..." You should regard this as the most important commandment.
@amuslima99 and we believe in one God i suggest you read Forgotten Trinity by James White if you actually want to know what the Trinity is Since it looks like you got your information about the Trinity from Muslims instead of Christian Scholars.
@amuslima99 Again you do not know what you are talking about My Father and I have the same being but not the same persons meaning i am not my Father but i am like my Father in being so that means Jesus is like the Father but not the Father they have the same being same as Human Father and Son they both are humans
@amuslima99 If you are a seeker of truth i suggest you read Forgotten Trinity by James White if you actually want to know what the Trinity is and why Your God did not understand what the Trinity was
@Rhantismos23 When did I say I was a SEEKER of anything ? I am a muslim. This started because YOU said obviously Jesus (pbuh) spoke GREEK ! A claim you have yet to PROVE !
@amuslima99 once again i will prove it the third time John 12:20-50 Greeks speak to the disciples and they asked them if they can speak to Jesus now if Jesus or his disciples did not speak Greek how can they speak to the Greeks?
@amuslima99 Also since we are on the topic of the Trinity why does the Quran say mary is in the Trinity Surah 5:116 it Allah asks Jesus if said to take Himself and Mary as Gods? Jesus is only God in the Trinity but Mary is not God at all
@Rhantismos23 Sorry, I didn't see you statement about Jesus being human until after I posted this. Where did Jesus (pbuh) address Greeks ? Where is evidence he or his disciples spoke Greek? When did he go to Greece or where did the Greeks have dialogue with him? Jesus was a practising Jew. He never stopped living his life as a Jew, (from the tribe of Judah). If Greeks followed Jesus, they would have to live as Jews as well. Israelites worshipped One God. Moses (Levi tribe) did.
@amuslima99 In John 10:20-22 Greeks came to Jesus disciples and they asked them if they can speak to Jesus Obviously if Jesus did not know Greek how could the Greeks firstly talk to his disciples or even ask them if they can talk to Jesus. Matthew 8:8 Jesus speaks to a Roman who spoke Greek and Latin, Matthew 27:1 Jesus speaks to Pontius Pilate who also spoke Greek and or Latin,
@Rhantismos23 You are the one who said Jesus (pbuh) obviously spoke Greek remember? Just because Jesus (pbuh) spoke to Pontius Pilate who "also spoke Greek and or Latin" which are completely different languages, doesn't mean Jesus spoke it . Again, he would have no need to address Greeks about the teachings of Israelites.
@amuslima99 What? then what language did Jesus use to speak to Pontius Pilate lol Do you not know the difference between speaking Greek and teaching Greeks? you can speak a language and not teach Greek or even address them. Once again Greek in that time was the everyday language that means everybody spoke it
@Rhantismos23 You tell ME ! DO YOU KNOW ? LOL. This is YOUR theory ! PROVE IT WAS THE EVERYDAY LANGUAGE...WHERE DID YOU OBTAIN THIS INFORMATION? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS QUESTION? Pontius Pilate was NOT even GREEK !
@amuslima99 i already proved it but i will prove it again John 12:20-21 says Greeks came to speak to Jesus and they asked Jesus Disciples to see Jesus Now if Jesus and his disciples did not know Greek how can the Greeks ask the disciples if they can speak to Jesus if Jesus and his Disciples did not know Greek, I obtained this information from Historians i suggest you look up in Wikipedia
@Rhantismos23 What if the Greeks spoke Aramaic? From what I read, all it states in John 12:20 is that CERTAIN Greeks among them came up and worshipped at the feast. No where is there stated that Greeks spoke to Jesus in Aramaic (Jesus' language) or Greek. There is nothing about Jesus specifically talking to CERTAIN Greeks about anything of Judaism. Jesus lived his life as a Jewish man, as I stated before. And all Israelites were monotheistic. Recognize and worshipped One God.
@Rhantismos23 Look, I have said enough. If you have questions, go to a minister, or continue to listen to Bart Ehrman videos or go back to Wikipedia...whatever. I hope you find your answers and have a very happy life as a Christian, as I will have as a Muslim. Peace to You !
@Rhantismos23 Where did you get this information that Greek is like english to Jews. I'd like to read it. But whether it is a fact or not, Israelite teachings were not meant for Gentiles. Just like it's stated in the Bible, or why is it stated NOT to go to them in the NT.
@amuslima99 How many times do i have to post it? Matthew 28:19 go in to all the world( which includes the gentiles) and preach the Gospel. What do you think all the world means? Go read a book on Alexander he took the Greek Language to all the known world its a known fact
God elected and raised up men to keep the record...if people don't want to believe and accept it then that's your nature, go to hell then.
Erap1muzik 3 weeks ago in playlist James White debates
@maryann799 I don't love him but I love his debating abilities !
amuslima99 3 weeks ago
post the rest please
XSC3 3 months ago 2
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Ehrman, 'Jesus interrupted', is great. also E.A.Wallis Budge, 'The Papyrus of Ani' (1500BCE comp O.T.800-300BCE ish), Donald A. Mackenzie,' Egyptian myth and legend', James G Frazer, 'The Golden Bough', sceptical Bible scholars: Thomas Paine, Mark Twain, Joseph Wheless, Robert Ingersoll, C.Dennis Mckinsey, Victor J Stenger, Robert M Price, Dan Barker, John W. Loftus, Richard Carrier, David Mills, Valerie Tarico, Ken Humphreys, archaeologist Israel Finkelstein
zytigon 5 months ago
If the Bible was truly inspired by God, why does the Catholic canon differ from the Protestants? What is the real status of the Apocrypha?
Why are the following verses found in the NIV Bible but not in the KJV: Matt 17:21, 18:11; Mark 7:16; John 5:4; Acts 8:37, 15:34, 24:7; Romans 16:24? Why were they added or omitted?
Something for our Christian friends to ponder.
zorin85 6 months ago
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@zorin85 Jesus did not have the dictionary in mind when He called Himself "Begotten".
73geneva 4 months ago
@zorin85 About accusing Jesus concering taxes in Luke 23:2; they brought this up in order to persuade Pilate that Jesus was an enemy of Rome. Pilate wouldn't give a shit if they'd accused Jesus of claiming to be the Son of God; that was spiritual and not his business: He was the governor, so they used political means to convict Jesus, thus the tax issue. But when they were trying Jesus themselves, the issue was spiritual that He claimed to be the Son of God; no body talked about taxes then.
73geneva 4 months ago
@zorin85 They'd already decided Jesus must die even before they brought Him to Pilate: was the reason they wanted Him to die taxes? NO. It was because of His claims as the Son of God: I repeat, they'd decided He must die b4 they took Him to Pilate. Matt 26:61-66. "HE IS GUILTY OF DEATH!" Read, my friend.
And don't say we're not discussing Islamic dogma; we are, cos if Islam had not denied Jesus' death and resurrection in the first place you wouldn't have been here arguing about Jesus.
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: Jesus is guilty of death? According to whose law, if I may ask? Show me one verse from the Hebrew Bible which says it is blasphemy for someone to call himself as son of God. If u can't, u will have to ADMIT the Jews LIED about Jesus.
Are u alleging it is only Muslims who r arguing about Jesus with u Christians? How about Jews who for the past 2000 years have CONSISTENTLY denied Jesus as the Messiah & have REJECTED ur Christian dogmas about him in its entirety? Why would they do that?
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 About Jesus' prayer at Gethsamane, again you take one verse and reject the other but it's ok. Jesus' prayer of anguish was because He was about to carry the sins of the whole world upon Himself. He became sin, who knew no sin so that through Him we might be made righteous. Isaiah 59:1-2 explains what sin does. Jesus knew He was about to be seperated from His father cos of sin and that was the reason He prayed thus. But then, why didn't He run away if He didn't want to die?
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: If Jesus was ready & willing to die, why the earnest prayer to remove the cup from him? Any person in his position who was called to self-sacrifice for some worthy cause would readily do so with courage instead of whining & crying in anguish.
Where did Jesus say 'I have become sin'? Again u r putting words into his mouth. His reluctance to die is most evident from his prayer. And what would be the point of running away if the Jews were determined to hunt him down at any cost.
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 Dude, there are over 2 billion people in the world today who have not heard the gospel and if I spend the time I spend arguing with you on intercession I will have reward in heaven. Instead, here I am spending close to three hours each time trying to show you the truth. (WASTED TIME). It's ludicrous you say Islam follows the teaching of Jesus, even after your false prophet denied the death and resurrection of Jesus for which he shall be punished with...cont
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: Wasted time? Why r u being so negative? If Jesus thought like the way u did, he would NEVER have attracted his followers.
Denying the alleged death & resurrection of Christ does NOT in any way damage the credibility of Islam. As I've commented previously, there were even early Christians who did NOT believe in that. Just like some modern-day Christians who REJECT ur Trinity & the Hypostatic Union despite all the preachings of ur orthodox brethren. Now, why would they do that?
zorin85 4 months ago
Firstly the people you are speaking of are 2nd century christians like that matters when jesus was 1st century
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
@Rhantis: "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave BIRTH to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. ...
This Greek philosopher's conception of the divine Trinity ... can be found in all the ancient [PAGAN] religions" (French Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, Vol. 2, p. 1467).
Did u notice that? ALL the ancient [PAGAN] religions!
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 Ok show me Trinity in any pagan religion? just saying trinity is pagan means nothing you need to prove it show me any instance of pagan trinity
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
@Rha: U find it hard to believe the Trinity was PAGAN in origin? Consider the scholarly evidence.
"(b) Although the notion of a divine Triad or Trinity is characteristic of the Christian religion, IT IS BY NO MEANS peculiar to it. In Indian religion e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahma, Siva, & Vishnu; & in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, & Horus, constituting a divine family, like the Father, Mother, & Son in medieval Christian pictures. (continued)
zorin85 4 months ago
@Rha: Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality, which was suggested by Plato in the Timmoeus; e.g., in the philosophy of Plotinus the primary or original Realities are triadically represented as the Good or (in numerical symbol) the One, the Intelligence or the One-Many, and the World-Soul or the One and Many.
(continued above)
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: Read Hebrews 5:7 "While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the One who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God"
What does "heard his prayers" mean (c.f. 2 Chronicles 33:13, Ezra 8:23)? God ANSWERED his prayer to be RESCUED (i.e. SAVED) from death. Which means Jesus did NOT die on the cross as God granted his prayer to be saved from death - thus validating Muslim belief.
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 Add me too as one of His contenders, because I am a son of God as well. Back to John 5:18. The Jews were angry Jesus called God His father; you quoted Ex 4:22 and I love that. If Jesus' Sonship was same as theirs why were the Jews angry at His claim? He was their own, a Jew; He wasn't a Roman or Greek, so why were they angry at Jesus since they're all 'sons'? I guess you're a man. Now, if you go somewhere and another man gets angry at you because you introduce yourself as a man...contd
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: The One True God (John 17:3) whom Jesus worshiped (Luke 6:12) NEVER shied away from declaring His divinity in a most unambiguous term.
"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me" (Isaiah 46:9, see also 45:21).
If Jesus is God, why did he FAIL to speak such transparent language? Why keep his people dumbfounded? Where exactly did he say "I am God"? Instead, why did he cry out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34). Does God cry to God?
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: U said that "the Jews were angry Jesus called God His father". Well, why should they get angry? Where does the Hebrew scripture forbid a Jew from calling God as his Father? Prove to me that their objection to Jesus' claim has some basis in their scripture. Otherwise, u will have to concede that they were just DESPERATE to get rid of Jesus & make him notorious in the eyes of their fellow Jews by FALSELY alleging that Jesus blasphemed. Did Jesus claim to be the only son of God? Read Matt 5:9.
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 The deal is why should He forgive sins in the first place, that did not concern Him, to the disgust of the Jews? Why didn't Abraham, Moses or your prophet or anyone else possess this same authority? You said Jesus never made forgiving sins personal; come on, why are you doing this to yourself? In a court of law how is the accused set free? It often goes thus, "The accused person is discharged and acquitted." Say a teenager does something bad and while expecting to be punished ...contd
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: As I've stated Jesus NEVER forgave sins on a personal capacity (i.e. he NEVER said 'I forgive sins') but merely conveyed the forgiveness of sin from God. For that is why he was given the 'authority'.
If Jesus is God, does he need to be 'GIVEN authority'? Doesn't such authority belong to God as of right? Does He need to derive it from another?
R u implying that ur Bible has recorded every single word & action of Moses, Abraham, etc, faithfully? That's quite stretching a bit.
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 You make my job very easy by pointing out passages that answers your questions: thanks. You quoted 1 Tim 2:5. For there is one GOD and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ.
I guess you know a mediator is one who stands as a link-between two parties. The verse you quoted said; there is one GOD and MEDIATOR. Meaning, it's the same being here. Can't you SEE? Jesus is both God and man. Not just a human mediator; He is God too. He EVER LIVES to make intercessions for us.
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: I must COMPLIMENT u on ur VAIN attempt to obfuscate 1 Tim 2:5. Pretty SLOPPY. I expected something better.
For starters, where exactly does it say "Jesus is both God and man"? Who is "one mediator between God and men"? The GOD Jesus? The MAN-GOD Jesus? The GOD-MAN Jesus? Nothing of that sort. It simply puts it as "the MAN Christ Jesus". Just the MAN. So Christ was just a mediator - NOT God Himself.
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: Christ said his doctrine was NOT his own. John 7:16: “My teaching is NOT my own. It comes from Him who sent me.” Christ could not have said this if he were God because the doctrine would have been his.
Jesus and God have SEPARATE wills. Luke 22:42: “NOT my will but yours be done” (c.f. John 5:30). How then could he be God?
Do u now understand why Jews, Muslims & even Christians have GREAT DIFFICULTY in accepting Jesus as God?
zorin85 4 months ago
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@zorin85 Do u now understand why Jews, Muslims & even Christians have GREAT DIFFICULTY in accepting Jesus as God? Because there's NO proof that Jesus is/was devine. His divinity was voted on around 325 ce. and he BARELY became divine?
99minerkc 1 month ago
@zorin85 About John 5:28-29 which you quoted do you at least believe that Jesus Himself will call Muhammed and all dead people up from their graves? Once again I Tim 2:5 answers you; in fact I'm glad you brought it up cos it asnwers almost all the questions. As man Jesus acknolewledges His dependence on His father; Yet in that same passage He said at His voice all in the grave shall come forth. Is that how a man speaks? Again, thanks for bringing up 1 Tim 2:5 Man and God.
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: Christ made a DISTINCTION between speaking against him and speaking against the Holy Spirit. Luke 12:10: “And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
If both the Holy Spirit and Christ were co-equal persons in one God, then there would be no difference between speaking against Christ and speaking against the Holy Spirit. But obviously, it DOES. Why?
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: Where did Jesus say "I am both God and man"? The Christian belief that Christ was 100% God & 100% man is MANIFESTLY LUDICROUS & unscriptural.
How could a person claim to be 100% Omniscient (a divine attribute) & yet be ignorant at the same time (Mark 13:32)?
If he claims to be 100% Omnipotent (Matt 19:26), then how could he be IMPOTENT concurrently (Mark 6:5, 10:40, John 5:30)?
What then is the value of 100%? Thinking Christians r invited to ponder upon this man-made 'mystery'.
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: Yet more scriptural proof that Jesus is NOT God.
Jesus called the Father, “the only God” (John 5:44). The New American Standard Version goes so far as to translate it as “the one and only God.”
Jesus would NOT have said this had he believed he himself were God also.
Think about it.
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 About God being able to do all things show me one case that was brought before Jesus which He did not solve? And by Jesus saying with God all things are possible it does not mean God will solve all problems. Wasn't there a case where God said He repented for creating man? Search for it. Ignorant people use this to insult God that He did not know the future that man would become evil. If He knew the future He'd have known man would become evil and not say He repented.
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: Here is another COGENT PROOF that Jesus was NEVER God.
Who is the ONLY TRUE God according to Christ? Read John 17:3.
What do u find in common when u read 2 Cor 1:3, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Thess 1:2, 2 John 1:3, Gal 1:1, James 3:9, 1 Tim 1:2 & 2 Tim 1:2? U guessed it. God the Father or God our Father.
Which means, among the early Christians, God is synonymous ONLY with the Father. Now, show me a single verse which proclaims God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. Ask the Holy Spirit to assist u.
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: Common sense dictates that the fact Jesus prayed to God is sure proof Jesus is NOT God, as God doesn't pray. Where does Jesus claim to pray in his human nature? And more interestingly, to whom did Jesus instruct his disciples to pray?
"This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven ..." (Matt 6:9, see also 1 Pet 1:17).
Where did Jesus command others to pray to himself or to the Holy Spirit? Show me where he said "pray to the Son"? Again, u LACK proof from ur scripture.
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: When the disciples prayed to God in Acts, they called King David God’s “servant” (4:25). Later in that same prayer they called Jesus “your holy servant” (4:30). It is very obvious that the first century disciples did NOT believe Christ was God, but thought of him, like David, as a servant of God (c.f. Matt. 12:18 and Acts 3:26, which also refer to Jesus as God’s “servant”).
How could a servant of God be God Himself? Does that make sound, healthy sense? Christology DEFIES human reason.
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: 1 Corinthians 3:23 makes it clear that God is GREATER than Christ, just as Christ is GREATER than we are: “…and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God” (NASB).
Where does the Bible say Christ is God? What did Jesus teach his followers in Matt 6:6, 6:9, Luke 11:2? PRAY to the Father. Where exactly did he tell them to pray to the Son? Please show me.
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: U want me to show u one case that was brought before Jesus which he did not solve? Try Mark 10:40.
To repent means to regret for a mistake or sin committed or to demonstrate remorse. To claim that God repented (Gen 6:6, 1 Sam 15:35) is UTTERLY BLASPHEMOUS & does NOT befit the majesty of God who is Omniscient, does NOT make mistakes & is fully aware of His actions & consequences.
Humans r to make sincere repentance to God which He accepts in His mercy. That's what Islam teaches.
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 About Matt 9:8 I took time to patiently show you the reason for the rejoicing. vs8 ...when the mulitudes saw IT...they marvelled. I repeat; when they saw IT...(THE MAN AROSE) they praised God. It did not say when Jesus said "your sins are forgiven," they marvelled.
You said why not all the teachers; but why would some at all? Ok. Luke 7: 49...AND THEY that sat at meat with Him..." This time it's not SOME...you may twist this as well. Tell me why didn't Muhammed forgive sins.
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: The "IT" in Matt 9:8 also refers to the FACT that the man arose AFTER his sins were forgiven (by God - NOT by Jesus personally) & he was healed. Which means "IT" refers to a collective incident involving the forgiveness of sin & the healing. '
Why would some at all' because they were the critics of Jesus who were plotting his downfall initially. But apparently having witnessed the miracle they changed their minds & praised God (NOT Jesus!) for granting such authority unto men.
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: Do u think that is not possible? Nicodemus was a Pharisee (John 3:1) who became enamoured with Jesus (7:50-51) & so was Joseph of Arimathea (Mark 15:43). Though part of the Jewish elite, they NEVER alleged Jesus of blasphemy & they NEVER regarded Jesus as God as well.
Which means NOT every Jew was looking forward to destroy Jesus but only among the hypocritical elites who feel their status quo being threatened by this young rabbi & itinerant preacher from Galilee.
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 James 5:15 is answer to Luke 24:27 repentance and remission of sins is only possible in the name of Jesus. You quote Acts 2:22 why not read down to vs 24 that says He was crucified and raised from the dead, which your prophet and Islam denies? I don't even know where you stand. You read the Bible, believe one thing yet turn a blind away on those areas the expose Muhammed as a false prophet for denying the death of Jesus.
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: Ur belief in the alleged sinlessness of Jesus is also CONTRADICTED by ur scripture.
Luke 3:3 promotes "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" Which means only the sinners need to undergo that ritual. Those without sin need not bother. Then why did Jesus do so? "When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too" (3:21, see also Matt 3:13).
If he was sinless (as Christians allege), why undergo baptism? Or was he just play-acting to impress others?
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: Do u think only Muslims REJECT the so-called death & resurrection of Christ? Have u not heard of early Christian sects who shared similar sentiment? Read Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew.
In other words, there NEVER was a consensus on this matter even among the early Christians. Moreover, how is "raised from the dead" to be understood? Literally? When Paul boasted "I DIE ever day" (1 Cor 15:31) r we supposed to apply a literal interpretation?
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 I forgive your sins and your sins are forgiven, I answered the question earlier.
Put the rope around the goat's neck and put the goat's neck around the rope what is different? You metioned my quoting John. We talked more about Matt 9 than any other passage; why complain? That is the beauty of the Bible; different authors corroborating the same story and not one man coming out of the blues claiming he has revelations from God. How can anyone trust people like that?
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: put the goat's neck around the rope? What r u talking about?
different authors corroborating the same story? Allow me to explode another MYTH regarding ur Bible.
Matthew, supposedly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, informs us in 27:9 "Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet ..." The PROBLEM here is it was NEVER spoken by Jeremiah at all but Zechariah (11:12-13). Why did the Holy Spirit MISLEAD poor Matthew?
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: If that's too hard to digest, here's another. When listing Jesus' genealogy, Matt claimed Jacob to be the father of Joseph (the husband of Mary, the mother of Christ) in 1:16. But Luke 3:23 paints a DIFFERENT picture by claiming the father of Joseph to be Heli instead.
So who has got the right name? Jacob or Heli?
Corroboration ... or CONTRADICTION?
zorin85 4 months ago
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@73: Beauty of the Bible? I'm sure you'd change ur mind after reading the hilarious incident in Matt 21:7.
"They brought the donkey AND the colt, placed their cloaks on THEM, and Jesus sat on THEM."
Jesus riding on TWO animals simultaneously? Like a circus acrobat? Wouldn't he be the laughingstock of the community? Is this how the evangelists seek to honour 'God's only son'?
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: Prophet Muhammad did not exactly come out of the blue for his noble ancestry & impeccable character was well established among his peers.
Even before attaining prophethood he was known as Al Ameen (the Trustworthy), a rare honour among a community of idolaters who indulged in all manner of wickedness & perversion.
That was why his prophetic mission was finally made victorious by God, even after the initial rejection & persecution of his followers.
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 You mentioned John 8: You rightly said Jesus advised the woman to leave her sinful lifestyle; yes, anyone can say that. In fact, I have given people such advise. But here is what Jesus said before He said that? "...NEITHER DO I CONDEMN YOU...." What is His business? Was He her husband she cheated on? Why should He say He didn't condemn her? Once again only God has power to forgive sins, because all sins, even against others, is sin against God.
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: Why did Jesus say "neither do I condemn u"? Because she was dragged to Jesus' presence to have her condemned by him & punished according to Mosaic law.
But having realised that her case did NOT breach Lev 20:10 (the law clearly stipulates BOTH the adulterer & adulteress be punished - & NOT just one party), Jesus acquits her.
Where did Jesus tell her "I forgive ur sins"?
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: U claim that "all sins, even against others, is sin against God". But is God the only one to forgive sins? Can ordinary humans grant forgiveness? What did Jesus teach?
"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times? Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times" (Matt 18:21-22)
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 In John 8 the poor adulteress was set free by Jesus; don't you see the symbolic meaning? The law condemns us, but Jesus shows us mercy. Also, why don't you go to a prostitute somewhere and tell her, NEITHER DO I CONDEMN YOU, GO AND SIN NO MORE? No man can say this to a fellow man. Try it let's see what she'll do to you. Also Jesus did not ADVISE her, He commanded her to sin no more. He said the same thing to the man in John 5:14. The 10 Commandments are not 10 Advice; they are Commands!
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: Jesus would have punished her for her sins but for the fact that the condition laid down in Lev 20:10 & Deut 22:22 was NOT fulfilled. That is why he taunted her accusers with the words "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her". They all know they had sinned against God by conveniently catching the woman "in the act" (John 8:4) but letting go her male partner.
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: (continued) And where does John 8 claim she is a prostitute? Why do u defame that poor lady? R u implying that every adulteress is necessarily a prostitute? How naive can u get.
Jesus commanded her to sin no more? Surely u r LYING (again!). Show me one version of the Bible in John 8:11 which says Jesus commanded her. Why do u insist in putting words into the mouth of Christ?
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 Muhammed! About your prophet, what can I say? Neither Jesus, nor Moses, nor Isaiah, spoke about him. I'm sorry to inform you he preached a different gospel when he denied Jesus as the Son of God (Islam says God does not beget, yet you quoted many passages that say God has sons, so...) and the Bible says such a one is accursed for preaching another gospel. Muhammed was deceived by the Old Serpent.
You refer me to a Catholic Priest to validate your prophet; quite pathetic.
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: Neither Jesus, nor Moses, nor Isaiah, spoke about Muhammad? How would u know since u never bothered to examine the scriptural evidence presented in Father Keldani's book?
Why don't u gather some courage to do so instead of jumping into some ill-begotten & misguided conclusion? Didn't Jesus say "the truth will set u free"? How does a former Catholic priest offend u?
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: The authentic revelation from God to the Prophet Muhammad affirms the true gospel which Jesus preached, & NOT the corrupted & fabricated version which Christians parade as the New Testament. Islam exalts the status & teachings of the historical Jesus & NOT the Christ of myth promoted by Christendom. Read 'The Changing Faces of Jesus' by Dr. Geza Vermes (another ex-Catholic priest).
zorin85 4 months ago
@73: Do u think only Catholic priests like Idris Tawfiq embrace Islam? Have u not heard of Protestant pastors & Evangelical ministers making the same conscious decision?
Perhaps I should introduce them to u. Google Dr. Jerald Dirks, Sheikh Yusuf Estes, Kenneth L. Jenkins, Benjamin Chavis, Jenifer Harrell.
Or better still - watch their videos on the Deen Show.
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 Friend, it took me close to 3 hours to reply ur mails and boy, I think I have tried my best to show you Jesus is your saviour and without Him all men are lost forever. You're into Religious Studies full-time; great. I am not interested in winning a debate; your soul means more to me and that is the reason I spent so much time replying you. I had to skip other actvities today. I hope someday you'll see the truth that Jesus indeed died for your sins and rose again for your justification.
73geneva 4 months ago
@73: In Islamic theology, God is NOT in the business of begetting sons or daughters - as u find rampant among the PAGAN deities like Zeus, Shiva, etc. Ur Christology which has been deeply CORRUPTED by Hellenistic philosophy that gave birth to PAGAN-inspired dogmas like the Trinity, Hypostatic Union, etc is thoroughly repudiated in Islam, which remains faithful to Jesus' original teachings.
zorin85 4 months ago
Jesus was God who became man Zeus had sex with a woman to have children there is a difference also the Trinity or Hypostatic union are nowhere to be found in Hellenistic philosophy at all now i will ask you a simple question show me any hellenistic religion writing that is dated to the time of Jesus that has the trinity or hypostatic union
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
@Rha: If God did appear as Jesus who was seen & touched by many, why does 1 Tim 1:17 describe an essential attribute of God as being INVISIBLE? Do u know what invisible means? Was Jesus invisible to his followers?
How could Jesus be God as God is 'immortal' but according to ur belief Jesus DIED on the cross? How could someone who DIED be regarded as being immortal? Do u know what that word means?
Why does 1 Tim 6:16 describe God as "whom NO ONE has seen or can see" if Jesus was seen by many?
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 Ok simple God is spirit Jesus was Fully spiritually God so when people saw jesus they see his humanity hence why Jesus is Fully God and Fully Man
Jesus died once and resurrected God being immoral means his spirit never dies since God is spirit and God died physically not Spiritually hence why our human spirits are immortal but not our physical bodies unless you think we cease to exist when we die
again because God is spirit can you see a spirit? no you can not
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
@Rha: U still don't seem to get it, do u? Dictionary defines immortal as being 'NOT liable or subject to death'
When God is described as being immortal (1 Tim 1:17) it simply means God does NOT experience death in ANY FORM. Death is something CONTRARY to God's nature & essence. One who does experiences death (whether physical or spiritual) CANNOT be immortal. Simple logic.
Which is why NO human can become God & NEITHER does God become human. He is IMMORTAL, we (including Jesus) are NOT!
zorin85 4 months ago
@Rha: 1 Tim 1:17 does NOT merely say only the spirit of God is immortal but God Himself is immortal - which means He is NOT subject to death, unlike humans. That is what distinguishes humans with God - we r subject to death but God is NOT. Only in PAGAN traditions do gods die like mortals. Since u believe Jesus died & rose again, he CANNOT be immortal, hence NOT God.
Is that too hard to grasp?
zorin85 4 months ago
So then how can heaven and hell exist if humans are not immortal something in a human is immortal it does not die sine we go to heaven or hell when we die that is our spirit not our physical bodies same with jesus who was spiritually God was immortal
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
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@Rha: U still don't get it? Let me ask u again. What is the dictionary definition of immortal? Not liable or subject to death. Which means ONLY God qualifies to be called as immortal as ONLY God does NOT experience death in any form.
Where does the Bible claim humans r immortal? Prove it.
Anyone who dies (whether physical or spiritual) does NOT deserve to be called immortal. Hence, Jesus is NOT God.
zorin85 4 months ago
@Rha: If u believe Jesus died in the flesh but not in the spirit (& that makes him God), how does that make him special in contrast to other humans? Isn't that what happens to every human who experiences death?
It is our body that ultimately perishes but our spirit lives on. But can we regard ourselves as being immortal? Does the Bible claim humans r immortal? It does NOT - that honour is God's ALONE, NOT Jesus. Why? Because Jesus was a CREATED being but God ALONE is the Creator.
zorin85 4 months ago
That is the whole point of jesus being Fully man he is Fully man like anybody else it makes no sense for God to be come man and be different than a normal humans
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
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@Rha: That's the whole point here. Jesus is ONLY man & NOT God. He was FULLY man & ZERO God. Do u catch my drift?
If Jesus was God, he would have spoken plainly & unambiguously as the One True God did in Isaiah 46:9 "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me." See also 45:5.
Did Jesus speak such manifest & emphatic language? Why didn't he? Was he not sure of his own identity?
zorin85 4 months ago
@Rha: Again, 1 Tim 1:17 insists that God is INVISIBLE, NOT just His spirit. Invisible means CANNOT be seen AT ALL, AT ANY TIME.
"... for NO man can see Me and live!" (Exodus 33:20) declares God Almighty.
1 Tim 6:16 describes Him as one "whom NO one has seen or can see".
1 John 4:12 puts is quite forcefully that "NO one has ever seen God".
Now, if Jesus is God & was seen by many how do u reconcile it with these verses? Why is there a MANIFEST CONTRADICTION?
zorin85 4 months ago
Then explain to me what else 1 Tim 1:17 is referring to if it does not mean that since God is spirit he can not be seen?
once again your using verses that proves what jesus said God is spirit you can not see spirit
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
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@Rha: Let us apply 1 Tim 1:17 to Jesus. Was he eternal? Eternal is defined as "without beginning or end; one who is neither born nor dies". According to ur belief, Jesus was BORN on the night of Dec 25 & he DIED on the cross in his adulthood. Which means Jesus CANNOT be eternal as he experienced birth & death.
Moreover he also confessed ignorance of that day or hour (Mark 13:32) which means he CANNOT be eternal. Only God is. (continued above)
zorin85 4 months ago
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@Rha: Was Jesus immortal? I have proven to u he CANNOT be as he had experienced death. Only God is FREE from such tribulations.
Unlike God who is invisible & was NEVER seen at all, Jesus was seen by many & even Christians r fond of drawing pictures of him. Which means Jesus is NOT God as he was visible to all & didn't share the quality of being invisible. Only God is. (continued above)
zorin85 4 months ago
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@Rha: Who is the only God mentioned in 1 Tim 1:17? Jesus? Did Jesus call himself as the only God? He NEVER did. Instead, this is what he said in John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." Did u notice that? "You" & NOT "me". That makes a whole lot of difference, does it not?
1 Tim 1:17 has NOTHING to do with Jesus which means he is NOT God.
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 You did not answer my question show me a hellenistic writing in the first century that has any christian idea like the Trinity, christian baptizm, communion etc
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
@Rha: I have some questions for u which I want u to think carefully before answering.
In connection to the Hypostatic Union, where exactly did Jesus say "I am God and man"? c.f. John 8:40.
Better still, where did Jesus say "I am God"? c.f. Isaiah 46:9, Genesis 46:3.
If Jesus is God, where did he ask his disciples to pray to the Son? c.f. Matt 6:6, 6:9, 26:53.
Did u know the so-called Hypostatic union was ONLY affirmed in the First Council of Ephesus 431 years after Jesus?!
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 Where did jesus say i am God? he called himself son of man(Daniel 7:9) and son of God in connection with adam being called the son of God hence jesus humanity descendant of adam
John 8:40 proves Jesus is man lol
John 8:58 proves jesus is God he called himself Yahweh so in the same chapter jesus calls himself God and Man also john 20:28 jesus accepts being called God
the Hypostatic union is affirmed by jesus himself who called himself both man and God
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
@Rha: How does Jesus calling himself 'son of man' make him God? Numbers 23:19 specifically states that God is NOT “a son of man". Mind u, it doesn't merely say God is not LIKE a son of man.
Christ made a DISTINCTION between speaking against him & speaking against the Holy Spirit in Luke 12:10. If the Son & the Holy Spirit are 2 persons in the same God, why draw the distinction?
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 you have to be joking seriously? not ever instance of son of man means its referring to God you have to look at the thing called context please look that up in a dictionary now go read Daniel 7:9
the Trinity is one God who exist in three distinct persons that means they have different personalities they are not the same persons
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
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@Rha: It is u who need to put on ur glasses & study the context in Daniel 7:9. Where does it mention God? Why do u keep assuming things without solid proof?
1 Cor 3:23 makes it clear that God is GREATER than Christ, just as Christ is greater than we are: “…and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God” (NASB). If God is GREATER than Christ, how could Christ be God? Isn't that a question of simple common sense?
zorin85 4 months ago
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@Rha: U said "the Trinity is one God who exist in three distinct persons". U seriously believe that? Let me hear it from the lips of Jesus himself if u wish me to believe in it. What did he teach u in Mark 12:29?
"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE." Did u get that? ONE! Does that sound like three-in-one in ur ears? Who is the ONLY true God according to Jesus? Check out John 17:3. What does that tell u?
zorin85 4 months ago
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@Rha: Was Jesus the only person to be called son of God in the Bible? Read Genesis 6:2, 4; Exodus 4:22; Jeremiah 31:9; Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7 which talks about other sons of God.
Does calling someone son of God make him God? If that's the case, would u say Adam is God as he was called son of God in Luke 3:38?
What does son of God really mean? Read Mark 15:39 & contrast it with Luke 23:47.
The Christian understanding of that term stands at ODD with its true meaning as the Bible explains.
zorin85 4 months ago
@Rha: In John 8:58, Jesus purportedly said "before Abraham was born, I am!". I am .. what? God? Did he say that? Why do u assume things?
The man born blind that Jesus healed in John 9:9 was not claiming to be God, and he said “I am the man,” and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., “I am.” Does that make him God? Paul also used the same phrase of himself in Acts 26:29. Is he God? If Jesus is God, why didn't he say it quite PLAINLY that "I am God"? Was he shy? Unsure of himself?
zorin85 4 months ago
Wow i can not believe i have to explain this when you say you are before your ancestors that means you are saying you existed before them now how can jesus exist before his ancestors if he is not God?
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
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@Rha: It's a pity u r unable to discern the words of Jesus in John 8:58. Let me explain. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did NOT actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of “existing” in God’s foreknowledge. (continued above)
zorin85 4 months ago
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@Rha: Verse 56 is accurately translated in the King James Version, which says: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. That is called pre-existence.
zorin85 4 months ago
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@Rha: Let me ask u. Where do u think u existed prior to be born into this world? In the knowledge of God. So did I & so do other people who have lived, r living and will be born in the future. We all have a pre-existence & came into this world as God has ordained.
Now, just because we had existence prior to our physical birth does that make us God(s)? If u believe that, u r pretty deluded. Ur own Bible DEBUNKS u.
zorin85 4 months ago
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@Rha: What did God say to his prophet Jeremiah in 1:5? "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Can u explain what it means in the context of pre-existence? Perhaps then u will be able to understand clearly the words of Jesus in John 8:58.
Jesus called the Father, “the ONLY God” (John 5:44). The New American Standard Version goes so far as to translate it as “the one and only God.” Why did he say that?
zorin85 4 months ago
@Rha: In order for ur argument that Jesus’ “I am” statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement MUST be equivalent with God’s “I am” statement in Exodus 3:14.
However, the two statements are VERY DIFFERENT. While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become.” (continued above)
zorin85 4 months ago
@zorin85 You are confused the disciples of jesus were using the greek septuagint when they were quoting jesus and the Greek Old Testament in Exodus 3:14 has I am
Rhantismos23 4 months ago
@Rhantismos23 The disciples didn't speak in Greek
99minerkc 1 month ago
@99minerkc That is incorrect since in the Gospels the disciples of jesus quote from the septuagint which is the greek old testament how can they quote it if they did not know it and also in the first century greek was the linga franca that means everybody spoke greek in fact there is an inscription found near the temple in greek, So if there was greek speaking people in israel obviously the disciples spoke greek
Rhantismos23 1 month ago
@Rhantismos23 wrong
99minerkc 1 month ago
@99minerkc Is that all you can say can you actually refute my claims i can back up my claims with evidence can you?
Rhantismos23 1 month ago
@Rhantismos23 Interesting that you "claim" you can back up your claims yet you didn't do it.
99minerkc 1 month ago
@99minerkc I know i didn't hence thats why i said i can back up my claim not i did back up my claim now as i said there was greek incriptions in the location of the disciples of Jesus so that means greek was prominent in that location which means the disciples of Jesus had to be able to speak greek
Rhantismos23 1 month ago
@Rhantismos23 I never have and don't deny that there was Greek inscriptions. My arguement is in regards to what Jesus and his disciples "spoke" which was Aramaic and Hebrew(primarily Hebrew though). If you're referring to the gospels well there is no evidence that they were written by the disciples and we know Jesus DID NOT WRITE A SINGLE LETTER in any transcript. So, I would very much like to see your evidence that Jesus and his disciples "SPOKE" in Greek. Thanks.
99minerkc 1 month ago
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Rhantismos23 1 month ago
@Rhantismos23 I'm not asking for "OPINION" as anyone can provide false ones. I asked for "EVIDENCE which you continue to refuse to provide YET you claimed you could provide it. Hmm.... interesting. Are you going to continue to provide opinion or will you step up to the plate and give evidence to support your claims??!!
99minerkc 1 month ago
@99minerkc I have given evidence you just do not accept the evidence the evidence is clear Jesus and his Disciples are Merchants they obviously had to know Greek
Rhantismos23 1 month ago
@Rhantismos23 Why ? Jesus (peace be upon him) never addressed or commanded his disciples to take Israelite teachings to Greeks. Remember what's stated in Matthew 10:5: These twelve Jesus (pbuh) sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go NOT into the way of the GENTILES, and unto any city of the SAMARITIANS, enter ye NOT; but rather go to the LOST sheep of the house of ISRAEL. (in other words, they were to go to their own brethren to reinterate the teachings of Moses-not gentiles).
amuslima99 1 week ago
@amuslima99 Really ok in that same book Matthew 24:14 Jesus said "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Now i will ask you a question the Quran says "the Torah and the Injeel have been corrupted" My question to you is Why didn't God protect his messages, Did God not care for his message or was he not able
Rhantismos23 1 week ago
@Rhantismos23 The audience they were addressed to, in this case, Israelite Tribes, were given uncorrupted scripture--the message of God was first given as a revelation and conveyed through Angel Gabriel(Jibreel) to whatever Prophet the revelation was sent to. Then that Prophet conveyed the message to his followers. Later the revelations were documented. Later, despite God's warning not to, men changed passages of scripture to benefit themselves. And there never seemed any human pun
amuslima99 5 days ago
@amuslima99 Ok so then the quran is corrupted, since you said God never said to write it down and the Quran according to the hadith was written down since all the early companions of mohammed who fully knew the quran died. Im assuming you have not fully memorized the quran that means you are disobeying God
Rhantismos23 5 days ago
@Rhantismos23 -ishment in place for doing this. Like receiving a beating, imprisonment, flogging, exile, etc. so people did it at will. Men don't always agree to follow the commandments. But, I've noticed that unitarians, those who found fought we the Trinity and publized it in their documentations-their works were destroyed, they experience imprisonment, punishment, etc. And Jesus (peace be upon him) himself in Mark 12:29 spoke of worshipping One Lord. (the First commandment).
amuslima99 5 days ago
@amuslima99 Lol ok what does that have to do with the Trinity? Muslims have killed Christians does that mean Islam is false?
Rhantismos23 5 days ago
@amuslima99 Ok Please prove to me that the jews only believed in unitarian your assuming unitarian in mark 12:29 before even proving it
Rhantismos23 5 days ago
@Rhantismos23, Not that Jews believe in unitarian... they were monotheistic. About the only people that were. I am sorry, something is wrong with characters remaining. I'll get back.
amuslima99 5 days ago
@amuslima99 So are we we are monotheists trinitarians and the OT is the same way since God said " Let us make man in our image ...... Then God made man in him image", " man has become like one of us" Why is God speaking to himself in the plural and why does it say God made man in his(Singular) image
Rhantismos23 5 days ago
@Rhantismos23 He just does...I've heard it call a plural of respect. You know, Queen Victoria spoke like that too. "We are not amused." But do you honestly think God Almighty has private parts? A nose? Body parts like He has created for human beings? To suggest He has these body parts is to suggest that He too is depended on something else in order to breathe. You honestly think God needs to relieve Himself of urine? Remember Jesus asked, "Why do thou callest me Good? Only God is.
amuslima99 5 days ago
@amuslima99 Dude Plural of Respect did not come in to existance when Moses wrote Genesis in 1500BC lol that came in the middle ages, So plural of Respect can not be it
Rhantismos23 5 days ago
No God almighty does not have private parts since God Almighty is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit only Jesus who is the second person in the trinity became a human
Rhantismos23 5 days ago
@Rhantismos23 I always find it puzzling that here in Mark 12:29 for instance, where there is actual dialogue of Jesus (peace be upon him) stating that the Lord OUR GOD is one Lord and still people view him as part of the Trinity. Where did Jesus say he was second, or any part of a Trinity? Why did he not state it at this point while speaking with the scribe? Does Jesus (pbuh) have private parts?! There nothing or no one like God. Jesus was born of a human woman. He's human.
amuslima99 4 days ago
@amuslima99 I agree with you there is nothing or no one like Jesus, Do you not know what Christians Believe? We Believe what Jesus said He is both Son of Man(God) and Son of GOD(Human) So believe Jesus is Both God and Man
Rhantismos23 4 days ago
@amuslima99 Matthew 28:19 Jesus says baptize in the name of the father,son,Holy Spirit Jesus calls himself the son of God.
Rhantismos23 4 days ago
@Rhantismos23 "Why Callest Thou Me Good? there is None Good but ONE, that is God... Matt. 19:16-17. " That the Sons of God saw the daughters of men... " ...when the Sons of God came in unto the daughters of men..." Genesis 6:2 and 4. "...Thou (O David) art My Son; this day have I Begotten thee." Psalms 2:7 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God." Romans 8:14 "...and Ephraim is my Firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9.
amuslima99 4 days ago
@amuslima99 Again your assuming Unitarianism, Show me that God is not a Trinity in the bible? Do you not know what context means? read the passages in context Clearly Jesus calling himself the Son of God means he was God, Read the Context
Rhantismos23 4 days ago
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amuslima99 3 days ago
You SHOW me ! It says in more than one place in the Bible that God is ONE ! Now, you SHOW me where it describes GOD as THREE GODS. Because Jesus (pbuh) is NOT God. He didn't pray to HIMSELF in Gethsemane ! He can't be INFINITE and FINITE at the SAME time. The scribe didn' call him GOD. If we go by what you said, "Jesus calling himself the Son of God means he was God..." it is the same as you calling yourself your father's son means you are HIM ! Come on. Does that make any SENSE ?
amuslima99 3 days ago
@amuslima99 Ummm We do not believe in Three Gods, the Quran is wrong we do not believe in three Gods therefore the Quran is not from God or God does not know what we believe i will let you choice which one. Trinity is One God who exist in three persons which are Father, Son,Holy Spirit which Jesus spoke about in Matthew 28:19. Jesus did not pray to himself he pray to himself in Gethsemane he prayed to the Father
Rhantismos23 3 days ago
@Rhantismos23 What are you talking about? What do think a Trinity is? Who said the Quran said anything about three gods? I told you to find in the Bible where it describes God as THREE GODS. Nothing was mentioned about Quran. I told you all along we worship ONE GOD. You believe that Jesus can be a Son of God and God. And I know Jesus (pbuh) prayed to GOD in Gethsemane. But you said Jesus was ALSO God. lol.
amuslima99 2 days ago
@amuslima99 Lol you obviously did no follow that argument maybe you should reread that argument try to keep up please. The Quran says the Trinity is Three Gods since it says "Do not say Three" that is obviously talking about the Trinity, i will write this in caps so you can understand WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN THREE GODS WE BELIEVE IN ONE GOD WHO EXISTS IN THREE PERSONS. The Quran says we believe in Three Gods that is wrong
Rhantismos23 2 days ago
actually you can since if you are infinite you can be finite if you want to since you have the option if you do not have the option then you are Finite Humans do not have the option therefore we are finite but if we did we are infinite. Since God can limit himself if he wanted to. The Scribes never called Jesus the Messiah So then by that standard the Quran is wrong.
Rhantismos23 3 days ago
@Rhantismos23 We could never be infinite ! Infinite means to be UNBOUNDED or UNLIMITED. Human beings have limitations. We can do some things. We can't do everything like God. God has ALL POWER. We have limited POWER.
amuslima99 2 days ago
Humans do not have the option therefore we are finite but Jesus had the option and he became finite if you become finite that means you are infinite, since if you can choose to be limited then you are unlimited same way if you can tie yourself then you are untied
Rhantismos23 1 day ago
@amuslima99 Jesus is unlimited and unbounded because he bounded himself Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Rhantismos23 1 day ago
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Rhantismos23 3 days ago
@amuslima99 The scribes did not call Jesus the Messiah either so that means by your standard the Quran is wrong and Jesus is not the Messiah if you want to go by what the scribes say about Jesus
Rhantismos23 3 days ago
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amuslima99 2 days ago
@amuslima99 Lol you can not answer the question ok i will move on, I already proved that Jesus spoke Greek and that Jews spoke Greek but i will prove it again, John 12:20 Disciples Speak to Greeks Now do i have to prove that the Greeks spoke Greek to? please Read a History Book almost everybody in the world spoke Greek Look it up in wikipedia
Rhantismos23 2 days ago
@Rhantismos23 I was speaking, dear one, about the scribe in Mark 12:29 who asked Jesus (pbuh) quote: "Which is the first commandment of all?" And after Jesus (pbuh) answered his question, this SCRIBE said: "Well, Master, thou hast said the TRUTH; for there is ONE God; and there is NONE OTHER THAN HE; and to LOVE Him with ALL the HEART, and with ALL UNDERSTANDING,and with ALL THE SOUL, AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH..." You should regard this as the most important commandment.
amuslima99 2 days ago
@amuslima99 and we believe in one God i suggest you read Forgotten Trinity by James White if you actually want to know what the Trinity is Since it looks like you got your information about the Trinity from Muslims instead of Christian Scholars.
Rhantismos23 1 day ago
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@amuslima99 Again you do not know what you are talking about My Father and I have the same being but not the same persons meaning i am not my Father but i am like my Father in being so that means Jesus is like the Father but not the Father they have the same being same as Human Father and Son they both are humans
Rhantismos23 3 days ago
@amuslima99 If you are a seeker of truth i suggest you read Forgotten Trinity by James White if you actually want to know what the Trinity is and why Your God did not understand what the Trinity was
Rhantismos23 3 days ago
@Rhantismos23 When did I say I was a SEEKER of anything ? I am a muslim. This started because YOU said obviously Jesus (pbuh) spoke GREEK ! A claim you have yet to PROVE !
amuslima99 2 days ago
@amuslima99 once again i will prove it the third time John 12:20-50 Greeks speak to the disciples and they asked them if they can speak to Jesus now if Jesus or his disciples did not speak Greek how can they speak to the Greeks?
Rhantismos23 2 days ago
@amuslima99 Umm you brought up the Trinity and everything else Lol
Rhantismos23 2 days ago
@amuslima99 Also since we are on the topic of the Trinity why does the Quran say mary is in the Trinity Surah 5:116 it Allah asks Jesus if said to take Himself and Mary as Gods? Jesus is only God in the Trinity but Mary is not God at all
Rhantismos23 3 days ago
@Rhantismos23 Yes, and Jesus will answer Allah that No, he NEVER told anyone to take him as a God ! That there is only ONE God, Allah.
amuslima99 2 days ago
then why did Jesus accept worship as God? Thomas called Jesus My Lord and My God and Jesus did not say don't call me that John 20:28
Rhantismos23 2 days ago
@amuslima99 Jesus called himself God nobody else did so Jesus being the son of God is much different than anybody else
Rhantismos23 4 days ago
@Rhantismos23 Sorry, I didn't see you statement about Jesus being human until after I posted this. Where did Jesus (pbuh) address Greeks ? Where is evidence he or his disciples spoke Greek? When did he go to Greece or where did the Greeks have dialogue with him? Jesus was a practising Jew. He never stopped living his life as a Jew, (from the tribe of Judah). If Greeks followed Jesus, they would have to live as Jews as well. Israelites worshipped One God. Moses (Levi tribe) did.
amuslima99 4 days ago
@amuslima99 In John 10:20-22 Greeks came to Jesus disciples and they asked them if they can speak to Jesus Obviously if Jesus did not know Greek how could the Greeks firstly talk to his disciples or even ask them if they can talk to Jesus. Matthew 8:8 Jesus speaks to a Roman who spoke Greek and Latin, Matthew 27:1 Jesus speaks to Pontius Pilate who also spoke Greek and or Latin,
Rhantismos23 4 days ago
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amuslima99 4 days ago
@Rhantismos23 You are the one who said Jesus (pbuh) obviously spoke Greek remember? Just because Jesus (pbuh) spoke to Pontius Pilate who "also spoke Greek and or Latin" which are completely different languages, doesn't mean Jesus spoke it . Again, he would have no need to address Greeks about the teachings of Israelites.
amuslima99 4 days ago
@amuslima99 What? then what language did Jesus use to speak to Pontius Pilate lol Do you not know the difference between speaking Greek and teaching Greeks? you can speak a language and not teach Greek or even address them. Once again Greek in that time was the everyday language that means everybody spoke it
Rhantismos23 4 days ago
@Rhantismos23 You tell ME ! DO YOU KNOW ? LOL. This is YOUR theory ! PROVE IT WAS THE EVERYDAY LANGUAGE...WHERE DID YOU OBTAIN THIS INFORMATION? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS QUESTION? Pontius Pilate was NOT even GREEK !
amuslima99 3 days ago
@amuslima99 i already proved it but i will prove it again John 12:20-21 says Greeks came to speak to Jesus and they asked Jesus Disciples to see Jesus Now if Jesus and his disciples did not know Greek how can the Greeks ask the disciples if they can speak to Jesus if Jesus and his Disciples did not know Greek, I obtained this information from Historians i suggest you look up in Wikipedia
Rhantismos23 3 days ago
@Rhantismos23 What if the Greeks spoke Aramaic? From what I read, all it states in John 12:20 is that CERTAIN Greeks among them came up and worshipped at the feast. No where is there stated that Greeks spoke to Jesus in Aramaic (Jesus' language) or Greek. There is nothing about Jesus specifically talking to CERTAIN Greeks about anything of Judaism. Jesus lived his life as a Jewish man, as I stated before. And all Israelites were monotheistic. Recognize and worshipped One God.
amuslima99 2 days ago
@Rhantismos23 Look, I have said enough. If you have questions, go to a minister, or continue to listen to Bart Ehrman videos or go back to Wikipedia...whatever. I hope you find your answers and have a very happy life as a Christian, as I will have as a Muslim. Peace to You !
amuslima99 2 days ago
@amuslima99 Greek at that time was like english that means you can speak Greek and still be Jewish just like you can speak English and be a jew
Rhantismos23 4 days ago
@Rhantismos23 Where did you get this information that Greek is like english to Jews. I'd like to read it. But whether it is a fact or not, Israelite teachings were not meant for Gentiles. Just like it's stated in the Bible, or why is it stated NOT to go to them in the NT.
amuslima99 4 days ago
@amuslima99 How many times do i have to post it? Matthew 28:19 go in to all the world( which includes the gentiles) and preach the Gospel. What do you think all the world means? Go read a book on Alexander he took the Greek Language to all the known world its a known fact
Rhantismos23 4 days ago
@R