I'm never amazed how many ways satan tries to get people to believe his lies. This video is certainly a good example. Perhaps the author should gain some spitual wisdom before stating such nonsense & deliberate misleading omitted truth. God allows free will, if you should sin or error He also forgives you. There's nothing forced. That was the whole battle in Heaven between God & Satan.Get it right before you corrupt & turn those away from God.This is merely for the authors own lack of good will!
I think the logic behind the analogy is a bit off. An assumed premise is that the person already accepted that there is a God and that they need to choose between heaven and hell. True, this is basically a 'non-choice', but we have the free will to choose to believe in the existence of God/heaven/hell. When there is this 'gun' to your head, the Christian believes there are live bullets in the gun. The atheist believes there are no bullets. The same applies to the value of the 'bribe'.
I agree that some christians try to force God onto people to shoving the damnation of hell on them. However, I don't do that all I do is explain why you need and the benefits of accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. After that I let you chose on your own wether to accept my invitation on God;s behalf our reject it. But, I wll still love you and respect you as a true christian should. Freewill is a gift . Now you can take this anyway you want to. May God Bless You and Keep You.
Your free will is a slave to your heart which before salvation is stony. God never gave us a choice John 15:16 puts it plainly when it says Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. You have free will to choose whats right but before salvation you will not make the right choice.
One thing I know, "free will" is a doctrine of devils taught NOWHERE in the Bible. Fact is, we are predestinated. And secondly hell is not some place of eternal torture. Is that merciful a merciful god? Is that the merciful God I read about in the Bible a tyrant forever burning people? No! Hell is the grave. They are synonymous. In other words, when an unsaved person dies they are simply DEAD never to rise again. They don't experience anything at all. No consciousness. This is the Lord's mercy.
your experience with the church is obviously flawed. hell is not a systematic punishment, but a place where there is no god. god does not punish you at all! your free choice is to go back to god, or go away from god. god doesn't really "care" except for the fact that he would like you to be with him. if you don't want to go to gods party, go to the other one. the other one just doesn't have god there.
@aspirin99 one possible way to look at it is: Jesus in the Garden breathed life into Adam. A small portion of Jesus spirit/conciousness which exists outside of this dimension was attached to Adams lifeless body giving him life. That spirit passed through generations to us growing like a vine with many branches. In this sense we are all a part of God although we are not God. So from this perspective God is placing parts of himself into the lake of fire for eternity.
The lake of fire is not the worst torment ever conceived. It can always be worse infinitly worse. We may have the perception of choice and free will but in practice our steps are ordered by God for our good or harm to accomplish his purpose in us. The decision is really to choose order or disorder. To choose order is to humbly align yourself with God's will. To choose disorder is to reject reality and substitute your own reality.
Hell isnt like what your preacher said. Hell is like what Jesus said a extremely dry place in the spiritual dimension awaiting the resurrection and judgement. The lake of fire of molten sulfer is what the preacher is speaking about it is a future lake that will exist on the earth for eternity prepared for the rebellious angels. The rebellious angels goal is to take as many people as they can with them. However, meaningless this goal is.
John 12:32 Jesus said, And if I be lifted up (die on the cross) I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto myself. When God's Judgments are administered in the Earth by the overcomers the inhabitants of the Earth will learn righteousness (Isa 26:9). It's during this time that unbelievers will be drawn to Christ, learn righteousness, and be saved (I Tim 2:4).
I'm glad the Scriptures don't teach this. They mis-translated the Greek word aion as forever in the bible denoting endless duration. I will prove it doesn't mean forever punishment. Matthew 28:20 I am with you to the END of the AGE [Gk:Aion]. The Scriptures teach Judgment lasts for the ages not forever.
Sigh. Religion is so Man-made always trying to scare man in order to control. The Bible tells Christians to spread the Good News. Last time I checked telling people they are going to Hell is not Good News LOL. Yet you have crazies with their anti-gay hate signs shouting out they are going to Hell.
Sigh. Religion is so Man-made always trying to scare man in order to control. The Bible tells Christians to spread the Good News. Last time I checked telling people they are going to Hell is not Good News LOL. Yet you have crazies with their anti-gay hate signs shouting out they are going to Hell.
Sigh. Religion is so corrupt always trying to scare people to control them. The Bible tells Christians to spread the Good News. Last time I checked telling people that they are going to Hell isnt Good News LOL. Yet you have crazy people with their anti-gay hate signs and shouting out how they are going to Hell
Sigh. Religion is so corrupt always trying to scare people to control them. The Bible tells Christians to spread the Good News. Last time I checked telling people that they are going to Hell isnt Good News LOL. Yet you have crazy people with their anti-gay hate signs and shouting out how they are going to Hell
The God described in this video is not the God of the Bible. The God of the bible chooses a group of people for his own glory and love for them to be with him in eternal glory. He does this because man is unable to choose for God in the first place, but is always prone to sin.
You may have a free will to do anything you like but Choosing Jesus is still your choice and you can say no and not choosing Jesus would be a dumb one for sure.
If you think your being pushed into a choice here, well turn away from him and show him something, for a bunch of atheist will be with you in hell. Hey Dud , Go for it and show him something !
Of course it's a choice, but that's not the question, though, is it? The question is whether or not you can freely choose. If you must choose or be tortured, you cannot freely choose. That is the discussion. Respond to the question: Can you freely choose between God or being tortured?
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God as given everyone a choice, Listen to your heart and make your choice, Real christians love Jesus and do not have to be scared into excepting him, and some people need to know the consequences for rejecting the love God has shown you....This video is Bs
God hasn't given us free will. He knows what's going to happened, he's always known, even before he created us. He knew who would turn to him for salvation and who wouldn't. We have as much free will as actors in a movie.
And real christians only turned to God in the first place for fear of hell. If there was no hell, attendance at church would be much lower. I assure you.
agreed....but I'm still confused on why it is that you capitalize the word god and why you talk about this mythical creature as if it actually created us.
It's fine to believe in a creator, but the belief, or even the appearance of a elief in Yahweh, is ridiculous.
What i'm realy curious about is, whether you beleive in certain stories in the bible such as, Moses, burning bushes, curing blind, rebirth, and Garden of Eden etc?
well, philosophically that's a tough question because of the "brain in a vat"-theory, which means that the only thing i can know for sure iscogito ergo sum, i think therefore i am, but of course that's not all i believe in:
basically what i believe in is what science can prove, for example i have never seen or felt or in any other way been affected by a black hole, but since scientist can observe it and explain to me how it works, i believe in it...
on the contrary, just as i have never experienced a lack hole i have never experienced god, but in the case with god scientist cannot explain to me how god works, how the miracles of jesus worked on a nuclear level, or anything like that, instead they say that everything in the bible is against the scientific rules... until the day that that you can go beyond philosophy and explain god on a scientific level i cannot believe in him...
LoL typical christian replies dude, you rely on some imaginary beings strength and i'll rely on my own.
I never have and never will need, Gods grace or whatever, when i see him, i'll beleive him.
PS all bible qoute replies and divine speeches are invalid points in ANY argument, so please use your head and back what you say up with facts before u choose to argue with me
LoL seriously wakener, instead of worshipping, some guy you read about and heard about in a fiction book, and through a style of "chinease whispers" aka Jesus (who is no doubt real) but is not who he is said to be.
How about worshipping a factual great man who deserves worship "THE ONE, THE ONLY................ Chaaarrles DAAARWIIIIN!!!!
"The bible is a real book that still stands undiscredited by its attackers"
there are several videos here on youtube discrediting the bible, if you still believe that it's not discredited, well then you must be willfully ignoring it because there is no dispute in it: the bible is contradicting itself and as such it can't be as perfect and divine as you say it is...
Also the bible has been discredited many many many times, in fact u can prob find a vid on YT.
It has not been discredited to christians simply because they refuse to see it.
And i am sorting i load "LOAD" of links which discredit the bible, in so many ways, but when you see this, you will simply see "god works in mysterious ways" "hmm fact or belief... i'll choose belief"
No i have simply ran out of energy to convince closed minded religious fools that ... well LOOK AT THE FACTs!
And i am from the UK so we don't use this acedemic major stuff, although my field is Physiotherepy, anatomy and personal training. But acedemics are irrelivent, in this situation. as when dealing with ppl who believe in supernatural, burning bushes and parting seas, all acedemics go out the window, and i find it hilarious to think you beleive this.
Dude STFU with your preaching, it has no place amongst intellectuals. there is neither fact nor logic in what you say, So pcik up a real book, and stop refering to the bible.
I read loads of fiction books, but i dont go around sayin "Many live that deserve death, and some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in judgement."
TY miccp4130. These ppl just can't seem to see what is right in front of their eyes. and when in doubt, shoot a load of nonsence quotes from the bible, which they also struggle to see the thousands of flaws with
they attack christian only always,not jews not muslims. we know way,they can stand jesus light,they are like a bat, they can see in the light,jesus is full of light. this is another bat,ready to fall and break his neck. in a sunny day...jesus is the king of kings....
they attack christian only always,not jews not muslims. we know way,they can stand jesus light,they are like a bat, they can see in the light,jesus is full of light. this is another bat,ready to fall and break his neck. in a sunny day...jesus is the king of kings....
thats because jews, are from the same religioun as christians, from the same story etc, and muslims, well we ALL know they are crazyier than all other religions and we dont need to explain, why, we know they see all others as infidels, etc. But christians live along side us and unfortunatly this disease of ignorance effects our friends and family, and the dont see why they are so dumb.
Plus to simplify, its the biggest religion, so if you wana take a hit at some1 you go for the top dog!
I hjave to cut my spellings down as they dont fit in these boxes, DUMBASS!
An whered you get dog from LMAO! just another example of christians taking things literally and jumping to conclusions! Top dog is an expression used for ppl at the top of their league, Christians are probs the top religion, or at least most talked about
Well, I see your point. But I still feel offended. You do realize that we're PEOPLE, right?
Christians are people who just choose to believe in a loving God. It's our choice, so butt out! Can't you accept us? It's stupid that you preach acceptance, but can't find it in your heart to accept us! Get a grip.
yeah i know, we can accept you and god etc, but its the religion we can't accept, or rather heavily disagree with. I accept you need a supporting figure to fall back on etc, but the religion is so false follow god, beleive he is their pray but, theres no need to preach and follow so many stupid, flase sayings
Religion in general, simply because i beleive only in real things, logical factual, explainable, tangable. As these r what make up reality.
The only supernatural/fictional things i beleive in r that which effect me, or i see/hear/touch etc or that i cn explain.
I liv by lots of strong morals, principles n values, treat everyone equal unless, they... well arn't equal, make very good choices, and care for many, and have acctual saved a few lives. But religion still says im goin to hell LoL
Anyway, we are all, different, some to take life and embrace it with real things, some chose to embrace it with things they hold dear which may not be real, be make life more bearable and pleasent for them.
In the end we are all here to survive, care for ourselfs and families. And love.
The ones we should realy be arguing with are those who choose crime, hate, and ultimatly make terrible choices
Unfortuanately not, its a welcome break from preaching for me lol, but thats my opinion, i can see ur side tho. its like someone preaching the bible to me i guess lol.
And TBH sadly, i was gona do a similer video, but on why the human race are "cance" LMAO, i could imagine the arguments coming from that lol.. Well anyway, our petty arguments mean nothing to The universe or God, althought they unfortunatly effect our poor planet =(
LMAO!! thats cause those old exentric bastards thousands of years ago new there will be people in the future who use their head and use knowlage, and facts rather than what that old bloke wrote whilst he was pissed on "Gods blood" (wine) lmao.
Live your life by a book with no evidence and a load of jibberish sperted by exentric old men, and i'll live my life, do good, care for my environment, myself and others. and see what happens when the lights goe out. SO PLEASE!! enjoy your deluded life
BUT...... another guy goes " HI God... wel i have raped 20 kids killed their parents and stole everything i owns, BUT..... I'm sorry and i beleive in you"
God replies...
"Not a problem my son, you have harmed many ppl but you can come into paradise n enjoy all the pleasures you imagined, including loads of lil kids.... after all i sent that loving rightous doctor who didnt beleive in me to hell. so take his place HOHOHO"
OMG!!!! i love this video, its so true, but he should have put *if god is omni everything, he knows all, reads minds, understands all etc. BUT... yet he says "i dont care if ur a doctor who saved 1000 people and lived right treated urself and family and naegbors right.... you dont believe in me therefore your going to suffer the worst torment for eternity!!!!"
You so don't understand Christianity. There's so much more to it than that.
Have you ever heard of Newtonian physics? "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction." Message me later for explanation of that - I'd be happy to elaborate. However, I don't want to be a nuisance by preaching to people who won't listen, so please listen to me with an open mind. :)
You don't seem to understand where the argument comes from, it may be an exaggeration, but the point is explained thoroughly.
If you want to use an argument for Christianity using Newtonian physics, you have to understand that physics work with what's testable, observable, and repeatable... like science. To say that the Christian god exists, is to say that the laws of physics, due to what the Bible says is true, are completely false, due to the defiance of them in the Bible.
What you and most Christians don't understand is that no decision ever made is worth an eternity of punishment. You are brainwashed by what was written in the bible and you just happen to believe every word of it.
What kind of a monster would I be if I set it up so that someone who doesn't choose to be with me ends up being tortured even for just 2 minutes, let alone eternity? I'm all-powerful, but I SET IT UP that way!
First of all, it isn't what you do that condemns you. It's what you choose to do that condemns you. Besides, God is a loving God - yes, we're sinful by nature, and we are deserving of hell, but he chose to DIE, in the most excruciating way imaginable EVEN TODAY, in order to give us a way to be with him.
So, isn't it reasonable that we need to CHOOSE to be with him? It isn't exactly that far of a stretch. I mean, COME ON - Jesus did absolutely NOTHING to deserve that. Why ELSE would he?
Your religion is just downright repulsive. Are you perfectly OK with the idea that he tortures people forever even as they change their mind because they want the torture to stop?
Can you at least have the same kind of fun in Heaven that you can have here? Can a virgin finally have sex and foreplay the opposite sex when he or she is in Heaven?
Indeed my friends, the problem is all it takes is 1 crazy deluded person and they bring their entire family up christian, and give theri children no choice on what they belive as for the first years of their life they have this choice to answer to and at that age u will choos god, and unless they develop braincels and true free will, they wont think for themselves, they will turn to the bible!
Furthermore, with story of the rich man and Lazurus, the part about the rich man ending up in hell and being there forever is made up because you cannot be held accountable for either place unless you actually seen and experienced them beforehand.
Newtonian physics? Come on. Why would the reaction be eternal when the action is finite? Some spirit comes up and ask God why he's being tortured "Because he didn't choose me." And the guy asks "How long now?" God says "1755 years." The guy would be like "WTF kind of a sadistic moneter are you!?"
Who the fuck would actually CHOOSE to be tortured? COME ON. I wouldn't and I can't anyone in their right mind who would. The Christian God is cruel because if you DON'T choose him, look what happens.
Bob is about to choose between the two rings. If Bob chooses ring B, God does not exist! God is omniscient and has known since the "beginning of eternity" that Bob will choose ring A. Therefore, if God exists, there is no possible world where Bob can choose ring B!
Either Bob has Free Will, (contrary to the Laws of Nature), and God does not exist or Bob does not have Free Will and God is guilty of all the crimes in the World past, present and future! OR neither "Free Will" nor "God" exists.
Bob and Alice are transexuals who recently got married. They've been together for some years now and Bob sets out to buy an eternity ring for Alice. God knows that in a short while Bob will be "choosing" between two eternity rings, ring A and ring B. God knows that Bob will choose ring A. God has always known that Bob will choose ring A. Before Bob existed, before the Human race existed, even before the "foundation of the World" God knew this.
Free Will seems to be part of the same myth of "God". God made everything but there is "evil" in the world. How did "evil" get there? Personal beings must have exercised their "Free Will" contrary to the will of God (and the Laws of Nature). In order to achieve this impossibiity people have "souls" which can operate independently of physical laws. These souls can make choices that are neither caused by what went before, nor acausally random (or pseudo-random), or any combination of these two.
The "Free Will" doctrine is the baseless assertion that humans possess the magical ability to choose an action that is neither the result of blind chance nor the result of previous causes, that is, Free Will is neither indeterministic nor deterministic.
This video is to address the abusive psychological effects of people threatening children with hell. As to your ideas, I think you greatly over simplify the issue of Freewill, which is a broader issue that I am not trying to address in this video on doctrine.
Actually the "simplification" as you call it is the application of Occam's Razor. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1975) defines "free will" as "the power asserted of moral beings of choosing within limitations or with respect to some matters without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law." And the part about "without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law" is what is commonly meant when the term free will / freewill is used. Christians believe that (GoTo2)
(2) what an omnipotent god "wants" can be superseded by the human will. And they believe that an omniscient god can be surprised by a human choice. Then when the Christian "deconverts," in most cases he believes humans have the ability to make choices that supersede physical necessity or causal law. The illusion is so prevalent that even Richard Dawkins tries to steer clear of the freewill issue in order to keep his major objection about religion from being sidetracked. So, I know what you mean.
The video was pretty good except you seem to be missing the point. Every major religion that I know of teach the doctrine of freewill. The teaching helps conceal the fact that humans can be coerced and manipulated with treats of punishment or promises of reward. And the point you seem to miss is, if free will were true no threat of punishment or promise of reward could possibly have any effect on human choice behavior. Thus the Fundamentalist Belief you need to overcome is the belief in Freewill
So, if someone threatens you with torture if you don't do something, you're saying you are still freely choosing? I think you need a little less fiction in your thinking.
I'm saying that it is still a choice, yes you can call it other things, but to deny that it is still a type of choice is to deny logic. If you can 'choose' one or the other, its still a choice, that really shouldn't be hard to understand, if you want to add other labels to it, that's fine, go for it. But you can't say it's not a choice when it obviously still is.
No one is arguing that it's not a "choice". The argument is whether it is a freely made choice. A choice made under duress of torture is not one that is freely made; therefore, as seen from this doctrine, there would be no freewill.
Indeed Aspirin, and which in many cases is a choice which is made by ur Christian parents, bringing u up with the choice (belive and enjoy pleasure) or dont beleive and be tortured for eternity
LoL i have just seen 1 part of your comment and dont need to read further unless, u are athiest then ignore this comment.
But you said "but to deny that it is still a type of choice is to deny logic" but there are ABSOLUTLY NO religiouns that allow logic, the fact of a omni-everything being is not logical, Moses parting the sea is not logical, heaven and hell arnt logical, and a burning bush is not logical. the entire bible does not allow logic!
Did you watch the video? It's addressing the point that the threat of torture removes the ability to chose freely. If you threaten me with torture if I don't do what you want, that's pretty much forcing me to do what you want.
If the downside to being human is eternal pain and torment after you die where as animals don't have to worr about this, then being human is a terrible burden and we are cursed for being humans.
Why would you think ANYONE deserves eternal pain after they die just because of a 1 or 2 bad choices?
And that's why I refuse to believe all that crap that you Christians buy into with Chrsitianity. I have more compassion that you do. If my mom or dad were burning in Hell, I'd be pissed off.
"If the downside to being human is eternal pain and torment after you die where as animals don't have to worr about this, then being human is a terrible burden and we are cursed for being humans."
I think you are forgetting about heaven, the unqualified reward we can inherit not of our own merit, but of the Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. That's not a burden, that's a glorious joy!
"Why would you think ANYONE deserves eternal pain after they die just because of a 1 or 2 bad choices?"
Because they realize that God is Holy and man is evil. We can never fully comprehend the extent of our wickedness and the extent of God's goodness. We are like an ant comparing our self to another ant and saying "I'm pretty big" but until we come face to face with say, the sun, we cannot comprehend just how small we are. In the same way, we do not realize how wicked we are and how Holy God is
Another thing to bare in mind; God did not create hell to punish anyone & it is not a place of fire, the fire is not literal, it represents the sensations experienced while being separated from God. Hell is eternal separation from God. Right through your life, with every choice you make, you are either choosing God (good) or choosing the devil (evil) & at the end of your life, you get what you choose, God won't force anyone to be with Him, you have to choose Him, heaven & hell are the end result
If the only other alternative from choosing what someone wants you to do is pure torment, that is not a real choice, because no one wants to be tortured, not even God himself, so you really don't have a choice at all.
For example, if your father tells you to NOT step on the gas when driving his car or he'll cut off your foot with a rusty chainsaw, you have no choice but to avoid stepping on the gas at all costs!!!
But God is gracious, sent His son to die for our sins, to satisfy justice and told us, all you have to do is turn from your sin, believe that Jesus died for you and you will be saved, not because of anything you have done, but because of what I have done for you. So your right, it's not fair at all, not fair on Jesus.
Also bare in mind, if no one had free-will to choose God, everyone would have chosen God, but some haven't. Therefore; free-will exists, plain and simple.
I enjoyed this video very much. When are you going to come out with more like this? i get a kick out of these and other videos that state the true fact that Christianity is all about threats. I've also enjoyed "Gisburne2000" and "azsuperman01" videos.
My GOd help those who scare people into christianity they will be held responsible for every body they draw away from God i hope u Understand aspirin Are u still a believer?? are u gonna let a few peoples views draw u away from God who do u believe God who loves you or human beings who are sinful by nature?
God creates a planet, and beings to inhabit it, with freewill, and everything they need. Some of them are good, and He likes them. Some of them are evil, and He doesn't want them in His house.
God is fair and just. When you lie down to sleep at night, it is God who sustains you. You are like a sitting duck for half your life. Lying there, prone, hurtling through space. God does not need to supply you with oxygen. God does not need you. You need God though. You need God.
You make a lot of assumptions there. However, none of them address the point made in the video. Using torture as a threat against anyone who doesn't agree to love you removes that person's ability to freely choose to love.
I got into a shouting match with a fundamentalist Christian over this. He accused me of not taking responsibility for my sin and choosing God. Supposedly, I cite the fact that since I likely never believed to start with, I wasn't chosen by God to believe at all. How does that make me hide behind his dogma? If it was your God who created me, I don't see why he did created me because I doubt his existence now.
Yep, that's pretty much how it's supposed to go down. It seems to me that a perfect being would be beyond these kind of tactics. How can a finite sin be punished infinitely. It just doesn't make sense. Speaking of infinite, why wasn't Jesus sent to hell for all eternity? It would seem an adequate trade for our eternal punishment.
maybe u should study the holy bible some more cause this video is totally false the whole thing is that god gave us free will we have souls we are the only beings that have souls dog's dont them cats dont and fish or any animal for that matter they all are forced to obey god but since we have a soul we can choice weather or not to obey god's word and his will read a bible or better yet study Christianity before making a video like this again u are giving people the wrong wrong information
This video addresses what some people believe and preach- It's not so much about the Bible. I'm talking about people who scare little kids with the idea that a God will torture them if they do not love Him. Are you saying that you don't think people are saying that on a regular basis? Of course they are. That's what this video is against.
any one who scares little kids into thinking that God will torture them is not a christian to start with dont be around "fake" christians im against people trying to put fear into peoples hearts also but the people doing that are wrong and fyi God do NOT torture anybody we all deserve to die because of our sins we are all bad but U should THANK GOD that he sent us a redemer I said study the beliefs more before u question our free will and why People are sent to hell they sent them selfs there
Good Video. When a preacher says there is a hell for those who don't follow the word of God, then logically there is no free will. To use the threat of hell, whether casually mention or shoved down you thoat, it doesn't matter. Do what I say or face hell eliminates any option. You have to obey what your religion says because no sane person given the option of eternal hell would choose hell.
Thank you for your video. You raise some valid points about the way some preachers go about their so called good work. Spiritual blackmail is a disgrace, especially directed towards children who are very impressionable and can be scarred for life. But please don't let the actions of one confused pastor blind you from the amazing sacrifice Jesus made for us, none of us know exactly what hell is like but I imagine it might be the same as my life on earth before I accepted Christ and His love.
Okay, it's still free will. But, if god demands everyone to be perfect and follow a specific dogma, why did he give humans free will in the first place? He basically wanted everyone the same.
1) he doesn't demand that everyone be perfect, if he did, everyone would goto Hell.
2) he gave us free-will as the ultimate sign of love, so that we weren't simply God praising robots. He loves us so much that He gives us the choice to abandon Him.
PS I am very sorry to hear about your church and their hell-fire preaching style, that is not the way to preach, that is not what the Bible teaching, that is not how Jesus spoke and they have clearly given you the wrong impression. I deeply deeply apologize on their behalf.
If we go back to my road-block example in Africa, would you be annoyed that I gave you the choice to fly home, instead of being murdered? Or would you just be grateful that I offered to die for you?
Once you understand how much I appreciate having that choice, you will understand why I don't care that I have to choose, Im just so grateful that I can choose.
And finally the main point (in the bigger picture)
is the fact that no one (who believes in Jesus Christ) cares that we have to choice him or hell and anyone that has a problem with having to choice God or hell, is insanely stupid not to appreciate the fact that they CAN choose and they are not just going to hell, as we ALL would of if it wasn't for Jesus.
As a believer, I was always horrified at the morality of Hell and it seems inconceivable that you can say that all Christians have no problem with it. That's just ignorant and callow. Ever heard of the 7th Day Adventists?
You still have not addressed the original issue. A decision that is forced under the threat of extreme torment is called duress- not freewill. What is illogical about that?
Man you just don't get it do you. Last time dude...
1) Definition of the word free-will "made or done freely or of one's own accord" No one forces you to believe in God, we choose to. That is free-will, like it or not.
2) My point of saying all believers in Jesus do not care about having to make a choice to believe in him or not is because they appreciate the opportunity so much.
Free will means ur free to do what u want u can serve him or not God do not force him self on people What u are doing now is free will If u did not have free will then u would be forced to serve him like angels do but God gave u a choice while u are on this earth choice wisely why do u think human beings were created think about that.
My point though (along the lines of your massively narrow minded argument)
is that I have the free-will to choose/select to option to serve or deny God. If it wasn't a choice, if there wasn't free-will, you wouldn't see anyone who doesn't serve God. It is a choice, THAT'S A FACT. Sorry your video is not logically viable.
Again, a choice that, when not followed, results in punishment, is not a choice that can be freely made. That is the crux of the freewill problem. The severity of the punishment truly is like a gun to our head. That is far, far from a choice that is freely made.
1) you completely ignored my points. Nobody (who knows Jesus) actually cares, all they care about is the fact that he died for our sins so that we may have eternal life. That's ALL that matters. Being fussy about it not being a totally fair choice is just stupidity.
And mothers of suicide bombers don't care that their child is blown to paste... how is that a point for or against the morality of the event?
Preaching hell is emotionally damaging to children, especially since the whole doctrine is ludicrous. You use hell as a gun to the head of any wavering child. Shame on you.
EXCUSE ME!? HOW DARE YOU! There is no shame on me and you have no right to say such things or be so judgmental. I do a huge amount to help this world so don't you dare insult me by trying to place shame on me, just last night I was out of the streets feeding the homeless, praying for them and giving them hope. I make a very big effort so their can be no shame placed on me. And I do not hell-fire preach, so don't assume I do. I don't do it or agree with it.
So the fact that anyone who believes in Jesus is too blinded and sheep-like to care that the choice they're being given is no choice at all means what to us, exactly? I don't get what point you're trying to make. That true followers are too stupid (the impression you're giving, not my belief) to realize they're being tricked and cheated with a fake version of free-will?
he gave us all a choice u can obey him and live with him or u can continue to live without him God do not force him self on you but if u choice to reject life then u can not be mad if you die thats all im saying live ur life how u want to but we all will have to give acount to God one day and dont say nobody did not tell u
So, if someone gives you a choice, but you know you will be tortured if you chose one way over the other- Your saying that that is still a choice freely made?
I come back to the car, tell u they need to murder someone and that I will volunteer to do it so u can fly home to ur family. All I ask is that u remember me and thank me for doing it. That's not a bully, that's a beautiful act of love. That's not a bribe, that a beautiful gesture of love.
Nothing you've said changes the problem. The question is - Can you freely choose to serve God? If you are punished for not serving God, you cannot freely choose. It's a commandment with horrific torture for breaking. You might as well change your theology. There's no way around it.
lol you sounded like VenomfangX then. But anyway, simple answer, yes I do have the choice. If I want to stop following God, I can do so, or If I want to continue following God, I could do that. It is a choice, full stop.
one last thing, u call Jesus Christ a bully? r u serious? That awful!
Let's say you & me are in a dangerous part of Africa and arrive at a road-block while driving to the airport to fly home. It turns out they r savages that want a white man to murder for a film, but they gave me the choice. Either I can tell them to do it to u and drive away, or i can volunteer.
As for me, I will sing praises and give thanks everyday of my life that God came down in the flesh and paid the price of our sins so that we may enter heaven. Be thankful you have a choice at all! If it wasn't for Jesus, we would all go to hell. He died for you and you complain, all that shows is a complete lack of understanding.
so, you can honestly say that God is completely fair by giving you a choice of obeying him or suffering a fate worse than thousands of bees stining you to death or activating a trap door beneath you? What if your father gave you a choice to continue loving him or else he blows off your kneecaps with a shotgun and drowns you to death in the bathroom? Is that a loving father? No, and it's the same as a so-called loving God sending you to Hell if you don't love him.
No I can't, what would be fair is that we all get sent hell, as we have already chosen to disobey God right in the begining, all they had to do was not eat from the tree of knowledge, that was it! Yet they wanted equality with God, they choose to disobey the one who created them and gave them everything, by trying to gain equality with Him. After that, we all deserved hell, we don't even deserve a choice anymore, that would be fair.
LOL!! That made my day what you just said, that you, me, and everybody deserve torture over just a stupid piece of fruit? That's like ordering a 20-piece nugget at McDonald's, you get shorted a nugget so you have only 19 instead of 20 because the grill cook wanted to be funny and gip you just one nugget, and then you take a flamethrower and burn him to death over that.
That's not love, that's a cruel God who tortures you over something too small to even acknowledge!
its still a choice, so all u r doing is nit-picking, rather pointless vid if u ask me. Also since u hav never served God, do have any right to comment on wat its like? I would call that arrogance personally, as u make out its awful, but if u ask any Christian, its actually a great joy & pleasure.
Okay, let's roll play - You: You can be my friend or be tortured with a branding iron for ten years. You may freely choose. Me: That's not fair? I can't choose freely with the threat of torture. You: You're just nit picking. Me: You can't see how insane that sounds?
Fact is it didn't start that way, we had a choose to either eat the fruit of knowledge or not, we choose to and then good and evil had to be separated as we could then become tainted with evil. This is why we have heaven and hell. To separate good and evil. God didn't create whats in hell, only the place itself to contain evil. So don't blame him for what happens there, that's Satan, the one true evil one.
I posted this on Metacafe, where it generated a lot of discussion. Christians seem to think I'm unaware of the doctrine of Original Sin- I'm well aware of it. I also understand that there are other views- like the JW's. I am only addressing the logic of one mainstream view that is ubiquitous in Christianity.
Yep! I can certainly relate. I've recently made a video of my own entitled "Will I Burn in Hell for all Eternity?" asking my viewers how they would answer that question given that I don't believe Christianity is true. I was born into fundamentalist Christianity, and it took a very long time to deconvert from it.
excellent. It's just common sense thinking. But when people are told "Satan is working on you" when they do exercise critical thinking regarding the matter, then they won't allow any further thinking about it.
Even when i still believed in God I realised that if God was good and he knew his ways were just then he wouldn't need to force anyone to come round to his way of thinking. All he'd need to do was wait until we came around of our own free will.
A God that needs to invent hell is a God that doubts his own commandments. Only a God that doubts himself would worry that his commandments wouldn't make sense to people.
I'm never amazed how many ways satan tries to get people to believe his lies. This video is certainly a good example. Perhaps the author should gain some spitual wisdom before stating such nonsense & deliberate misleading omitted truth. God allows free will, if you should sin or error He also forgives you. There's nothing forced. That was the whole battle in Heaven between God & Satan.Get it right before you corrupt & turn those away from God.This is merely for the authors own lack of good will!
Pamelina1111 4 days ago
Very good points.. However, sadly for your sake is the fact that neither eternal torment nor free will exists in the Bible.
Aslak1Simonsen 6 months ago in playlist Free Will
I think the logic behind the analogy is a bit off. An assumed premise is that the person already accepted that there is a God and that they need to choose between heaven and hell. True, this is basically a 'non-choice', but we have the free will to choose to believe in the existence of God/heaven/hell. When there is this 'gun' to your head, the Christian believes there are live bullets in the gun. The atheist believes there are no bullets. The same applies to the value of the 'bribe'.
dunstantom 1 year ago
Free will in Christianity is a gift you are not allowed to use...
FollowerOfTheGods 1 year ago
I agree that some christians try to force God onto people to shoving the damnation of hell on them. However, I don't do that all I do is explain why you need and the benefits of accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. After that I let you chose on your own wether to accept my invitation on God;s behalf our reject it. But, I wll still love you and respect you as a true christian should. Freewill is a gift . Now you can take this anyway you want to. May God Bless You and Keep You.
mayjason84 1 year ago
1 year ago
Your free will is a slave to your heart which before salvation is stony. God never gave us a choice John 15:16 puts it plainly when it says Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. You have free will to choose whats right but before salvation you will not make the right choice.
And Yes !!! U can choose hell ..
allancc9000 1 year ago
One thing I know, "free will" is a doctrine of devils taught NOWHERE in the Bible. Fact is, we are predestinated. And secondly hell is not some place of eternal torture. Is that merciful a merciful god? Is that the merciful God I read about in the Bible a tyrant forever burning people? No! Hell is the grave. They are synonymous. In other words, when an unsaved person dies they are simply DEAD never to rise again. They don't experience anything at all. No consciousness. This is the Lord's mercy.
TearJerker2011 1 year ago
your experience with the church is obviously flawed. hell is not a systematic punishment, but a place where there is no god. god does not punish you at all! your free choice is to go back to god, or go away from god. god doesn't really "care" except for the fact that he would like you to be with him. if you don't want to go to gods party, go to the other one. the other one just doesn't have god there.
ZachariasClub 1 year ago
@aspirin99 one possible way to look at it is: Jesus in the Garden breathed life into Adam. A small portion of Jesus spirit/conciousness which exists outside of this dimension was attached to Adams lifeless body giving him life. That spirit passed through generations to us growing like a vine with many branches. In this sense we are all a part of God although we are not God. So from this perspective God is placing parts of himself into the lake of fire for eternity.
andrewprofit 1 year ago
The lake of fire is not the worst torment ever conceived. It can always be worse infinitly worse. We may have the perception of choice and free will but in practice our steps are ordered by God for our good or harm to accomplish his purpose in us. The decision is really to choose order or disorder. To choose order is to humbly align yourself with God's will. To choose disorder is to reject reality and substitute your own reality.
andrewprofit 1 year ago
Hell isnt like what your preacher said. Hell is like what Jesus said a extremely dry place in the spiritual dimension awaiting the resurrection and judgement. The lake of fire of molten sulfer is what the preacher is speaking about it is a future lake that will exist on the earth for eternity prepared for the rebellious angels. The rebellious angels goal is to take as many people as they can with them. However, meaningless this goal is.
andrewprofit 1 year ago
He will torture you forever in hell if you don't serve him, but he loves you!
HonestTechnoAtheist 1 year ago
VERY, VERY WELL Done!!!!!
Every Christian should watch, and more importantly,........THINK about this video for At least a couple of Hours!!
Awesome Job!!
EmeiBaguazhang 1 year ago
John 12:32 Jesus said, And if I be lifted up (die on the cross) I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto myself. When God's Judgments are administered in the Earth by the overcomers the inhabitants of the Earth will learn righteousness (Isa 26:9). It's during this time that unbelievers will be drawn to Christ, learn righteousness, and be saved (I Tim 2:4).
JAKEHARRIS281 1 year ago
I'm glad the Scriptures don't teach this. They mis-translated the Greek word aion as forever in the bible denoting endless duration. I will prove it doesn't mean forever punishment. Matthew 28:20 I am with you to the END of the AGE [Gk:Aion]. The Scriptures teach Judgment lasts for the ages not forever.
JAKEHARRIS281 1 year ago
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Sigh. Religion is so Man-made always trying to scare man in order to control. The Bible tells Christians to spread the Good News. Last time I checked telling people they are going to Hell is not Good News LOL. Yet you have crazies with their anti-gay hate signs shouting out they are going to Hell.
cateyefilms 1 year ago
Sigh. Religion is so Man-made always trying to scare man in order to control. The Bible tells Christians to spread the Good News. Last time I checked telling people they are going to Hell is not Good News LOL. Yet you have crazies with their anti-gay hate signs shouting out they are going to Hell.
cateyefilms 1 year ago
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Sigh. Religion is so corrupt always trying to scare people to control them. The Bible tells Christians to spread the Good News. Last time I checked telling people that they are going to Hell isnt Good News LOL. Yet you have crazy people with their anti-gay hate signs and shouting out how they are going to Hell
cateyefilms 1 year ago
Sigh. Religion is so corrupt always trying to scare people to control them. The Bible tells Christians to spread the Good News. Last time I checked telling people that they are going to Hell isnt Good News LOL. Yet you have crazy people with their anti-gay hate signs and shouting out how they are going to Hell
cateyefilms 1 year ago
The God described in this video is not the God of the Bible. The God of the bible chooses a group of people for his own glory and love for them to be with him in eternal glory. He does this because man is unable to choose for God in the first place, but is always prone to sin.
Heismightytosaveyou 2 years ago
You may have a free will to do anything you like but Choosing Jesus is still your choice and you can say no and not choosing Jesus would be a dumb one for sure.
If you think your being pushed into a choice here, well turn away from him and show him something, for a bunch of atheist will be with you in hell. Hey Dud , Go for it and show him something !
turtle4aire 2 years ago
Of course it's a choice, but that's not the question, though, is it? The question is whether or not you can freely choose. If you must choose or be tortured, you cannot freely choose. That is the discussion. Respond to the question: Can you freely choose between God or being tortured?
kennybellew 2 years ago 5
You sound as stupid as the Muslims out there. You don't seem to understand the most basic equations
Abbodine1 2 years ago
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God as given everyone a choice, Listen to your heart and make your choice, Real christians love Jesus and do not have to be scared into excepting him, and some people need to know the consequences for rejecting the love God has shown you....This video is Bs
ROBBBLOCO 2 years ago
God hasn't given us free will. He knows what's going to happened, he's always known, even before he created us. He knew who would turn to him for salvation and who wouldn't. We have as much free will as actors in a movie.
And real christians only turned to God in the first place for fear of hell. If there was no hell, attendance at church would be much lower. I assure you.
FuttBucker667 2 years ago 11
agreed....but I'm still confused on why it is that you capitalize the word god and why you talk about this mythical creature as if it actually created us.
It's fine to believe in a creator, but the belief, or even the appearance of a elief in Yahweh, is ridiculous.
jtrubilla 2 years ago
excepting???? Typical christian retard!
WTF does excepting mean?!
jtrubilla 2 years ago
LoL, thats answered my "is he a freak or not question"
Answer.. Yes! Cheers for another, long winded pointless reply.
Goodbye! n God bless your poor little soul!
dillydan88 3 years ago
What i'm realy curious about is, whether you beleive in certain stories in the bible such as, Moses, burning bushes, curing blind, rebirth, and Garden of Eden etc?
Answer this "straight" and i'm off your back
dillydan88 3 years ago
what i believe in?
well, philosophically that's a tough question because of the "brain in a vat"-theory, which means that the only thing i can know for sure iscogito ergo sum, i think therefore i am, but of course that's not all i believe in:
basically what i believe in is what science can prove, for example i have never seen or felt or in any other way been affected by a black hole, but since scientist can observe it and explain to me how it works, i believe in it...
micp4130 3 years ago
on the contrary, just as i have never experienced a lack hole i have never experienced god, but in the case with god scientist cannot explain to me how god works, how the miracles of jesus worked on a nuclear level, or anything like that, instead they say that everything in the bible is against the scientific rules... until the day that that you can go beyond philosophy and explain god on a scientific level i cannot believe in him...
micp4130 3 years ago
LoL now for mine and micp's clarity.
Are you now agreeing the bible and Chirtianity as a whole is "erroneous"? If so all your previous points are void.
Or will you be one of the VERY few Christians in history who have admited the bibles falseness?
dillydan88 3 years ago
1: tell me something i don't know
2: at what point have i been egotistic?
3: you've just made the perfect argument for why the bible shouldn't be trusted, and why arguments based on the bible aren't valid...
micp4130 3 years ago 2
LoL typical christian replies dude, you rely on some imaginary beings strength and i'll rely on my own.
I never have and never will need, Gods grace or whatever, when i see him, i'll beleive him.
PS all bible qoute replies and divine speeches are invalid points in ANY argument, so please use your head and back what you say up with facts before u choose to argue with me
dillydan88 3 years ago
LoL seriously wakener, instead of worshipping, some guy you read about and heard about in a fiction book, and through a style of "chinease whispers" aka Jesus (who is no doubt real) but is not who he is said to be.
How about worshipping a factual great man who deserves worship "THE ONE, THE ONLY................ Chaaarrles DAAARWIIIIN!!!!
Hes my jesus =P
dillydan88 3 years ago
"Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus is Lord."
well then shouldn't they all be saved from hell then? so then noone goes to hell and there is no use of it or what? you're full of shit...
"What chaos there would be if this phantom freewill nonsense really did exist."
welcome to the real world... piece of advice: learn something about existentialism...
micp4130 3 years ago
"The bible is a real book that still stands undiscredited by its attackers"
there are several videos here on youtube discrediting the bible, if you still believe that it's not discredited, well then you must be willfully ignoring it because there is no dispute in it: the bible is contradicting itself and as such it can't be as perfect and divine as you say it is...
micp4130 3 years ago 2
Also the bible has been discredited many many many times, in fact u can prob find a vid on YT.
It has not been discredited to christians simply because they refuse to see it.
And i am sorting i load "LOAD" of links which discredit the bible, in so many ways, but when you see this, you will simply see "god works in mysterious ways" "hmm fact or belief... i'll choose belief"
dillydan88 3 years ago
No i have simply ran out of energy to convince closed minded religious fools that ... well LOOK AT THE FACTs!
And i am from the UK so we don't use this acedemic major stuff, although my field is Physiotherepy, anatomy and personal training. But acedemics are irrelivent, in this situation. as when dealing with ppl who believe in supernatural, burning bushes and parting seas, all acedemics go out the window, and i find it hilarious to think you beleive this.
dillydan88 3 years ago
Dude STFU with your preaching, it has no place amongst intellectuals. there is neither fact nor logic in what you say, So pcik up a real book, and stop refering to the bible.
I read loads of fiction books, but i dont go around sayin "Many live that deserve death, and some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in judgement."
dillydan88 3 years ago
hehey, LotR quote^^
well, even though, it's still a great quote, and in your debate with theawaker7 i'm 100% on your side :)
micp4130 3 years ago
TY miccp4130. These ppl just can't seem to see what is right in front of their eyes. and when in doubt, shoot a load of nonsence quotes from the bible, which they also struggle to see the thousands of flaws with
dillydan88 3 years ago
1) Watch video over again
2) Open your mind
3) Use that mushy and extreamly complex thing which is protected by your thick skull, which people call a "brain"
dillydan88 3 years ago
they attack christian only always,not jews not muslims. we know way,they can stand jesus light,they are like a bat, they can see in the light,jesus is full of light. this is another bat,ready to fall and break his neck. in a sunny day...jesus is the king of kings....
MIRCAVA4EVER 3 years ago
they attack christian only always,not jews not muslims. we know way,they can stand jesus light,they are like a bat, they can see in the light,jesus is full of light. this is another bat,ready to fall and break his neck. in a sunny day...jesus is the king of kings....
MIRCAVA4EVER 3 years ago
thats because jews, are from the same religioun as christians, from the same story etc, and muslims, well we ALL know they are crazyier than all other religions and we dont need to explain, why, we know they see all others as infidels, etc. But christians live along side us and unfortunatly this disease of ignorance effects our friends and family, and the dont see why they are so dumb.
Plus to simplify, its the biggest religion, so if you wana take a hit at some1 you go for the top dog!
dillydan88 3 years ago
So now we're dogs, huh? I am so tired of being called dumb by a guy who can't even bother to spell correctly.
IgnisDivine444 3 years ago
I hjave to cut my spellings down as they dont fit in these boxes, DUMBASS!
An whered you get dog from LMAO! just another example of christians taking things literally and jumping to conclusions! Top dog is an expression used for ppl at the top of their league, Christians are probs the top religion, or at least most talked about
dillydan88 3 years ago
Well, I see your point. But I still feel offended. You do realize that we're PEOPLE, right?
Christians are people who just choose to believe in a loving God. It's our choice, so butt out! Can't you accept us? It's stupid that you preach acceptance, but can't find it in your heart to accept us! Get a grip.
IgnisDivine444 3 years ago
yeah i know, we can accept you and god etc, but its the religion we can't accept, or rather heavily disagree with. I accept you need a supporting figure to fall back on etc, but the religion is so false follow god, beleive he is their pray but, theres no need to preach and follow so many stupid, flase sayings
dillydan88 3 years ago
Well, I guess I can accept that. But still - do you have something against Christianity, or against religion in general?
IgnisDivine444 3 years ago
Religion in general, simply because i beleive only in real things, logical factual, explainable, tangable. As these r what make up reality.
The only supernatural/fictional things i beleive in r that which effect me, or i see/hear/touch etc or that i cn explain.
I liv by lots of strong morals, principles n values, treat everyone equal unless, they... well arn't equal, make very good choices, and care for many, and have acctual saved a few lives. But religion still says im goin to hell LoL
dillydan88 3 years ago
Anyway, we are all, different, some to take life and embrace it with real things, some chose to embrace it with things they hold dear which may not be real, be make life more bearable and pleasent for them.
In the end we are all here to survive, care for ourselfs and families. And love.
The ones we should realy be arguing with are those who choose crime, hate, and ultimatly make terrible choices
dillydan88 3 years ago
Exactly. I'm actually tired of these videos. They're so hypocritical, don't you think?
IgnisDivine444 3 years ago
Unfortuanately not, its a welcome break from preaching for me lol, but thats my opinion, i can see ur side tho. its like someone preaching the bible to me i guess lol.
And TBH sadly, i was gona do a similer video, but on why the human race are "cance" LMAO, i could imagine the arguments coming from that lol.. Well anyway, our petty arguments mean nothing to The universe or God, althought they unfortunatly effect our poor planet =(
dillydan88 3 years ago
LMAO!! thats cause those old exentric bastards thousands of years ago new there will be people in the future who use their head and use knowlage, and facts rather than what that old bloke wrote whilst he was pissed on "Gods blood" (wine) lmao.
Live your life by a book with no evidence and a load of jibberish sperted by exentric old men, and i'll live my life, do good, care for my environment, myself and others. and see what happens when the lights goe out. SO PLEASE!! enjoy your deluded life
dillydan88 3 years ago
BUT...... another guy goes " HI God... wel i have raped 20 kids killed their parents and stole everything i owns, BUT..... I'm sorry and i beleive in you"
God replies...
"Not a problem my son, you have harmed many ppl but you can come into paradise n enjoy all the pleasures you imagined, including loads of lil kids.... after all i sent that loving rightous doctor who didnt beleive in me to hell. so take his place HOHOHO"
LMAO Christianity is soooo contridictory!!
dillydan88 3 years ago
OMG!!!! i love this video, its so true, but he should have put *if god is omni everything, he knows all, reads minds, understands all etc. BUT... yet he says "i dont care if ur a doctor who saved 1000 people and lived right treated urself and family and naegbors right.... you dont believe in me therefore your going to suffer the worst torment for eternity!!!!"
dillydan88 3 years ago
Lets forget about being Bible scholars and deal with what we have that is so simple people don't get it.
chicosounds 3 years ago
You so don't understand Christianity. There's so much more to it than that.
Have you ever heard of Newtonian physics? "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction." Message me later for explanation of that - I'd be happy to elaborate. However, I don't want to be a nuisance by preaching to people who won't listen, so please listen to me with an open mind. :)
IgnisDivine444 3 years ago
You don't seem to understand where the argument comes from, it may be an exaggeration, but the point is explained thoroughly.
If you want to use an argument for Christianity using Newtonian physics, you have to understand that physics work with what's testable, observable, and repeatable... like science. To say that the Christian god exists, is to say that the laws of physics, due to what the Bible says is true, are completely false, due to the defiance of them in the Bible.
sonic8005 3 years ago
What you and most Christians don't understand is that no decision ever made is worth an eternity of punishment. You are brainwashed by what was written in the bible and you just happen to believe every word of it.
What kind of a monster would I be if I set it up so that someone who doesn't choose to be with me ends up being tortured even for just 2 minutes, let alone eternity? I'm all-powerful, but I SET IT UP that way!
Steveman27 3 years ago 3
Well...
First of all, it isn't what you do that condemns you. It's what you choose to do that condemns you. Besides, God is a loving God - yes, we're sinful by nature, and we are deserving of hell, but he chose to DIE, in the most excruciating way imaginable EVEN TODAY, in order to give us a way to be with him.
So, isn't it reasonable that we need to CHOOSE to be with him? It isn't exactly that far of a stretch. I mean, COME ON - Jesus did absolutely NOTHING to deserve that. Why ELSE would he?
IgnisDivine444 3 years ago
Your religion is just downright repulsive. Are you perfectly OK with the idea that he tortures people forever even as they change their mind because they want the torture to stop?
Can you at least have the same kind of fun in Heaven that you can have here? Can a virgin finally have sex and foreplay the opposite sex when he or she is in Heaven?
Steveman27 3 years ago
"God is a loving God"
Have you read The Old Testament?
suexian 3 years ago
U just sprouted some right shit ignis, listen to urself and use ur brian plz
dillydan88 3 years ago
Indeed my friends, the problem is all it takes is 1 crazy deluded person and they bring their entire family up christian, and give theri children no choice on what they belive as for the first years of their life they have this choice to answer to and at that age u will choos god, and unless they develop braincels and true free will, they wont think for themselves, they will turn to the bible!
dillydan88 3 years ago
Furthermore, with story of the rich man and Lazurus, the part about the rich man ending up in hell and being there forever is made up because you cannot be held accountable for either place unless you actually seen and experienced them beforehand.
Steveman27 3 years ago
Newtonian physics? Come on. Why would the reaction be eternal when the action is finite? Some spirit comes up and ask God why he's being tortured "Because he didn't choose me." And the guy asks "How long now?" God says "1755 years." The guy would be like "WTF kind of a sadistic moneter are you!?"
Who the fuck would actually CHOOSE to be tortured? COME ON. I wouldn't and I can't anyone in their right mind who would. The Christian God is cruel because if you DON'T choose him, look what happens.
Steveman27 3 years ago 2
Nice work!
LeapinLarryLipschitz 3 years ago 3
Bob is about to choose between the two rings. If Bob chooses ring B, God does not exist! God is omniscient and has known since the "beginning of eternity" that Bob will choose ring A. Therefore, if God exists, there is no possible world where Bob can choose ring B!
Either Bob has Free Will, (contrary to the Laws of Nature), and God does not exist or Bob does not have Free Will and God is guilty of all the crimes in the World past, present and future! OR neither "Free Will" nor "God" exists.
VeridicusX 3 years ago
Bob and Alice are transexuals who recently got married. They've been together for some years now and Bob sets out to buy an eternity ring for Alice. God knows that in a short while Bob will be "choosing" between two eternity rings, ring A and ring B. God knows that Bob will choose ring A. God has always known that Bob will choose ring A. Before Bob existed, before the Human race existed, even before the "foundation of the World" God knew this.
VeridicusX 3 years ago
Free Will seems to be part of the same myth of "God". God made everything but there is "evil" in the world. How did "evil" get there? Personal beings must have exercised their "Free Will" contrary to the will of God (and the Laws of Nature). In order to achieve this impossibiity people have "souls" which can operate independently of physical laws. These souls can make choices that are neither caused by what went before, nor acausally random (or pseudo-random), or any combination of these two.
VeridicusX 3 years ago
Excellent video Aspirin99!
The "Free Will" doctrine is the baseless assertion that humans possess the magical ability to choose an action that is neither the result of blind chance nor the result of previous causes, that is, Free Will is neither indeterministic nor deterministic.
VeridicusX 3 years ago
This video is to address the abusive psychological effects of people threatening children with hell. As to your ideas, I think you greatly over simplify the issue of Freewill, which is a broader issue that I am not trying to address in this video on doctrine.
Aspirin99 3 years ago
Actually the "simplification" as you call it is the application of Occam's Razor. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1975) defines "free will" as "the power asserted of moral beings of choosing within limitations or with respect to some matters without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law." And the part about "without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law" is what is commonly meant when the term free will / freewill is used. Christians believe that (GoTo2)
unseenstrings 3 years ago
(2) what an omnipotent god "wants" can be superseded by the human will. And they believe that an omniscient god can be surprised by a human choice. Then when the Christian "deconverts," in most cases he believes humans have the ability to make choices that supersede physical necessity or causal law. The illusion is so prevalent that even Richard Dawkins tries to steer clear of the freewill issue in order to keep his major objection about religion from being sidetracked. So, I know what you mean.
unseenstrings 3 years ago
The video was pretty good except you seem to be missing the point. Every major religion that I know of teach the doctrine of freewill. The teaching helps conceal the fact that humans can be coerced and manipulated with treats of punishment or promises of reward. And the point you seem to miss is, if free will were true no threat of punishment or promise of reward could possibly have any effect on human choice behavior. Thus the Fundamentalist Belief you need to overcome is the belief in Freewill
unseenstrings 3 years ago
So, if someone threatens you with torture if you don't do something, you're saying you are still freely choosing? I think you need a little less fiction in your thinking.
Aspirin99 3 years ago
I'm saying that it is still a choice, yes you can call it other things, but to deny that it is still a type of choice is to deny logic. If you can 'choose' one or the other, its still a choice, that really shouldn't be hard to understand, if you want to add other labels to it, that's fine, go for it. But you can't say it's not a choice when it obviously still is.
fromfictiontofact 3 years ago
No one is arguing that it's not a "choice". The argument is whether it is a freely made choice. A choice made under duress of torture is not one that is freely made; therefore, as seen from this doctrine, there would be no freewill.
Aspirin99 3 years ago
Indeed Aspirin, and which in many cases is a choice which is made by ur Christian parents, bringing u up with the choice (belive and enjoy pleasure) or dont beleive and be tortured for eternity
dillydan88 3 years ago
LoL i have just seen 1 part of your comment and dont need to read further unless, u are athiest then ignore this comment.
But you said "but to deny that it is still a type of choice is to deny logic" but there are ABSOLUTLY NO religiouns that allow logic, the fact of a omni-everything being is not logical, Moses parting the sea is not logical, heaven and hell arnt logical, and a burning bush is not logical. the entire bible does not allow logic!
An fact n logic r the only thigs which r real!
dillydan88 3 years ago
Did you watch the video? It's addressing the point that the threat of torture removes the ability to chose freely. If you threaten me with torture if I don't do what you want, that's pretty much forcing me to do what you want.
Aspirin99 3 years ago
pretty much forcing, isn't actually forcing.
If free-will didn't exist,
everyone would choose God,
yet they don't,
therefore; free-will exists.
Case closed tbh.
fromfictiontofact 3 years ago
If the downside to being human is eternal pain and torment after you die where as animals don't have to worr about this, then being human is a terrible burden and we are cursed for being humans.
Why would you think ANYONE deserves eternal pain after they die just because of a 1 or 2 bad choices?
And that's why I refuse to believe all that crap that you Christians buy into with Chrsitianity. I have more compassion that you do. If my mom or dad were burning in Hell, I'd be pissed off.
Steveman27 3 years ago
"If the downside to being human is eternal pain and torment after you die where as animals don't have to worr about this, then being human is a terrible burden and we are cursed for being humans."
I think you are forgetting about heaven, the unqualified reward we can inherit not of our own merit, but of the Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. That's not a burden, that's a glorious joy!
fromfictiontofact 3 years ago
Please stop filling the comments with sermons. Stick to the discussion of freewill.
Aspirin99 3 years ago
"Why would you think ANYONE deserves eternal pain after they die just because of a 1 or 2 bad choices?"
Because they realize that God is Holy and man is evil. We can never fully comprehend the extent of our wickedness and the extent of God's goodness. We are like an ant comparing our self to another ant and saying "I'm pretty big" but until we come face to face with say, the sun, we cannot comprehend just how small we are. In the same way, we do not realize how wicked we are and how Holy God is
fromfictiontofact 3 years ago
Another thing to bare in mind; God did not create hell to punish anyone & it is not a place of fire, the fire is not literal, it represents the sensations experienced while being separated from God. Hell is eternal separation from God. Right through your life, with every choice you make, you are either choosing God (good) or choosing the devil (evil) & at the end of your life, you get what you choose, God won't force anyone to be with Him, you have to choose Him, heaven & hell are the end result
fromfictiontofact 3 years ago
"fromfictiontofact",
If the only other alternative from choosing what someone wants you to do is pure torment, that is not a real choice, because no one wants to be tortured, not even God himself, so you really don't have a choice at all.
For example, if your father tells you to NOT step on the gas when driving his car or he'll cut off your foot with a rusty chainsaw, you have no choice but to avoid stepping on the gas at all costs!!!
Steveman27 3 years ago
But God is gracious, sent His son to die for our sins, to satisfy justice and told us, all you have to do is turn from your sin, believe that Jesus died for you and you will be saved, not because of anything you have done, but because of what I have done for you. So your right, it's not fair at all, not fair on Jesus.
Also bare in mind, if no one had free-will to choose God, everyone would have chosen God, but some haven't. Therefore; free-will exists, plain and simple.
fromfictiontofact 3 years ago
I enjoyed this video very much. When are you going to come out with more like this? i get a kick out of these and other videos that state the true fact that Christianity is all about threats. I've also enjoyed "Gisburne2000" and "azsuperman01" videos.
Please make more. Thank you.
Steveman27 3 years ago
My GOd help those who scare people into christianity they will be held responsible for every body they draw away from God i hope u Understand aspirin Are u still a believer?? are u gonna let a few peoples views draw u away from God who do u believe God who loves you or human beings who are sinful by nature?
mj4lyfe101 3 years ago
Peace, my friend. I don't mean to be argumentative. I'm only addressing what I see as a psychologically harmful practice- especially to children.
Aspirin99 3 years ago
God creates a planet, and beings to inhabit it, with freewill, and everything they need. Some of them are good, and He likes them. Some of them are evil, and He doesn't want them in His house.
God is fair and just. When you lie down to sleep at night, it is God who sustains you. You are like a sitting duck for half your life. Lying there, prone, hurtling through space. God does not need to supply you with oxygen. God does not need you. You need God though. You need God.
PhilippeDeChampaigne 3 years ago
You make a lot of assumptions there. However, none of them address the point made in the video. Using torture as a threat against anyone who doesn't agree to love you removes that person's ability to freely choose to love.
Aspirin99 3 years ago
If I say black, you will say white.
Take care.
PhilippeDeChampaigne 3 years ago
That isn't it! Not at all!!! Seriously, I'd go into it, but I don't have time. I'm going to Winterfest in a few hours. :)
IgnisDivine444 3 years ago
In hardcore christianity there is no choice other than god.
If allah is arabian's superhero...
God is the christian sheep hearder.
And we all know what sheep herders do.
firedog501 3 years ago
I got into a shouting match with a fundamentalist Christian over this. He accused me of not taking responsibility for my sin and choosing God. Supposedly, I cite the fact that since I likely never believed to start with, I wasn't chosen by God to believe at all. How does that make me hide behind his dogma? If it was your God who created me, I don't see why he did created me because I doubt his existence now.
It makes no sense whatsoever.
opinionhead444 3 years ago
Yep, that's pretty much how it's supposed to go down. It seems to me that a perfect being would be beyond these kind of tactics. How can a finite sin be punished infinitely. It just doesn't make sense. Speaking of infinite, why wasn't Jesus sent to hell for all eternity? It would seem an adequate trade for our eternal punishment.
MarkL3055 3 years ago
maybe u should study the holy bible some more cause this video is totally false the whole thing is that god gave us free will we have souls we are the only beings that have souls dog's dont them cats dont and fish or any animal for that matter they all are forced to obey god but since we have a soul we can choice weather or not to obey god's word and his will read a bible or better yet study Christianity before making a video like this again u are giving people the wrong wrong information
mj4lyfe101 3 years ago
This video addresses what some people believe and preach- It's not so much about the Bible. I'm talking about people who scare little kids with the idea that a God will torture them if they do not love Him. Are you saying that you don't think people are saying that on a regular basis? Of course they are. That's what this video is against.
Aspirin99 3 years ago
any one who scares little kids into thinking that God will torture them is not a christian to start with dont be around "fake" christians im against people trying to put fear into peoples hearts also but the people doing that are wrong and fyi God do NOT torture anybody we all deserve to die because of our sins we are all bad but U should THANK GOD that he sent us a redemer I said study the beliefs more before u question our free will and why People are sent to hell they sent them selfs there
mj4lyfe101 3 years ago
It sounds like you agree with my video then.
Aspirin99 3 years ago
yes pretty much But we do have free will
mj4lyfe101 3 years ago
Good Video. When a preacher says there is a hell for those who don't follow the word of God, then logically there is no free will. To use the threat of hell, whether casually mention or shoved down you thoat, it doesn't matter. Do what I say or face hell eliminates any option. You have to obey what your religion says because no sane person given the option of eternal hell would choose hell.
padraicbg 3 years ago
Thank you for your video. You raise some valid points about the way some preachers go about their so called good work. Spiritual blackmail is a disgrace, especially directed towards children who are very impressionable and can be scarred for life. But please don't let the actions of one confused pastor blind you from the amazing sacrifice Jesus made for us, none of us know exactly what hell is like but I imagine it might be the same as my life on earth before I accepted Christ and His love.
beaumanton 3 years ago
I made this video because I was angry over what I perceived to be emotional abuse (especially to children) by over zealous fundamentalist Christians.
I do not mean to insult all of Christianity. I apologize that it comes across this way.
Aspirin99 3 years ago
Okay, it's still free will. But, if god demands everyone to be perfect and follow a specific dogma, why did he give humans free will in the first place? He basically wanted everyone the same.
jackbauer6543 4 years ago
1) he doesn't demand that everyone be perfect, if he did, everyone would goto Hell.
2) he gave us free-will as the ultimate sign of love, so that we weren't simply God praising robots. He loves us so much that He gives us the choice to abandon Him.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
he gave us a choice, but also punishes us for choosing what he doesn't want us to choose. Not much of a choice.
top2d2 4 years ago
PS I am very sorry to hear about your church and their hell-fire preaching style, that is not the way to preach, that is not what the Bible teaching, that is not how Jesus spoke and they have clearly given you the wrong impression. I deeply deeply apologize on their behalf.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
If we go back to my road-block example in Africa, would you be annoyed that I gave you the choice to fly home, instead of being murdered? Or would you just be grateful that I offered to die for you?
Once you understand how much I appreciate having that choice, you will understand why I don't care that I have to choose, Im just so grateful that I can choose.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
And finally the main point (in the bigger picture)
is the fact that no one (who believes in Jesus Christ) cares that we have to choice him or hell and anyone that has a problem with having to choice God or hell, is insanely stupid not to appreciate the fact that they CAN choose and they are not just going to hell, as we ALL would of if it wasn't for Jesus.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
As a believer, I was always horrified at the morality of Hell and it seems inconceivable that you can say that all Christians have no problem with it. That's just ignorant and callow. Ever heard of the 7th Day Adventists?
You still have not addressed the original issue. A decision that is forced under the threat of extreme torment is called duress- not freewill. What is illogical about that?
Aspirin99 4 years ago
Man you just don't get it do you. Last time dude...
1) Definition of the word free-will "made or done freely or of one's own accord" No one forces you to believe in God, we choose to. That is free-will, like it or not.
2) My point of saying all believers in Jesus do not care about having to make a choice to believe in him or not is because they appreciate the opportunity so much.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
Free will means ur free to do what u want u can serve him or not God do not force him self on people What u are doing now is free will If u did not have free will then u would be forced to serve him like angels do but God gave u a choice while u are on this earth choice wisely why do u think human beings were created think about that.
mj4lyfe101 3 years ago
My point though (along the lines of your massively narrow minded argument)
is that I have the free-will to choose/select to option to serve or deny God. If it wasn't a choice, if there wasn't free-will, you wouldn't see anyone who doesn't serve God. It is a choice, THAT'S A FACT. Sorry your video is not logically viable.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
And man this is so stupid "we have to choose between heaven or hell, thats not really a choice" (Yes is is, but anyway)
How about "PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY FOR HE CAME DOWN IN THE FLESH AND BORE MASSIVE PAIN AND TORTURE SO THAT WE MAY LIVE!"
You ungrateful so and so ^^
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
Again, a choice that, when not followed, results in punishment, is not a choice that can be freely made. That is the crux of the freewill problem. The severity of the punishment truly is like a gun to our head. That is far, far from a choice that is freely made.
Aspirin99 4 years ago
1) you completely ignored my points. Nobody (who knows Jesus) actually cares, all they care about is the fact that he died for our sins so that we may have eternal life. That's ALL that matters. Being fussy about it not being a totally fair choice is just stupidity.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
And mothers of suicide bombers don't care that their child is blown to paste... how is that a point for or against the morality of the event?
Preaching hell is emotionally damaging to children, especially since the whole doctrine is ludicrous. You use hell as a gun to the head of any wavering child. Shame on you.
Aspirin99 4 years ago
EXCUSE ME!? HOW DARE YOU! There is no shame on me and you have no right to say such things or be so judgmental. I do a huge amount to help this world so don't you dare insult me by trying to place shame on me, just last night I was out of the streets feeding the homeless, praying for them and giving them hope. I make a very big effort so their can be no shame placed on me. And I do not hell-fire preach, so don't assume I do. I don't do it or agree with it.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
So the fact that anyone who believes in Jesus is too blinded and sheep-like to care that the choice they're being given is no choice at all means what to us, exactly? I don't get what point you're trying to make. That true followers are too stupid (the impression you're giving, not my belief) to realize they're being tricked and cheated with a fake version of free-will?
TurboFool 4 years ago
he gave us all a choice u can obey him and live with him or u can continue to live without him God do not force him self on you but if u choice to reject life then u can not be mad if you die thats all im saying live ur life how u want to but we all will have to give acount to God one day and dont say nobody did not tell u
mj4lyfe101 3 years ago
So, if someone gives you a choice, but you know you will be tortured if you chose one way over the other- Your saying that that is still a choice freely made?
Aspirin99 3 years ago
I come back to the car, tell u they need to murder someone and that I will volunteer to do it so u can fly home to ur family. All I ask is that u remember me and thank me for doing it. That's not a bully, that's a beautiful act of love. That's not a bribe, that a beautiful gesture of love.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
Nothing you've said changes the problem. The question is - Can you freely choose to serve God? If you are punished for not serving God, you cannot freely choose. It's a commandment with horrific torture for breaking. You might as well change your theology. There's no way around it.
Aspirin99 4 years ago
lol you sounded like VenomfangX then. But anyway, simple answer, yes I do have the choice. If I want to stop following God, I can do so, or If I want to continue following God, I could do that. It is a choice, full stop.
Also; u think the car example isn't a choice?
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
one last thing, u call Jesus Christ a bully? r u serious? That awful!
Let's say you & me are in a dangerous part of Africa and arrive at a road-block while driving to the airport to fly home. It turns out they r savages that want a white man to murder for a film, but they gave me the choice. Either I can tell them to do it to u and drive away, or i can volunteer.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
I really like the effects on your video though ^^ where did you get them?
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
You can complain about it if you want.
As for me, I will sing praises and give thanks everyday of my life that God came down in the flesh and paid the price of our sins so that we may enter heaven. Be thankful you have a choice at all! If it wasn't for Jesus, we would all go to hell. He died for you and you complain, all that shows is a complete lack of understanding.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
"fromfictiontofact",
so, you can honestly say that God is completely fair by giving you a choice of obeying him or suffering a fate worse than thousands of bees stining you to death or activating a trap door beneath you? What if your father gave you a choice to continue loving him or else he blows off your kneecaps with a shotgun and drowns you to death in the bathroom? Is that a loving father? No, and it's the same as a so-called loving God sending you to Hell if you don't love him.
Steveman27 3 years ago
No I can't, what would be fair is that we all get sent hell, as we have already chosen to disobey God right in the begining, all they had to do was not eat from the tree of knowledge, that was it! Yet they wanted equality with God, they choose to disobey the one who created them and gave them everything, by trying to gain equality with Him. After that, we all deserved hell, we don't even deserve a choice anymore, that would be fair.
fromfictiontofact 3 years ago
"fromfictiontofact",
LOL!! That made my day what you just said, that you, me, and everybody deserve torture over just a stupid piece of fruit? That's like ordering a 20-piece nugget at McDonald's, you get shorted a nugget so you have only 19 instead of 20 because the grill cook wanted to be funny and gip you just one nugget, and then you take a flamethrower and burn him to death over that.
That's not love, that's a cruel God who tortures you over something too small to even acknowledge!
Steveman27 3 years ago
its still a choice, so all u r doing is nit-picking, rather pointless vid if u ask me. Also since u hav never served God, do have any right to comment on wat its like? I would call that arrogance personally, as u make out its awful, but if u ask any Christian, its actually a great joy & pleasure.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
Okay, let's roll play - You: You can be my friend or be tortured with a branding iron for ten years. You may freely choose. Me: That's not fair? I can't choose freely with the threat of torture. You: You're just nit picking. Me: You can't see how insane that sounds?
Aspirin99 4 years ago
Fact is it didn't start that way, we had a choose to either eat the fruit of knowledge or not, we choose to and then good and evil had to be separated as we could then become tainted with evil. This is why we have heaven and hell. To separate good and evil. God didn't create whats in hell, only the place itself to contain evil. So don't blame him for what happens there, that's Satan, the one true evil one.
fromfictiontofact 4 years ago
you seem like a good guy right on the track.. subscribed!
XNeutralxGreyX 4 years ago
good video
XNeutralxGreyX 4 years ago
I posted this on Metacafe, where it generated a lot of discussion. Christians seem to think I'm unaware of the doctrine of Original Sin- I'm well aware of it. I also understand that there are other views- like the JW's. I am only addressing the logic of one mainstream view that is ubiquitous in Christianity.
Aspirin99 4 years ago
I'll reply tomorrow.
paulmcfarland 4 years ago
Couldn't be more true. Thanks for making this, hopefully more will creat similar videos to get the word out!
wright3 4 years ago
My compliments.
spblat 4 years ago
Yep! I can certainly relate. I've recently made a video of my own entitled "Will I Burn in Hell for all Eternity?" asking my viewers how they would answer that question given that I don't believe Christianity is true. I was born into fundamentalist Christianity, and it took a very long time to deconvert from it.
TheMathGuy 4 years ago
Wow, nice graphics. If I had graphics like that I'd make videos, too.
zacharelli 4 years ago
Agreed, the graphics on this are great. but the message is better :)
KT45 4 years ago
I subscribed to your videos. I laughed so hard at the water cooler atheist.
Aspirin99 4 years ago
Hmmm. servitude and praise OR tortue...
We have a name for this system: SLAVERY.
sciencedoggy 4 years ago
excellent. It's just common sense thinking. But when people are told "Satan is working on you" when they do exercise critical thinking regarding the matter, then they won't allow any further thinking about it.
PaineLover 4 years ago
I've been saying this stuff for years.
Even when i still believed in God I realised that if God was good and he knew his ways were just then he wouldn't need to force anyone to come round to his way of thinking. All he'd need to do was wait until we came around of our own free will.
A God that needs to invent hell is a God that doubts his own commandments. Only a God that doubts himself would worry that his commandments wouldn't make sense to people.
Technoidmania 4 years ago