It's NOT about who was better everybody! It's about the fact that it was PROVEN that the French Judge was pressured/paid by the Russian federation to vote for the Russian pair team, no matter what. If that had not been proven, this would have been one of those examples (and there are many) of 5-4 decisions that are argued about forever.
In this case, however, it was the first time corruption was actually acknowledged at the Olympic games by the ISU.
The Russian and French federations are solely to blame for the distruction of the 6.0 system, and now we are left with the code of points, which is fine for hard core fans, but makes it much less exciting for general audiences.
Ironically (and absurdly), the Russian federation blamed Plushenko's silver medal in Vancouver 2010 on the "flawed" code of points." The very judging system THEY single-handedly forced into place b/c of outright corruption. Unbelievable.
Biggest scam is skating history. The ISU is all sorts of fucked up for allowing those judges to continue. New system would have had them with gold without a doubt.
@AllstarCanadian And they accused the USA of cheating when Lysacek won the gold in men's figure skating because the Russians couldn't land their jumps clean..
We all know Jamie and David easily won, but people need to stop bashing the Russians. They are probably extremely embarrassed, they know they didn't truly win, and they didn't ask to be put in to that mess.
Jamie and David should have won that gold medal ONLY! The Russians were GIVEN their medal..they shoul be SILVER medalists...boy, did that piss me off!!!
I think her lack of adequate deodorant was the deciding factor. Judges don't want to see sweat stains on a skater as they're trying to be "graceful." You know what I mean?
I don't know how many times I have watched this video, or how many times I have commented on it. I love this piece of art. It is so beautiful. It brings me to tears every time I watch it, still after all these years.
It is a shame that once again bad judging has led to fights among people involved with the sports, because this program deserves to be remembered for its beauty and not the controversy surrounding the results. Everything fits so well with the music. It's a true work of art.
@pescadorfundido Oh....I guess you don't remember Tonya Harding CRYING!!!....because her skates weren't tied tight enough.....and she got her second chance.... 1994 Lillehammer
@pescadorfundido Oh....I guess you don't remember Tonya Harding CRYING!!!....because her skates weren't tied tight enough.....and she got her second chance....
@ngogol and how Bayoul opened her own lace after she missed the 3Lz in the short and could reskate the whole program (in those days it was left for skater s to choose from where to start if something happened to their clothes) and nailed the 3lz ending in 1st place!
The composition really brings out the emotion of their movement and choreography; sent shivers down my spine. I really didn't believe perfection existed until I saw these two.
Anyone know what the score called?? It really touched me while watching this.
I am Russian and I admire skillful, talented figure-skaters from all over the world. However, I can't say Jamie Sale and David Pelletier outperformed Elena and Anton. Not a chance! Wake up and smell the coffee!
@Patrickibens I remember some ice dancing competitions....out of the spotlight of the Olympics....and the corruption that has occurred with the judges in those competitions..
I like figure skating but a lot less since 2002. Figure skating should not be part of the olympics. Anything judged should not be in the olympics. Even with the changes they have made it's still so corrupt and now the judges themselves are kept secret to protect them. Terrible!
this is very very good but I still think russia was better presentation wise. They were just more elegant and the flow was better. Plushenko getting the silver in 2010 was much more of an injustice as these guys getting the silver.
@trophymursky: The "injustice" you feel Plushenko faced in 2010 was a direct result of what the Russian Fed. did in 2002 Salt Lake. So, they have absolutely no right to talk at all about injustice. I'm sorry.
All the Russian lovers...take a breath. The Canadians didn't stumble, so there. Crooked scoring almost ruined the sport and nearly got it kicked out of the Olympics.
Take out all the tricks and what have you? No line, his posture is atrocious, no real edge quality, average speed, and cute choreography. Years after the fact, it seems a mystery as to why there was any controversy.
I wish they had worn better costumes. This was the Olympics, not a golf game. They skated very well. I'll leave it to the experts to decide if they deserved the gold.
The bit I find odd about the whole scandal is the assumption that the French judge would automatically rank the "Western" Skaters higher. Why should she? 4 other judges shared the opinion of the French judge. It seems the media had crowned the winners and then weren't happy with the actual result. Now the judging system is not more transparent and is also open to criticism.
I AM pregnant, so it may just be hormones, but I remember being in tears when I watched this live in 2002, and I am in tears again watching it now! Love it.
I am generally a fan of the COP but it does eliminate some beautiful moments in skating .... 3:16-3:52 is one of the most beautifully choreographed pairs moments in my memory but under COP that would not get them the marks proffered by ugly catch leg positions and awkward hand changes in spirals
i do not know who those judges were watching but it was not these skaters. i have never seen such perfection . they deserved a perfect score and then some.
@PeaceLoveAndSKs well i am happy to introduce to you, the best ice dancers in the world! their olympic free dance was breath taking if i do say so! please, youtube it! and let me know what you think? :) ♥
Very deserved SECOND place. The style of Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, many inventive moves by greate coach Tamara Moskvina... and this simple performance... No! Only second place!
@chicagoguy19 omg i know they are sore losers like when America won the 1980 hockey olympics. I am American and I still say that Canada deserved to win the gold here not silver!
@bemar1972 ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! ARE YOU A MORON?!!!!!!!!!! fuck you and your fucking stupid second place, they DESERVED the GOLD and they FUCKING GOT THE GOLD IN THE END BECAUSE THEY WERE THE BEST you piece of shit shut the fuck up and dont you dare speak about CANADIANS again...you have NO RIGHT tooo dick
@seanpenn100 hmm at what point did music choice become pertinent. They skated flawlessly. As I recall the Russian pair fell. Listen to the crowd again S.P., they saw the routines and made a far better call than the bribed judges.
What about Kim Yuna at Worlds this year? Some of the other women (less known) skated much cleaner and much more artistically, too. Yet, she got silver. I am just confused by this.
What about Kim Yuna at Worlds this year? Some of the other women (less known) skated much cleaner and much more artistically, too. Yet, she got silver. I am just confused by this.
IMO, the Russians' program was faster and more stylish (more flair), but I feel that this pair deserved to share the gold based solely on the fact that the French judge confessed to allowing influence to effect her mark. Period. B/C she did that, and her mark was rightfully thrown out, it was a tie.
Personally, I think this program is not as "classic" and "artistic" as the commentators would have us believe. I thought it was good, but not brilliant. There's a spark missing for me.
I'm aware they won't change it back to 6.0/ But I also think the current system will likely get a drastic overhaul or they will change to something else. Too many fans are getting turned off. Without fans there is not a sport.
Figure skating scoring systems will always be debated whatever it is. Let's just say the current system prevents the ugly conspiracy from happening again, right?
@hmsrenown Only because instead of creating all the mass hysteria that led to the current system, the media now has to spend so much time explaining the current system.
Progression of the sport like progression of any nation or human in general, is a gradual process, so one step to clean-up scandals is never a bd thing. I applaud ISU for fixing this problem, now it's up to them to come up with a better system for the sake of the sport and us spectators.
Except the sport is regressing because of this scoring system. Edge work is often sloppy, very poor skating skills, move in the field are often absent. Many skaters are now just rushing through their programs. And now the skaters who have only skated under this system suffer . Even if they do change the scoring system, it may be too late to save the sport.
You're right...someone to take gold without a quad-axel in men's figure skating took me by surprise because I wasn't following quite closely on the system and how it exactly works, but I'd take a step back to prevent another scandal anyday. Of course, now the onus is on ISU to make significant improvisation on this system for the advancement of the sport.
...quad-axels don't exist (as of yet). More to the point, I fail to see why someone needs a quadruple jump to win the men's event. Plushenko was sloppy on the jumps - tilting massively in the air. Yes he landed them, but that's not the point. And I think people seem to be remembered the old system with high levels of nostalgia. Many of the programs were heavy loaded in technical aspects and discarded the artistic. Most importantly, it was way too subjective and far too biased *points to vid*
I agree, the new system rewards the overall package. You get more points for the more you do, the quad doesn't make up for everything else, if everything else is below par. Also, the old system was very subjective, the new system outlines clearly what the judges should be looking at. Sure, it means skaters are required to finish all elements, but you see that the most artistic ones are still the ones that win in the end, so this talk about loss of artistry under the new system is meaningless.
Actually I have seen many skaters medal with very little artistry. The Zhangs at every event where they have medaled. Miki Ando at 2009 Worlds. In each case there was massive overscoring on the second mark. Even though they didn't medal, Dube and Davison were overscored at the Olympics just recently. Plushenko's poorly choreographed program and bad air positions at the recent Olympics, still won silver. It is horrific.
In your earlier comment about the new system favoring performances that are poor quality in artistry, you used Kim Yuna as an example of someone who is over scored. It's the opposite, because even though she doesn't do the triple axle, she still wins BECAUSE of her artistry. The new system does make skaters rush to complete their elements, but it ultimately rewards artistry. Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir of ice dancing won, for eg. because they had the best artistry.
No that is not the reason. I was explaining that the commentators who causes so much hysteria over the 2002 Olympics, don't have time now because so much time is taken in explaing the scoring system. I don't like the system because it makes skating robotic. Not to mention thee is till a ton of inflating in the scores. I actually think the inflated scores are worse under this system.
Actually, figure skating is experiencing a resurgence in popularity BECAUSE of the new system. The new system rewards new skaters for what they do, which explains why there are so many new skaters that are succeeding under the new system. It was the old 6.0 system that turned people off. Just because you hate it, doesn't mean all fans do.
You keep saying that skaters get rewarded for what they do. Really? Then why earlier this season when Kim Yu-Na would have major mistakes in her program was she still getting world record scores? That doesn't track, with your claims. And the score that Dube and Davison had in the Sp at the Olympics. Not only was there a fall, but the entire program was skated without any purpose. Even the commentators were at a loss at how they posted the score they did.
Ok, I see that we will never agree on this. The Dube and Davison SP was not impressive, and all I know is that they weren't in the top 5, so clearly the scores didn't reward them for their mistakes. About Kim-Yuna, I guess her scores were World Record scores because she has no competition, except for Mao Asada, so Kim's scores are high relative to her competition.
You do have to admit that the new scoring system has improved Ice Dancing, which in the past was totally subjective.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Part II: I do agree Plushenko is terrible with artistry and is only ranked so high because of his quad, but then he's always been scored high, even before the new system.
Scores were inflated even in the 6.0 system. I'm just curious, and I'm not being sarcastic, but are there any skaters that you think are good and deserving of their scores (Post Salt Lake Olympics?) . I like Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir and Jeffrey Buttle (his 2008 Worlds LP was amazing).
Sorry, I hope this is my last response, but I think with the new system, what the ISU was trying to do was to prevent tainted judging. Even if according to you, there is inflated scoring, the main thing that is avoided is rigged judging. The selection of the judges is random, and even after judging the scores that count are also randomly chosen.
There are eg. of good skating that is rewarded in the new system. Watch Jeffrey Buttle's worlds 2008 LP. He won with his artistry, speed, but no quad.
I didn't say there wasn't some good skating. But the problem is under COP it is now the exception rather than the rule. Most of the skating is terrible now. I think it may be easier to rig the COP system. Skaters have no idea who the judges are now or where they are from, so they can't make a complaint against a certain judge any longer or show that a certain judge is always marking low or high, when those scores are not deserved. The ISU dropped the ball with this system.
aprhoditewitch: I used to feel the same way; that there simply isn't a lot of good skating now. I'm learning to like the COP now.. the individual elements are now clearly superior (spins, spirals, etc). And artistry appears to be improving too. In Ladies, the tech. content is skyrocketing, I hope that as skaters get used to the COP, the make their styles more unique. There's still inflating, but that's what happens when artistry is judged. I ALWAYS will be.
@mlc2005 I disagree about spirals improving under COP. Everyone having virtually the same spiral sequence is boring and repetitive, not improvement. Spirals were better before, when a skater could have a spiral in more than one part of their program. Programs now look like checklists, with the exception of ice dance. However there are problems there still as well.
@aphroditewitch Just because spirals under he COP may seem to you as more 'boring', it doesn't really mean there hasn't been improvement. Girls now have to transition from one edge to another, that in itself is harder than what most of the ladies were doing back then. Stretch has also largely improved, and all these charlotte spirals...etc all heighten the technical difficulty. I remember seeing programs before that didn't even include a spiral, or if so, some wouldn't even hold it for 5 sec!
@CrimsonVibrato I don't think you ae correctly identifying the Charlotte. It is rarely seen anymore. It requires the skater touch her head to the leg on the ice.
@CrimsonVibrato You completely missed my point. What boring is everyone doing the same spiral sequence. Same=boring. I don't take issue with requirements for hold or edge change. Spirals should be like spins or jumps where they can appear throughout the program. It was that way under 6.0, why COP changed it, made no sense.
@aphroditewitch No, I didn't miss your point. You find it boring because everyone does the same spiral sequence, including that overused biellmann position. However you say spirals have not improved, and that is definitely not true. Like I said boring or not, stretch has improved in spirals and now that the girls are doing the change of edge, it automatically raises the level of difficulty. Under 6.0 it was like difficulty didn't matter, just simply doing the spins, landing the jumps..etc, that-
@aphroditewitch --was all it took to get good scores. That is exactly what makes the COP so much better. Although many of the competitors have still to learn to develop their own style under the COP, it is definitely an improvement compared to the 6.0. And yes you are right, I ill-used the charlotte in my argument. Better said, the Sasha spiral is a position that has become fairly popular, popularized by Cohen herself.
My point is the COP is flawed but it is definitely an improvement.
@CrimsonVibrato If that was true then so many skaters would not be getting such high scores when they are landing the jumps so poorly. Like Carolina Kostner's Silver Medal at 2008 Worlds, it was a terrible performance. So many dismal programs have placed above superior ones. Because people are working the system and racking up points even if their skating is terrible.
@aphroditewitch It is true that under the COP there are inflated scores. I cannot speak on the 2008 Worlds because I did not watch it that year, nor did I bother watching her performance on YouTube. I simply watched the gold medal performance seeing how I am not fond of Carolina's skating. Could it have been possible that the other skaters skated poorly? That was the year that Kim had a poor LP performance, no? Correct me if I am wrong.
@aphroditewitch Also what you say on the poor performances often scoring higher than the higher performances is not true. That can be said about the 6.0 system. That is the start of the problem. The 6.0 system was a very subjective system. Often the performances that "stole" people's hearts were the ones that won as long as they were CLEAN. Now that isn't fair to those that had technically superior skates, but had a few flaws. COP fixes that. But then the AUDIENCE isn't pleased because-
@CrimsonVibrato It is true. At the Olympics, when Dube and Davison were placed above several other teams, even though performance was awful. Not only did they fall but they also looked completely lost during the sp. Even the commentators couldn't find a bs reason as to why it was placed higher. Or the score Domnina and Shablin had in the OD given that there was very little technical content compare to other performances they were scored above.
@aphroditewitch Like I said scores are likely to be inflated, but no major injustice was done. At the 2010 Olympics, every single final (top 3) standings at every single event were completely well deserved, something that I found RARE in the 6.0, seeing how I always preferred the programs that were in the end technically harder. Shen/Zhao rightfully won gold, Evan Lysacek rightfully won gold...etc, everyone was awarded in my opinion RIGHTFULLY. I could often question the standings under 6.0.
@CrimsonVibrato Domnina and Shabalin did not deserve to be on the podium. Just as they did not deserve the Gold at 2009 Worlds. They display a great deal of sloppiness in their skating.
@aphroditewitch they are so enthralled by the more crowd pleasing program, that the technically harder programs fall short to their liking. Under the COP those programs are the ones that get more credit (rightfully so), and so you expect the crowd to be at times displeased.
Either way, the COP awards the skater for EVERYTHING, not just for landing jumps and getting through the program with the fewest flaws. It awards the spins, the spirals, the footwork, all that stuff that tended to be ignored.
@CrimsonVibrato Except the sport was supposed to be about balanceing technical and artistry. now artistry is virtually gone. Under the original system superior artistry won out, in part because that is difficult to do.
@aphroditewitch That is not true. The top skaters in the world right now are the ones who are ARTISTICALLY the STRONGEST. They have the whole package. It is pointless to use that argument. Yu-Na although not my favorite skater is w/o a doubt a very sophisticated young lady who has a great presence on the ice. Shen/Zhao though retired shortly after the Olympics were the strongest artistically and technically. Takahashi now the World champion is another one who is artistically just as strong.
@CrimsonVibrato Not true. Joubert, with exception of the Olympics, has long been overscored. Even technically he frequently makes huge errors, that are not given enough deductions. He has focused so much on the quad, that the rest of his skating is embarrassing, and he often misses the quad. He has very little performance quality. The current US Pairs Champions, have no artistry and look almost like strangers skating next to each other.
@aphroditewitch Hello? Joubert has probably the most consistent quad in the entire competition! What the hell are you talking about, lol. And when he does take a fall they place him low in the standings as deserved. Look at the 2010 Olympics! What are you complaining about? When he delivers great technical performances he's awarded, when he doesn't he isn't. As for the current U.S pair champions, there ARE NO strong artistic pairs in the U.S right now, so what are you on about? They rank low on-
@CrimsonVibrato Like I said the score is supposed to even under COP in theory be based on both technical and performance. He has no performance other than mugging . That is not artistry. His performance marks are grossly inflated.
@aphroditewitch Well I'm sorry dear but artistry isn't everything. If you don't have the technical stuff to go with it you're not succeeding under the COP, plain and simple. That was the problem with the 6.0 system that largely ignored technical difficulty, like the spins, spirals, landing jumps CORRECTLY...do I really need to repeat myself? Also your comment on their OD doesn't make sense. I'm not even going to bother with your petty argument.
@CrimsonVibrato And without artistry you have nothing. Which is why many of todays skaters are forgettable. There is a reason why just a few years after winning the Olympics and/ or Worlds these days they are forgotten about. Meanwhile people who stopped competing years ago still have names Boitano, Yamaguchi, Tai and Randy etc.
@CrimsonVibrato The OD is easy to explain, pity you don't comprehend the rules. The OD for this season was to be a folk/country dance, it also had to be an accurate representation of a specific culture. When the controversy began on their OD, D/S and their coaches said it was not representing a specific aborginal culture and people shouldn't be offended. If it is not representing a specific culture, then there is no way for it to be a folk dance or a true way to judge accuracy.
@aphroditewitch I do understand the rules dear, you said that he needed her costume to lift her? Their skating was sloppy? That is where you lost me. Please do explain how they had more um, gimmick than technique. And no without artistry as long as you have technical difficulty you have something. Many skaters who succeeded under the COP are quite memorable, and mind you, artistically brilliant. Sasha Cohen was one, currently Yu-Na Kim, and I see many rising stars.
@CrimsonVibrato Their skating in the OD was very sloppy, it didn't even look like a dance. Jumping around, making ridiculous faces, grabbing hair and shaking yourself is not a folk dance. Which is why they did not follow the rules, yet again I state, one should be able to discern what culture a folk dance is coming from. A fact you continue to ignore. The dance was not a true folk dance, and they should have had severe deductions in the points.
@aphroditewitch You know what, I probably should have never debated you on Ice Dance. Firstly, I only got into it recently so I admit I may be ignorant and not be able to tell that their skating is "sloppy". I can tell you, however, that COP without a doubt has improved Ice Dance. I believe, like many others, that Ice Dance used to be a very boring sport. When the COP came along you cannot deny the drastic change that took place. All these lifts that we are seeing now were not seen before which-
@aphroditewitch -was the exact reason I never watched it before. The COP made ice dance so much more exciting, at least in my opinion. That's another reason as to why the COP is so much better than the 6.0 system, and that is our major debate here. You seem to believe the 6.0 system is better but you haven't once told how or why. Are you going to deny that it was a very subjective system? That the judges were often biased? is it not better that we now have anonymous judges in the COP?--
@CrimsonVibrato I find 6.0 better because the sport reflected creativity under the scoring system. Death spirals were beautiful under 6.0, now they are disgusting, I would rather have them taken out then in their current form. Programs are formulaic now, and choreography is often lacking.
@aphroditewitch Then why is it that the top skaters of our day, are the skaters with the best choreography? That is exactly why Evan beat Plushenko in Vancouver, he had the better choreographed and balanced program. Judges still look for good choreography, and if you don't have it your scores reflect that. Like I said several times, COP pays attention to the WHOLE package. Our top skaters today are artistically and technically outstanding and that's exactly what makes your point pointless.
@CrimsonVibrato Except that if you look at the actual scores they ties on perfromance. Evan won on technical and barely. If Plushenko had done just one of his bigger jumps slightly later in the program he probably would have won, even though the program was so poorly choreographed.
@aphroditewitch I believe Evan should have won BOTH technical and performance likewise for the very reason that it was better choreographed and he didn't have tilted, sloppy jumps like Plushenko did. There was an unfairness there, but it doesn't happen with every skater. The COP does take in consideration the choreography, just seeing that all the medalists have the best choreographed performances is enough proof.
@aphroditewitch Honestly we have been arguing non stop for a while and I see that I'm not convincing you and you're not convincing me. I think the COP is better because it awards not only the artistic brilliance of one's skating but also the technical aspect, the WHOLE package. You think the 6.0 is better because programs were more creative and the skaters were more "memorable". Okay, so we should just ignore the spins, the spirals, the footwork, the difficult technique like the 6.0 did?
@CrimsonVibrato You keep claiming the 6.0 ignored difficulty. How so? You never give specific examples. In 1998 Kulik won with an amazing performance that was very difficult. Yamaguchi was doing triple triple jumps back in 1992. Even today many of the ladies still are not doing them. Sasha's spiral was amazing long before COP came around. Bobek was known for her spiral. Yagudin and Browning are still considered among the best in footwork.
@aphroditewitch The 6.0 system largely ignored spins and spirals, these elements weren't really taken accounted for until the COP came along. Many skaters have said it, Dick Button himself made a little speech in the time of the 6.0 how it ignored these elements. That is why technique has sky rocketed in the COP, because skaters are being left with no choice but to push their technique to the limit. Not just simply land jumps, have good artistry, and simply win as long as it's clean.
@aphroditewitch Speaking of Sasha now that you mentioned her again, she was often under scored in the 6.0 system (as many commentators have pointed out). She had extraordinary polished technique, the best there was at that time, yet her technical scores tended too frequently to not reflect that. She herself spoke strongly of the COP when it was introduced, she said she was happy because it took in consideration the difficulty of everything, not just simply performing the elements and that's it.
@CrimsonVibrato I take many skaters praise for COP with a grain of salt. They have seen what can happen to skaters who speak up about COP, like Weir who was often underscored. COP didn't benefit Sasha more than 6.0 did. Her placements under COP were about the same as they were under 6.0.
@aphroditewitch Johnny Weir in my opinion was not underscored, and I know that the majority thought he was at the Olympics, but what was so great about his program? He said there was this whole story behind why he chose the song, yet I saw no connection. He didn't put it out there, I felt nothing. His choreography was flat and I feel that there were skaters that actually should have placed ahead of him, Oda for example. And no Sasha's scores under the COP when she skated her best were the-
@aphroditewitch highest out there, at least during her time. I've seen her give flawless, great SP's under the 6.0 system yet not receive a single 6.0, while technically easier programs were given perfect scores (example: Kwan). But that's another issue, I don't want to start with that.
Also yes, Sasha did have an amazing spiral, but it wasn't until the COP that she began transitioning from one edge to another. I believe it had been in 2002 or 2003 where during a competition under the COP she received just a level 2 despite her unmatchable extension. She then began performing long spiral sequences, began using both edges, and became the first woman to receive a level 3+ in spirals. Once she had improved her spirals, commentators referred to her spiral as the best in the world.
Today many of the ladies may not be doing triple/triples but they do have to skate longer, they do have these required (and exhausting) footwork sequences, they now have to change positions on their spins if they want to rack up points and so forth. All the things that go into these programs are so MUCH more difficult than what was being done back then (but that is expected anyway, this sport evolves). Like I said skaters now have to get the most out of EVERYTHING in their skating.
@CrimsonVibrato Skate longer? That doesn't make sense. The program was 4 mins under 6.0 and 4 under COP. The biggest problem with the footwork, is often it is very slow, and the movements look disjointed far too often. There were also position changes in the spins under 6.0, so that also doesn't make sense.
@aphroditewitch Skaters now skate for 30 extra seconds, comparable to holding your breath for extra 30 seconds.
Back then footwork could be very non-existent, now there is more use of edges, more toe picking, faster turns, you know what I mean. You use appearance too much to defend your argument. If the footwork is "slow" then their marks reflect that. The skaters with top marks on footwork have fast, attractive looking footwork, your comment makes no sense. Look at Patrick Chan, Evan...etc.
@CrimsonVibrato No they don't skate for an extra 30 seconds. I have no idea where you are pulling that from. Under 6.0 and COP ladies skate for 4 mins, men for 4.5, pairs for 4.5, and the ics dance FD for 4.
@aphroditewitch Under the 6.0 the only skater that really changed positions like is required under the COP was Sasha Cohen, seeing how she popularized numerous combination spins used today. When I said changing positions, I meant several positions; combination spins, laybacks to bielmans, all of these combos weren't seen in the 6.0.
@CrimsonVibrato Again that is completely false. I just watched an old Slutskaya Sp and her combo spin changes position several times. These positions were very much being done in combo under 6.0, by other skaters.
@CrimsonVibrato And in trying to get the most of everything out of each element, the programs have suffered so much and mediocre skaters like the Zhangs end up with medals they do not deserve. Watching the skaters constantly tally up points in theirs heads while they skate is so distracting. In the old days the great ones could recover from a mistake quickly, now for most, once they make a mistake it sticks with them the rest of the program.
@aphroditewitch The Zhangs are very consistent skaters with brilliant technique, don't sell them out short. The top skaters do not have "suffering" programs, dear. I mean really, have you seen Kim's programs, have you seen Mao's programs, have you seen Rochette's programs, Takahashi's, Evan's, PLushenko's, She/Zhao, Pang/Tong...etc?? The suffering programs, as you call it, simply don't get rewarded like deserved.
@CrimsonVibrato I don't doubt that some of them are good skaters. However Yu Na only had one competition this season where both her SP and FS were clean. Many questioned early this past season if Mao would make the Japanese team after she didn't even make the grand Prix Final. And while she is a wonderful skater, she has struggled with her programs...
@CrimsonVibrato She fell in 2008 when she won Worlds. And to me that is a uge problem with COP. There is a problem with the points being about the same for a triple that a skater fell on and a triple that the skater doubled, because they didn't have the speed for a triple. It is why there is now so much falling.
It's NOT about who was better everybody! It's about the fact that it was PROVEN that the French Judge was pressured/paid by the Russian federation to vote for the Russian pair team, no matter what. If that had not been proven, this would have been one of those examples (and there are many) of 5-4 decisions that are argued about forever.
In this case, however, it was the first time corruption was actually acknowledged at the Olympic games by the ISU.
mlc2005 1 week ago
The Russian and French federations are solely to blame for the distruction of the 6.0 system, and now we are left with the code of points, which is fine for hard core fans, but makes it much less exciting for general audiences.
Ironically (and absurdly), the Russian federation blamed Plushenko's silver medal in Vancouver 2010 on the "flawed" code of points." The very judging system THEY single-handedly forced into place b/c of outright corruption. Unbelievable.
mlc2005 1 week ago
Amazing. They look like one person :)
meancatmeow 3 weeks ago
Biggest scam is skating history. The ISU is all sorts of fucked up for allowing those judges to continue. New system would have had them with gold without a doubt.
demisDINOS 1 month ago
Wow. I haven't see this in years. So beautiful, I was just moved to tears.
synnabunbonbon 1 month ago
BEAUTIFULL!! so cheated......
sparkatorch 3 months ago
Boooo! They become their medals only because of their whining and bashing russian pair.
Budagaev 4 months ago
@Budagaev You stupid shit. The Russians only got the gold because the Russians pressured the French judge to vote for them! Typical Russian cry baby.
clwgirl510 2 months ago 4
@clwgirl510 Yeah then accused Team Canada Hockey of cheating in the 2010 Olympics, they can't stand to lose.
AllstarCanadian 2 months ago
@AllstarCanadian And they accused the USA of cheating when Lysacek won the gold in men's figure skating because the Russians couldn't land their jumps clean..
clwgirl510 2 months ago
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BabeonToast 1 month ago
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@Budagaev They won because they were technically perfect. Sour grapes, much?
BabeonToast 1 month ago
We all know Jamie and David easily won, but people need to stop bashing the Russians. They are probably extremely embarrassed, they know they didn't truly win, and they didn't ask to be put in to that mess.
ParadingSentiments 5 months ago
@ParadingSentiments Amen!
DelusionalDarcy 2 months ago
Jamie and David should have won that gold medal ONLY! The Russians were GIVEN their medal..they shoul be SILVER medalists...boy, did that piss me off!!!
oofahman 5 months ago
I think her lack of adequate deodorant was the deciding factor. Judges don't want to see sweat stains on a skater as they're trying to be "graceful." You know what I mean?
mlc2005 7 months ago
I don't know how many times I have watched this video, or how many times I have commented on it. I love this piece of art. It is so beautiful. It brings me to tears every time I watch it, still after all these years.
tedsler 7 months ago
There was a Uzekekistani man on the worlds most wanted fugitives list who was charged with bribing the judges in favour of the French and Russians
Pooledogg 7 months ago
russians are a bit more gracefull, that s the point. just that.
joannahewson 7 months ago
@joannahewson You're wrong.It was proven the French & Russian judges cheated!
skategurl1102 6 months ago
@skategurl1102 well but we know this was not the only year they cheated in 2001 the russians deserve the gold and not the canadians
gonzo77ffm 6 months ago 3
@gonzo77ffm What were you even watching?
BabeonToast 1 month ago
ce frumos
joannahewson 7 months ago
Beautiful and brilliant program! Just stunning...simple yet beautiful!!
cd72 7 months ago
It is a shame that once again bad judging has led to fights among people involved with the sports, because this program deserves to be remembered for its beauty and not the controversy surrounding the results. Everything fits so well with the music. It's a true work of art.
PierreMcDuck 7 months ago
It's not about the outfits i would know I'm a very competitive skater
rtait1 7 months ago
@pescadorfundido Oh....I guess you don't remember Tonya Harding CRYING!!!....because her skates weren't tied tight enough.....and she got her second chance.... 1994 Lillehammer
ngogol 7 months ago
@pescadorfundido Oh....I guess you don't remember Tonya Harding CRYING!!!....because her skates weren't tied tight enough.....and she got her second chance....
ngogol 7 months ago
@ngogol and how Bayoul opened her own lace after she missed the 3Lz in the short and could reskate the whole program (in those days it was left for skater s to choose from where to start if something happened to their clothes) and nailed the 3lz ending in 1st place!
Patrickibens 7 months ago
The composition really brings out the emotion of their movement and choreography; sent shivers down my spine. I really didn't believe perfection existed until I saw these two.
Anyone know what the score called?? It really touched me while watching this.
L30NK3NN3DY 8 months ago
I remember watching this and being so outraged at the resulting tie. Jamie and David's performance was so perfect!
GravityGrave 9 months ago 11
damn judge(s) they deserved gold and they got it but really a tie??? noo
emilyandemilie 10 months ago
@emilyandemilie
Anton and Elena's program was considerably harder, so the russians one flaw got evened out by the fact that they had a harder program.
trophymursky 9 months ago
they deserved the gold. not letting it go.
ihatepapayas 10 months ago
I am Russian and I admire skillful, talented figure-skaters from all over the world. However, I can't say Jamie Sale and David Pelletier outperformed Elena and Anton. Not a chance! Wake up and smell the coffee!
Sunny170378 10 months ago
@Sunny170378 Everybody is entiteled to his/her opnion so I respect yours but we all know how the Russians won don't we........ Vive La France!
Patrickibens 10 months ago
@Patrickibens Absolument!
ngogol 7 months ago
@Patrickibens I remember some ice dancing competitions....out of the spotlight of the Olympics....and the corruption that has occurred with the judges in those competitions..
ngogol 7 months ago
so why expect anything different from Russian judges anywhere else...n'est-ce pas?
ngogol 7 months ago
@Sunny170378 still....there was manipulation and corruption in the judging pool.....deal with it....and move on...
ngogol 7 months ago
I like figure skating but a lot less since 2002. Figure skating should not be part of the olympics. Anything judged should not be in the olympics. Even with the changes they have made it's still so corrupt and now the judges themselves are kept secret to protect them. Terrible!
joe11880 10 months ago
As an American I love Jamie Sale and David Pelletier. I've seen them skate a lot and they're nothing short of beautiful.
pb4ugo012 10 months ago
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They truly skated the (Love) Story. Incredible, moving, I never tire of this performance.
TheHappyFiddler 10 months ago
They truly skated the (Love) Story. Incredible, moving, I never tire of this performance.
TheHappyFiddler 10 months ago
this is very very good but I still think russia was better presentation wise. They were just more elegant and the flow was better. Plushenko getting the silver in 2010 was much more of an injustice as these guys getting the silver.
trophymursky 11 months ago 2
@trophymursky Plush his Silver was indeed an insult (to Takahashi)! Plush should have been 3rd after USA & JAP!
Patrickibens 10 months ago
@trophymursky: The "injustice" you feel Plushenko faced in 2010 was a direct result of what the Russian Fed. did in 2002 Salt Lake. So, they have absolutely no right to talk at all about injustice. I'm sorry.
mlc2005 1 week ago
All the Russian lovers...take a breath. The Canadians didn't stumble, so there. Crooked scoring almost ruined the sport and nearly got it kicked out of the Olympics.
mcatch23 11 months ago
Take out all the tricks and what have you? No line, his posture is atrocious, no real edge quality, average speed, and cute choreography. Years after the fact, it seems a mystery as to why there was any controversy.
LDVTennis 11 months ago 2
гребаный отстой
Msbokri 11 months ago
I wish they had worn better costumes. This was the Olympics, not a golf game. They skated very well. I'll leave it to the experts to decide if they deserved the gold.
idolfan9495 11 months ago
BOTH teams were fantastic.
manderson610 1 year ago
The bit I find odd about the whole scandal is the assumption that the French judge would automatically rank the "Western" Skaters higher. Why should she? 4 other judges shared the opinion of the French judge. It seems the media had crowned the winners and then weren't happy with the actual result. Now the judging system is not more transparent and is also open to criticism.
annakfan 1 year ago
I have the 2002 Time cover of them! [Well, of JS, anyway.:) Sorry, DP].
BTW If you watch 2007's "Blades of Glory", 5 years later, you'll see Jamie and David listed as stand ins or something.
SteveCarras 1 year ago
it was exciting... it has strong!! I love Anton & Elena but Jaime & David was the best in Salt Lake
ingriddiamond 1 year ago
Gives me goosebumps!
fashionsleep 1 year ago
I AM pregnant, so it may just be hormones, but I remember being in tears when I watched this live in 2002, and I am in tears again watching it now! Love it.
star69elvis 1 year ago
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the russians were BORING and unmoving..
DATG07 1 year ago
I am generally a fan of the COP but it does eliminate some beautiful moments in skating .... 3:16-3:52 is one of the most beautifully choreographed pairs moments in my memory but under COP that would not get them the marks proffered by ugly catch leg positions and awkward hand changes in spirals
lutz84 1 year ago
these guys were robbed of their gold, it was so unfair. i remember being so distraught after watching this live in 2002
jooodlez 1 year ago
i do not know who those judges were watching but it was not these skaters. i have never seen such perfection . they deserved a perfect score and then some.
PeaceLoveAndSKs 1 year ago
@PeaceLoveAndSKs surely you've seen Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir?!
belladonna137 1 year ago
@belladonna137 i dont think so
PeaceLoveAndSKs 11 months ago
@PeaceLoveAndSKs well i am happy to introduce to you, the best ice dancers in the world! their olympic free dance was breath taking if i do say so! please, youtube it! and let me know what you think? :) ♥
belladonna137 10 months ago
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belladonna137 10 months ago
Very deserved SECOND place. The style of Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, many inventive moves by greate coach Tamara Moskvina... and this simple performance... No! Only second place!
bemar1972 1 year ago
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@bemar1972 i'm sorry, but wtf is wrong with you?? they were so wronged!!!
jooodlez 1 year ago
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@bemar1972 Are we watching the same program. You must
have been on something, to think this great program only deserved to place only
second place. I loved this program. I would have given it a perfect 6.0. Straight
across the board. FOr both set of marks.
wegersfour 1 year ago
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@bemar1972 the russians are always whinning when they dont win. everyone besides them know that the canadians were the winners.
chicagoguy19 1 year ago
@chicagoguy19 omg i know they are sore losers like when America won the 1980 hockey olympics. I am American and I still say that Canada deserved to win the gold here not silver!
billings585 1 year ago
@bemar1972 ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! ARE YOU A MORON?!!!!!!!!!! fuck you and your fucking stupid second place, they DESERVED the GOLD and they FUCKING GOT THE GOLD IN THE END BECAUSE THEY WERE THE BEST you piece of shit shut the fuck up and dont you dare speak about CANADIANS again...you have NO RIGHT tooo dick
belladonna137 1 year ago
@belladonna137 this is the level of your culture?
bemar1972 1 year ago
@bemar1972 guess so...TRUE NORTH STRONG AND FREE!
belladonna137 1 year ago
@bemar1972 inventive moves don't make up for wobbly landings.
januaryjewel 1 year ago
@januaryjewel landingS? How many wobbly landings was here? I see onle one, slightly step out on double axel. At this case this jump is count!
bemar1972 1 year ago
Geeze can you guys argue over email... Just comment on the skate and shut up! They were amazing!
Binge10 1 year ago
mann.... i could never forget this routine. perfection.
gluzie 1 year ago
Yet another example of Sandra Bezic's brilliant choreography performed brilliantly by Sale and Pelletier.
deb90566 1 year ago
@deb90566 I believe that this program was choreographed by Lori Nichol, and not Sandra Bezic.
jokerwildest 1 year ago 12
@jokerwildest I think Lee Ann Miller choreographed this.
tinymavy 8 months ago
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Yes, it is simple. It is emotional and understated. That was their intention, to skate to a story. It wasn't gaudy or over choreographed.
if1byland 1 year ago
funny to remember this, i was most upset i do believe it was a french judge, with some one else, did they ever clear that up
as to what i may see
maidmoira 1 year ago
who did that
maidmoira 1 year ago
from love story, old movie with ryan oniel and allie magraw or something
maidmoira 1 year ago
so bad this was disruptted my bad people judging, you guys did terifficcccccccccc
maidmoira 1 year ago 2
They are AMAZING!
maritimemama 1 year ago
As a canadian i thought the russians clearly deserved this one, jamie and David skated to rehashed shlock and cheesy music.
seanpenn100 1 year ago
@seanpenn100 hmm at what point did music choice become pertinent. They skated flawlessly. As I recall the Russian pair fell. Listen to the crowd again S.P., they saw the routines and made a far better call than the bribed judges.
SpectralIntercourse 1 year ago
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@seanpenn100 However Canada ended up getting the Gold medal. The Russian judge told everyone that she was bribed with money.
partyz4life 1 year ago
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@seanpenn100 Your point being?
BabeonToast 1 year ago
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What about Kim Yuna at Worlds this year? Some of the other women (less known) skated much cleaner and much more artistically, too. Yet, she got silver. I am just confused by this.
JeriRose2 1 year ago
What about Kim Yuna at Worlds this year? Some of the other women (less known) skated much cleaner and much more artistically, too. Yet, she got silver. I am just confused by this.
JeriRose2 1 year ago
@JeriRose2 i completely agree
TheSweetestDreams 1 year ago
IMO, the Russians' program was faster and more stylish (more flair), but I feel that this pair deserved to share the gold based solely on the fact that the French judge confessed to allowing influence to effect her mark. Period. B/C she did that, and her mark was rightfully thrown out, it was a tie.
Personally, I think this program is not as "classic" and "artistic" as the commentators would have us believe. I thought it was good, but not brilliant. There's a spark missing for me.
mlc2005 1 year ago
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0:13 I thought I saw a sweaty armpit on Jamie Sale. Frickin beautiful skate!
Alexanadu 1 year ago
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Lindo D+++++
Emilymourabrum2009 1 year ago
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they're such a gorgeous pair and they deserved that gold medal!
Kate9105 1 year ago
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Gold medal worthy indeed!
Lalaland12341000 1 year ago
what music is this?
bayrozgar 1 year ago 6
Theme from the movie Love Story....Ryan Oneal and Allie Mcgraw
hularichard 1 year ago
@bayrozgar love story :D
TheSweetestDreams 1 year ago
I'm aware they won't change it back to 6.0/ But I also think the current system will likely get a drastic overhaul or they will change to something else. Too many fans are getting turned off. Without fans there is not a sport.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
Figure skating scoring systems will always be debated whatever it is. Let's just say the current system prevents the ugly conspiracy from happening again, right?
hmsrenown 1 year ago
@hmsrenown Only because instead of creating all the mass hysteria that led to the current system, the media now has to spend so much time explaining the current system.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
Progression of the sport like progression of any nation or human in general, is a gradual process, so one step to clean-up scandals is never a bd thing. I applaud ISU for fixing this problem, now it's up to them to come up with a better system for the sake of the sport and us spectators.
hmsrenown 1 year ago
Except the sport is regressing because of this scoring system. Edge work is often sloppy, very poor skating skills, move in the field are often absent. Many skaters are now just rushing through their programs. And now the skaters who have only skated under this system suffer . Even if they do change the scoring system, it may be too late to save the sport.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
You're right...someone to take gold without a quad-axel in men's figure skating took me by surprise because I wasn't following quite closely on the system and how it exactly works, but I'd take a step back to prevent another scandal anyday. Of course, now the onus is on ISU to make significant improvisation on this system for the advancement of the sport.
hmsrenown 1 year ago
...quad-axels don't exist (as of yet). More to the point, I fail to see why someone needs a quadruple jump to win the men's event. Plushenko was sloppy on the jumps - tilting massively in the air. Yes he landed them, but that's not the point. And I think people seem to be remembered the old system with high levels of nostalgia. Many of the programs were heavy loaded in technical aspects and discarded the artistic. Most importantly, it was way too subjective and far too biased *points to vid*
jaavdeni 1 year ago 3
Sorry I used the wrong term, I was really confused.
hmsrenown 1 year ago
I agree, the new system rewards the overall package. You get more points for the more you do, the quad doesn't make up for everything else, if everything else is below par. Also, the old system was very subjective, the new system outlines clearly what the judges should be looking at. Sure, it means skaters are required to finish all elements, but you see that the most artistic ones are still the ones that win in the end, so this talk about loss of artistry under the new system is meaningless.
bettybangs 1 year ago 2
Actually I have seen many skaters medal with very little artistry. The Zhangs at every event where they have medaled. Miki Ando at 2009 Worlds. In each case there was massive overscoring on the second mark. Even though they didn't medal, Dube and Davison were overscored at the Olympics just recently. Plushenko's poorly choreographed program and bad air positions at the recent Olympics, still won silver. It is horrific.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
In your earlier comment about the new system favoring performances that are poor quality in artistry, you used Kim Yuna as an example of someone who is over scored. It's the opposite, because even though she doesn't do the triple axle, she still wins BECAUSE of her artistry. The new system does make skaters rush to complete their elements, but it ultimately rewards artistry. Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir of ice dancing won, for eg. because they had the best artistry.
bettybangs 1 year ago
So you don't like the new system, because it's harder to explain? That's a pretty banal reason.
bettybangs 1 year ago
No that is not the reason. I was explaining that the commentators who causes so much hysteria over the 2002 Olympics, don't have time now because so much time is taken in explaing the scoring system. I don't like the system because it makes skating robotic. Not to mention thee is till a ton of inflating in the scores. I actually think the inflated scores are worse under this system.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
Actually, figure skating is experiencing a resurgence in popularity BECAUSE of the new system. The new system rewards new skaters for what they do, which explains why there are so many new skaters that are succeeding under the new system. It was the old 6.0 system that turned people off. Just because you hate it, doesn't mean all fans do.
bettybangs 1 year ago
You keep saying that skaters get rewarded for what they do. Really? Then why earlier this season when Kim Yu-Na would have major mistakes in her program was she still getting world record scores? That doesn't track, with your claims. And the score that Dube and Davison had in the Sp at the Olympics. Not only was there a fall, but the entire program was skated without any purpose. Even the commentators were at a loss at how they posted the score they did.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
Ok, I see that we will never agree on this. The Dube and Davison SP was not impressive, and all I know is that they weren't in the top 5, so clearly the scores didn't reward them for their mistakes. About Kim-Yuna, I guess her scores were World Record scores because she has no competition, except for Mao Asada, so Kim's scores are high relative to her competition.
You do have to admit that the new scoring system has improved Ice Dancing, which in the past was totally subjective.
bettybangs 1 year ago
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Part II: I do agree Plushenko is terrible with artistry and is only ranked so high because of his quad, but then he's always been scored high, even before the new system.
Scores were inflated even in the 6.0 system. I'm just curious, and I'm not being sarcastic, but are there any skaters that you think are good and deserving of their scores (Post Salt Lake Olympics?) . I like Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir and Jeffrey Buttle (his 2008 Worlds LP was amazing).
bettybangs 1 year ago
Correction, I didn't see the Dube and Davison SP, I think it was their Olympic LP that I saw.
bettybangs 1 year ago
Sorry, I hope this is my last response, but I think with the new system, what the ISU was trying to do was to prevent tainted judging. Even if according to you, there is inflated scoring, the main thing that is avoided is rigged judging. The selection of the judges is random, and even after judging the scores that count are also randomly chosen.
There are eg. of good skating that is rewarded in the new system. Watch Jeffrey Buttle's worlds 2008 LP. He won with his artistry, speed, but no quad.
bettybangs 1 year ago
I didn't say there wasn't some good skating. But the problem is under COP it is now the exception rather than the rule. Most of the skating is terrible now. I think it may be easier to rig the COP system. Skaters have no idea who the judges are now or where they are from, so they can't make a complaint against a certain judge any longer or show that a certain judge is always marking low or high, when those scores are not deserved. The ISU dropped the ball with this system.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
Well, I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.
bettybangs 1 year ago
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Lalaland12341000 1 year ago
aprhoditewitch: I used to feel the same way; that there simply isn't a lot of good skating now. I'm learning to like the COP now.. the individual elements are now clearly superior (spins, spirals, etc). And artistry appears to be improving too. In Ladies, the tech. content is skyrocketing, I hope that as skaters get used to the COP, the make their styles more unique. There's still inflating, but that's what happens when artistry is judged. I ALWAYS will be.
mlc2005 1 year ago
@mlc2005 I disagree about spirals improving under COP. Everyone having virtually the same spiral sequence is boring and repetitive, not improvement. Spirals were better before, when a skater could have a spiral in more than one part of their program. Programs now look like checklists, with the exception of ice dance. However there are problems there still as well.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch Just because spirals under he COP may seem to you as more 'boring', it doesn't really mean there hasn't been improvement. Girls now have to transition from one edge to another, that in itself is harder than what most of the ladies were doing back then. Stretch has also largely improved, and all these charlotte spirals...etc all heighten the technical difficulty. I remember seeing programs before that didn't even include a spiral, or if so, some wouldn't even hold it for 5 sec!
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato I don't think you ae correctly identifying the Charlotte. It is rarely seen anymore. It requires the skater touch her head to the leg on the ice.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato You completely missed my point. What boring is everyone doing the same spiral sequence. Same=boring. I don't take issue with requirements for hold or edge change. Spirals should be like spins or jumps where they can appear throughout the program. It was that way under 6.0, why COP changed it, made no sense.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch No, I didn't miss your point. You find it boring because everyone does the same spiral sequence, including that overused biellmann position. However you say spirals have not improved, and that is definitely not true. Like I said boring or not, stretch has improved in spirals and now that the girls are doing the change of edge, it automatically raises the level of difficulty. Under 6.0 it was like difficulty didn't matter, just simply doing the spins, landing the jumps..etc, that-
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch --was all it took to get good scores. That is exactly what makes the COP so much better. Although many of the competitors have still to learn to develop their own style under the COP, it is definitely an improvement compared to the 6.0. And yes you are right, I ill-used the charlotte in my argument. Better said, the Sasha spiral is a position that has become fairly popular, popularized by Cohen herself.
My point is the COP is flawed but it is definitely an improvement.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato If that was true then so many skaters would not be getting such high scores when they are landing the jumps so poorly. Like Carolina Kostner's Silver Medal at 2008 Worlds, it was a terrible performance. So many dismal programs have placed above superior ones. Because people are working the system and racking up points even if their skating is terrible.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch It is true that under the COP there are inflated scores. I cannot speak on the 2008 Worlds because I did not watch it that year, nor did I bother watching her performance on YouTube. I simply watched the gold medal performance seeing how I am not fond of Carolina's skating. Could it have been possible that the other skaters skated poorly? That was the year that Kim had a poor LP performance, no? Correct me if I am wrong.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch Also what you say on the poor performances often scoring higher than the higher performances is not true. That can be said about the 6.0 system. That is the start of the problem. The 6.0 system was a very subjective system. Often the performances that "stole" people's hearts were the ones that won as long as they were CLEAN. Now that isn't fair to those that had technically superior skates, but had a few flaws. COP fixes that. But then the AUDIENCE isn't pleased because-
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato It is true. At the Olympics, when Dube and Davison were placed above several other teams, even though performance was awful. Not only did they fall but they also looked completely lost during the sp. Even the commentators couldn't find a bs reason as to why it was placed higher. Or the score Domnina and Shablin had in the OD given that there was very little technical content compare to other performances they were scored above.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch Like I said scores are likely to be inflated, but no major injustice was done. At the 2010 Olympics, every single final (top 3) standings at every single event were completely well deserved, something that I found RARE in the 6.0, seeing how I always preferred the programs that were in the end technically harder. Shen/Zhao rightfully won gold, Evan Lysacek rightfully won gold...etc, everyone was awarded in my opinion RIGHTFULLY. I could often question the standings under 6.0.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato Domnina and Shabalin did not deserve to be on the podium. Just as they did not deserve the Gold at 2009 Worlds. They display a great deal of sloppiness in their skating.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch they are so enthralled by the more crowd pleasing program, that the technically harder programs fall short to their liking. Under the COP those programs are the ones that get more credit (rightfully so), and so you expect the crowd to be at times displeased.
Either way, the COP awards the skater for EVERYTHING, not just for landing jumps and getting through the program with the fewest flaws. It awards the spins, the spirals, the footwork, all that stuff that tended to be ignored.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato Except the sport was supposed to be about balanceing technical and artistry. now artistry is virtually gone. Under the original system superior artistry won out, in part because that is difficult to do.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch That is not true. The top skaters in the world right now are the ones who are ARTISTICALLY the STRONGEST. They have the whole package. It is pointless to use that argument. Yu-Na although not my favorite skater is w/o a doubt a very sophisticated young lady who has a great presence on the ice. Shen/Zhao though retired shortly after the Olympics were the strongest artistically and technically. Takahashi now the World champion is another one who is artistically just as strong.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato Not true. Joubert, with exception of the Olympics, has long been overscored. Even technically he frequently makes huge errors, that are not given enough deductions. He has focused so much on the quad, that the rest of his skating is embarrassing, and he often misses the quad. He has very little performance quality. The current US Pairs Champions, have no artistry and look almost like strangers skating next to each other.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch Hello? Joubert has probably the most consistent quad in the entire competition! What the hell are you talking about, lol. And when he does take a fall they place him low in the standings as deserved. Look at the 2010 Olympics! What are you complaining about? When he delivers great technical performances he's awarded, when he doesn't he isn't. As for the current U.S pair champions, there ARE NO strong artistic pairs in the U.S right now, so what are you on about? They rank low on-
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato Like I said the score is supposed to even under COP in theory be based on both technical and performance. He has no performance other than mugging . That is not artistry. His performance marks are grossly inflated.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch Well I'm sorry dear but artistry isn't everything. If you don't have the technical stuff to go with it you're not succeeding under the COP, plain and simple. That was the problem with the 6.0 system that largely ignored technical difficulty, like the spins, spirals, landing jumps CORRECTLY...do I really need to repeat myself? Also your comment on their OD doesn't make sense. I'm not even going to bother with your petty argument.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato And without artistry you have nothing. Which is why many of todays skaters are forgettable. There is a reason why just a few years after winning the Olympics and/ or Worlds these days they are forgotten about. Meanwhile people who stopped competing years ago still have names Boitano, Yamaguchi, Tai and Randy etc.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato The OD is easy to explain, pity you don't comprehend the rules. The OD for this season was to be a folk/country dance, it also had to be an accurate representation of a specific culture. When the controversy began on their OD, D/S and their coaches said it was not representing a specific aborginal culture and people shouldn't be offended. If it is not representing a specific culture, then there is no way for it to be a folk dance or a true way to judge accuracy.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch I do understand the rules dear, you said that he needed her costume to lift her? Their skating was sloppy? That is where you lost me. Please do explain how they had more um, gimmick than technique. And no without artistry as long as you have technical difficulty you have something. Many skaters who succeeded under the COP are quite memorable, and mind you, artistically brilliant. Sasha Cohen was one, currently Yu-Na Kim, and I see many rising stars.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato Their skating in the OD was very sloppy, it didn't even look like a dance. Jumping around, making ridiculous faces, grabbing hair and shaking yourself is not a folk dance. Which is why they did not follow the rules, yet again I state, one should be able to discern what culture a folk dance is coming from. A fact you continue to ignore. The dance was not a true folk dance, and they should have had severe deductions in the points.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch You know what, I probably should have never debated you on Ice Dance. Firstly, I only got into it recently so I admit I may be ignorant and not be able to tell that their skating is "sloppy". I can tell you, however, that COP without a doubt has improved Ice Dance. I believe, like many others, that Ice Dance used to be a very boring sport. When the COP came along you cannot deny the drastic change that took place. All these lifts that we are seeing now were not seen before which-
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch -was the exact reason I never watched it before. The COP made ice dance so much more exciting, at least in my opinion. That's another reason as to why the COP is so much better than the 6.0 system, and that is our major debate here. You seem to believe the 6.0 system is better but you haven't once told how or why. Are you going to deny that it was a very subjective system? That the judges were often biased? is it not better that we now have anonymous judges in the COP?--
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato I find 6.0 better because the sport reflected creativity under the scoring system. Death spirals were beautiful under 6.0, now they are disgusting, I would rather have them taken out then in their current form. Programs are formulaic now, and choreography is often lacking.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch Then why is it that the top skaters of our day, are the skaters with the best choreography? That is exactly why Evan beat Plushenko in Vancouver, he had the better choreographed and balanced program. Judges still look for good choreography, and if you don't have it your scores reflect that. Like I said several times, COP pays attention to the WHOLE package. Our top skaters today are artistically and technically outstanding and that's exactly what makes your point pointless.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato Except that if you look at the actual scores they ties on perfromance. Evan won on technical and barely. If Plushenko had done just one of his bigger jumps slightly later in the program he probably would have won, even though the program was so poorly choreographed.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch I believe Evan should have won BOTH technical and performance likewise for the very reason that it was better choreographed and he didn't have tilted, sloppy jumps like Plushenko did. There was an unfairness there, but it doesn't happen with every skater. The COP does take in consideration the choreography, just seeing that all the medalists have the best choreographed performances is enough proof.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch Honestly we have been arguing non stop for a while and I see that I'm not convincing you and you're not convincing me. I think the COP is better because it awards not only the artistic brilliance of one's skating but also the technical aspect, the WHOLE package. You think the 6.0 is better because programs were more creative and the skaters were more "memorable". Okay, so we should just ignore the spins, the spirals, the footwork, the difficult technique like the 6.0 did?
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato You keep claiming the 6.0 ignored difficulty. How so? You never give specific examples. In 1998 Kulik won with an amazing performance that was very difficult. Yamaguchi was doing triple triple jumps back in 1992. Even today many of the ladies still are not doing them. Sasha's spiral was amazing long before COP came around. Bobek was known for her spiral. Yagudin and Browning are still considered among the best in footwork.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch The 6.0 system largely ignored spins and spirals, these elements weren't really taken accounted for until the COP came along. Many skaters have said it, Dick Button himself made a little speech in the time of the 6.0 how it ignored these elements. That is why technique has sky rocketed in the COP, because skaters are being left with no choice but to push their technique to the limit. Not just simply land jumps, have good artistry, and simply win as long as it's clean.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch Speaking of Sasha now that you mentioned her again, she was often under scored in the 6.0 system (as many commentators have pointed out). She had extraordinary polished technique, the best there was at that time, yet her technical scores tended too frequently to not reflect that. She herself spoke strongly of the COP when it was introduced, she said she was happy because it took in consideration the difficulty of everything, not just simply performing the elements and that's it.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato I take many skaters praise for COP with a grain of salt. They have seen what can happen to skaters who speak up about COP, like Weir who was often underscored. COP didn't benefit Sasha more than 6.0 did. Her placements under COP were about the same as they were under 6.0.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch Johnny Weir in my opinion was not underscored, and I know that the majority thought he was at the Olympics, but what was so great about his program? He said there was this whole story behind why he chose the song, yet I saw no connection. He didn't put it out there, I felt nothing. His choreography was flat and I feel that there were skaters that actually should have placed ahead of him, Oda for example. And no Sasha's scores under the COP when she skated her best were the-
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch highest out there, at least during her time. I've seen her give flawless, great SP's under the 6.0 system yet not receive a single 6.0, while technically easier programs were given perfect scores (example: Kwan). But that's another issue, I don't want to start with that.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
Also yes, Sasha did have an amazing spiral, but it wasn't until the COP that she began transitioning from one edge to another. I believe it had been in 2002 or 2003 where during a competition under the COP she received just a level 2 despite her unmatchable extension. She then began performing long spiral sequences, began using both edges, and became the first woman to receive a level 3+ in spirals. Once she had improved her spirals, commentators referred to her spiral as the best in the world.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
Today many of the ladies may not be doing triple/triples but they do have to skate longer, they do have these required (and exhausting) footwork sequences, they now have to change positions on their spins if they want to rack up points and so forth. All the things that go into these programs are so MUCH more difficult than what was being done back then (but that is expected anyway, this sport evolves). Like I said skaters now have to get the most out of EVERYTHING in their skating.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato Skate longer? That doesn't make sense. The program was 4 mins under 6.0 and 4 under COP. The biggest problem with the footwork, is often it is very slow, and the movements look disjointed far too often. There were also position changes in the spins under 6.0, so that also doesn't make sense.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch Skaters now skate for 30 extra seconds, comparable to holding your breath for extra 30 seconds.
Back then footwork could be very non-existent, now there is more use of edges, more toe picking, faster turns, you know what I mean. You use appearance too much to defend your argument. If the footwork is "slow" then their marks reflect that. The skaters with top marks on footwork have fast, attractive looking footwork, your comment makes no sense. Look at Patrick Chan, Evan...etc.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato No they don't skate for an extra 30 seconds. I have no idea where you are pulling that from. Under 6.0 and COP ladies skate for 4 mins, men for 4.5, pairs for 4.5, and the ics dance FD for 4.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch Under the 6.0 the only skater that really changed positions like is required under the COP was Sasha Cohen, seeing how she popularized numerous combination spins used today. When I said changing positions, I meant several positions; combination spins, laybacks to bielmans, all of these combos weren't seen in the 6.0.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato Again that is completely false. I just watched an old Slutskaya Sp and her combo spin changes position several times. These positions were very much being done in combo under 6.0, by other skaters.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato And in trying to get the most of everything out of each element, the programs have suffered so much and mediocre skaters like the Zhangs end up with medals they do not deserve. Watching the skaters constantly tally up points in theirs heads while they skate is so distracting. In the old days the great ones could recover from a mistake quickly, now for most, once they make a mistake it sticks with them the rest of the program.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@aphroditewitch The Zhangs are very consistent skaters with brilliant technique, don't sell them out short. The top skaters do not have "suffering" programs, dear. I mean really, have you seen Kim's programs, have you seen Mao's programs, have you seen Rochette's programs, Takahashi's, Evan's, PLushenko's, She/Zhao, Pang/Tong...etc?? The suffering programs, as you call it, simply don't get rewarded like deserved.
CrimsonVibrato 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato I don't doubt that some of them are good skaters. However Yu Na only had one competition this season where both her SP and FS were clean. Many questioned early this past season if Mao would make the Japanese team after she didn't even make the grand Prix Final. And while she is a wonderful skater, she has struggled with her programs...
aphroditewitch 1 year ago
@CrimsonVibrato She fell in 2008 when she won Worlds. And to me that is a uge problem with COP. There is a problem with the points being about the same for a triple that a skater fell on and a triple that the skater doubled, because they didn't have the speed for a triple. It is why there is now so much falling.
aphroditewitch 1 year ago