How is it that there is no evidence of jesus, he was a person who lived by the laws of not making idols and the deciples would have also known this law, Archaeologists seem to only want to look for statues, and that type of thing to confirm someone lived. there are claim that the tomb of Jesus in Kashmir India, and he also spent time there. Archaeologist look for what is beneath the ground, not following his steps as a detective would looking for a lost person
@MistyMarie1970 To not have -any- writings from the time in his life is rather stunning. No accounts from the Jewish or Roman authority during his execution. No bust carved in his image. No paintings in his image. No witnesses. No accounts. No coins. There really is nothing until about two decades later with some poorly written epistles and very, very shady sources otherwise.
This talk only shows that most "biblical scholars" are compromised with the world. Of course the Bible is correct in history, the Dead Sea Scrolls attest pretty well to that, and the Ark of the Covenant even better. Which will you believe, some guys who change their minds as the wind blows to keep their salaries coming, or the unchanging Word of God?
@earlysda Do the dead scrolls really prove that the bible is correct, or rather does it help confirm that certain books of the bible were copied correctly? It's still possible to have something copied correctly but the information in those copies to be false.
Also, it's good that people change their minds when new evidence is presented. Could you imagine where we would be right now if we still believed things and never changed our mind about them?
@bander87 Your point about the copying being accurate is well taken.
It is true tho, that the oldest large body of manuscripts is in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and my point was that the history contained in those scrolls has been found time after time to be correct, with not even one "proven without a doubt" error.
The only people who are claiming such wild unfounded ideas are people who have an anti-Christian agenda and have nothing to do with truth. There are archeological finds in Israel today that bare the name of David. Not only that but there are manuscripts that backup the historical records.
There are "vast" amounts of evidence for Christ from antiquity, that silence the educated sceptics. No sane person can deny that Christ existed in history.
@Surfxeo. the last thing you want to hear is the truth it would seem, so many gods so many denominations of these gods, biblical scholars argue time and again over matters on a manmade myth. yet you claim that over 70% of scientists are insane.then step away from the computer[science technology],return to your cave. then start to read some books. study all the other gods and tell us why they dont count,including the greek gods. to save yourself from further embarressment. FACEPALM.
@kram83au I'd never suggest 70 % of scientists are insane. That is a non sensical statement. I do recognise that not all statement by scientist are statements of science.
I read at least 1 book a week. At the moment I am reading a book written in the 2nd century A.D. by Irenaeus of Lyon.
I have read most gods from ancient Greece, Egypt, Middle East, Mesopotamia, Australia, some American, north and south. The only ones in the running is the God of the Hebrews. He actually entered into history.
@Surfxeo good for you. your last statement, about the other gods and that the god of the hebrews enterted into history. so are you saying that ,that paritcular god is fact and the rest of the historical mythological gods are all false. come on. its pure plagerism of past mythological gods.there are many biblical scholars that have real doubt that christ ever existed. the documentation by the romans of that period is strong, yet not a whimper of any so called messiah being crucified.
@Surfxeo he did not exist. [jesus], and the NT is plagerised in some parts. if you cant see that then you cant see shit.. stop perpetuating such childish nonsense. let go of the security blanket of religion and grow some balls man.
From A rabbinic Point of view Genesis is a Poem, So go figure what the rest is . The gospels are said to be written between some 20- 100yrs AFTER the "Fact" and published as writting in what century after, HELLO!!!!!!
"...As a matter of fact, the amount of information concerning him is comparatively meager. Aside from the four Gospels, and a few scattered allusions in the epistles, contemporary history is almost silent concerning him."
"...there are very few sources for knowledge of the historical Jesus beyond the four canonical Gospels. Paul and Josephus offer little more than tidbits. Claims that later apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material supply independent and reliable historical information about Jesus are largely fantasy. In the end, the historian is left with the difficult task of sifting through the Four Gospels for historical tradition."
"Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent upon these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic"
- F.F. Bruce, "New Testament History" founder of the modern evangelical movement
"The only definite account of his life and teachings is contained in the four Gospels of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All other historical records of the time are silent about him. The brief mentions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have been generally regarded as not genuine and as Christian interpolations; Some scholars have even gone so far as to hold that the entire Jesus story is a myth…"
@spaceagebachelor Not the best video. I mean interesting topic, but I was hoping he would actually go into the points he makes. A pastor could just as easily say in a church, "There is no indisputable proof that validates the theory of evolution". Without discussion and supporting evidence the points people make are practically useless. I don't doubt that Avalos does that, but just was hoping for more of the video.
Do you know where I can find better videos of him, not much on youtube?
@spaceagebachelor Oh and just wonder what aethists thought about the writings about Josephus in particular. I've read he was one of (if not the) best historians of his time. I know his mention of Jesus (and brother James) in his writings is brief, but it seemed to me that they validated Jesus' existence and that he was considered the Son of God and that the disciples of his claimed to be witness to his ressurection.
John 14:14 says that all you have to do is believe and you can ask Jesus for anything for the glory of god and he will do it. Read it yourself. So why don't you who are believers go to the hospitals and ask god to heal the terminally ill, or regrow an amputated limb, heal someone of cancer. These things will glorify god and prove without a doubt that the bible is true. Don't talk about all the phony preachers and the false healings they supposedly did. Have it documented in a hospital.
There was a TV show called Dark Skies many years ago. It mentioned actual documented events, famous people and places from the last 60 years. The premise of the show was that aliens from outer space were behind everything happening in history. So, using the same logic Bible believers use, since the movie showed real events, people and place that are common knowledge of our times, then that tv show is actually all true.
To all of you who believe the Bible is true because it mentions places and people during the supposed time of Jesus, well, I saw a movie that told about a man who came to Los Angeles to save mankind. There was another who followed him to destroy mankind but he had to kill a certain person first. The first man was protecting that person. the movie showed actual places that we know are real. So that means the movie must be true.... The Treminator....he will be back!!!!
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."
in fact the contrary is happened in last few years.The discoveries in the city of David area in Jerusalem as well as the new discoveries all ower israel made the biblical minimalist theory death.David palace ,Solomonic wall,Judean inscribtions,.Elah fortres and this are just small parts of discoveries found in recent years
9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the SUN and MOON and ELEVEN STARS were bowing down to me."
10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?"
Joseph and the eleven other brothers are the twelve zodiac signs that is the children of the SUN and MOON
Man never changes- If you read the bible and look around you'll see mankind doing the same things over and over again. Regardless of anything else- saying the Bible doesn't apply to man because it was written long ago, is senseless. Psycology and self help books pull the majority of their information (wether intentionally or not) from the Bible. To dismiss is offhandedly would be ignorant.
I have studied the Bible for many years and have yet to see anything that suggests that it is less than "historical." Biblical truth is what history is all about since history is really His Story. But it is always fun and entertaining to watch yet another David Friedrich Strauss arise to make tall claims about the current state of Bible scholarship and how the believing world has been deceived.
Just watched the full 2 part video which blows the Bible as history sky high. Dr Avalos's lecture is really a must watch for anyone interested in the Bible as an historical document as seen in the light of contemporary archaeological research and Biblical scholarship.
Of particular interest is Dr Avalos's background as a Pentecostal child evangelist who became an atheist through studying the Bible at University in preparation for a career as a missionary.
There are plenty of eyewitness accounts of Jesus. One of them wrote:
"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty."
Its only because its in the bible itself that these accounts are discounted, but the fact is the bible is an incredibly reliable source in itself. The NT has more and older manuscripts than any other ancient writing with incredible agreement between manuscripts.
"Its only because its in the bible itself that these accounts are discounted"
yes, being self referential is a bad thing.
"the fact is the bible is an incredibly reliable source in itself." try telling that to the earth that's supposed to be fixed and unmoving (Psalm 93:1)
as for the supposed agreement between transcipts. there are contradictions even in the modern bible, and many books that aren't included at all thanks to various councils rewriting it.
there was a recent program talking about the historical king david and solomon. I cannot remember on what station it aired. It had the recent evidence where a king claimed to kill a descendant of David. However, there should b evidence that King Solomon or King David did not exist. u can't disregard historical details outlined in the Bible because of its religious nature. You can speculate that some details may b wrong but u have no idea if they are wrong unless u have conflicting evidence.
In 2007 that WAS partialy truth. So what? Does it mean that only things dag out exist? .. Nonsens. By the way in late 90's they discovered that Israelites were in Ewgipt as slaves. About time of the speech they dug out palace od David and Salomon! Hector, do you still care for the Truth?
@lachanonim Where did you get that nonsense ? As of today,there is zero evidence that the israelites were ever in Egypt. The BAS confirms what I am saying.
@lachanonim Who cares about Pithom and Rameses. The whole bible is irrelevant to modern living. Bible study and bible archaeology is just a waste of time. The jews have been digging for decades, without any success, to prove their religion, culture and claim to Palestine.
@lizazoon Irrelevant? These cities were covered with soil, only Bib le told about them. Those were citiet BUILD by Israelities. As to digging - if excavations are led by atheist they hardly see anything that confirms Bible. Look up for yourself
@lachanonim The bible is irrelvant; look up the videos of:Hector Avalos (Ph.D. 1991, Harvard University, 1991, M.T.S. 1985, Harvard Divinity School, B.A. in Anthropology, 1982 University of Arizona) is professor of religious studies at Iowa State University and the author or editor of six books on Biblical studies and religion, including his recently published work, The End of Biblical archaeology.
OUR LORD JESUS said, if they hate you, remember that they hated me first, if they receive you, they receive me, if they reject you, they reject me. The LORD will send them strong delusions that they believe a lie because they turn their backs and receive not the love of the truth that the light of the gospel should shine upon them and be saved., to turn their back on GODs love, forgiveness, and salvation through JESUS CHRIST is the sin that will never be forgiven.
do not cast you pearls before swine, or give what is holy onto dogs. JESUS said I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
2 COR 4 3,4 But if our gospel be hid, its hid to them that are lost, in whom the god of this world satan hath blinded the minds of them which believe not lest the light of the glorious gospel of CHRIST who is the image of GOD should shine onto them. Satan does not want you to come to christ, he even goes as far as to mask Christianity in the cloak of religion. Satan is the biggest promoter of religion in the history of the universe.
There is only one statement about Jesus being the Messiah in Josephus' history written about a century after Jesus' life. Scholars have shown that it is an interpolatiion (not really in the original text).
wow. what about all of the recorded historical accounts of Jesus according to Josephus, Pliny the Younger, and Tacitus? Do we disregard these? What about the Tel-Dan Stele- a philistine tablet mentioning the House of David, do we disregard this evidence? What about Jabal-al-lawz, and the colden calf petroglyphs in Saudia Arabia? Do we throuw that out along with the Pilate/Tiberius inscriptions?They said that neither David nor Pilate was real, until they found EVIDENCE! It's there. Deal with it.
ok, so ancient copies of a fictional god's failed attempts to cow humanity are the most important archeological discovery?
I prefer some of the tombs of Chinese emperors, where the swords had been chrome electroplated thousands of years before the west discovered practical applications for electricity.
Albright was actually a liberal skeptic until he became convinced of the integrity of the Bible from recently discovered manuscripts and from archaelogical finds.
Although Hector Avalos is a scholar, he undermines his own integrity by making numerous gaffes here ("Jacob" was in Egypt instead of "Joseph" etc). He knows how to make a mediocre powerpoint presentation.
That's it.
Albright was one of the most respected archaeologists of the 20th century.
What evidence? Merely saying "And there IS evidence of that" is not evidence. Can you show me specific non-Judaeo-Christian evidence of either of those things (Joseph as Prime Minister of Egypt or Moses as builder of cities in Egypt)?
It's an interesting version of reality based o wish fulfillment.
Albright is not "sometimes known as a crypto-fundamaentalist" or any kind of a fundamentalist anywhere, anytime except in this power point presentation.
"If you were to take a poll of biblical scholars, they would tell you ..."
Of course there is no such poll!
Don't you find it insulting that just because he is credentialed that Avalos can just make stuff up as he goes a long and adoring skeptics and atheists swallow it?
Albright is considered THE giant of Middle Eastern archaeology, not just biblical archaeology. He was an expert in several languages. an archaeologist, a papyrologist, a biblical scholar, an expert on ceramics.
He could cover the whole field. We don't see his kind too often.
Today we have Ph.D.s who major in minors, so-called "bible scholars" who can parrot the "findings" of other liberals or conservatives.
They have reason to be envious of Albright, but childish jealousy is all I see here.
Jesus has such a better life for you guys, in heaven. No ear has heard, no eye has seen what God has prepared for those who love him. God will even bless his children on earth, but faith in what Jesus has done is what makes you right with God and is what gives you access to the Father in Heaven, he cares about all your needs and cares but He wants you to want more of Him than anything else, then His mighty blessings will come.
horus was a false god. That's a pretty weak argument. Jesus' tomb is still in Jerusalem. Simon the tanner's house is still in Jappa. There is a church in Redding california that has many miraculous healings. You should go visit it.
There is only one God and that is Jesus, the Son of God. Jesus died and rose again so that anyone who could just do the simple task of believing the truth, that it made them right with God, could have a relationship with Him and be saved. My Father in Heaven has made it so easy for people to be saved. Salvation is as close to people as their lips and hearts. If they believe that Jesus made them right with God by His death and resurrection, they will be saved.
There is only one God, Elah. You are following Shaitan! Only through Elah can you gain salvation! If you only put aside your logic, common sense and reason, you too would see the sublime beauty of Elah, who by definition exists. You're Religious experiences were caused by Shaitan! If you had TRULY experience God, you would be a follower of Elah, not Yeshua. Elah is great!!!
Jokes aside, can you see how ridiculous your statements are when I use them? Think about that.
No! It is easier for children to understand salvation though because they haven't been puffed up with knowledge like "wise people". God loves you and if you seek after Jesus with all your heart you will find him. That is a promise from God. Go to bethel church in redding california, and you will see many healings and the power of God, and most importantly, the love of God. I'm not like a muslim who doesn't have any power or any other believer in lies. I am empowered by God to preach the gospel.
I would like you to carefully examine what you just said. Do you have children, or younger siblings? I am surrounded by them, and I must say, they are pretty naive and simple. What is the difference between believing in God and believing in Santa Clause? I saw faeries when I was a child, but I know now that Faeries CANNOT exist. Another man I know saw the Easter bunny. Children are no standard to go by on these matters.
Simple, santa clause is fake and clearly made up by man but the bible is God breathed and Jesus, the Son of God, died and rose again so that all you have to do is simply have faith in his death and resurrection. It's too easy to get saved and made right with God for most older people because they are puffed up with knowledge that results in unbelief. Jesus is the way to the relationship with God, He cares about you, tell him what you need, he wants to heal your wounds. God is the best parent.
you actually have a closed mind. The bible clearly talks about all sorts of false teachings. I have heard God's audible voice, telling me that He would heal my wounds. And since He has, and I have such a close relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, who reveals the Father. I tell him my every care and he heals me and takes care of my problems. I'm not led by feelings that lead me away from the truth. But in order to live a life where God's power is prevalent, you must be like a child. much love
I have investigated Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Spirituality, Deism and Atheism, the latter wherein I currently reside, as it fits with the facts of life. It is YOU who is closeminded.
I have induced myself into an Epiphany using the Rama Mantra (RAMARAMARAMARAMARAMA etc). Epiphanies occur to ALL people, and all religions monopolize them, each claiming that the adherents of THEIR faith are experiencing the real deal, whilst all others are deceived by the devil, etc.
"The bible clearly talks about all sorts of false teachings."
You mean false teachings like the way those evil scientists say that insects have six legs, and how your evil eyes see six if you look at one with your own eyes, and your evil fingers feel six if one crawls on your fingertips, etc., when the Bible very clearly says that all insects (aka "flying creeping things" in the KJV) have only FOUR feet?
Leviticus 11:20-23. Yes, very much including verse 23.
Scientists also recommend pills of dapsone, clofazimine and rifampicine to lepers, whereas the Old Testament clearly states that they should kill a little bird, smear its blood on another bird, and give the high-priest 2 lambs, plus flour and olive oil, to get cured.
Spiderman is from New York and many of the places from Spiderman comics are real. So following your argument New York is evidence for Spiderman being real.
@perfectshot35 William lane craig debates Dr. Avalos. A recording is on YouTube. I highly recommend checking it out. There is some drama with WLC opening speech causing a questioner to accuse him of attacking Avalos (ad hominem). There is also a good exchange of views on the historical Jesus. A key point is when WLC contends that Avalos uses the Bible as a historically accurate document for ancient health care but then denies the Bibles reliability in regards to the historical Jesus.
Hector Avalos (Ph.D. 1991, Harvard University, 1991, M.T.S. 1985, Harvard Divinity School, B.A. in Anthropology, 1982 University of Arizona) is professor of religious studies at Iowa State University and the author or editor of six books on Biblical studies and religion, including his recently published work, The End of Biblical Studies.
I wonder if those Mr. Avalos did research on the subject because in some way, the church back then tried to reconcile science with Genesis and fail. (Peter, J. Bowler, 1989).
You're talking about the Teacher of Righteousness of the Dead Sea Scrolls, is that right?
It's an interesting theory but not one most biblical scholars - even if you exclude the fundamentalist - take for granted.
That's not to say that the Jesus of the gospels is one and the same with the Jesus of history. There are countless reasons that make that assumption untenable. Still scholars tend to be believe that there are things that do trace back to a 1st century Jesus in the gospels however.
I agree that the religious convictions of the gospel authors exclude them from being concerned an unbiased source. I'd actually for other reasons (contradictions & clear literary inventions based on the OT) reject their being presumed as pure history. That doesn't mean there is no history to them at all.
There are actually ways to argue for what is probably history based on what doesn't serve the authors interests. Check out former fundamentalist bible scholar Bart Erhman's book Jesus Interrupted for details of how even secular bible scholars conclude this on some points. I held more your view before becoming familiar with there line of reasoning, but I still reject Christianity and the gospels as historic in general.
I actually think that the Gospel's were written based on some man, due to the fact that the writers go through the trouble of having Joseph and Mary travel from Nazareth to Bethlehem (as was prophesied) instead of having them live there in the first place. I guess what I meant to say is that there is no historical evidence for Jesus outside of the Bible which is very questionable and has been edited over the years to serve the purposes of many people.
Absolutely. I agree - the gospels are a big mess of literary religious imagery and who knows what else that is not actually historic. I think calling it religious historic fiction is a fair way to put it. My main point to any Christian is that there thinking anyone should be expected to look at it as 100% historic is completely ridiculous and if they just learn enough about it, they will know why. I want Christian apologists held to a higher standard. The more Christians know, the better.
As mention priorly in another channel, the name Jesus may have being a common name use over and over that self-claim "Christians" try to claim their deity with that name, but may not have research thorough enough to be accurate. savvy?
Just no that our sun is the light of the world and supports ALL life on earth. Without it we are doomed and with ignorance, we'll doom ourselves with or without the sun.
fear mongering, bullshit circular logic, pascal's wager, pulpit preaching, wildly outrageous claims with no evidence.... you really hit all the bases with this post, sounds like your ready to get your doctorate in "Creation science" lulz.
I don't know why you think that. An Answer given by a scholar doesn't come from public opinion. They are to arrive at their conclusion based on facts. Not based on what they want to see or what is in favor for the masses. For some reason most people think that these christian scholars are only there to "debunk" or "disprove" something. But i would really doubt that anyone of these people can side with some one who just hates religion. I highly doubt that.
On the historical level he is composed by at least two figures, the samarian prophet and James the essene. There are others who contributed to the myth of a historical Jesus but these two I mentioned above are the easiest to extract from the myth of a historical Jesus.
Jesus, as portrayed in the gospels, never existed as a person.
Are you kidding? NO one outside a fundamentalist college claims to know the authors of the gospels. And I don't think James is the original author of the book that bears his name. I think it's written in the tradition of James and if you read the books I mentioned, you'd see the evidence. What is very clear is that James was the first leader of the Jesus movement and that James was a very observant Jew. He in NO way saw Jesus as a replacement for the Law.
Not at all. We have no idea who they were and there's certainly no reason to believe they were observant Jews. Certainly anyone who teaches a man is equal with god is NOT an observant Jew. I'm not sure why that's difficult for you.
James was the leader of the first followers of Jesus. James was a devout Jew. The authors of the gospels are anonymous. Again, this is not difficult. The VAST majority of scholars don't think Peter wrote anything.
Paul called the Law a "curse" See Psalm 119 for how an observant Jew really feels about the Law. And read the whole thing. Paul said salvation was by faith alone. James said "Can a man's faith save him?' Paul taught abrogation of the Torah. Jesus said "whoever breaks the least of the Law and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom". It's not hard, JG and it's all there. Not only outside the canon, but right there in plain sight inside the canon.
JG: It's simple. James was chosen to lead the first followers of Jesus after he was gone. James lived and worshipped as a Jew for decades until his death. James knew Jesus and his interpretation of their religion, which was Judaism. A messiah who is god incarnate and who dies as an atonement for the sins of the world is antithetical to Judaism. James AND Jesus were Jews. It was Paul who taught what's come down to us as Christianity and it has nothing to do with Jesus or Judaism.
No, it's clear who is ignorant. Get an education. James was killed in Jerusalem in the 60's, where he had been since Jesus' death. Where he had been worshipping as a devout JEW, in the holy of holies. Where he had repeated several times daily the S'hema "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE!"
Get an education. Jews, including Jesus revere the Law and affirm it's eternal nature. Paul taught abrogation of the Law. That's why he was sent to the Gentiles by James.
Jesus affirmed the eternality of the Torah. Paul said it was too difficult to keep. Jesus said "whoever breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom". Paul openly taught abrogation of the Torah. Have YOU read the NT?
The author of James did not use a mistranslation of the Hebrew bible like Paul did. If Paul knew Hebrew he would have translated correctly and not incorrectly as the Septuagint does.
Answer the question I posed about James, Peter and the others worshipping for decades in the midst of observant Jews and proclaiming Jesus god.
It doesn't matter that James is written in Greek. The theology it espouses totally opposes the theology of Paul.
Answer the simple question: Do you think James, Peter and the other first Jewish followers of Jesus lived and worshipped in the holy of holies in Jerusalem for THIRTY years proclaiming Jesus was equal with god?? Can you be that feckless?
When you've read Painter, Butz and many other scholarly works on James and the early church, you may not be so quick to trumpet ignorance.
You speak of common sense but you show that you totally lack it. You think that James, Peter and the other first Jewish followers of Jesus lived and worshipped in the holiest site in Judaism for THIRTY years proclaiming that Jesus was god??? You are clearly either not very bright or just ridiculously stubborn. They participated in ALL feast and holidays as laid out in the Law. They in no way saw Jesus as a substitute for the Law. You really need an education and some common sense.
You will find all the textual comparisons you could ever want in "Just James" Then segue to "James the Brother of Jesus" by Geoffery Butz. Or you could just compare the book of James with Paul's claims. Paul claimed that faith is the key to salvation. James asked "can a man's faith save him?" And made clear that the answer is no. Paul claimed Abraham was justified by faith. James said by works in direct opposition. Educate yourself. And take off the blinders.
JG: Begin your education with "Just James" by John Painter. An extremely detailed account of the first Jewish/Christians who were totally Jewish and only differed from their fellow Jews in that they thought Jesus was the promised Davidic Messiah. Just like other Jews throughout history have thought other men the Messiah. Again, the Messiah is ALWAYS a man in Judaism, never god incarnate. This is antithetical to Judaism and reveals a total lack of knowledge of theology on your part.
What? You claim Paul was a Pharisee? Paul couldn't even read Hebrew as proven by his continual use of the Septuagint. And it goes without saying that a Pharisee would never call the Law a "curse" or seek to abrogate it. An education would serve you well.
JG: The first followers of Jesus were led by James, his brother. They lived and worshipped in the temple in Jerusalem for over 30 years until James' was killed in the early 60's. They kept all festivals including Yom Kippur where each man makes atonement for his own sins. They in no way saw Jesus as divine. The messiah is NOT a divinity in Judaism and it is after all, their concept. Do you think Muslims would let men worship Mohammed as god in their midst? This is not difficult.
"Stop being ignorant, JG. The references to Jesus were forgeries done by a Christian translator, most likely Eusabius. Josephus was not the forger and I am not contradicting my self. What I am finding is that you are using more and more spinnery and ignoring most of anything I say in a desperate attempt to hold on to your illusions. You have absolutely no interest in learning what actually happened in history but rather, to molding history to something that upholds your delusions.
3) Come to think of it - one poster had it summed up quite nicely and it fits you to a "T": Debating with a fundamentalist is like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks over the pieces, poops on the board and then flies away, sqwacking victory."
oh yeah, can you please provide the name of that "writing" that says that Paul was a Greek convert"
"Epiphaneus in his book Heresies testified that Paul had no Pharisee background but that he was the son of Gentile parents who converted to Judaism in Tarsus and that the the Ebionites were the true successors of Jesus ."
"Paul ...., because they were going against what traditional Judaism taught. "
Someone is handing you a load of BS, JG. It wasn't the nicey nicey situation that you think it was. Paul could have cared less about Judaism in Israel. He was sent by Rome to quell Jewish uprisings.
"Now this is just pure fiction, since the very beginning Christians have seen Jesus as divine."
Christians following Paul's teachings have but the Jewish Christians did not. Pauls status as a Pharisee is in doubt, JG. There is even a writing that claims Paul was a Greek convert and, indeed, his thinking is Greek and his teachings came from the Septuagint rather than Torah which would be the book of choice for a Pharisee.
" then why were they being persecuted? Why was Stephen stoned to death(Acts 7:54-8:1) by the Jewish religious authorities"
Because Jesus hadn't proved himself to be a messiah to the rest of the Jews and the gentile christians differed in dogma from the Jewish Christians who were caught in the middle and eventually destroyed by Romans in 70 AD. Remember that Paul's dogma had already caught on in Rome before 70AD.
"it is a new concept presented by the Gospels. It has no parallels with Jewish or Greco-Roman traditions. "
Exactly - BUT it is identical with pagan belief in virgin birth, death and resurrection and man gods. That is the only place that it could have come from, JG. Remember what I said about a search for "dying suffering dieties" - did you check?
JG _ In fact that is the very same reason Paul while being a pharisee wanted to destroy the early church, because they were going against what traditional Judaism taught. "
No, the early Jewish Christian Church was entirely Jewish except that they veiwed Jesus as the fully human Messiah.
"Again, I tell you there is no evidence that Pagans were looking for suffering and dying deities"
What? Well, you can assert that all you want, but you're simply uneducated if you think so.
You should also avail yourself to the large volume of scholarship available on James and the first Jewish/Christian community. They lived and worshipped as Jews and they rejected Paul and his interpretation of Jesus because Paul sought to abrogate the Torah in direct opposition to Jesus' teaching.
2) Just out of curiosity, I did a search under the description you gave me "suffering dying dieties". Seems they are even more common than I thought and there is even a list of virgin births along with some pretty good references - You might be interested.
I think monotheistic is the word you want. They opposed the Pharisees' use of Oral Law and held only to the Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament). They also differed with the Pharisees on many theological tenets: for example, they did not believe in resurrection and the immortality of the soul. They are thought to have been the party of the Zadokite priestly elite, but still Jews.
JG - I have no doubt that Jesus or someone like him lived, however, the elements of virgin birth, vicarious atonement, human sacrifice and resurrection just don't exist in Jewish thinking.
"For example the Quran mentions Jesus, but of coarse no one will ever say that the Quran is a christian book, it is the same thing with the Gnostic and Docetist gospels. "
But it upholds some elements of the Jesus story, doesn't it? Not quite the same as the bible though.
"The New Testament was not edited, or influenced by foreign factors. There was no "Different Christianities", but only ONE, the Christianity taught by Jesus, and consistently preached by his Apostles, and Paul. "
And christianity covers its eyes and ears and bawls "NOT" You can discount history if you want, but your belief exists true only in your own mind, jg.
"First of all there is not a single manuscript of Matthew in Hebrew "
Yes there is:
Matthew collected the oracles (ta logia) in the Hebrew language, and each interpreted them as best he could." - Papias (Eusebius, H.E. 3.39.16)
As having learnt by tradition concerning the four Gospels, which alone are unquestionable in the Church of God under heaven, that first was written according to Matthew,
2) who was once a tax collector but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, who published it for those who from Judaism came to believe, composed as it was in the Hebrew language." - Origen (Eusebius, H.E. 6.25.4)
"Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples" Why didn't the Pauline Christians erased these texts?-yet they are found in our "Pauline Bible"-"
I have no idea but it does illustrate that they weren't the buddies that you seem to think they are.
"Yes there is ONE Christianity, the Christianity found in the New Testament"
And WHO do you think is responsible for the new testament except Pauline Christians. AND WHO do you think Ignatius, Clement and the others were except Pauline Christians. Jewish christians died out or were dispersed in 70 AD along with the Jerusalem Church.
2) What went into the bible was also doctored. Hebrew Matthew is different in many areas from our Matthew. Mark has been added to. In fact, although I have not seen this for myself, I am told that the nativity in Matthew is not present in the Hebrew Matthew. Your bible is doctored big time, JG.
Acts 8:1 absolutely correlates with history. Paul was sent from the Herodian court to "divide the Jews" according to Josephus. In Acts, he is in agreement with the murder of Stephen. And you will note that there was a persecution of the Jerusalem Church which was the church of the Jewish Christians NOT gentile Christians. I can see now why the Roman Catholic church didn't allow it's people to own a bible for the longest time.
How is it that there is no evidence of jesus, he was a person who lived by the laws of not making idols and the deciples would have also known this law, Archaeologists seem to only want to look for statues, and that type of thing to confirm someone lived. there are claim that the tomb of Jesus in Kashmir India, and he also spent time there. Archaeologist look for what is beneath the ground, not following his steps as a detective would looking for a lost person
MistyMarie1970 4 months ago
@MistyMarie1970 To not have -any- writings from the time in his life is rather stunning. No accounts from the Jewish or Roman authority during his execution. No bust carved in his image. No paintings in his image. No witnesses. No accounts. No coins. There really is nothing until about two decades later with some poorly written epistles and very, very shady sources otherwise.
SocialDissimulation 3 months ago
This talk only shows that most "biblical scholars" are compromised with the world. Of course the Bible is correct in history, the Dead Sea Scrolls attest pretty well to that, and the Ark of the Covenant even better. Which will you believe, some guys who change their minds as the wind blows to keep their salaries coming, or the unchanging Word of God?
earlysda 5 months ago
@earlysda The ark of the covenant? What museum is that in?
fdasherv 5 months ago
@earlysda Do the dead scrolls really prove that the bible is correct, or rather does it help confirm that certain books of the bible were copied correctly? It's still possible to have something copied correctly but the information in those copies to be false.
Also, it's good that people change their minds when new evidence is presented. Could you imagine where we would be right now if we still believed things and never changed our mind about them?
bander87 3 weeks ago
@bander87 Your point about the copying being accurate is well taken.
It is true tho, that the oldest large body of manuscripts is in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and my point was that the history contained in those scrolls has been found time after time to be correct, with not even one "proven without a doubt" error.
earlysda 3 weeks ago
The only people who are claiming such wild unfounded ideas are people who have an anti-Christian agenda and have nothing to do with truth. There are archeological finds in Israel today that bare the name of David. Not only that but there are manuscripts that backup the historical records.
There are "vast" amounts of evidence for Christ from antiquity, that silence the educated sceptics. No sane person can deny that Christ existed in history.
Surfxeo 7 months ago
@Surfxeo. the last thing you want to hear is the truth it would seem, so many gods so many denominations of these gods, biblical scholars argue time and again over matters on a manmade myth. yet you claim that over 70% of scientists are insane.then step away from the computer[science technology],return to your cave. then start to read some books. study all the other gods and tell us why they dont count,including the greek gods. to save yourself from further embarressment. FACEPALM.
kram83au 7 months ago
@kram83au I'd never suggest 70 % of scientists are insane. That is a non sensical statement. I do recognise that not all statement by scientist are statements of science.
I read at least 1 book a week. At the moment I am reading a book written in the 2nd century A.D. by Irenaeus of Lyon.
I have read most gods from ancient Greece, Egypt, Middle East, Mesopotamia, Australia, some American, north and south. The only ones in the running is the God of the Hebrews. He actually entered into history.
Surfxeo 7 months ago
@Surfxeo good for you. your last statement, about the other gods and that the god of the hebrews enterted into history. so are you saying that ,that paritcular god is fact and the rest of the historical mythological gods are all false. come on. its pure plagerism of past mythological gods.there are many biblical scholars that have real doubt that christ ever existed. the documentation by the romans of that period is strong, yet not a whimper of any so called messiah being crucified.
kram83au 7 months ago
@kram83au Jesus Christ is as hard a fact of history as and other person from antiquity.
Most biblical scholars do no doubt the historicity of the 4 gospels, those that don't are of the minority fringe groups.
Nothing from the NT is plagerised.
Read 1st and 2nd century history books on the subject. Up to about 310 AD Christianity was severly persecuted by Roman authority.
P.S. Be careful who you quote as most people seem to back up their claims using fictional novels such as Dan Browns books.
Surfxeo 7 months ago
@Surfxeo he did not exist. [jesus], and the NT is plagerised in some parts. if you cant see that then you cant see shit.. stop perpetuating such childish nonsense. let go of the security blanket of religion and grow some balls man.
kram83au 7 months ago 2
@Surfxeo Which first and second century history books have you read that discuss Jesus? This should be good.
acr08807 5 months ago
@acr08807 The New Testament, for one!!! This reply should be good :P
Surfxeo 5 months ago
@Surfxeo And now you're citing "fictional novels." Cheers.
acr08807 5 months ago
Thank you for posting this, spaceagebachelor.
writersblock26 8 months ago
From A rabbinic Point of view Genesis is a Poem, So go figure what the rest is . The gospels are said to be written between some 20- 100yrs AFTER the "Fact" and published as writting in what century after, HELLO!!!!!!
Please wake up fundamentalists.
hitobedut 9 months ago
bloody hell there are so many stupid people who think jesus is a fact on here lol
apocalypticfire 9 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Jesus of Nazareth is the most historiclly documented person in all of ancient human history. FACT!
rianpop 10 months ago
@rianpop
"...As a matter of fact, the amount of information concerning him is comparatively meager. Aside from the four Gospels, and a few scattered allusions in the epistles, contemporary history is almost silent concerning him."
- Merrill C. Tenney - theist scholar
spaceagebachelor 10 months ago 9
@rianpop
"...there are very few sources for knowledge of the historical Jesus beyond the four canonical Gospels. Paul and Josephus offer little more than tidbits. Claims that later apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material supply independent and reliable historical information about Jesus are largely fantasy. In the end, the historian is left with the difficult task of sifting through the Four Gospels for historical tradition."
- John P. Meier - theist scholar
spaceagebachelor 10 months ago 9
@rianpop
"Apart from the New Testament writings and later writings dependent upon these, our sources of information about the life and teaching of Jesus are scanty and problematic"
- F.F. Bruce, "New Testament History" founder of the modern evangelical movement
spaceagebachelor 10 months ago 4
@rianpop
"The only definite account of his life and teachings is contained in the four Gospels of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All other historical records of the time are silent about him. The brief mentions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have been generally regarded as not genuine and as Christian interpolations; Some scholars have even gone so far as to hold that the entire Jesus story is a myth…"
- The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia
spaceagebachelor 10 months ago 6
@spaceagebachelor Not the best video. I mean interesting topic, but I was hoping he would actually go into the points he makes. A pastor could just as easily say in a church, "There is no indisputable proof that validates the theory of evolution". Without discussion and supporting evidence the points people make are practically useless. I don't doubt that Avalos does that, but just was hoping for more of the video.
Do you know where I can find better videos of him, not much on youtube?
JordanRossMackenzie 9 months ago
@JordanRossMackenzie
Full video is on Google Video - link in description...
spaceagebachelor 9 months ago
@spaceagebachelor Oh and just wonder what aethists thought about the writings about Josephus in particular. I've read he was one of (if not the) best historians of his time. I know his mention of Jesus (and brother James) in his writings is brief, but it seemed to me that they validated Jesus' existence and that he was considered the Son of God and that the disciples of his claimed to be witness to his ressurection.
Do you have any links on this? Thanks mate.
JordanRossMackenzie 9 months ago
@rianpop idiot
apocalypticfire 9 months ago
John 14:14 says that all you have to do is believe and you can ask Jesus for anything for the glory of god and he will do it. Read it yourself. So why don't you who are believers go to the hospitals and ask god to heal the terminally ill, or regrow an amputated limb, heal someone of cancer. These things will glorify god and prove without a doubt that the bible is true. Don't talk about all the phony preachers and the false healings they supposedly did. Have it documented in a hospital.
TJinSG 11 months ago
There was a TV show called Dark Skies many years ago. It mentioned actual documented events, famous people and places from the last 60 years. The premise of the show was that aliens from outer space were behind everything happening in history. So, using the same logic Bible believers use, since the movie showed real events, people and place that are common knowledge of our times, then that tv show is actually all true.
TJinSG 11 months ago
To all of you who believe the Bible is true because it mentions places and people during the supposed time of Jesus, well, I saw a movie that told about a man who came to Los Angeles to save mankind. There was another who followed him to destroy mankind but he had to kill a certain person first. The first man was protecting that person. the movie showed actual places that we know are real. So that means the movie must be true.... The Treminator....he will be back!!!!
TJinSG 11 months ago
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“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."
q41n 1 year ago
avalos: what a joke...
BeLogicalWillU 1 year ago
in fact the contrary is happened in last few years.The discoveries in the city of David area in Jerusalem as well as the new discoveries all ower israel made the biblical minimalist theory death.David palace ,Solomonic wall,Judean inscribtions,.Elah fortres and this are just small parts of discoveries found in recent years
and THIS IS THE SITUATION IN 2010
btw I AM NOT RELIGIOUS
Tomislavv2 1 year ago
9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the SUN and MOON and ELEVEN STARS were bowing down to me."
10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?"
Joseph and the eleven other brothers are the twelve zodiac signs that is the children of the SUN and MOON
sagitarian000028 1 year ago
Man never changes- If you read the bible and look around you'll see mankind doing the same things over and over again. Regardless of anything else- saying the Bible doesn't apply to man because it was written long ago, is senseless. Psycology and self help books pull the majority of their information (wether intentionally or not) from the Bible. To dismiss is offhandedly would be ignorant.
unclearimage 1 year ago
I have studied the Bible for many years and have yet to see anything that suggests that it is less than "historical." Biblical truth is what history is all about since history is really His Story. But it is always fun and entertaining to watch yet another David Friedrich Strauss arise to make tall claims about the current state of Bible scholarship and how the believing world has been deceived.
pbrucetube 1 year ago
Just watched the full 2 part video which blows the Bible as history sky high. Dr Avalos's lecture is really a must watch for anyone interested in the Bible as an historical document as seen in the light of contemporary archaeological research and Biblical scholarship.
Of particular interest is Dr Avalos's background as a Pentecostal child evangelist who became an atheist through studying the Bible at University in preparation for a career as a missionary.
colourmegone 1 year ago
There are plenty of eyewitness accounts of Jesus. One of them wrote:
"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty."
Its only because its in the bible itself that these accounts are discounted, but the fact is the bible is an incredibly reliable source in itself. The NT has more and older manuscripts than any other ancient writing with incredible agreement between manuscripts.
chewy531 1 year ago
@chewy531
"Its only because its in the bible itself that these accounts are discounted"
yes, being self referential is a bad thing.
"the fact is the bible is an incredibly reliable source in itself." try telling that to the earth that's supposed to be fixed and unmoving (Psalm 93:1)
as for the supposed agreement between transcipts. there are contradictions even in the modern bible, and many books that aren't included at all thanks to various councils rewriting it.
pyr666 1 year ago
there was a recent program talking about the historical king david and solomon. I cannot remember on what station it aired. It had the recent evidence where a king claimed to kill a descendant of David. However, there should b evidence that King Solomon or King David did not exist. u can't disregard historical details outlined in the Bible because of its religious nature. You can speculate that some details may b wrong but u have no idea if they are wrong unless u have conflicting evidence.
ddisil 1 year ago
lack of evidence does not equal evidence. This is basic logic
sunshineuk1965 1 year ago
Is he pushing the Jesus mythicists view here? He is at least overstating and misleading.
agnostaxian 1 year ago
In 2007 that WAS partialy truth. So what? Does it mean that only things dag out exist? .. Nonsens. By the way in late 90's they discovered that Israelites were in Ewgipt as slaves. About time of the speech they dug out palace od David and Salomon! Hector, do you still care for the Truth?
lachanonim 1 year ago
@lachanonim Where did you get that nonsense ? As of today,there is zero evidence that the israelites were ever in Egypt. The BAS confirms what I am saying.
lizazoon 1 year ago
@lizazoon
So, neither U know about the towns: Pithom and Rameses
lachanonim 1 year ago
@lachanonim Who cares about Pithom and Rameses. The whole bible is irrelevant to modern living. Bible study and bible archaeology is just a waste of time. The jews have been digging for decades, without any success, to prove their religion, culture and claim to Palestine.
lizazoon 1 year ago
@lizazoon Irrelevant? These cities were covered with soil, only Bib le told about them. Those were citiet BUILD by Israelities. As to digging - if excavations are led by atheist they hardly see anything that confirms Bible. Look up for yourself
lachanonim 1 year ago
@lachanonim The bible is irrelvant; look up the videos of:Hector Avalos (Ph.D. 1991, Harvard University, 1991, M.T.S. 1985, Harvard Divinity School, B.A. in Anthropology, 1982 University of Arizona) is professor of religious studies at Iowa State University and the author or editor of six books on Biblical studies and religion, including his recently published work, The End of Biblical archaeology.
lizazoon 1 year ago
Where's the whole program? It used to be on here
maddtappin 1 year ago
@maddtappin it's on google - follow link
spaceagebachelor 1 year ago
Just scraping the barrel.
FleetingRelevance 1 year ago
JESUS LOVEYOU
Tayoltita07 1 year ago
OUR LORD JESUS said, if they hate you, remember that they hated me first, if they receive you, they receive me, if they reject you, they reject me. The LORD will send them strong delusions that they believe a lie because they turn their backs and receive not the love of the truth that the light of the gospel should shine upon them and be saved., to turn their back on GODs love, forgiveness, and salvation through JESUS CHRIST is the sin that will never be forgiven.
trubornagain 2 years ago
@trubornagain
Fail, if you look at the old testament and history in general the Jews were hated LONG before Jesus is said to have walked.
ThieleM 1 year ago
do not cast you pearls before swine, or give what is holy onto dogs. JESUS said I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
trubornagain 2 years ago
2 COR 4 3,4 But if our gospel be hid, its hid to them that are lost, in whom the god of this world satan hath blinded the minds of them which believe not lest the light of the glorious gospel of CHRIST who is the image of GOD should shine onto them. Satan does not want you to come to christ, he even goes as far as to mask Christianity in the cloak of religion. Satan is the biggest promoter of religion in the history of the universe.
trubornagain 2 years ago
There is only one statement about Jesus being the Messiah in Josephus' history written about a century after Jesus' life. Scholars have shown that it is an interpolatiion (not really in the original text).
brucegrenehan1 2 years ago
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amen, and those are just one of many finds.
pissedpatriot1776 2 years ago
wow. what about all of the recorded historical accounts of Jesus according to Josephus, Pliny the Younger, and Tacitus? Do we disregard these? What about the Tel-Dan Stele- a philistine tablet mentioning the House of David, do we disregard this evidence? What about Jabal-al-lawz, and the colden calf petroglyphs in Saudia Arabia? Do we throuw that out along with the Pilate/Tiberius inscriptions?They said that neither David nor Pilate was real, until they found EVIDENCE! It's there. Deal with it.
pissedpatriot1776 2 years ago
Atf got this video you sent. There is no proof that this video is right. What about Tim Lahayes Babylon Rising series. That series was great!
TheForthcoming1 2 years ago
To each their own.
mordinvan 2 years ago
ok, so ancient copies of a fictional god's failed attempts to cow humanity are the most important archeological discovery?
I prefer some of the tombs of Chinese emperors, where the swords had been chrome electroplated thousands of years before the west discovered practical applications for electricity.
mordinvan 2 years ago
Really? So ancient copies of harry potter are the most important discovery of the 20th century?
mordinvan 2 years ago
Amen. And thats just one of MANY my friend.
pissedpatriot1776 2 years ago
Albright was actually a liberal skeptic until he became convinced of the integrity of the Bible from recently discovered manuscripts and from archaelogical finds.
Although Hector Avalos is a scholar, he undermines his own integrity by making numerous gaffes here ("Jacob" was in Egypt instead of "Joseph" etc). He knows how to make a mediocre powerpoint presentation.
That's it.
Albright was one of the most respected archaeologists of the 20th century.
There's the difference.
jcr4runner 2 years ago
Jacob WAS in Egypt. He came there during the seven-year famine with Joseph's other brothers, and they didn't recognize Joseph at first. Remember?
COMALiteJ 2 years ago
Yes, but why would there be archaeological evidence of Jacob in Egypt?
Joseph was the Prime Minister.
Moses was a builder of cities.
And there IS evidence of that.
It makes no sense for Avalos to pick on "Jacob" instead of Moses.
Albright was not a "crypto-fundamentaist"-- he was a theological liberal. He later moderated his views based on the evidence.
Avalos is either ignorant himself or he disrespects his audience as so ignorant they will accept every conjecture he makes.
jcr4runner 2 years ago
What evidence? Merely saying "And there IS evidence of that" is not evidence. Can you show me specific non-Judaeo-Christian evidence of either of those things (Joseph as Prime Minister of Egypt or Moses as builder of cities in Egypt)?
COMALiteJ 2 years ago
It's an interesting version of reality based o wish fulfillment.
Albright is not "sometimes known as a crypto-fundamaentalist" or any kind of a fundamentalist anywhere, anytime except in this power point presentation.
"If you were to take a poll of biblical scholars, they would tell you ..."
Of course there is no such poll!
Don't you find it insulting that just because he is credentialed that Avalos can just make stuff up as he goes a long and adoring skeptics and atheists swallow it?
jcr4runner 2 years ago
Albright is considered THE giant of Middle Eastern archaeology, not just biblical archaeology. He was an expert in several languages. an archaeologist, a papyrologist, a biblical scholar, an expert on ceramics.
He could cover the whole field. We don't see his kind too often.
Today we have Ph.D.s who major in minors, so-called "bible scholars" who can parrot the "findings" of other liberals or conservatives.
They have reason to be envious of Albright, but childish jealousy is all I see here.
jcr4runner 2 years ago
The Bible is an arbitrary collection of myths written by MEN who conveniently state they were inspired....proof????
deftdaft 2 years ago
Jesus has such a better life for you guys, in heaven. No ear has heard, no eye has seen what God has prepared for those who love him. God will even bless his children on earth, but faith in what Jesus has done is what makes you right with God and is what gives you access to the Father in Heaven, he cares about all your needs and cares but He wants you to want more of Him than anything else, then His mighty blessings will come.
perfectshot35 2 years ago
the bible doesn't talk about ufos. Jesus loves you.
perfectshot35 2 years ago
ya ya ya unbelief unbelief unbelief, the world is full of it, the earth is full of it
perfectshot35 2 years ago
Yeah, and Piltdown man was the real missing link, too.
jnwaco 2 years ago
There are places in Israel from Jesus' time that are still there. If you look hard for evidence of Jesus' existence you WILL find it.
perfectshot35 2 years ago
There are places in Egypt from Horus' time that are still there. That's a pretty weak argument.
spaceagebachelor 2 years ago 8
horus was a false god. That's a pretty weak argument. Jesus' tomb is still in Jerusalem. Simon the tanner's house is still in Jappa. There is a church in Redding california that has many miraculous healings. You should go visit it.
perfectshot35 2 years ago
Horus was a real God! Trust me! I know these things!
Prove to me that he was a false god.
Symbaoe 2 years ago
There is only one God and that is Jesus, the Son of God. Jesus died and rose again so that anyone who could just do the simple task of believing the truth, that it made them right with God, could have a relationship with Him and be saved. My Father in Heaven has made it so easy for people to be saved. Salvation is as close to people as their lips and hearts. If they believe that Jesus made them right with God by His death and resurrection, they will be saved.
perfectshot35 2 years ago
There is only one God, Elah. You are following Shaitan! Only through Elah can you gain salvation! If you only put aside your logic, common sense and reason, you too would see the sublime beauty of Elah, who by definition exists. You're Religious experiences were caused by Shaitan! If you had TRULY experience God, you would be a follower of Elah, not Yeshua. Elah is great!!!
Jokes aside, can you see how ridiculous your statements are when I use them? Think about that.
Symbaoe 2 years ago
No! It is easier for children to understand salvation though because they haven't been puffed up with knowledge like "wise people". God loves you and if you seek after Jesus with all your heart you will find him. That is a promise from God. Go to bethel church in redding california, and you will see many healings and the power of God, and most importantly, the love of God. I'm not like a muslim who doesn't have any power or any other believer in lies. I am empowered by God to preach the gospel.
perfectshot35 2 years ago
I would like you to carefully examine what you just said. Do you have children, or younger siblings? I am surrounded by them, and I must say, they are pretty naive and simple. What is the difference between believing in God and believing in Santa Clause? I saw faeries when I was a child, but I know now that Faeries CANNOT exist. Another man I know saw the Easter bunny. Children are no standard to go by on these matters.
Muslims claim miracles too, you know.
Symbaoe 2 years ago
Simple, santa clause is fake and clearly made up by man but the bible is God breathed and Jesus, the Son of God, died and rose again so that all you have to do is simply have faith in his death and resurrection. It's too easy to get saved and made right with God for most older people because they are puffed up with knowledge that results in unbelief. Jesus is the way to the relationship with God, He cares about you, tell him what you need, he wants to heal your wounds. God is the best parent.
perfectshot35 2 years ago
I read books about Santa Clause when I was a child, and believed them. Santa Clause cared about me too, because he would give me presents every year.
Everything you say is unsubstantiated, albiet that absurd mention of a Healing Church. If prayer worked, we wouldn't have seatbelts, or medicine.
All you have is Faith, and the presupposition that Faith is a good thing. I strongly advise you to question this default, and open your mind.
Symbaoe 2 years ago
you actually have a closed mind. The bible clearly talks about all sorts of false teachings. I have heard God's audible voice, telling me that He would heal my wounds. And since He has, and I have such a close relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, who reveals the Father. I tell him my every care and he heals me and takes care of my problems. I'm not led by feelings that lead me away from the truth. But in order to live a life where God's power is prevalent, you must be like a child. much love
perfectshot35 2 years ago
I have investigated Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Spirituality, Deism and Atheism, the latter wherein I currently reside, as it fits with the facts of life. It is YOU who is closeminded.
I have induced myself into an Epiphany using the Rama Mantra (RAMARAMARAMARAMARAMA etc). Epiphanies occur to ALL people, and all religions monopolize them, each claiming that the adherents of THEIR faith are experiencing the real deal, whilst all others are deceived by the devil, etc.
Children are amoral.
Symbaoe 2 years ago
"The bible clearly talks about all sorts of false teachings."
You mean false teachings like the way those evil scientists say that insects have six legs, and how your evil eyes see six if you look at one with your own eyes, and your evil fingers feel six if one crawls on your fingertips, etc., when the Bible very clearly says that all insects (aka "flying creeping things" in the KJV) have only FOUR feet?
Leviticus 11:20-23. Yes, very much including verse 23.
COMALiteJ 2 years ago
Scientists also recommend pills of dapsone, clofazimine and rifampicine to lepers, whereas the Old Testament clearly states that they should kill a little bird, smear its blood on another bird, and give the high-priest 2 lambs, plus flour and olive oil, to get cured.
LiberdadeHedonista 2 years ago
It is easier for children to understand salvation though because they haven't been puffed up with knowledge like "wise people".
perfectshot35 2 years ago
@spaceagebachelor
The whole "the places are real so Jesus was real" is THE weakest argument in a huge list of weak arguments.
ThieleM 1 year ago
@perfectshot35
Spiderman is from New York and many of the places from Spiderman comics are real. So following your argument New York is evidence for Spiderman being real.
ThieleM 1 year ago
@perfectshot35 William lane craig debates Dr. Avalos. A recording is on YouTube. I highly recommend checking it out. There is some drama with WLC opening speech causing a questioner to accuse him of attacking Avalos (ad hominem). There is also a good exchange of views on the historical Jesus. A key point is when WLC contends that Avalos uses the Bible as a historically accurate document for ancient health care but then denies the Bibles reliability in regards to the historical Jesus.
ddisil 1 year ago
You guys are just going to believe some guy without questioning? Go to Israel and see all the biblical sites and then listen to this guy.
perfectshot35 2 years ago 3
Some guy?
Hector Avalos (Ph.D. 1991, Harvard University, 1991, M.T.S. 1985, Harvard Divinity School, B.A. in Anthropology, 1982 University of Arizona) is professor of religious studies at Iowa State University and the author or editor of six books on Biblical studies and religion, including his recently published work, The End of Biblical Studies.
spaceagebachelor 2 years ago 3
@perfectshot35
You guys are just going to believe some book without questioning?
Go to new York and then tell my Spiderman is not real!
HA! See how that works. Learn from it.
4me2cclearly 1 year ago
I don't know where this guy is looking then, he need to keep up with the most current findings.
micah1116 2 years ago
Spaceagebachelor:
"Genesis is historical and scientific"?
I wonder if those Mr. Avalos did research on the subject because in some way, the church back then tried to reconcile science with Genesis and fail. (Peter, J. Bowler, 1989).
Exsecrabilis 2 years ago
You're talking about the Teacher of Righteousness of the Dead Sea Scrolls, is that right?
It's an interesting theory but not one most biblical scholars - even if you exclude the fundamentalist - take for granted.
That's not to say that the Jesus of the gospels is one and the same with the Jesus of history. There are countless reasons that make that assumption untenable. Still scholars tend to be believe that there are things that do trace back to a 1st century Jesus in the gospels however.
myintellectualjourny 2 years ago
As far as I know, the only evidence of Jesus is from the Bible. That is, there is no historical Jesus.
stud6999 2 years ago
(1 of 2)
I agree that the religious convictions of the gospel authors exclude them from being concerned an unbiased source. I'd actually for other reasons (contradictions & clear literary inventions based on the OT) reject their being presumed as pure history. That doesn't mean there is no history to them at all.
myintellectualjourny 2 years ago
(oops "concerned" should be "considered")
myintellectualjourny 2 years ago
(2 of 2)
There are actually ways to argue for what is probably history based on what doesn't serve the authors interests. Check out former fundamentalist bible scholar Bart Erhman's book Jesus Interrupted for details of how even secular bible scholars conclude this on some points. I held more your view before becoming familiar with there line of reasoning, but I still reject Christianity and the gospels as historic in general.
myintellectualjourny 2 years ago
I understand exactly what you mean.
I actually think that the Gospel's were written based on some man, due to the fact that the writers go through the trouble of having Joseph and Mary travel from Nazareth to Bethlehem (as was prophesied) instead of having them live there in the first place. I guess what I meant to say is that there is no historical evidence for Jesus outside of the Bible which is very questionable and has been edited over the years to serve the purposes of many people.
stud6999 2 years ago
Absolutely. I agree - the gospels are a big mess of literary religious imagery and who knows what else that is not actually historic. I think calling it religious historic fiction is a fair way to put it. My main point to any Christian is that there thinking anyone should be expected to look at it as 100% historic is completely ridiculous and if they just learn enough about it, they will know why. I want Christian apologists held to a higher standard. The more Christians know, the better.
myintellectualjourny 2 years ago
Comment removed
Exsecrabilis 2 years ago
stud6999:
As mention priorly in another channel, the name Jesus may have being a common name use over and over that self-claim "Christians" try to claim their deity with that name, but may not have research thorough enough to be accurate. savvy?
P.S. Greetings and Salutations.
sorry about the misspelling..
Exsecrabilis 2 years ago
Just no that our sun is the light of the world and supports ALL life on earth. Without it we are doomed and with ignorance, we'll doom ourselves with or without the sun.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
fear mongering, bullshit circular logic, pascal's wager, pulpit preaching, wildly outrageous claims with no evidence.... you really hit all the bases with this post, sounds like your ready to get your doctorate in "Creation science" lulz.
helloblah12223 2 years ago 4
Wow, I guess a lot of "christian" "scholars" are not christian or scholars.
ryank119 2 years ago
I don't know why you think that. An Answer given by a scholar doesn't come from public opinion. They are to arrive at their conclusion based on facts. Not based on what they want to see or what is in favor for the masses. For some reason most people think that these christian scholars are only there to "debunk" or "disprove" something. But i would really doubt that anyone of these people can side with some one who just hates religion. I highly doubt that.
Maikkeru 2 years ago
Jesus never was one unique historical figure.
On the historical level he is composed by at least two figures, the samarian prophet and James the essene. There are others who contributed to the myth of a historical Jesus but these two I mentioned above are the easiest to extract from the myth of a historical Jesus.
Jesus, as portrayed in the gospels, never existed as a person.
Helmer2 2 years ago
The speaker has Darth Vader syndrome.
kaduisaui 3 years ago
The speaker sounds like "Fire Marshall Bill"
ciphro 3 years ago
Are you kidding? NO one outside a fundamentalist college claims to know the authors of the gospels. And I don't think James is the original author of the book that bears his name. I think it's written in the tradition of James and if you read the books I mentioned, you'd see the evidence. What is very clear is that James was the first leader of the Jesus movement and that James was a very observant Jew. He in NO way saw Jesus as a replacement for the Law.
Ta-ta.
countceprano 3 years ago
Gotta go. Maybe I'll check in tomorrow.
countceprano 3 years ago
"Aren't you forgetting about them?"
Not at all. We have no idea who they were and there's certainly no reason to believe they were observant Jews. Certainly anyone who teaches a man is equal with god is NOT an observant Jew. I'm not sure why that's difficult for you.
James was the leader of the first followers of Jesus. James was a devout Jew. The authors of the gospels are anonymous. Again, this is not difficult. The VAST majority of scholars don't think Peter wrote anything.
countceprano 3 years ago
Paul called the Law a "curse" See Psalm 119 for how an observant Jew really feels about the Law. And read the whole thing. Paul said salvation was by faith alone. James said "Can a man's faith save him?' Paul taught abrogation of the Torah. Jesus said "whoever breaks the least of the Law and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom". It's not hard, JG and it's all there. Not only outside the canon, but right there in plain sight inside the canon.
countceprano 3 years ago
JG: It's simple. James was chosen to lead the first followers of Jesus after he was gone. James lived and worshipped as a Jew for decades until his death. James knew Jesus and his interpretation of their religion, which was Judaism. A messiah who is god incarnate and who dies as an atonement for the sins of the world is antithetical to Judaism. James AND Jesus were Jews. It was Paul who taught what's come down to us as Christianity and it has nothing to do with Jesus or Judaism.
countceprano 3 years ago
No, it's clear who is ignorant. Get an education. James was killed in Jerusalem in the 60's, where he had been since Jesus' death. Where he had been worshipping as a devout JEW, in the holy of holies. Where he had repeated several times daily the S'hema "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE!"
Get an education. Jews, including Jesus revere the Law and affirm it's eternal nature. Paul taught abrogation of the Law. That's why he was sent to the Gentiles by James.
countceprano 3 years ago
Jesus affirmed the eternality of the Torah. Paul said it was too difficult to keep. Jesus said "whoever breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom". Paul openly taught abrogation of the Torah. Have YOU read the NT?
countceprano 3 years ago
The author of James did not use a mistranslation of the Hebrew bible like Paul did. If Paul knew Hebrew he would have translated correctly and not incorrectly as the Septuagint does.
Answer the question I posed about James, Peter and the others worshipping for decades in the midst of observant Jews and proclaiming Jesus god.
And I went to seminary.
countceprano 3 years ago
If you truly think that the concept of forgiveness of sins doesn't exist in Judaism, you're even more ignorant than I thought.
countceprano 3 years ago
Address the question I posed.
countceprano 3 years ago
James addresses NO Christian elements of salvation. Read again. It's a totally Jewish book in theology.
countceprano 3 years ago
It doesn't matter that James is written in Greek. The theology it espouses totally opposes the theology of Paul.
Answer the simple question: Do you think James, Peter and the other first Jewish followers of Jesus lived and worshipped in the holy of holies in Jerusalem for THIRTY years proclaiming Jesus was equal with god?? Can you be that feckless?
When you've read Painter, Butz and many other scholarly works on James and the early church, you may not be so quick to trumpet ignorance.
countceprano 3 years ago
You speak of common sense but you show that you totally lack it. You think that James, Peter and the other first Jewish followers of Jesus lived and worshipped in the holiest site in Judaism for THIRTY years proclaiming that Jesus was god??? You are clearly either not very bright or just ridiculously stubborn. They participated in ALL feast and holidays as laid out in the Law. They in no way saw Jesus as a substitute for the Law. You really need an education and some common sense.
countceprano 3 years ago
You will find all the textual comparisons you could ever want in "Just James" Then segue to "James the Brother of Jesus" by Geoffery Butz. Or you could just compare the book of James with Paul's claims. Paul claimed that faith is the key to salvation. James asked "can a man's faith save him?" And made clear that the answer is no. Paul claimed Abraham was justified by faith. James said by works in direct opposition. Educate yourself. And take off the blinders.
countceprano 3 years ago
JG: Begin your education with "Just James" by John Painter. An extremely detailed account of the first Jewish/Christians who were totally Jewish and only differed from their fellow Jews in that they thought Jesus was the promised Davidic Messiah. Just like other Jews throughout history have thought other men the Messiah. Again, the Messiah is ALWAYS a man in Judaism, never god incarnate. This is antithetical to Judaism and reveals a total lack of knowledge of theology on your part.
countceprano 3 years ago
What? You claim Paul was a Pharisee? Paul couldn't even read Hebrew as proven by his continual use of the Septuagint. And it goes without saying that a Pharisee would never call the Law a "curse" or seek to abrogate it. An education would serve you well.
countceprano 3 years ago
JG: The first followers of Jesus were led by James, his brother. They lived and worshipped in the temple in Jerusalem for over 30 years until James' was killed in the early 60's. They kept all festivals including Yom Kippur where each man makes atonement for his own sins. They in no way saw Jesus as divine. The messiah is NOT a divinity in Judaism and it is after all, their concept. Do you think Muslims would let men worship Mohammed as god in their midst? This is not difficult.
countceprano 3 years ago
"Your response has nothing to do with my question about the stoning of Stephen( who was a Jew) in Acts 7:54-8:1 by his own people. "
With Pauls OK, right?
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"Stop being ignorant, JG. The references to Jesus were forgeries done by a Christian translator, most likely Eusabius. Josephus was not the forger and I am not contradicting my self. What I am finding is that you are using more and more spinnery and ignoring most of anything I say in a desperate attempt to hold on to your illusions. You have absolutely no interest in learning what actually happened in history but rather, to molding history to something that upholds your delusions.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
2) If you want to learn - FINE. If you want to diddle around, do it by yourself.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
3) Come to think of it - one poster had it summed up quite nicely and it fits you to a "T": Debating with a fundamentalist is like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks over the pieces, poops on the board and then flies away, sqwacking victory."
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"When Paul converted to Christianity, he automatically stopped being a pharisee."
He would still use the Torah IF he was a pharisee because that would be what he was trained in, BUT HE DIDN'T
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"Again that is you assumption, there is no evidence for what you are saying here. "
Can you just read outside of the bible for a change - like Josephus who describes the event.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
oh yeah, can you please provide the name of that "writing" that says that Paul was a Greek convert"
"Epiphaneus in his book Heresies testified that Paul had no Pharisee background but that he was the son of Gentile parents who converted to Judaism in Tarsus and that the the Ebionites were the true successors of Jesus ."
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"Paul ...., because they were going against what traditional Judaism taught. "
Someone is handing you a load of BS, JG. It wasn't the nicey nicey situation that you think it was. Paul could have cared less about Judaism in Israel. He was sent by Rome to quell Jewish uprisings.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"Now this is just pure fiction, since the very beginning Christians have seen Jesus as divine."
Christians following Paul's teachings have but the Jewish Christians did not. Pauls status as a Pharisee is in doubt, JG. There is even a writing that claims Paul was a Greek convert and, indeed, his thinking is Greek and his teachings came from the Septuagint rather than Torah which would be the book of choice for a Pharisee.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
" then why were they being persecuted? Why was Stephen stoned to death(Acts 7:54-8:1) by the Jewish religious authorities"
Because Jesus hadn't proved himself to be a messiah to the rest of the Jews and the gentile christians differed in dogma from the Jewish Christians who were caught in the middle and eventually destroyed by Romans in 70 AD. Remember that Paul's dogma had already caught on in Rome before 70AD.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"it is a new concept presented by the Gospels. It has no parallels with Jewish or Greco-Roman traditions. "
Exactly - BUT it is identical with pagan belief in virgin birth, death and resurrection and man gods. That is the only place that it could have come from, JG. Remember what I said about a search for "dying suffering dieties" - did you check?
LoraSinger 3 years ago
JG _ In fact that is the very same reason Paul while being a pharisee wanted to destroy the early church, because they were going against what traditional Judaism taught. "
No, the early Jewish Christian Church was entirely Jewish except that they veiwed Jesus as the fully human Messiah.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"Again, I tell you there is no evidence that Pagans were looking for suffering and dying deities"
What? Well, you can assert that all you want, but you're simply uneducated if you think so.
You should also avail yourself to the large volume of scholarship available on James and the first Jewish/Christian community. They lived and worshipped as Jews and they rejected Paul and his interpretation of Jesus because Paul sought to abrogate the Torah in direct opposition to Jesus' teaching.
countceprano 3 years ago
"Again, I tell you there is no evidence that Pagans were looking for suffering and dying deities."
So if it didn't come from the Jews and you say not from paganism - Where do you suppose the idea came from?
LoraSinger 3 years ago
2) Just out of curiosity, I did a search under the description you gave me "suffering dying dieties". Seems they are even more common than I thought and there is even a list of virgin births along with some pretty good references - You might be interested.
en(dot)wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Life-death-rebirth_deity
If you don't like this one, there are over 490,000 other sites.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"What I meant was that Judaism did not had a single uniform theological opinion. "
I'm OK with that.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"yet no one has ever claimed that the miraculous and super natural elements of Jesus' life can be shared by other people."
Pagan, JG, pagan all the way.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"monolithic "
I think monotheistic is the word you want. They opposed the Pharisees' use of Oral Law and held only to the Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament). They also differed with the Pharisees on many theological tenets: for example, they did not believe in resurrection and the immortality of the soul. They are thought to have been the party of the Zadokite priestly elite, but still Jews.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"The Talmud. I know it is written so late, but still it represents the opinions rabbis had about Christianity and Jesus. "
The Talmud speaks of a Yeshua of about 150 BC , the bastard son of Miraim, who was hung on a tree for sorcery with no resurrection story.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
JG - I have no doubt that Jesus or someone like him lived, however, the elements of virgin birth, vicarious atonement, human sacrifice and resurrection just don't exist in Jewish thinking.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"the canonical Gospels are the best sources for the historical Jesus"
And of course, they are the only source since not one historian contemporary to his time did.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"For example the Quran mentions Jesus, but of coarse no one will ever say that the Quran is a christian book, it is the same thing with the Gnostic and Docetist gospels. "
But it upholds some elements of the Jesus story, doesn't it? Not quite the same as the bible though.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"Again I repeat, there is not a single manuscript of Matthew in Hebrew or Aramaic in existence today."
.tetragrammaton(dot)org/tetra5(dot)htm
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"The New Testament was not edited, or influenced by foreign factors. There was no "Different Christianities", but only ONE, the Christianity taught by Jesus, and consistently preached by his Apostles, and Paul. "
And christianity covers its eyes and ears and bawls "NOT" You can discount history if you want, but your belief exists true only in your own mind, jg.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"and the radical change he had when Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus. "
Yes, three different contradicting versions too.
"Paul did not corrupted Christianity. "
Would you like examples of Paul's contradictions to Jesus teachings - very long. I can mail some of them to your mailbox.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"First of all there is not a single manuscript of Matthew in Hebrew "
Yes there is:
Matthew collected the oracles (ta logia) in the Hebrew language, and each interpreted them as best he could." - Papias (Eusebius, H.E. 3.39.16)
As having learnt by tradition concerning the four Gospels, which alone are unquestionable in the Church of God under heaven, that first was written according to Matthew,
LoraSinger 3 years ago
2) who was once a tax collector but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, who published it for those who from Judaism came to believe, composed as it was in the Hebrew language." - Origen (Eusebius, H.E. 6.25.4)
I understand it is in a museum in Israel, jG.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples" Why didn't the Pauline Christians erased these texts?-yet they are found in our "Pauline Bible"-"
I have no idea but it does illustrate that they weren't the buddies that you seem to think they are.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"Yes there is ONE Christianity, the Christianity found in the New Testament"
And WHO do you think is responsible for the new testament except Pauline Christians. AND WHO do you think Ignatius, Clement and the others were except Pauline Christians. Jewish christians died out or were dispersed in 70 AD along with the Jerusalem Church.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
2) What went into the bible was also doctored. Hebrew Matthew is different in many areas from our Matthew. Mark has been added to. In fact, although I have not seen this for myself, I am told that the nativity in Matthew is not present in the Hebrew Matthew. Your bible is doctored big time, JG.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"what is written in Acts 7:54-8:1."
Acts 8:1 absolutely correlates with history. Paul was sent from the Herodian court to "divide the Jews" according to Josephus. In Acts, he is in agreement with the murder of Stephen. And you will note that there was a persecution of the Jerusalem Church which was the church of the Jewish Christians NOT gentile Christians. I can see now why the Roman Catholic church didn't allow it's people to own a bible for the longest time.
LoraSinger 3 years ago
"These sects(Marcionites, Ebionites, Nazarenes) popped up out of no where and had no existence in first century Palestine"
Historians say they did, JG. You're getting YOUR information from an apologetic think tank, aren't you?
LoraSinger 3 years ago