Lastly, I don't have time to rebuddle this, so if you are truly interested in learning (and not arguing) then I recomment you do some real research. I don't mean this as a slam, I mean this as an encouragment. Some starting places would be: Galeleo, Issac Newton, World Wide Flood, the study of Christian ethics... just for starters. Good luck, and enjoy.
I would venture to say that you are asking the wrong question. The question should not be whether you can prove or disprove that there is a heaven and hell. The question that is more reasonable to answer is this: how is the validity of the author? Not C.S. Lewis, but the author(s) of the Bible. Interesting how the Bible has been a fact base source for many archeologist, scientists, and anthropologists. It's worth the research.
ah, 1:20 - but wait, I don't choose not to believe. Understand? It's not a choice. I don't choose what to believe and what not to believe; I believe what makes sense. For all it's efforts, Christianity doesn't make sense to me, it's not my fault or my choice.
It depends on what you are looking for as regards rebuttal. For me the Bible will do it. The Bible says Hell is a place of punishment and that God sends those there who flatly refuse His amnesty out of the place.
when Lewis contradicts the Bible, as he does often, I go with the Bible, or at least hold that I should.
Do a work search in the Bible on hell and see what it says. God is more punitive than Lewis wanted to believe, but more forgiving as well to those who sought it
Sure. A simple answer. While living here on earth, wouldn't all non-believers be bereft of the presence of god? So would you then say that this life is hell for them, but NOT for the believers? After all, the christian god can not abide non-believers in his presence right? In-so-far as 'choice' is concerned, the verdict is and has been out for a very long time. Free will is a deeply egotistical concept and there is no scientific evidence that we possess 'free will' to make choices.
@StephenWebb1980 Christians believe that God is present everywhere (being a spirit, not matter), so that no one is bereft of his presence in life. (Hell must be a spiritual state, not a location.) Also, no Christian doctrine asserts that God cannot abide non-believers in his presence - there are many Biblical accounts of God in the presence of non-believers, and even in the presence of Satan himself (in Job), and Jesus was known for hanging out with the WORST of people his whole life. :)
@jaimiewith2eyes not bad. However even absense in matter would be a limitation. Spirit and matter are not the same, and as such and omnipresent god would also be inextricably intertwined with the matter of creation. This universe is part of god, and this universe is physical matter, therefore I conlude that god must necessarily be physical also.
@StephenWebb1980 So you're saying, how can God be everywhere, when our concept of any 'where' involves matter - material space and location - and God is supposed to be a spirit? That's an interesting thought. Also, what leads you to believe that the universe is part of God?
@jaimiewith2eyes When I think of the universe's dependence on God, I envision the a fetus within its mother. I know, sounds like a strange analogy but the universe is dependent upon God much the same way. If there is no constant connection, then the universe would fall apart. I view God as the more than universe of course, I am a panentheist [not to be confused with pantheist]. Panentheism's basic tenant is that God in All, and All in God.
The absence of God is definitely one condition of Hell; although CS Lewis does not actually argue that Hell is ONLY the absence of God. In fact the loving God DOES NOT send people to eternal torment. Because mankind sins by nature, his rightful reward is lasting condemnation. God in his love provides a Savior who in response to simple faith furnishes redemption. When people reject the Savior's offer, they choose of their own volition to remain in eternal condemnation, in lasting torment .
If you are like most people, you will have to read the first three chapters several times.
Most atheists have never deeply thought through the implications of their faith in eternal matter. For any serious atheist, "Miricles" poses a serious problem.
God does send us to hell, because he's the one who made the rules. He could say "I'm not going to let any of my children go to hell," but no, he has a deal with Satan.
Nope...C.S. Lewis got it right. Hell is the absence of God. Now I am not saying that is all it is but by all means this is a part of it. The Bible is clear that sin seperates man from God. That is why Romans 6:23 states: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Well, hell isn't defined anywhere in the Bible as "a place where God is absent". It's defined as a place GOD CREATED for the Satan and his fallen angels where the fire never goes out.
So basically, if you refuse to believe in Jesus and declare him Lord, even if you've lived a sinless life because you're automatically born into sin, he will agonize you for eternity with that fire.
A loving God wouldn't torture. You can still create a place for non-believers and not burn them.
ok. God made hell as a punishment for lucifers actions. now after that happneed, we have the choice to follow the actions of satan or the will of God. so its only reasonable that if we follow the teachings of satan such as unbelief, fornication, etc, we will go to the same place he is. if we follow God then we go to the placw where he is.
he doesnt send us there, we choose to go their by choosing satan
The absence of God? Which one? Zeus? Odin? Mithras? Ahura Mazda? Vishnu? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Christians already live gleefully with the absence of many gods, so technically, they're in dozens of different Hells.
And it's all just apologetics based on faith, anyway. We don't have a shred of reliable evidence about Hell or what it's like, so trying to define Hell only counts for those who already have faith in its existence. Logic doesn't apply!
your absolutely right, logic doesn't apply...but when it comes to christians they don't follow Zeus, odin, mithras, or any of those Gods because to a christian they don't exist. If they did believe in those Gods your statement of "they're in dozens of different hells" would be correct. But being mature about C.S.Lewises statement I know that absense of the christianity God is what Lewis is implying. Also we DO IN FACT have evidence about what Hell is like...I read about it in the bible.
@IronGums Logic doesn't apply?! Even speaking hypothetically without evidence, we must not make self-contradicting statements or other logical fallacies, yes? Logic must always be applied. It's fundamental to thought about anything.
I'm no longer a Christian, but I was for 35 years. Biblically speaking Hell is not the thing to fear, rather the lake of fire. This is where hell and death are thrown in the end as well as the Devil, the beast and unbelievers. Revelation 20:14. It's really not healthy to believe this stuff. Men just made it up, just like all mythology. 'Revelation' could be between God and man only. Once a man tells others its only hearsay. You are FREE to disbelieve. (Thomas Paine, A Founding Father of the US.)
While I am no fan of CS Lewis, I do agree with him that Hell is the absense of God. Although, the absense of God is not all it is, the Bible is very clear to what Hell is, it is a particular place. Some verses on Hell are: Mark 1:21-28, 5:1-20, 9:14-29; Luke 4:31-37, 8:26-39, 9:37-42; Matthew 8:28-34, 17:14-21
This concept of hell only being an absents of God is an interesting one that I have never come across before. Not being knowledgable about other statments that the bible makes on the condition of hell, I may be talking out my ass, but this idea makes hell sound like a much less horrable place; more like a specific area for non-believers, perhapse with less/none of the benifits given to those in heaven, but not necessarily drowing in horror and torture.
Is it possible that the fire and brimstone view of heaven is merly a view contrived by man out of an inability to comprehend anything but the good/bad status quo of things? It would certainly help clear up my major problem with Christianity. In the end, can an individual who lives their life well and moraly, but does not believe in God really be sent to the same fate as a cerial rapest, and have it be considered right and just by God? Some say so; I say horse shit.
I think what C.S Lewis says about hell is both scriptural and works together with the idea that God is a loving God. If a person does not choose God, Why would God force him to go to heaven?The person would not be happy to be in God's presence for eternity. As a Christian i believe that hell is the absents of God and therefor heaven is the opposite. And although people go to hell as a result of not choosing God, how is that not loving? Is it unloving for a mother to discipline her children.
It's not like as soon as God made heaven hell appeared as to be the opposite of God
That's insulting to God you are taking away his infinite power doing so, that would also mean putting Satan at the same level of God by your logic. If God is infinite he can do what he wants, if he wants he can send sinners to heaven and loyal Christians to hell, he's infinite so he can't be wrong, and us as finite creatures cannot question him.
mm i not really sure if you have ever the Bible but it clearly illustrates that hell is a separation from God.i made no reference to the creation of hell. and in regards to your rubbish about sending "sinners" to heaven. looking at the Bible we can also conclude that God is a God of promises and when he says he will reward those who walk with Him we should have to reason to think other wise. and i fully agree that we cannot say if God is right or wrong but that have to relevence to anything
He won't lie though...firstly it would be out of character for God to lie and secondly God established that he is the opposite of sin.Sin is an abomination to God. As well, our standards are not God. for example God has every right to kill because he is the only one righteous "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" As well, I know God will not lie because in the Bible it says that Satan is the Father of all lies and deceit not the other way around
Are you Christian? and if you are what denomination are you associated with...cuz i feel like im argue with a someone with beliefs different then protesant and catholic church..
A loving god still would not let people wallow in misery for eternity. When you love someone and they're depressed, you go check on them and invite them out of the house, try to cheer them up, encourage them to see a therapist if necessary, etc. That's what love does.
Ignoring someone is not love. A loving god simply would not let anyone be separated from joy.
It isn't a matter of choice. A friend who's depressed might tell you, "don't come visit," but if you know they are really hurting, you disobey.
And the idea that anyone would choose to be separated from love and joy is a stupid notion. Lewis was just fantasizing to keep orthodoxy while refusing to admit that love and hell cannot both exist.
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. (Revelations 3:20)
It is a matter of choice, and God respects it. Open the door to Him, and you'll discover real Love and real Joy.
Yes, and immediately after that, Jesus says "...It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." (John 6:45)
Once again, it is our choice to listen or not, but God's gift of salvation is for all.
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40)
...but in these last days he (God) has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. (Heb 1:2-3)
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. ... So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say." (John 12:49-50)
Bassandit. I don't think you're wrong to feel that, nor do I know what is best for you. I'm simply, honestly sharing what I believe is true, because I've experienced it. I wouldn't speak of what I don't know.
As for your question, God has appeared physically, unambiguously, as a man called Jesus.
Now I can see you scoffing at my 'predictable' reply.
But, honestly, wouldn't God, being God, know better than you and me?
I cannot prove God to you. But if you're willing, He does it Himself.
That isn't true, pepetruelo. I am willing. He hasn't done anything. I know this probably isn't comfortable for you to hear, because you probably have the following beliefs:
1) people who don't believe in God are going to Hell, and
2) God is good and wants everyone to go to Heaven.
To reconcile those beliefs, you pretty much HAVE TO believe that God will make himself known to anyone who is willing.
"I'm simply, honestly sharing what I believe is true"
Okay, but please don't pretend like it's obvious to other people, as you did when you parroted Bible verses.
"As for your question, God has appeared physically, unambiguously, as a man called Jesus."
The problem is not that this reply is predictable. The problem is that it is not unambiguous, not uncontroversial. There is very little evidence that Jesus lived at all. There is zero evidence that he is God.
And yet I am supposed to believe it, because one book says so? You are insulting my intelligence.
If Jesus is God, where is Jesus today? There are people suffering NOW, today, and if a god exists, that god could appear to those people who need comfort. But he doesn't care to.
If God wants me to believe in him, he's welcome to visit me anytime. If he wants to comfort my suffering, I would be grateful for that. He does nothing. He sends Bible-thumpers to regulate my behavior. That is cold.
Ok, since you are willing, I propose we continue this conversation privately. You can even set the rules for our chat and put an end to it whenever you decide, and you'll never hear from me again. Just reply with an ok, and I'll be happy to get back to you, or you can directly send me a message. What do you say?
Hell is a state of mind that we all create for ourselves because of our lack of responsibility for ourselves. The Bible's interpretation is simply symbolic of inner conflict.
CS Lewis's description of consciousness in his book 'Surprised by Joy' is the most profound point on this very complex subject that I've ever read. He had the rare ability to explain the opaque which most philosophers and philologists lack.
I don't think a rebuttal is required. C.S. Lewis is purely speculating about Hell. What evidence or reasons does he have for arguing that Hell is simply the absence of God. The Bible talks a lot about fire and brimstone, maybe it talks about Lewis's conception of hell as well.
Lewis is point is this. Think how hard it would be to explain the workings of a Pentium computer to a Roman nobleman. It can send messages around the world, holds all of the writings of every Roman historian on a chip the size of a pinhead. How? With electricty he doesn't understand and the mouse uses infrared or voice recognition software and radiowaves and microwaves, etc. You almost just have to say "Trust me, it is something very useful and powerful and it works."
That is Lewis's interpretation of the Bible description of hell. Missing the chance to be with God for eternity will be so awful, that is the way to best describe the disappointment. The chance to know every secret (JFK assassination, maybe) and to experience every pleasure (sex with Cindy Crawford, maybe) and see colors and beauties that dwarf anything on Earth and nusic better than anything you have ever heard and other wonderful things we don't even know about.
Perdition is the "Word" For it. If by knowning God, you understand there is a spiritual battle that is happening as we speak. To continue these Question's about this matter only show's ignorance. The fact is that your in a sence of that very thing being drown into any such ideaology.
Good question, I think I'd subscribe to the view jjensenii proposed. C.S. is simply taking whole Bible as one big metaphor and tweaking it to suit his image of God. That is basically what all non-fundamentalist Christians do to some extent.
Thanks for the subscription - that's really surprising to hear - but I'm not sure if I'm going to be making videos regularly or not. I'm a fan of CS Lewis, but a lot of the time he didn't know what he was talking about. He was en eminent philologist, outsanding novelist, and an interesting reinterpreter of myths into allegories. But contrary to popular belief he was not a scholar in any of the fields that would qualify one as an expert of theology or any Biblical study.
Lewis' idea that hell is the absence of God is flawed in two ways. From a Christian perspective, it is simply unscriptural. It comes from Lewis' head, not the Bible.
From a non-Christian perspective, it's flawed because it assumes that we would actually prefer living with the Christian God than not living with him, whereas there are many non-Christians who find Yahweh such an unpleasant figure that they might well prefer not living with him.
Thanks for some response. You have some good points. But could you be more specific about this idea of hell NOT being scriptural? I think you're right, but let's try to be more clear about what the Bible says hell is.
Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43-48 ... into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
@jjensenii Lewis' argument doesn't assume that everyone would prefer living with the Christian God. In fact, it's based on the opposite assumption, that everyone who spends eternity without God has chosen to do so freely. Exactly as you said, many people would prefer to live without God, and God allows them to do so. 'The doors to hell are barred from the inside', as Lewis puts it. It's 'hell', though, because it turns out that human souls were made for life with God.
certainly it's not a question, it does shed light with regards to amazingatheist's debats.also show the truth behide the atheist mentality and other new world order debates as to say there is a hidden agenda
Lewis was without a doubt one of greatest Christian thinkers of all time. Unfortunately, he managed to become so only by bastardizing what the Bible actually says. His views weren't so far from what he himself called "Chrstianity-and-water", the kind of faith you'd teach to a child.
No, I'm just a guy with a question. Amazing Atheist asked for questions, and I had one to ask. If you asked a question in your video, I didn't catch it. It just looked like a bunch of hard to read philosophical rambling. I don't want to start a battle with you; I just really wanted to know what your question was.
Ok... I'm not Amazing.. but I think I might be able to handle this question... and my response is basically to just ask another question.
Are you asking what an atheist thinks of C.S. Lewis' thought of Hell being the absence of god? If so, then the question is premature. Why? Because until a theist can establish what the word 'god' means the word 'hell' has no meaning. This actually applies to ALL theological thought. Pickup 'Atheism: a case against god' for further info.
Thanks for the link. I saw JezuzFreek's video but didn't see this rebuttal. Approaching the idea by questioning free will isn't an angle by which I had approached this particular problem.
Lastly, I don't have time to rebuddle this, so if you are truly interested in learning (and not arguing) then I recomment you do some real research. I don't mean this as a slam, I mean this as an encouragment. Some starting places would be: Galeleo, Issac Newton, World Wide Flood, the study of Christian ethics... just for starters. Good luck, and enjoy.
sethaguilar 2 weeks ago
I would venture to say that you are asking the wrong question. The question should not be whether you can prove or disprove that there is a heaven and hell. The question that is more reasonable to answer is this: how is the validity of the author? Not C.S. Lewis, but the author(s) of the Bible. Interesting how the Bible has been a fact base source for many archeologist, scientists, and anthropologists. It's worth the research.
sethaguilar 2 weeks ago
ah, 1:20 - but wait, I don't choose not to believe. Understand? It's not a choice. I don't choose what to believe and what not to believe; I believe what makes sense. For all it's efforts, Christianity doesn't make sense to me, it's not my fault or my choice.
Bkkhngr81 1 year ago
It depends on what you are looking for as regards rebuttal. For me the Bible will do it. The Bible says Hell is a place of punishment and that God sends those there who flatly refuse His amnesty out of the place.
when Lewis contradicts the Bible, as he does often, I go with the Bible, or at least hold that I should.
Do a work search in the Bible on hell and see what it says. God is more punitive than Lewis wanted to believe, but more forgiving as well to those who sought it
Strefanash 1 year ago
Sure. A simple answer. While living here on earth, wouldn't all non-believers be bereft of the presence of god? So would you then say that this life is hell for them, but NOT for the believers? After all, the christian god can not abide non-believers in his presence right? In-so-far as 'choice' is concerned, the verdict is and has been out for a very long time. Free will is a deeply egotistical concept and there is no scientific evidence that we possess 'free will' to make choices.
StephenWebb1980 1 year ago
@StephenWebb1980 Christians believe that God is present everywhere (being a spirit, not matter), so that no one is bereft of his presence in life. (Hell must be a spiritual state, not a location.) Also, no Christian doctrine asserts that God cannot abide non-believers in his presence - there are many Biblical accounts of God in the presence of non-believers, and even in the presence of Satan himself (in Job), and Jesus was known for hanging out with the WORST of people his whole life. :)
jaimiewith2eyes 1 year ago
@jaimiewith2eyes not bad. However even absense in matter would be a limitation. Spirit and matter are not the same, and as such and omnipresent god would also be inextricably intertwined with the matter of creation. This universe is part of god, and this universe is physical matter, therefore I conlude that god must necessarily be physical also.
StephenWebb1980 1 year ago
@StephenWebb1980 So you're saying, how can God be everywhere, when our concept of any 'where' involves matter - material space and location - and God is supposed to be a spirit? That's an interesting thought. Also, what leads you to believe that the universe is part of God?
jaimiewith2eyes 1 year ago
@jaimiewith2eyes When I think of the universe's dependence on God, I envision the a fetus within its mother. I know, sounds like a strange analogy but the universe is dependent upon God much the same way. If there is no constant connection, then the universe would fall apart. I view God as the more than universe of course, I am a panentheist [not to be confused with pantheist]. Panentheism's basic tenant is that God in All, and All in God.
StephenWebb1980 1 year ago
The absence of God is definitely one condition of Hell; although CS Lewis does not actually argue that Hell is ONLY the absence of God. In fact the loving God DOES NOT send people to eternal torment. Because mankind sins by nature, his rightful reward is lasting condemnation. God in his love provides a Savior who in response to simple faith furnishes redemption. When people reject the Savior's offer, they choose of their own volition to remain in eternal condemnation, in lasting torment .
gbwisconsin 2 years ago
Hi DharmaLogos,
You might enjoy reading Lewis' book "Miracles."
Particularly the first three chapters.
If you are like most people, you will have to read the first three chapters several times.
Most atheists have never deeply thought through the implications of their faith in eternal matter. For any serious atheist, "Miricles" poses a serious problem.
Gozerthegozarian1984 2 years ago
God does send us to hell, because he's the one who made the rules. He could say "I'm not going to let any of my children go to hell," but no, he has a deal with Satan.
fernfaerie 3 years ago
Nope...C.S. Lewis got it right. Hell is the absence of God. Now I am not saying that is all it is but by all means this is a part of it. The Bible is clear that sin seperates man from God. That is why Romans 6:23 states: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Bloodbought73 3 years ago
Well, hell isn't defined anywhere in the Bible as "a place where God is absent". It's defined as a place GOD CREATED for the Satan and his fallen angels where the fire never goes out.
So basically, if you refuse to believe in Jesus and declare him Lord, even if you've lived a sinless life because you're automatically born into sin, he will agonize you for eternity with that fire.
A loving God wouldn't torture. You can still create a place for non-believers and not burn them.
highwind8124 3 years ago
ok. God made hell as a punishment for lucifers actions. now after that happneed, we have the choice to follow the actions of satan or the will of God. so its only reasonable that if we follow the teachings of satan such as unbelief, fornication, etc, we will go to the same place he is. if we follow God then we go to the placw where he is.
he doesnt send us there, we choose to go their by choosing satan
nickdaballer09 3 years ago
woo woo, well put. WE send ourselves to hell, not God.
lovesthefather 3 years ago
The absence of God? Which one? Zeus? Odin? Mithras? Ahura Mazda? Vishnu? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Christians already live gleefully with the absence of many gods, so technically, they're in dozens of different Hells.
And it's all just apologetics based on faith, anyway. We don't have a shred of reliable evidence about Hell or what it's like, so trying to define Hell only counts for those who already have faith in its existence. Logic doesn't apply!
IronGums 3 years ago
your absolutely right, logic doesn't apply...but when it comes to christians they don't follow Zeus, odin, mithras, or any of those Gods because to a christian they don't exist. If they did believe in those Gods your statement of "they're in dozens of different hells" would be correct. But being mature about C.S.Lewises statement I know that absense of the christianity God is what Lewis is implying. Also we DO IN FACT have evidence about what Hell is like...I read about it in the bible.
crigjig 3 years ago
Also we DO IN FACT have evidence about what Bigfoot is like...I read about it in the Weekly World News.
bassandit 3 years ago
@IronGums Logic doesn't apply?! Even speaking hypothetically without evidence, we must not make self-contradicting statements or other logical fallacies, yes? Logic must always be applied. It's fundamental to thought about anything.
jaimiewith2eyes 1 year ago
I'm no longer a Christian, but I was for 35 years. Biblically speaking Hell is not the thing to fear, rather the lake of fire. This is where hell and death are thrown in the end as well as the Devil, the beast and unbelievers. Revelation 20:14. It's really not healthy to believe this stuff. Men just made it up, just like all mythology. 'Revelation' could be between God and man only. Once a man tells others its only hearsay. You are FREE to disbelieve. (Thomas Paine, A Founding Father of the US.)
pos777 4 years ago
I'd say if Hell is the absence of God, then we don't have to look very far to see what that would be like.
pos777 4 years ago
The amazing atheist rocks
setustraight 4 years ago
C.S. Lewis was just a man with an opinion. I'd rather believe the Bible cover to cover and be right in the end than not believe and be wrong.
katlovesChrist 4 years ago
While I am no fan of CS Lewis, I do agree with him that Hell is the absense of God. Although, the absense of God is not all it is, the Bible is very clear to what Hell is, it is a particular place. Some verses on Hell are: Mark 1:21-28, 5:1-20, 9:14-29; Luke 4:31-37, 8:26-39, 9:37-42; Matthew 8:28-34, 17:14-21
TheSummerPenguin 4 years ago
how many level 70 WoW characters do you have?
AvikOnToast 4 years ago
hahahahahahahaha
CarltonProductions 4 years ago
This concept of hell only being an absents of God is an interesting one that I have never come across before. Not being knowledgable about other statments that the bible makes on the condition of hell, I may be talking out my ass, but this idea makes hell sound like a much less horrable place; more like a specific area for non-believers, perhapse with less/none of the benifits given to those in heaven, but not necessarily drowing in horror and torture.
Axalon57 4 years ago
Is it possible that the fire and brimstone view of heaven is merly a view contrived by man out of an inability to comprehend anything but the good/bad status quo of things? It would certainly help clear up my major problem with Christianity. In the end, can an individual who lives their life well and moraly, but does not believe in God really be sent to the same fate as a cerial rapest, and have it be considered right and just by God? Some say so; I say horse shit.
Axalon57 4 years ago
"Men are not punished for their sins, but by them." -- Elbert Hubbard
jusmart 4 years ago
I think what C.S Lewis says about hell is both scriptural and works together with the idea that God is a loving God. If a person does not choose God, Why would God force him to go to heaven?The person would not be happy to be in God's presence for eternity. As a Christian i believe that hell is the absents of God and therefor heaven is the opposite. And although people go to hell as a result of not choosing God, how is that not loving? Is it unloving for a mother to discipline her children.
jwtevor 4 years ago
Hell isn't the absence of God, God created hell
It's not like as soon as God made heaven hell appeared as to be the opposite of God
That's insulting to God you are taking away his infinite power doing so, that would also mean putting Satan at the same level of God by your logic. If God is infinite he can do what he wants, if he wants he can send sinners to heaven and loyal Christians to hell, he's infinite so he can't be wrong, and us as finite creatures cannot question him.
Christ724 4 years ago
mm i not really sure if you have ever the Bible but it clearly illustrates that hell is a separation from God.i made no reference to the creation of hell. and in regards to your rubbish about sending "sinners" to heaven. looking at the Bible we can also conclude that God is a God of promises and when he says he will reward those who walk with Him we should have to reason to think other wise. and i fully agree that we cannot say if God is right or wrong but that have to relevence to anything
jwtevor 4 years ago
*we shouldnt have reason to think otherwise
jwtevor 4 years ago
That doesn't mean he can't lie
He's infinite he cannot be questioned, he cannot sin, so he can lie and not be a sin he can break promises and not be a sin
Christ724 4 years ago
He won't lie though...firstly it would be out of character for God to lie and secondly God established that he is the opposite of sin.Sin is an abomination to God. As well, our standards are not God. for example God has every right to kill because he is the only one righteous "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" As well, I know God will not lie because in the Bible it says that Satan is the Father of all lies and deceit not the other way around
jwtevor 4 years ago
The Satan (as he should be called) works for God
So? Sin is an abomination to God only if man commits it, remember he lies by proxy
he is infinite he can't sin no matter what
he can have gay orgies, it wouldn't be a sin for him because he's God
God can't sin
He is infinite
Unless you admit he is not infinite then he cannot do any of things I mentioned
Remember, he is infinite and his logic is superior to yours. YOU MUST ACCEPT THAT GOD DOES THINGS THAT YOU WOULD CONSIDER WRONG!
Christ724 4 years ago
Are you Christian? and if you are what denomination are you associated with...cuz i feel like im argue with a someone with beliefs different then protesant and catholic church..
jwtevor 4 years ago
A loving god still would not let people wallow in misery for eternity. When you love someone and they're depressed, you go check on them and invite them out of the house, try to cheer them up, encourage them to see a therapist if necessary, etc. That's what love does.
Ignoring someone is not love. A loving god simply would not let anyone be separated from joy.
bassandit 4 years ago
It isn't a matter of choice. A friend who's depressed might tell you, "don't come visit," but if you know they are really hurting, you disobey.
And the idea that anyone would choose to be separated from love and joy is a stupid notion. Lewis was just fantasizing to keep orthodoxy while refusing to admit that love and hell cannot both exist.
All this talk of souls is nonsense, though.
bassandit 4 years ago
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. (Revelations 3:20)
It is a matter of choice, and God respects it. Open the door to Him, and you'll discover real Love and real Joy.
pepetruelo 4 years ago
Doesn't the bible say that no one can come to Christ unless the Father call him?
pos777 4 years ago
Yes, and immediately after that, Jesus says "...It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." (John 6:45)
Once again, it is our choice to listen or not, but God's gift of salvation is for all.
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40)
pepetruelo 4 years ago
How do we 'listen to the Father'?
pos777 4 years ago
...but in these last days he (God) has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. (Heb 1:2-3)
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. ... So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say." (John 12:49-50)
pepetruelo 4 years ago
Yes, there you are, pepetruelo. I see you. Holding a book and reading from it.
I don't see any god knocking at my door.
Can you be honest for one minute and listen to me, or can you only tell me that I'm wrong to feel this, and you know what is best for me?
A loving god who cared about people would appear physically, unambiguously, to people who are suffering, and comfort them.
A loving god would do better than sending repetitive proselytizers who say "open the door."
bassandit 3 years ago
Bassandit. I don't think you're wrong to feel that, nor do I know what is best for you. I'm simply, honestly sharing what I believe is true, because I've experienced it. I wouldn't speak of what I don't know.
As for your question, God has appeared physically, unambiguously, as a man called Jesus.
Now I can see you scoffing at my 'predictable' reply.
But, honestly, wouldn't God, being God, know better than you and me?
I cannot prove God to you. But if you're willing, He does it Himself.
pepetruelo 3 years ago
That isn't true, pepetruelo. I am willing. He hasn't done anything. I know this probably isn't comfortable for you to hear, because you probably have the following beliefs:
1) people who don't believe in God are going to Hell, and
2) God is good and wants everyone to go to Heaven.
To reconcile those beliefs, you pretty much HAVE TO believe that God will make himself known to anyone who is willing.
But I promise you, he has not.
bassandit 3 years ago
"I'm simply, honestly sharing what I believe is true"
Okay, but please don't pretend like it's obvious to other people, as you did when you parroted Bible verses.
"As for your question, God has appeared physically, unambiguously, as a man called Jesus."
The problem is not that this reply is predictable. The problem is that it is not unambiguous, not uncontroversial. There is very little evidence that Jesus lived at all. There is zero evidence that he is God.
bassandit 3 years ago
And yet I am supposed to believe it, because one book says so? You are insulting my intelligence.
If Jesus is God, where is Jesus today? There are people suffering NOW, today, and if a god exists, that god could appear to those people who need comfort. But he doesn't care to.
If God wants me to believe in him, he's welcome to visit me anytime. If he wants to comfort my suffering, I would be grateful for that. He does nothing. He sends Bible-thumpers to regulate my behavior. That is cold.
bassandit 3 years ago
Ok, since you are willing, I propose we continue this conversation privately. You can even set the rules for our chat and put an end to it whenever you decide, and you'll never hear from me again. Just reply with an ok, and I'll be happy to get back to you, or you can directly send me a message. What do you say?
pepetruelo 3 years ago
Hell is a state of mind that we all create for ourselves because of our lack of responsibility for ourselves. The Bible's interpretation is simply symbolic of inner conflict.
kratzenbourg 4 years ago
CS Lewis's description of consciousness in his book 'Surprised by Joy' is the most profound point on this very complex subject that I've ever read. He had the rare ability to explain the opaque which most philosophers and philologists lack.
kratzenbourg 4 years ago
I don't think a rebuttal is required. C.S. Lewis is purely speculating about Hell. What evidence or reasons does he have for arguing that Hell is simply the absence of God. The Bible talks a lot about fire and brimstone, maybe it talks about Lewis's conception of hell as well.
tpcs3 4 years ago
your answer is in the free-will vs. all-powerful creater paradox.
sheepwshotguns 4 years ago
Lewis is point is this. Think how hard it would be to explain the workings of a Pentium computer to a Roman nobleman. It can send messages around the world, holds all of the writings of every Roman historian on a chip the size of a pinhead. How? With electricty he doesn't understand and the mouse uses infrared or voice recognition software and radiowaves and microwaves, etc. You almost just have to say "Trust me, it is something very useful and powerful and it works."
Matur1n 4 years ago
That is Lewis's interpretation of the Bible description of hell. Missing the chance to be with God for eternity will be so awful, that is the way to best describe the disappointment. The chance to know every secret (JFK assassination, maybe) and to experience every pleasure (sex with Cindy Crawford, maybe) and see colors and beauties that dwarf anything on Earth and nusic better than anything you have ever heard and other wonderful things we don't even know about.
Matur1n 4 years ago
hell for Cindy perhaps
lyndsaynicole22 4 years ago
Perdition is the "Word" For it. If by knowning God, you understand there is a spiritual battle that is happening as we speak. To continue these Question's about this matter only show's ignorance. The fact is that your in a sence of that very thing being drown into any such ideaology.
posty1322 4 years ago
Good question, I think I'd subscribe to the view jjensenii proposed. C.S. is simply taking whole Bible as one big metaphor and tweaking it to suit his image of God. That is basically what all non-fundamentalist Christians do to some extent.
yancur 4 years ago
Nice first video Dhama! I'm a big fan myself of C.S. so, I found your question very interesting. I can't wait for AA's response.
I'm going to suscribe to you (if you don't mind). Looking forward to more videos!
loreleisiren 4 years ago
Thanks for the subscription - that's really surprising to hear - but I'm not sure if I'm going to be making videos regularly or not. I'm a fan of CS Lewis, but a lot of the time he didn't know what he was talking about. He was en eminent philologist, outsanding novelist, and an interesting reinterpreter of myths into allegories. But contrary to popular belief he was not a scholar in any of the fields that would qualify one as an expert of theology or any Biblical study.
DharmaLogos 4 years ago
Lewis' idea that hell is the absence of God is flawed in two ways. From a Christian perspective, it is simply unscriptural. It comes from Lewis' head, not the Bible.
From a non-Christian perspective, it's flawed because it assumes that we would actually prefer living with the Christian God than not living with him, whereas there are many non-Christians who find Yahweh such an unpleasant figure that they might well prefer not living with him.
jjensenii 4 years ago
Thanks for some response. You have some good points. But could you be more specific about this idea of hell NOT being scriptural? I think you're right, but let's try to be more clear about what the Bible says hell is.
DharmaLogos 4 years ago
Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43-48 ... into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
godlesszarathustra 4 years ago
Some more...
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
godlesszarathustra 4 years ago
@jjensenii Lewis' argument doesn't assume that everyone would prefer living with the Christian God. In fact, it's based on the opposite assumption, that everyone who spends eternity without God has chosen to do so freely. Exactly as you said, many people would prefer to live without God, and God allows them to do so. 'The doors to hell are barred from the inside', as Lewis puts it. It's 'hell', though, because it turns out that human souls were made for life with God.
jaimiewith2eyes 1 year ago
certainly it's not a question, it does shed light with regards to amazingatheist's debats.also show the truth behide the atheist mentality and other new world order debates as to say there is a hidden agenda
posty1322 4 years ago
Lewis was without a doubt one of greatest Christian thinkers of all time. Unfortunately, he managed to become so only by bastardizing what the Bible actually says. His views weren't so far from what he himself called "Chrstianity-and-water", the kind of faith you'd teach to a child.
jjensenii 4 years ago
No, I'm just a guy with a question. Amazing Atheist asked for questions, and I had one to ask. If you asked a question in your video, I didn't catch it. It just looked like a bunch of hard to read philosophical rambling. I don't want to start a battle with you; I just really wanted to know what your question was.
DharmaLogos 4 years ago
Ok... I'm not Amazing.. but I think I might be able to handle this question... and my response is basically to just ask another question.
Are you asking what an atheist thinks of C.S. Lewis' thought of Hell being the absence of god? If so, then the question is premature. Why? Because until a theist can establish what the word 'god' means the word 'hell' has no meaning. This actually applies to ALL theological thought. Pickup 'Atheism: a case against god' for further info.
camltep2 4 years ago
are you pet that barks for the atheist
posty1322 4 years ago
Thanks for the link. I saw JezuzFreek's video but didn't see this rebuttal. Approaching the idea by questioning free will isn't an angle by which I had approached this particular problem.
DharmaLogos 4 years ago
youtube"DOT"com/watch?v=2H3Y99hyDPg
660075558 4 years ago