Thought I'd seen it all until I saw a dog-collared man talking about previous lives and reincarnation. The depths of my exasperation cannot be plumbed.
Elijah at transfiguration. Thank you!
"No just God would give you four years..." is indeed absurdly arrogant.
So you agree that there is no forgiveness of sins for the non-believers in hell?
My life experience tells me that the BIble is full of evil things (eg, killing people for working on the sabbath, threatening people with violence, such as eternal punishment in hell, etc)
And yes, evil people do sacrifice their own children to achieve their own evil ends.
But to an atheist it's a "free gift" that looks like a death sentence, which is why they do not take the "free gift". They reject the evil gift because they have no choice, because they have no choice but to follow their conscience.
Salvation from eternal death is a death sentence? If by that you mean that there are consequences to our actions in life, then you are probably right.
And I would disagree with the second premise. It takes ignoring one's conscience in favor of deductive logic. Most atheists are also scientific realists. Consistent corroboration does not necessarily indicate the lack of disprovability.
I've already explained to you that what you call "salvation" appears to the atheist to be the very essence of evil, and that's why they reject it, because they feel they must reject evil. In my experience atheists do not reject their conscience, rather, they follow their conscience.
I still don't understand how the redemption from evil can be considered evil. Would not the redemption from evil be considered good by anyone's standard?
Clearly, our experiences differ. Are you a scientific realist?
So maybe you're trying to say that the redemption itself isn't evil, but that the assumptions that must be accepted in order to consider the redemption at all may be considered evil.
Or maybe you mean to say that the punishment of someone other than the guilty party (even if by the victim's choice) is evil. Which means euthanasia is evil, as is suicide. Would you agree? And if so, on what basis is it evil?
I disagree with you that God reveals himself as merciful. To the contrary, God reveals himself as one of the most evil people to have ever existed. We can only judge people by how they behave, and God behaves like an extremely bad person whom we should make our enemy. If God exists, and sends me to hell for wanting to live an honest and noble life, then I will be forced to fight against him till the end of time.
Taking only specific passages to make your case, I can see how you would think that way. God is a God of justice as well as mercy. But justice is not evil. If a bad consequence comes about from a person behaving badly, then God is acting as a just judge. All humanity deserves hell having rebelled in Adam. That you and I can wake up in the morning feeling generally good points to God's grace, not evil.
I think you overestimate your ability to live a truly honest and noble life, even though in comparison to me, you may fair far better in the honest and noble department. Problem is, being made in God's image, the standard of moral perfection is far greater than you can possible imagine. That is why God came down in Jesus, so that a perfect righteousness could be lived and credited to those who become aware that they need one. Thanks for you thoughts, Kevin.
It would be extremely immoral of us to follow the instruction of a being whom we do not know to be good or evil. For this reason we must examine the behaviour of any such God and determine for ourselves whether that being is good or evil. In my judgement, the God of the Bible is most immoral.
You say "God is a God of justice as well as mercy". But the so-called "justice" we see in the Bible is in fact extreme immorality. For example, infinite punishment for a finite crime - and it's a "crime" about which we have no choice. I personally have no choice but to be an atheist because I was brought up to value reason and to seek the truth. And for that great sin God supposedly wants to punish me for eternity.
If you believe that God DESIRES to punish anyone, then you have entirely missed the point of Christianity. If God DESIRED that all should perish in hell, He would not have given the life of His Son in exchange for your life, my life, and everyone else who believes, on an individual basis.
"This is Love, not that we love God, but that He loves us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sin." - 1 John 4:10
Sounds like "mercy" if ever the definition were given, to me.
Jasonian, how is it merciful to punish people for eternity in hell just because they don't believe in God, because they've never seen any evidence for the existence of a God?
Is it right that the created does not recognize its creator?
To answer that question entirely, we'd get into some in-depth theology that probably doesn't fit in a YouTube comment. If you are serious, please send me a PM, and I'll do my best to explain what I believe is a simple disconnect of concepts.
Jasonian, you ask, "Is it right that the created does not recognize its creator?" Yes, it certainly is right, if they've never seen any evidence for the existence of that creator. It's that simple.
That assumes that ethics is determined by that which is created rather than the creator.
If you were the creator, the ethics would be determined by you, but as the created, your ethics may or may not line up with that of the creator.
The answers to your earlier question are there, but it's longer than could be explained in the length of a comment. So, again, if you want to know, you are welcome to PM me.
I do not intend to "win" an argument, but merely to help others understand.
No, ethics aren't created by the creator. If the creator is evil, that doesn't make what they do right. Might is not right. The God that is revealed through Christianity is an evil being, and just because he might have the power to torture people for doing what they believe to be good and right doesn't make him right or moral.
I'm trying to give you the chance to hear why God is not an evil being, but you have not yet accepted the offer, and instead keep arguing for God being evil.
Assuming God is doing the judging, do you think he would be kind to one who believes he is evil?
The logic is easy for this one. Do not kid yourself into thinking that a finite being can ever grasp absolute ethics of right and wrong.
The Bible predicted the days in which right and wrong are reversed according to human ethics.
If God is evil then we would expect that there would be no rhyme or reason for the punishments he doles out. And is precisely what we see in the Bible, eg, killing someone for working on the sabbath. As with all evil people, they would tend to be angry with those who contradict them. If we can't as individuals judge what is right or wrong, then you personally can't judge whether the Bible is right or wrong.
Christianity is not about "God" in the general sense of the word (as opposed to the personal sense), but about Jesus Christ.. hence why it is called CHRISTianity, and not something else.
If you want to know God as exposed through Christianity, you have to know Jesus. "For no man comes unto the Father but by me." John 14:6
Jasonian, at what stage in the eternal punishment in hell is there forgiveness for sins? Or are you saying that you don't believe in that particular dogma (of eternal punishment in hell)?
You personally judge that you need "faith", but if you personally can't judge what is right or wrong, then you are not qualified to make this judgement (that you need "faith").
Faith comes in where gnosis fails. If I cannot know, then what do I do? Deny it? By denying it am I not claiming episteme of its nonexistence? I could claim agnosticism, but I take the word of a man I trust (Jesus) by faith rather than by proof based on the quality of his character and his track record of actions, behavior, and teachings.
Jesus came, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.
The idea of hell is no different than that of Karma, except that it is permanent.
Forgiveness of sins is a gift to be taken (by faith), or left. I take this on his word, and on life-experience evidence suggesting that the Bible is a true account (including Biblical prophesy and how it relates to current events).
Your faulty logic is tainting this discussion quite badly. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23
Sin deserves to be punished, and the naturally occurring result is death (hell).
And if Hell were God's wish for humanity, He would not have sent Jesus to die in our place so that we could escape the punishment we are owed as a result of our sin.
And you say God is evil? Would an evil God sacrifice the life of his son in exchange for the salvation of humanity?
Sin was brought into the world, not by God, but by Satan. (an opposer, though hardly an opposite. God alone is sovereign.)
Hell was not intended for humans. This is Biblical. The Christian account of God.
The reason you are giving is quite absurd. So because you *think* that Jesus could escape death(it's not proven), you would let his death cause your salvation?
No, because he DID escape death (almost 2 millenia before I was born). He died for the sins of all who follow him. It has already happened.
If I do NOT accept this gift, then his death was in vain. If I do, then you accuse me of being the killer... which is chronologically and physically impossible.
You may dance around it, but nothing changes. It's a free gift. Take it or leave it, but it exists either way.
How do you know that he escaped death, or that he was real at all? Harry Potter novels say that there's a magical world which we can't see. Does that mean that it "exists"?
When did this turn into a debate of ontological epistemology? I am already convinced. I don't think you'll be able to unconvince me very easily, and not because of what many like to refer to as "blind faith", but because of things I've seen, research I've done, and whatever other life experience forms you may care to come up with.
I did. You asked me how I know. I told you what convinced me. Do you really want to read my entire life's story in a YouTube comment?
Insults are unnecessary and accomplish nothing. Please keep them out of this discussion if you wish for it to continue.
You can also convince yourself that the flying spaghetti monster is just as real, valid, plausible, or whatever word you care to use. This does not make it so.
So you'd gladly be convinced of something nobody could be convinced of, and live your life accordingly, ignoring the fact that it *could* be the something else.
As far as I know, there is no scientific basis for a human being rising up after death. You are considering Christ to be both a man and a God. That is blasphemy.
Do you realize that saying something like that assumes that what i say has a real effect on the reality in which we exist?
I am not God. I believe that there is only one God. My believing that there is only one God is not the determining factor that makes it so. God is. I am condemning no-one to hell. I lack the authority to do so.
You don't see how it is possible because you are of the world, and the world hates Jesus, and the world hates that which it does not understand. (run-on, yes)
"I am not God. I believe that there is only one God. My believing that there is only one God is not the determining factor that makes it so. God is. I am condemning no-one to hell. I lack the authority to do so."
- So you would not take any responsibility for what you say, even though you are an adult.
"You don't see how it is possible because you are of the world, and the world hates Jesus, and the world hates that which it does not understand. (run-on, yes)"
- You are speaking with a lot of authority here, which would be contrary to what you said earlier.
Yea, it's like - if people just want to make up whatever they want to believe in their head, at least do us all the favor of taking God's name off of it.
Thought I'd seen it all until I saw a dog-collared man talking about previous lives and reincarnation. The depths of my exasperation cannot be plumbed.
Elijah at transfiguration. Thank you!
"No just God would give you four years..." is indeed absurdly arrogant.
Aragond68 2 years ago
So you agree that there is no forgiveness of sins for the non-believers in hell?
My life experience tells me that the BIble is full of evil things (eg, killing people for working on the sabbath, threatening people with violence, such as eternal punishment in hell, etc)
And yes, evil people do sacrifice their own children to achieve their own evil ends.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
I think you would be hard-pressed to find anyone to agree that the salvation of all of humanity is an evil end.
Jasonian 2 years ago
I think you'll find that those who are suffering eternal torture in hell won't be so enthused about the idea.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
They had the same chance as you do now. It's a free gift. Take it or leave it.
Jasonian 2 years ago
But to an atheist it's a "free gift" that looks like a death sentence, which is why they do not take the "free gift". They reject the evil gift because they have no choice, because they have no choice but to follow their conscience.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
Salvation from eternal death is a death sentence? If by that you mean that there are consequences to our actions in life, then you are probably right.
And I would disagree with the second premise. It takes ignoring one's conscience in favor of deductive logic. Most atheists are also scientific realists. Consistent corroboration does not necessarily indicate the lack of disprovability.
Most Christians rely on faith instead.
Jasonian 2 years ago
I've already explained to you that what you call "salvation" appears to the atheist to be the very essence of evil, and that's why they reject it, because they feel they must reject evil. In my experience atheists do not reject their conscience, rather, they follow their conscience.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
I still don't understand how the redemption from evil can be considered evil. Would not the redemption from evil be considered good by anyone's standard?
Clearly, our experiences differ. Are you a scientific realist?
Jasonian 2 years ago
What *appears* to you to be redemption from evil appears to others to be evil itself. What's so difficult about that to understand?
KevinSolway 2 years ago
The part where the negation of evil is evil.
~E = E is a logical fallacy.
So maybe you're trying to say that the redemption itself isn't evil, but that the assumptions that must be accepted in order to consider the redemption at all may be considered evil.
Or maybe you mean to say that the punishment of someone other than the guilty party (even if by the victim's choice) is evil. Which means euthanasia is evil, as is suicide. Would you agree? And if so, on what basis is it evil?
Jasonian 2 years ago
You lack the capacity to understand what I'm saying, so there's no point in continuing.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
I disagree with you that God reveals himself as merciful. To the contrary, God reveals himself as one of the most evil people to have ever existed. We can only judge people by how they behave, and God behaves like an extremely bad person whom we should make our enemy. If God exists, and sends me to hell for wanting to live an honest and noble life, then I will be forced to fight against him till the end of time.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
Taking only specific passages to make your case, I can see how you would think that way. God is a God of justice as well as mercy. But justice is not evil. If a bad consequence comes about from a person behaving badly, then God is acting as a just judge. All humanity deserves hell having rebelled in Adam. That you and I can wake up in the morning feeling generally good points to God's grace, not evil.
bzel333 2 years ago
I think you overestimate your ability to live a truly honest and noble life, even though in comparison to me, you may fair far better in the honest and noble department. Problem is, being made in God's image, the standard of moral perfection is far greater than you can possible imagine. That is why God came down in Jesus, so that a perfect righteousness could be lived and credited to those who become aware that they need one. Thanks for you thoughts, Kevin.
bzel333 2 years ago
It would be extremely immoral of us to follow the instruction of a being whom we do not know to be good or evil. For this reason we must examine the behaviour of any such God and determine for ourselves whether that being is good or evil. In my judgement, the God of the Bible is most immoral.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
You say "God is a God of justice as well as mercy". But the so-called "justice" we see in the Bible is in fact extreme immorality. For example, infinite punishment for a finite crime - and it's a "crime" about which we have no choice. I personally have no choice but to be an atheist because I was brought up to value reason and to seek the truth. And for that great sin God supposedly wants to punish me for eternity.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
If you believe that God DESIRES to punish anyone, then you have entirely missed the point of Christianity. If God DESIRED that all should perish in hell, He would not have given the life of His Son in exchange for your life, my life, and everyone else who believes, on an individual basis.
"This is Love, not that we love God, but that He loves us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sin." - 1 John 4:10
Sounds like "mercy" if ever the definition were given, to me.
Jasonian 2 years ago
Jasonian, how is it merciful to punish people for eternity in hell just because they don't believe in God, because they've never seen any evidence for the existence of a God?
KevinSolway 2 years ago
Is it right that the created does not recognize its creator?
To answer that question entirely, we'd get into some in-depth theology that probably doesn't fit in a YouTube comment. If you are serious, please send me a PM, and I'll do my best to explain what I believe is a simple disconnect of concepts.
Jasonian 2 years ago
Jasonian, you ask, "Is it right that the created does not recognize its creator?" Yes, it certainly is right, if they've never seen any evidence for the existence of that creator. It's that simple.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
That assumes that ethics is determined by that which is created rather than the creator.
If you were the creator, the ethics would be determined by you, but as the created, your ethics may or may not line up with that of the creator.
The answers to your earlier question are there, but it's longer than could be explained in the length of a comment. So, again, if you want to know, you are welcome to PM me.
I do not intend to "win" an argument, but merely to help others understand.
Jasonian 2 years ago
No, ethics aren't created by the creator. If the creator is evil, that doesn't make what they do right. Might is not right. The God that is revealed through Christianity is an evil being, and just because he might have the power to torture people for doing what they believe to be good and right doesn't make him right or moral.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
I'm trying to give you the chance to hear why God is not an evil being, but you have not yet accepted the offer, and instead keep arguing for God being evil.
Assuming God is doing the judging, do you think he would be kind to one who believes he is evil?
The logic is easy for this one. Do not kid yourself into thinking that a finite being can ever grasp absolute ethics of right and wrong.
The Bible predicted the days in which right and wrong are reversed according to human ethics.
Jasonian 2 years ago
If God is evil then we would expect that there would be no rhyme or reason for the punishments he doles out. And is precisely what we see in the Bible, eg, killing someone for working on the sabbath. As with all evil people, they would tend to be angry with those who contradict them. If we can't as individuals judge what is right or wrong, then you personally can't judge whether the Bible is right or wrong.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
Are we including or excluding Christianity in our analysis of the Biblical/Christian account of God?
If we are including, then you are ignoring the Christian part of the God as exposed through Christianity. i.e. - the forgiveness of sins.
If I could personally "judge" without a doubt, there would be no need for faith, let alone its value as described by Jesus.
Jesus came to save the world, and in turn, the world hates him, killed him, and continues to insult him and his followers.
Jasonian 2 years ago
Christianity is not about "God" in the general sense of the word (as opposed to the personal sense), but about Jesus Christ.. hence why it is called CHRISTianity, and not something else.
If you want to know God as exposed through Christianity, you have to know Jesus. "For no man comes unto the Father but by me." John 14:6
Jasonian 2 years ago
Jasonian, at what stage in the eternal punishment in hell is there forgiveness for sins? Or are you saying that you don't believe in that particular dogma (of eternal punishment in hell)?
You personally judge that you need "faith", but if you personally can't judge what is right or wrong, then you are not qualified to make this judgement (that you need "faith").
KevinSolway 2 years ago
Faith comes in where gnosis fails. If I cannot know, then what do I do? Deny it? By denying it am I not claiming episteme of its nonexistence? I could claim agnosticism, but I take the word of a man I trust (Jesus) by faith rather than by proof based on the quality of his character and his track record of actions, behavior, and teachings.
Jesus came, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.
The idea of hell is no different than that of Karma, except that it is permanent.
Jasonian 2 years ago
Jasonian, you say that "Jesus came to save the world", but since you only take this on faith, this opinion of yours isn't worth anything.
If hell is a permanent punishment, then there is no forgiveness for sins. Simple logic.
KevinSolway 2 years ago
Forgiveness of sins is a gift to be taken (by faith), or left. I take this on his word, and on life-experience evidence suggesting that the Bible is a true account (including Biblical prophesy and how it relates to current events).
Your faulty logic is tainting this discussion quite badly. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23
Sin deserves to be punished, and the naturally occurring result is death (hell).
Jasonian 2 years ago
And if Hell were God's wish for humanity, He would not have sent Jesus to die in our place so that we could escape the punishment we are owed as a result of our sin.
And you say God is evil? Would an evil God sacrifice the life of his son in exchange for the salvation of humanity?
Sin was brought into the world, not by God, but by Satan. (an opposer, though hardly an opposite. God alone is sovereign.)
Hell was not intended for humans. This is Biblical. The Christian account of God.
Jasonian 2 years ago
You would rather a man die for your sins than die for them yourself?
jupiviv 2 years ago
Not in all cases, but in this case, yes.
Since I am human, and only human, I can only fall victim to death, and never overcome it.
Jesus fell victim to death because he chose to. He then conquered hell and death, and then rose from the dead.
If I had died, I would still be under death. One who will not remain under death is a better candidate for the job.
Think of it as taking a bullet in the arm to prevent a bullet to the head of someone else. The arm wound will heal.
Jasonian 2 years ago
The reason you are giving is quite absurd. So because you *think* that Jesus could escape death(it's not proven), you would let his death cause your salvation?
jupiviv 2 years ago
No, because he DID escape death (almost 2 millenia before I was born). He died for the sins of all who follow him. It has already happened.
If I do NOT accept this gift, then his death was in vain. If I do, then you accuse me of being the killer... which is chronologically and physically impossible.
You may dance around it, but nothing changes. It's a free gift. Take it or leave it, but it exists either way.
Jasonian 2 years ago
How do you know that he escaped death, or that he was real at all? Harry Potter novels say that there's a magical world which we can't see. Does that mean that it "exists"?
jupiviv 2 years ago
When did this turn into a debate of ontological epistemology? I am already convinced. I don't think you'll be able to unconvince me very easily, and not because of what many like to refer to as "blind faith", but because of things I've seen, research I've done, and whatever other life experience forms you may care to come up with.
Jasonian 2 years ago
Yet you could not counter a simple argument against your "faith".
jupiviv 2 years ago
I did. You asked me how I know. I told you what convinced me. Do you really want to read my entire life's story in a YouTube comment?
Insults are unnecessary and accomplish nothing. Please keep them out of this discussion if you wish for it to continue.
You can also convince yourself that the flying spaghetti monster is just as real, valid, plausible, or whatever word you care to use. This does not make it so.
Jasonian 2 years ago
So you'd gladly be convinced of something nobody could be convinced of, and live your life accordingly, ignoring the fact that it *could* be the something else.
As far as I know, there is no scientific basis for a human being rising up after death. You are considering Christ to be both a man and a God. That is blasphemy.
jupiviv 2 years ago
No, not "a" God, but "the" God. The "only" God.
This is a basic concept found in every flavor of Christianity; the opposite of which would be found to be blasphemy, actually.
I would like to know why you would consider this basic fundamental of Christianity to be blasphemous.
Jasonian 2 years ago
You are considering to Christ to be both man AND God. I don't see how this is possible.
Also, do you realise that by referring to "the" God, you are condemning billions of people to eternal damnation in hell?
jupiviv 2 years ago
Do you realize that saying something like that assumes that what i say has a real effect on the reality in which we exist?
I am not God. I believe that there is only one God. My believing that there is only one God is not the determining factor that makes it so. God is. I am condemning no-one to hell. I lack the authority to do so.
You don't see how it is possible because you are of the world, and the world hates Jesus, and the world hates that which it does not understand. (run-on, yes)
Jasonian 2 years ago
"Do you realize that saying something like that assumes that what i say has a real effect on the reality in which we exist?"
- Do you realise that, by this logic, what YOU say about God also does not have an effect on the reality in which we exist?
jupiviv 2 years ago
"I am not God. I believe that there is only one God. My believing that there is only one God is not the determining factor that makes it so. God is. I am condemning no-one to hell. I lack the authority to do so."
- So you would not take any responsibility for what you say, even though you are an adult.
jupiviv 2 years ago
"You don't see how it is possible because you are of the world, and the world hates Jesus, and the world hates that which it does not understand. (run-on, yes)"
- You are speaking with a lot of authority here, which would be contrary to what you said earlier.
jupiviv 2 years ago
This priest is actually a humanist - he only wants a "god" he's capable of understanding, negating the point of faith.
I wanna tell those kinda folks that the day they can make a tree is the day I'll listen to them.
If God in His sovereignty sends someone in the Spirit of Elijah, such an event is unique, not the norm.
fruitofspirit 2 years ago
Father Peter needs to fetch a fresh cup of cold water. God bless you 333!
ThickShades 2 years ago
Yea, it's like - if people just want to make up whatever they want to believe in their head, at least do us all the favor of taking God's name off of it.
fruitofspirit 2 years ago 2