Added: 3 years ago
From: whymikeisok
Views: 7,253
Sort by time | Sort by thread (beta)

Link to this comment:

Share to:

All Comments (887)

Sign In or Sign Up now to post a comment!
  • Capitalism sucks because they want you to work, but they refuse to pay you enough to live in the USA, so we have now 78 million people on Food stamps and untold millions on section 8 housing. They will give you tickets for food and housing via the tax payer, but the capitalist refuse to value labor enough to pay them so they can live on their own in the USA. That is why they love 3rd world dumb shits so they can sucker them into working for shit and all the government assistance they want.

  • The real question which this video does not address is why is Peter a waiter and is that ALL he will ever be?

  • Comment removed

  • @TheSovierhero. Definitions: Socialist: A person who has read Marx and Engels. All the others: The people that understood what Marx and Engels said.

  • Capitalism sucks,A Capitalist society is terrible,The rich gets richer while the poor gets poorer,lots of people are unemployed,In a capitalist country 1 % of the people take control of the media,the government and around 80% of the countries money while the other 99% have the rest 20 % of the money,so they have to work really hard to get all there needs and put food on the table and theres lots of poverty and homeless people that die from hunger and cold on the streets(like in india).

  • @TheSoviethero Your confusing capitalism, with corruption, socialism and facism.

  • @PeasantofMercia In Capitalism theres always corruption,i can give you examples,Capitalist countries like the USA,India,Sudan,Lebanon,mexico and etc.... all of those countries have poverty,high unemployment,and homeless,and inequality.Socialism has nothing to do with Facism.In a socialist country the government tries to give all people homes,work,equality,peace and safety.You really need to read Marx's books about Communism,you don't seem to know what Socialism really means.

  • @TheSoviethero There is corruption in every system that's why socialism doesn't work because there are very few people that don't become corrupt when they have power, its human nature. The US doesn't have capitalism because for that you need two things... 1. free money. the only money that can't be manipulated is gold/silver, we have fiat money that the governments can print to infinity. 2. free market: we havent had a free market for years if you watch them you can tell that there manipulated

  • @TheSoviethero and btw, bailing out banks is a socialist act, if the US was truely capitalist it would have allowed for them to fail like other bad buisnesses do.

  • @TheSoviethero 'In a socialist country the government tries to give all people homes,work,equality,peace and safety" And in return the take away individualism, personal responsibility, and freedom.

  • Comment removed

  • This video was obviously made by some who is suffering from extreme mental retardation. Has he ever heard of an advanced education and maby a job that pays more, Oh wait he never has because he is to lazy to do anything else. In a capitalist system the people need to work to be successful. Peter should have invested his money or started a business or his own product, or maby get a better job. But instead of being innovative he is a lazy dumb a*s hole who is to stupid to become successful.

  • @ninjaboynaru: And what happens to Peter when his business fails because of larger companies buying all the stocks?

  • @The501stLego I have never thought of it like this, (larger companies buying all the stocks and preventing smaller business from succeeding) and I don't see how this can be prevented. Socialism would just make it harder for business

  • I support most aspects of Socialism, but not welfare.

  • @The501stLego Could you please explain some of the aspects of Socialism.

  • i'm a"peter' from Indonesia...

    bcoz peter's life same with me....

    he works as a waiter and i work as housekeeping at gran melia jakarta...

  • @sallylongpants

    No tard socialism doesnt work because people are too greedy.

    Capitalism doesnt work because there is not enough money plain and simple.

    The point of capitalism is it treats money like it grows on the trees you put your money in one pile and after a while 3 more piles pops up.

    And btw you NEED MONEY for educations so poor people will stay poor no matter what.

  • Well look at denmark.... We do also have a bad economy and our society is driven by socialism... Highly educated people (like lawyers and doctors) doesn't wanna work here because they realize that they can get more money in a capitalistic society... so they move right after out state has paid for their education.... Socialistic societies will never make profit. Stick to capitalism :b

    But nice video (though i disagree)

  • @14Wannabe14

    Denmark has socialism really since when?

    And btw fuck your doctors then if your goal to become a doctor is because of money and not actully SAVING LIVES then fuck them.

    And yes lets stick to capitalism so 1% of the people can have 99% of all money.

  • @1DarkMasK1 But why should one spent half his life on a long education when you know that people with no education makes about the same? Money may be a material thing but the truth is that money IS driving most people. We will soon run out of doctors and lawyers! With capitalism everybody has the same oppotunities but its your own god damn responsebility to take them.

  • @14Wannabe14

    Oh so you think going into more schools is harder then work on the street in construction for 12 hours in the rainm snow and hot summers?

    And btw school isnt the same as education.

    The idea of capitalism is like you said money drives people however money doesnt grow on trees thats the problem with capitalism noone in capitalism has the same opportunities because there is not enough money for that.

  • @1DarkMasK1 Generally i would like to think that it is a good investment for the state to pay for our education. But it is money right out the window if the people who are educated on the states bill just moves to another country to work there. And people do that because they realize that they can get more money in another capitalistic country. Capitalism is the only think that really works!

  • @14Wannabe14

    How old are you I mean come on.

    You are spewing bunch of theories about capitalism here which sounds nice but capitalism in practice isnt and besides no country that claims to have capitalism really has capitalism the same as communism/socialism.

    I pointed out the error about your previous argument where you stated everyone has the same oppertuneties when thats false in theory yes in practise no there isnt enough money.

  • @14Wannabe14

    You are delusional kid just look at the news about angry protesters all around the world in "capitalistic" countries and ask them why they protest when capitalism is such a beautiful system a system in which 1% of people have 99% of money a system in which every can get rich yet there is not enough money in practice, a system in which money is treated like it grows on the trees and you can make from 1 pile of money 2 piles with no cover.

  • @14Wannabe14

    And also in general no one has the same opportunities because not everyone can become an airforce pilot or a surgeon because those 2 things require good physical status and not just education.

    The whole idea of capitalism is invalid thats why world is falling apart.

  • @1DarkMasK1 worldwide socialism wouldn't work think about it everyone will be so poor

  • @drunkglitch

    Where in socialism do you have anything about being poor?

    You are yet another brainwashed American who thinks that socialism was present in USSR and it talks about being poor or rich.

    Until you researched what socialim actully is you will find out that all people in socialism are equal in every aspect and that there is no poor or rich you will also found out that USSR, China etc... have a fascism with only FEW socialistic ideas.

  • @1DarkMasK1 1) I'm not American. think about it if socialism is about redistributing the wealth so everyone is equal then but there are too many people for socialism to work because the world average will be allot less than what you and I earn. But with capitalism anyone can get to the top it doesn't matter who you are

  • @drunkglitch

    Actully no the food and other products would be also cheaper there are some problems with socialism true but not so much as in capitalism where 1% OF people own 99% of entire wealth.

    Also like you pointed out in capitalism everyone can go to the top INCLUDING drug dealers, raketeers, contract killers etc...

  • @1DarkMasK1

    Capitalism is breeding ground for organized crime.

  • @1DarkMasK1 Citation needed.

  • @1DarkMasK1 eh? you mean socialism right?

  • @1DarkMasK1 legalise drugs sorts out that problem. And there could be people doing that in socialism I want to be in less control of me not more

  • @drunkglitch

    And how many capitalistic countries have legalized drugs so far?

    Why not?

  • @1DarkMasK1 Holland sort of but doesn't really count but then again there aren't many countries capitalist or socialist that have.

  • @drunkglitch

    USSR had no more different system then you do now the only difference was that Stalin and his generals had majority of wealth while in USA CEO's and bankers have majority of wealth.

  • Awesome! Yes, you should.

  • Peter needs to become an entrepreneur - put himself through a cheap community college, or just wait for people to shower him with wealth that greatly exceeds the tasks he is currently doing. Peter needs to aim a lot higher to succeed.

    You can become an entrepreneur with nothing - and generally you will be a lot smarter than most of your competition if you do managed to do this.

    Let's say Peter wanted to start a bigger business - well HELLO capitalism - he goes and attracts investors.

  • @realcoolguy425 the only problem with that is the fact that the environment is very toxic for that because it is the small business entrepreneur that bears the brunt of over taxation, over regulation, and endless red-tape, and that is the reason entrepreneurs are hiding in the closet now. it wasn't those people who were bailed out; it was the banksters, the big corporations, and the like, yet we still have five unemployed workers for every one job opening.

  • @NDNSupport Ι dont know about where you are but in Wales the ex state owned companies are highly regulated. To show how surreal the situation is in Wales now after "privitisation". The government sets the maximum these companies can charge for electricity, and because these companies then claim they cant make any money with these prices the government gives them "subsidies" ie the peoples money to make up the difference. The whole situation to me stinks of corruption

  • @NDNSupport I was born in Wales, I am an expert on the practicalities of living in a socialist system. I, am, asking a question, do you want to get rid of multiple big organisations and replace them with an even bigger one that has a monopoly and can use physical force? That is socialism, taking power away from private entities and putting the power in the hands of the state. Please correct me if I am wrong

  • @independence4wales If you could please explain some of what its like to live in a socialist system, or some of the aspects of it.

  • @NDNSupport so you want to replace all the big corporations with an even bigger corporation with a monopoly. Socialism creates the exact conditions socialists want to avoid

  • So your solution is what?

  • hit the nail on the head with this video

  • Ah! The irony! "I should write childrens' books." Even though this has some substance to it, YouTube is one big childrens' book. Pictures, fluff, some educational value; but mostly just stimulus for the already overstimulated. On to the next one...

  • Peter is poor because he goes out all weekend and blows his money instead of scrimping and saving like his bourgouse boss and investing it into something he has taken the time to investigate instead of condem. We all go to work and come back home and we all die. You have one chance in this world and you were lucky enough to be born into a society where you have the opportunity to make a video like this for others to see. It is a shame you are so negative that you stumble on that opportunity.

  • you are a big problem to this country

  • you are a Justin Bieber lover

  • go jump in a ditch

  • you are a socialist swine that is very vacuous

  • look at fag AMERICAS COLLAPSE = poor becoming poorer and rich becoming richer!

    Fuck capitalism! Fuck USA!

  • @Sasukekillsitachi Yeah! Freedom SUCKS! Why should we have the right to do what we want with our money?

  • @ratrat222

    Reflexively equating your freedom with your economic system...leaves something to be desired. You know why Wal-Mart has such low prices, right? You know it can't go on forever, right? It's about values, and yours probably vary from mine to the level of statistical error.

    Put down the malnourished Malaysian, and step away from the Kool-Aid dispenser...we're here to help.

  • @Sasukekillsitachi America sucks because socialist scum are ruining our government and telling people what to do. What has made the USA rich CAPITALISM. From the 1800s to the 1990s America has been a capitalist.

    The U.S government has turned into a big regulating welfare machine. It regulates everything, gives welfare to the to the lazy and FORCES the rich to give away there money. Why are they rich because they worked for it. Some guy did not just knock on there door and give them money.

  • "America sucks because socialist scum are ruining our government and telling people what to do." It actually conservative fascist who are ruining this country with stupid give corporations more freedom to screw people. "Why are they rich because they worked for it." This is conservative rhetoric even big corporation are the biggest welfare recievers and if this was true "wealth of nation" the book of modern economic said we need a progressive tax system for the money to be recycled

  • Vodka for everybody!

    Taste communist aggression!

    Filthy captiolists.

    -Nikolai

  • Yeah! It's awful that people have to work for a living.

  • you should write childrens books XD

  • Yeah, it sucks to have the wealth and resources controlled by a bunch of rich dudes. We definitely should have socialism in this country and let another bunch of bureaucrats make all our decisions for us. With capitalism, at least he gets a chance to be rich one day to control the resource and money. We totally should never let him have the chance. Communism rules! BTW, if you think FoxNews is biased (not that I think it's not), go to China or N. Korea to see the media there.

  • I'm not taking sides or anything.. but you make nice videos.

  • The vast majority I'm speaking of is America's declining position in education, The out of control cost of medical care. I don't care about the small percentage of super rich, I care about the average person. In capitalist societies the common man does far better than the common man in centrally planned societies. And morals are personal, and no one has a right to force their morals on another person.

  • Can you give me one actual example of a person starving to death because they were poor in a capitalist leaning country. Just one. It's common in countries that lean toward marxism. This video is a complete work of imagination, with no disceranble ties to reality.

  • @BelieversinThings My homeless uncle starved to death. And yes it was because he was living in a poor, capitalist country.

  • Comment removed

  • @richd506 You and your family should be ashamed of yourselves for letting your uncle starve to death. You have the arrogance to blame the system when this poor guy's own family turned their backs on him. It's one thing to talk about the government taking over your responsibility to your fellow man, It's another to let someone die as a result. Your family is evil.

  • the windows computer/apple macintosh you are using is capitalist.

    the youtube site you are using is capitalist.

    FAIL

  • @TheSummitnatural I dont even bother reasoning with them..

  • Right, let's use Marxist terminology and rhetoric, it's not like it hasn't been debunked theoretically or empirically before or anything...

    Are you familiar with Marx's Iron Law of Wages, Exploitation Theory, and Labor Theory of Value and the numerous refutations (many of which have been made for over a century, even by the mainstream) that has brought the framework to it's knees? Doubtful.

    But yes, continue to spout philosophy you know little about.

  • Mike,

    absolute bullshit.

    If your fairy-tale character had any bit of self esteem it would be a completely different story.

    i am the second generation of immigrants from Germany, Sweden, and Scotland, and i can assure you that the early 1900's were anything but friendly to my ancestors.

    nanny's, steel workers, carpenters -- no one had more than an eighth grade education.

    did they sit around on their asses waiting for some bozo to acknowledge their work? think

  • Peter is a poor waiter because he's too stupid to figure out how to manipulate the system to his advantage. And waiters don't make much money because it's an easy job and it doesn't require a rare skill. The supply of waiters is high so the demand for waiters is low, thus they don't earn much money. Socialists are just sour grapes, plain and simple. I'm not rich but you'll never hear me bitching about how "unfair" capitalism is. You're just as greedy as the rich, just without the money

  • @TurquoiseCowboy They're still greedy. Everyone is greedy to an extent. We all want a big nice house and 5 or more cars and not have to worry about sending our kids to college. That's the real problem with communism/socialism, no one has the chance to achieve their dreams.

  • @xtremejohnny69 in capitalism no one has the chance to achieve their dreams. and you are living in a dream

  • @TurquoiseCowboy your breath is stank

  • Capitalism is bad and so is communism but social-demokracy like in Finland,Sweden,Norway etc... is best system, look wikipedia if you dont bealive.

  • Peter can be a waiter his whole life or he can do his fafsa and go to college so he's not a fuckin loser. In communism, Peter would be a waiter his whole life cause that's what the party demands of him. So in the end communism keeps us poor and captialism makes us rich.

  • @xtremejohnny69 your fucking head is filled with capitalist propaganda

    democracy is peter staying as a waiter because he is not given the chance to study because capitalist pigs control all the money

    communism is peter given the chance to use his skills to its full potential and helping make the country grow as a whole along with low and high class jobs

  • @leotheloser Really? Is that why I'm from a single parent background but I can still go to college? Tell me one communist state that let's people go to college? You can't cause none of them do! The government doesn't want them going to college cause communism is all about control. Have you ever even read the communist manifesto? I have and that's why I'm a free market capitalist

  • @xtremejohnny69 like i said capitalist propaganda do you think communism is all mass killing single parent and go to collage? you are lucky in a communist society every single parent can go to collage communism is about control thats true control for what is best for everyone the idea of communism is great but it failed along with all the systems all we need are the ideal leaders capitalist shit
  • @leotheloser Collage? lmao. Ok first of all, in a communist state, the only people who go to college are the elites, i.e. Cuba and North Korea. Second, I don't think you can say the idea failed and it was all the leaders when communism has failed in every single country it's been tried in. Coincidence? Communism failed because it was more about making people equal than providing them with incentive to work. In capitalism you work to feed yourself, in communism you work against your will.

  • @xtremejohnny69 1) north korea and cuba are faggots.

    2) all the past leaders were faggots.

    in an ideal communist society.

    everyone is given an equal and proper education.

    everyone is placed in their niche and people are forced to be useful like it or not.

    while the government provides.

    the government provides more as their economy gets better.

    is that so bad?

    being forced to be useful.

    in democracies people cant be useful sometimes no matter how hard they want to be.

  • @leotheloser So you would rather force people to work a job they may not even like? All communism is is slavery. In capitalism you work to provide for yourself and your family, in communism, you work so the government won't kill you. And communism hasn't worked all around the world just because the leaders are faggots? Gotcha. If communism is so economically superior, why did China switch from communism to capitalism/totalitarianism?

  • @xtremejohnny69 That's not Communism you idiot. You were describing Leninism/Stalinism, which btw were SOCIALIST.

    Communism = The people own everything

    Socialism = The state owns everything

    In a TRUE Communist country, you would not be forced to work for a job you didn't want to.

  • @RomanSouljaBoy True communism sucks too. You still are forced to work for the benefit of the people and not yourself. You can only achieve success through capitalism. In capitalism, some are poor some are rich, but in communism, all are poor.

  • @xtremejohnny69 In Stalinism, everyone is poor. In Communism, everyone is what would be classed in a Capitalist society as middle-class.

    The upper class accounts for 1.5% of the United States population. Yet they own over 90% of the country's total income.

  • @RomanSouljaBoy I think the fact that people can succeed in a capitalist system is what makes it so great. In a classless communist system, no one succeeds or makes a profit so what is your incentive to even work? Only way you could make people work at that point would be at the barrel of a gun. So true communism is still slavery.

  • @xtremejohnny69 creating something for the wellbeing of everyone would be a huge success how can you not see that? yeah and btw there has never been true communism it would require a perfect nation devoid of greed and stuff so not very likely to happen capitalism isnt great its just the best we could come up with :P im a capitalist because im too greedy and selfish to be a communist i guess ... i wonder though since capitalism and greed go hand in hand it makes it very unchristian kinda godless

  • @HellForKitty I know there has never been a true communist state. Basically, when people are working for profit, it improves quality. All the greatest inventions and vaccines came out of the private sector, not government agencies. And yes I do think capitalism and atheism, or at least deism, go hand in hand, I myself, am an atheist. That's not to say I don't believe in people working together for the common good, I'm in the army so that requires alot of teamwork.

  • @HellForKitty Capitalism doesn't force people to be greedy. It simply allows them to be. People have to provide something someone else is willing to pay the price their asking for in order to get what they want. The greed is checked by free competition. Capitalism isn't just the least bad system, it's the best system. The vast majorityt of the problems people blame on capitalism are a result of just the opposite; TOO MUCH government control.

  • @BelieversinThings not sure what vast majority youre speaking of but most people i know blame capitalism for allowing to be greedy being openly immoral without repercussions . oh wait thats not right there are repercussions its just that the superrich dont notice em ordont care about them . laws exist because people simply arent that good we do stupid stuff if we are not reminded to refrain from doing them. greed is bad its not about having enough but having more people arent ready for the big C

  • Comment removed

  • @RomanSouljaBoy Nobody would be have to do a job they didn't want to? Who would do the jobs nobody wants?

  • @leotheloser If I need my car washed is it so bad if I force you to do it.

  • Peter is a loser.

    That's why he supports socialism.

  • @rujtj you are a pig

    thats why you support capitalism

  • @leotheloser

    "leo the loser" ...LOL!

    no wonder you're a socialist... 

  • @whymikeisok

    Nice work, and I think you should write children book, it would help future generations if any publisher is willing to publish it but I doubt it since most publishers are part of the system.

  • Wow, your smile was almost a creepy as who ever it was who touched you.

    Capitalism is the moist environment that allows bacteria like Wal Mart grow.

    But moist environments also allow things like, uhh, life to grow.

    Now either everyone can stop supporting fascist businesses like Wal Mart, or not

    Either way people are getting what they want.

  • the question arises than why try to oppose our natural tendencies. The opposing argument argues from the presupposition that humans are by default wrong in some way. Enter religion and you can see why it gets murky. Although if Jesus did exist his original ideas were relevant to that of working proletariat, you could even say he was the first communist.

  • capitalism is about power and the imbalance of it. It relies on an imbalance of power it takes advantage of the natural spectrum of human capability. Their argument for this is freedom. Equality on the other hand requires restraint from those who are more than capable and learning for those who are not. The idea behind equality is the strong bettering the weak rather than living off of them. This idea is fundamentally opposed to nature, you can see why it is difficult to implement.

  • @WATITDOO16 If a business provides a product that betters the lives of numerous people, creates jobs that pay, etc. then shouldn't the people in that business providing said product be able to use the wealth they created to purchase things they need to live?

  • Capitalists increase their power by creating need, in the form of lets say useless time consuming products like the endless amount of technological "advancements" yet no cures for common ailments but I digress. Capitalists are what I refer to as human naturists, individuals who act on their impulse to revert to a zero-sum mentality. Communism requires an understanding of human nature and the subsequent strength to deny it in the name of allowing your fellow man to be happy as well.

  • @WATITDOO16 Free trade is not a zero-sum game. It happens when both parties win (although, there is such a thing as "buyer's remorse"). The consumer creates the need by saying they want something, the producer tries to provide it so as to make a profit. Big businesses increase power by using state force to eliminate competition and get subsidies, but this is not capitalism, this is creating a monopoly using another monopoly.

  • I find it funny when people refer to the state as this thing that exists exclusively from themselves. Everyone is part of the state the state is just an abstract representation of all the day to day dealings that makes us interdependent on one another. Capitalism uses the increasing division of labor and power to create the illusion of independence by stretching the space between production and goods. We're all part of the state we are the state without it you'd die, you need people.

  • @WATITDOO16 No, it's possible to be self-sufficient, many of the services the state forces you to pay for, you don't ever need, states own almost all land on Earth, despite not living on or using it. States are involuntary. No one can force you to buy anything in capitalism. In real capitalism, the wealthy become wealthy by providing goods or services the people want. If both parties value what the other has more than what they have, and they trade, both become more wealthy.

  • Comment removed

  • You, sir, are awesome. And you should indeed write children's books.

  • One more thing, without capitalism there is no competition or ambition. You wouldn't have the internet, a car, cruises, or even a cell phone without it. Why would anyone create something for nothing? Government also controls the state in socialism so everyone would live equally poor. Not to mention the state would force the people well would have to in order to maintain itself. Cuba and China depressing. Netherlands , Denmark, labor shortages.

  • Well what about people like my grandfather that came to this country without a dime to his name, not know any English, was persecuted by the people that lived here, and made a whole dollar an hour washing dishes, having to leave his home because of communism/socialism, but makes it big here owning a 3 bedroom house with swimming pool in California? We are the youngest nation that has come the farthest in history becoz of Capitalism. Get your facts straight.

  • @liberalbs And we are doing a great job of being greedy pigs as we destroy the planet, great job capitalism!

  • @GreenPrep yay hurray who needs earth anyways lol lets all die for a piece of paper with a dead president on it

  • @lechestrike because we are "supposed" to go to work and make greedy industrialists and bankers richer while we all suffer. It's fun! And we get to buy all sorts of junk we don't need too! Yay! Gotta love capitalism.

  • @GreenPrep yep not retarted at all

  • I currently have to go, we can continue the argument tomorrow.

  • Fair enough. I would honestly like to see some pure anarcho-capitalist "laissez-faire" experiments at some parts of the world, as well as some pure anarcho-communist experiments at some other parts. The only limits for both being "no permanent impact on nature".

  • Capitalism can not survive without slave illegals to grind down working peoples wages. 

  • @TheThedot

    they could, but not as well

  • @angeltears87 The German's Democratic socialism seems to be the very best system.

  • @TheThedot

    the system they had briefly in soviet russia would be best. That is what we must aim for.

  • @angeltears87 You know nothing of history if you can claim that. The soviet union was a terrible failure, which made socialism look bad for quite a long time. Northern Spain in the 1930s was a much better example of socialism in action. Lenin actually dissolved the worker's soviets, thus destroying any power the workers had over the means of production, producing a society in which the government took over the role of the oppressor, rather than eliminating it and creating democratic control.

  • Join the International Communist Party! We must uprise and show the world Communism is great! We need equality not the Capitalists who don't treat the less-fortunate with what they need just to live. Food and shelter!

    Join the Communist Party! I seek new ideas for communism, capitalist pigs mock and laugh at us, we will soon laugh at them when theire empire falls!

    Details are on the FB page and Youtube channel

  • Marx' theory of "worker class taking the power" sucks, because what's wrong with capitalism is the "power" itself. Power corrupts, eiher in capitalism or in socialism.

    Anyway, there are good things about marx as well, but marxism is not the only way to achieve socialism.

  • @anarkotolian

    The problem with capitalism is the fact that the minority are in power, and that ensures the minority interests are catered to.

    Democracy=majority in power.

    Do you oppose democracy?

  • @angeltears87

    Yes I do oppose democracy. Neither minority nor majority should impose.

    Anyway, it's a far away discussion. For the moment , we agree on that: capitalism sucks.

  • @anarkotolian

    Socialism is true democracy.

  • @angeltears87

    Once again: what's dangerous about this democracy concept is the POWER itself (greek "kratos"=power).

    Whether held by a minority or a majority, power corrupts.

    Now, let me say: I believe SOCIALISM IS THE HOPE FOR HUMANITY. But the main struggle of socialists should no longer be about "how to get the power from capitalists" , but rather about "how to deal with the power once we get it from capitalists".

  • @anarkotolian

    They deal with both.

  • @anarkotolian Anarcho-syndicalism, Anarcho-communism, and some forms of libertarian-marxism answer this by advocating solidarity groups which work off of consent, rather than minority/majority rule. Solidarity groups prevent power voids by allowing the workers a means of organising change... but by being based on consent, they also prevent conflicts of interest, in that they don't allow another group or person to lord over different groups or persons.

  • @Marcownz747

    Sounds good, and I wouldn't call it libertarian-marxism. When we omit minority/majority concepts and conflicts of interest, that means we seek an alternative way for socialism (than Marx). Marxism is valuable theory, but it's not the only-single-holy perfect way to socialism.

  • @anarkotolian I agree that libertarian-marxism isnt the only road. Marx, however, spoke of many different paths to socialism as equally viable. But marxism is more an analysis than a solution. Bakunin and proudhound present nice alternatives, as well.

    Personally, I'm an Anarcho-syndicalist... but I still hold onto Marx's analysis and critique of capitalism.

  • @angeltears87 I oppose democracy. What of it? Majority rule is not the antithesis of minority rule. It is possible (and most effective, I would argue) to organise the means of production in such a way that the workers are organised based on consensus, rather than majority or minority rule. It is possible to come to conclusions as the product of rational discussion, and has been done on the scale of entire nations. Socialism is the stage in which the workers (part 1 of 2)

  • @angeltears87 (part 2 of 2) control the means of production. Thus, socialism can TECHNICALLY be acquired through representative democracy (i.e. a republic), direct democracy, or consensus. I shoot for the latter, and do so because I believe it allows for voluntary societies which allow for the most amount of peace, and the least amount of force. The previous two force a political situation which requires minority voices to be shut out, or extinguished if they become too loud.

  • @Marcownz747

    Sorry I do not buy into anarchism, that is crazy talk. Impossible to get complete agreement all the time and it would result in not making decisions at all...

    socialism can never be achieved through parliament because the pollies have to serve the interests of bg business, big business does not want socialism and will prevent it.

    Unless you are defining socialism as very different to me...you realise it is an economic system yes?

  • @angeltears87 I'm defining socialism in the technical manner. Socialism is the stage in which the Workers have control over the means of production. This usually is in reference to direct control, but could (hypothetically) refer to representative control (not that I would advocate this by any means). As far as Anarchism goes, though... Any Marxist, Communist or Anarchist realises that Anarchism is the ultimate means of running society, after scarcity is gone. Even Lenin acknowledged this.

  • @angeltears87 (part 2) and Consensus is not difficult to acquire when in the confines of a directly-worker run society. It has been done numerous times through the use of bottom-up trade unions. The IWW, a famous Anarchist trade union (almost single-handedly responsible for the 40 hour work week, minimum wage, and a minimum standard for working conditions) works based on the ideas of consensus, which is reached through discussion. Every organisation I work with functions effectively like this.

  • @Marcownz747

    My statement was it is impossible to have consensus every time.

    I would not define socialism as a stage so much as the ends.

    "any marxist, communist or anarchist realises that anarchism is the ultimate means of running society"

    Incorrect.

  • @angeltears87 Your statement was that consensus is impossible to have ANY time.

    You define socialism wrong. Nothing is an end, and socialism is merely one of the possible stages of managing the means of production. It, however, is a desired path to Communism as defined by Marx, and Anarchism as defined by Bakunin.

    I should have said "Any Marxist or communist following the traditions or words of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Mao, or the various radical unions of the '20s realises that..."

  • @Marcownz747

    No, no it was not.

    You define socialism wrong. It isn't a stage, it describes an economic and political system whereby society is run and owned by the working class.

    I am a marxist and I follow the traditions laid out by marx. He did not state that we should aim for anarchism.

  • @angeltears87 I am also a Marxist and have been for years. Marx specifically stated that Socialism was the method to achieving Communism, in that socialism would allow society to produce for necessity, rather than for profit, and would eventually produce a society void of scarcity. Marx argued that Communism (the ultimate goal of Socialism) was a society which would be based on super-abundance, and would have no need for a government, as there would be no need for redistribution.

  • @Marcownz747

    Yes, but that has nothing to do with it being a stage towards anarchism...

  • @angeltears87 Listen, I love Marxists. I am one myself. However, you really must get out and read more. Marx's defining work was not "The Communist Manifesto", it was "Capital". "The communist manifesto" is the demands of the German Communist Party of the late 1800s. Capital is almost literally the book which defines Marxism. Please pick that one up and read it. You'll find that everything I am telling you is true.

  • @Marcownz747

    I have not had time to read all of capital yet, it is quite long.

    However I really don't believe you. Marx was not an anarchist...

  • You realize that in order to feed everyone from a centralized source, to provide everyone with childcare, everyone with healthcare, everyone with energy, everyone with everything they want, that equalization is nothing more then conformity. Everyone is forced down to a pathetic squatting existence, I know people that have lived under communism, I have seen former communist countries, I know communism....and its not pretty. Its a fancy way of redistributing poverty.

  • @davedavedaveannoy1

    None of those countries have anything to do with socialism :D

  • @angeltears87 You really are stupid, communism is the next step in socialism, instead of a partially collective society its a fully collective society, and communists themselves and marx himself has referred to it as a type of socialism. And secondly, through justification and legislative rationalization many current socialist nations are becoming more socialistic, which means many of them will eventually arrive at communism. Socialism is just a temporary system, it always goes to an extreme.

  • @davedavedaveannoy1

    My claim is those countries are not communist.

  • @angeltears87 Really, the United Nations considers them communist, many upheld economists consider them communist, they call themselves communist, their methods are communistic, there is no private property, the state runs everything, they uphold revolutions and worship Marx and Engels, everything is maintained by the Soviets, everything is either nationalized or collectivized. Sounds communist to me. What do you consider them?

  • @davedavedaveannoy1

    They are capitalist. They run on profits.

    achieving socialism through parliament is not possible. Marx asserted revolution as the method by which the working class could take power.

  • @angeltears87 And whats wrong with profit, both parties benefit, we don't cast down and abuse consumers like you paint us as. Through corporate competition technological advancement is made because both companies want money so they compete and create better tools to gain advantage over their enemy. And in order to survive they produce products to sell to the consumer, when the consumer purchases it they get their profit and the consumer gets their product. Capitalism is mutually benefitial.

  • @davedavedaveannoy1

    I do not agree capitalism is beneficial.

  • @davedavedaveannoy1

    At the final stage, capitalism leads to monopolies that stop technological advances. Think on all those new technologies (in computer science or electrical cars etc) that are kept locked in a company's top-secret files, to sell first the existing old/inefficient/polluting technology. Think just on Mcrosoft... Drug industry: selling drugs are more important than healing or prevention.

    Those are just examples. My point is that capitalism is inefficient.

  • @anarkotolian Monopolies cant happen in pure capitalism, they only come about through the corruption of Corporatism

  • @davedavedaveannoy1

    Eh eh eh yeah in theory ...

    I remind you, in theory communism also works perfectly ;)

  • @anarkotolian Only one way to find out, the establishment of Lassiez- Faire has been one of the most widely anticipated experiments in economic history. And you claim it will fail, but until it happens we will never know.

  • @davedavedaveannoy1 There are no Communist states. They are governments whose elected officials are members of the communist party. Communism is the end-product of a world-wide socialist network which has done away with scarcity as a whole, and exists without the need for the state. The nations you list are authoritarian-socialist. Allow me to provide an example.  If we elected a Jewish Rabbi to the presidency, would we be a Jewish Theocracy? No. The same idea applies to those nations.

  • @Marcownz747 Funny isn't it, Marx and Engels where explicitly clear, their instructions precise and their message understandable, why even a "capitalist pig" like myself understood the idea behind the plan. And any statesman with half a brain could establish a real soviet socialism, yet time after time again they started out pure and become corrupted. No Communism never survived because no communism ever could. Utopia, complete self-less collectivism is an unreachable untouchable dream.

  • @davedavedaveannoy1 Marxism is very different from Utopian Socialism, in that it advocates scientific theory applied to the ideas of socialism, to allow for the idea of communism to change throughout history. The problem wasn't that communism was flawed, but that various parties took control and high-jacked the revolution. This would be like claiming that democracy cannot exist because Adolf Hitler essentially destroyed the Wiemar Republic. Authoritarian socialism does not work. (1 of 2)