Dumbing Us Down, by John Taylor Gatto (2 of 2)

[kozychik]

At 7min begins a tragic, anti-child false premise. Imagine yourself at any age (8,10,12) and listen to what he's saying as if he were speaking about you. How do you feel? Is/was this true about you? about your child? We learn because we are learners and we want to know.

[MrJuno6]

"its not a long book".... "didn't read all of it".... Because I'm short of time, but I've got the time to make a 20 minuet video for Youtube about about a book I haven't read. What a half baked jumped up sarcastic little prick. you must be a teacher.

[nancyl2]

Individuality discouraged (PERSONAL opinions not allowed) because of the PUBLIC OPINIONS the Media sets for humanity to drink in like a good little sheep with the authority figure telling us how to think. I was upset on the 1st vid at the comment that reading this book through would have changed this mans take on the school system; sharing parts of this 30-yr. teacher book. The teacher acts proud he have conditioned our children with our tax dollars to NOT THINK FOR THEMSELVES. Pissed off-yep

[Stevil3113]

You showcase your own idiocracy and short attention span here, that you obviously picked up from your bout with public schooling here. Hope you had time to finish the book and learned what a real voice has to say on the subject.

[Stevil3113]

You prove Mr. Gatto's point brilliantly here. Thank you. Libertarian... lol. You've learned to label and tattle very well.

[partytill10]

In a genuine free democracy like the US was supposed to be, each family should be able to decide on the education (or not) of their children. Parents not state should be sovereign over their cjhildren until a certain point in their lives (which might not necessarily be years but might for example be sexual maturity).

this creates the diversity and spirit of a free country that our forced schools stamp out.

[SoleilCollective]

You're a very product of the system. It's a sign that you're uneducated when you can only see the black and white of what Gatto is trying to say, you can't comprehend the middle gray that is the same gray the system uses to fuck everyone over. What makes you think the big businesses, not your government but the real owners, want you to intensely study psychology, science, or philosophy, when all your purpose is to drive a car, punch in a time clock, and do your job?

[Quiksilver209]

No, for the solution go to YOURSELF and awaken your potential!!!!!!

[Quiksilver209]

this guy hates freedom

[lopytube]

@Quiksilver209

I know you posted awhile ago but.....theres something off about this guy.

I cant put my finger on it

[Pjaynes781]

Reading half a book and then doing a review on it seems quite DUMB. You must be an Illuminati plant sent to deceive and mislead people. Your so smart your like a white Buddha. You are so smart, SMRT. Go back to grass your just a sheep.

[Irisheyes77christy]

There is really some wonderful and innovative ideas concerning education and it is a shame when people stay closeminded and think that there is but only one way to successfully educate a person. You really need to educate yourself further about the education system before reviewing it.

[Irisheyes77christy]

It is not my understanding that he does believe that a child should just learn whatever they want (not in the way that you made out to sound).

Like you said; learn something for as long as they want and then move on when they are ready. That is not the same as learning whatever you want. It also does not have to mean that they do not have people teaching them, guiding them, gently moving them along, and so forth.

[123backinyerface]

J.T. Gatto should have been running the educational system never mind being buried within it. To have been lucky enough to have been taught by Mr Gatto I think would have been an absolute privilege. But to have someone that has barely started shaving pull apart his book in a 20 minute video. Is the real height of ignorance.

The public schools system is designed to produce 2 things... Servers and Soldiers.

[readmuch]

Youre a good little boy aren't you with your patronizing sarcasm! Remember don't question authority you may not get your next check after learning something! He has 30 yrs experience and you know more? You can't see how he's expressing sad truth that U support. How delusional, you have no clue! What a waste of time watching to even hope that you might have a good point.

Read CREATURE FROM JEKYLL ISLAND if you have the guts.

[SSSSTSILYALPRUO]

You develop the facility for freedom by practicing it.

DUH.

[SSSSTSILYALPRUO]

7:07. Look at the head of the human genome project. Studied whatever he wanted under his mother.

WTF dude are you even thinking?

[Dorje1428]

"don't judge a book by half its contents!"

[sabbath000eddy]

It is not a crime to let the child study what he wants. This book is amazing but your opinions are not. The child can learn when he/she is ready to, why keep him/her in schools being indoctrinated until he/she is at a good age to think for themselves.

[nightwraith666]

What if the child never feels ready? Children don't pop out of the womb self motivated. Just as a child needs training wheels on their bicycle until a certain level of proficiency is developed, so too do children need a basic education before they have a foundation for self-motivation.

[sabbath000eddy]

This child has parents. They teach him how to walk, how to ask for the things he needs, what should be eaten and so on. They can too teach him how to learn alone, but they will be around him for much long. They will teach him actually. I think I don't agree with the idea of parents not teaching their children. The point is that, when the child is not in schools being fed with other people's personal opinions and propaganda, he will be more criative and able to discover things by himself.

[nightwraith666]

Parents do teach their children how to walk. Walking is something they do on a daily basis. Parents should teach children as much as possible. However, no parent knows everything and children will have to learn things about which the parent is ignorant from other people. These people we call teachers and they have been educated about that which they teach.

[sabbath000eddy]

Parents may not know everything about mathematics, science and so one. BUT they know a lot about life, A LOT. And the child will learn about life living it, not inside a classroom. Teachers are not to be trusted, they were TRAINED, they obey orders from the state. what they teach to children are doctrines, behavioral patterns and rules which are designed to build the future submissive citizens of a country. Books can be much better than teachers!

[nightwraith666]

That's true if you're speaking of public school. That's what this whole two part video is about. Did you even watch it? Then you agree with the videos, correct? How about private school. Where did you get your education? Are you a parent? If not then how do you know what you're talking about? Is English your first language?

[sabbath000eddy]

I had watched it a long time ago, and I wrote my comment, to which you replied, a long time ago. some private schools MAY be a little better than government schools, but home-schools is the best you can do if you really want your children NOT to be indoctrinated and influenced by teachers, students and institutions. What about you... do you agree?

[SSSSTSILYALPRUO]

Babies learn to walk because it's the nature of humans to do so..LOL. I never taught my son how to walk.. he learned how because he saw things above he wanted to reach, and he figured out that it's easier to get from point A to B if he stood upright.

You have kids, do ya?

If I teach my child to be resourceful early on, they will learn anything they like, including things that I don't know about or am unable to teach them myself.

[SSSSTSILYALPRUO]

I agree. Instilling the ability to self-teach is THE greatest gift one can give to a child.

[SSSSTSILYALPRUO]

He can't pronounce the author's name right, even.  What a retard... LOL. I mean that literally.

[SSSSTSILYALPRUO]

Curiousity is human nature.

[Ayla8711]

"He can study what he wants when he can think for himself"

How can he think for himself when it's just been stated that his public education is designed to keep him obeidient to the state?

[nightwraith666]

He was talking about education in a private school.

[Ayla8711]

No he wasn't. Gatto's book is about Public education. Why would he talk about private education when the book he's discussing is about public?

[nightwraith666]

You misunderstood. I meant that I was talking about private education and that Mr. Cropper teaches at his own private school. Not that the book was about private education. I was simply pointing out that not all education or teachers are bad. But yes, home schooling is also a good and viable alternative, provided the parent either knows the subject or has access to books and other resources to teach with if they don't. I mean, they should have books and resources either way.

[SSSSTSILYALPRUO]

No he wasn't.

[pigeatinginfidel]

You know I'll have to get this book. I homeschooled my kid her whole life. But this year I was sent overseas and she had to stay at her grandmother's house. One condition was that she had to go to school. I call her twice a week, and the things she says she hates about the school are the very things you mention! We'd spend all day digging around in history sometimes. She hates the bells, and she hates that the teachers are not interested in anything outside the scope of the lesson.

[manicmondaymomma]

two year olds are already independent. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

[58robbo]

perhaps if you finished reading the book you might come into contact with some libertarian solutions!

[jimprjayp]

This video was two years ago, I wonder how he feels today.  What is it with people thinking Libertarians are for mass chaos? He likes Montessori. That's where I started. Unless he can't overcome his public school upbringing, as evidenced by the have to teach the kid comment "can't let him think for himself". LOL!

[saldownik]

Review of the unfinished book? Worthless. You would do better finishing it than recording this "review".

[robertcgage]

This "Reviewer" is a poster boy for the need to home-school.

Dr. Robinson's 5 children completed calculus by the age of 16. The middle child, a girl, completed calculus by age of 14. The oldest two skiped two years of collage. Oh, I forgot to mention they where self taught. Dr. Robinson provided the structure and the children provided the learning.

One of his sons created the web-site at robinsoncurriculum[.]com

[Kingfillins]

You forgot to mention art. Art is the most important and least understood subject. Art Class highlights all failings in Public Schooling. The notion that a child must duplicate and imitate its surroundings is the reason we so many robot minds.

Gatto is more suggesting a "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" styled approach. Where individuals recognise their own skills etc and apply them.

Children are learning "subjects" before they learn about themselves sufficiently.

[Kingfillins]

It is a crime to let him be free???

You are missing the entire point of the book.

You have just read that what the "teacher" in public schools does is basically "control" the child. Not teach it "subjects".

So by you suggesting that you can teach a child "subjects" that teach the child "freedom", you trip up. Because that is what all teachers are trying to do. But fail because they are in fact teaching "control".

Unless you have child centered education that is all you will ever have.

[ScifiAngel74]

My eight year old homeschooler found this quite amusing.

[MostlyMinty]

Cropperb has ego issues.

[MostlyMinty]

"A child can study independently as soon as he can read, but independent study is NOT a legitimate method of educating the child."

According to *whom*?

"So my minimum standard is a core curriculum that gives the child the ability to think critically on their own."

And who are *you*?

"The fact is, when they're say, under ten, they're too clueless to guide their own study. "

You state this is a fact without backing it up therefore it can at best be an opinion.

[MostlyMinty]

Sounds to me like this guy's objective is just to put him (Gatto) down because perhaps he feels threatened by him.

[Leq001]

Another illusion my friend. People will do their own cleaning and food if there's no one to do it for them. Unfortunately (As as former student I'd think FORTUNATELY) there are janitors and cooks, in school.

[apologiamixer]

Gatto plans to build a utopian rural retreat on his 128 acres in upstate New York where there will be "no schedule, no agenda, no lectures, no classes, no planned recreation." I suppose there will be no one to prepare meals, clean the toilets or pick up the trash after they leave either. Sounds a bit closer to hell than a heavenly retreat.

[winbri5]

This poor Moderator is so dumbed down he helped make the point of the book ! I sure in hell wouldn't want my kid in this guys class.....

[wasserkopf61]

"Die gedanken sind frei"

The one thing you can take away from JTG is that schooling is NOT education. I personally mentally disconnected from the public school system in the second grade and taught myself all the subjects you mentioned. A teacher or a school is not required. And if you do some further reading you might eventually come to that conclusion. Then you might be in a better position to offer solutions...

[bigcree]

THE Design is to create a BEEHIVE.

[Timliesl]

This guy really needed to read the whole book. First, Gatto mentioned the good success of homeschoolers. Also, a type of preliminary solution on a "congregational" method was offered. It basically says to let the communtiy figure out how they want to educate. If members of the community do not like it, they can find another community. That is my take, anyway.

[suboreo]

... cultivate whatever the child is interested in. If a child is truly passionate about learning to play piano , than he should spend 90 percent of his time learning to perfect his piano playing skills, not sitting in a classroom listening to a teacher read the works of shakespeares.. Students should only learn basic reading skills, basic math skills and basic writing skills and then after they mastered those skills , they should be left alone to pursue there interests.

[gypsy1145]

like spelling

[sexwithbozscaggs]

...and by spelling, you meant grammar?

[suboreo]

why should a student go through school learning the history of math , philosophy, the history of ancient greece when upon graduation the child is never going to apply any of that information he learned in schoolI. I think you should let a child wonder and find out what subjects are they truly passionated about , especially for a person with asperger syndrome who's interests might be very restricted.Nobody should force a child to learn something they should only helped that child ...

[RogerHoare]

Unforgiving, these Randroids, aren't they?

[Samidreaming]

That you did'nt even finish the book or explore the many other materials by Mr. Gatto is telling.His research is extensive and his introductory primer on the problems of our public education system probably was not intended to provide solutions.That he so ably points up the contextual curriculum of mass education is worth much deeper inspection than your shallow critique.

[regresseur]

Wow, couldn't have been more poignant about Randroid's critique. These videos are just terribly saddening on many levels.

[nancyl2]

@Samidreaming He is reading the mans WORDS not making up. You all better wake up; this is called CONDITIONING; + a young lady ( age 10) came up to my friend; Jan.27, 2008-- a prophet introduced to me one yr. before my partner passed away Jan.27, 2007. The Gal said to him, "Sir, this gift is for you; You are a miracle; they missed you; you have your full memory. --I do not want to go to school, I am being brain washed." she walked to her parents + left. TRUTH. Gift was for me.:-) YEP happened.

[liamshy28]

the solution is not at all objective. it is subjective. the reason why our educational system is ran this way is because it is an institution for feeding our desires and getting people ready for the consumers

demand. This is all because of a human condition we call the ego, the animalistic cravings for feeling wanted, sex, and survival of the fittest. Male and females. It still stands today. we need inner healing to get back on track. not religion. but inner awareness of truth. healing.:)

[laetrille]

It is not what the school teaches that is incorrect it is all the garbage that is introduced into the market that are a distractin, ipod, american idol, ect., I watch House M.D., but I know it is medicaly accurate because I read BOOKS!!!

[liamshy28]

so true. right on. :)

[SlaveStorm]

Teach a person to watch TV and they will be your eternal child and slave for life.

[SlowAndSteady2]

Teach a boy to WANT to travel the open seas and you need not convince him to learn how to sail them. Give the child the ability to crawl, to walk, to speak, to write, a few other basics, and the rest they can learn themselves.

[fishslab]

You should check out the Robinson Curriculum. It lays out a fundamental educational system and the children basically teach themselves (with minimal parental oversight.). From what I've read, it seems like a really great program.

[HermitsDomain]

thanks for reviewing that book!!! Nice to know and very sad - we all have to think for ourselves :)

[docmoriarti]

I think the reaction to experts is too knee-jerk. While we don't want adults to be treated as kids, there is nothing wrong with kids being told what knowledge is of relevance to what they need to know in the future. For all the talk of "reason", who do you convince a child that alphabet needs to be known? If you think you can do it by appealing with an argument, you are kidding yourself. The thing is most of what kids learn is just tools for further knowledge. So they are just other alphabets.

[IrrigatedPancake]

I think you're right. Some amount of systematic education (schooling) is a good way of planting important points in a kid's head. However, in my experience, more is learned/derived faster when curiosity is allowed to lead.

About the alphabet, around the mid 1700's, before the US had any public schools, the literacy rate was about 98% (among non-slaves) and the content of what they read was very impressive and rare today. My guess is kids wanted to know what their parents were doing.

[elzoog]

That's bullshit. Ok, a kid doesn't know the subject. So what? For example, when I was 10 years old I wanted to study Japanese. I had a totally messed up way of studying it because I had no clue that you had to study the grammar of the language. I thought it was good enough to just get a English-Japanese dictionary and look up words I wanted to know. But I learned that this is a totally messed up way to learn a language. Because of that, I learned why grammar is important.

[polyzygote]

you have no idea what you are talking about so i won't even bother with criticism. finish the book and do some additional research and then come back and try again. i.e. go do your homework :)

[nosmajrw]

who made you god? you are a hypocrite you say that freedom will make us whim worshippers? who are you to say who we are and what we become.  you say its "bad" for people to think their emotions are the most important things in the universe. How bout this buddy, let people do what they want, its none of your fucking bussiness.

[CultOfByron]

Despite this very regimented approach to teaching kids in the US, how do you feel about the fact that society is currently full of whim-worshippers? Could this be a result of the first point - taught confusion? Excellent video! 5*

[johnny2020vision]

I've heard quite a few of his lectures and he always commends elite private boarding schools for actually educating people. That's where they really teach literature, grammar, public speaking, history, economics, political theory, and philosophy...public schools barely touch any of those subjects in depth. And what Gatto's complaining about is the inequity in the quality of education according to economic class.

[MatthewLeee]

Wish I went to a boarding school :(

[johnny2020vision]

No offense, but you do come off sounding like a condensing asshole in some parts. And perhaps you should investigate more of Gatto's position before spouting your skewed opinion about him. I've never heard him say that a person should study whatever they want without a properly based education. That doesn't make any sense and it's wrong for you to insinuate that's what he meant without understanding the full context of his point.

[jordanfullam]

this fellows pedantry offends my good taste!

[MrCropper]

Well, it clearly offends you...

[onaerrot]

Well, I read the whole book and he doesn't say have a child study whatever he whims. He endorses a classical, western education. This guy needs to read the whole book. While he's at it, he should read The Underground History of American Education. It's free on-line. But FIRST read the whole book, geez.

[cropperb]

I didn't say he did. But he unequivocally endorses the idea of a student guiding their own study. So my point stands.

[onaerrot]

Well, apparently his ideas work. The children he taught turned out quite well, from what I hear. So he has real-world experience with his opinions.

[cropperb]

Well, from your argument, public education "works" since Mr Cropper himself was educated in public schools. So I guess we don't really need reform.

[captainsurrey]

Why are you talking about yourself in the third person?

[myslpmommy]

Maybe, Mr Cropper got educated despite his schooling? :) It was most definitely true for me. I had to wait for the school to be over to finally start my education.

Just like in a quote from Mark Twain:

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."

[akinobjectivist]

opposite of social deviants? that is a drone. Japanese Educators consider their own students drones.

[AlexAnCapAdvocate]

Thanks for doing the video. Seems like it has few redeeming qualities, and I can just overlook whatever flaws the book has.

I'm really interested in the concept of effectively planned homeschooling. Alas, I don't plan on having a child... so that interest may not be particularly fruitful.

[kompiled]

In regards to the option of having the child "study whatever they want", at what age are you (and Gatto) referring? Does Gatto mean that 6 year-olds should go about any topic as they please, or does he mean thirteen and fourteen year-olds? At what age do you think that a child can think independently and pursue individual interests more liberally? I am interested in this distinction.

[cropperb]

A child can study independently as soon as he can read, but independent study is NOT a legitimate method of educating the child. So my minimum standard is a core curriculum that gives the child the ability to think critically on their own. The fact is, when they're say, under ten, they're too clueless to guide their own study. Self-guided study is for college - after the kid has been given a basic education.

[Kirkegaard]

Independent study was legitimate method of educating Benjamin Franklin, it was also a legimitate method of educating The head of the public side of the Human Genome Project Francis S Collins. It was also a legimitate method for George Washington also.

[cropperb]

If Benjamin Franklin's education is what you mean when you say "independent study" then i'm all for independent study.

[tf8252]

You might want to google the "robinson curriculum". Doctor Robinson's children did quite well with indep study LONG before they were offered their rious Cal-Tech/Stanford scholarships.

[myslpmommy]

You really should read some of John Caldwell Holt's books. You should start with "How Children Fail".

[suzannabell]

Yes, THAT is an excellent book! John Holt's entire philosophy on 'unschooling' is amazing, and so simplistically natural. If more people read the books "How Children Learn" and "How Children Fail" we'd have many more homeschoolers (more correctly, "unschoolers") in this country.