Lutheran eucharist - Lutherische Eucharistie - Luthérienne eukaristi

[HaroldHeslop]

Are Swedish churches almost always nearly empty?

[karpov89]

@HaroldHeslop How so? The churches are not living quarters, but during this service it was certainly not empty..people just not sit in the front.

[emdaviwm]

We have this Sanctus, in English and Swedish, in our American Lutheran worship book (ELW)!

[karpov89]

@emdaviwm That is interesting, what church is that? So do you have the whole liturgy in Swedish and use to celebrate the mass in Swedish?

[emdaviwm]

@karpov89 In the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), our worship book contains hymns and service music from many cultures and traditions, including the sanctus I heard in this video (Du ar helig). But no, as a whole church we do not have the liturgy in Swedish nor do we regularly celebrate in languages other than English. There is a congregation in Philadelphia around the original Swedish settlement there which has the mass in Swedish.

[karpov89]

@emdaviwm Yes, Du är Helig, du är hel (1985) with music and lyrics by the priest is hymn no 785 in the hymn book of the Church of Sweden; not a traditional Sanctus though. But it is nice! I guess that it is in state of Delaware? It belonged to Sweden (part of the colony New Sweden) when Sweden was a great power. Maybe we could get it back...

[gospelgirl1964]

What language is this?



[karpov89]

@gospelgirl1964 Well as the text says it is from Sweden and the language is Swedish.

[oakking1]

the size of the altar is out of place for the size of the church.

[karpov89]

@oakking1 I don't think that it should be larger...but as you can see there is a high altar before which is the original one and suited for the church. Unfortunately another one is sometimes placed in front of the high altar so that the mass can be celebrated versus populum according to the principles of the Novus Ordo mass (although no referral is made to that mass per se).

[212Leyden]

only one pope away...

[brndurham]

@garciadelacadena

nd as for the "Masonic" thing, I just don't really care; I know nothing of the masons, and do not not believe in conspiracy theories.

[brndurham]

Romans 5:12: For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many." If Christ died only for many, and could not mean all, we would have scripture contradicting Trent, which as faithful Catholics understand, is not possible. Second, the aramaic word for 'many' meant 'an undefined multitude' or 'the all who are many'. Don't give the 'pro vobis et pro multis' stuff.

Now, I have addressed that.

[brndurham]

@karpov89

Vänta lite ... Åh, jag är så ledsen, jag visste inte att bönen var i beskrivningen. Jag är fruktansvärtledsen för det ! Förlåt mig för att dra förhastade slutsatser, jag läste inte den "heliga och levande offer" del den massan. Jag är mycket ledsen för det. Du hade rätt, denna massa tyder på en sacrificium.

[karpov89]

@brndurham Det är ok!

[brndurham]

Finally, I have researched this issue by myself, many times; and I fully believe that our Omnipotent triune God in heaven would not allow the liturgy of the Holy Mass to be made invalid due to a change in the words of consecration that isn't really a change; I doubt that God himself is quite nearly as nitpicky about words as you traditionalists. Think like our all-loving, all-powerful God, not like an amateur traditionalist theologian infected with the sin of PRIDE!

[brndurham]

Finally, I have researched this issue by myself, many times; and I fully believe that our Omnipotent triune God in heaven would allow the liturgy of the Holy Mass to be made invalid due to a change in the words of consecration that isn't really a change; I doubt that God himself is quite nearly as nitpicky about words as you traditionalists. Think like our all-loving, all-powerful God, not like an amateur traditionalist theologian infected with the sin of PRIDE!

[brndurham]

I've read tha apostolic fathers... and almost everything they said, complies with Catholic doctrine. I can even disprove the lutheran dogma of the eucharist as a 'beneficium' instead of a 'sacrificium' as was commonly believed by original lutherans.

[karpov89]

@brndurham The eucharist is of course a sacrificium...

[brndurham]

@karpov89

Naturligtvis, Eukaristin är en sacrificium, inte ett beneficium. Det är precis vad jag just sa. Allt annat är bara lutherska läran.

Of course, the Eucharist is a sacrificium, not a beneficium. That's exactly what I just said. Everything else is just Lutheran doctrine.

Utique, Eucharistia sit 'sacrificium', non 'beneficium'. Hoc est quod dixio. Omnes aliae ideae sunt Lutherana dogma haereticum.

[karpov89]

@brndurham Ja, anser du att den ekvaristiska bönen tyder på att den är ett benificium eller ett sacrificium? Do you think that the eucharistic prayer in this mass suggest the eucharist is a benificium or sacrificium?

[brndurham]

@karpov89 Tja, i den tyska eller latinska versioner av Luthers Formula Missae, jag har aldrig hört några referenser till ett sacrificium. Även de anglikanska och amerikanska Methodist liturgier föreslår ett offer, medan denna massa inte.

Allt jag hörde var Herrens bön, förordet, och instiftelseorden precis innan måltiden ... men ingen offret böner.

[karpov89]

@brndurham Du kan läsa texten, you can read the whole text, so you do not need to listen (visa mer - show more).

[brndurham]

@karpov89 Va? vad menar du? Vilken texten?

huh? what do you mean? What text?

[brndurham]

@karpov89 Luther elimineras helt Canon av samlas när han reformerade sin liturgi.

[Menechem]

Now is this Church a true Lutheran Church, or are they like many branches of Lutheranism, liberal and Bible twisting?

[skitter97]

ok. i study religion...and i am only 14... and the catholic church is the first followers of christ......

[umaara100]

I hope that one day the catholic church ,the orthodox church and all the liturgical churches can come together.By the way this is beautiful.

[umaara100]

Remember,whereever christ is so is the Catholic Church.That dose not just mean the Roman Church.It means all the traditions where Christ is present.Lets learn to love one another.

[EstateManor]

Is it not a wonder and a joy to know that Jesus is the reason for our prayers?

[MegaBakerskater]

i think all forms of christianity are all full of shit.and dont say i dont have experience or knowledge of christianity cauyse i was raised a roman catholic and i renounce the roman faith as well as all forms of christianity.what kind of god wants either an animal sacrafice or a human sacrifice?a barbaric god thats who!jesus cannot save your soul he knows your souls cannot be saved!christians trade being slaves to animality to being SLAVES to god.being a slave to anything sucks.especially to god

[dschellberg]

The Catholic Church is NOT the original Christian church. It's a mixing of early Christianity with Roman culture and paganism. Luther, thank God, was able to clean up the church of many of its Roman Catholic heresies. By the way, the faith is passed through the ages not by apostolic succession, but by the proclamation of the Gospel message.

[karpov89]

@dschellberg Well I do not agree with you; you are simply wrong about that. There are no heresies of the Catholic church, just another way to express things. And the true Lutheran church do retain the Apostolic succession, or at least parts of it.

[garciadelacadena]

@karpov89 The Catholic Church IS NOT JUST another way to express things, the Catholic Church is the only true Church, the only way to salvation.

[Reazzurro90]

@dschellberg

All the Scandinavian Lutheran churches claim apostolic succession.

[karpov89]

@Reazzurro90 That is not true. Especially the Danish church reject it and Swedish bishops are not allowed to lay the hands of a Danish bishop electus so that he would not be infected with the disease of Apostolic succession. Only retaining the apostolic faith is of importance.

[MaestroInfernus]

@dschellberg WRONG!!!! luther butchered the biblical txtx extacting gospels from the old testiment, then adding words to the new, then broke his vows of chastity which he made to god and impreganted a run away nun before being wed, then made a church in his own name!!!!!! Death to the protestants Convert recant or die.

[garciadelacadena]

@dschellberg Luther is a heretic who wanted to destroy the Sacred Mass (he was one of the several heretics during the protestant reform).

I am sure he would be glad to see how his wish has been accomplished with the Novus Ordo, I am perplexed to see how similar both false rites are.

The Catholic Church is the one that still celebrates the Latin Mass (dates back all the way to the 3rd century), believes in God truths and teaches Christian moral.

AMDG

[brndurham]

@garciadelacadena

ahem... you do realize the eucharisitc prayers for the "Novus Ordo" Mass were based almost completely from the early eucharisitc liturgies, right? Are you calling liturgies like that of St. Hippolytus and St. Justin Martyr invalid simply because they didn't have specific enough sacrificial language? Well, there goes all eucharistic liturgies of the early church, since jesus didn't hand the apostles the entire 1560 missale romanum in latin.

[garciadelacadena]

@brndurham Nope, I am calling the Novus Ordo Mass invalid because:

1. The formula of the consecration changed, therefore the consecrations doesn't happen .

2. A Mason was the creator of the Rite, and it's clearly how the man is exalted over God.

The list is long, these are just a couple of issues (the first is the big one). I would suggest to research the issue by yourself.

God Bless.

Garcia de la cadena

[brndurham]

@garciadelacadena

Romans 5:12:

For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many."

If Christ died only for many, and could not mean all, we would have scripture contradicting Trent, which as faithful Catholics understand, is not possible.

Second, the aramaic word for 'many' meant 'an undefined multitude' or 'the all who are many'. Don't give the 'pro vobis et pro multis' stuff.

[brndurham]

@garciadelacadena On the contrary, scripture and tradition teach unhesitatingly that Christ died for all men. No doubt the efficaciousness of the redemption will not save all men, but it is scripture and Church doctrine that Christ died for all:

He is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.(1 John 2:2)

For as in Adam ALL DIE, so also in Christ shall ALL BE made alive"(1 Cor. 15:22);

[garciadelacadena]

@brndurham You didn't address any of my points.

[Menechem]

@dschellberg Well said!

[johnross12]

Lutherans lost the faith of the apostles, which includes the sacrificial nature of the priesthood testified to by the fathers. The Orthodox have a similar view of Lutheran holy orders.

The Church of Sweden and the Church of England have a material succession of bishops, but they lack the sacramental succession.

[karpov89]

@johnross12 They do not consider the priesthood sacrifical but the eucharist is considered a true sacrifice though.

[johnross12]

@johnross12 Christ is the priest, victim, and sacrifice made present in the Mass through the power of the Holy Spirit in the person of the priest. This belief was universal in Christendom prior to the advent of Protestantism.

Luther rejected this mystery because he could not grasp it in his mortal mind. I was raised a Lutheran and left after I read the Fathers.

[karpov89]

@johnross12 According to Lutheran faith a sacrifice is presented trough the prayers and offerings (collect, bread and wine) and in return Jesus Christ is given us as a living sacrifice in the consecrated bread and wine.

[johnross12]

@karpov89 The difference between Catholic/Orthodox/Patristic thought and Lutheran thought on this is that Lutherans places the act of faith of the believer over the objective reality of the sacrament.

Lutherans reject the notion that grace is commended ex opere operato, which the ancient Eastern Churches share in common with the Latin Catholics.

[karpov89]

@johnross12 Yes mainstream Lutherans reject that, it is true.

[parpaillotcamisard]

@johnross12

sorry , but the only and true apostolic succession is of a spiritual nature .

The Roman Catholic and Orthodox dogmas concerning this alledged material " succession " is heretic and toally opposed th the Evangelical Message , in which evering is spiritual and spiritual only .

In other terms , all Protestant Churches are truly Christian , because they believe in the Holy Spirit and its spiritual manifestations ...

[MaestroInfernus]

@parpaillotcamisard Herecy!!!! The Church is of one mind one heart and one soul, the catholic church is one all others cannot even agree withthemselves, therefore God denounces them, the truth is in the roots and the only church to maintain closest to the root is the Roman catholic faith, with the original bible and original rituals, Orthodox must bow tro the head patriach, and protestants must recant and punish themselves before being cleansed to attain the holiness and wisdom of God. AMEN

[johnross12]

Lutherans lost apostolic succession after the Protestant Revolution.

[karpov89]

@johnross12 Yes in the Catholic sense of view; as it is not enough that a Roman Catholic bishop consecrated the first Lutheran archbishop in Sweden.

[liebschen851]

To all of you, as a Lutheran, we do not have to get to heaven by doing good deeds it is given to us by Grace alone. God is the one who judges you. You honor God by doing good deeds.

[hahnbd]

The State Lutheran Church in Europe is a dead church, which is truly sad as is the Roman Catholic church as the Pope is the great whore that rides the beast and prostitutes the Church to foreign gods.

[karpov89]

@hahnbd There is no "State Lutheran Church in Europe". The problem with the Lutheran Churches in America is the lack of episcopality.

[AliciaRdlo]

@hahnbd Gosh, this is why i despise most evangelicals... They spend nost of their time warming up the chuches' benches instead of making something useful, like preaching to those they think are so wrong!! If Christianity is not dead in Europe is thanks to the Catholic Church!! The protestant church in general is a shame and a scandal!! I ain't no Catholic, but I'm not as ignorant playing the cultivated saviour of the worls as you!! I hope u don't meet in hell as many as u condemned!!

[hahnbd]

@AliciaRdlo To say that the State Church is dead isn't implying that those who go are damned. It's implying that the State Churches in Europe have gone the way of the Pope in Rome, and has beome a nominal church. When I saw this video, I simply marveled at the eucharist, while reflecting on the fact that churches has become an empty vessel of ritual without faith. My criticism may have been harsh, but your words, "warming up the churches' benches" is a criticism I also make of these churches.

[hahnbd]

(I should also state that American churches have this problem too.)

[karpov89]

@hahnbd I think that there are no state churches in Europe but the Evangelical Lutheran folk churches of Norway, Denmark and Iceland + the Evangelical Lutheran church and Finnish Orthodox Church in Finland.

By the way there were a group of young people from the ECLA in America visiting this high mass.

[hahnbd]

@karpov89 Things have changed over the years. At one time, (as early as 2000 for Sweden), Sweden, Norway, Germany, and Denmark had state churches. I believe they still have church taxes. The issue I see is that in the age of "democracy" et al. people have been confused into thinking that we can vote on doctrine and change the faith to fit our culture. When it happens at the top, watering down the faith, I can't help but wonder if we've lost the Gospel again.

[karpov89]

@hahnbd I can only answer for Sweden: Members pay a church fee (not a tax) but it is deducted from your wages like a tax. Non members pay funeral fee which is only a part of the church fee.

[hahnbd]

@karpov89 And so you know, the ELCA is a political church body in America. Some have said they are neither Evangelical nor Lutheran and can hardly be called a Church in the catholic sense.

[karpov89]

@hahnbd But there is no federal "Act of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America", hence political I think?!

[hahnbd]

@karpov89 With American Democracy, there has been an awkward side-effect on the role of a church. Today, many church bodies behave like lobbyists. This is what I mean by the ELCA being a political church body. Unlike their predecessor church bodies, the ELCA formed in the late 80s as a pseudo-Church/Social institution that tries to assert it's role in governmental policy. (ELCA is anti-Israel for example.) Because of this, their mission is often clouded, because one cannot tell who Jesus is.

[karpov89]

@hahnbd The main problem is that ECLA is not ruled by consecrated bishops.

[hahnbd]

@karpov89 In the American context, do you think if they had consecrated bishops, it would stop their heresies?

[karpov89]

@hahnbd The lobbyists would be no good bishops I guess. But the church is where the bishop is.

[istgone]

@karpov89 The ELCA is ruled by consecrated bishops. Since entering into full communion with the Episcopal (Anglican) Church, all our bishops are consecrated by three bishops in the Apostolic Succession. I do not support what they have done in recent times, but they are still properly ordained bishops.

[karpov89]

@istgone Yes I know about the agreement with the Episcopalian Church in recent years and that is good. But the pastors are not consecrated?!

[istgone]

@karpov89 Actually, the pastors are consecrated by the bishops who are in Apostolic Succession, so the pastors arre properly ordained as well. So are our deacons.

[karpov89]

@istgone Yes, but I meant the older pastors and deacons, appointed before the agreement with the Episcopalian church. So when will the bishops start using the mitre and crosier and cope (when not celebrating the mass)?

[istgone]

@karpov89 Ah... well in that case, I can't really comment.

As for mitres, croziers, and copes, I know of at least two ELCA diocesean bishops who wear the mitre, most bishops that I have seen wear the cope, and I believe that many of them are given croziers at ordination.

[StockburnDeputy]

I've heard reports on how religion is extremely unpopular in Scandanavia. Younger people marry only because of inheritance laws. It's so sad. I'm glad that not all Europeans have ditched the Lord and church.

[karpov89]

Well what you have heard is totally wrong, nonsense. It is basically not true what you have heard.

[StockburnDeputy]

I hope it's not true, but so many statistics show how religion, traditional family and marriage have been on a steep decline in Scandanavia, in Sweden in particular. I hope they're wrong and I am happy to see this beautiful video of Swedish liturgy, though I cannot understand a word of it.

[karpov89]

Well can you state exactly what source of the statistics you are talking about?! It has not been an issue in Scandinavia anyway, on the contrary marriage in church is getting more popular, also the attitude towards abortion is getting more negative.

Nice to hear you like the liturgy, you can see a translation in English to the right.

[StockburnDeputy]

I should have known better. I read about it in a newspaper article, plus it's mentioned in news magazine shows. But the media in our country are so anti-tradition and anti-Christian and celebrate anything that defies any morality or Judeo-Christian ideals. I should have known better. Thank you for your refreshing and positive perspective. You know the real story as you live there.

[JoeNYCBoi]

I've also read the same thing about Scandinavian indifference to religion, that people go to church mostly for social events like weddings, funerals, etc.

Wikipedia has an article called "Religion in Sweden" that even offers statistics: less than 4% of members go to services in any given week, and about 2% go regularly.

I'm glad to hear this may not be true. Scandinavian Christianity has a unique and rich liturgical tradition that should be passed down, and I'm glad we can see it here.

[nuduaspiaggia]

@StockburnDeputy All that is good and holy will return to these societies when they once again embrace the holy Catholic Church.

[karpov89]

@nuduaspiaggia Christianus mihi nomen est, Catholicus cognomen!

[nuduaspiaggia]

@karpov89 Et Lutheranus haeresis est.

[karpov89]

@nuduaspiaggia What I told you is an old Lutheran saying.

[nuduaspiaggia]

@karpov89 What I told you is the truth. Lutheranism is heresy.

[karpov89]

@nuduaspiaggia So you say.

[nuduaspiaggia]

@karpov89 To say otherwise is to deny the full message of Christ.

[mleonetti1991]

@nuduaspiaggia dude i am a catholic, but i respect any christian denomination, especially the Lutheran church, whose foundation and beliefs are similar to that of the catholic church.

[nuduaspiaggia]

@mleonetti1991 Then respect them enough to tell them their beliefs are contrary to Christ and are incapable of leading to salvation. There is no salvation outside the Church.

[karpov89]

@nuduaspiaggia There are no salvation outside the Church of Christ, that is correct.

[nuduaspiaggia]

@karpov89 Only the Catholic Church was established by Christ. All other "Churches" are false.

[karpov89]

@nuduaspiaggia The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

[nuduaspiaggia]

@karpov89 Indeed, and to be Lutheran is to be outside this Church. To be anything but Catholic means to exclude oneself from the true Church.

[739richard]

@nuduaspiaggia Sad to see comments like this. The Roman and Lutheran churches have been working together for many years to overcome differences - this has bourne fruit in the joint declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by Faith part of which is that both sides agreed to lift their mutual condemnations of each other. Agreement on Eucharistic belief is very close. True Lutherans and RCs should refrain from calling their brothers and sisters heretics.

[nuduaspiaggia]

@739richard This is not true. The Joint Declaration on Justification was the acceptance, by one variant of Lutheranism, of the Catholic doctrine. The vast majority of Lutherans remain in heresy and it is far sadder that Catholics today do not care enough about their Lutheran friends and neighbors to save them from eternal damnation.

[739richard]

@nuduaspiaggia I wonder if you have read the Joint Declaration? In fact the World Lutheran Federation representing 70 of the 75 million Lutherans subscribe.

[nuduaspiaggia]

@739richard I have read it. Subscription to one Catholic doctrine will not save these heretics, although they are getting closer to the right path.

[karpov89]

@nuduaspiaggia The Church of Christ is not the Roman Catholic Church but the Chuch of Christ subsist in the Roman Catholic Church

[nuduaspiaggia]

@karpov89 Learn Latin. "Subsistit in" demonstrates a deep and unitive existence, not simply "living in." No one can go to heaven without first being Catholic, which is achieved either by the ordinary means of baptism or extraordinarily by divine intervention.

[karpov89]

@nuduaspiaggia The Roman Catholic Church acknowledges baptism in other Christian denominations. But you can go to heaven without being confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church.

[nuduaspiaggia]

@karpov89 We recognize only certain baptisms (Trinitarian) and although you can enter heaven without Confirmation, you cannot enter heaven as anything but a true Catholic. This means a good Lutheran cannot go to heaven because by his actions he has rejected Christ and His Church.

[karpov89]

@nuduaspiaggia I know what it means. Kristi kyrka förverkligas i den katolska kyrkan.

[lichtbroeder]

@nuduaspiaggia I miss many things about the old Catholic Church, but I will NEVER miss the prejudice and arrogance that traditionalists like you display. God gave us traditions and laws. He also gave us reason, common sense, and hearts. You're not a good Catholic if you "follow all the rules" but lack charity, and if you lack charity, then pray for "heretics" quietly. Plenty of "good Catholics" who lacked charity are likely in hell, even though they had all the answers - like you do.

[JonUjan]

so many empty seats.... its time you guys arise and get radical for Christ!

[karpov89]

Well church attendance is low in Sweden, but on this mass there where not so few people, sitting behind me.

[Maxidparke]

I am not protestant, I am catholic and I see the church conserve the christian Tradicion of the mass obviously there is a difference with the catholic teology. Nice video, congratulations.

[karpov89]

Thank you very much! Yes, you are right there a difference in theology, especially according to the official position of the church

[karpov89]

This is high church, charismatic, lutheran liturgy. The Church of Sweden is an episcopal church which has retained the historic apostolic succession and is in communion with the Anglican communion, has ordanied bishops, priests and deacons. Liturgy of the mass is very similar I think. Many lutherans do the sign of the cross, and more and more other christians (like baptists) in Sweden do it too.

[midnightatutopia]

It appears to be very similar to our Eurcharist, in the Anglican & Episcopal church... do Lutherans make the sign of the cross?

[shark96z]

Yes we do.