KARLHEINZ STOCKHAUSEN Helicopter String Quartet Arditti Quar

[boudourakiss]

one word: pretentious

[jaspernatchez]

My new string quartet is called the Fartstringquartet. Cello makes bass farts, viola tenor farts, first violin makes soprano farts, and second violin makes wet farts.

[swans1997]

@jaspernatchez Flatunata Sonata.

[GuidoKaiserBariton1]

Bei Stock ist kein Ding unmöglich.....

[fremsley001]

Takes bullshit to new heights.

[jaynogg]

@fremsley001 lets see you do that then!

[FenderRhodesService]

Stocky flies on !!!

[I1see1y]

Stockhausen soll sich in seinen blütenarsch ficken.So tief ,dass es weh tut.

Dieser Vollhonk soll meine Scheisse fressen und meine Pisse trinken.

[Mrspitzfink]

das will ich ja nicht bezweifeln, dass seine musik in sich hochkomplex und durchgearbeitet ist.. Trotzdem entsteht bei mir halt kein suchtfaktor. Geräusche sind ja in ihrer struktur auch hochkomplex, genauso wie das rattern eines hubschraubers.....aber muss ich mir das deswegen dann ne halbe stunde lang anhören, um dann am Ende mit einem netten "das war ja interressant" abzuschließen?Dann lieber Aphex Twin und Hardcore-Electro, dann kann man wenigstens abgehen...

[Mrspitzfink]

na ja, gänsehaut bekomm ich nicht, wenn ich mir das helikopter streichquartett anhöre....höchstens angst, dass der hubschrauber abstürzt.. was soll nun das geniale an seiner Musik sein? Irgendwann geht einem das Geratter nur noch auf die Nerven. Mag sein, dass er für sich in seiner Welt genial war. Man muss ja auch nicht drüber urteilen. Nur Stockhausen weiss, ob er uns alle verarscht hat oder nicht. Falls er uns verarscht hat ist es nur peinlich für die,die ihn vergöttern oder zumindest so tun

[TektonicRichy]

@Mrspitzfink bei seiner musik gibt es doch nicht die frage ob verarsche oder nicht. Stockhausen hat wie viele andere auch ein hochkomplexe technick angewandt, um diese musik zu produzieren. Hinter all diesen Liedern gibt es eine raffinierte Struktur, da gibt es keinen zeweifel. Zugang zu solcher Musik hat nur der, der diese Musik" versteht". Noch mag ich solche musik nicht, aber ich bin mir sicher, je mehr ich über diese hochkomplexe musikart erfahre, desto mehr weis ich sie zu schätzen.

[mkatzlinger]

es is ned mal frage des verstehens, obwohls das interessanter macht, es verstehen ja auch ned alle leut die hintergründe der diatonischen musik, trotzdem gefällt sie ihnen. ich durchschau stockhausens musik nur beschränkt und trotzdem finde ich zb das klavierstück X einfach schön. es ist nur gewöhnungssache.

verarsche würd ich eher der musikindustrie vorwerfen die menschen geld aus der tasche zieht für musik die man ohne großen geistigen und finanziellen aufwand auch selbst produzieren könnte.

[composerpoet]

Yes.

[idealtypical]

Entschuldigung bitte, aber I find this to be deeply moving and incredibly beautiful.

[iwannabeyourdog90]

der Mann ist ganz kreativ, aber ich finde ihn auch etwas tragisch als Menschen, es wundert mich, dass er selbst in späteren Jahren sich nicht wandelte, normalerweise macht man mit dem alter automatisch zugänglichere musik, aber er kritisierte andere Künstler zudem, ich verstehe die faszination für musik völlig, aber nicht wie jemand glücklich sein kann, wenn er ausschließlich seine eigene welt mit musik beschreibt, ohne sich groß zu öffnen

[iwannabeyourdog90]

ich persönlich glaube, dass bei allem religiösen bezug den S. oft seinen werken andachte dennoch etwas anderes dahintersteckt. Ich schätze seine Kindheit ohne Vater und das Umfeld der NS Zeit haben einen Menschen aus ihm gemacht hat, der nicht anders konnte als sich durch musik raum und freiheit zu verschaffen, ich meine experimentelle musik ist ja durchaus sinnvoll, aber wer bis ins hohe alter sich zurückkzieht und stets nur seine eigenen ideen anerkennt, entflieht ein stück weit der realität

[transfixedtornado]

die Aufnahme hört sich leider sehr schlecht an.

Stockhausen auf CD pressen geht halt nur sehr bedingt, gerade mit so einem Stück, dass man ganz und gar vor Ort erleben muß.

Ich glaube daß die eigentliche beudeutung von dem was Stockhausen gemacht hat erst später rauskommen wird - im Moment wollen die Leute halt noch 'Musik' hören... aber die Realität ist tiefer, und vieles was uns als Kind im Spiel zugänglich war ist nun unter all der 'Vernunft' begraben.

Stocky ist wertvoll.

[koenigseggfan3]

Ich mag seine musik.weil ich sie interessant finde.trozdem versteh ich nicht warum viele leute ihn so vergöttern und die musik sooo besonders finden.was ist den soooo toll an der musik?... ich meine das nicht als kritik sondern nur als frage.

ich hab die musik einfach noch nicht richtig erfasst und würde mich dafür interessieren was leute die die musik lieben denn daran lieben...

[SoernBabbat]

Einfach nur schrecklich - Just terrible

Und das sind keine "neuen Ideen" das is einfach nur bescheuert. Und sowas wird mit tausenden von euros gefördert... Könnte man auch besser anlegen

[TheMCMXXL]

@SoernBabbat Und was ich "nicht bescheuert"? Mainstream-Musik, die sich nur daraus entwickelt, indem der eine vom anderen klaut und man sich mit Millionenbeträgen bezahlen lässt? Super, richtig kreativ und intelligent, muß man sagen. Ist dir eigentlich schon einmal aufgefallen, das sich die ganze Gesellschaft in diese Richtung entwickelt hat?? Die letzten 30 Jahre waren von der geistigen Leistung her gesehen das mieseste, was die Menschheit je hervorgebracht hat.

[Kuehdorf]

@SoernBabbat Schön, dass immer noch Sachen gefördert werden, die nicht der Generalmeinung von Millionen entsprechen - Schönheit ist ein individueller, freiheitlicher Begriff, der nicht von oben herab - und schon gar nicht vom Staat festgelegt- und dementsprechend verallgemeinernd gefördert werden sollte!

[hardweird]

Man kann sagen was man will, aber was er hier sagt, ist die Essenz eines jeden musischen Schaffens...es gibt keine Grenzen....man ist frei...und der karlheinz....war sich dessen nicht nur bewußt....nein er wußte auch etwas mit der Freiheit anzufangen. Ich mag die meißte von seiner Musik nicht.....aber....er war jemand der einfach gemacht hat, ohne großartig zu hinterfragen, ohne sich an Konventionen und Meinungen zu halten.....und dafür bekommt er meinen größten Respekt!

[eyekillpainis]

word! cracka'

[annedegro]

@Idealbastard Why this hatred?

[Idealbastard]

Sorry, didn't intend to be disrespectful.

It was just a joke.

[cudrlo]

No man, Fuck you.& your mother.

[Idealbastard]

lol

[aggrorulz]

This is awful!! Listen to Chopin for the love of God!!

[crocoweep]

Kalle Kralle Rockt!

[herma57]

Karlheinz Wo bist du?

[herma57]

Karlheinz Wo bist Du. . . .

[rumpwrestler]

Karlheinz, you really are a bore. No way around that one.

[llM5Xll]

Die Musik versteh' ich nicht.

I don't understand this kind of music.

[goshnje]

man explained, he just wanna make his music fly... :)

[englishdave250]

pure genius

[richtomes]

Why does KS's Electric Toothbrush Symphony receive less exposure than his HSQ ? Just because helicopters are more spectacular than culinary utensils the Kitchen Blender Quartet gets left on the shelf, along with the suites for unaccompanied pepper grinder and the etudes for prepared waste disposal unit. Have we learned nothing from JC ?

I despair. So few of today's audience are anywhere near to that state of suprahuman evolution necessary to be able to appreciate such leaps of genius.

[revions]

You have no fantasy. I pity you.

[revions]

Well non-existing works never get any attention.

You can't turn back time, even if you wanted that new technologies didn't influence the new generation of composers.

The works that KS did compose have reached a wide audience. One only has to think of all the composers, musicians and artists that he influenced. Ranging from the Beatles, Björk, Miles Davis to every contemporary composer. The seeds he planted there are still growing.

[richtomes]

Fortunately what can be planted can also be weeded.

[revions]

It never works. The nazis already tried it, but good art always survives.

[annedegro]

The whole music business hasn't noticed that this doesn't belong to the classical music tradition and all those shops sell these KS cds in the classical music department, that magazines about classical music write articles about KS, Nono, Ligeti and that classical trained musicians haven't noticed that they are playing music that has no classical quality at all.

Fight those windmills! You can do it.

You can change history! Just like Beethoven, Stravinsky and KS did

[DannyDaWriter]

You know, an electric toothbrush symphony would not be bad at all. I could just imagine the overtones created by a group of electric toothbrushes running, and some of the fascinating dissonances created by it.

I remember when I was younger I used to listen to my mother's Sonicare with much fascination as I heard the overtones created by the hum of the motor.

[telemacohomewwod]

john cage said

"i consider music the production of sound [...] i produce sound and call it music"

well ... try to produce your sound

smiles

[Keytaster]

das ist einfach nur bekloppt, nichts weiter. und dieser traum von seiner flugkunst zeigt nur wie sehr er von anderen bewundert werden möchte... vier geigen in hubschraubern... hirnrissig.

[konjunktion26]

also der ist verrückt. ein echter deutscher eben. deutschland ist genial. unsere musiker sind die besten. geil

[EgonSchiele2]

Como la mayoría de los genios: divina locura!!

Vive Stockhausen!

[bitachar]

Like this very much

[mymusicdiscovery]

It's good.

[fleabass6969]

I Fly in my dreams too :-)

[audiobuttmaster]

Krawehl, krawehl!

Taubtrüber Ginst am Musenhain.

Trübtauer Hain am Musenginst.

Krawehl, krawehl!

[queenoftatters]

That is an admirable statement on the part of john Cage, but have you ever tried to sit through the video of variations V? Experimentation is vital, and often fueled by genius, but the final result can land anywhere from fascinating to nails on a chalkboard. An idea being new doesn't make it better.

[annedegro]

"An idea being new doesn't make it better."

You are absolutely right.

But John Cage would never claim that a new idea is automatically better. He only would claim that a new idea is different.

It is up to the listener to decide what he wants to do with the new ideas

[queenoftatters]

This is true. But look at the quote again. "I'm afraid of the old ones." That does imply an aversion to all the ideas that aren't new, which wasn't uncommon for artists of the time. As I said experimentation is good but the results can be a little hard to take. This particular example was incredibly grating and the cleverness of it didn't really change that for me. Not saying it shouldn't exist, just that I'm not surprised it gets a negative reaction, genius or no. That's the test of the theory.

[annedegro]

It was a time in which it was even harder than nowadays to bring new ideas to a larger audience. When I read this quote it doesn't so much imply an aversion to old ideas as it is an expression of being afraid that because of the conservative nature of the tradition-loving audience new music doesn't get the attention it deserves.

[Shota871]

"I don't understand why people are afraid of new ideas. I'm afraid of the old ones." - John Cage

Well said, Mr. Cage. Maybe I should become a counterexample of those narrow-minded folks who doesn't tolerate such novel stuff.

[Francologne]

I can hardly bare such pretentiousness.

[dmartinp]

you could BEAR this if you went back to 2nd grade and studied your vocabulary

[Francologne]

Sorry for making a mistake in a language that is not my mother tongue.

[freddydiamant]

Let's face it: Stockhausen was a GENIUS! One of the greatest visionaries of all music. I don't know why musicians tend to overlook his later output and focus rather too much on his early works (at least up until Mantra). Who knows if we follow his footsteps, if we really can bring fresh new music not just sophisticated reworkings and recyclings of the past...

[dmartinp]

Agreed

[samdon815]

agreed

[gnubboleso]

scusatelo, la madre degli imbecilli è sempre in cinta :=)

sorry him, the mother of shame is ever pregnat.

[egapnala65]

Have now received the other two parts. This movement is just so gloriously eccentric from start to finish.

Completely goes against the rest of the opera, but who cares? It's hilarious.

[egapnala65]

Have just received the first three parts of "Mittwoch" and am awaiting the final 2 parts (including this) to arrive now. The opera is actually (like much of "Licht" profoundly ritualistic and meditational). I will be intrigued to see the liner notes for this.

I shall then have the complete "Licht" cycle!!

[xXmusicman007Xx]

OMG stcokhausen ROCKZ!"

[chrisly123]

But this 'music' wasn't made for the music. It was a breakthrough from the boundaries of everything that was ever made. And I agree with people below, its pushing people to understand the music rather than just listen to it. And to do that you must appreciate what this man did for music and how we percieve it today.

[Uruguruh]

It's not about comfortzones, it's just about good music.

Hey, if you like this shit, you're welcome!

I'd rather stick to Bartok and Shostakovitch, thank you.

[DannyDaWriter]

And what makes this not good music?

[Uruguruh]

What an idiot.

[Idealbastard]

You know what the problem is? This is labeled music, and people (like I do) have a certain opinion , what music is or should be... THIS is definetly something else.

[lukaszm1]

This music have to be haotic, just to let your brain 'fly away' just like Stockhausen said.

[ShearersArseHansen]

He's tone deaf,

He's got a fleet of helicopters at his beck and flippin' call,

He's, GO KARLHEINZ, GO HEINY, GO STOCKIEBABY,

He's the business in the cacofannie department!!,

...and that's a fact.......

[egapnala65]

And faced with the incomprehensible gibberish from the obvious "Mozart Fans" below, I would be more than happy to join you Stockhausen.

Guys,go and listen to "Eine Kleine" for 20,000,000th time, clutch your wine glasses and "Oh, how divine" to each other and give the rest of us a break.

[AlexMcgeryMusic]

Yes anybody who doesn't like this only listens to Eine Kleine...

You sound like a pretentious snob if I ever heard one, unsuprising then that you 'like' this.

[egapnala65]

Case in point.

I can actually listen to both Mozart and Stockhausen. Unlike yourself obviously.

Incidentally, check out Josef Myslevecek whilst your sipping your brandies. It's where most of Mozart came from. Not that the average Mozart fan would recognise the fact.

[egapnala65]

But then, having just seen your rather limited listening list, I can see why you don't go for Srtockhausen.

[AlexMcgeryMusic]

So the more music/noise you enjoy, the more musical you are? So people who enjoy listening to the sound of people screaming are automatically more musical than me?

Every composition is built around our total musical experience. In that respect you can't look down on Mozart based on the fact that his music was reminiscent of the music of the time, in the same way that you can't look down on Richard Dawkins for basing his scientific rationale on his predecessors!

[AlexMcgeryMusic]

Does a person who objects to nonsensical language have an inferior grasp of literature in comparison to somebody who prefers everything to make sense?

You like Stockhausen which is your opinion, and it doesn't automatically make your opinion more valid than a Mozart fan now does it?

[egapnala65]

It does when the said Mozart fan's opinion is based on nothing but 2 mins of music and a complete ignorance of another composer's compositional techniques.

Now I don't happen to think this particular scene from "Licht" is the best ("Lucifer's Farewell" knocks spots off it) but I do know what is actually going on here and why. It makes perfect sense to me. I even know why they are counting to 13. Do you?

That is because I have actually looked into Stockhausen's working methods. Have you?

[AlexMcgeryMusic]

Well I think that you'll find most Mozart fans don't actually fully comprehend what is happening in his music. I think it's a shame that somebody should write music that you need to 'understand', perform, or even read a book in order to appreciate.

Anyway, there is a big difference between understanding and liking. If a four year old likes the Planets is he automatically as musical as Gustav Holst?

[egapnala65]

And that sums up the problem with Mozart Fans rather well. Only the condition is not extended only to Mozart's music, nut music in general. Otherwise they would not be Mozart fans.

Your profile says you are a composer, so you hold that composers should be completely ignorant of musical techniques etc.?

I do realise that in a perfect world nothing more interesting than nursery rhymes would be available for musical consumers. However I do sometimes think a callenge is a good thing.Don'tyou?

[AlexMcgeryMusic]

Yes and I personally make myself listen to music that is challenging at least to me, or extremely harmonically adventurous as with many contemporary composers.

I didn't say that composers should be ignorant of musical techniques, but most certainly that people who listen to music do not want to go out of their way to understanding music theory.

I also think its perfectly possible to write music for oneself, and a great many people who have not studied music.

[egapnala65]

Well then i suggest you Google the words "Licht" "Superformula" and "Stockhausen" and then get back to me.

Ignorance is not a virtue, the Superformula technique may have its drawbacks but it is worth studying and looking into.

[egapnala65]

"Every musical composition is built around our total musical experience?"

Who says so? A composer can only write from their own experience. To claim that music has to speak to some lowest common denominator to be valid would have left us at the plainchant stage.

Now whilst that is clearly the case, it is also clear that said lowest common denominator believes it has the absolute right to come on here and look for composers they hate. Then bore the rest of us stupid with their ignorance.

[TheBlackPage1]

Well said! I also am of the opinion that many people who don't like this kind of music are generally just very ignorant about it and prefer to be in their Mozartian comfort-zones. Which is fine. And hey, they could all live on McDonalds for the rest of their life's, but there are some of us who want to explore the world of music and experience new things. We shouldn't be penalized for that..

[hmoy24677]

Totally true. Without avant garde, there is no evolution to the arts and sciences.

[zandax]

What people often forget is, that these noises are _easy_ to make. Turn some knobs on a synthesizer, record some things in downtown, whatever... It can be classified as "random".

Writing a classical symphony is way harder, believe me.

[hmoy24677]

FYI

I'm a composer myself of both, acoustic and electronic music, I have composed symphonic music several times, and both of them are equally difficult. And these noises are by no means "easy to make". It is way more than turning knobs.

[DannyDaWriter]

To proceed, however, one must take into account the history of music. That is what many avant-garde musicians have done — even Xenakis had to study traditional Western music theory, even if his music doesn't necessarily reflect this.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily call any new work "avant-garde" (I know you have not said this). There have been plenty of works that have propelled art evolution and yet were considered "good" (subjective, I know) by a majority.

[DannyDaWriter]

Before anyone calls me someone who dislikes this music, I'd be happy to report to you that I am very well appreciative of avant-garde music. I just don't appreciate all the hatred from some members of the movement, however, toward those who listen to tonal music as well. I enjoy both — one minute I listen to Vivaldi or Bach, and the next I listen to Xenakis or Ligeti, for example.

[DannyDaWriter]

At the same time, however, I don't appreciate people from the tonal side of the world barking at those who compose or appreciate the avante-garde. If you don't like it, so be it, but please do not insult us as if we were criminals!

[DannyDaWriter]

If one doesn't mind me making a side comment:

Is anyone else reminded of the Mac vs PC battles when one sees the arguments between traditional and avant-garde music?

[JM3tr]

Is Mac avant-garde and PC traditional?^^ and what's with platform independent software and wine, parallels and VM Ware? ;)

[DannyDaWriter]

Either computer could be applied to either avant-garde and traditional, I suppose. The point of the argument was to highlight the uselessness and lack of efficacy when debating over avant-garde and "traditionalist" music, much like the Mac/PC wars.

But it could work if you assigned the schools of thought those computers. I would suspect emulation software (or in the case of wine, DLLs made to create an environment for Win programs) to be polystylists, e.g. Alfred Schnittke.

[DannyDaWriter]

...and precisely why did this comment get down to a -3? All I did was explain a metaphor.

Seems a bit ironic when the rest of my posts are being upped.

[egapnala65]

Fine, the criticisms are levelled at people who ONLY listen to Mozart and Haydn (or the "greatest hits" of both, to be more precise) and then hold them as the sole archetype to which everything should conform.

[hmoy24677]

Couldn´t agree more. Quoting Schönberg: "there is still a lot to be written in C major".

[DannyDaWriter]

Is there any particular reason why my comments are receiving such low scores? I've said nothing particularly disparaging.

[annedegro]

@Danny, some people think you have to take a stand and see ugly music (like Xenakis, Ligeti and KS) as representing the bad things of the world we live in (unethical and unaesthetic), and beautiful tonal music as if it is composed by good people...

So they can't handle people that like you and me can enjoy both.

That might explain your low scores. I think your comments are well-balanced, so +1 ;-)

[DannyDaWriter]

You're using a grievously false dichotomy — simply because people are "Mozartian" doesn't necessarily mean they're completely hermited to only one period of music.

Don't get me wrong — I love the Helicopter Quartet and many other compositions by Stockhausen, but I don't necessarily think that someone who only listens to tonal music is secluding themselves from other music.

[NowMyPennysHaveRunOu]

I met that nice Mr Stockhausen in the street, and he quipped that he might be an appalling affront to art, the biggest mass-deception since the De Laurean motor, a monumentally pompous twat who hides his vacuity behind the German language and earnt a good living by making sounds an exploding toaster would be proud of, but....but.....but....but...

[FrankZappasButler]

I vividly remember Mr Stockhausen and Mr Zappa returning from the alehouse, full of good cheer and shouting about how they were both most assured as to the veracity of the claim that Milli Vanilli had been miming at the MTV awards....!

[egapnala65]

Really glad to see this posted. Humanises the guy beautifully.

[sequenzaVII]

Wow...