Yes it is necessary and being born again happens. John 3:3,5 - "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." This is a critically important argument for Protestants because it calls into question authority. Each Protestant denomination claims the same authority (Bible), but there is only one truth. Christ left a church to be pillar and foundation of truth. Which church? The original Christian Church - the Catholic church.
I would have to disagree with your opinion, because the criticism I posted on the side bar does well to explain that passage. You presuppose that being "born of water" means baptism, whereas you have to read it from a 1st century mindset, not a modern day understanding.
"At the core of John 3:5 is the metaphorical use of water in Judaism as a symbol of interior cleansing -- not a declaration that baptism is required to enter the Kingdom of God."
Well, that is just it. It is not my opion, it is RCC teaching. My opinion is human, falible and probably could be changed depending on which scholar or book I chose to listen to. Here rests the problem with Sola Sciptura. Baptism is a critical question - is it necessary for salvation or not? You are trusting your 'opinion' or 'interpretation' to get it right. 50/50 chance.
So you're saying anything the RCC teaches is infallible? Even if you want to pull out Sola Scriptura, someone /still/ has to interpret the text, form an opinion (individually or collectively), and teach it to others, whether it's the RCC or JP Holding; it doesn't matter. Thus, you have no choice but to form an opinion yourself, and the odds are definitely better than 50/50 if you weigh all options against each other instead of letting your mind slide into dogmatism.
I am not trying to go of course and discuss infalibility (another suject). Lets just stick with Protestant side of things. I don't know for sure but for arguments sake lets say 1/2 say baptism is necessary and 1/2 say it is not. Both base this on the same authority (Bible). I say 50/50 and maybe the ratio is different. My point is that how can the same authority produce this split? There is only one truth.
I don't believe it is a relativistic issue either, since as you said, the Bible is the only authority, and there is only one truth. However it must be interpreted properly, and opinions are formed. Hence the purpose of this video: to find the correct "opinion". For one opinion to be held over another however, it must withstand scholarly criticism. And to me, so far a "non-necessity" view is winning. *shrugs*
Well, I didn't say that the Bible is the only authority - I said the differing Protestant views are based on the same authority. I would argue the Bible can not the only authority. If it is the only authority you end up having to say "I am interpreting it right and you are interpretign it wrong". If the Church has Christ-given authority also, then we do not have this delima. We are given this gift from God so we can know important 'truths' from scipture.
It is not about winning - just finding truth. We are all part of the body of Christ and each of us looses if we loose someone from that body. We are all in this together in Christ. The older son thought he won too - but the only victory is when the prodigal son returns.
Yea - I realize that now that I reread - sorry. Seems though, that you are weighing each side from a scholarly standpoint. Typically fine, but trusting your salvation to human scholorship seems like a big risk. Yes, the RCC is based on 'human' means as well, but it is backed up by 2000 years of teaching, tradition and scholorship. I choose to put my trust in that over my own ability to read, listen to the right scholors/sources, and decide for myself.
Haha well, I was baptized almost two years ago, so whether I'm correct or not, I am certain of my salvation; if I'm mistaken, I trust God as my provider to open my heart to the truth.
I don't want this to sound insulting (as it's not directed towards any person group in particular), but I typically don't go with general consensus stuff myself, because hypothetically, if you get 200 idiots that all decide on the same thing, they're still wrong in the end.
Could not agree more with the 200 idiot thing! I can think of many modern issues falling into that catergory. I have enjoyed this exchange - by grace hopefully we all come to the truth and will of God. Don't exclude RCC from your search/study. Once you get past misunderstandings it is amazingly rich and full of grace. God bless.
Good question and I appreciate the fact that you care to know. Ask the questions "What is baptism for and what are the results of baptism as given in scripture?" Second, two kinds of works are mentioned in scripture. Baptism is NOT a work of merit or of earning salvation. Rather it's a work of obedience due to the faith one has. Repentence, Faith, Hearing, Confessing that Christ is the son of God are all works but not of merit or earning salvaion. Same with baptism. Yes to ur question.
this was very interesting
Lesli2 2 years ago
Yes it is necessary and being born again happens. John 3:3,5 - "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." This is a critically important argument for Protestants because it calls into question authority. Each Protestant denomination claims the same authority (Bible), but there is only one truth. Christ left a church to be pillar and foundation of truth. Which church? The original Christian Church - the Catholic church.
jwmcelroy 3 years ago
I would have to disagree with your opinion, because the criticism I posted on the side bar does well to explain that passage. You presuppose that being "born of water" means baptism, whereas you have to read it from a 1st century mindset, not a modern day understanding.
"At the core of John 3:5 is the metaphorical use of water in Judaism as a symbol of interior cleansing -- not a declaration that baptism is required to enter the Kingdom of God."
BondSlaveSoldier 3 years ago
Well, that is just it. It is not my opion, it is RCC teaching. My opinion is human, falible and probably could be changed depending on which scholar or book I chose to listen to. Here rests the problem with Sola Sciptura. Baptism is a critical question - is it necessary for salvation or not? You are trusting your 'opinion' or 'interpretation' to get it right. 50/50 chance.
jmcelroy 3 years ago
So you're saying anything the RCC teaches is infallible? Even if you want to pull out Sola Scriptura, someone /still/ has to interpret the text, form an opinion (individually or collectively), and teach it to others, whether it's the RCC or JP Holding; it doesn't matter. Thus, you have no choice but to form an opinion yourself, and the odds are definitely better than 50/50 if you weigh all options against each other instead of letting your mind slide into dogmatism.
BondSlaveSoldier 3 years ago
I am not trying to go of course and discuss infalibility (another suject). Lets just stick with Protestant side of things. I don't know for sure but for arguments sake lets say 1/2 say baptism is necessary and 1/2 say it is not. Both base this on the same authority (Bible). I say 50/50 and maybe the ratio is different. My point is that how can the same authority produce this split? There is only one truth.
jmcelroy 3 years ago
I don't believe it is a relativistic issue either, since as you said, the Bible is the only authority, and there is only one truth. However it must be interpreted properly, and opinions are formed. Hence the purpose of this video: to find the correct "opinion". For one opinion to be held over another however, it must withstand scholarly criticism. And to me, so far a "non-necessity" view is winning. *shrugs*
BondSlaveSoldier 3 years ago
Well, I didn't say that the Bible is the only authority - I said the differing Protestant views are based on the same authority. I would argue the Bible can not the only authority. If it is the only authority you end up having to say "I am interpreting it right and you are interpretign it wrong". If the Church has Christ-given authority also, then we do not have this delima. We are given this gift from God so we can know important 'truths' from scipture.
jmcelroy 3 years ago
It is not about winning - just finding truth. We are all part of the body of Christ and each of us looses if we loose someone from that body. We are all in this together in Christ. The older son thought he won too - but the only victory is when the prodigal son returns.
jmcelroy 3 years ago
I meant "winning" metaphorically speaking, not that it's actually some contest. : o
BondSlaveSoldier 3 years ago
Yea - I realize that now that I reread - sorry. Seems though, that you are weighing each side from a scholarly standpoint. Typically fine, but trusting your salvation to human scholorship seems like a big risk. Yes, the RCC is based on 'human' means as well, but it is backed up by 2000 years of teaching, tradition and scholorship. I choose to put my trust in that over my own ability to read, listen to the right scholors/sources, and decide for myself.
jwmcelroy 3 years ago
Haha well, I was baptized almost two years ago, so whether I'm correct or not, I am certain of my salvation; if I'm mistaken, I trust God as my provider to open my heart to the truth.
I don't want this to sound insulting (as it's not directed towards any person group in particular), but I typically don't go with general consensus stuff myself, because hypothetically, if you get 200 idiots that all decide on the same thing, they're still wrong in the end.
BondSlaveSoldier 3 years ago
Could not agree more with the 200 idiot thing! I can think of many modern issues falling into that catergory. I have enjoyed this exchange - by grace hopefully we all come to the truth and will of God. Don't exclude RCC from your search/study. Once you get past misunderstandings it is amazingly rich and full of grace. God bless.
jmcelroy 3 years ago
Haha yeah, exactly! xD
I have enjoyed it as well, thank you for your input, I really do appreciate it. : )
Take care and God bless you.
BondSlaveSoldier 3 years ago
Good question and I appreciate the fact that you care to know. Ask the questions "What is baptism for and what are the results of baptism as given in scripture?" Second, two kinds of works are mentioned in scripture. Baptism is NOT a work of merit or of earning salvation. Rather it's a work of obedience due to the faith one has. Repentence, Faith, Hearing, Confessing that Christ is the son of God are all works but not of merit or earning salvaion. Same with baptism. Yes to ur question.
olesamule 3 years ago
I guess my way of thinking is, "Jesus commanded me to do it. So I'd darn well better!"
But as for it being necessary to be saved... hmm.
Tricky!! :)
You got me thinking!
bekkynixon 3 years ago