Your historical research and analysis is quite impressive. Future generations of curious minds will indeed prosper from this reference that you've created. Never the less, I can't help but agree with gierich2. Your drumming is very underwhelming. Your next video could be on Rick Allen, as it's probably best for you to abstain from playing with your left appendage.
I saw Max from the front row @ Magic Bag back in the 90's...olny dissappointment was in how often he dropped/lost his sticks...but I ate up the performance nonetheless. thanks Doc...very informative
How much of Max's style was derived from Jo Jones, Sid Catlett and even Chick Webb? I read that Jo Jones and Big Sid were dropping bombs and using more color around the kit in the early 1940's. I am sure Max and Kenny Clarke just advanced this approach to fit the revolutionary music of Parker and Gillespie. Speaking of Rich, which swing drummer do you feel best adapted to bop? I read that Dave Tough really appreciated the new form.
Max always acknowledged Jo, Sid and Clarke as his influences, but he took everything one or even two or three steps beyond anything they did by bringing the drums into the front line. Innovation always builds on the past. See the Modern Drummer tribute to Max.
As for swing drummers into bop, not many. J.C Heard, Doc can't think of his last name, both recorded with Bird, as did Big Sid. The time feel is very different. Not many swing players could play bop.
Hmmm....sounds like it could be Don Lamond you're referring to. I would love to take your course. I wish I lived up that way. Keep posting stuff on youtube.
This video is incredible and incredibly helpful to me as a drummer. I have always despised drum solos for the very reasons you've stated: They are mostly about technique. I got so tired of all my peers wanting to play the fastest or like Neil Peart, Terry Bozzio, and Mike Portnoy to name a few. While I like those drummers and can definitely appreciate their styles, I always preferred drumming more in the Charlie Watts, Max Weinberg vein. And, of course, Art Blakey and Max Roach. Thanks!
ha! Thats my favourite saying...Best said by Sly Stone...I suppose thats what makes jazz so great. 'spose ile take a good listen to Roach n Cattlett then..
Ah here now...Ok, Granted Buddy is my favourit drummer & it wud apear dat I wud b biased toward him,but 4 gud reason! I hav listend 2 many of his recordings ovr & ovr agen.His solos Do hold context to the music being played, but they're SOLOS,% its improv.Altho I can't change your opinion i ask you 2 challenge it yourself by listening 2 any Buddy recording,carefuly note his licks and phrasing thru/out, compare this to his solos.you'l find dat the solo is in line with the licks and phrased alike.
We can certainly agree to disagree. But my point is that a drum solo should reflect the over all musical context and Rich does not do that. Indeed 90% of drum solos do not do that. His phrasing in his solos has nothing to do with what the band had been playing.
That is why I prefer drummers like Sid Cattlett and Max Roach who always think of the melody of the song when they solo.
But as they say, with a good drummer's pun, different strokes for different folks.
That is correct. Rich's solos were never about the musical context and always about his technique. That is why I think he is the worst thing that ever happened to jazz drumming.
Listen to how the music stops when he solos, and all of his solos are the same---speed and flash but no music.
sorry doc...buddy was always about the music,his solos were about the music,are you kidding me?his solos swung,thats what music is about.his solos were musical.how could claim to say that.
To me Buddy is all about technique and not about the music. All his solos are flash and have nothing to do with the song structure or the musical context. he took something that had been musical, think of drummers like Baby Dodds, Zutty Singleton, Big Sid Cattlett, who all paid attention to the melody. But Buddy turned that musicality into technique as an end in itself. Listen to Rich Roach record.
Of course if you like technique at the expense of musicality, then by all means listen to Buddy.
If Rich was "the worst thing that ever happened to jazz drumming" then why would he have played with so many of the greats: Count Basie Miles Davis Tommy Dorsey Frank Sinatra Duke Ellington Dizzy Gillespie Lionel Hampton Woody Herman Harry James Charlie Parker Oscar Peterson Artie Shaw Lester Young Ray Brown
His time was great. He was a great ensemble player. It is solo style I am criticizing.
Another way of putting it is: What if a guitar player or a sax player took a solo and in that solo all he or she did was to play exercises as fast as they could be played with no relation to the song. It would sound awful. And that is how I hear Buddy Rich's solo style.
And some of those people, like Dizzy, did not like his ensemble playing either. But that is concert promoters for you.
ok your solo in the video had nothing to do with the music either, maybe in the beginning but not towards the end, I can't count that shit but I don't think you played a form either, explain. By the way i'm not trying to be a dick i'm trying to learn somthing from you.
Don't think you are being a dick. And I am a college music teacher. All questions are good.
The second solo tries to do that. It is just technique. Most people tell me they hear the music stop. there is no flow. The first solo begins with me phrasing the melody and I develop that.
See if you can hear the difference in how the two solos fit the tune. Granted the last part of the first solo gets a bit technical, but I was trying incorporate too much of Max's stuff into too little time.
I listen to alot of Buddy Rich and I love his Big Band playing and appreciate the technical aspect of drumming he developed and popularized, especially his stick control.
However I have to agree that Buddy Rich solos in most part are made of ideas that is aimed towards showcasing his technical skills and not for the sake of the music itself.
I think it depends. If you check out Buddy's solo at the Hauge in 1978 (on youtube), there is an abundence of technique, flash, showmanship and speed but it is artful in way too because he goes from volcanic to whisper. It is almost like a little story. Some of Rich's solos on the Tonight Show were simply quick Entertainment and flash. Rich was a Vaudville guy at heart who sought to entertain first and foremost. Also, he was often in debt and did a lot of things for a quick buck.
hummmm. Im pretty sure I still like Lars better :P but then again, Im a guitarist, not a drummer.
SmallTimeShred 1 year ago
Your historical research and analysis is quite impressive. Future generations of curious minds will indeed prosper from this reference that you've created. Never the less, I can't help but agree with gierich2. Your drumming is very underwhelming. Your next video could be on Rick Allen, as it's probably best for you to abstain from playing with your left appendage.
OppoCity1 2 years ago
I saw Max from the front row @ Magic Bag back in the 90's...olny dissappointment was in how often he dropped/lost his sticks...but I ate up the performance nonetheless. thanks Doc...very informative
dodahkeepstime 2 years ago
Thank you.
I got to see him a number of times in New York back in the 60s, and in Toronto in the early 90s.
drummerdoc 2 years ago
By the way drummerdoc if you have videos of Max Roach Solos could you upload ? If thats possible ?
SaucisseMerguez 2 years ago
I have a lot of his work on various formats.
When I have time, I will re-record a couple on dvd and post them. It is a time consuming experience, so I will see how much I get done.
drummerdoc 2 years ago
Ok thank you.
SaucisseMerguez 2 years ago
interesting, this video is well explained, Max Roach is my favorite drummer I just like watching videos of him, hes cool
SaucisseMerguez 2 years ago
Glad you found it informative.
I was lucky enough to have seen him live many times. he is cool.
drummerdoc 2 years ago
Max Roach is my favourite drummer. You seem to admire him a lot, too. Sorry, but nevertheless I dont like your drumming.
Why?
- Because of the busy and senseless left hand comping.
- Because the ride pattern doesnt swing at all.
- Because of the pounding four on the floor (Max feathered!)
-Because there seems to be no musical context in both of the solo parts (the whole tune doesnt rule).
PS: Buddy Rich could play the drums and he could solo. Max Roach would have agreed to this view.
gierich2 2 years ago 3
@gierich2 Not to mention the complete lack of dynamics, there is no change in the volume or power, just hitting shit =S
Straq 1 year ago
How much of Max's style was derived from Jo Jones, Sid Catlett and even Chick Webb? I read that Jo Jones and Big Sid were dropping bombs and using more color around the kit in the early 1940's. I am sure Max and Kenny Clarke just advanced this approach to fit the revolutionary music of Parker and Gillespie. Speaking of Rich, which swing drummer do you feel best adapted to bop? I read that Dave Tough really appreciated the new form.
drummer78 3 years ago
Max always acknowledged Jo, Sid and Clarke as his influences, but he took everything one or even two or three steps beyond anything they did by bringing the drums into the front line. Innovation always builds on the past. See the Modern Drummer tribute to Max.
As for swing drummers into bop, not many. J.C Heard, Doc can't think of his last name, both recorded with Bird, as did Big Sid. The time feel is very different. Not many swing players could play bop.
drummerdoc 3 years ago
Maybe the other swing guy you're thinking of is Lou Fromm (or maybe not). Anyway, good stuff on Max. Where do you teach?
drummer78 3 years ago
I teach at Fanshawe College in London, ONtario, Canada
and, of course, I give private lessons.
The DOC I am thinking of played swing, recorded with Parker before Max, and then went on to play with Errol Garner.
drummerdoc 3 years ago
Hmmm....sounds like it could be Don Lamond you're referring to. I would love to take your course. I wish I lived up that way. Keep posting stuff on youtube.
drummer78 3 years ago
No I checked. It is Doc West. I think his first name was Harold.
Don Lamond was great.
As soon s I have time the rest of that concert will go up. I need to break it up into segments.
drummerdoc 3 years ago
Glad you learned from it. Thank you for the comments.
drummerdoc 3 years ago
This video is incredible and incredibly helpful to me as a drummer. I have always despised drum solos for the very reasons you've stated: They are mostly about technique. I got so tired of all my peers wanting to play the fastest or like Neil Peart, Terry Bozzio, and Mike Portnoy to name a few. While I like those drummers and can definitely appreciate their styles, I always preferred drumming more in the Charlie Watts, Max Weinberg vein. And, of course, Art Blakey and Max Roach. Thanks!
DrummerGrrrl 3 years ago
ha! Thats my favourite saying...Best said by Sly Stone...I suppose thats what makes jazz so great. 'spose ile take a good listen to Roach n Cattlett then..
tekeall 3 years ago
Yes, you got it. And I dig Sly Stone too.
drummerdoc 3 years ago
Ah here now...Ok, Granted Buddy is my favourit drummer & it wud apear dat I wud b biased toward him,but 4 gud reason! I hav listend 2 many of his recordings ovr & ovr agen.His solos Do hold context to the music being played, but they're SOLOS,% its improv.Altho I can't change your opinion i ask you 2 challenge it yourself by listening 2 any Buddy recording,carefuly note his licks and phrasing thru/out, compare this to his solos.you'l find dat the solo is in line with the licks and phrased alike.
tekeall 3 years ago
We can certainly agree to disagree. But my point is that a drum solo should reflect the over all musical context and Rich does not do that. Indeed 90% of drum solos do not do that. His phrasing in his solos has nothing to do with what the band had been playing.
That is why I prefer drummers like Sid Cattlett and Max Roach who always think of the melody of the song when they solo.
But as they say, with a good drummer's pun, different strokes for different folks.
drummerdoc 3 years ago
You seyin' that Buddy Richs drum solos didnt reflect the musical context of what he was playing?
tekeall 3 years ago
That is correct. Rich's solos were never about the musical context and always about his technique. That is why I think he is the worst thing that ever happened to jazz drumming.
Listen to how the music stops when he solos, and all of his solos are the same---speed and flash but no music.
drummerdoc 3 years ago
sorry doc...buddy was always about the music,his solos were about the music,are you kidding me?his solos swung,thats what music is about.his solos were musical.how could claim to say that.
oottz 3 years ago
"the worst thing that ever happened to jazz drumming" You made a strong opinion, back it up please? I can prove you wrong if you want me too.
collinsjordan 3 years ago
To me Buddy is all about technique and not about the music. All his solos are flash and have nothing to do with the song structure or the musical context. he took something that had been musical, think of drummers like Baby Dodds, Zutty Singleton, Big Sid Cattlett, who all paid attention to the melody. But Buddy turned that musicality into technique as an end in itself. Listen to Rich Roach record.
Of course if you like technique at the expense of musicality, then by all means listen to Buddy.
drummerdoc 3 years ago
collinsjordan 3 years ago
His time was great. He was a great ensemble player. It is solo style I am criticizing.
Another way of putting it is: What if a guitar player or a sax player took a solo and in that solo all he or she did was to play exercises as fast as they could be played with no relation to the song. It would sound awful. And that is how I hear Buddy Rich's solo style.
And some of those people, like Dizzy, did not like his ensemble playing either. But that is concert promoters for you.
drummerdoc 3 years ago
ok your solo in the video had nothing to do with the music either, maybe in the beginning but not towards the end, I can't count that shit but I don't think you played a form either, explain. By the way i'm not trying to be a dick i'm trying to learn somthing from you.
collinsjordan 3 years ago
Don't think you are being a dick. And I am a college music teacher. All questions are good.
The second solo tries to do that. It is just technique. Most people tell me they hear the music stop. there is no flow. The first solo begins with me phrasing the melody and I develop that.
See if you can hear the difference in how the two solos fit the tune. Granted the last part of the first solo gets a bit technical, but I was trying incorporate too much of Max's stuff into too little time.
drummerdoc 3 years ago
ok can i send u a video of something that is "fast" and "techniqual" but stills swings like fuck?
collinsjordan 3 years ago
Sure. Love to see it. But it will have to wait til tomorrow. I am getting ready to sign off now.
drummerdoc 3 years ago
I listen to alot of Buddy Rich and I love his Big Band playing and appreciate the technical aspect of drumming he developed and popularized, especially his stick control.
However I have to agree that Buddy Rich solos in most part are made of ideas that is aimed towards showcasing his technical skills and not for the sake of the music itself.
It's quite obvious in his open ended solos.
digiblood 3 years ago
I think it depends. If you check out Buddy's solo at the Hauge in 1978 (on youtube), there is an abundence of technique, flash, showmanship and speed but it is artful in way too because he goes from volcanic to whisper. It is almost like a little story. Some of Rich's solos on the Tonight Show were simply quick Entertainment and flash. Rich was a Vaudville guy at heart who sought to entertain first and foremost. Also, he was often in debt and did a lot of things for a quick buck.
drummer78 3 years ago