I think we agree on many things...IE "unschooling" and "homeschooling". But that they have to have some measures in place to deal with rowdy kids and saftey issues resulting from using machines or chemicals. (In a fair and democratic way). And I think they've done this as well as they could.
In the meantime I've just about finished Alice Miller's "For Your Own Good" - Absolutely Amazing!!
Interesting point, but who will pay for the trips to Disneyland or for the materials to go camping. Usually the parent will have to (if they can afford something like that nowadays). At SVS any student can petition through the school meeting to do any of those things. If they deny his claim the student can still easily do it themselves (IE - raise money for the trip/tickets...etc) SVS schools are extremely flexible with staff and students.
There are a lot of things something the SVS can offer. Friends, opportunities, events, etc. There are a lot of neat things about it. I think in my vision of things something like SVS wouldn't be schools ... rather just a place of people go to have friends, and if they want to learn together ... they can. Yet if they want a job, or to leave at any point for any reason, that is cool too.
however, a couple of problems ... 1. once it becomes compulsory, than the democracy becomes a tyranny. 2. They have forced positive obligations. 3. it takes them out of the real world, and says real learning is separate from the real world. Like I said ... it is better than any other school ... but in my mind, vastly worse than unschooling. I wish there were more voluntary social organizations like it though.
Compulsory it what way? That you must attend? If so, I might agree with that part, but once they are on campus they can do "pretty much" whatever they want "inside or outside". Within limitation of school rules.
Yes ... however, with homeschooling (or as I believe in, unschooling) ... there are no innate positive obligations. The person can go to the park, or to a job, or read a book, or to Disneyland, or build a house. Sudbury is the best school out there. It is almost the best a school can get. But, to me, that is like saying the best lima beans on the market. They are still freaking lima beans.
I have watched their videos and read up on the premise of the schools. I think that they are the best schools that I have seen ... however, I have the problem with the fact that they are still compulsory (Not it's fault), democratic, and I still do not believe in the whole idea of schools (a separate place from the world that we go for learning).
I wish there was a free market system with school where children could choose not to attend school, or choose which school to attend, but as you said, it is not the children paying for the school systems, it is the adults, who by and large are apathetic and want free daycare so they are free to work or simply are free of the burden of spending time with the people that they chose to bring in to the world.
Ok, first question. When you said a business has it's own rules, and they are according to what's popular with customers yet reasonable. Isn't that a democracy? hehe
My other question. Are you saying that anarchy fails because people are crazy? And then the same for democracy? In other words...no basic moral police. Basic things like, no stealing:no cruel killing:no vandalizing other people's properties.
If you wanna debate anarchy, i suggest checking out "confederalsocialist" here on YT.
"Ok, first question. When you said a business has it's own rules, and they are according to what's popular with customers yet reasonable. Isn't that a democracy?" Democracy is rule by majority. It is that the majority uses force on the minority. With market systems everything is voluntary, and there is no force. I do not believe that anarchy fails, and I don't think I made that assertation. I am an anarchist. I have watched all of confeds videos, and I know him well.
If it's of any intrest to you, I'd love to hear more on the topic of the downsides of democracy.
When raised in a democratic country, we're led to believe that democracy is the greatest ideal. People go to great lengths to 'defend' democracy (both in verbal exchanges and bigger world wide conflicts) and I'd be interested in how to approach explaining to an indoctrinated democracy supporter how and why the system is flawed.
Aaron, I think your personality type is one who improves people to achieve a standard of conduct, or to keep people responsible. You remind me of a university recruiter in math and science I had.
I completely agree with your analysis the "X system will solve Y problem" mentality. A lot of market anarchists make the mistake of believing that in a market anarchist society all privately written and enforced laws would follow the non-aggression principal.
I'm not so sure about that. I totally disagree with Hans Herman Hoppe on this as well. Democracy is decentralized more so than monarchy leaving less power in the hands of a single person. While it isn't any more moral than monarchy, it's still more practical.
where is childrens money? How can they,as young people make choices to advance their concerns without funds? While toys are fine for most to pass time and for stimulation, young people like all of us have disire and purpose. Prejudice because of age is crippling. Humans demonstrating a willingness to create and an aptitude for problem solving must be awarded the opportunity to do so without limitation.
Why are we talking about children "organizing". Children need to be taught to organize. It is our responsibility to help children learn the concepts required for freedom and rationality. Anarchy is not some absence of government, it is an advanced form of political organization that takes into account all the history of mankind, children need to be taught this before they can organize in this manner.
I don't understand how a child can have a say in a matter other than his emotions, and while those do need to be respected , I don't understand how emotional statements can aid in educational decision making, especially one of a young child ( I am not talking about teenagers). What does "I don't like this" mean to an educator? What can an educator do about this, would a child know why? Is a child to be left animalistic if he refuses to participate in education?
Excellent, I loved the point about the how if people believe it's ok to kill babies its going to be "ok". I have made a similar point when examining why certain geographic areas have more violence than others. The usual answer I get is that those areas don't have enough police coverage or the laws are not strict enough. The problem is not with how many police there are, the problem is in the beliefs those people in those areas hold.More good(dosile) people in an area means less violence.
I'm gonna disagree with a lot of what you said here.
I agree that democracy is bad but in the context of a school, a democratically run school is a bit better than a normal school where it is more like a monarchy.
The best type of school would be no school of course but if our only options are a democratically run school or a normal school I'd be more apt to pick the democratically run school. Same as in society, if our choices were a dictatorship or a democracy I'd rather pick the latter.
my solution to school was anarchy. i either slept through every class or did handstand pushups on top of my desk. i also refused to do any homework.
the fact that i STILL got perfect scores on all my tests kept them from kicking me out for awhile, but eventually they cracked down and quadrupled the size of the rulebook.
the day after they finally booted me out i showed up with my GED and told them if i knew it was that easy to get i would have dropped out in 6th grade and got my dog one too.
I think we agree on many things...IE "unschooling" and "homeschooling". But that they have to have some measures in place to deal with rowdy kids and saftey issues resulting from using machines or chemicals. (In a fair and democratic way). And I think they've done this as well as they could.
In the meantime I've just about finished Alice Miller's "For Your Own Good" - Absolutely Amazing!!
Peace...brother,
Ryan
objectivist 3 years ago
Interesting point, but who will pay for the trips to Disneyland or for the materials to go camping. Usually the parent will have to (if they can afford something like that nowadays). At SVS any student can petition through the school meeting to do any of those things. If they deny his claim the student can still easily do it themselves (IE - raise money for the trip/tickets...etc) SVS schools are extremely flexible with staff and students.
objectivist 3 years ago
There are a lot of things something the SVS can offer. Friends, opportunities, events, etc. There are a lot of neat things about it. I think in my vision of things something like SVS wouldn't be schools ... rather just a place of people go to have friends, and if they want to learn together ... they can. Yet if they want a job, or to leave at any point for any reason, that is cool too.
aaron0883 3 years ago
however, a couple of problems ... 1. once it becomes compulsory, than the democracy becomes a tyranny. 2. They have forced positive obligations. 3. it takes them out of the real world, and says real learning is separate from the real world. Like I said ... it is better than any other school ... but in my mind, vastly worse than unschooling. I wish there were more voluntary social organizations like it though.
aaron0883 3 years ago
Compulsory it what way? That you must attend? If so, I might agree with that part, but once they are on campus they can do "pretty much" whatever they want "inside or outside". Within limitation of school rules.
objectivist 3 years ago
Yes ... however, with homeschooling (or as I believe in, unschooling) ... there are no innate positive obligations. The person can go to the park, or to a job, or read a book, or to Disneyland, or build a house. Sudbury is the best school out there. It is almost the best a school can get. But, to me, that is like saying the best lima beans on the market. They are still freaking lima beans.
aaron0883 3 years ago
Aaron,
Have you seen any of the Sudbury Valley Videos, read any of there material, or been to one of their schools?
Ryan
objectivist 3 years ago
I have watched their videos and read up on the premise of the schools. I think that they are the best schools that I have seen ... however, I have the problem with the fact that they are still compulsory (Not it's fault), democratic, and I still do not believe in the whole idea of schools (a separate place from the world that we go for learning).
aaron0883 3 years ago
I wish there was a free market system with school where children could choose not to attend school, or choose which school to attend, but as you said, it is not the children paying for the school systems, it is the adults, who by and large are apathetic and want free daycare so they are free to work or simply are free of the burden of spending time with the people that they chose to bring in to the world.
wntrcrd 3 years ago
Ok, first question. When you said a business has it's own rules, and they are according to what's popular with customers yet reasonable. Isn't that a democracy? hehe
My other question. Are you saying that anarchy fails because people are crazy? And then the same for democracy? In other words...no basic moral police. Basic things like, no stealing:no cruel killing:no vandalizing other people's properties.
If you wanna debate anarchy, i suggest checking out "confederalsocialist" here on YT.
Thx.
samuelmichaud 3 years ago
"Ok, first question. When you said a business has it's own rules, and they are according to what's popular with customers yet reasonable. Isn't that a democracy?" Democracy is rule by majority. It is that the majority uses force on the minority. With market systems everything is voluntary, and there is no force. I do not believe that anarchy fails, and I don't think I made that assertation. I am an anarchist. I have watched all of confeds videos, and I know him well.
aaron0883 3 years ago
Thank you for replying! Good answers. Looking forward to more vids.
samuelmichaud 3 years ago
If it's of any intrest to you, I'd love to hear more on the topic of the downsides of democracy.
When raised in a democratic country, we're led to believe that democracy is the greatest ideal. People go to great lengths to 'defend' democracy (both in verbal exchanges and bigger world wide conflicts) and I'd be interested in how to approach explaining to an indoctrinated democracy supporter how and why the system is flawed.
pog0 3 years ago
Aaron, I think your personality type is one who improves people to achieve a standard of conduct, or to keep people responsible. You remind me of a university recruiter in math and science I had.
leephysics 3 years ago
I completely agree with your analysis the "X system will solve Y problem" mentality. A lot of market anarchists make the mistake of believing that in a market anarchist society all privately written and enforced laws would follow the non-aggression principal.
BWF89 3 years ago
is power static or does it hang around where the right thing is being done at the right moment?
wolffenhaus 3 years ago
I'm not so sure about that. I totally disagree with Hans Herman Hoppe on this as well. Democracy is decentralized more so than monarchy leaving less power in the hands of a single person. While it isn't any more moral than monarchy, it's still more practical.
FistsoFuckinFreedom 3 years ago
where is childrens money? How can they,as young people make choices to advance their concerns without funds? While toys are fine for most to pass time and for stimulation, young people like all of us have disire and purpose. Prejudice because of age is crippling. Humans demonstrating a willingness to create and an aptitude for problem solving must be awarded the opportunity to do so without limitation.
wolffenhaus 3 years ago
I agree. There are way too many barriers for children getting jobs, and starting their own businesses.
aaron0883 3 years ago
Why are we talking about children "organizing". Children need to be taught to organize. It is our responsibility to help children learn the concepts required for freedom and rationality. Anarchy is not some absence of government, it is an advanced form of political organization that takes into account all the history of mankind, children need to be taught this before they can organize in this manner.
AnarchyIsForMe 3 years ago
I don't understand how a child can have a say in a matter other than his emotions, and while those do need to be respected , I don't understand how emotional statements can aid in educational decision making, especially one of a young child ( I am not talking about teenagers). What does "I don't like this" mean to an educator? What can an educator do about this, would a child know why? Is a child to be left animalistic if he refuses to participate in education?
AnarchyIsForMe 3 years ago
Excellent, I loved the point about the how if people believe it's ok to kill babies its going to be "ok". I have made a similar point when examining why certain geographic areas have more violence than others. The usual answer I get is that those areas don't have enough police coverage or the laws are not strict enough. The problem is not with how many police there are, the problem is in the beliefs those people in those areas hold.More good(dosile) people in an area means less violence.
Seansafk 3 years ago
I'm gonna disagree with a lot of what you said here.
I agree that democracy is bad but in the context of a school, a democratically run school is a bit better than a normal school where it is more like a monarchy.
The best type of school would be no school of course but if our only options are a democratically run school or a normal school I'd be more apt to pick the democratically run school. Same as in society, if our choices were a dictatorship or a democracy I'd rather pick the latter.
FistsoFuckinFreedom 3 years ago
my solution to school was anarchy. i either slept through every class or did handstand pushups on top of my desk. i also refused to do any homework.
the fact that i STILL got perfect scores on all my tests kept them from kicking me out for awhile, but eventually they cracked down and quadrupled the size of the rulebook.
the day after they finally booted me out i showed up with my GED and told them if i knew it was that easy to get i would have dropped out in 6th grade and got my dog one too.
cyberpsygen7 3 years ago
Yeah, school is ridiculous.
FistsoFuckinFreedom 3 years ago
What are the mulbury schools?
1467unschool 3 years ago
sorry. I meant Sudbury Schools.
aaron0883 3 years ago