Esa-Pekka Salonen discusses Messiaen

[PathosDistanz]

If a film was made on Salonen Gary Oldman would be the perfect actor to portray him, but it would need to be made by someone like Peter Watkins instead of whoever directed that piece of tripe on Beethoven.

[jamesaellis]

Salone is so right. But how come he take so long to come out before his concerts starts?

[quilicura7]

This is a most helpful introduction for the person who will be hearing Messiaen for the first time.

[demovidtest]

tempo is one massively important thing the conductor dictates. i don't really see too many compositions that notate the EXACT beats per minute for each bar of music, PRECISELY where the changes in beats per minute occur, precisely HOW LONG the change will take. and that's extremely important, because even two beats per minute difference is HUGE.

[organman52]

This thread has become infected with empty minds and tin ears.

[MusicaRicercata]

You mean the one(s) solely provided by yourself?

[Hannele13]

Very good and interesting

[organman52]

Hey - did everyone notice that glasscage01 has closed his youtube account? He/she will no doubt open up another one under a different name. And just when I thought we were becoming CLOSE FRIENDS ! Well, I find you - don't worry.

[TravisEdward]

I am on your side organman, I do not believe that conductors are necessary, however, there is nothing wrong with them.

[organman52]

Some conductors are indeed lovely individuals. But I've known enough of them to know that I don't like the entire profile they project. In my eye, all they do is act at the music. They actually think it's necessary to start gyrating wildly every time piano suddenly goes to forte - as if the musicians can't SEE the dynamics in their parts. Orpheus Chamber Orchestra is a tremendous example of what we're talking about here. And every 'small ensemble' does just fine without them.

[TravisEdward]

sure, extra humanity is great, and sometimes it is interesting to see a conductors point of view of a piece, because a lot of times the musicians in the group do not study the score as extensively as some conductors do. However, what is really magical, is seeing a group of musicians playing a piece completely without conductor, reading each others body language,feeding off of everyone in the ensembles own kind of "conducting", their phrasing, and musicality. That is some special stuff.

[organman52]

I agree on all points except about the 'extra humanity.' What most people don't realize is that symphonic music is 'expanded' chamber music. A piano trio, string quartet, quintet, octet, etc., do not use a conductor - it is a beautiful collaboration. The same should be the case for symphonies. Did you know that the Israel Phil. recorded the Brahms Haydn Variations without a conductor - Istvan Kertesz had died just before completing the Brahms series. It's a perfect performance in every respect.

[TravisEdward]

I completely agree, and I did know about the israel philharmonic, that is a prime example. Another prime example, last year at interlochen, the orchestra was performing barbers first essay, and the conductor did not show up. they did the thing without a conductor, YOUTHS! It is definitely a wonderful thing to see that. Yes, orchestras are just a bunch of chamber groups in one, and one giant chamber group in its own right.

[RobberZhi]

what an ass.

[organman52]

Yes, isn't he?

[RobberZhi]

i meant you.

[organman52]

Don't you think I knew that? And do you actually believe for a nanosecond that I give a crap about what you think?

[RobberZhi]

your fragile self worth gave sufficient crap to reply twice.

[RobberZhi]

and just so we all have this straight, your evidence that conductors arent necessary is that the 3rd rate israel phil played a not very complex piece of music without the conductor with whom they had already done the hard part and rehearsed said music. oh, and also that piano trios dont seem to require one. you really are one of the great critical minds of our time. let me know when your latest book of observations is published.

[organman52]

Does anyone really care what he thinks? He is grossly overpaid, while the fine musicians he conducts receive very little in comparison - and they do all the work. In other words, I can't stand conductors.

[swfuj]

You fail at music.

[organman52]

Whatever you say, omniscient one.

[mserebreny]

organman52 - with respect; as a musician who has played in an orchestral setting myself, I disagree with you. While the musician does all of the work as far as sound and technique is concerned, it's the conductor that shapes the feel of the piece itself. No matter the talent, As every musician is unique, a stage full of people playing their own interpretations to the same piece would sound horrible. We draw on the conductors energy and almost interpretive dance of conducting for inspiration

[organman52]

And with respect, I ask you - haven't you heard of Orpheus? or the myriad of large ensembles that do not have a conductor. I believe you are underestimating yourself and other orchestral musicians. And by the way, the COMPOSER shaped the piece, not the conductor. Conductors are usually - as you say - dancing, but they are clowns acting out the music. I will always feel they are unnecessary.

[glasscage01]

If composers are the ONLY ones shaping the music, why do recordings of the same piece sound different from each other, sometimes radically? It doesn't matter whether it's on the organ, in a string quartet, or with an orchestra, the performers SHAPE THE WORK ON SOME LEVEL! With an orchestra, conductors are leaders and main interpreters. The conductor doesn't just "dance," he/she makes most of the musical decisions, like interpretation issues, IN REHEARSALS! They do more than JUST PERFORM!

[organman52]

Very good point - different performances do indeed sound different. But don't you think that the master composer had an exact idea in mind as to how his music should go? Or are you one of those individuals that believes that the score is simply a guide or a suggestion, and that performers can do anything they damn well please? Do you think Beethoven, for example, would conduct one of his symphonies differently from concert to concert? If you do, then please don't waste my time.

[glasscage01]

What difference does it make if composers have an exact idea or not? Performers have to make musical decisions, and unless the composer is alive and they're lucky enough to work with him/her, they aren't going to know exactly what he/she wants. Once again, I say that in orchestras, conductors make most of those decisions.

Your reply is off topic from the argument about conductors and their importance. (and Beethoven wouldn't need to conduct his symphonies using your argument!)

[organman52]

You reveal your utter ignorance by asking the question 'what difference does it make....?' You also reveal your complete lack of respect for the master composers, not to mention your lack of knowledge. Performers today substitute knowledge with what is referred to as 'interpretation.' In my view, interpretation is a substitute for knowledge. Knowledge is acquired by STUDYING the composer's markings - every one of them. 'Interpretation' is an excuse. Think however you wish - it is your right.

[RobberZhi]

yo, dufus. orpheus is a CHAMBER ORCHESTRA, not a 'large orchestra' . you are out of your depth, little man

[organman52]

True - they are not large - but their repertoire proves you dead wrong. You are grasping at straws with your 'argument.' You will endorse whatever the mainstream dictates, and I will CONDEMN it entirely. Your choice. My choice.

[RobberZhi]

the fact that you apparently are unable to detect differences in phrasing, color, tempo and the million other subtle things that can't be notated suggests to me that you arent a terribly sensitive listener in the first place. ever think that your dismissal of the art of conducting has more to do with your tin ear?

[RobberZhi]

here's hoping that someday you come to understand enough about the performance of orchestral music to appreciate how staggeringly stupid you sound talking about it.

[vokshumana]

I would take lessons by this guy - if he is not too much expensive.

[HolstWhore]

he is!

[musicamultimedia]

It's real: Messiaen is a great genius, original like only the great masters do!

And Salonen is a great musician!

[q6drum]

I love listening to Salonen's discussions on music. He has always been a champion of new music.

[FlutistMary]

agreed :) I also like the way he appreciates different kinds of music. He doesn't seem to have the elitist beliefs that are too common in the classical music 'world' :) I'm so sad to see him leave L.A. this year (I live here!) but I'll be very interested to see his new work with the Philharmonia :D