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Christians should be on guard with the leaders teaching. I was involved for 4 yrs and never heard anything close to... “Take care, & be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”Lk12:15 "Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have..."Heb13:5 "...I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content."Phil4:11 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils...1Tim6:10
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Macgracia since you think the tool and CDs are a scam in the Amwaygobal business. Did you go to college. Did you have to buy books and materials to do you class assignments . Are this two scam. Ever profession needs educational tools Amwaygobal isn't any different. With out them you won't be that successful if at all. It's not a requirement to get the tools nor is it a requirement to attend any conferences , but as a said before every profession, has educational tools for success theirs no guar
@gstoro tools are legitimate & necessary in any profession. The problem for a Christian comes when these tools appeal to the heart instead of just simply teaching you how to sell a product. Amway tools are filled with materialism, love of $, covetousness, green, jealousy, idolatry etc. Colleges have it right when they leave heart matters/desires to the Bible. You only have to attend 1 large seminar to be tempted from stage to covet after another's possessions, all in the name of "motivation".
@MACGARCIAcom No you are wrong on a lot of levels. Might want to research some more in Bible and Amway. I did for 6 months before starting. I consider it a legitimate 'job/business' for Christians. Also our church administrator and pastor (he is not in Amway) are not against it. Our church is slavic very conservative and has over 1000 members.
@DimaRange you missed my comment. Amway IS a legitimate, legal, opportunity. Amway is actually a good idea! The problem, for a Christian, isn't Amway but the leaders & team's TEACHING. They don't stick to teaching how to sell the products or services like the average tools all jobs or colleges have. They dig deep into our PASSIONS & DREAMS. I'm almost positive (unless you go to prosperity gospel church) your leaders, if given the opportunity to study the TEACHING, would council you to stay away.
Macgracia the training system was necessary for the business . Ever business has a system. The problem with most who have know clue about business. The job you every started in having training for there employees to be successful no different then Amwaygobal.the difference we own our business your employees. You can't be successful in any thing with out education be it traditional or non traditional. Bible also say my people without vision shall perish.
@gstoro you have taken that verse out of context & used it for your materialism like most Christian IBO's do. There are systems out there for just about everything but none like Amway's. They are the best (in my 4 years experience) at bringing the covetous heart out to desire materials, wealth, greed, jealousy, envy etc. If this is not true, name 1 CD that mentions what John told a soldier to do when he said to, "be content with your wages.” Lk 3:14 He could have said, "you should go diamond!"
“Take care, & be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”Lk12:15 "Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have..."Heb13:5 "...I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content."Phil4:11 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils...1Tim6:10
Research the business.. Amway + network 21 are exseptionall great!! People who think amway is a scam are the ones that don't like getting out their comfort zone and have failed and can only blame amway because they cant and don't wanna accept responsibility..
I am 20 years old. Live in California. Never had a job. Never want one. I have read a few of Kiyosaki's books. I am not a part of Amway but I do see Amway as an opportunity that I will join soon. I agree that the CD's and seminars are some sort of pyramid scam and tend to frustrate ex-IBO's with the successes of Emeralds and Diamonds. I'm trying to gather the pros and cons but I know that in the end I won't know if this is a business for me until I try it.
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@danw1374 it has been around because sin has been in the hearts of man since Adam & Eve. Amway is no scam, the "system" with all their CD's & seminars are the scam. This is where they feed and encourage IBO's hearts to covet. The Bible says,"Keep your life free from love of money, & be content with what you have..." Heb 13:5 Amway will never fail as long as systems keep feeding sinful hearts with this teaching to always WANT more & more. $ is not sin but the LOVE for it is. Christians beware.
@cubanita365 I have read every monthly book (4 yrs), listened & attended everything in the "system". Then when I became a Christian I noticed the system's teaching was un-Biblical. Some used Christian lingo but it was ALWAYS out of context. One in particular was the downplay of an employee position. They teach that it is SLAVE work, when the Bible never lowers or considers one position being better, more of a blessing, more choices, than the other. The teaching was also heavy on materialism.
in 1986for violating FTC 1997 rules Amway is not to misrepresent income According to Quixtar's own "disclosure document" (pdf) the average monthly gross income for an "active" IBO is $115 (or $1,380 annually). Just a reminder, gross income means before expenses such as travel, lodging, training, motivational materials, etc. Quixtar even admits that "there may be significant business expenses, mostly discretionary, that may be greater in relation to income in the first years of operation."
@auntieSpam That's true, although one of the cool things about MLMs isn't the money itself. But whenever you join an MLM you legally become a business owner. Which entitles you to tax writeoffs. That means all those expenses are able to be written off in taxes. If you stop looking at them as things you have to pay for and just enjoy them as vacations, you're basically getting free vacations and products if you actually like Amway's products. That's a business expense.
These 'scam products' are the best ones we've ever used! The pure fact that points out they are the best is they're the cheapest ones available on the market (of course, if you don't go and compare a Mercedes and a Lada and say 'but Mercedes is more expensive' ...wouldn't you say :-) )
Only the fact that I'm buying cheaper, better products says enough for itself.
If you're so into piramids, check out your current business and let me know one person earning more than the director. ;-)
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All I can say to this Man, purely he is full of shit and the greatest bullshit is network marketing, they say everybody could be rich,but how?, suppose the world only contain 100 people and you are 99 one, you have only one left to make you rich, is that possible to be rich with one?!..the fact is without cruetly one can not be rich at all, if one doesn't damgae, exploit, deceive thousands of people there is no such thing as being rich!,...all i can say one must learn to be human than be rich!
@LiewDarWin I understand you didn't want me to reply, but i'm not here to argue with you. I'm not sure where you got your information from but you may have been mis informed. Ponzi schemes are illegal. Amway has been around for 50+ years and have made tens of thousands of people financially free. Everyone starts out fresh, even those who have succeeded. So can I, so can you, so can anyone else. Don't let other people who have not been in the business misinform people like yourself.
@PokerorDie So what if Amway has been around for 50+ years? The Mafia has been for more than 50 years too. Lets assume you work in Amway and profit 10% for every sale. The annual revenue of Amway is 8.2 Billion and there are 3 Million of you. Do some simple maths and you get a profit of 200 dollars per person. Is that measly income able to give you financial freedom? I'm not even counting in those money you spend into the Amway membership buying the tapes and motivational dvds from your upline.
@LiewDarWin i am not in amway, but i still have to make this point..you mentioed there was 3 million people in amway, then you divided the amway income by the number of people..in order to find out what each person makes, the more usefull way would be to see how many people actually do any work..not all 3 million memeber are active, some joined, and never show up or do anything, you cant really count them in those numbers...its like taking 10 people, with a combined 1million dollar
@LiewDarWin annual income, by the numbers, everyone averages 100k a piece, but if one person makes 500k by themselves or one person is actuall unemployed, those 2 factors will drastically alter the average earners per person..you cant always go by the raw numbers, sometimes you have to look beyond mere statistics..just saying..take care
@PokerorDie Even the Government warns "Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. Some are pyramid schemes. It’s best not to get involved in plans where the money you make is based primarily on the number of distributors you recruit and your sales to them, rather than on your sales to people outside the plan who intend to use the products." This is clearly aimed towards Amway which is a blatant MLM based company and basically exploiting the US legal system.
@PokerorDie If you go to ex-cult.org/Groups/Amway/otherside/tosp25.htm you will realise how much more compared to the lower ranks the higher ranks will earn. This is the fundamental concept for MLM.
Also, if you have financial freedom I don't see the need for you to explain this to me and get me to join under you so you can earn from me and my downline or whatever the crap is.
@LiewDarWin "It’s best not to get involved in plans where the money you make is based primarily on the number of distributors you recruit and your sales to them, rather than on your sales to people outside the plan who intend to use the products." How is this targeted at Amway? You MUST have clients otherwise you don't recieve any bonuses... so there goes that little theory. I suggest you do more research. You unfortunately don't have enough information to justify these criticisms.
@PokerorDie You have not answered my questions yet. "You MUST have clients" This clearly shows that you need to scam others in order for you to profit, it is never enough for you to just sell your products. Bonuses, they are merely a percentage of what Amway profits from you. So what happens when everybody join Amway and there is no people on Earth left? Do you still profit? Also, since you love Amway so much, I don't see your name being in Forbes, neither any one of the top distributors.
@LiewDarWin This is unbelievable. You criticize the company saying that it's illegal because they only sell to people within the organization..I tell you that that's not true, because you have to have clients, people outside of the business that you sell to... THEN YOU CRITICIZE THAT!.
@PokerorDie Amway were investigated in the UK, a country where huge political donations don't influence political policy unlike the US, where amway has a long history of exchanging campaign contributions for political influence and favorable legislation. The findings from the British government were less than favorable to say the least, one interesting fact that came out of the investigation was that less then 5% of IBO's were selling to clients outside of amway, very poor indeed.
@PokerorDie Another report from amway itself, states that over 60% of first time non-IBO customers buy once & never return. IBO's have no real-world customer volume, just as the products themselves have no real world open market value. It's all about self-consumption. In 2008, of the 8.2 billion in “estimated” retail sales, 7.6 billion of it was self-consumption by the IBO’s themselves, only $643 million was sold to customers outside of the business.
@PokerorDie I'm only sixteen but I have basic knowledge in all these scams and crazy marketing techniques. obviously I have never heard of Amway until this video came out but after some research and common sense this is what I found so correct me whenever I'm wrong all the sources I used are from legitimate sites like their own site for their fiscal report and law.com for the employee information.
@LiewDarWin You have the wrong interpretation of what the government considers an illegal pyramid scheme. It's illegal if meets any of these 3 requirments: 1. you get commissions for registering other people. I signed someone up last month, I did not get 1 penny for him signing up. 2. It has no products moving through it. We have millions of products through over 600 partner stores. and 3. It has a large initial start up fee. Is 60 bucks alot? idk not really.
Its just a sugar coated ponzi scam the higher you are the more you earn but at the bottom of the pyramid you're just paying to those on top and dont bother replying to me i dont want to hear your arguments
@LiewDarWin "I don't want to hear arguments"... wow and people give that a thumbs up? That's the most ignorant thing i've ever heard. You don't want to hear arguments or other opinions? I did, I listened to everyone's opinion and I still do. Yet you close your ears to knowledge and somehow you think you are right. Amazing.
@LiewDarWin I hope your close mindedness to hearing other's feedback doesn't hinder you from being successful in whatever avenue you pursue. Amway can be a guy at the top makes a lot of money, it can also be a guy at the top doesn't make any money. Amway takes work and belief in the people, the products, and the underlying core values that have kept Amway in business since 1959 and pushes it to grow year after year. One of the most profitable points in Amway is when you personally sell products.
@LiewDarWin Not an attempt at arguing, I don't even like Amway. But isn't everything a pyramid scheme? Every large company has the people at the top making all the money while the people at the bottom make none. But the janitor at Microsoft's corporate office doesn't get to bring people in under him. He doesn't get to build anything, he just mops floors, and his paycheck at the end of the month will never change.
@NetworkingYouths Okay I'll try to explain to you, the top people of other companies earn money, but not from the bottom people of the companies, they earn totally from sales. The bottom people provide labor only.However, Amway top earners sell DVDs and stuff to the bottom people of the company, making them pay for it, and they profit off the bottom people through referral sales, so theoretically Amway is a pyramid because the top earns from the bottom by the bottom paying the top.
@LiewDarWin But they do profit off of their salespeople. In McDonald's they receive profit off of the advertising through increases in sales. They receive profit from their salespeople themselves. Then they receive profit from the people who they franchise out to. No person will ever be able to make more money than the person above him in a company that franchises out. I don't defend Amway because I don't believe in autoships as a good business. I just hope you don't see every network marketing
@NetworkingYouths If you ever happen to be a lowest ranking worker in Mcdonalds, you don't have to pay the upper line a single cent, the company pays you directly for your labor. They do not profit from your labor as you are supposedly helping to maintain the company. But if you are in the lowest ranking for Amway or whatever that can be, the uplines will force you to buy their crappy dvds about motivation and you have to pay some sign up fee.
@LiewDarWin that is not entirely accuarate..if an employee works hard, helps the comapny be profitable, attract more customers, thus increasing the companies value, it does not financially benifit the employee who does the work, but it will effect the CEO and high level execs, who will see and increase in their pay, especially if the company is on wallstreet since a part of their pay is stock options, if the company value goes up, stock price goes up, it pays higher divedend, CEO pay
@LiewDarWin increases, the employee may not pay the upper people anything to work there, but make no mistake, CEO's and high level execs do benifit more financially from the employees hard work than the employee themselves..considering the $300-1 ceo-employee ratio in pay..sounds like someone is gettin rich off employees backs
@NetworkingYouths In a normal company, the harder you work, the chances of having an increase in rank is higher. In an MLM, no matter how hard you work, your upline always earns more than you even if he/she slacks because she profits off your referrals and sales too.
@LiewDarWin the same thing can be said in a real estate to agent system, if a broker wants to increase their income, easiest way they can do it, is to recruit and train more agents, since they will make a profit off whatever a agent does..only a broker can recruit people and profit off their sales, all an agent can do is work harder, put in more time to make more money, thats good for them, but great for the broker, since they dont have to be there at the sale to get paid
@NetworkingYouths Do the salespeople in other companies profit off other salespeople? no. this is completely different from MLM. In a pyramid scheme the lowest ranked people in the company always pay into for the profits
@LiewDarWin I'm not sure what MLMs you've been looking at, but in the right MLM you can in fact make more money than your upline if you build your organization right and work hard. That's what I do in fact like about the MLMs I work in. If I work hard, I can make more money than the people in my upline, and the people in my downline can make more money than me. Sure they profit off of your hard work, but that is in fact the same in any company.
@LiewDarWin If I work for McDonald's, sure, I will never have to pay the company anything. But I will never make more than my manager. And he'll never make more than the franchisee. Etc. Sure, I can work hard, in hopes of a promotion, but the increase in money I make won't be up to me. I could lose my job at any moment if I decide I don't want to work to my fullest at that time. And with raises, the pay doesn't increase exponentially as it does in MLMs. It increases at a low % rate if averaged.
@NetworkingYouths good point, direct selling gives a person more control over their time and a chance to gain more control over their income, since at a job your income is already predetermined before you evere clock in for work..anytime in business you get a guarentee there is an inherent trade off....a company will promise you certain pay for your time, but they determine the pay, and how long you can work for the company
@WironPL So write one...I'm sure it's that simple. All ya gotta do is write a book. You don't need to have the finanical experience in accumulating wealth. .. just write a book, go ahead a dude.
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@HiveDes My friend joined Amway not all that long ago and he makes over 150 bucks a month doing absolutely nothing lol. What's so bad about that? You don't need to be a salesperson, they have an awesome training site plus the mentorship from your upline that teaches you how to succeed. If my friends don't want to be a part of Amway I just say ok and thank them for their time... whats so bad about that?
With saturation you have to consider that MOST everyone will not want the products or to be recruited. It will be too expensive for some, inconvenient for others. Many of your prospects may have already been recruited by the company in your town, or are have already been approached. So out of 10,000 people, only so many are going to want to buy the products, and only so many distributors are needed. When you have too many distributors, most of the purchases are made by the distributors.
@sbohandley The products are actually pretty sweet. Quality speaking they have great ratings, I'm not peddling some crap to people. 180 money back guarantee. I'm not some Kirby salesman, people actually like this stuff. Including myself. Here is my suggestion to you. Go find a an IBO whose been in for a while, Platinum level or something and ask questions. Don't just go off of some crap you've seen or read on the internet. An intelligent person looks into something before making a decision
Right, well this duplication and getting bonuses to others you recruit into "the business" defines it as a Product Based Pyramid Scheme. Doing "less of the work" means you are making money off a down line, which is not direct selling. By creating more "you's", who create more "you's" beneath you is endless chain recruiting. According to Dr. Jon Taylor of the Consumer Awareness Institute, this is why Amway qualifies as a Product based Pyramid Scheme.
@sbohandley Well you can call it what you will. I personally believe every job in America is a pyramid scheme. You have one or two guys at the top who make all the money and do the least amount of work while all the dish washers and bag boys do all the work and make the least amount of money. In this business I get mentorship from those in my upline, financially independant people. They WANT you to succeed and are willing to help you. You won't find that at your job.
@PokerorDie These so called friends don't want you to succeed for YOUR benefit, but for their own selfish reasons. Leave Amway, and you will find out how fast these people will want NOTHING to do with you. As far as these "financially nonindependent" people go, there is a saying in MLM- "Fake it, until you make it". It is a fact that people in MLM pretend to be rich, for the very reasons why you look up to them. They often go into debt and tell lies to sell an image. This is a fraud itself.
@sbohandley Ok, so someone wants me to be rich for his own reasons. What do I care? The result is the same. And I know, i've heard that before. But that is not representative of the corporation itself. Not everyone pretends to be rich so they can scam you into the business. It certainly is not the practice of business that Amway promotes. You are claiming that everyone is just trying to rip me off and lying to me, you have not had the personal experiences I have had to make that claim.
@sbohandley How is any business different. You have to "recruit" employees, you sit around while they do all the work and you make all the money as an owner. I think that's more of a rip off because you will never have the opportunity to advance. You might get a 50 cent raise or a promotion every 5 years, big whoop. In this business you have the opportunity to grow. You do the more work, you make more money. Your income will go up based off of your performance.
@PokerorDie It isn’t the shape of the organization that is important, but the endless chain of recruitment of participants as primary customers. MLM requires the climbing of a pyramid in order to make enough money to profit to any significant degree. But unlike a corporate pyramid, in MLM and other types of pyramid schemes, virtually all of those at the bottom (the "downline") lose money (some a lot of money), where in a corporation, those at the bottom at least get a minimum wage.
@PokerorDie In MLM the opportunity to grow is an illusion. Most MLM compensation plans are weighted heavily towards those who got in early or scrambled to get to the top of a pyramid of participants. MLM is the epitome of an unfair and deceptive practice. You like to play poker? According to stats compiled by Dr. Jon Taylor of the Consumer Awareness institute, gambling is a better investment than MLM. MLM is rigged, and you have bought a ticket to an airplane that has already left the ground.
@sbohandley "Weighted heavily towards those who got in early". How? At one point everyone was "new" in the business. They weren't just sitting there at the top. What you say makes no sense. "bought a ticket to an airplane that already left ground". You can watch these little videos on youtube and quote them all you want, from people you don't even know probably living a lifestyle you dont want. Both statements I quoted seem to indicate saturation... which I already went over why it's not.
@PokerorDie To illustrate an extreme example of saturation, in a randomized survey of households in Utah County, which leads the nation in sponsorship of MLMs, there were four MLM distributors for every one customer who was not a part of the network of distributors. Is it any wonder MLMs from Utah County recruit aggressively in other areas? Of necessity, their sales are to recruits, and only rarely (if at all) to non-network customers.
@PokerorDie So with MLM , market saturation occurs quickly, where recruiters must move to other states to recruit, then to other countries to find new prospects. In effect, the MLM then becomes a de facto Ponzi scheme, in that income from the constant churning of new recruits in new markets is needed to repay earlier recruits who invested in saturated markets. This is why MLM promoters scramble to be the first ones in to a new country when it is opened up as a new market for recruitment.
@sbohandley I fail to understand this saturation stuff. It doesn't take much more than a hundered people(i can only speak for Amway) to really be somewhat successful. I know people who've built their business in a small town of 30,000 people. The amount of people being brought into the business is far less than the amount of people who have birthdays everyday. Oversaturation is just impossible unless the rate of recruitment exceeded the amount of people being born everyday.
@sbohandley And I'm a numbers guy so I know the failure rate of people who get involved in Amway, as well as poker. Yet just like Poker I know people who consistantly make money off of playing poker. There are people who make a living doing so. Do they have magic powers? No, they simply learned the game, worked harder than everybody else, and did what the 99% were not willing to do. That's why they succeeded. Why didn't they look at the failure rate of poker players and just go get a job?
@sbohandley I prefer to look at it like charity. I mean seriously, selfish bastards donate money to help people all the time. Why do they do it? So they can feel good about themselves. Someone in Amway wants to help me be successful so he can also be successful. I'm supposed to be pissed about this? It's a win win. It's not some cult of evil deceptive people trying to scam me out of 60 bucks, get around the business and the people and you will see that.
@PokerorDie If Amway is about hard work and ability, is it fair to recruit people into the scheme that don't have the interpersonal skills to succeed at it? Once again, the product is a front where very little outside sales are made to anyone outside Amway. This is why it is better to be at the top of the Pyramid. As far as MLM being deceptive and evil, take a look at what Chris Hansen uncovered about Amway. Seems like a dangerous cult scam to me. watch?v=ot31XhgE_XE
@sbohandley It is fair because if they don't succeed, you don't succeed. I have people who have succeeded who dedicate their time to helping me grow. You want to help people you bring into the business do well. I've seen the Chris Hansen documentary. Trust me, I did my homework before I got into this business. I've read and seen just about everything negative I could have. I went to FED (major fuction) and dude it was not like a "cult" like that video made it seem. Not at all man.
@PokerorDie Look, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Two things though... Don't alienate your friends and family and don't go deep into debt with this, and working for less than minimum wage. Also check out Penn and Teller's episode of BS/easy money watch?v=Y60XdZJG83U
@sbohandley Well ok then, I highly recommend you look into this for yourself. If I went off that Chris Hansen video and everything else on the internet I read I would probably would agree with you on everything. I would think it's just a big scam/cult and never done it. Get around the business, it won't cost you anything. K I've seen people sponsor their parents, you really think they are trying to rip their parents off? lol. K look into this thing, it was nice debating with ya lol.
@sbohandley Now don't get me wrong. This business has it's fair share of bad people, just like any business. Ok, but the principals that the company encourage are honest and fair. You don't have to be a piece of shit to succeed in this business. It's hard to understand it without actually being around it and around the people. I've met some good kind people (now i know, they just want my money right?). It's something you cant get unless you are around the people, I know I certainly didn't.
MLM products are sold by recruiting a revolving door of new "reps" who buy products to "do the business." And since people perceive the opportunity as dwindling with each new "rep," market saturation requires promoters to recruit elsewhere. So MLM's quickly evolve into Ponzi schemes, requiring the opening of new foreign markets and/or new product div's to repay earlier investors. It's not turnover, but recruiting to replace dropouts.
MLM's nearly always lead to certain loss for new recruits. The founders and a few are at the top of their pyramids of participants are enriched at the expense of a multitude of downline participants, approximately 99% of whom lose money. The sale of products is distributor-driven, not market driven. Most products are sold to new participants to get in on this "ground floor opportunity." Very few products are sold outside the "business". One more reason MLM is a Pyramid Scheme.
Does anyone really think Robert Kiyosaki is dumb enough to fall for joining a product based Pyramid Scheme at the bottom rung, peddling crap that can be bought for less money at Walmart?
@MLMsellsSnakeOil You are saying walmart produces quality? lol Amway's product are of pretty high quality actually, especially their health products. They are some of the best there is.
@PokerorDie I am not going to get into a debate about the quality of Amway's products because I didn't single them out. But, across the board the MLM products are over priced for what you get, to support a bloated Pyramid commission network. This is why MLM products are not in demand and not seen on retail shelves, and are mostly purchased by distributors who are forced to buy the products to participate in the commission and bonus structure. MLM products are often sold on Ebay for far less!
@MLMsellsSnakeOil If you are not going to debate it then why say anything in the first place? You put out your opinion and aren't willing to have a discussion if someone else has a different opinion? That's called being closed minded. I'm not saying everything from Amway is cheaper than Walmart 100% of the time, it's not like that. But if you create enough volume throughout your business the products that were once price comparable (or overpriced), are now cheaper become of compensation.
@MLMsellsSnakeOil Also I have to disagree with you when you say they have to overprice them to support the comission plan. That's what having no overhead or stock allows a company to do. A purely ecommerce company makes a substantial amount of money compared to a box store simply because they have no employees or builidings to maintain. They have the room for such a plan because they make more money, has nothing to do with overpricing anything.
@PokerorDie I have 5 questions for you. 1.Does Amway have endless chain recruiting until infinity? 2. Do you pay fees and a monthly quota of purchases to qualify for commission? 3. Does the upline make more money on the sale of the product than the person who made the sale? 4. Does Amway have more than 5 commission levels, with the only purpose being to enrich the top . 5. Is Advancement only attainable for recruiting or unattainable sales numbers without recruiting rather than appointment?
@MLMsellsSnakeOil 1. People are born everyday so if you are asking if it's "oversaturated", the answer is no and it never will be. 2. I personally do not have to spend any money to qualify for commissions. 3. No, i make more money than my upline when I sell a product, he makes nothing off what I sell. 4. Not sure what you mean. You get compensation from 3 to 29% 5. You don't need to sponsor but that's how the business works, through "networking".
@MLMsellsSnakeOil The only fee you pay is your initial registration fee and it's annual. You have to qualify for the commissions obviously, but I personally do not have to spend any of my own money to do that.
@MLMsellsSnakeOil sorry, i should have read the question a little better before i answered. Yes to number 1. You do not have a limit as to how many clients you can have, or as to how many people you sponsor.
@PokerorDie # 4 is if you have a distributor, a manager, a district manager, Regional vice president, and an executive VP that ALL get a cut off the sale YOU made, and paid at a higher rate. For Example in a Arbonne if the distributor sells the product they get 4% and and the manager gets 8%, and so on. So, in this instance you don't have direct selling. I know a woman who "Direct sells" and makes 50% commission, so she makes sales and doesn't bother recruiting her competition.
The issue is not TOTAL saturation as MLM apologists suggest, but MARKET saturation. In a town of 10,000 people, the notion of 10,000 distributors to serve them is absurd. Realistically, the MARKET could be saturated with 5 or 10 distributors. Each added distributor would reduce the opportunity for existing distributors, and resistance would build up for those who have been approached several times.
@PokerorDie a small percentage of sales nationally are MLM. 50 years of this should tell you something. In MLM, market collapse is manifested in CONTINUOUS COLLAPSE, meaning that the market is constantly collapsing, requiring contintual recruitment to replace those continually dropping out at a very high rate. If the MLM could not find new recruits in new markets, or recycle through old markets with new generations of prospects, or with new products, it would collapse entirely.
@MLMsellsSnakeOil My upline will never make money off of a sale I made. The added volume to their business from my sale will allow them to recieve higher bonuses that come specifically from Amway, it does not come out of the pockets of any distributors.
@PokerorDie So you are saying you have endless chain recruiting, but dont have to make monthly purchases and your upline doesn't make money off your sale. So I am unclear how do you advance or get promoted in the company? How do you qualify for commissions? What does your Amway site cost? What incentive does the company have for you to recruit and bring others into the business? I am not trying to play "gotcha", but my goal is to help others know the difference between MLM and direct selling.
@MLMsellsSnakeOil I make bonuses from the amount of volume I produce through my self (which is optional), clients, and other people i sponsor into the business and their clients. The incentive to bring others into the business is it will mean more volume for your business, while you are doing less of the work. You are just duplicating yourself. Creating more yous. It costs me about $60 annually. Did I explain it well enough for you to understand?
@MLMsellsSnakeOil People turn 18 every single day. There is no such thing as saturation and even if there wasn't new people being born everyday, the idea that 5 or 10 distributors will all sponsor 1000 people is absurd. You don't need new products also, the items being sold are consumable items, toilet paper, water, toothpaste, etc. they will always be bought somewhere.
@PokerorDie I never said 10 distributors would sponsor 1000 people. My point is that if you have 10 people in a town of 10,000 who are direct selling, 10 is all you would need to sell to a population that size as not everyone in town is going to want what you are selling. But, the problem with MLM chain recruiting is that there is no mechanism to regulate the needed amount of distributors. The goal is to recruit everyone and have them all trying to sell the same products to each other.
@MLMsellsSnakeOil Yes you are right, but you still seem to indicate it will become oversaturated in time. The amount of people willing to succeed in this type of business keeps the amount of distributors at a minimum. Allowing more prospects for the few.
@PokerorDie MLM'rs have been saying market saturation is a myth for over thirty years, but MLM still accounts for less than ½ of 1% of consumer purchases - in spite of the fact that the number of MLM companies has totaled in the thousands. MLM's come and go, as do new recruits, over 90% of whom drop out. Significant long-term MLM industry growth is a myth.
@MLMsellsSnakeOil I agree with some companies, disagree about Amway. The companies profits are growing every year, it's one of the largest private companies in the U.S. And with all retail business going towards ecommerce, Amway will continue to grow. What do you consider "long-term". 50+ years is a long time to me.
@YourFriendHerbie Perhaps you were introduced to a rather disgraceful group of IBO's and they gave you a false impression of the business. I have met many people since becoming an IBO and many of them are kind and sincere. I was never told everybody gets rich in Amway, in fact i was flat out told the statistics... almost every board plan i went to even one held by Brad Duncan, I was told that statistically, only a handful of people would understand it and only a small percentage would succeed.
"I was told that statistically, only a handful of people would understand it"
Read "The Emperor's New Clothes" by Hans Christian Anderson to see how this reverse psychology works. You don't want to be the idiot that doesn't "understand it", do you?
It's a subtle tactic that plays on people's pride, and it also serves to cement the cultic "us vs. them" mentality in Amway. There are the smart ones who "understand" and join Amway, and then there are all the stupid outsiders.
That isn't being "flat out told the statistics". That's having the statistics brushed over so as not to be overly scrutinized. 5% is a small percentage and so is 1/1000th of a percent. Now, if he told you something like "the average new IBO has less than a 1 in 10,000 chance to make emerald (and this number is likely less than 1 in 30,000), that would qualify as being "flat out told the statistics".
@JohnWDB1 It has nothing to do with pride or psychology. They say it because it's true. Here we go again with you, debating everything. If had I said I wasn't told the statistics, you would say something like "See how very cult like, not telling you your chances of success blah blah blah". Still never told me what a diamond makes, it's as if you don't know. How bout this, what is the annual diamond bonus?
Any sales pitch employs an understanding of human psychology. You have to be extraordinarily naive to say something like that...but that explains why you so eagerly joined Amway. PT Barnum was right.
"You act like everyone in my upline is some master psychologist and is a super manipulator."
All good salesmen manipulate human psychology. That doesn't make them master psychologists.
You said you were "flat out told the statistics". "A handful of people" is not in any way, shape, or form, a "statistic". So you either lied or you were too ignorant to know what is and what is not a statistic. I lean toward the latter and might have even guessed that about you.
I only debate the things you say that are false. If you quit saying things that are false, I won't have anything to debate.
@JohnWDB1 I was told things by my upline. I was never told DONT SPEAK TO ANYONE OUTSIDE OF AMWAY like that twat Sheibeler did. I was told, DONT TAKE IT FROM ME, DO YOUR RESEARCH. And so i did, apparently you didn't. You took Sheibelers word as engraved in stone which out question.
"You took Sheibelers word as engraved in stone which out question."
Sheibeler's book came out years after I started studying Amway (then Quixtar). His story would've had much less effect if it hadn't been so similar to prior stories. You're unsuccessfully trying to characterize me as an unthinking gull. This is common for cult members, though. You attempt to discredit critics rather than face the content of their criticism.
Even if I had accepted Scheibeler's book as gospel without verifying aspects of it, that wouldn't make his story more or less true. You keep forgetting this is about Amway, not about me and how I came to my conclusions. Your tactics are known in argumentation as "ad hominem" fallacies. Just one of the many, many logical fallacies you continually employ. You're an unsophisticated thinker, if we can even call you a thinker, and it shows glaringly in your writing.
You should go back and read the posts that ntrospect left for you that elucidate just one of the many problems with Amway. This isn't a revolutionary way to distribute product, it's a endless-recruitment money-transfer scheme. The FTC requires a certain amount of product be sold outside the pyramid in order to not be considered a pyramid scheme. Amway comes no where close to that level, but a powerful political lobby (2 largest campaign donations ever) protect it from regulation
At the time of the original FTC-Amway case, Amway still functioned as primariliy a direct sales company, and the majority of product was sold to friends, family, and neighbors of distributors. When the AMO's arose and tool sales became more lucrative, big pins focused on "buy from yourself" and "replicate yourself" strategies, because the best way to move more tapes was recruitment, not the selling of Amway product. Now self-consumption accounts for 90% of total sales.
@JohnWDB1 You claim the Amway case was "bought". That the only reason they were allowed to continue operating was because of a large political donation; however, this case was documented in 1979, it wasn't until over a decade later that that political donation was made.
You've made it clear you can't reason, but now it seems you can't even read. I never claimed the Amway case was "bought". Why do you incessantly put stuff in quotes that I didn't say? Do you know what quotes are for? I said explicitly that "at the time of the original FTC-Amway case, Amway still functioned as primarily a direct sales company". They didn't need to buy the case. The current lobby and recent contributions prevent "prevent the re-opening of the" case. READ.
@JohnWDB1 I find it hard to believe alot of what Sheibeler says. I think he said something about Dexter kicking someone in the crotch in front of a crowd of diamonds and higher pin IBOs. Alot of what is said in that book sounds pretty far fetched to me.
@JohnWDB1 Another thing about Sheibeler's book was him claiming the functions and events and purchasing motivational tools were all mandatory, when in fact they are all optional. What if I just build the business without the purchase of tools and going to functions?
Scheibeler never said they were explicity mandatory. Rather, he says "They were mandatory if you wanted help from your knowledgeable and wise upline." In other words, upline would exert subtle pressure on you to buy the tools and tell you things like "you must not be very serious" if you weren't buying tapes. Sure, buying tapes is always technically "optional", but upline manipulates fledgling IBO's into believing they are mandatory.
@JohnWDB1 I just don't understand how all of this could be true. I went to FED this year, saw countless couples come up on stage and tell their stories and tell us how they were financially independant and didn't have any debts to pay. Many of these people were not diamonds and didn't have any part in the "tool" business. SO many people, are you really telling me they are all lying? That none of them are really as rich as they seem? I just feel that someone would have noticed
"Many of these people were not diamonds and didn't have any part in the "tool" business."
Who said only diamonds have a part in the tool business? As I understand, tool breaks go down to the platinum level in many networks. Scheibeler got 50c per tape at the "direct" level (equivalent to platinum)
"SO many people, are you really telling me they are all lying? That none of them are really as rich as they seem?"
Embellishing is probably the better word. There is a strong culture of "fake it till you make it" in Amway. Those who would paint it in a favorable light say this is because you want to "act the part" and "dream big". Critics would say this is more than a little disingenuous as it misrepresents potential income at various levels.
@JohnWDB1 Sure those numbers are before expenses but I doubt expenses exceed more than 10,000. I being generous, I would imagine it's probably half of that. Eric was an Emerald, if those numbers are averages I'm sure his income was quite decent. Yet he was in debt? it just sounds a little odd to me.
@JohnWDB1 Or said something. Also, I know people who are probably only ruby or platinum level who talk about the amount of money they actually have. They usually say they make over 100k a year. Some who have been in the business for a long time tell how they have over 100k in the bank. I got to see their houses, their cars. Are they all really just lying to me? In front of their wife and kids and parents? I find it hard to believe they are all deceptive and lying right to our faces
"Also, I know people who are probably only ruby or platinum level who talk about the amount of money they actually have. They usually say they make over 100k a year."
It is possible for a platinum to "make" 100K per year, but very unlikely. In Amway, people are usually discouraged from telling you how much they make. When they do tell you, they frequently embellish. I'll refer you to Rob Fredricks on the Dateline video. Amazing his lie (250K/yr) left no impression on you.
I will PM you a link that I think you should read about IBO's misrepresenting their income. When you ask an IBO what he "makes", the wide majority of the time he will either a) tell you that he can't disclose that, b) say something ambiguous like "enough to comfortably supplement my income", c) flat out lie and claim he is making far more than he is (if he's making anything at all). These responses are so common that it's hard to believe them without seeing income tax forms.
@JohnWDB1 Also, speaking more on Sheibeler his income was incredibly low after "expenses".. yet he wrote everything off as a "business expense" making his income seem significantly less than it was.
Which is it? Did Scheibeler lie about his income or did he honestly report net income but it just seemed low due to so many deductions? You can't decide what you want to be true. If he lied, then it doesn't really matter what he deducted.
@JohnWDB1 Well maybe not lying, but misleading would be a more appropriate. And all the expenses you show me our outdated information. Saying a tape costs 6 bucks and each pin level gets a break. World Wide sells all the BSm stuff. A CD only costs 2.50 How is that supposed to be spread out over a huge organization?
@JohnWDB1 Quixtar reports that the average income for an "active" Quixtar IBO in 2005 was $115 a month ($1,380 annually), as documented in The Quixtar IBO Compensation Plan[12] and on a Quixtar website.[13] The average annual Quixtar income for an IBO that qualified at the Platinum level in 2005 (0.1683% of IBOs) was $47,472 and for a Diamond (.0120% of IBOs) it was $146,995. The largest single annual bonus (in addition to monthly incomes) for a Diamond was $1,083,421.
@JohnWDB1 One of my upline Crown's was showing the plan in a friends house (free to attend) and he was asking some of the platinums and rubys how much they were making and how much they expected their income to go up. I know some of the people he asked personally and I know they don't have any "tools". They all said they expected to have an increase of maybe 50 to 100k in the next year. So i don't understand, are they lying to impress us, or out of fear that people will think they fail
The FTC rules are known as "the seventy percent rule" and "the ten customer rule". They were originally rules Amway put in place to prevent the FTC from shutting them down in the 70's. FTC now applies the same standards to other companies to determine whether they are functioning as illegal pyramid schemes. Amway has not met these thresholds for 30 years. Political lobbies prevent the re-opening the FTC Amway case. Amway has made the 2 largest campaign contributions in history.
@JohnWDB1 You really are starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist. You act like everyone in my upline is some master psychologist and is a super manipulator.
@wmumart first, monavee and amway are different. Second, all those thousands of people you asked where probably didnt understand the business. Y? Cuz they think their business is gonna grow by itself. The Majority of people think its gonna be successful overnight. Thats not how it works. But then again, Amway is not for everybody but anybody can be succesful.
so ryt!wer just new to this business but i believe it first because i already love the products and so with the business..i know in my heart it will give me the life that we want no matter what happen,even a lot of negative people around just like @bigchinapi..just do ur work and we will do ours..work ur ass off til u got too old!!!
@lserxxx I understand your skepticism, I thought similarly at a time. However, not everybody puts in the work required to suceed in this business. It's not a lie I promise ya! I've met multiple successful people in this business, from the most successful person who makes multiple millions a year to people who only make a few thousand dollars to those who only make a few hundred. Most people don't succeed because they don't learn the best methods to run their own business, so they give up.
GOIN TO FUCKIN VEGAS BABY
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ch19631 1 week ago
rich people need poor people simple fact no business can survive without employees
RunThroughGridLock 2 weeks ago
@RunThroughGridLock Why do employees have to be poor? Why can't it be a win-win ?
IntegratedStrategy 6 days ago
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Christians should be on guard with the leaders teaching. I was involved for 4 yrs and never heard anything close to... “Take care, & be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”Lk12:15 "Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have..."Heb13:5 "...I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content."Phil4:11 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils...1Tim6:10
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MrFlaxsys 1 month ago
Macgracia since you think the tool and CDs are a scam in the Amwaygobal business. Did you go to college. Did you have to buy books and materials to do you class assignments . Are this two scam. Ever profession needs educational tools Amwaygobal isn't any different. With out them you won't be that successful if at all. It's not a requirement to get the tools nor is it a requirement to attend any conferences , but as a said before every profession, has educational tools for success theirs no guar
gstoro 1 month ago
@gstoro tools are legitimate & necessary in any profession. The problem for a Christian comes when these tools appeal to the heart instead of just simply teaching you how to sell a product. Amway tools are filled with materialism, love of $, covetousness, green, jealousy, idolatry etc. Colleges have it right when they leave heart matters/desires to the Bible. You only have to attend 1 large seminar to be tempted from stage to covet after another's possessions, all in the name of "motivation".
MACGARCIAcom 1 month ago 2
@MACGARCIAcom No you are wrong on a lot of levels. Might want to research some more in Bible and Amway. I did for 6 months before starting. I consider it a legitimate 'job/business' for Christians. Also our church administrator and pastor (he is not in Amway) are not against it. Our church is slavic very conservative and has over 1000 members.
DimaRange 5 days ago
@DimaRange you missed my comment. Amway IS a legitimate, legal, opportunity. Amway is actually a good idea! The problem, for a Christian, isn't Amway but the leaders & team's TEACHING. They don't stick to teaching how to sell the products or services like the average tools all jobs or colleges have. They dig deep into our PASSIONS & DREAMS. I'm almost positive (unless you go to prosperity gospel church) your leaders, if given the opportunity to study the TEACHING, would council you to stay away.
MACGARCIAcom 4 days ago
Macgracia the training system was necessary for the business . Ever business has a system. The problem with most who have know clue about business. The job you every started in having training for there employees to be successful no different then Amwaygobal.the difference we own our business your employees. You can't be successful in any thing with out education be it traditional or non traditional. Bible also say my people without vision shall perish.
gstoro 1 month ago
@gstoro you have taken that verse out of context & used it for your materialism like most Christian IBO's do. There are systems out there for just about everything but none like Amway's. They are the best (in my 4 years experience) at bringing the covetous heart out to desire materials, wealth, greed, jealousy, envy etc. If this is not true, name 1 CD that mentions what John told a soldier to do when he said to, "be content with your wages.” Lk 3:14 He could have said, "you should go diamond!"
MACGARCIAcom 1 month ago
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“Take care, & be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”Lk12:15 "Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have..."Heb13:5 "...I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content."Phil4:11 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils...1Tim6:10
MACGARCIAcom 2 months ago
Research the business.. Amway + network 21 are exseptionall great!! People who think amway is a scam are the ones that don't like getting out their comfort zone and have failed and can only blame amway because they cant and don't wanna accept responsibility..
arnah205 2 months ago
I am 20 years old. Live in California. Never had a job. Never want one. I have read a few of Kiyosaki's books. I am not a part of Amway but I do see Amway as an opportunity that I will join soon. I agree that the CD's and seminars are some sort of pyramid scam and tend to frustrate ex-IBO's with the successes of Emeralds and Diamonds. I'm trying to gather the pros and cons but I know that in the end I won't know if this is a business for me until I try it.
skinnyjuan23 2 months ago
@skinnyjuan23 try going to a convention when you get the chance, you'll see the big picture ( my opinion) Good Luck ! Peace , Love and Happiness :)
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danw1374 2 months ago
@danw1374 You want to know how they make so much? Why don't you buy their TRAINING MATERIALS and maybe someday you'll figure it out...
adam120890 2 months ago 2
@danw1374 it has been around because sin has been in the hearts of man since Adam & Eve. Amway is no scam, the "system" with all their CD's & seminars are the scam. This is where they feed and encourage IBO's hearts to covet. The Bible says,"Keep your life free from love of money, & be content with what you have..." Heb 13:5 Amway will never fail as long as systems keep feeding sinful hearts with this teaching to always WANT more & more. $ is not sin but the LOVE for it is. Christians beware.
MACGARCIAcom 2 months ago
@MACGARCIAcom i have a question for you about what you said. have you ever actually heard or read anything in the "system"?
cubanita365 2 months ago
@cubanita365 I have read every monthly book (4 yrs), listened & attended everything in the "system". Then when I became a Christian I noticed the system's teaching was un-Biblical. Some used Christian lingo but it was ALWAYS out of context. One in particular was the downplay of an employee position. They teach that it is SLAVE work, when the Bible never lowers or considers one position being better, more of a blessing, more choices, than the other. The teaching was also heavy on materialism.
MACGARCIAcom 2 months ago
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"Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have..." Heb 13:5
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michael20schumacher 2 months ago
in 1986for violating FTC 1997 rules Amway is not to misrepresent income According to Quixtar's own "disclosure document" (pdf) the average monthly gross income for an "active" IBO is $115 (or $1,380 annually). Just a reminder, gross income means before expenses such as travel, lodging, training, motivational materials, etc. Quixtar even admits that "there may be significant business expenses, mostly discretionary, that may be greater in relation to income in the first years of operation."
auntieSpam 2 months ago
@auntieSpam That's true, although one of the cool things about MLMs isn't the money itself. But whenever you join an MLM you legally become a business owner. Which entitles you to tax writeoffs. That means all those expenses are able to be written off in taxes. If you stop looking at them as things you have to pay for and just enjoy them as vacations, you're basically getting free vacations and products if you actually like Amway's products. That's a business expense.
NetworkingYouths 2 months ago
These 'scam products' are the best ones we've ever used! The pure fact that points out they are the best is they're the cheapest ones available on the market (of course, if you don't go and compare a Mercedes and a Lada and say 'but Mercedes is more expensive' ...wouldn't you say :-) )
Only the fact that I'm buying cheaper, better products says enough for itself.
If you're so into piramids, check out your current business and let me know one person earning more than the director. ;-)
ppinjuh 3 months ago
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hughhjo 3 months ago
All I can say to this Man, purely he is full of shit and the greatest bullshit is network marketing, they say everybody could be rich,but how?, suppose the world only contain 100 people and you are 99 one, you have only one left to make you rich, is that possible to be rich with one?!..the fact is without cruetly one can not be rich at all, if one doesn't damgae, exploit, deceive thousands of people there is no such thing as being rich!,...all i can say one must learn to be human than be rich!
ayobpala 3 months ago
apparently some guy doesnt understand what i mean by not replying to me what a failure in life
LiewDarWin 3 months ago
@LiewDarWin I understand you didn't want me to reply, but i'm not here to argue with you. I'm not sure where you got your information from but you may have been mis informed. Ponzi schemes are illegal. Amway has been around for 50+ years and have made tens of thousands of people financially free. Everyone starts out fresh, even those who have succeeded. So can I, so can you, so can anyone else. Don't let other people who have not been in the business misinform people like yourself.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie So what if Amway has been around for 50+ years? The Mafia has been for more than 50 years too. Lets assume you work in Amway and profit 10% for every sale. The annual revenue of Amway is 8.2 Billion and there are 3 Million of you. Do some simple maths and you get a profit of 200 dollars per person. Is that measly income able to give you financial freedom? I'm not even counting in those money you spend into the Amway membership buying the tapes and motivational dvds from your upline.
LiewDarWin 3 months ago
@LiewDarWin i am not in amway, but i still have to make this point..you mentioed there was 3 million people in amway, then you divided the amway income by the number of people..in order to find out what each person makes, the more usefull way would be to see how many people actually do any work..not all 3 million memeber are active, some joined, and never show up or do anything, you cant really count them in those numbers...its like taking 10 people, with a combined 1million dollar
carsonc29 2 months ago
@LiewDarWin annual income, by the numbers, everyone averages 100k a piece, but if one person makes 500k by themselves or one person is actuall unemployed, those 2 factors will drastically alter the average earners per person..you cant always go by the raw numbers, sometimes you have to look beyond mere statistics..just saying..take care
carsonc29 2 months ago
@PokerorDie Even the Government warns "Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. Some are pyramid schemes. It’s best not to get involved in plans where the money you make is based primarily on the number of distributors you recruit and your sales to them, rather than on your sales to people outside the plan who intend to use the products." This is clearly aimed towards Amway which is a blatant MLM based company and basically exploiting the US legal system.
LiewDarWin 3 months ago
@PokerorDie If you go to ex-cult.org/Groups/Amway/otherside/tosp25.htm you will realise how much more compared to the lower ranks the higher ranks will earn. This is the fundamental concept for MLM.
Also, if you have financial freedom I don't see the need for you to explain this to me and get me to join under you so you can earn from me and my downline or whatever the crap is.
LiewDarWin 3 months ago
@LiewDarWin "It’s best not to get involved in plans where the money you make is based primarily on the number of distributors you recruit and your sales to them, rather than on your sales to people outside the plan who intend to use the products." How is this targeted at Amway? You MUST have clients otherwise you don't recieve any bonuses... so there goes that little theory. I suggest you do more research. You unfortunately don't have enough information to justify these criticisms.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie You have not answered my questions yet. "You MUST have clients" This clearly shows that you need to scam others in order for you to profit, it is never enough for you to just sell your products. Bonuses, they are merely a percentage of what Amway profits from you. So what happens when everybody join Amway and there is no people on Earth left? Do you still profit? Also, since you love Amway so much, I don't see your name being in Forbes, neither any one of the top distributors.
LiewDarWin 3 months ago
@LiewDarWin This is unbelievable. You criticize the company saying that it's illegal because they only sell to people within the organization..I tell you that that's not true, because you have to have clients, people outside of the business that you sell to... THEN YOU CRITICIZE THAT!.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie Amway were investigated in the UK, a country where huge political donations don't influence political policy unlike the US, where amway has a long history of exchanging campaign contributions for political influence and favorable legislation. The findings from the British government were less than favorable to say the least, one interesting fact that came out of the investigation was that less then 5% of IBO's were selling to clients outside of amway, very poor indeed.
ntrospect 3 months ago
@ntrospect Citations for all of these statistics would be appreciated.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie Another report from amway itself, states that over 60% of first time non-IBO customers buy once & never return. IBO's have no real-world customer volume, just as the products themselves have no real world open market value. It's all about self-consumption. In 2008, of the 8.2 billion in “estimated” retail sales, 7.6 billion of it was self-consumption by the IBO’s themselves, only $643 million was sold to customers outside of the business.
ntrospect 3 months ago
@PokerorDie I'm only sixteen but I have basic knowledge in all these scams and crazy marketing techniques. obviously I have never heard of Amway until this video came out but after some research and common sense this is what I found so correct me whenever I'm wrong all the sources I used are from legitimate sites like their own site for their fiscal report and law.com for the employee information.
LiewDarWin 3 months ago
@LiewDarWin You have the wrong interpretation of what the government considers an illegal pyramid scheme. It's illegal if meets any of these 3 requirments: 1. you get commissions for registering other people. I signed someone up last month, I did not get 1 penny for him signing up. 2. It has no products moving through it. We have millions of products through over 600 partner stores. and 3. It has a large initial start up fee. Is 60 bucks alot? idk not really.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
Its just a sugar coated ponzi scam the higher you are the more you earn but at the bottom of the pyramid you're just paying to those on top and dont bother replying to me i dont want to hear your arguments
LiewDarWin 3 months ago 6
@LiewDarWin "I don't want to hear arguments"... wow and people give that a thumbs up? That's the most ignorant thing i've ever heard. You don't want to hear arguments or other opinions? I did, I listened to everyone's opinion and I still do. Yet you close your ears to knowledge and somehow you think you are right. Amazing.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@LiewDarWin I hope your close mindedness to hearing other's feedback doesn't hinder you from being successful in whatever avenue you pursue. Amway can be a guy at the top makes a lot of money, it can also be a guy at the top doesn't make any money. Amway takes work and belief in the people, the products, and the underlying core values that have kept Amway in business since 1959 and pushes it to grow year after year. One of the most profitable points in Amway is when you personally sell products.
benthepoolguy 2 months ago
@LiewDarWin Obliviously you don't know what a ponzi scam is.
StarlightAUTOBODY 2 months ago
@StarlightAUTOBODY Obviously you can't read last sentences
LiewDarWin 2 months ago
@LiewDarWin Not an attempt at arguing, I don't even like Amway. But isn't everything a pyramid scheme? Every large company has the people at the top making all the money while the people at the bottom make none. But the janitor at Microsoft's corporate office doesn't get to bring people in under him. He doesn't get to build anything, he just mops floors, and his paycheck at the end of the month will never change.
NetworkingYouths 2 months ago
@NetworkingYouths Okay I'll try to explain to you, the top people of other companies earn money, but not from the bottom people of the companies, they earn totally from sales. The bottom people provide labor only.However, Amway top earners sell DVDs and stuff to the bottom people of the company, making them pay for it, and they profit off the bottom people through referral sales, so theoretically Amway is a pyramid because the top earns from the bottom by the bottom paying the top.
LiewDarWin 2 months ago
Comment removed
NetworkingYouths 2 months ago
@LiewDarWin opportunity as a pyramid scheme.
NetworkingYouths 2 months ago
@LiewDarWin But they do profit off of their salespeople. In McDonald's they receive profit off of the advertising through increases in sales. They receive profit from their salespeople themselves. Then they receive profit from the people who they franchise out to. No person will ever be able to make more money than the person above him in a company that franchises out. I don't defend Amway because I don't believe in autoships as a good business. I just hope you don't see every network marketing
NetworkingYouths 2 months ago
@NetworkingYouths If you ever happen to be a lowest ranking worker in Mcdonalds, you don't have to pay the upper line a single cent, the company pays you directly for your labor. They do not profit from your labor as you are supposedly helping to maintain the company. But if you are in the lowest ranking for Amway or whatever that can be, the uplines will force you to buy their crappy dvds about motivation and you have to pay some sign up fee.
LiewDarWin 2 months ago
@LiewDarWin that is not entirely accuarate..if an employee works hard, helps the comapny be profitable, attract more customers, thus increasing the companies value, it does not financially benifit the employee who does the work, but it will effect the CEO and high level execs, who will see and increase in their pay, especially if the company is on wallstreet since a part of their pay is stock options, if the company value goes up, stock price goes up, it pays higher divedend, CEO pay
carsonc29 2 months ago
@LiewDarWin increases, the employee may not pay the upper people anything to work there, but make no mistake, CEO's and high level execs do benifit more financially from the employees hard work than the employee themselves..considering the $300-1 ceo-employee ratio in pay..sounds like someone is gettin rich off employees backs
carsonc29 2 months ago
@NetworkingYouths In a normal company, the harder you work, the chances of having an increase in rank is higher. In an MLM, no matter how hard you work, your upline always earns more than you even if he/she slacks because she profits off your referrals and sales too.
LiewDarWin 2 months ago
@LiewDarWin the same thing can be said in a real estate to agent system, if a broker wants to increase their income, easiest way they can do it, is to recruit and train more agents, since they will make a profit off whatever a agent does..only a broker can recruit people and profit off their sales, all an agent can do is work harder, put in more time to make more money, thats good for them, but great for the broker, since they dont have to be there at the sale to get paid
carsonc29 2 months ago
@NetworkingYouths Do the salespeople in other companies profit off other salespeople? no. this is completely different from MLM. In a pyramid scheme the lowest ranked people in the company always pay into for the profits
LiewDarWin 2 months ago
@LiewDarWin I'm not sure what MLMs you've been looking at, but in the right MLM you can in fact make more money than your upline if you build your organization right and work hard. That's what I do in fact like about the MLMs I work in. If I work hard, I can make more money than the people in my upline, and the people in my downline can make more money than me. Sure they profit off of your hard work, but that is in fact the same in any company.
NetworkingYouths 2 months ago
@LiewDarWin If I work for McDonald's, sure, I will never have to pay the company anything. But I will never make more than my manager. And he'll never make more than the franchisee. Etc. Sure, I can work hard, in hopes of a promotion, but the increase in money I make won't be up to me. I could lose my job at any moment if I decide I don't want to work to my fullest at that time. And with raises, the pay doesn't increase exponentially as it does in MLMs. It increases at a low % rate if averaged.
NetworkingYouths 2 months ago
@NetworkingYouths good point, direct selling gives a person more control over their time and a chance to gain more control over their income, since at a job your income is already predetermined before you evere clock in for work..anytime in business you get a guarentee there is an inherent trade off....a company will promise you certain pay for your time, but they determine the pay, and how long you can work for the company
carsonc29 2 months ago
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It all starts with a dream!
But "DREAM" is just a word.
Until u make it a reality: amazingautosystem.weebly.com
MultiAhka 3 months ago
You want be a millionaire? Start writing books "How to be a millionaire"
WironPL 3 months ago
@WironPL So write one...I'm sure it's that simple. All ya gotta do is write a book. You don't need to have the finanical experience in accumulating wealth. .. just write a book, go ahead a dude.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
hey hey! You ever thought about - Platinum MLM Leads (should be on google have a look)? People are reporting unbelivable things about it and my GF got amazing boost in sales and tons of sizzling Leads with it.
spnmath 3 months ago
If you are not good at selling products, DO NOT JOIN AMWAY
If you want to keep your current group of friends, DO NOT JOIN AMWAY
If you do not want to contribute to a group full of hucksters and scam artists, DO NOT JOIN AMWAY
RUN, DO NOT WALK, FROM ANYONE TRYING TO PEDDLE THIS CRAP TO YOU
HiveDes 3 months ago
@HiveDes My friend joined Amway not all that long ago and he makes over 150 bucks a month doing absolutely nothing lol. What's so bad about that? You don't need to be a salesperson, they have an awesome training site plus the mentorship from your upline that teaches you how to succeed. If my friends don't want to be a part of Amway I just say ok and thank them for their time... whats so bad about that?
PokerorDie 3 months ago
With saturation you have to consider that MOST everyone will not want the products or to be recruited. It will be too expensive for some, inconvenient for others. Many of your prospects may have already been recruited by the company in your town, or are have already been approached. So out of 10,000 people, only so many are going to want to buy the products, and only so many distributors are needed. When you have too many distributors, most of the purchases are made by the distributors.
sbohandley 3 months ago
@sbohandley The products are actually pretty sweet. Quality speaking they have great ratings, I'm not peddling some crap to people. 180 money back guarantee. I'm not some Kirby salesman, people actually like this stuff. Including myself. Here is my suggestion to you. Go find a an IBO whose been in for a while, Platinum level or something and ask questions. Don't just go off of some crap you've seen or read on the internet. An intelligent person looks into something before making a decision
PokerorDie 3 months ago
Right, well this duplication and getting bonuses to others you recruit into "the business" defines it as a Product Based Pyramid Scheme. Doing "less of the work" means you are making money off a down line, which is not direct selling. By creating more "you's", who create more "you's" beneath you is endless chain recruiting. According to Dr. Jon Taylor of the Consumer Awareness Institute, this is why Amway qualifies as a Product based Pyramid Scheme.
sbohandley 3 months ago
@sbohandley Well you can call it what you will. I personally believe every job in America is a pyramid scheme. You have one or two guys at the top who make all the money and do the least amount of work while all the dish washers and bag boys do all the work and make the least amount of money. In this business I get mentorship from those in my upline, financially independant people. They WANT you to succeed and are willing to help you. You won't find that at your job.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie These so called friends don't want you to succeed for YOUR benefit, but for their own selfish reasons. Leave Amway, and you will find out how fast these people will want NOTHING to do with you. As far as these "financially nonindependent" people go, there is a saying in MLM- "Fake it, until you make it". It is a fact that people in MLM pretend to be rich, for the very reasons why you look up to them. They often go into debt and tell lies to sell an image. This is a fraud itself.
sbohandley 3 months ago
@sbohandley Ok, so someone wants me to be rich for his own reasons. What do I care? The result is the same. And I know, i've heard that before. But that is not representative of the corporation itself. Not everyone pretends to be rich so they can scam you into the business. It certainly is not the practice of business that Amway promotes. You are claiming that everyone is just trying to rip me off and lying to me, you have not had the personal experiences I have had to make that claim.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@sbohandley How is any business different. You have to "recruit" employees, you sit around while they do all the work and you make all the money as an owner. I think that's more of a rip off because you will never have the opportunity to advance. You might get a 50 cent raise or a promotion every 5 years, big whoop. In this business you have the opportunity to grow. You do the more work, you make more money. Your income will go up based off of your performance.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie It isn’t the shape of the organization that is important, but the endless chain of recruitment of participants as primary customers. MLM requires the climbing of a pyramid in order to make enough money to profit to any significant degree. But unlike a corporate pyramid, in MLM and other types of pyramid schemes, virtually all of those at the bottom (the "downline") lose money (some a lot of money), where in a corporation, those at the bottom at least get a minimum wage.
sbohandley 3 months ago
@PokerorDie In MLM the opportunity to grow is an illusion. Most MLM compensation plans are weighted heavily towards those who got in early or scrambled to get to the top of a pyramid of participants. MLM is the epitome of an unfair and deceptive practice. You like to play poker? According to stats compiled by Dr. Jon Taylor of the Consumer Awareness institute, gambling is a better investment than MLM. MLM is rigged, and you have bought a ticket to an airplane that has already left the ground.
sbohandley 3 months ago
@sbohandley "Weighted heavily towards those who got in early". How? At one point everyone was "new" in the business. They weren't just sitting there at the top. What you say makes no sense. "bought a ticket to an airplane that already left ground". You can watch these little videos on youtube and quote them all you want, from people you don't even know probably living a lifestyle you dont want. Both statements I quoted seem to indicate saturation... which I already went over why it's not.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie To illustrate an extreme example of saturation, in a randomized survey of households in Utah County, which leads the nation in sponsorship of MLMs, there were four MLM distributors for every one customer who was not a part of the network of distributors. Is it any wonder MLMs from Utah County recruit aggressively in other areas? Of necessity, their sales are to recruits, and only rarely (if at all) to non-network customers.
sbohandley 3 months ago
@PokerorDie So with MLM , market saturation occurs quickly, where recruiters must move to other states to recruit, then to other countries to find new prospects. In effect, the MLM then becomes a de facto Ponzi scheme, in that income from the constant churning of new recruits in new markets is needed to repay earlier recruits who invested in saturated markets. This is why MLM promoters scramble to be the first ones in to a new country when it is opened up as a new market for recruitment.
sbohandley 3 months ago
@sbohandley I fail to understand this saturation stuff. It doesn't take much more than a hundered people(i can only speak for Amway) to really be somewhat successful. I know people who've built their business in a small town of 30,000 people. The amount of people being brought into the business is far less than the amount of people who have birthdays everyday. Oversaturation is just impossible unless the rate of recruitment exceeded the amount of people being born everyday.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@sbohandley And I'm a numbers guy so I know the failure rate of people who get involved in Amway, as well as poker. Yet just like Poker I know people who consistantly make money off of playing poker. There are people who make a living doing so. Do they have magic powers? No, they simply learned the game, worked harder than everybody else, and did what the 99% were not willing to do. That's why they succeeded. Why didn't they look at the failure rate of poker players and just go get a job?
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@sbohandley I prefer to look at it like charity. I mean seriously, selfish bastards donate money to help people all the time. Why do they do it? So they can feel good about themselves. Someone in Amway wants to help me be successful so he can also be successful. I'm supposed to be pissed about this? It's a win win. It's not some cult of evil deceptive people trying to scam me out of 60 bucks, get around the business and the people and you will see that.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie If Amway is about hard work and ability, is it fair to recruit people into the scheme that don't have the interpersonal skills to succeed at it? Once again, the product is a front where very little outside sales are made to anyone outside Amway. This is why it is better to be at the top of the Pyramid. As far as MLM being deceptive and evil, take a look at what Chris Hansen uncovered about Amway. Seems like a dangerous cult scam to me. watch?v=ot31XhgE_XE
sbohandley 3 months ago
@sbohandley It is fair because if they don't succeed, you don't succeed. I have people who have succeeded who dedicate their time to helping me grow. You want to help people you bring into the business do well. I've seen the Chris Hansen documentary. Trust me, I did my homework before I got into this business. I've read and seen just about everything negative I could have. I went to FED (major fuction) and dude it was not like a "cult" like that video made it seem. Not at all man.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie Look, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Two things though... Don't alienate your friends and family and don't go deep into debt with this, and working for less than minimum wage. Also check out Penn and Teller's episode of BS/easy money watch?v=Y60XdZJG83U
sbohandley 3 months ago
@sbohandley Well ok then, I highly recommend you look into this for yourself. If I went off that Chris Hansen video and everything else on the internet I read I would probably would agree with you on everything. I would think it's just a big scam/cult and never done it. Get around the business, it won't cost you anything. K I've seen people sponsor their parents, you really think they are trying to rip their parents off? lol. K look into this thing, it was nice debating with ya lol.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@sbohandley Now don't get me wrong. This business has it's fair share of bad people, just like any business. Ok, but the principals that the company encourage are honest and fair. You don't have to be a piece of shit to succeed in this business. It's hard to understand it without actually being around it and around the people. I've met some good kind people (now i know, they just want my money right?). It's something you cant get unless you are around the people, I know I certainly didn't.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
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MLM products are sold by recruiting a revolving door of new "reps" who buy products to "do the business." And since people perceive the opportunity as dwindling with each new "rep," market saturation requires promoters to recruit elsewhere. So MLM's quickly evolve into Ponzi schemes, requiring the opening of new foreign markets and/or new product div's to repay earlier investors. It's not turnover, but recruiting to replace dropouts.
MLMsellsSnakeOil 3 months ago
wow, i have to give it to Amway !. They even got an Asian guy working for them.
HistoryHmoobGuy 3 months ago
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MLM's nearly always lead to certain loss for new recruits. The founders and a few are at the top of their pyramids of participants are enriched at the expense of a multitude of downline participants, approximately 99% of whom lose money. The sale of products is distributor-driven, not market driven. Most products are sold to new participants to get in on this "ground floor opportunity." Very few products are sold outside the "business". One more reason MLM is a Pyramid Scheme.
MLMsellsSnakeOil 3 months ago
You are a liar and crook !!!@ Did you make a penny on Amway products??
No you did make money on scamming people and selling your books and seminars. Kiyosaki you are horrible t
Bigchinapl 3 months ago
Does anyone really think Robert Kiyosaki is dumb enough to fall for joining a product based Pyramid Scheme at the bottom rung, peddling crap that can be bought for less money at Walmart?
MLMsellsSnakeOil 3 months ago
@MLMsellsSnakeOil You are saying walmart produces quality? lol Amway's product are of pretty high quality actually, especially their health products. They are some of the best there is.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie I am not going to get into a debate about the quality of Amway's products because I didn't single them out. But, across the board the MLM products are over priced for what you get, to support a bloated Pyramid commission network. This is why MLM products are not in demand and not seen on retail shelves, and are mostly purchased by distributors who are forced to buy the products to participate in the commission and bonus structure. MLM products are often sold on Ebay for far less!
MLMsellsSnakeOil 3 months ago
@MLMsellsSnakeOil If you are not going to debate it then why say anything in the first place? You put out your opinion and aren't willing to have a discussion if someone else has a different opinion? That's called being closed minded. I'm not saying everything from Amway is cheaper than Walmart 100% of the time, it's not like that. But if you create enough volume throughout your business the products that were once price comparable (or overpriced), are now cheaper become of compensation.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@MLMsellsSnakeOil Also I have to disagree with you when you say they have to overprice them to support the comission plan. That's what having no overhead or stock allows a company to do. A purely ecommerce company makes a substantial amount of money compared to a box store simply because they have no employees or builidings to maintain. They have the room for such a plan because they make more money, has nothing to do with overpricing anything.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie I have 5 questions for you. 1.Does Amway have endless chain recruiting until infinity? 2. Do you pay fees and a monthly quota of purchases to qualify for commission? 3. Does the upline make more money on the sale of the product than the person who made the sale? 4. Does Amway have more than 5 commission levels, with the only purpose being to enrich the top . 5. Is Advancement only attainable for recruiting or unattainable sales numbers without recruiting rather than appointment?
MLMsellsSnakeOil 3 months ago
@MLMsellsSnakeOil 1. People are born everyday so if you are asking if it's "oversaturated", the answer is no and it never will be. 2. I personally do not have to spend any money to qualify for commissions. 3. No, i make more money than my upline when I sell a product, he makes nothing off what I sell. 4. Not sure what you mean. You get compensation from 3 to 29% 5. You don't need to sponsor but that's how the business works, through "networking".
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@MLMsellsSnakeOil The only fee you pay is your initial registration fee and it's annual. You have to qualify for the commissions obviously, but I personally do not have to spend any of my own money to do that.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@MLMsellsSnakeOil sorry, i should have read the question a little better before i answered. Yes to number 1. You do not have a limit as to how many clients you can have, or as to how many people you sponsor.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie # 4 is if you have a distributor, a manager, a district manager, Regional vice president, and an executive VP that ALL get a cut off the sale YOU made, and paid at a higher rate. For Example in a Arbonne if the distributor sells the product they get 4% and and the manager gets 8%, and so on. So, in this instance you don't have direct selling. I know a woman who "Direct sells" and makes 50% commission, so she makes sales and doesn't bother recruiting her competition.
MLMsellsSnakeOil 3 months ago
The issue is not TOTAL saturation as MLM apologists suggest, but MARKET saturation. In a town of 10,000 people, the notion of 10,000 distributors to serve them is absurd. Realistically, the MARKET could be saturated with 5 or 10 distributors. Each added distributor would reduce the opportunity for existing distributors, and resistance would build up for those who have been approached several times.
MLMsellsSnakeOil 3 months ago
@PokerorDie a small percentage of sales nationally are MLM. 50 years of this should tell you something. In MLM, market collapse is manifested in CONTINUOUS COLLAPSE, meaning that the market is constantly collapsing, requiring contintual recruitment to replace those continually dropping out at a very high rate. If the MLM could not find new recruits in new markets, or recycle through old markets with new generations of prospects, or with new products, it would collapse entirely.
MLMsellsSnakeOil 3 months ago
@MLMsellsSnakeOil My upline will never make money off of a sale I made. The added volume to their business from my sale will allow them to recieve higher bonuses that come specifically from Amway, it does not come out of the pockets of any distributors.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie So you are saying you have endless chain recruiting, but dont have to make monthly purchases and your upline doesn't make money off your sale. So I am unclear how do you advance or get promoted in the company? How do you qualify for commissions? What does your Amway site cost? What incentive does the company have for you to recruit and bring others into the business? I am not trying to play "gotcha", but my goal is to help others know the difference between MLM and direct selling.
MLMsellsSnakeOil 3 months ago
@MLMsellsSnakeOil I make bonuses from the amount of volume I produce through my self (which is optional), clients, and other people i sponsor into the business and their clients. The incentive to bring others into the business is it will mean more volume for your business, while you are doing less of the work. You are just duplicating yourself. Creating more yous. It costs me about $60 annually. Did I explain it well enough for you to understand?
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@MLMsellsSnakeOil People turn 18 every single day. There is no such thing as saturation and even if there wasn't new people being born everyday, the idea that 5 or 10 distributors will all sponsor 1000 people is absurd. You don't need new products also, the items being sold are consumable items, toilet paper, water, toothpaste, etc. they will always be bought somewhere.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie I never said 10 distributors would sponsor 1000 people. My point is that if you have 10 people in a town of 10,000 who are direct selling, 10 is all you would need to sell to a population that size as not everyone in town is going to want what you are selling. But, the problem with MLM chain recruiting is that there is no mechanism to regulate the needed amount of distributors. The goal is to recruit everyone and have them all trying to sell the same products to each other.
MLMsellsSnakeOil 3 months ago
@MLMsellsSnakeOil Yes you are right, but you still seem to indicate it will become oversaturated in time. The amount of people willing to succeed in this type of business keeps the amount of distributors at a minimum. Allowing more prospects for the few.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie MLM'rs have been saying market saturation is a myth for over thirty years, but MLM still accounts for less than ½ of 1% of consumer purchases - in spite of the fact that the number of MLM companies has totaled in the thousands. MLM's come and go, as do new recruits, over 90% of whom drop out. Significant long-term MLM industry growth is a myth.
MLMsellsSnakeOil 3 months ago
@MLMsellsSnakeOil I agree with some companies, disagree about Amway. The companies profits are growing every year, it's one of the largest private companies in the U.S. And with all retail business going towards ecommerce, Amway will continue to grow. What do you consider "long-term". 50+ years is a long time to me.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@YourFriendHerbie Perhaps you were introduced to a rather disgraceful group of IBO's and they gave you a false impression of the business. I have met many people since becoming an IBO and many of them are kind and sincere. I was never told everybody gets rich in Amway, in fact i was flat out told the statistics... almost every board plan i went to even one held by Brad Duncan, I was told that statistically, only a handful of people would understand it and only a small percentage would succeed.
PokerorDie 4 months ago
@PokerorDie
"I was told that statistically, only a handful of people would understand it"
Read "The Emperor's New Clothes" by Hans Christian Anderson to see how this reverse psychology works. You don't want to be the idiot that doesn't "understand it", do you?
It's a subtle tactic that plays on people's pride, and it also serves to cement the cultic "us vs. them" mentality in Amway. There are the smart ones who "understand" and join Amway, and then there are all the stupid outsiders.
JohnWDB1 3 months ago
@PokerorDie
"only a small percentage would succeed"
That isn't being "flat out told the statistics". That's having the statistics brushed over so as not to be overly scrutinized. 5% is a small percentage and so is 1/1000th of a percent. Now, if he told you something like "the average new IBO has less than a 1 in 10,000 chance to make emerald (and this number is likely less than 1 in 30,000), that would qualify as being "flat out told the statistics".
JohnWDB1 3 months ago
@JohnWDB1 It has nothing to do with pride or psychology. They say it because it's true. Here we go again with you, debating everything. If had I said I wasn't told the statistics, you would say something like "See how very cult like, not telling you your chances of success blah blah blah". Still never told me what a diamond makes, it's as if you don't know. How bout this, what is the annual diamond bonus?
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie
"It has nothing to do with pride or psychology."
Any sales pitch employs an understanding of human psychology. You have to be extraordinarily naive to say something like that...but that explains why you so eagerly joined Amway. PT Barnum was right.
"You act like everyone in my upline is some master psychologist and is a super manipulator."
All good salesmen manipulate human psychology. That doesn't make them master psychologists.
JohnWDB1 3 months ago
@PokerorDie
"Here we go again with you, debating everything."
You said you were "flat out told the statistics". "A handful of people" is not in any way, shape, or form, a "statistic". So you either lied or you were too ignorant to know what is and what is not a statistic. I lean toward the latter and might have even guessed that about you.
I only debate the things you say that are false. If you quit saying things that are false, I won't have anything to debate.
JohnWDB1 3 months ago
@JohnWDB1 I was told things by my upline. I was never told DONT SPEAK TO ANYONE OUTSIDE OF AMWAY like that twat Sheibeler did. I was told, DONT TAKE IT FROM ME, DO YOUR RESEARCH. And so i did, apparently you didn't. You took Sheibelers word as engraved in stone which out question.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie
"You took Sheibelers word as engraved in stone which out question."
Sheibeler's book came out years after I started studying Amway (then Quixtar). His story would've had much less effect if it hadn't been so similar to prior stories. You're unsuccessfully trying to characterize me as an unthinking gull. This is common for cult members, though. You attempt to discredit critics rather than face the content of their criticism.
JohnWDB1 3 months ago
@PokerorDie
Even if I had accepted Scheibeler's book as gospel without verifying aspects of it, that wouldn't make his story more or less true. You keep forgetting this is about Amway, not about me and how I came to my conclusions. Your tactics are known in argumentation as "ad hominem" fallacies. Just one of the many, many logical fallacies you continually employ. You're an unsophisticated thinker, if we can even call you a thinker, and it shows glaringly in your writing.
JohnWDB1 3 months ago
@PokerorDie
You should go back and read the posts that ntrospect left for you that elucidate just one of the many problems with Amway. This isn't a revolutionary way to distribute product, it's a endless-recruitment money-transfer scheme. The FTC requires a certain amount of product be sold outside the pyramid in order to not be considered a pyramid scheme. Amway comes no where close to that level, but a powerful political lobby (2 largest campaign donations ever) protect it from regulation
JohnWDB1 3 months ago
@JohnWDB1 Amway isn't regulated now? Lol man this is hilarious. Where is that fact, or is this just you theorizing on your conspiracy?
PokerorDie 3 months ago
What is the minimum amount of money that the FTC requires and can you tell me where you found this information? thanks
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie
At the time of the original FTC-Amway case, Amway still functioned as primariliy a direct sales company, and the majority of product was sold to friends, family, and neighbors of distributors. When the AMO's arose and tool sales became more lucrative, big pins focused on "buy from yourself" and "replicate yourself" strategies, because the best way to move more tapes was recruitment, not the selling of Amway product. Now self-consumption accounts for 90% of total sales.
JohnWDB1 3 months ago
@JohnWDB1 This 70% rule has no purpose with Amway in current times because you don't have to buy products before selling them.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@JohnWDB1 You claim the Amway case was "bought". That the only reason they were allowed to continue operating was because of a large political donation; however, this case was documented in 1979, it wasn't until over a decade later that that political donation was made.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@PokerorDie
You've made it clear you can't reason, but now it seems you can't even read. I never claimed the Amway case was "bought". Why do you incessantly put stuff in quotes that I didn't say? Do you know what quotes are for? I said explicitly that "at the time of the original FTC-Amway case, Amway still functioned as primarily a direct sales company". They didn't need to buy the case. The current lobby and recent contributions prevent "prevent the re-opening of the" case. READ.
JohnWDB1 3 months ago
@JohnWDB1 I find it hard to believe alot of what Sheibeler says. I think he said something about Dexter kicking someone in the crotch in front of a crowd of diamonds and higher pin IBOs. Alot of what is said in that book sounds pretty far fetched to me.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@JohnWDB1 Another thing about Sheibeler's book was him claiming the functions and events and purchasing motivational tools were all mandatory, when in fact they are all optional. What if I just build the business without the purchase of tools and going to functions?
PokerorDie 2 months ago
@PokerorDie
Scheibeler never said they were explicity mandatory. Rather, he says "They were mandatory if you wanted help from your knowledgeable and wise upline." In other words, upline would exert subtle pressure on you to buy the tools and tell you things like "you must not be very serious" if you weren't buying tapes. Sure, buying tapes is always technically "optional", but upline manipulates fledgling IBO's into believing they are mandatory.
JohnWDB1 2 months ago
@JohnWDB1 I just don't understand how all of this could be true. I went to FED this year, saw countless couples come up on stage and tell their stories and tell us how they were financially independant and didn't have any debts to pay. Many of these people were not diamonds and didn't have any part in the "tool" business. SO many people, are you really telling me they are all lying? That none of them are really as rich as they seem? I just feel that someone would have noticed
PokerorDie 2 months ago
@PokerorDie
"Many of these people were not diamonds and didn't have any part in the "tool" business."
Who said only diamonds have a part in the tool business? As I understand, tool breaks go down to the platinum level in many networks. Scheibeler got 50c per tape at the "direct" level (equivalent to platinum)
JohnWDB1 2 months ago
@PokerorDie
"SO many people, are you really telling me they are all lying? That none of them are really as rich as they seem?"
Embellishing is probably the better word. There is a strong culture of "fake it till you make it" in Amway. Those who would paint it in a favorable light say this is because you want to "act the part" and "dream big". Critics would say this is more than a little disingenuous as it misrepresents potential income at various levels.
JohnWDB1 2 months ago
@JohnWDB1 Sure those numbers are before expenses but I doubt expenses exceed more than 10,000. I being generous, I would imagine it's probably half of that. Eric was an Emerald, if those numbers are averages I'm sure his income was quite decent. Yet he was in debt? it just sounds a little odd to me.
PokerorDie 2 months ago
@JohnWDB1 Or said something. Also, I know people who are probably only ruby or platinum level who talk about the amount of money they actually have. They usually say they make over 100k a year. Some who have been in the business for a long time tell how they have over 100k in the bank. I got to see their houses, their cars. Are they all really just lying to me? In front of their wife and kids and parents? I find it hard to believe they are all deceptive and lying right to our faces
PokerorDie 2 months ago
@PokerorDie
"Also, I know people who are probably only ruby or platinum level who talk about the amount of money they actually have. They usually say they make over 100k a year."
It is possible for a platinum to "make" 100K per year, but very unlikely. In Amway, people are usually discouraged from telling you how much they make. When they do tell you, they frequently embellish. I'll refer you to Rob Fredricks on the Dateline video. Amazing his lie (250K/yr) left no impression on you.
JohnWDB1 2 months ago
@JohnWDB1 how much was Fredricks making?
PokerorDie 2 months ago
@PokerorDie
I will PM you a link that I think you should read about IBO's misrepresenting their income. When you ask an IBO what he "makes", the wide majority of the time he will either a) tell you that he can't disclose that, b) say something ambiguous like "enough to comfortably supplement my income", c) flat out lie and claim he is making far more than he is (if he's making anything at all). These responses are so common that it's hard to believe them without seeing income tax forms.
JohnWDB1 2 months ago
@JohnWDB1 Also, speaking more on Sheibeler his income was incredibly low after "expenses".. yet he wrote everything off as a "business expense" making his income seem significantly less than it was.
PokerorDie 2 months ago
@PokerorDie
Which is it? Did Scheibeler lie about his income or did he honestly report net income but it just seemed low due to so many deductions? You can't decide what you want to be true. If he lied, then it doesn't really matter what he deducted.
JohnWDB1 2 months ago
@JohnWDB1 Well maybe not lying, but misleading would be a more appropriate. And all the expenses you show me our outdated information. Saying a tape costs 6 bucks and each pin level gets a break. World Wide sells all the BSm stuff. A CD only costs 2.50 How is that supposed to be spread out over a huge organization?
PokerorDie 2 months ago
@JohnWDB1 Quixtar reports that the average income for an "active" Quixtar IBO in 2005 was $115 a month ($1,380 annually), as documented in The Quixtar IBO Compensation Plan[12] and on a Quixtar website.[13] The average annual Quixtar income for an IBO that qualified at the Platinum level in 2005 (0.1683% of IBOs) was $47,472 and for a Diamond (.0120% of IBOs) it was $146,995. The largest single annual bonus (in addition to monthly incomes) for a Diamond was $1,083,421.
PokerorDie 2 months ago
@JohnWDB1 One of my upline Crown's was showing the plan in a friends house (free to attend) and he was asking some of the platinums and rubys how much they were making and how much they expected their income to go up. I know some of the people he asked personally and I know they don't have any "tools". They all said they expected to have an increase of maybe 50 to 100k in the next year. So i don't understand, are they lying to impress us, or out of fear that people will think they fail
PokerorDie 2 months ago
@PokerorDie
"They all said they expected to have an increase of maybe 50 to 100k in the next year."
You are impressed by what people expect to be making next year?
JohnWDB1 2 months ago
@JohnWDB1
The FTC rules are known as "the seventy percent rule" and "the ten customer rule". They were originally rules Amway put in place to prevent the FTC from shutting them down in the 70's. FTC now applies the same standards to other companies to determine whether they are functioning as illegal pyramid schemes. Amway has not met these thresholds for 30 years. Political lobbies prevent the re-opening the FTC Amway case. Amway has made the 2 largest campaign contributions in history.
JohnWDB1 3 months ago
@JohnWDB1 You really are starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist. You act like everyone in my upline is some master psychologist and is a super manipulator.
PokerorDie 3 months ago
@wmumart first, monavee and amway are different. Second, all those thousands of people you asked where probably didnt understand the business. Y? Cuz they think their business is gonna grow by itself. The Majority of people think its gonna be successful overnight. Thats not how it works. But then again, Amway is not for everybody but anybody can be succesful.
Skylinehi1515 4 months ago
@Skylinehi1515
so ryt!wer just new to this business but i believe it first because i already love the products and so with the business..i know in my heart it will give me the life that we want no matter what happen,even a lot of negative people around just like @bigchinapi..just do ur work and we will do ours..work ur ass off til u got too old!!!
cjoneurz 3 months ago
If this was even fucking true everybody would be damn rich just saying all this is a damn lie
lserxxx 4 months ago
@lserxxx I understand your skepticism, I thought similarly at a time. However, not everybody puts in the work required to suceed in this business. It's not a lie I promise ya! I've met multiple successful people in this business, from the most successful person who makes multiple millions a year to people who only make a few thousand dollars to those who only make a few hundred. Most people don't succeed because they don't learn the best methods to run their own business, so they give up.
PokerorDie 4 months ago
How is this a scam? Stop spouting "it's a scam! it's a scam!" and start explaining why you think it's a scam.
PokerorDie 4 months ago 9