Let's talk about those who condone a lifestyle of the repression of women & actively turn a blind eye to their deaths.
Lets talk about those who claim homosexuality a mental illness & jail them.
Let's talk about slavery, child labour and the sex trade.
Let's talk about fair trade?
And yet when TSA has a position on the definition of marriage - that oposes your own, that is hurtful? Thanks again for taking the time with me today. Good night.
@Dizzydizzy17 Discrimination is discrimination. There are varying degrees of it, from those who outwardly support the execution of gays (which is consistent with the Bible I might add), to those who, as you say, disagree with the constitutional definition of marriage in this country.
@Dizzydizzy17 And the Salvation has, as I've explained to you, done more than just politely express their opinion against equal marriage. At nearly every turn they've used their resources to oppose expanding equality to LGBT Canadians. Up until 1986 homosexuality was a criminal offence in New Zealand. When a bill was proposed that would decriminalise consensual sex between men the SA active throughout the country gathering signatures for a petition to prevent the bill from passing.
TSA has never deem the lifestyle of a gay person is less than that of a straight person. All I read is a position they put forward regarding the classification of marriage - what offends you should offend those who are living in common law. But I don't hear that. I don't see any clamouring to Parliament Hill of common law couples screeming commonlawphobia against TSA.
@Dizzydizzy17 Well, as it happens marital status is an area of protection in the BC Human Rights Code. Perhaps I will look into this a bit more and make a video along those lines... I would be interested to know, for example, how many people in common law relationships have killed themselves in the last year due to societal discrimination against them.
@Dizzydizzy17 Studies show, in Canada at least, that homophobic discrimination is one of the most prevalant forms of discrimination in this country. This is especially true in schools. A 2003 report, for instance, noted that homophobic harassment was identified as a major problem in every school district in this province. Further studies, reports, and news reports of youth suicides only confirm these grim statistics. The Salvation Army is part of what's wrong.
Zinna Jones - I viewed her videos today. Her rants are not truthful - cherry picking - half truths to forward her own political agenda.
Regarding TSA - public money was not used in their presentation at the parliamentary committee - internal funds from SA congregations funded their appearance before the parliamentary committee. I've been taught that you don't distort facts that you don't have the full story about.
@Dizzydizzy17 Everything she has said on the Sally Anne's record with respect to LGBT issues is independently verifiable. Even if the Salvation Army does do wonderful work in other areas, that does not negate the fact that they are a socially conservative, religious organisation that has fought against LGBT equality over the years.
Position Statement on Gay & Lesbian Sexuality - Continued
We believe that we are accountable for the ways in which we express our sexuality. While recognizing the challenge that this presents, The Salvation Army believes firmly in the power of God’s grace to enable all to live in a manner that is pleasing to Him.
Position Statement on Gay & Lesbian Sexuality of The Salvation Army -Continued...
The Salvation Army believes that God’s will for the expression of sexual intimacy is revealed in the Bible, and that living fully in accordance with biblical standards calls for chastity outside of heterosexual marriage and faithfulness within it. We do not believe that same‐sex attraction is blameworthy and we oppose the vilification and mistreatment of gays and lesbians.
Position Statement on Gay & Lesbian Sexuality of The Salvation Army
The Salvation Army upholds the dignity of all persons. For this reason, and in obedience to the example of Jesus Christ, whose compassionate love is all‐embracing, The Salvation Army does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation in the delivery of its services.
I do not believe that you have it correct when it comes to The Salvation Army's position on homosexuality. Your take is distorted & slanted - not completely honest in approach - it's cherry picking.
Nor do I believe you have the correct perception when it comes to views you don't agree with based on one's genuine heart felt faith & calling it homophobia. Could you be accused of badgering until one agrees with your opinion? Are you "faithphobic" when one does not agree with your position?
"My Faith" = "My Testimony": I have experienced a real, vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ that has transformed my life. I am living proof.
Many scientific investigation begins with belief that is not based on proof: They begin exploration through the scientific method of study as a result of an element of faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. That is how we have built the society of technology and medical innovations we have today.
@Dizzydizzy17 They begin their study with confidence that the experiment or whatever will do what they hypothesize. They can show how and why their experiment does what it does and give instructions on how it can be reproduced by anyone with the right tools. There is, however, absolutely no evidence to support the existence of a God and your "vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ"? That's all in your head, kiddo.
Hi Nathaniel: I began my investigation with a clean sheet. I saw what others had in their life - I looked long & hard & came to the conclusion that, Jesus Christ is real. My testimony is my testimony. It's fact. I have experienced it.
Becareful of how you judge as you can be accused of being judgemental of my beliefs & even "phobic" in the same way you stand in condemnation of those who do not hold to your personal belief system. It could be said that what you believe is "all in your head."
@Dizzydizzy17 I tend to believe in things that can be supported with evidence and you don't need me to tell you that are free to believe in whatever you want. But when people use their unsupported claims in things like religion to marginalise or oppress that's when I have a problem.
Are you saying what I believe leads to oppression??? Who is judging & creating fear in those who do not agree with you by calling them homophobic? Are you referring to the context of TSA? I believe that is the context of why we are in discussion.
I am not wanting to go to old flogged out history that is tiresome & does not speak to the reality of TSA & their equally valid positions that you may not agree with. Am I homophobic for disagreeing with you and agreeing with TSA?
By the way, I agree with your position on the right of every person to decent housing, access to food, education and medical care.
I like how The Salvation Army has brought some of these issues to the for front by running a campaign I have seen on YouTube and on TV called the "Dignity Project." Basic human dignity is a right for person. And the money spent on the Olympic!!!! Blows my mind!
@Dizzydizzy17 I didn't say what you believe leads to oppression 'cause I'm not exactly sure what you believe. The Salvation Army's position on homosexuality isn't rooted in anything scientific or factual. They base their position on the Bible which is just a book of claims. No more valid than Lord of the Rings or Little Red Riding Hood.
@Dizzydizzy17 While many churches are affirming of LGBT people other congregations, such as the Salvation Army, have a long and well-documented history of fighting against basic human rights protections for LGBT people around the world.
The Salvation Army's beliefs are based on a deep seated belief in the Bible as the inspired word of God who loves all of his creation. This is part of faith - faith in a God who resides outside our ability to fully comprehend him without scripture.
The Salvation Army is affirming - it embraces all people and embrace them to worship and become members of their churches. Even "legally married" gay couples with their children have been embraced into the fellowship.
@Dizzydizzy17 Again, the Bible is a book conceived, written, translated, edited, compiled, and rewritten by men. There is absolutely no evidence that it was inspired by any deity, or that any deity exists. If people want to believe this, that's fine, but if you want to base any kind of policy on it that has any impact on people outside of your community then I have a problem.
The Bible was written by men-inspired by God.There is no base line in your life to understand this.The conversation has to move beyond your disblief in God & to the fact that not all people hold the same views of yourself & it's ok to be on opposing sides of an issue without being accused of being homophobic. Even if my point of view is based on the reality that God's Word is my guide in how I live my life & view the world, it should be just a valid as those influences that form your world view.
@Dizzydizzy17 You claim the Bible was written by men inspired by "God" but do you have any evidence to support this? Probably not. I don't believe someone is homophobic for what they think or believe - but what they do. I have made the argument that the Salvation Army is a homophobic organisation and there is absolutely valid justification for these policies and actions.
Hey, I would suggest you read the book, "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. He was an atheist lawyer who set out to disprove once and for all belief in God. Unfortunately for the cause of the Athesist movement he discovered the reality of God.
Subsequent to his first book, he has written, "The Case For Faith." Both of these books are interesting and easy reads. At the end of these books you just may continue to hold to your views - but at least you were honest in affirming your position.
@Dizzydizzy17 And no, I'm sorry, but the things that influence my world view are grounded in science and other things that can be shown to be true. You may not agree with my positions, and that's fine but I can come back at you and point out that there is no evidence to support the existence of your deity, which seems to be the root of your argument.
@Dizzydizzy17 Scientific principles can be shown to be true through research, evidence, and studies. Like I said before, the experiments and stuff that show something to be true can be repeated and demonstrated by anyone with the right tools etc. When you fight against LGBT peoples' right to marry, live in a safe and supportive community, or have consentual sex with their partner without fear of arrest I would call that hate.
@NathanielChristopher And BTW the definition of homophobia, as defined in the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, also mentions prejudice against LGBT people. This is also the commonly understood meaning of the term.
"Dislike, hostility, or unjust behaviour deriving from preconceived and unfounded opinions: accusations of racial prejudice."
This still does not apply to what you are saying about the Salvation Army. You continue to base your label of homophobia based on an opinion that TSA is in disagreement with you.
Based on what I have read & heard, you can be accused of generating false understandings that can people to discriminate against TSA and those hold to faith.
@Dizzydizzy17 Again kiddo, I've shown that not only their words, but their actions in court, the political arena, and elsewhere have set out to adversely impact the lives of LGBT people. I will say it again, the Salvation Army is a homophobic organisation.
I see none of these attributes of homophobia associated with The Salvation Army.
This brings me to the point that you need to be careful how one uses the homophobic term as it is wrong. You can make people afraid to express opinions that you do not agree for fear of being labelled. That's called oppression! The homophobic term is used too liberally against those who disagree with your own opinion. It's wrong. It would be just as wrong for me to label you for not agreeing with me.
@Dizzydizzy17 Hey kiddo, if the shoe fits... Nobody likes being called a bigot, a racist, a homophobe or any of that. There was a time, within living memory, when polite people tolerated organisations that had had a public position against LGBT people and their rights, but society has changed and Canadians have evolved. LGB equality is enshrined in our constitution and supported by a majority of Canadians. These days there's a certain stigma attached to bigoted people...
Having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one’s own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others.
Now, I believe the shoe fits.
I'm afraid that the GLBT movement needs to becareful facilitating such a bigoted label upon those who opposing views. They are becoming what they are accusing organizations such as TSA of being. They are putting forth false statements - which by the way are lies.
The Salvation Army's position on gay marriage is based on the Biblical model of marriage - heterosexual in form. In giving voice to their belief this does not equate them in fighting against basic human rights. They are living out a deepseated faith that does not in any way infringe on how one expresses and lives out their sexual orientation. Having one voice their disagreement and actively proclaim their position against the Salvation Army does not necessarily make them anti- Salvation Army.
@Dizzydizzy17 They actively tried to prevent same-sex marriage from happening - not just fgor their own followers or other Christians - but for everyone. In New Zealand they actively campaigned against the repeal of sodomy laws there back in the '80s and the list goes on. They actively work to build a world where people like me are denied some of the basic human rights afforded in our Charter. They aren't just sitting in a vacuum praying - they're fuckin' hurting people.
Sorry for missing this comment. TSA has the right in democratic country such as Canada to put forward their opinions without any hate or contempt nor with any threats to withhold services.They don't trounce on yours nor any one elses rights. They celebrate & value your right to your opinions & I hope you celebrate their opinions. That is what makes our country of Canada such a great nation - where rights are enshrined after all opinions have been put forward. Gay marriage is a case in point.
@Dizzydizzy17 I'm starting to think that you didn't actually watch my video... The Salvation Army has, on many ocassions, tried to stamp out my rights as a gay person. The Salvation Army has, in this country and elsewhere, continuously fought against the rights of LGBT people. The Salvation Army avails their time, and donated money, to fight against LGBT equality in court and in the political sphere for things like same-sex marriage, spousal bereavement leave for same-sex spouses, and so forth.
I'm confused about your last statement about TSA hurting people because they have taken a position on Gay marriage. It's an opinion that was put forward in a parliamentary commitee in which all voices were invited to speak.
Is that not a point of celebration in a democratic society? Their statement is public. Find out what they said & you will realize how they respect all people including those who are homosexual.
Again, the question needs to be asked again, how are they hurting people?
@Dizzydizzy17 I've answered this several times. They are hurting people by "othering" LGBT and suggesting that our "lifestyle" is somehow "less than" that of a straight person. There is nothing loving, supportive, or healthy about their approach to LGBT people. They are packaging vile bigotry in very pretty language. Furthermore, their political and legal acitivities, funded by public donations, take simple policy into action that has far-reaching effects on people beyond their church.
Some ones got it wrong again.The Salvation Army or its members do not hate Homosexuals.They,including me find that the act of homosexuality is repulsive,not normal and in some cases quite sickening. Sticking ones penis in someones anus is not normal and licking someones vagina is not the "norm". The Salvation Army like other Churches have a book of rules called the Bible which tells that Homosexuality is wrong.
I won't argue with you - the Bible is pretty clear about gay issues... And if you want to believe in that, that's fine, and if you want to join a church with that viewpoint then good for you. You are entitled to believe in whatever you want. But when organisations that espouse such beliefs enter the public sphere by providing services to the general public, then I have a problem.
@petronopulas I don't think you are in any position to judge what is normal. In any case, normal is irrelevant. In this world fear and misery and greed and cruelty and injustice and abuse are all "normal". Normal is dysfunctional. Natural is another matter. There is no question that sexuality is natural, and there is no question that homosexuality is natural, as it occurs in both animals and humans on a regular basis.
@petronopulas What you find disgusting or repulsive is irrelevant to me. I personally find your theology and scriptures to be disgusting and repulsive, but I know you don't care about that. I only know of a few Bible verses that speak of homosexuality being wrong. The preponderance are in Leviticus, a book of ancient Jewish law, the majority of the rules of which modern Christians do not follow anyway.
The tax exempt assessed value of churches in the GVRD totals $854,738,500 (as published in 1996.) The government should revoke tax exempt status from churches and use that money to fund secular support strategies with no strings attached.
@starjimstar That's awesome that you found that out. I bet it's a lot more today, especially with crazy property values and inflation. We seriously need to raise questions as to why churches should receive this tax-exempt status...
As a fellow Vancouverite I wholeheartedly disagree with your belief that it is the Government's "job" to feed, shelter and provide services for it's citizens. The Government is our employee, not our employer/parent or guardian.
In Canada as well? I though Canada was very liberal? I guess if it can happen here as well theres probably a chance the Salvo's in my country also have these inclinations. I think Ill avoid all christian charaities.
But yeah lets not pressure them. Lets just not help them further thsi agenda. Its ppl like us who give these ppl their license to discriminate and erode rights because we donate and volunteer the rescrources they use to take the moral high ground when doing so
@1982mockingbird1982 Although we have a Conservative government, Canada is relatively progressive compared to many other western nations. As I say in the video they are quite limited in how they can discriminate here thanks to provincial human rights legislation which bars employers from dscriminating against people based on their sexual orientation.
@1982mockingbird1982 This is from the Australian Salvation Army site: "No person is excluded from membership, fellowship or service in the Army solely on the basis of sexual disposition."
"Homosexual practice would render any person ineligible for full membership (soldiership) in the Army. However, practising homosexuals are welcome to worship with, and join in the fellowship of The Salvation Army."
@NathanielChristopher Thanx. Just read some of this recently actually but missed alot of what you said here? And Im surprised Canada has a 'conservative' governement.
Great video, thanks for sharing. Is it really true that only religious charities are doing this work though? I was under the impression that there were many secular organizations out there, and that we could make real headway by donating to them. By way of example, I used to work at a transitional living program for teens who were aging out of foster care, and that was a state-sponsored program here in the US. Couldn't we buttress that with the money that's currently going to SA?
@charbarly What a wonderful suggestion, charbarly. It seems that so many Christian organisations have been doing charity stuff for so long that we assume it's their territory. So yeah, we should be more mindful about where our charity dollars go and make a point of learning which charities have no religious ties. Someone should start up some kind of databse or website!
I also think you'd find that Christian Charities like the SA and Goodwill would welcome the development of secular, parallel agencies to help distribute the load, and increase the overall effectiveness of humanitarian efforts.
Every year the SA's resources are stretched to their limits, and they have to turn people away. They'd be grateful for help from other groups.
However, I doubt churches will ever leave the arena of charity work -- it's specifically required of them by their beliefs. Christ commanded his followers to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, care for the ill, in addition to loving your neighbor as yourself (where neighbor was defined in the parable following the command as ANYONE in need).
If they take their faith seriously, they'll stay invested in charities. Wouldn't necessarily have to run them though.
I'm glad I viewed this video. It's an excellent response to the original boycott video. If the state picked up the slack, it would allow individuals to make their own decisions on social issues. Well thought out video, especially to a video that was considered by some to be "irrefutable". Good work!
@ChristiansForUnity Using caps-lock for an entire sentence is wrong! I promise you that your God will strike you down and send you to an eternity in hell for that. My Bible group will not be praying for you.
@tubetib Hmm... But who decides who is the "most fortunate"? Who is the least fortunate? I don't think it's the responsibility of the rich people or "most fortunate" to look into their hearts and "do the right thing" by donating to a charity. I believe that the power, money and influence of the state should be used to ensure that nobody in Canada needs to turn to some charity for the essentials of survival.
Wow, a great response vid. Thoroughly cogent yet unscripted, and a true insider viewpoint. I'm in the UK, and stopped donating to the Sally Army when I was about 12, (45 years ago) when I also dumped religion. But I totally agree that it is the responsibility of any government to maintain the welfare of those less able or temporarily unable to support themselves. I have friends in Quebec, and am pretty sure that they share your views.
Appreciated your response to ZJ. While I disagree with a number of your assertions, your engagement of the topic is thoughtful and thought-provoking and I heartily agree with your conclusion.
I just want to say, good video! I grew up similarly, and I ended up homeless for a brief time in my teens. The shelter was offering a free Thanksgiving meal, but we had to sit through a two hours service to get it. It was ridiculous, because the feeling I got from the sermon was, if my relationship was stronger with religion, I wouldn't be in that position. I was christian at the time. Anyways, you bring up good points here, though. ;)
@ADDMeetsInsomnia Thanks Tera! I love your nick... I gotta check out your videos now... I think that the non-religious movement (or I guess the seperation of church and state movement or whatever it's called) would make a lot of headway in the US if they did something about totally divesting religion from charitable services. I think that one of the only times that non-religous people HAVE to go to a church or a religious service is when they are low on food or need a place to stay or something.
Great points as usual! It's really interesting to hear what the perspective of someone who was in your situation is. I really liked how you pointed out that the responsibility of governments are being shifted to other organizations... so much more to be said about these issues!
@gardneross Thanks Joe! The points I raise in this video are good examples of why I support the NDP. The BC Liberals (and I guess the Saskatchewan Party) believe that charities are best-suited to deal with poverty and social justice whereas many progressive minds would rather attack the sources of poverty and inequity through long-term public programs etc. It's a lot harder and far less sexy to do the right thing...
If you want to talk lifestyle, let's talk.
Let's talk about those who condone a lifestyle of the repression of women & actively turn a blind eye to their deaths.
Lets talk about those who claim homosexuality a mental illness & jail them.
Let's talk about slavery, child labour and the sex trade.
Let's talk about fair trade?
And yet when TSA has a position on the definition of marriage - that oposes your own, that is hurtful? Thanks again for taking the time with me today. Good night.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 Discrimination is discrimination. There are varying degrees of it, from those who outwardly support the execution of gays (which is consistent with the Bible I might add), to those who, as you say, disagree with the constitutional definition of marriage in this country.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 And the Salvation has, as I've explained to you, done more than just politely express their opinion against equal marriage. At nearly every turn they've used their resources to oppose expanding equality to LGBT Canadians. Up until 1986 homosexuality was a criminal offence in New Zealand. When a bill was proposed that would decriminalise consensual sex between men the SA active throughout the country gathering signatures for a petition to prevent the bill from passing.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
TSA has never deem the lifestyle of a gay person is less than that of a straight person. All I read is a position they put forward regarding the classification of marriage - what offends you should offend those who are living in common law. But I don't hear that. I don't see any clamouring to Parliament Hill of common law couples screeming commonlawphobia against TSA.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 Well, as it happens marital status is an area of protection in the BC Human Rights Code. Perhaps I will look into this a bit more and make a video along those lines... I would be interested to know, for example, how many people in common law relationships have killed themselves in the last year due to societal discrimination against them.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 Studies show, in Canada at least, that homophobic discrimination is one of the most prevalant forms of discrimination in this country. This is especially true in schools. A 2003 report, for instance, noted that homophobic harassment was identified as a major problem in every school district in this province. Further studies, reports, and news reports of youth suicides only confirm these grim statistics. The Salvation Army is part of what's wrong.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Zinna Jones - I viewed her videos today. Her rants are not truthful - cherry picking - half truths to forward her own political agenda.
Regarding TSA - public money was not used in their presentation at the parliamentary committee - internal funds from SA congregations funded their appearance before the parliamentary committee. I've been taught that you don't distort facts that you don't have the full story about.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 Everything she has said on the Sally Anne's record with respect to LGBT issues is independently verifiable. Even if the Salvation Army does do wonderful work in other areas, that does not negate the fact that they are a socially conservative, religious organisation that has fought against LGBT equality over the years.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Position Statement on Gay & Lesbian Sexuality of The Salvation Army - Conclusion
In keeping with our mission, we are committed to proclaiming the good news of salvation, the
forgiveness of sins, and transformation by the Holy Spirit. We welcome all seekers of faith in
Christ to explore Salvation Army church life.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
Position Statement on Gay & Lesbian Sexuality - Continued
We believe that we are accountable for the ways in which we express our sexuality. While recognizing the challenge that this presents, The Salvation Army believes firmly in the power of God’s grace to enable all to live in a manner that is pleasing to Him.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
Position Statement on Gay & Lesbian Sexuality of The Salvation Army -Continued...
The Salvation Army believes that God’s will for the expression of sexual intimacy is revealed in the Bible, and that living fully in accordance with biblical standards calls for chastity outside of heterosexual marriage and faithfulness within it. We do not believe that same‐sex attraction is blameworthy and we oppose the vilification and mistreatment of gays and lesbians.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
Position Statement on Gay & Lesbian Sexuality of The Salvation Army
The Salvation Army upholds the dignity of all persons. For this reason, and in obedience to the example of Jesus Christ, whose compassionate love is all‐embracing, The Salvation Army does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation in the delivery of its services.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
I do not believe that you have it correct when it comes to The Salvation Army's position on homosexuality. Your take is distorted & slanted - not completely honest in approach - it's cherry picking.
Nor do I believe you have the correct perception when it comes to views you don't agree with based on one's genuine heart felt faith & calling it homophobia. Could you be accused of badgering until one agrees with your opinion? Are you "faithphobic" when one does not agree with your position?
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 Faith = belief without evidence.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Hi Nathaniel:
"My Faith" = "My Testimony": I have experienced a real, vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ that has transformed my life. I am living proof.
Many scientific investigation begins with belief that is not based on proof: They begin exploration through the scientific method of study as a result of an element of faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. That is how we have built the society of technology and medical innovations we have today.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 They begin their study with confidence that the experiment or whatever will do what they hypothesize. They can show how and why their experiment does what it does and give instructions on how it can be reproduced by anyone with the right tools. There is, however, absolutely no evidence to support the existence of a God and your "vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ"? That's all in your head, kiddo.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Hi Nathaniel: I began my investigation with a clean sheet. I saw what others had in their life - I looked long & hard & came to the conclusion that, Jesus Christ is real. My testimony is my testimony. It's fact. I have experienced it.
Becareful of how you judge as you can be accused of being judgemental of my beliefs & even "phobic" in the same way you stand in condemnation of those who do not hold to your personal belief system. It could be said that what you believe is "all in your head."
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 I tend to believe in things that can be supported with evidence and you don't need me to tell you that are free to believe in whatever you want. But when people use their unsupported claims in things like religion to marginalise or oppress that's when I have a problem.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Nathaniel:
Are you saying what I believe leads to oppression??? Who is judging & creating fear in those who do not agree with you by calling them homophobic? Are you referring to the context of TSA? I believe that is the context of why we are in discussion.
I am not wanting to go to old flogged out history that is tiresome & does not speak to the reality of TSA & their equally valid positions that you may not agree with. Am I homophobic for disagreeing with you and agreeing with TSA?
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
Nathaniel:
By the way, I agree with your position on the right of every person to decent housing, access to food, education and medical care.
I like how The Salvation Army has brought some of these issues to the for front by running a campaign I have seen on YouTube and on TV called the "Dignity Project." Basic human dignity is a right for person. And the money spent on the Olympic!!!! Blows my mind!
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 I didn't say what you believe leads to oppression 'cause I'm not exactly sure what you believe. The Salvation Army's position on homosexuality isn't rooted in anything scientific or factual. They base their position on the Bible which is just a book of claims. No more valid than Lord of the Rings or Little Red Riding Hood.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 While many churches are affirming of LGBT people other congregations, such as the Salvation Army, have a long and well-documented history of fighting against basic human rights protections for LGBT people around the world.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Hi Nathaniel:
The Salvation Army's beliefs are based on a deep seated belief in the Bible as the inspired word of God who loves all of his creation. This is part of faith - faith in a God who resides outside our ability to fully comprehend him without scripture.
The Salvation Army is affirming - it embraces all people and embrace them to worship and become members of their churches. Even "legally married" gay couples with their children have been embraced into the fellowship.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 Again, the Bible is a book conceived, written, translated, edited, compiled, and rewritten by men. There is absolutely no evidence that it was inspired by any deity, or that any deity exists. If people want to believe this, that's fine, but if you want to base any kind of policy on it that has any impact on people outside of your community then I have a problem.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
The Bible was written by men-inspired by God.There is no base line in your life to understand this.The conversation has to move beyond your disblief in God & to the fact that not all people hold the same views of yourself & it's ok to be on opposing sides of an issue without being accused of being homophobic. Even if my point of view is based on the reality that God's Word is my guide in how I live my life & view the world, it should be just a valid as those influences that form your world view.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 You claim the Bible was written by men inspired by "God" but do you have any evidence to support this? Probably not. I don't believe someone is homophobic for what they think or believe - but what they do. I have made the argument that the Salvation Army is a homophobic organisation and there is absolutely valid justification for these policies and actions.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
@NathanielChristopher *no valid justification rather.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Hey, I would suggest you read the book, "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. He was an atheist lawyer who set out to disprove once and for all belief in God. Unfortunately for the cause of the Athesist movement he discovered the reality of God.
Subsequent to his first book, he has written, "The Case For Faith." Both of these books are interesting and easy reads. At the end of these books you just may continue to hold to your views - but at least you were honest in affirming your position.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17
Thanks for taking the time to conversing with me today.
I hope you have a good week.
Bye, Dizzy
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 And no, I'm sorry, but the things that influence my world view are grounded in science and other things that can be shown to be true. You may not agree with my positions, and that's fine but I can come back at you and point out that there is no evidence to support the existence of your deity, which seems to be the root of your argument.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
@NathanielChristopher
Everything one believes, even in science, cannot be proved.
Life is much bigger and much more exciting than what is simply in front of you.
Your arguements by the way for saying the Salvation Army is homophoic falls farl short of the definition of what homophobic means.
Definition from Gay/Lesbian Site:
Homophobia is the hatred or fear of homosexuals - that is, lesbians and gay men - sometimes leading to acts of violence and expressions of hostility.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 Scientific principles can be shown to be true through research, evidence, and studies. Like I said before, the experiments and stuff that show something to be true can be repeated and demonstrated by anyone with the right tools etc. When you fight against LGBT peoples' right to marry, live in a safe and supportive community, or have consentual sex with their partner without fear of arrest I would call that hate.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
@NathanielChristopher And BTW the definition of homophobia, as defined in the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, also mentions prejudice against LGBT people. This is also the commonly understood meaning of the term.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Oxford definition of "Prejudice"
"Dislike, hostility, or unjust behaviour deriving from preconceived and unfounded opinions: accusations of racial prejudice."
This still does not apply to what you are saying about the Salvation Army. You continue to base your label of homophobia based on an opinion that TSA is in disagreement with you.
Based on what I have read & heard, you can be accused of generating false understandings that can people to discriminate against TSA and those hold to faith.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 Again kiddo, I've shown that not only their words, but their actions in court, the political arena, and elsewhere have set out to adversely impact the lives of LGBT people. I will say it again, the Salvation Army is a homophobic organisation.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Nathaniel:
I see none of these attributes of homophobia associated with The Salvation Army.
This brings me to the point that you need to be careful how one uses the homophobic term as it is wrong. You can make people afraid to express opinions that you do not agree for fear of being labelled. That's called oppression! The homophobic term is used too liberally against those who disagree with your own opinion. It's wrong. It would be just as wrong for me to label you for not agreeing with me.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 Hey kiddo, if the shoe fits... Nobody likes being called a bigot, a racist, a homophobe or any of that. There was a time, within living memory, when polite people tolerated organisations that had had a public position against LGBT people and their rights, but society has changed and Canadians have evolved. LGB equality is enshrined in our constitution and supported by a majority of Canadians. These days there's a certain stigma attached to bigoted people...
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
@NathanielChristopher
What!! Now you are using bigoted! Wow!
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 And you are using four exclamation points! Wow!!!
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
@NathanielChristopher
It's about the surprise of the message that continues to boggles the mind.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 Well, right back at you, kiddo. Goodnight!
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Oxford Definition: Bigot
Having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one’s own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others.
Now, I believe the shoe fits.
I'm afraid that the GLBT movement needs to becareful facilitating such a bigoted label upon those who opposing views. They are becoming what they are accusing organizations such as TSA of being. They are putting forth false statements - which by the way are lies.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
Nathaniel:
Check your history more carefully - the Salvation Army has been and continues to be at the forefront for fighting for basic human rights
- raising the age consent of girls being prostituted
- setting basic safety standards in the work place (match factories in Britian)
- created the Canadian parole system in 1890
- One of the leading organizations in the world today on the fight against human trafficing, fair trade and basic human dignity for all people
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
The Salvation Army's position on gay marriage is based on the Biblical model of marriage - heterosexual in form. In giving voice to their belief this does not equate them in fighting against basic human rights. They are living out a deepseated faith that does not in any way infringe on how one expresses and lives out their sexual orientation. Having one voice their disagreement and actively proclaim their position against the Salvation Army does not necessarily make them anti- Salvation Army.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 They actively tried to prevent same-sex marriage from happening - not just fgor their own followers or other Christians - but for everyone. In New Zealand they actively campaigned against the repeal of sodomy laws there back in the '80s and the list goes on. They actively work to build a world where people like me are denied some of the basic human rights afforded in our Charter. They aren't just sitting in a vacuum praying - they're fuckin' hurting people.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Sorry for missing this comment. TSA has the right in democratic country such as Canada to put forward their opinions without any hate or contempt nor with any threats to withhold services.They don't trounce on yours nor any one elses rights. They celebrate & value your right to your opinions & I hope you celebrate their opinions. That is what makes our country of Canada such a great nation - where rights are enshrined after all opinions have been put forward. Gay marriage is a case in point.
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 I'm starting to think that you didn't actually watch my video... The Salvation Army has, on many ocassions, tried to stamp out my rights as a gay person. The Salvation Army has, in this country and elsewhere, continuously fought against the rights of LGBT people. The Salvation Army avails their time, and donated money, to fight against LGBT equality in court and in the political sphere for things like same-sex marriage, spousal bereavement leave for same-sex spouses, and so forth.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
I'm confused about your last statement about TSA hurting people because they have taken a position on Gay marriage. It's an opinion that was put forward in a parliamentary commitee in which all voices were invited to speak.
Is that not a point of celebration in a democratic society? Their statement is public. Find out what they said & you will realize how they respect all people including those who are homosexual.
Again, the question needs to be asked again, how are they hurting people?
Dizzydizzy17 4 weeks ago
@Dizzydizzy17 I've answered this several times. They are hurting people by "othering" LGBT and suggesting that our "lifestyle" is somehow "less than" that of a straight person. There is nothing loving, supportive, or healthy about their approach to LGBT people. They are packaging vile bigotry in very pretty language. Furthermore, their political and legal acitivities, funded by public donations, take simple policy into action that has far-reaching effects on people beyond their church.
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
@NathanielChristopher Anyways, I'm done this for tonight. I need sleep. I'll leave you with this post from Zinnia:
zinniajones(dot)com/blog/2011/12/common-objections-to-boycotting-the-salvation-army/
NathanielChristopher 4 weeks ago
Some ones got it wrong again.The Salvation Army or its members do not hate Homosexuals.They,including me find that the act of homosexuality is repulsive,not normal and in some cases quite sickening. Sticking ones penis in someones anus is not normal and licking someones vagina is not the "norm". The Salvation Army like other Churches have a book of rules called the Bible which tells that Homosexuality is wrong.
petronopulas 2 months ago
I won't argue with you - the Bible is pretty clear about gay issues... And if you want to believe in that, that's fine, and if you want to join a church with that viewpoint then good for you. You are entitled to believe in whatever you want. But when organisations that espouse such beliefs enter the public sphere by providing services to the general public, then I have a problem.
NathanielChristopher 2 months ago
@petronopulas I don't think you are in any position to judge what is normal. In any case, normal is irrelevant. In this world fear and misery and greed and cruelty and injustice and abuse are all "normal". Normal is dysfunctional. Natural is another matter. There is no question that sexuality is natural, and there is no question that homosexuality is natural, as it occurs in both animals and humans on a regular basis.
endofscene 1 month ago
@petronopulas What you find disgusting or repulsive is irrelevant to me. I personally find your theology and scriptures to be disgusting and repulsive, but I know you don't care about that. I only know of a few Bible verses that speak of homosexuality being wrong. The preponderance are in Leviticus, a book of ancient Jewish law, the majority of the rules of which modern Christians do not follow anyway.
endofscene 1 month ago
I completely disagree. Churches should NOT be allowed to have bigoted views. And such churches should lose their tax exempt status.
If a church preached racism you know they would lose it, so let them lose it if they preach homophobia.
Fuck the haters (And their supporters for that matter.)
TheSkunkCat 7 months ago 2
@TheSkunkCat I couldn't agree with you more!
NathanielChristopher 7 months ago
It is a societal issue, which is why we should do all we can to scream from the mountaintops that hating on gays is NOT cool.
Otherwise, I pretty well agree, but there are myriad charities that do the same thing or better and without the homophobic baggage.
ChocoboKillerKanyo 1 year ago
The tax exempt assessed value of churches in the GVRD totals $854,738,500 (as published in 1996.) The government should revoke tax exempt status from churches and use that money to fund secular support strategies with no strings attached.
starjimstar 1 year ago 7
@starjimstar That's awesome that you found that out. I bet it's a lot more today, especially with crazy property values and inflation. We seriously need to raise questions as to why churches should receive this tax-exempt status...
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago
Do donate, just not to the Salvation Army.
jimwinkler 1 year ago
Sorry. churches are public ground, that is why they do not have to pay taxes in America.
nights22003 1 year ago
As a fellow Vancouverite I wholeheartedly disagree with your belief that it is the Government's "job" to feed, shelter and provide services for it's citizens. The Government is our employee, not our employer/parent or guardian.
kevendubin 1 year ago 2
@kevendubin I appreciate your point of view! Thanks for commenting. :)
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago
In Canada as well? I though Canada was very liberal? I guess if it can happen here as well theres probably a chance the Salvo's in my country also have these inclinations. I think Ill avoid all christian charaities.
But yeah lets not pressure them. Lets just not help them further thsi agenda. Its ppl like us who give these ppl their license to discriminate and erode rights because we donate and volunteer the rescrources they use to take the moral high ground when doing so
1982mockingbird1982 1 year ago
@1982mockingbird1982 Although we have a Conservative government, Canada is relatively progressive compared to many other western nations. As I say in the video they are quite limited in how they can discriminate here thanks to provincial human rights legislation which bars employers from dscriminating against people based on their sexual orientation.
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago
@1982mockingbird1982 This is from the Australian Salvation Army site: "No person is excluded from membership, fellowship or service in the Army solely on the basis of sexual disposition."
"Homosexual practice would render any person ineligible for full membership (soldiership) in the Army. However, practising homosexuals are welcome to worship with, and join in the fellowship of The Salvation Army."
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago
@NathanielChristopher Thanx. Just read some of this recently actually but missed alot of what you said here? And Im surprised Canada has a 'conservative' governement.
1982mockingbird1982 1 year ago
Great video, thanks for sharing. Is it really true that only religious charities are doing this work though? I was under the impression that there were many secular organizations out there, and that we could make real headway by donating to them. By way of example, I used to work at a transitional living program for teens who were aging out of foster care, and that was a state-sponsored program here in the US. Couldn't we buttress that with the money that's currently going to SA?
charbarly 1 year ago
@charbarly What a wonderful suggestion, charbarly. It seems that so many Christian organisations have been doing charity stuff for so long that we assume it's their territory. So yeah, we should be more mindful about where our charity dollars go and make a point of learning which charities have no religious ties. Someone should start up some kind of databse or website!
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago
@NathanielChristopher
I also think you'd find that Christian Charities like the SA and Goodwill would welcome the development of secular, parallel agencies to help distribute the load, and increase the overall effectiveness of humanitarian efforts.
Every year the SA's resources are stretched to their limits, and they have to turn people away. They'd be grateful for help from other groups.
Llyranon 1 year ago
@NathanielChristopher
However, I doubt churches will ever leave the arena of charity work -- it's specifically required of them by their beliefs. Christ commanded his followers to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, care for the ill, in addition to loving your neighbor as yourself (where neighbor was defined in the parable following the command as ANYONE in need).
If they take their faith seriously, they'll stay invested in charities. Wouldn't necessarily have to run them though.
Llyranon 1 year ago
I'm glad I viewed this video. It's an excellent response to the original boycott video. If the state picked up the slack, it would allow individuals to make their own decisions on social issues. Well thought out video, especially to a video that was considered by some to be "irrefutable". Good work!
charlesfloyb 1 year ago
HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG! SA IS DOING THE RIGHTIOUS THING!
ChristiansForUnity 1 year ago
@ChristiansForUnity Using caps-lock for an entire sentence is wrong! I promise you that your God will strike you down and send you to an eternity in hell for that. My Bible group will not be praying for you.
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago 3
This has been flagged as spam show
@NathanielChristopher
"@ChristiansForUnity Using caps-lock for an entire sentence is wrong!"
*chuckle*
Llyranon 1 year ago
It is so sad that poor people depend so much on charities. We, the most fortunate, should take our responsibilities.
tubetib 1 year ago
@tubetib Hmm... But who decides who is the "most fortunate"? Who is the least fortunate? I don't think it's the responsibility of the rich people or "most fortunate" to look into their hearts and "do the right thing" by donating to a charity. I believe that the power, money and influence of the state should be used to ensure that nobody in Canada needs to turn to some charity for the essentials of survival.
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago
@NathanielChristopher "But who decides who is the "most fortunate"? " This can be establish by the revenues. It is not a subjective question.
tubetib 1 year ago
@tubetib Very true! History has taught us that they really don't like helping out the less fortunate... especially if it means one less SUV! :)
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago
Wow, a great response vid. Thoroughly cogent yet unscripted, and a true insider viewpoint. I'm in the UK, and stopped donating to the Sally Army when I was about 12, (45 years ago) when I also dumped religion. But I totally agree that it is the responsibility of any government to maintain the welfare of those less able or temporarily unable to support themselves. I have friends in Quebec, and am pretty sure that they share your views.
wordreet 1 year ago
Good job! You're spot on.
dannybambino 1 year ago
Appreciated your response to ZJ. While I disagree with a number of your assertions, your engagement of the topic is thoughtful and thought-provoking and I heartily agree with your conclusion.
Llyranon 1 year ago
@Llyranon Thanks, dude! I think Canada would be a much better place if more of us were allies to causes outside of our own sub-group or niche.
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago
@NathanielChristopher
Agreed. The alleviation of human suffering trumps politics and trumps philosophical differences.
Llyranon 1 year ago
Very well thought out statement
bajanreporter 1 year ago
@bajanreporter w00t! Thanks, Ian! :)
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago
I just want to say, good video! I grew up similarly, and I ended up homeless for a brief time in my teens. The shelter was offering a free Thanksgiving meal, but we had to sit through a two hours service to get it. It was ridiculous, because the feeling I got from the sermon was, if my relationship was stronger with religion, I wouldn't be in that position. I was christian at the time. Anyways, you bring up good points here, though. ;)
ADDMeetsInsomnia 1 year ago
@ADDMeetsInsomnia Thanks Tera! I love your nick... I gotta check out your videos now... I think that the non-religious movement (or I guess the seperation of church and state movement or whatever it's called) would make a lot of headway in the US if they did something about totally divesting religion from charitable services. I think that one of the only times that non-religous people HAVE to go to a church or a religious service is when they are low on food or need a place to stay or something.
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago
Great points as usual! It's really interesting to hear what the perspective of someone who was in your situation is. I really liked how you pointed out that the responsibility of governments are being shifted to other organizations... so much more to be said about these issues!
gardneross 1 year ago
@gardneross Thanks Joe! The points I raise in this video are good examples of why I support the NDP. The BC Liberals (and I guess the Saskatchewan Party) believe that charities are best-suited to deal with poverty and social justice whereas many progressive minds would rather attack the sources of poverty and inequity through long-term public programs etc. It's a lot harder and far less sexy to do the right thing...
NathanielChristopher 1 year ago