Why would God Predestine someone not to believe in him and then punish them with Hell for doing what he Predestined them to do? I assume I was predestined by god to have my doubts about predestination, how can I be wrong for being the way I was Predestined to be?
IT IS SIMPLE...BECAUSE GOD COMMANDED US TO EVANGELIZE...WE ARE PART OF THAT PLAN...AND THOSE WHO WERE CHOSEN WILL HEAR THE MESSAGE & HAVE THEIR EYES OPENED...CALVINISTS(INCLUDING PAUL) HAVE BEEN ACTIVE EVANGELIZING SINCE CHRIST CAME...
If God knows the outcome of a coin flip than he knows the outcome of your life. A God who does not the outcome of your life is not a God to begin with. If God gave us free will than we would all have a fair chance for salvation just like the coin flip, but we dont. A rich American kid who is born into a christian family has alot more opportunity than does a poor child in the remote African interior who will never even hear the word of God. The proof sits right in front of our minds everyday.
PREDESTINATION is scriptural but the CALVINIST'S VIEW IS NOT CORRECT. They believe that God will just pick from random and choose whom He will predestined and whom He won't.
The truth is that God predestined all Hs children 100% without a single one who will be lost.
It is also a fact that the devil has his own children and they will not be saved. "Wheat and Tare."
Cain,Judas, some of the Pharisee are biblical ex of Tare. Serial killers, dirty politician, rapists, and Hitlers are in our time.
If you sincerely desire to evangelize the lost you should stop promoting unconditional election and limited atonement in particular and start to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
1. Calvinists believe in the doctrine of election, and it is true and scriptural. Actually God predestinated all His children to be saved and be with Him. So who are those who will not be saved? They are not the children of God. Example of them were Cain, Judas, pharao, Ananias and Saphira. Example of the children of God who we know were saved even before they were born were Jacob, Moses, and the prophets
2. The bible refers the children of God as sheep, and goats are not His children. Sometimes they are refered as the wheat and the tare. In the parable of the wheat and tare, notice that even before they were planted they were already of different seeds. The wheat was the seed of God and was planted by Jesus, the tares were the seed of the devil and was planted by the devil. Jesus once said that He came but for the lost sheep of Israel. Before they were saved Jesus called them sheep already
3. So from both Adam and Eve who were both children of God, How did these goats came into being?
It also started in the book of Genesis in the garden of Eden. The actual sin of Adam and Eve was not eating an apple or literal fruit of the tree. It was only an allegory. The actual sin was adultery. Before Adam knew his wife Eve she was seduced by the devil who entered the serpent. After Eve committed adultery she went back to Adam and Adam knew her. She bore a twin.
4. Cain was the child of the serpent, and Abel the child of Adam the child of God. The serpent was not a snake but it became a snake after God cursed him. In the law of reproduction the bible said that everything reproduce according to its kind. Jesus once said, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. But look how evil Cain was, he even withstood God to the face. Adam and Eve were both good, children of God created to His likeness.
5. When Eve bore Seth, she said , God appointed me ANOTHER seed INSTEAD of Abel. She knew that Cain was not the seed of God nor seed of Adam.
In the bible there are two genealogies. One of Adam and one of Cain. After thousands of years of mixed marriages
no one can determine who are the descendants of Adam nor of Cain but God only. Jesus was not lying nor making presumptous statement when He told some of the Pharisees, "You are of your father the devil."
6. In John 3:12 the apostle John called Cain of the wicked one. "wicked one" means the devil.
The descendants of Adam and Eve who were created in the likeness of God are sheeps, elected, predestinated, while the descendants of Cain like Judas, pharao, Ananias and Saphira were goats and cannot be saved.
7. When I was a new believer I thought that everyone will be saved if there is someone who will testify to Him of the gospel and will lead him to Christ without giving up. But I noticed that there are some extremely evil person who will even mock the gospel. There are serial killers who doesn't show even a slight of guilt. How can these people believe and repent? No wonder Jesus said to the rich man, "Even a dead person will rise from the grave and testify yet they will not believe.
8. When a wax and clay, both exposed to the same heat, the wax will melt, while the clay will hardened. Why ? Because it is their characterestics.
When a sheep and a goat both hear the same gospel, the sheep's heart will melt and he will fall down to his knee and will ask forgiveness from God. The goat will harden his heart and mock God. Why? Because it is their characteristics. Election and Predestination is biblical. I am not a calvinist, I don't believe in trinity and tithing.
God gives everyone the decision of salvation, once we hear the true gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin we have to make a decision: to accept that Jesus died for us or to neglect it, God wants us to accept his salvation, but first we have to see how wicked we are and to cry for mercy, once we accept the gospel and recive Jesus we are elected to go to heaven.
And we are called to evangelize, as Paul said Romans 10:12-15
so i guess i'm going to HELL. I just started to realize this. scripture keeps popping up in my head. why were most of us even born? for complete destruction?
John 6:19 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world
John 6:44 " For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
Why evangelize? Mankind is a fallen race and the only way to salvation is by hearing the gospel and believing.
The gospel will be brought to everyone but only the elect will believe and respond.
Since the preacher doesn't have the ability to know who are the elect and who are not, he should preach to both the same way as if they are both elected.
@EmmetEarwax , Looking at your questons, it seems that you have not study well the bible. Any way I'll try to answer your questions.
1. Both.Relative to God, we are predestined. Relative to us we choose wether to follow or reject God. God's children will always choose to obey God while the devil's children will always choose to disobey God. It is their characterestics. Just like the clay and the wax, when both are esposed to the same heat, the wax will melt while the clay will hardened.( next )
@SapphireDiamond19 , If a person is not predestined to be saved, he will indulge in sin whether he hear the gospel or not. He is not of God but of the devil. It is his nature to commit sin.
Jesus said in John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
So a person who is predestined will indulge in righteousness? Im sorry but the Bible says that there is NONE that is righteous no not one. So if a person is predestined to be saved can they die and NOT repent because they were predestined? And just because were Christians were are STILL sinners but were saved by grace. Stop putting yourself above others as if were some "elite chosen" people of God because if anything we ALL deserve Hell
Because thats excatly how you Calvinist present yourselves. And anyone who is a sinner who DID NOT repent their names are not written in the Book of Life your contridicting yourself
@Sapp..., 2. The persons that are predestined are the children of God (Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth, Jacob, Jeremiah and others) before they were even born. Can you deny this?
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jer 1:5
The children of the devil are not predestined. ex: Cain, Judas, Pharao, etc. Can you deny this?
When they hear the gospel, the chosen will believe and repent, the others won't.
That has NOTHING to do with predestination. What did God say before Cain killed Abel? He said this Genesis 4:7, "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it." Abel has a CHOICE so did EVE. She CHOOSE to eat that fruit and if you deny that we have free will then that makes God the author of sin which is BLASTFEMY
I meant Cain had a choice. Also Judas CHOOSE to betry Jesus. He didnt have to do what he did but he did anyway because sin ruled in his heart just like ALL of us and same case for the Pharoah. We have a CHOICE. Its either Heaven or Hell. And the image in which you Calvinist paint God is horrific. The fact that we dont even agree with each other says something about your doctorine
@SapphireDiamond19 , 1st, I'm not a Calvinist. My view of predestination is different than theirs. 2nd, How did I contradict myself? 3rd, predestination, election, or chosen are all scriptural.
I don't agree with Calvinism of their horific view of God. I believe that God will save all His children. These children are called predestined, elected or chosen. They mean the same thing. It is a fact that the devil have also children. I already gave you the verse John 8:44. You think Jesus was lying?
@SapphireDiamond19 , 1st, I'm not a Calvinist. My view of predestination is different than theirs. 2nd, How did I contradict myself? 3rd, predestination, election, or chosen are all scriptural.
I don't agree with Calvinism of their horific view of God. I believe that God will save all His children. These children are called predestined, elected or chosen. They mean the same thing. It is a fact that the devil have also children. I already gave you the verse John 8:44. You think Jesus was lying?
@SapphireDiamond19 , 1st, I'm not a Calvinist. My view of predestination is different than theirs. 2nd, How did I contradict myself? 3rd, predestination, election, or chosen are all scriptural.
I don't agree with Calvinism of their horific view of God. I believe that God will save all His children. These children are called predestined, elected or chosen. They mean the same thing. It is a fact that the devil have also children. I already gave you the verse John 8:44. You think Jesus was lying?
@SapphireDiamond19 , John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1 John 3:12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." wicked one means devil.
@SapphireDiamond19 , 3. Cain, Judas, and some of the Pharisee as Jesus said are the children of the devil.
Of course all have free will, but the children of God will choose to obey God, and the children of the devil will choose to obey the devil. The parable of the wheat and tare depicts the children of God and the children of the devil. Even before they were planted they were of different seeds already. How did these children of the devil come into existence is another story.
@SapphireDiamond19 , 4. Cain chose to disobey God and kill his brother because that was his nature. He got his nature from his father the devil. Same with Judas, he chose to betray Jesus because that was his nature.
The wax and the clay when exposed to the same heat, the wax will melt, while the clay will hardened. It is their nature.
When both the wheat and the tare hear the same gospel, the wheat will believe and repent, while the tare will harden his heart and will even mock God.
A tare is a COUNTERFEIT Christian. That had nothing to do with unbelievers. And with you saying that these people had a choice says that there was no presdestionion at all and that people go to Hell by their own choosing. So with that statement, your saying that homosexuals are born gay because thats their nature
@SapphireDiamond19 , 1.Jesus demonstrated 2 groups of people only. The believers, and the unbelievers; The wheat and the tare. The Counterfeit Christians belong to the unbeliever group. He is not a true believer, he is a tare. He is not a sheep but a goat. Predestination belongs to God only. It is relative to God. Everything is finished in God's eye. He can see each one's destinaion. Free will belongs to us. Everything we do, we do it by our choice but God know already what we will choose.
@SapphireDiamond19 , 2. Some homosexuals were born homosexuals, but some become gay by their choice. It is still their nature not to believe God but to feed their own unnatural lusts. If they belong to the wheat they will abhore homosexuality.
So if some homosexuals were "born" homosexuals, then does that mean that God makes them gay? Real Christians believe that homosexuality is a choice and that God does not make them gay. But in your case if people are "born" homosexuals then from your standpoint its clear that "God" made them that way and they cant help their sin but yet God hates homosexuality and damns them to Hell anyway. Thats sick
@SapphireDiamond19 , 1. Try to make a research about homosexuality. Many medical scientists made a research and that's their findings. Why are there people born with disabilities. Some with no legs and arms, and others are dumb and deaf, and many of them are not believers and are bound to hell. Not all Christians beliefs are right. They are not perfect to understand everything in this world. Why did God allowed many children and infants to be born and just kill them? Can you understand that?
@SapphireDiamond19 , You know very little of the bible boy. Study more. Read about the fllood in Noah's time. Read about exodus when God slew the Egyptians. Read about the time when Joshua entered Israel.
Then come back and tell me what you have learned. It is God that gives life and it is God that takes life. Matt 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Once again you are misreading scripture. Look you have what you believe and I have what I believe so Ill just leave it at that. But let me ask you one question, how do YOU know that YOU are part of the elect? And FYI, Im a girl
@SapphireDiamond 1. , Oh , I'm sorry. I thought you are a young boy by the way you argue.
If you are an elect you will know it. Only God & yourself knw that.
But these may help: Where you pricked in your heart the first time you hear the gospel? Did you believe and repent? Are you growing in the spirit and bearing fruits since you believe? Do you feel joy in your heart when you hear the words of God. Do you love Jesus above all others including your father, mother, siblings, husband or bf?
@SapphireDiamond19 , If your answers to the above questions are affirmative. I believe that you are an elect. Even the elect commit sin, but not a grievous sin, and they always repent immediately and ask forgiveness from God
About God killing people, Search for Ananias and Saphira in the book of Acts. You will find that God slew them both.
Just for curiosity, may I know how old or how young are you?
Peace! May god bless you and teach you more of the Holy Scriptures.
God doesnt "kill." For Him to kill would mean that He is breaking His own commandments and that would reduce God to human characterisitics which is unholy. What a way to bring down God. Ananias and his wife did something wrong so God punished them for it.
@SapphireDiamond19 , 2. There are many people born with disabilities and abnormalities. There are born mongoloid and some mentally sick. I have seen in the youtube a man without arms and legs, only a body, neck and head.
The only sensible explanation for this is, It is the consequence of the fall of Adam and Eve.
These born homosexuals might have a grandfather that committed the same sin and was passed on to him. See Numbers 14:18
@SapphireDiamond19 Ppl r born gay. We all were born in sin and shaped in iniquity...thus the need to be born again. We come here flawed, however once born again, the old man is dead. We are new creatures, alive in Christ Jesus.
If people are born gay then thats giving homosexuals an excuse for their behavior and since they were born that way, they cant change. Thats pretty much your argument. Homosexuality is a CHOICE. Eve had a CHOICE to bite the apple. God didnt intend for this planet to be like this cause remember there were TWO trees and if they would have bit the Tree of Life, this world wouldnt be the way that it is so the Calvinist doctorine is flawed.
@SapphireDiamond19 , 3. Numbers 14:18 "The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation."
Yes Hes willing to forgive ANYBODYS sin. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.(Rev 3:20)
@SapphireDiamond19 I am a Christian, I'm trying to understand the Calvinist predestination view, but I don't really agree with it. However, your statement that the true Christian believes homosexuality is a choice does not fit me. I do not know if it is a choice, but what is so wrong about them being born gay? We're all sinners. We're all born that way. I believe Christ can save and change a homosexual the way He saved you and I.
@EmmetEarwax , 2.We are a soul covered with flesh. When you ask questions like " Who am I? ", "Why I am here", It is the awareness of the soul. When you love or you hate , it is your soul that express that emotions.
When your body dies, your soul still lives and will be judged on the last day.
3. Christ was God that manifested in the flesh. He was both God and man. The one that was born suffered and died was the man. The one that raised Him from the dead is God that indwelt Him.
This topic of "Predestination" has been taught incorrectly by so many, for so long. Predestination doesn't begin in the NT, but in the OT. Genesis 1:26-28. It's not certain individuals that have been predestined for heaven or hell, but it's GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION, and man's role(s) in that plan, that has been predestined. Each individual has an opportunity to hear the Gospel and be saved, for WHOSOEVER CALLETH UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED. "WHOSOEVER" excludes NO ONE.
Salvation is available for all, Jesus died for all, God laid on in the sin of us all, that's why the Holy Spirit is willing to convince all, and not the elect ones, The Holy Spirit will convict THE WORLD OF SIN, the call is TURN UNTO ME ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH AND BE SAVED, of course just few ARE CHOSEN, or FEW WILL RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL, since some Christians turn backsliders Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart
of unbelief, in departing from the living God. He 3:12
true believers want to tell the truth. The truth of the matter is that the Jews who say they are Jews are are not, The 12 tribes are the fake people in Israel. The blacks, Hispanics, Jamaicans, people of Haiti, some Indians, Dominicans, and son. These are the people who The most high raised other people up against, not because they were evil, but because they served other gods over the one and only God. Do a process of elimination. Start with. ps 83, gen49, duet28, zec2, rev 2:9 & 3;9 Truth!
IAMTHATIAM1962 Sorry I misspoke. I meant to say the Jewish people over in Israel are the fake Israelite's. The 12 tribes are Jacobs sons. who are Israel. These are the people of color who have been oppressed and mistreated throughout our history. Because They struck the most high to jealousy he also struck them to jealousy by putting a people over them. They once had salvation, but because of their fall it went on the gentiles. It's evil to teach people that they are someone who they are not.
I'm not convinced, so God is calling everyone, reaching has hand out and then at the last second he shouts just joking and withdraws from the unelected for an eternity of suffering.
@papasee,God is Holy he can do whatever He want's........I also heard that Hell doesn't exist that it's a lie from the devil to make God look EVIL but idk im trying to read more on that subject too.
@rrusco They do say so. Matthew 4:4 we are not to live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Every word of God is pure Proverbs 30:5. We do have God's preserved word, and the fact that it's inspired means its living. That is said throughout the bible, His words are living - Christ is alive - He is known as the word, He is the word. I don't know what point you are trying to make but Gods word says what it means, just have to believe every bit of it.
@TheKJVberean I agree 100% about God's word. I never said anything against God's word. He is God -after all. But were they talking about a book? The bible? In Matthew 4:4, Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy. Exegesis shows us that the Torah was not even established yet at the time of this verse. God's word at the time of this verse was literally a word from God - not only a book. God's revelation is found in many ways: visions, dreams, other people, experiences, etc. I also believe in God's word.
Isaiah 55:8-9: God said, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts niether are your ways my ways declares the LORD. As the heavens are higher than earth so are my ways higher than yours and my thoughts are your thoughts!"
NO ONE CAN THE DEBATE ABOUT PRESDESTINATION. You get saved from knowing Christ not knowing presdestination.
@Dragonfly101 Why look into the hebrew and greek? As if your going to get more truth than what Gods Word gives us in scripture. There is no need for greek and hebrew when we have the very words of God in our own language, what's wrong with just reading the bible and reading it in its context and keeping that as our final authority and not the greek and hebrew?
@TheKJVberean I disagree. A mistranslation would no longer be God's words but man's. How can a mistranslation bring the exact same message as the original? If the original writer intended temporal but the translator put permanent, the 2 messages are obviously different.
Yes, Virginia, when SS-soldiers were bashing the heads in of Jewish children, it wasn't really the SS-soldiers that sinned, they were directed by Satan to do this, and Satan was ordered to let them do this by the calvinist god. Calvinism in a nutshell. Don't ask, don't criticize, just sit up straight and worship the cosmic Caligula.
@rrusco No english translation is safe? So kids and adults alike need to learn hebrew and greek to have the Word of God? Give me a break, 2 Timothy 2:9 "...but the word of God is not bound." Modern Bibles use the "age" rendering alot. You need to stay away from the nay sayers and just read a Bible in your own language. God preserved his Word and we have it in english (KJV). ppl always love going back to the "greek" to find what a word "really" means, instead of Thus saith the Lord.
@TheKJVberean I agree with you somewhat here, however, I believe that we should be careful and actually look at the Hebrew and study the Greek with a Hebrew mindset when it comes to real Biblical studies.
@TheKJVberean We're all under the assumption that the 66 books are God's word when the books themselves never say so. When you say that "God has preserved His word" this is taken from the Council of Carthage in the 4th century and Martin Luther's declaration. The only biblical reference to this is 1 tim 3:16 (Pauline). However, inspiration by God doesn't make it His word. Many things in this world are inspired by HIm. Ultimately, God's word is just His word (literally). Like Psalm 119.
Sorry, I don't mean 2 offend anyone, but this vid is unclear. The concept of the elect & predestination has been misinterpreted, imho. The elect r God's "chosen people", the early Jews. He ELECTED them 2 spread His message. They were predestined for this role in history. If God chose who would be saved even b4 He created the world, then y did Jesus die ? Y b a good Christian, y come 2 Christ, y follow the commandments, IF in the end it's not going 2 help w/ salvation?
@SomethingReal1119 That's just it. The reason why Jesus died is for the elect. It is the elect that come to Christ and follow the commandments. Also, Christians don't follow commandments TO be saved. We do it BECAUSE we're saved. It's God and God alone that saves.
@prettylola Thats what they did, correct. Just as I did. Satan comes as an angel of light, calvinism is not biblical whatsoever. Calvinism twists scripture to fit the theology, and make sure your using a KJV, the other bibles are corrupted. In love..
@TheKJVberean Sorry to burst your bubble but the KJV has problems. No English translation is safe. Check the original Hebrew and Greek. You can get this at scripturetext (dotcom) The KJV uses terms like "everlasting" and "forever and ever" (which is a Hebrew idiom "ages of the ages"). Think about it: you don't need ANYTHING after forever. That alone says something. By the way, the word in Hebrew is "owlam" and "aion" in Greek meaning age. Was Jonah (ch 2 verse 4)in a whale forever?
The biggest misconception of the Arminian is this: Arminians think that the reason to preach is to save people.
Wrong.
The reason to preach is to glorify God. His mercy is glorified in those whom He saves. And His Justice is glorified in those who reject Him.
The saving of the people is just a means to an end. Yep. A means to an end? Sounds immoral? It's not. For a man to use another man is immoral. For God to use men is His absolute right.
I hate this false doctrine SO much. All it does is turn everyone into little puppets, and makes God look like some evil tyrant that has no compassion. It also creates classes among the body of Christ...like you are the elect, and if you do enough good, you get better rewards than other believers that don't. Same with 'the elect' vs. unbelievers....we are just somehow BETTER because we were picked and they were not !!! S I C K sick !
@oldpreach What I find sick is the teaching of eternal damnation. The word "hell" is wrong. It means concealed, hidden (the same root as hall) It was inspired by Nordic Mythology (the Goddess Hel) and greek mythology. Hellenization led Tatarus to be associated with Gehenna (not hell (hidden) but a dumping place) which is where you get fire. Nordic - prisoners Gehenna - prisoners. This is the connection. There is punishment (annihilation) for the unsaved but redemptive & known only to God.
@oldpreach Being among the elect doesn't make you BETTER. You are just part of His divine plan. There's a "plan" for the non-elect. This is known ONLY to God himself. It's redemptive as well. God is no respector of persons. Theological truths come first. Before what we "think" the bible says (so called "eternal damnation" which by the way is age-during destruction).
Calvin was an evil man that had those that did not agree with him burned at the stake. Why would I EVER take his lame predes doctrine seriously ? Predes and eternal security is just a cop out for those that are dry as a bone spiritually and can not reconcile their carnality with Bible's teaching on living in the Spirit. They can't understand why they feel so carnal all the time, but are supposed to have the Spirit. The trouble is, they NEVER got the Spirit in the first place.
naturally this would pull the human string of emotions, but God protected his messenger "bald guy" from the gang "bunch of kids" because the message is was too important. God is communicating and revealing himself to humanity in various ways (Hebrews ch 1). this also accounts for why and how other animals could talk miraculously, why? the message how? well He's God.
this also includes Me a Christian saved according to that same Gospel, and this also includes you should you believe, we're clearly not that "nation" of people referred to in the old testament that God chose and yet here we are just as relevant to God's story. check out the New Testament you'll see how letters went out to the Gentiles revealing Gods purpose to save even them if they believe. Have you ever seen a street gang, this is a better description of your "bunch of kids."
for the other nations, you can see there outcome by reading the rest of the bible story, they would be considered gentiles which the Gospel reads that " Jesus Christ died on the cross so those who believe could live both Jews who were the chosen people and Gentiles who are everyone else,"
@live4pce If parrots can talk, is it so far fetched for the "snake" in the garden who was also Satan by the way (Ezekiel 28). The same God who protected the "bald man" in order that His message would go out, is the same God that saved a "nation" of people who refused to worship and obey his commandments their also known as "God's chosen people."
there is no ELECT. your fate is not predetermined. I think people who believe this stuff just want to feel special. its all human elitism. everyone wants to feel special or elected its the nature of man to create separation for some reason. what sense would it make to create people and predestine their lives and then say they have free will? free will and predestination cannot co-exist!
@live4pce Did God himself not "elect" or "set apart" Israel for himself? No, it is those who think that they can override God's sovereignty with the human characteristic of "free will" that think they are special. It would take a special person indeed to override the decrees and sovereign plans of an Almighty God!
@prettylola1 you say that as if you KNOW that god has done what u claim. how do you know? sounds like a bunch of humans to me making up these silly rules and ideas. your only proof is the bible and your gut feeling..aka non reliable evidence. i don't believe "god" has anything to do with that book or any of the other books. they were written and pieced together by men. men decided what would go in and would would stay out..that doesn't sound very divine for to me. our lives are not predetermined
@patriotsfan1379 im sorry, but its not a gut feeling that tells me the bible is not divine its simple common sense. you have been conditioned to think lowly of yourself as you are, HUMAN. tell me what sense it would make to create something destined to burn forever? the fact is we make choices in our lives and we have to live with the choices we make. you religion is based on a book that was assembled and written and edited by human beings. there is no elect or chosen people.
@live4pce Wow! It definitely sounds like you have never looked into the validity of the bible before. I would encourage you to do that before you make such assumptions. If it was not inspired by God's Spirit, and it was just written by men, then why would they put such bad things about themselves in there? I know that if I were telling a "story" about my life and experiences I would want to put myself in the best possible light! But they don't do that. Hum...makes you wonder!
im sorry but when a book says in one chapter that a talking snake tricked a woman, you should ritually kill animals to cleanse your self from "sin" , and stone and kill non believers and donkeys can talk as well...forgive me if i dont take it a historical fact. if i wrote a book saying my dog talked to me no one would believe me because its clearly a lie.
even with out the obvious talking snakes and animals and world floods, the bible is still not divine simply becasue of its doctrine adn contradictions. what kind of God would kill a bunch of kids with bears because they made fun of a bald man? what kind of God allows human being to be bought and sold? what kind of god chooses one nation over another? what kind of divine all knowing being would instruct someone to kill members of other religions? this is how i can see the validity of your bible.
@live4pce and you are looking at those "fairy tales" and "contradictions" from a fallen state! We are sinners and we have no right to tell God that he is wrong for "this-or-that" just because we don't think it is fair or scientifically empirical. However, I will pray for you live4pce.
@live4pce wha...I...oh, I get it: Christians do not use their brains! Man, that is original. A "thank you for praying for me" would have sufficed, but I must say I expected a little less contention from someone named live4pce...just saying....
Its 9 oclock in germany. will come back to your comments on monday. ONe thing ahead: on youtube there is a great video from Paul Washer . Search for him and the terms election, predestination. He does a great job explaining this. Our free will to choose God got hung on the tree , and it really comes back if you think sinners are totally depraved or not. if you think they are ´meaning, they will always hate god, unless God draws them (see john 14)
Another point about predestination. Y do we need to give our hearts to God? Because God does not have our hearts & God does not just take our hearts; WE need to give our hearts to God in order to be God's. God has everything, all creation is His, but if U doNT GIVE Him your heart, He does NOT have U. So, we choose, we r NOT predestined, & even if God knows ur future & ur end, YOU chose every step of the way that took u there.
@atamotua64 God cannot have a perfect foreknowledge of what you will "choose" if his foreknowledge hinges on your moment by moment decisions. Therefore, in order to have a perfect foreknowledge, God also has to predestine us ("For those God foreknew he also predestined...").
Ah ha! Finish that verse you're quoting. It says, "...to be conformed to the image of Christ."
1st notice the audience Paul is writing this to - Christian. 2nd notice the focus of the epistle - exhortation. He is not reminding them of the means by which they were saved, but the fact that God has foreordained them to live lives that are conformed to the image of Christ. Nowhere in scripture is the context of predestination salvific. It is, however, pertaining to holiness.
@DanPrinMan Actually, you are only 1/5 correct in saying Romans 8:29, 30 is only pertaining to holiness. It is pertaining to Predestination, Calling, Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification (The Golden Chain). This process describes our past (predetermined), present, and future (glorification) salvation. Nowhere in scripture is the context of predestination salvific? How about: Eph. 1:5, 1:11; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; and Romans 9:23?
Another point about predestination. Y do we need to give our hearts to God? Because God does not have our hearts & God does not just take our hearts; WE need to give our hearts to God in order to be God's. God has everything, all creation is His, but if U doNT GIVE Him your heart, He does NOT have U.
@wolfec ok, i mistook u for someone else... ;) regardless, the messages are good for all who read and heed them... God bless... And Jesus is coming soon, sooner than we think... i cant wait, but i will
God does not do devil's work, devil doesNTdo God's work. God will never put devil in charge of hell. God has absolutely nothing to share with devil. God will punish devil & evil angels along side the wicked; devil will punish no one. Wicked will receive punishment they deserve while the saved will receive rewards they do NOT deserve. Noone deserves what Christ prepared for those who accept Him; salvation is FREE but NOT cheap & it's urs by Grace thru faith in Christ
@indeed478 God allows bad things to happen now, because of the nature of things since sin entered our world. God does not do evil so that after He can use it for good; Bible says that WHEN evil or bad things happen, God uses that & tries to turn it around for good. Y would God do something evil so after He can turn it to good? y not God do good to begin with? Lets be careful here in what we assign to God. Remember, God does not do the devil's work, neither does the devil do God's work.
@indeed478 Lucifer chose to separate himself from God; it started as a small idea, & no one knew what sin meant, it had never happened before, but Lucifer started doubting Gods love & His just character; he had absolutely no reason for it, sin has NO excuse, it's one of the great mysteries which no one can nor will they be able to explain nor excuse; if u excuse sin, then u accuse God of being unloving & unjust; & Lucifer started raising doubts in other angels minds, hence his followers.
@darwin047 u mean God made creatures TO disobey Him and so that they go against Him? u mean God created things that would go against His system nad Kingdom? read the gospels, it says there that not even the devil will do things against their own kingdom. but God does? common, let's be serious.
IMAGINE someone gives you a video recording of a future event (i know, not possible for us). You start watching it & see all that everyone does & chooses in their life. So now you know some of the things that will happen to & with those ppl which you've just watched in the video. Does the fact that you now know what those ppl will do mean that they were predestined? I'd be laughing hard if you said yes.
Also an important issue that is totally misunderstood in the criticism of predestination: Do you know who is elect ? NO .. nobody knows except God. So how can you say, that calvinists do evangelize only to the elect ? Its an antinomy, everything is predetermined and yet, we are fully responsible for our actions
@davidanful I think i get ppl's confusion. Also, I know God has all things under control. Now, i dont get y so many have a problem with the following: Just because God has the power & ability to KNOW the future, does NOT mean that God predestined things to be a certain way. We could say HE MADE some things be a certain way, He wills for some things to be a certain way, but He obviously GAVE FREEDOM of CHOICE to everyone. God does not choose who will be saved, read John 3:16.
Even under the free will theory, it is still predestination.
If God is almighty and create TIME, he certainly controls it and knows who will be saved or not.
Now if he knew that by creation of Bob (who will go to Hell - and God knows it), God by foreknowing it, has predestined it. Otherwise he could have let another person in the "act of creation" be born.
So even if Bob has not chosen God through his free will decision, you automatically have predestination from the vantage point of God.
If I see a crowed of homeless people, and decide to give some of them a meal, but not all of them, am I being unjust or unloving? No one can accuse me of being anything but gracious or loving for having given anything to them.
Its easy, you are trying to understand the mind of God, it wont happen.
Repent and believe, and you will be granted eternal Glorious life. You may have already done this, but you trying to understand if God is fully loving or not is missing the point.
@fuzzylogic99 Because he chose to save anyone makes him a loving God. None of us deserve his grace, but all of us enjoy his common grace to one extent or another (food, shelter, water, clothes, jobs, family, friends, etc.). Some of us enjoy his saving grace, but none of us deserve it because we are all sinners. I may send money to a starving child in Africa, but just because I don't send all my money to starving children everywhere would you call me "unloving". Of course not
I'll answer by asking a question to you. If God's the author of Good, doesn't that mean He's the author of evil too? If not then who is?
Ohh and God can use His people to go evangelize to reach the lost sheep. Pretty simple if you ask me. lol "Heaven knows how many souls are going to hell and to heaven so we gotta go and get em" God uses us, and even planned for us to go evangelize. Meaning that He would reach some by using us. No brainer
God did not predestine anyone... just cause He knows who's who, does not predestinate... it's like saying that you knowing fire burns will predestinate someone TO get burned...
@atamotua64 Then how do you explain the large amounts of scripture that directly calls these people "the elect" ??? Why is this so hard to believe? Just open your Bible, it's all in there.
@wolfec Yes there are & were some special figures who we can say God chose to perform certain tasks & missions. Think about Moses, he was chosen to deliver His ppl from Egypt, did Moses really want to? NO, God had to plead with him over & over, til Moses finally said OK. But then look at CHOSEN who finally lost their salvation, prophets like Balaam who turned on God & His ppl. Look at King Saul, at first he was a humble man of God, then he hardened his heart & died as a lost man.
@atamotua64 But God also chose to harden Pharaoh's heart. This caused great anguish and conflict for both Egyptians and Israelites (in the form of more labor and harsher treatment). However, God used his hardening of Pharaoh's heart to bring about the freedom of his people! The same can be said King Saul. God made a way for David to get the throne!
@wolfec God chooses those who choose HIM, those who are WILLING to do God's will & be obedient to Him, always. God did NOT create a show where everything was setup, stage, actors, all in place, the good & the evil, what would be the point of having a set stage, a rigged 'life'? God is NOT a master puppetier, He is love & He let things be real. God does not force anyone to be saved though He so wishes that all would choose to be saved. Jesus died for ALL, ANYONE. John 3:16
@atamotua64 So one's salvation is conditional: they have to earn it by doing something and choosing God? I thought that works-salvation thing was what the apostles preached against so heavily. "It is by Grace that you are saved, not of yourselves..." and "Salvation is of the Lord". I don't see why some Christians hold on to the concept of "free will" when the Bible also says that, we are "slaves to sin"...that doesn't sound very free to me!
@oldpreach Deeper than you know my friend because I failed to see where you referenced my "ignorance" in your post...oh wait...that's because you didn't. Look you may not like my position, but that is no reason to attack me with empty accusations that have no validity. From all your previous posts, it sounds as though you have an axe to grind with us Calvinists. Hope you can learn how to tell the truth in love one day my friend!
@prettylola1 Go ahead and worship your burn people at the stake false teacher Calvin...it won't get you anywhere since you don't even hold to his original positions. The fact that you mentioned being a slave to sin with freewill shows what I am talking about. By doing that, you have not exhibited the ability to think critically about the subject. As if we are slaves to sin now that Christ has set us free ? If predest is true, and God is just, why didn't he just predest EVERYONE ???
@oldpreach Please be more specific: How do I not hold to his original positions? I never said that Christians are slaves to sin (only the unregenerate are)...so not to sure where you are going with that. A better question would be: If predestination is true, and God is just, why does he predestine ANYONE??? Because we all fall short of the glory of God!
@atamotua64 Then isn't He predestining us because He is seeing in us something that is motivating Him to save us? If our faith motivates God to save us, then it must have some merit in God's eyes, otherwise it would not motivate God to save us." Then God is looking into the future in order to learn. This would violate His attribute of omniscience. In other words, if God is looking into the future to see our choices, then this means God is constrained by time
@atamotua64 (cont) (otherwise He would not have to look into the future). The truth is that God is omniscient and knows all things all the time. He does not have to look anywhere, anytime to discover anything. To say that He looks into the future to see who would pick Him and then He predestines them is to say that God essentially is learning and adapting to the knowledge He gains in His future looking.
Predestination and Individual soul Liberty (free will) illustrate a mind which we don't have: God's. I ask the same questions and feel the same tension. God Chose us and we choose him. The point is to be faithful to scripture as told here. If you can't except that, then you can't except that God is also sovereign and in control. Man just can't get over his desire to understand everything and be in control.
@DanPrinMan You answered your own question at point #3 (witnessing is ALSO predestined). You followed your answer with the question. In fact, all things are predestined (Isaiah 46:10) . Witnessing is HOW the elect will be saved. The irony here is that Romans 8 and 9 brings up predestination and Romans 10 (verse 14-15) answers the biggest objection. In other words, everyone stops at ch9 without reading ch10. Matthew 22:14 sums it up. The calling is the witnessing, the chosen - the elect.
"Predestined?" He's not saying He has destined things all things beforehand to happen. He is saying "I declare what is to come from all time, and I can say this because I will do (present tense) all I desire." He is declaring his present action throughout all time, not that he has predestined all things. This seems to emphasize God as relational-one who is always presently working in and with us. If he CAN do this then he can rightly say that he declares the "end from the beginning."
@DanPrinMan Ahh but it says at the end of the verse, "...all I desire". God wins all the time! Declare means determine. It doesn't mean He's being relational. The context is addressing the Jews who are getting caught up in the teachings of dualism (Persian). He's simply saying to worship Him because He's the one that's in complete control. There's nowhere else to look. That's the context and point of the passage.
You say God predestines all things. One question: was God the author and initiator of sin - the very thing that displeases him?
If all things are predestined then there is no real reason that man ought to evangelize since it is only up to God to save certain people. Man can do nothing for himself, nor for anyone else in order to be save.
If God has predestined all things then why are we expected to evangelize? There would be no need to command something that God will do regardless.
@DanPrinMan I'll answer by asking a question to you. If god's the author of Good, doesn't that mean he's the author of evil too? If not then who is?
Ohh and God can use his people to go evangelize to reach the lost sheep. Pretty simple if you ask me. lol "Heaven knows how many souls are going to hell and to heaven so we gotta go and get em" God uses us, and even planned for us to go evangelize. Meaning that he would reach some by using us. No brainer
That's the exact same question I'm asking rrusco. I am saying that "IF" God predestines all things...
I don't believe God is the author of evil, it makes no sense Biblically and also logically. God was the author of the rejection of Himself? Also, God, not Satan, saw beforehand and somehow caused Adam and Eve to rebel against him. That defeats the very reason he created them.
So if God knows all who will be in heaven then can those freely choose any other path besides that? No.
@DanPrinMan I do believe God predestined all things. We are the ultimate cause of evil. It's our fault yes, but God allowed it. I'm saying He's in ultimate control of everyone, and everything so I have to say it was his plan for it to happen, but the blame is still on us. Without God planning things to happen, who knows what would of happened. Who knows if even Christ would of been Crucified! God planned for Christ to killed. He planned evil! But look what it did. All for the his glory!
So, God predestined and planned for the fall to happen, and yet you say, man caused it? How is this so, in light of the meaning of predestination?
I would agree that God is "in control of all things" but does not control all things, as is the meaning of predestination.
God planned to destroy Nineveh, but He changed. He planned (or foresaw) Hezekiah's death, but then He changed His mind. God planned to bring the Israelite people to an end and start over, but he changed his mind.
@DanPrinMan My thoughts come from Theology. "God is the only necessary being." (One of the most common statements of Theology.) The bible must be seen in light of Theological truth. If nothing existed before God then all that appears now would come from God - there is no other power source! He controls everything. God was not going to destroy Nineveh - he called Jonah so that they wouldn't be destroyed.
@JoshuaMI4 help me understand. We have no choice in this whatsoever, God planned it, He did everything, we're just puppets, YET WE ARE AT FAULT? If you see it that way, then HOW are WE at fault, if we're just preprogrammed actors? Also, the PLAN OF SALVATION existed, but it was NOT something God looked forward to, if need be to implement it. And CHRIST came TO GIVE HIS LIFE as an act of LOVE. OUR SIN forced God to lay down His life, The Creator giving ALL to His creation.
@JoshuaMI4 Yes WE are at fault, we have FREEDOM OF CHOICE & we CHOSE to disobey God & turn our backs on Him. Now we canNOT say that freedom of choice is bad, that would be the other extreme wrong idea. We need Freedom of Choice & stay on God's side. God created us perfect, with ability to structure our own lives, HOPING that we get to know Him, & accept Him, & love Him, for who He is & all He IS doing for us.
@DanPrinMan let's not confuse KNOWING with ALLOWING and with PREDESTINED. These are 3 different terms, with different meanings. Therefore, Knowing does NOT predestine. Also, Allowing does NOT predestine.
No one's confusing that, on my side. I was quoting the statements of JoshuaMI4. In no way do I disagree with your definitions and them being separate. He said "God predestined all things" and "it was His plan for it (the fall) to happen." If this is so we are, as you've said, puppets and preprogrammed to fall form the beginning.
This, to me, is quite unbiblical and a poor view on the nature of God.
@indeed478 God never created anything evil, of any kind. God cannot even do that because it's NOT in His character, not in His nature, never will be. SIN = separation from God = evil => EVIL is the ABSENCE of GOOD, just like cold is absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light. Also God is infinite, but His creation is limited. God will not create OTHER gods. So whoever says we are or can be gods, that is NOT of God, that is of the devil, deceit & oldest lies in the book.
@atamotua64 I'm not saying He is, I'm just asking questions, but who would be? If you say Satan than what made him all bad? Cause God made him all good at first. Was it his own choice, or was it God's choice? Did Pharaoh choose to have his heart hardened, or did God do that? The thing you need to ask is why does everything happen. Go read the story of Joseph. Better yet read the Gospel. Both stories show how God's plan is to mean and use evil for good and to show his glory to all creation.
@DanPrinMan The bible says, "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. What you sow you shall reap." Sin is ALWAYS punished and that pleases God. The origin of sin is a long debate but the point is that God wins in the end. His wrath pleases Him. Romans 10 answers your comment on evangelism. The same way that Barry Bonds uses a baseball bat to hit a home run (yet he's credited with the home run), God uses us to evangelize. Witnessing (from man) IS the method God uses to save.
In light of Calvinism and predestination, that makes it sound as if God's salvation is contingent on the choice of believers to evangelize. This is not what Calvinism/reformed theology teaches. If I'm somehow mistaken and they do teach this, the problem I've stated still stands. God is the one who saves, and it is not dependent on the thoughts and inclinations of man to evangelize.
Then the question could be asked: what purpose is there in obeying God's commandment to evangelize if saving is ultimately and solely up to God's predetermined election?
Just saying "because God commands us to, is not a very reasonable reason, if you will. It's like a parent telling his questioning child, "because I told you so." They're really not answering the question.
God has a purpose for evangelism - what is that purpose?
@DanPrinMan The purpose is to edify the Church. A church who is active in evangelism is also growing spiritually. I admit that saying "because God commanded it" seems somewhat unreasonable to you, but his ways are higher than ours. When standing before an omniscient God we have to conclude that we won't quite understand all of his "reasons". The latter part of Job may shed some light on how God views man's understanding of God's purposes.
Why would God Predestine someone not to believe in him and then punish them with Hell for doing what he Predestined them to do? I assume I was predestined by god to have my doubts about predestination, how can I be wrong for being the way I was Predestined to be?
ORBuddha 3 days ago
IT IS SIMPLE...BECAUSE GOD COMMANDED US TO EVANGELIZE...WE ARE PART OF THAT PLAN...AND THOSE WHO WERE CHOSEN WILL HEAR THE MESSAGE & HAVE THEIR EYES OPENED...CALVINISTS(INCLUDING PAUL) HAVE BEEN ACTIVE EVANGELIZING SINCE CHRIST CAME...
m1tchish 1 week ago in playlist Favorite videos
If God knows the outcome of a coin flip than he knows the outcome of your life. A God who does not the outcome of your life is not a God to begin with. If God gave us free will than we would all have a fair chance for salvation just like the coin flip, but we dont. A rich American kid who is born into a christian family has alot more opportunity than does a poor child in the remote African interior who will never even hear the word of God. The proof sits right in front of our minds everyday.
jledford72 1 week ago
If God saved Paul he can save anyone including dirty politicians, rapists, and serial killers.
baaaconman 2 weeks ago
PREDESTINATION is scriptural but the CALVINIST'S VIEW IS NOT CORRECT. They believe that God will just pick from random and choose whom He will predestined and whom He won't.
The truth is that God predestined all Hs children 100% without a single one who will be lost.
It is also a fact that the devil has his own children and they will not be saved. "Wheat and Tare."
Cain,Judas, some of the Pharisee are biblical ex of Tare. Serial killers, dirty politician, rapists, and Hitlers are in our time.
jundurias 4 weeks ago
If you sincerely desire to evangelize the lost you should stop promoting unconditional election and limited atonement in particular and start to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
lessingtom 1 month ago
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1. Calvinists believe in the doctrine of election, and it is true and scriptural. Actually God predestinated all His children to be saved and be with Him. So who are those who will not be saved? They are not the children of God. Example of them were Cain, Judas, pharao, Ananias and Saphira. Example of the children of God who we know were saved even before they were born were Jacob, Moses, and the prophets
jundurias 1 month ago
2. The bible refers the children of God as sheep, and goats are not His children. Sometimes they are refered as the wheat and the tare. In the parable of the wheat and tare, notice that even before they were planted they were already of different seeds. The wheat was the seed of God and was planted by Jesus, the tares were the seed of the devil and was planted by the devil. Jesus once said that He came but for the lost sheep of Israel. Before they were saved Jesus called them sheep already
jundurias 1 month ago
3. So from both Adam and Eve who were both children of God, How did these goats came into being?
It also started in the book of Genesis in the garden of Eden. The actual sin of Adam and Eve was not eating an apple or literal fruit of the tree. It was only an allegory. The actual sin was adultery. Before Adam knew his wife Eve she was seduced by the devil who entered the serpent. After Eve committed adultery she went back to Adam and Adam knew her. She bore a twin.
.
jundurias 1 month ago
4. Cain was the child of the serpent, and Abel the child of Adam the child of God. The serpent was not a snake but it became a snake after God cursed him. In the law of reproduction the bible said that everything reproduce according to its kind. Jesus once said, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. But look how evil Cain was, he even withstood God to the face. Adam and Eve were both good, children of God created to His likeness.
jundurias 1 month ago
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5. When Eve bore Seth, she said , God appointed me ANOTHER seed INSTEAD of Abel. She knew that Cain was not the seed of God nor seed of Adam.
In the bible there are two genealogies. One of Adam and one of Cain. After thousands of years of mixed marriages
no one can determine who are the descendants of Adam nor of Cain but God only. Jesus was not lying nor making presumptous statement when He told some of the Pharisees, "You are of your father the devil."
jundurias 1 month ago
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6. In John 3:12 the apostle John called Cain of the wicked one. "wicked one" means the devil.
The descendants of Adam and Eve who were created in the likeness of God are sheeps, elected, predestinated, while the descendants of Cain like Judas, pharao, Ananias and Saphira were goats and cannot be saved.
jundurias 1 month ago
7. When I was a new believer I thought that everyone will be saved if there is someone who will testify to Him of the gospel and will lead him to Christ without giving up. But I noticed that there are some extremely evil person who will even mock the gospel. There are serial killers who doesn't show even a slight of guilt. How can these people believe and repent? No wonder Jesus said to the rich man, "Even a dead person will rise from the grave and testify yet they will not believe.
jundurias 1 month ago
8. When a wax and clay, both exposed to the same heat, the wax will melt, while the clay will hardened. Why ? Because it is their characterestics.
When a sheep and a goat both hear the same gospel, the sheep's heart will melt and he will fall down to his knee and will ask forgiveness from God. The goat will harden his heart and mock God. Why? Because it is their characteristics. Election and Predestination is biblical. I am not a calvinist, I don't believe in trinity and tithing.
jundurias 1 month ago
God gives everyone the decision of salvation, once we hear the true gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin we have to make a decision: to accept that Jesus died for us or to neglect it, God wants us to accept his salvation, but first we have to see how wicked we are and to cry for mercy, once we accept the gospel and recive Jesus we are elected to go to heaven.
And we are called to evangelize, as Paul said Romans 10:12-15
nahumtefera 2 months ago
so i guess i'm going to HELL. I just started to realize this. scripture keeps popping up in my head. why were most of us even born? for complete destruction?
kenndogg51 2 months ago
@kenndogg51 , I guess you are not going to hell. Once you ask these questions it shows that you believe what is written in the bible.
So you are a believer and has the potential to accept and obey Jesus. Then you are saved.
God bless you.
jundurias 1 month ago
John 6:19 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world
MrSlippin22 2 months ago
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John 6:44 " For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
MrSlippin22 2 months ago
IM ELECT NOW YOU MET ONE
GOD BLESS
MrSlippin22 2 months ago
Why evangelize? Mankind is a fallen race and the only way to salvation is by hearing the gospel and believing.
The gospel will be brought to everyone but only the elect will believe and respond.
Since the preacher doesn't have the ability to know who are the elect and who are not, he should preach to both the same way as if they are both elected.
That's the simple answer.
jundurias 4 months ago
This is just one of the unresolvable disputes that have driven me to reject the Bible.
(1) Are men predestined - or do we have free will ?
(2) Do we have souls -or do we die with our bodies,to be recreated at Judgement Day out of the nearest rubbish on hand ?
(3) Is Christ God (or even God the Father) -or is he a perfect man, and now a spirit being ?
(4)If we have souls, do we get heaven or hell right after death - or do we wait to judgement day ?
EmmetEarwax 2 months ago
@EmmetEarwax , Looking at your questons, it seems that you have not study well the bible. Any way I'll try to answer your questions.
1. Both.Relative to God, we are predestined. Relative to us we choose wether to follow or reject God. God's children will always choose to obey God while the devil's children will always choose to disobey God. It is their characterestics. Just like the clay and the wax, when both are esposed to the same heat, the wax will melt while the clay will hardened.( next )
jundurias 2 months ago
So if were not predestined, is it ok for us to indulge in our sins because were not predestined?
SapphireDiamond19 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , If a person is not predestined to be saved, he will indulge in sin whether he hear the gospel or not. He is not of God but of the devil. It is his nature to commit sin.
Jesus said in John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
jundurias 1 month ago
So a person who is predestined will indulge in righteousness? Im sorry but the Bible says that there is NONE that is righteous no not one. So if a person is predestined to be saved can they die and NOT repent because they were predestined? And just because were Christians were are STILL sinners but were saved by grace. Stop putting yourself above others as if were some "elite chosen" people of God because if anything we ALL deserve Hell
SapphireDiamond19 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , 1. Why are you accusing me of putting myself above the others?
Did I say that a person who is predestined will indulge in righteousnesss? Stop putting words in my mouth if you don't understand what I'm saying.
Of course that is what the bible said. "No one is righteous no not one." Did I contradict this?
A person who is predestined are sinners like every one else but their names are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.
jundurias 1 month ago
Because thats excatly how you Calvinist present yourselves. And anyone who is a sinner who DID NOT repent their names are not written in the Book of Life your contridicting yourself
SapphireDiamond19 1 month ago
@Sapp..., 2. The persons that are predestined are the children of God (Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth, Jacob, Jeremiah and others) before they were even born. Can you deny this?
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jer 1:5
The children of the devil are not predestined. ex: Cain, Judas, Pharao, etc. Can you deny this?
When they hear the gospel, the chosen will believe and repent, the others won't.
jundurias 1 month ago
That has NOTHING to do with predestination. What did God say before Cain killed Abel? He said this Genesis 4:7, "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it." Abel has a CHOICE so did EVE. She CHOOSE to eat that fruit and if you deny that we have free will then that makes God the author of sin which is BLASTFEMY
SapphireDiamond19 1 month ago
I meant Cain had a choice. Also Judas CHOOSE to betry Jesus. He didnt have to do what he did but he did anyway because sin ruled in his heart just like ALL of us and same case for the Pharoah. We have a CHOICE. Its either Heaven or Hell. And the image in which you Calvinist paint God is horrific. The fact that we dont even agree with each other says something about your doctorine
SapphireDiamond19 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , 1st, I'm not a Calvinist. My view of predestination is different than theirs. 2nd, How did I contradict myself? 3rd, predestination, election, or chosen are all scriptural.
I don't agree with Calvinism of their horific view of God. I believe that God will save all His children. These children are called predestined, elected or chosen. They mean the same thing. It is a fact that the devil have also children. I already gave you the verse John 8:44. You think Jesus was lying?
jundurias 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , 1st, I'm not a Calvinist. My view of predestination is different than theirs. 2nd, How did I contradict myself? 3rd, predestination, election, or chosen are all scriptural.
I don't agree with Calvinism of their horific view of God. I believe that God will save all His children. These children are called predestined, elected or chosen. They mean the same thing. It is a fact that the devil have also children. I already gave you the verse John 8:44. You think Jesus was lying?
jundurias 1 month ago
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@SapphireDiamond19 , 1st, I'm not a Calvinist. My view of predestination is different than theirs. 2nd, How did I contradict myself? 3rd, predestination, election, or chosen are all scriptural.
I don't agree with Calvinism of their horific view of God. I believe that God will save all His children. These children are called predestined, elected or chosen. They mean the same thing. It is a fact that the devil have also children. I already gave you the verse John 8:44. You think Jesus was lying?
jundurias 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1 John 3:12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." wicked one means devil.
jundurias 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , 3. Cain, Judas, and some of the Pharisee as Jesus said are the children of the devil.
Of course all have free will, but the children of God will choose to obey God, and the children of the devil will choose to obey the devil. The parable of the wheat and tare depicts the children of God and the children of the devil. Even before they were planted they were of different seeds already. How did these children of the devil come into existence is another story.
jundurias 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , 4. Cain chose to disobey God and kill his brother because that was his nature. He got his nature from his father the devil. Same with Judas, he chose to betray Jesus because that was his nature.
The wax and the clay when exposed to the same heat, the wax will melt, while the clay will hardened. It is their nature.
When both the wheat and the tare hear the same gospel, the wheat will believe and repent, while the tare will harden his heart and will even mock God.
jundurias 1 month ago
A tare is a COUNTERFEIT Christian. That had nothing to do with unbelievers. And with you saying that these people had a choice says that there was no presdestionion at all and that people go to Hell by their own choosing. So with that statement, your saying that homosexuals are born gay because thats their nature
SapphireDiamond19 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , 1.Jesus demonstrated 2 groups of people only. The believers, and the unbelievers; The wheat and the tare. The Counterfeit Christians belong to the unbeliever group. He is not a true believer, he is a tare. He is not a sheep but a goat. Predestination belongs to God only. It is relative to God. Everything is finished in God's eye. He can see each one's destinaion. Free will belongs to us. Everything we do, we do it by our choice but God know already what we will choose.
jundurias 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , 2. Some homosexuals were born homosexuals, but some become gay by their choice. It is still their nature not to believe God but to feed their own unnatural lusts. If they belong to the wheat they will abhore homosexuality.
jundurias 1 month ago
So if some homosexuals were "born" homosexuals, then does that mean that God makes them gay? Real Christians believe that homosexuality is a choice and that God does not make them gay. But in your case if people are "born" homosexuals then from your standpoint its clear that "God" made them that way and they cant help their sin but yet God hates homosexuality and damns them to Hell anyway. Thats sick
SapphireDiamond19 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , 1. Try to make a research about homosexuality. Many medical scientists made a research and that's their findings. Why are there people born with disabilities. Some with no legs and arms, and others are dumb and deaf, and many of them are not believers and are bound to hell. Not all Christians beliefs are right. They are not perfect to understand everything in this world. Why did God allowed many children and infants to be born and just kill them? Can you understand that?
jundurias 1 month ago
God doesnt kill anybody, Satan does
SapphireDiamond19 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , You know very little of the bible boy. Study more. Read about the fllood in Noah's time. Read about exodus when God slew the Egyptians. Read about the time when Joshua entered Israel.
Then come back and tell me what you have learned. It is God that gives life and it is God that takes life. Matt 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
jundurias 1 month ago
Once again you are misreading scripture. Look you have what you believe and I have what I believe so Ill just leave it at that. But let me ask you one question, how do YOU know that YOU are part of the elect? And FYI, Im a girl
SapphireDiamond19 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond 1. , Oh , I'm sorry. I thought you are a young boy by the way you argue.
If you are an elect you will know it. Only God & yourself knw that.
But these may help: Where you pricked in your heart the first time you hear the gospel? Did you believe and repent? Are you growing in the spirit and bearing fruits since you believe? Do you feel joy in your heart when you hear the words of God. Do you love Jesus above all others including your father, mother, siblings, husband or bf?
jundurias 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , If your answers to the above questions are affirmative. I believe that you are an elect. Even the elect commit sin, but not a grievous sin, and they always repent immediately and ask forgiveness from God
About God killing people, Search for Ananias and Saphira in the book of Acts. You will find that God slew them both.
Just for curiosity, may I know how old or how young are you?
Peace! May god bless you and teach you more of the Holy Scriptures.
jundurias 1 month ago
God doesnt "kill." For Him to kill would mean that He is breaking His own commandments and that would reduce God to human characterisitics which is unholy. What a way to bring down God. Ananias and his wife did something wrong so God punished them for it.
SapphireDiamond19 4 weeks ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , 2. There are many people born with disabilities and abnormalities. There are born mongoloid and some mentally sick. I have seen in the youtube a man without arms and legs, only a body, neck and head.
The only sensible explanation for this is, It is the consequence of the fall of Adam and Eve.
These born homosexuals might have a grandfather that committed the same sin and was passed on to him. See Numbers 14:18
jundurias 1 month ago
Wrong. Homosexuality is a choice. Nobody is born gay.
SapphireDiamond19 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , Ay support for this? Scriptural or scientific will do.
jundurias 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 Ppl r born gay. We all were born in sin and shaped in iniquity...thus the need to be born again. We come here flawed, however once born again, the old man is dead. We are new creatures, alive in Christ Jesus.
CHARA523 4 weeks ago
If people are born gay then thats giving homosexuals an excuse for their behavior and since they were born that way, they cant change. Thats pretty much your argument. Homosexuality is a CHOICE. Eve had a CHOICE to bite the apple. God didnt intend for this planet to be like this cause remember there were TWO trees and if they would have bit the Tree of Life, this world wouldnt be the way that it is so the Calvinist doctorine is flawed.
SapphireDiamond19 4 weeks ago
@SapphireDiamond19 , 3. Numbers 14:18 "The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation."
jundurias 1 month ago
Yes Hes willing to forgive ANYBODYS sin. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.(Rev 3:20)
SapphireDiamond19 1 month ago
@SapphireDiamond19 I am a Christian, I'm trying to understand the Calvinist predestination view, but I don't really agree with it. However, your statement that the true Christian believes homosexuality is a choice does not fit me. I do not know if it is a choice, but what is so wrong about them being born gay? We're all sinners. We're all born that way. I believe Christ can save and change a homosexual the way He saved you and I.
ImSoPeeved 1 week ago
@EmmetEarwax , 2.We are a soul covered with flesh. When you ask questions like " Who am I? ", "Why I am here", It is the awareness of the soul. When you love or you hate , it is your soul that express that emotions.
When your body dies, your soul still lives and will be judged on the last day.
3. Christ was God that manifested in the flesh. He was both God and man. The one that was born suffered and died was the man. The one that raised Him from the dead is God that indwelt Him.
4. Same as 2.
jundurias 2 months ago
This topic of "Predestination" has been taught incorrectly by so many, for so long. Predestination doesn't begin in the NT, but in the OT. Genesis 1:26-28. It's not certain individuals that have been predestined for heaven or hell, but it's GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION, and man's role(s) in that plan, that has been predestined. Each individual has an opportunity to hear the Gospel and be saved, for WHOSOEVER CALLETH UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED. "WHOSOEVER" excludes NO ONE.
revlooshin 6 months ago
why? because Jesus commanded us to go out into the world and preach the gospel that why.
MrRomans829 6 months ago
Salvation is available for all, Jesus died for all, God laid on in the sin of us all, that's why the Holy Spirit is willing to convince all, and not the elect ones, The Holy Spirit will convict THE WORLD OF SIN, the call is TURN UNTO ME ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH AND BE SAVED, of course just few ARE CHOSEN, or FEW WILL RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL, since some Christians turn backsliders Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart
of unbelief, in departing from the living God. He 3:12
realsacerdocio32 6 months ago
There are many heavenly rewards, not just entry. Getting in is grace alone.
TTB1177 6 months ago
true believers want to tell the truth. The truth of the matter is that the Jews who say they are Jews are are not, The 12 tribes are the fake people in Israel. The blacks, Hispanics, Jamaicans, people of Haiti, some Indians, Dominicans, and son. These are the people who The most high raised other people up against, not because they were evil, but because they served other gods over the one and only God. Do a process of elimination. Start with. ps 83, gen49, duet28, zec2, rev 2:9 & 3;9 Truth!
IAMTHATIAM1962 7 months ago
IAMTHATIAM1962 Sorry I misspoke. I meant to say the Jewish people over in Israel are the fake Israelite's. The 12 tribes are Jacobs sons. who are Israel. These are the people of color who have been oppressed and mistreated throughout our history. Because They struck the most high to jealousy he also struck them to jealousy by putting a people over them. They once had salvation, but because of their fall it went on the gentiles. It's evil to teach people that they are someone who they are not.
IAMTHATIAM1962 7 months ago
I'm not convinced, so God is calling everyone, reaching has hand out and then at the last second he shouts just joking and withdraws from the unelected for an eternity of suffering.
papasee 7 months ago
@papasee,God is Holy he can do whatever He want's........I also heard that Hell doesn't exist that it's a lie from the devil to make God look EVIL but idk im trying to read more on that subject too.
chutubeme 7 months ago
@rrusco They do say so. Matthew 4:4 we are not to live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Every word of God is pure Proverbs 30:5. We do have God's preserved word, and the fact that it's inspired means its living. That is said throughout the bible, His words are living - Christ is alive - He is known as the word, He is the word. I don't know what point you are trying to make but Gods word says what it means, just have to believe every bit of it.
TheKJVberean 8 months ago
@TheKJVberean I agree 100% about God's word. I never said anything against God's word. He is God -after all. But were they talking about a book? The bible? In Matthew 4:4, Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy. Exegesis shows us that the Torah was not even established yet at the time of this verse. God's word at the time of this verse was literally a word from God - not only a book. God's revelation is found in many ways: visions, dreams, other people, experiences, etc. I also believe in God's word.
rrusco 8 months ago
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Isaiah 55:8-9: God said, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts niether are your ways my ways declares the LORD. As the heavens are higher than earth so are my ways higher than yours and my thoughts are your thoughts!"
NO ONE CAN THE DEBATE ABOUT PRESDESTINATION. You get saved from knowing Christ not knowing presdestination.
ICarnagezI 8 months ago
@Dragonfly101 Why look into the hebrew and greek? As if your going to get more truth than what Gods Word gives us in scripture. There is no need for greek and hebrew when we have the very words of God in our own language, what's wrong with just reading the bible and reading it in its context and keeping that as our final authority and not the greek and hebrew?
TheKJVberean 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean I disagree. A mistranslation would no longer be God's words but man's. How can a mistranslation bring the exact same message as the original? If the original writer intended temporal but the translator put permanent, the 2 messages are obviously different.
rrusco 8 months ago
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Yes, Virginia, when SS-soldiers were bashing the heads in of Jewish children, it wasn't really the SS-soldiers that sinned, they were directed by Satan to do this, and Satan was ordered to let them do this by the calvinist god. Calvinism in a nutshell. Don't ask, don't criticize, just sit up straight and worship the cosmic Caligula.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 9 months ago
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TennesseeOwnsMyBones 9 months ago
@rrusco No english translation is safe? So kids and adults alike need to learn hebrew and greek to have the Word of God? Give me a break, 2 Timothy 2:9 "...but the word of God is not bound." Modern Bibles use the "age" rendering alot. You need to stay away from the nay sayers and just read a Bible in your own language. God preserved his Word and we have it in english (KJV). ppl always love going back to the "greek" to find what a word "really" means, instead of Thus saith the Lord.
TheKJVberean 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean I agree with you somewhat here, however, I believe that we should be careful and actually look at the Hebrew and study the Greek with a Hebrew mindset when it comes to real Biblical studies.
dragonify101 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean We're all under the assumption that the 66 books are God's word when the books themselves never say so. When you say that "God has preserved His word" this is taken from the Council of Carthage in the 4th century and Martin Luther's declaration. The only biblical reference to this is 1 tim 3:16 (Pauline). However, inspiration by God doesn't make it His word. Many things in this world are inspired by HIm. Ultimately, God's word is just His word (literally). Like Psalm 119.
rrusco 8 months ago
Sorry, I don't mean 2 offend anyone, but this vid is unclear. The concept of the elect & predestination has been misinterpreted, imho. The elect r God's "chosen people", the early Jews. He ELECTED them 2 spread His message. They were predestined for this role in history. If God chose who would be saved even b4 He created the world, then y did Jesus die ? Y b a good Christian, y come 2 Christ, y follow the commandments, IF in the end it's not going 2 help w/ salvation?
SomethingReal1119 9 months ago
@SomethingReal1119 That's just it. The reason why Jesus died is for the elect. It is the elect that come to Christ and follow the commandments. Also, Christians don't follow commandments TO be saved. We do it BECAUSE we're saved. It's God and God alone that saves.
rrusco 9 months ago
@prettylola Thats what they did, correct. Just as I did. Satan comes as an angel of light, calvinism is not biblical whatsoever. Calvinism twists scripture to fit the theology, and make sure your using a KJV, the other bibles are corrupted. In love..
TheKJVberean 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean Sorry to burst your bubble but the KJV has problems. No English translation is safe. Check the original Hebrew and Greek. You can get this at scripturetext (dotcom) The KJV uses terms like "everlasting" and "forever and ever" (which is a Hebrew idiom "ages of the ages"). Think about it: you don't need ANYTHING after forever. That alone says something. By the way, the word in Hebrew is "owlam" and "aion" in Greek meaning age. Was Jonah (ch 2 verse 4)in a whale forever?
rrusco 9 months ago
The biggest misconception of the Arminian is this: Arminians think that the reason to preach is to save people.
Wrong.
The reason to preach is to glorify God. His mercy is glorified in those whom He saves. And His Justice is glorified in those who reject Him.
The saving of the people is just a means to an end. Yep. A means to an end? Sounds immoral? It's not. For a man to use another man is immoral. For God to use men is His absolute right.
We need a God centered perspective.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
I hate this false doctrine SO much. All it does is turn everyone into little puppets, and makes God look like some evil tyrant that has no compassion. It also creates classes among the body of Christ...like you are the elect, and if you do enough good, you get better rewards than other believers that don't. Same with 'the elect' vs. unbelievers....we are just somehow BETTER because we were picked and they were not !!! S I C K sick !
oldpreach 10 months ago
@oldpreach What I find sick is the teaching of eternal damnation. The word "hell" is wrong. It means concealed, hidden (the same root as hall) It was inspired by Nordic Mythology (the Goddess Hel) and greek mythology. Hellenization led Tatarus to be associated with Gehenna (not hell (hidden) but a dumping place) which is where you get fire. Nordic - prisoners Gehenna - prisoners. This is the connection. There is punishment (annihilation) for the unsaved but redemptive & known only to God.
rrusco 8 months ago
@oldpreach Being among the elect doesn't make you BETTER. You are just part of His divine plan. There's a "plan" for the non-elect. This is known ONLY to God himself. It's redemptive as well. God is no respector of persons. Theological truths come first. Before what we "think" the bible says (so called "eternal damnation" which by the way is age-during destruction).
rrusco 8 months ago
Calvin was an evil man that had those that did not agree with him burned at the stake. Why would I EVER take his lame predes doctrine seriously ? Predes and eternal security is just a cop out for those that are dry as a bone spiritually and can not reconcile their carnality with Bible's teaching on living in the Spirit. They can't understand why they feel so carnal all the time, but are supposed to have the Spirit. The trouble is, they NEVER got the Spirit in the first place.
oldpreach 10 months ago
naturally this would pull the human string of emotions, but God protected his messenger "bald guy" from the gang "bunch of kids" because the message is was too important. God is communicating and revealing himself to humanity in various ways (Hebrews ch 1). this also accounts for why and how other animals could talk miraculously, why? the message how? well He's God.
111byfaith111 10 months ago
this also includes Me a Christian saved according to that same Gospel, and this also includes you should you believe, we're clearly not that "nation" of people referred to in the old testament that God chose and yet here we are just as relevant to God's story. check out the New Testament you'll see how letters went out to the Gentiles revealing Gods purpose to save even them if they believe. Have you ever seen a street gang, this is a better description of your "bunch of kids."
111byfaith111 10 months ago
for the other nations, you can see there outcome by reading the rest of the bible story, they would be considered gentiles which the Gospel reads that " Jesus Christ died on the cross so those who believe could live both Jews who were the chosen people and Gentiles who are everyone else,"
111byfaith111 10 months ago
@live4pce If parrots can talk, is it so far fetched for the "snake" in the garden who was also Satan by the way (Ezekiel 28). The same God who protected the "bald man" in order that His message would go out, is the same God that saved a "nation" of people who refused to worship and obey his commandments their also known as "God's chosen people."
111byfaith111 10 months ago
there is no ELECT. your fate is not predetermined. I think people who believe this stuff just want to feel special. its all human elitism. everyone wants to feel special or elected its the nature of man to create separation for some reason. what sense would it make to create people and predestine their lives and then say they have free will? free will and predestination cannot co-exist!
live4pce 10 months ago
@live4pce Did God himself not "elect" or "set apart" Israel for himself? No, it is those who think that they can override God's sovereignty with the human characteristic of "free will" that think they are special. It would take a special person indeed to override the decrees and sovereign plans of an Almighty God!
prettylola1 10 months ago
@prettylola1 you say that as if you KNOW that god has done what u claim. how do you know? sounds like a bunch of humans to me making up these silly rules and ideas. your only proof is the bible and your gut feeling..aka non reliable evidence. i don't believe "god" has anything to do with that book or any of the other books. they were written and pieced together by men. men decided what would go in and would would stay out..that doesn't sound very divine for to me. our lives are not predetermined
live4pce 10 months ago
@live4pce na bro it sounds like your argument its a whole lot of human pride nothing but your own gut feeling n pride non reliable evidence you give
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 im sorry, but its not a gut feeling that tells me the bible is not divine its simple common sense. you have been conditioned to think lowly of yourself as you are, HUMAN. tell me what sense it would make to create something destined to burn forever? the fact is we make choices in our lives and we have to live with the choices we make. you religion is based on a book that was assembled and written and edited by human beings. there is no elect or chosen people.
live4pce 10 months ago
@live4pce Wow! It definitely sounds like you have never looked into the validity of the bible before. I would encourage you to do that before you make such assumptions. If it was not inspired by God's Spirit, and it was just written by men, then why would they put such bad things about themselves in there? I know that if I were telling a "story" about my life and experiences I would want to put myself in the best possible light! But they don't do that. Hum...makes you wonder!
prettylola1 10 months ago
im sorry but when a book says in one chapter that a talking snake tricked a woman, you should ritually kill animals to cleanse your self from "sin" , and stone and kill non believers and donkeys can talk as well...forgive me if i dont take it a historical fact. if i wrote a book saying my dog talked to me no one would believe me because its clearly a lie.
live4pce 10 months ago
even with out the obvious talking snakes and animals and world floods, the bible is still not divine simply becasue of its doctrine adn contradictions. what kind of God would kill a bunch of kids with bears because they made fun of a bald man? what kind of God allows human being to be bought and sold? what kind of god chooses one nation over another? what kind of divine all knowing being would instruct someone to kill members of other religions? this is how i can see the validity of your bible.
live4pce 10 months ago
@live4pce and you are looking at those "fairy tales" and "contradictions" from a fallen state! We are sinners and we have no right to tell God that he is wrong for "this-or-that" just because we don't think it is fair or scientifically empirical. However, I will pray for you live4pce.
prettylola1 10 months ago
@prettylola1 you pray and i will continue to think.
live4pce 10 months ago
@live4pce wha...I...oh, I get it: Christians do not use their brains! Man, that is original. A "thank you for praying for me" would have sufficed, but I must say I expected a little less contention from someone named live4pce...just saying....
prettylola1 9 months ago
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Water4Jeremiah 10 months ago
Its 9 oclock in germany. will come back to your comments on monday. ONe thing ahead: on youtube there is a great video from Paul Washer . Search for him and the terms election, predestination. He does a great job explaining this. Our free will to choose God got hung on the tree , and it really comes back if you think sinners are totally depraved or not. if you think they are ´meaning, they will always hate god, unless God draws them (see john 14)
Lets hang on to Grace. Why shouldnt we ?
davidanful 10 months ago
Another point about predestination. Y do we need to give our hearts to God? Because God does not have our hearts & God does not just take our hearts; WE need to give our hearts to God in order to be God's. God has everything, all creation is His, but if U doNT GIVE Him your heart, He does NOT have U. So, we choose, we r NOT predestined, & even if God knows ur future & ur end, YOU chose every step of the way that took u there.
atamotua64 10 months ago
@atamotua64 God cannot have a perfect foreknowledge of what you will "choose" if his foreknowledge hinges on your moment by moment decisions. Therefore, in order to have a perfect foreknowledge, God also has to predestine us ("For those God foreknew he also predestined...").
prettylola1 10 months ago
@prettylola1
Ah ha! Finish that verse you're quoting. It says, "...to be conformed to the image of Christ."
1st notice the audience Paul is writing this to - Christian. 2nd notice the focus of the epistle - exhortation. He is not reminding them of the means by which they were saved, but the fact that God has foreordained them to live lives that are conformed to the image of Christ. Nowhere in scripture is the context of predestination salvific. It is, however, pertaining to holiness.
Anyways.
DanPrinMan 9 months ago
@DanPrinMan Actually, you are only 1/5 correct in saying Romans 8:29, 30 is only pertaining to holiness. It is pertaining to Predestination, Calling, Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification (The Golden Chain). This process describes our past (predetermined), present, and future (glorification) salvation. Nowhere in scripture is the context of predestination salvific? How about: Eph. 1:5, 1:11; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; and Romans 9:23?
prettylola1 9 months ago
@atamotua64 "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases." Proverbs 21:1
prettylola1 9 months ago
Another point about predestination. Y do we need to give our hearts to God? Because God does not have our hearts & God does not just take our hearts; WE need to give our hearts to God in order to be God's. God has everything, all creation is His, but if U doNT GIVE Him your heart, He does NOT have U.
atamotua64 10 months ago
@wolfec ok, i mistook u for someone else... ;) regardless, the messages are good for all who read and heed them... God bless... And Jesus is coming soon, sooner than we think... i cant wait, but i will
atamotua64 10 months ago
God does not do devil's work, devil doesNTdo God's work. God will never put devil in charge of hell. God has absolutely nothing to share with devil. God will punish devil & evil angels along side the wicked; devil will punish no one. Wicked will receive punishment they deserve while the saved will receive rewards they do NOT deserve. Noone deserves what Christ prepared for those who accept Him; salvation is FREE but NOT cheap & it's urs by Grace thru faith in Christ
atamotua64 10 months ago
@indeed478 God allows bad things to happen now, because of the nature of things since sin entered our world. God does not do evil so that after He can use it for good; Bible says that WHEN evil or bad things happen, God uses that & tries to turn it around for good. Y would God do something evil so after He can turn it to good? y not God do good to begin with? Lets be careful here in what we assign to God. Remember, God does not do the devil's work, neither does the devil do God's work.
atamotua64 10 months ago
@indeed478 Lucifer chose to separate himself from God; it started as a small idea, & no one knew what sin meant, it had never happened before, but Lucifer started doubting Gods love & His just character; he had absolutely no reason for it, sin has NO excuse, it's one of the great mysteries which no one can nor will they be able to explain nor excuse; if u excuse sin, then u accuse God of being unloving & unjust; & Lucifer started raising doubts in other angels minds, hence his followers.
atamotua64 10 months ago
@darwin047 u mean God made creatures TO disobey Him and so that they go against Him? u mean God created things that would go against His system nad Kingdom? read the gospels, it says there that not even the devil will do things against their own kingdom. but God does? common, let's be serious.
atamotua64 10 months ago
IMAGINE someone gives you a video recording of a future event (i know, not possible for us). You start watching it & see all that everyone does & chooses in their life. So now you know some of the things that will happen to & with those ppl which you've just watched in the video. Does the fact that you now know what those ppl will do mean that they were predestined? I'd be laughing hard if you said yes.
atamotua64 10 months ago
Also an important issue that is totally misunderstood in the criticism of predestination: Do you know who is elect ? NO .. nobody knows except God. So how can you say, that calvinists do evangelize only to the elect ? Its an antinomy, everything is predetermined and yet, we are fully responsible for our actions
davidanful 10 months ago
@davidanful I think i get ppl's confusion. Also, I know God has all things under control. Now, i dont get y so many have a problem with the following: Just because God has the power & ability to KNOW the future, does NOT mean that God predestined things to be a certain way. We could say HE MADE some things be a certain way, He wills for some things to be a certain way, but He obviously GAVE FREEDOM of CHOICE to everyone. God does not choose who will be saved, read John 3:16.
atamotua64 10 months ago
Even under the free will theory, it is still predestination.
If God is almighty and create TIME, he certainly controls it and knows who will be saved or not.
Now if he knew that by creation of Bob (who will go to Hell - and God knows it), God by foreknowing it, has predestined it. Otherwise he could have let another person in the "act of creation" be born.
So even if Bob has not chosen God through his free will decision, you automatically have predestination from the vantage point of God.
davidanful 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
God knew we going to sin bc it is in our hearts to do
God knew that sin would cause us to be seperated from him and lead us to hell
God than decided that he was going to save person A but not person B
Person B than is sent to be tortured for all of time without any say or way to save himself
Can a Pro Predestination defender explain how this is an action of a loving GOD?
fuzzylogic99 10 months ago
God knew we going to sin bc it is in our hearts to do
God knew that sin would cause us to be seperated us from him and lead us to hell
God than decided that he was going to save person A but not person B
Person B than is sent to be tortured for all of time without any say or way to save himself
Can a Pro Predestination defender explain how this is an action of a loving GOD?
fuzzylogic99 10 months ago
@fuzzylogic99
If I see a crowed of homeless people, and decide to give some of them a meal, but not all of them, am I being unjust or unloving? No one can accuse me of being anything but gracious or loving for having given anything to them.
Its easy, you are trying to understand the mind of God, it wont happen.
Repent and believe, and you will be granted eternal Glorious life. You may have already done this, but you trying to understand if God is fully loving or not is missing the point.
rbeasley123 10 months ago
@fuzzylogic99 Because he chose to save anyone makes him a loving God. None of us deserve his grace, but all of us enjoy his common grace to one extent or another (food, shelter, water, clothes, jobs, family, friends, etc.). Some of us enjoy his saving grace, but none of us deserve it because we are all sinners. I may send money to a starving child in Africa, but just because I don't send all my money to starving children everywhere would you call me "unloving". Of course not
prettylola1 10 months ago
Respond to this video... so why call God that?
prettylola1 10 months ago
Sorry guys, Don't know why there's two replys.
indeed478 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I'll answer by asking a question to you. If God's the author of Good, doesn't that mean He's the author of evil too? If not then who is?
Ohh and God can use His people to go evangelize to reach the lost sheep. Pretty simple if you ask me. lol "Heaven knows how many souls are going to hell and to heaven so we gotta go and get em" God uses us, and even planned for us to go evangelize. Meaning that He would reach some by using us. No brainer
indeed478 10 months ago
Stick your organi\zded relig[piojpqio34uq3ihjgfo;askldjf;oweuih[09'e45hgb UP YOUR ASS!
SpincterManBubba 11 months ago
God did not predestine anyone... just cause He knows who's who, does not predestinate... it's like saying that you knowing fire burns will predestinate someone TO get burned...
atamotua64 11 months ago
@atamotua64 Then how do you explain the large amounts of scripture that directly calls these people "the elect" ??? Why is this so hard to believe? Just open your Bible, it's all in there.
wolfec 10 months ago
@wolfec Yes there are & were some special figures who we can say God chose to perform certain tasks & missions. Think about Moses, he was chosen to deliver His ppl from Egypt, did Moses really want to? NO, God had to plead with him over & over, til Moses finally said OK. But then look at CHOSEN who finally lost their salvation, prophets like Balaam who turned on God & His ppl. Look at King Saul, at first he was a humble man of God, then he hardened his heart & died as a lost man.
atamotua64 10 months ago
@atamotua64 But God also chose to harden Pharaoh's heart. This caused great anguish and conflict for both Egyptians and Israelites (in the form of more labor and harsher treatment). However, God used his hardening of Pharaoh's heart to bring about the freedom of his people! The same can be said King Saul. God made a way for David to get the throne!
prettylola1 10 months ago
@wolfec God chooses those who choose HIM, those who are WILLING to do God's will & be obedient to Him, always. God did NOT create a show where everything was setup, stage, actors, all in place, the good & the evil, what would be the point of having a set stage, a rigged 'life'? God is NOT a master puppetier, He is love & He let things be real. God does not force anyone to be saved though He so wishes that all would choose to be saved. Jesus died for ALL, ANYONE. John 3:16
atamotua64 10 months ago
@atamotua64 That's what I was saying...? lol. I agree with that. I'm a reformed.
wolfec 10 months ago
@atamotua64 So one's salvation is conditional: they have to earn it by doing something and choosing God? I thought that works-salvation thing was what the apostles preached against so heavily. "It is by Grace that you are saved, not of yourselves..." and "Salvation is of the Lord". I don't see why some Christians hold on to the concept of "free will" when the Bible also says that, we are "slaves to sin"...that doesn't sound very free to me!
prettylola1 10 months ago
@prettylola1 I feel so sorry for you. Your ignorance is just so deep and profound.
oldpreach 10 months ago
@oldpreach Deeper than you know my friend because I failed to see where you referenced my "ignorance" in your post...oh wait...that's because you didn't. Look you may not like my position, but that is no reason to attack me with empty accusations that have no validity. From all your previous posts, it sounds as though you have an axe to grind with us Calvinists. Hope you can learn how to tell the truth in love one day my friend!
prettylola1 9 months ago
@prettylola1 Go ahead and worship your burn people at the stake false teacher Calvin...it won't get you anywhere since you don't even hold to his original positions. The fact that you mentioned being a slave to sin with freewill shows what I am talking about. By doing that, you have not exhibited the ability to think critically about the subject. As if we are slaves to sin now that Christ has set us free ? If predest is true, and God is just, why didn't he just predest EVERYONE ???
oldpreach 9 months ago
@oldpreach Please be more specific: How do I not hold to his original positions? I never said that Christians are slaves to sin (only the unregenerate are)...so not to sure where you are going with that. A better question would be: If predestination is true, and God is just, why does he predestine ANYONE??? Because we all fall short of the glory of God!
prettylola1 9 months ago
@atamotua64 Then isn't He predestining us because He is seeing in us something that is motivating Him to save us? If our faith motivates God to save us, then it must have some merit in God's eyes, otherwise it would not motivate God to save us." Then God is looking into the future in order to learn. This would violate His attribute of omniscience. In other words, if God is looking into the future to see our choices, then this means God is constrained by time
prettylola1 9 months ago
@atamotua64 (cont) (otherwise He would not have to look into the future). The truth is that God is omniscient and knows all things all the time. He does not have to look anywhere, anytime to discover anything. To say that He looks into the future to see who would pick Him and then He predestines them is to say that God essentially is learning and adapting to the knowledge He gains in His future looking.
prettylola1 9 months ago
We evangelize because we don't know who the elect are. The Gospel is the means to call the elect to Himself.
ContraMondial 11 months ago
Predestination and Individual soul Liberty (free will) illustrate a mind which we don't have: God's. I ask the same questions and feel the same tension. God Chose us and we choose him. The point is to be faithful to scripture as told here. If you can't except that, then you can't except that God is also sovereign and in control. Man just can't get over his desire to understand everything and be in control.
hornedone72 11 months ago
These aren't very good answers to a "why?" question.
- because you're supposed to
- because you're privileged to do it
- because how they will come to know Christ is also predestined
I don't understand what the purpose of evangelism is, if salvation has nothing to do with what man does in presenting the Gospel to unbelievers.
The elect will be saved regardless of whether we obey God's command to evangelize.
DanPrinMan 11 months ago
@DanPrinMan You answered your own question at point #3 (witnessing is ALSO predestined). You followed your answer with the question. In fact, all things are predestined (Isaiah 46:10) . Witnessing is HOW the elect will be saved. The irony here is that Romans 8 and 9 brings up predestination and Romans 10 (verse 14-15) answers the biggest objection. In other words, everyone stops at ch9 without reading ch10. Matthew 22:14 sums it up. The calling is the witnessing, the chosen - the elect.
rrusco 11 months ago
@rrusco
"Predestined?" He's not saying He has destined things all things beforehand to happen. He is saying "I declare what is to come from all time, and I can say this because I will do (present tense) all I desire." He is declaring his present action throughout all time, not that he has predestined all things. This seems to emphasize God as relational-one who is always presently working in and with us. If he CAN do this then he can rightly say that he declares the "end from the beginning."
DanPrinMan 10 months ago
@DanPrinMan Ahh but it says at the end of the verse, "...all I desire". God wins all the time! Declare means determine. It doesn't mean He's being relational. The context is addressing the Jews who are getting caught up in the teachings of dualism (Persian). He's simply saying to worship Him because He's the one that's in complete control. There's nowhere else to look. That's the context and point of the passage.
rrusco 9 months ago
@rrusco
You say God predestines all things. One question: was God the author and initiator of sin - the very thing that displeases him?
If all things are predestined then there is no real reason that man ought to evangelize since it is only up to God to save certain people. Man can do nothing for himself, nor for anyone else in order to be save.
If God has predestined all things then why are we expected to evangelize? There would be no need to command something that God will do regardless.
DanPrinMan 10 months ago
@DanPrinMan I'll answer by asking a question to you. If god's the author of Good, doesn't that mean he's the author of evil too? If not then who is?
Ohh and God can use his people to go evangelize to reach the lost sheep. Pretty simple if you ask me. lol "Heaven knows how many souls are going to hell and to heaven so we gotta go and get em" God uses us, and even planned for us to go evangelize. Meaning that he would reach some by using us. No brainer
indeed478 10 months ago
@indeed478
That's the exact same question I'm asking rrusco. I am saying that "IF" God predestines all things...
I don't believe God is the author of evil, it makes no sense Biblically and also logically. God was the author of the rejection of Himself? Also, God, not Satan, saw beforehand and somehow caused Adam and Eve to rebel against him. That defeats the very reason he created them.
So if God knows all who will be in heaven then can those freely choose any other path besides that? No.
DanPrinMan 10 months ago
@DanPrinMan I do believe God predestined all things. We are the ultimate cause of evil. It's our fault yes, but God allowed it. I'm saying He's in ultimate control of everyone, and everything so I have to say it was his plan for it to happen, but the blame is still on us. Without God planning things to happen, who knows what would of happened. Who knows if even Christ would of been Crucified! God planned for Christ to killed. He planned evil! But look what it did. All for the his glory!
JoshuaMI4 10 months ago
@JoshuaMI4
So, God predestined and planned for the fall to happen, and yet you say, man caused it? How is this so, in light of the meaning of predestination?
I would agree that God is "in control of all things" but does not control all things, as is the meaning of predestination.
God planned to destroy Nineveh, but He changed. He planned (or foresaw) Hezekiah's death, but then He changed His mind. God planned to bring the Israelite people to an end and start over, but he changed his mind.
DanPrinMan 10 months ago
@DanPrinMan My thoughts come from Theology. "God is the only necessary being." (One of the most common statements of Theology.) The bible must be seen in light of Theological truth. If nothing existed before God then all that appears now would come from God - there is no other power source! He controls everything. God was not going to destroy Nineveh - he called Jonah so that they wouldn't be destroyed.
rrusco 9 months ago
@JoshuaMI4 help me understand. We have no choice in this whatsoever, God planned it, He did everything, we're just puppets, YET WE ARE AT FAULT? If you see it that way, then HOW are WE at fault, if we're just preprogrammed actors? Also, the PLAN OF SALVATION existed, but it was NOT something God looked forward to, if need be to implement it. And CHRIST came TO GIVE HIS LIFE as an act of LOVE. OUR SIN forced God to lay down His life, The Creator giving ALL to His creation.
atamotua64 10 months ago
@JoshuaMI4 Yes WE are at fault, we have FREEDOM OF CHOICE & we CHOSE to disobey God & turn our backs on Him. Now we canNOT say that freedom of choice is bad, that would be the other extreme wrong idea. We need Freedom of Choice & stay on God's side. God created us perfect, with ability to structure our own lives, HOPING that we get to know Him, & accept Him, & love Him, for who He is & all He IS doing for us.
atamotua64 10 months ago
@DanPrinMan let's not confuse KNOWING with ALLOWING and with PREDESTINED. These are 3 different terms, with different meanings. Therefore, Knowing does NOT predestine. Also, Allowing does NOT predestine.
atamotua64 10 months ago
@atamotua64
No one's confusing that, on my side. I was quoting the statements of JoshuaMI4. In no way do I disagree with your definitions and them being separate. He said "God predestined all things" and "it was His plan for it (the fall) to happen." If this is so we are, as you've said, puppets and preprogrammed to fall form the beginning.
This, to me, is quite unbiblical and a poor view on the nature of God.
DanPrinMan 10 months ago
@indeed478 God never created anything evil, of any kind. God cannot even do that because it's NOT in His character, not in His nature, never will be. SIN = separation from God = evil => EVIL is the ABSENCE of GOOD, just like cold is absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light. Also God is infinite, but His creation is limited. God will not create OTHER gods. So whoever says we are or can be gods, that is NOT of God, that is of the devil, deceit & oldest lies in the book.
atamotua64 10 months ago
@atamotua64 I'm not saying He is, I'm just asking questions, but who would be? If you say Satan than what made him all bad? Cause God made him all good at first. Was it his own choice, or was it God's choice? Did Pharaoh choose to have his heart hardened, or did God do that? The thing you need to ask is why does everything happen. Go read the story of Joseph. Better yet read the Gospel. Both stories show how God's plan is to mean and use evil for good and to show his glory to all creation.
indeed478 10 months ago
@DanPrinMan The bible says, "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. What you sow you shall reap." Sin is ALWAYS punished and that pleases God. The origin of sin is a long debate but the point is that God wins in the end. His wrath pleases Him. Romans 10 answers your comment on evangelism. The same way that Barry Bonds uses a baseball bat to hit a home run (yet he's credited with the home run), God uses us to evangelize. Witnessing (from man) IS the method God uses to save.
rrusco 9 months ago
@DanPrinMan well said...
vjt989 11 months ago
@DanPrinMan Not true...if we don't evangelize the opportunity won't be there. If no one does it how will they meet Jesus?
wolfec 10 months ago
@wolfec
In light of Calvinism and predestination, that makes it sound as if God's salvation is contingent on the choice of believers to evangelize. This is not what Calvinism/reformed theology teaches. If I'm somehow mistaken and they do teach this, the problem I've stated still stands. God is the one who saves, and it is not dependent on the thoughts and inclinations of man to evangelize.
DanPrinMan 10 months ago
@DanPrinMan You answered your own question: God commanded us to do it.
prettylola1 10 months ago
@prettylola1
I'm not quite sure which statement of mine you're referring to.
DanPrinMan 10 months ago
@prettylola1 It was in response to your question of why evangelize as God commanded if we are predestined. Somehow it got placed in the wrong spot.
prettylola1 10 months ago
@prettylola1
Then the question could be asked: what purpose is there in obeying God's commandment to evangelize if saving is ultimately and solely up to God's predetermined election?
Just saying "because God commands us to, is not a very reasonable reason, if you will. It's like a parent telling his questioning child, "because I told you so." They're really not answering the question.
God has a purpose for evangelism - what is that purpose?
DanPrinMan 9 months ago
@DanPrinMan The purpose is to edify the Church. A church who is active in evangelism is also growing spiritually. I admit that saying "because God commanded it" seems somewhat unreasonable to you, but his ways are higher than ours. When standing before an omniscient God we have to conclude that we won't quite understand all of his "reasons". The latter part of Job may shed some light on how God views man's understanding of God's purposes.
prettylola1 9 months ago