You say Baptism is the new Circumcision. If the Jews werent Circumcised, werent they cut off from Gods People?
Also....Jesus used mud to heal eyes. He used 7 times washing in water to heal someone. Why cant he use baptism to connect you to his death,burial, and resurrection to forgive sins?
Your ways are not Gods ways. Faith without works is dead. The washing 7 times, the applying of mud to the blinds eyes are works that needed faith to make it function.
Words, words, words... follow Christ's lead and go get baptized by another Christian. Will God judge you to hell if you don't? Probably not, but know that Satan is the accuser before God. For each one of you that he can make willfully avoid baptism, he claims before God he's won.
1Cor 1 the Apostle Paul totally shoots down baptism in regards to completing salvation, totally. Look at the theme of the NT, faith , faith, faith. Also, water is a created thing just like us, this would mean that another created thing would aid in the salvation of another created thing; which makes no sense whatsoever.Salvation has to be available to all anytime/place, some on this earth hardly have enough water to drink, and what about the many deathbed confessions ?(gotta finds some water)
Titus 3:5 cont'ed - It is not for us to argue that God didn't have sufficient warrant to connect water and Jesus blood. If God can die on a cross He can touch us with the blood in water whose purpose must have included this from the very day of creation. We either serve the kind of God who is free to make these kinds of choices and connections or not. 5/5
Titus 3:5 - The idea that water as an element can be compared to the blood of Christ is at least in theory a point well taken. Right up to the point where God has set water apart to play a special role connected to Jesus blood. "Carnal" meaning physical, is both true of water and Jesus blood. Separating things that God has put together is counter productive. 4/5
Acts 22:16 - In addressing this verse you introduce Romans 6 and talk about how this shows the symbolic nature of Baptism. But that doesn't address if there is an efficacious effect too. In Rev 20:6 the "first resurrection" is clearly baptism, where we are raised to walk in newness of life Rom 6. If our participation in the first resurrection is totally symbolic, what faith can we have that our participation in the second resurrection will be real? Symbolism is not disputed, it is efficacy. 3/5
1 Peter 3:21 con'ted -If you ask, is baptism or Christs blood operative in salvation, you are creating a false choice. The bible doesn't pit these as alternatives to each other. The blood of Jesus washes away our sins but God appoints the time for this to occur. Is that time, concurrent with baptism? That reading makes good sense of this passage. 2/5
1 Peter 3:21 - Here u eventually make the right point. Baptism is "an appeal to God, for a good conscience." This "appeal" is another way to say, "call upon the name of the Lord," 4 salvation. That vindicates the words, "Baptism now doth save us." The other points, if granted, don't change our understanding of the foregoing irreducible observations. If you ask is baptism or Christs blood operative n salvation you are creating a false choice. The bible doesn't pit these apposed to each other. 1/5
wow you contradict yourself ! well your wrong and take scripture out of context . yes baptism is neccessary for salvation . beleive me ive heard better discussions . you are not saved sir and i bet your say a prayer so whers that at
wow you contradict yourself ! well your wrong and take scripture out of context . yes baptism is neccessary for salvation . beleive me ive heard better discussions .
Mark 16:16 ~ Belief + baptism = salvation. However, why doesn't it say "non belief + non baptism = non salvation"? Illustration: He who eats his food and digests it will live, but whoever doesn't eat will die. Similarrly, baptism follows logically from belief. Furthermore, John 3:18 says that whoever does not believe is condemned already! So, there was no need for Jesus to say, "but whoever does not believe and is not baptized..."
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. ~1 Corinthians 15:1-2
We are saved by the gospel and must firmly hold to it as the apostles taught it. Otherwise we believe in vain.
@miket1m Yes its that by the Gospel that we are saved, here what Paul says:
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." 1 Cor 1:17
This verse is important because it shows that Baptism is not part of the Gospel. Water Baptism is a work of Righteousness which is a response to the Gospel in which all believers do.
"Baptism is a work" Well, it is something you do (so is repenting, believing [John 6:29] etc.), but not in the sense of a work by which you obligate God to save you (as spoken in Romans 4:4).
Do we believe into Christ? No! In fact, the "into" Christ terminology is only used in connection with baptism (Romans 6:3, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:26) Non Christians are outside of Christ, Christians are in Christ. To get into a right relationship with God, you must be baptized.
@miket1m You said that Believing, Repenting is YOUR WORK. Did you change your heart or did the Gospel change your heart. Did you change your mind, or did God changed your mind?
"...This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29
@miket1m We do not Believe unto Christ, The Gospel makes us Believe and the Gospel Saves.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor 12:13
This is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Not water baptism. This happens when you believed the Gospel. Acts 15:7-11.
The new life begins in baptism (Romans 6:4). To claim that the new life begins before baptism (that we are born again first) is to say that the new creation is put to death! How can you be "born again" then die in baptism, and come up out of the water, "born again" again?
@miket1m To be born of water is your natural fleshly birth, not water baptism as Jesus explains in John 3:6. Only God control your natural birth just like your spiritual birth, because many women cannot conceive and miscarry. Spiritaul birth is a miracle just like natural birth(Water). That's what it means to be born again.
To understand Romans 6, Paul uses water baptism as symbolism(Rom 6:6-10) to live a new life unto God. The death of your old life and life anew to God.
@miket1m Saying a prayer cannot save you, water baptism cannot save you. No body gestures or lip service can save you. Believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior, saves.Plenty scripture on that, John 3:16 for starters.
Baptize or Baptiszo means to immerse:
"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Acts 1:5
Jesus clearly distinguished there is water baptism and Spiritual baptism, which is shown on the day of Pentecost, no water involved.
@miket1m When you hear the Gospel and Believe that Jesus is Your Lord and Christ as Peter said in Acts 2:36, you are righteous before you open your mouth and water baptize. It is with the Heart you believe in the Lord Jesus and Justified as Peter explains in Acts 15:7-11.
@miket1m Baptism is called symbolic in 1 Peter 3:21 saying that water is not a sin cleansing agent, but a Good Conscience to God through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ Saves. When you read "Good Concience" that translates into faith, which is an intangible. Romans 6:6-10 directly shows that Baptism is symbolism of the Death and resurrection of Chrst, Gal 3:27 says baptism is putting on clothing(Symbolism), Col 2:12 again calls baptism a "circumcision", which is symbolism.
@Judgement220 "This is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Not water baptism." How many baptisms do you think are in force today? Eph 4: 4-6 says there is ONE, but you have mentioned TWO.
@lllllannalllll There is only 1 baptism that baptizes you into the body of Christ, it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it happens when you believe what you heard of the Gospel.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor 12:13
For by ONE SPIRIT, not water, But Spirit, we are baptized into the body of Christ.
@Judgement220 "There is only 1 baptism that baptizes you into the body of Christ, it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit" Blah, you do not have any Holy Spirit baptism - you are not completely and entirely overwhelmed in the Holy Spirit. Nor do I. The ONLY people who ever had that were the apostles - they didn't need a Bible: they wrote it. People today do not need to "take no care as to what they will say" nor do they recall "all things said by Jesus." Those baptized in the Spirit DID.
@lllllannalllll Didn't you read the rest of 1 Corinthians 12, that not all speak in tongues and have all the gifts of the Spirit, only certain believers have certain gifts of the spirit, 1 cor 12:1-10. that means only the Apostles attain all the gifts of the Spirit, but other then them all other believers have only certain gifts or ministry from the Spirit as he allows.
@Judgement220 "There is only 1 baptism that baptizes you into the body of Christ." Bear in mind that I didn't ASK specifically about any baptism that baptizes one into the body of Christ, nor did Eph 4: 4-6 place such stipulations on it. Eph 4: 4-6 simply says there is ONE baptism, period - and I believe that: there is ONE, and it is water baptism. I asked YOU how many there are, today.
@lllllannalllll, If you don't have the Holy SPirit, you don't belong to Christ, Rom 8:9, therefore only 1 baptism gives you the Holy Spirit, hear Peter describing the conversion of Conelius:
"Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost." Acts 11:16
Then Paul said in 1 Cor 12:13, that by ONE SPIRIT, WE ARE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY.
Not just the Apostles, But ALL BELIEVERS in CHRIST!
@Judgement220 "If you don't have the Holy SPirit, you don't belong to Christ" HAVING the Holy Spirit, which is promised to all who have obeyed the gospel, is QUITE DIFFERENCE from being BAPTIZED - totally immersed the Spirit. TELL US: TO WHOM was the baptism of the Holy Spirit promised? Not some GIFT of the Spirit, not an indwelling promised to all Christians, but a total, complete immersion? Did it occur to you that there are NO DEGREES in IMMERSION???
@Judgement220 "There is only 1 baptism that baptizes you into the body of Christ." Bear in mind that I didn't ASK specifically about any baptism that baptizes one into the body of Christ, nor did Eph 4: 4-6 place such stipulations on it. Eph 4: 4-6 simply says there is ONE baptism, period - and I believe that: there is ONE, and it is water baptism. I asked YOU how many there are, today. <-- don't forget that question - I'd like to see your answer
@Judgement220 Rom 8: 9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Oops, I fail to see ONE WORD there about being totally immersed in the Holy Spirit - there aren't any DEGREES in such an immersion, so evidently you claim Holy Spirit baptism just like Peter and Paul. If not, then you have something short of complete, total, every-inch-of-you IMMERSION in the Holy Spirit.
@lllllannalllll Clearly Water baptism doesn't give you the holy Spirit, but through faith, you are receive Holy Spirit Baptism.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" 1 Cor 12:13
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" Eph 1:13
@Judgement220 "Clearly Water baptism doesn't give you the holy Spirit, but through faith, you are receive Holy Spirit Baptism." Seems that you teach two baptisms - Holy Spirit baptism and water baptism - yet by the time Ephesians was written Paul was telling the Ephesians that there is ONE baptism. It makes no difference about "there is one baptism that gets you into the body.
@lllllannalllll "Eph 4: 4-6 simply says there is ONE baptism, period - and I believe that: there is ONE, and it is water baptism. I asked YOU how many there are, today. <-- don't forget that question - I'd like to see your answer" You forgot that: is the answer one, two, three, or how many?
@lllllannalllll "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Eph 4:4-6
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor 12:13
We are baptized into ONE body by One Spirit. there is your answer.
@Judgement220 "We are baptized into ONE body by One Spirit. there is your answer." I never asked your OPINION on I Cor 12: 13, as I recall: I asked how MANY baptisms YOU teach are in effect today. Since I you were answering that question, then quoted the verse that says there is ONE baptism, followed by a verse that YOU say is Holy Spirit baptism, then logically you teach ONE BAPTISM (which is correct) but you teach that WATER BAPTISM has ceased. So tell us when it ceased.
@Judgement220 (Of course, the truth is that you believe in TWO baptisms, but in an attempt to avoid the force of Eph 4, you QUALIFY the baptism by answering, "Well, we are baptized INTO ONE BODY by ONE SPIRIT". That's nothing but a dodge, but we'll soon find out. Since you can't give a NUMBER of baptisms that YOU teach (Paul didn't have that problem in Eph 4), just elaborate on WHEN WATER BAPTISM CEASED. That'll illuminate things for us.
@lllllannalllll There is only 1 baptism that is significant in salvation, the seal of promise of the Holy Spirit, which is done by God himself. Why do you not call the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a baptism of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit lives in a believer, that is baptism it the truest form.
@Judgement220 "If the Holy Spirit lives in a believer, that is baptism it the truest form." No, it's not - not at ALL. Who gave you THAT definition? Immersion - complete overwhelming - was promised to specific people, for a specific purpose, at a specific time. Holy Spirit baptism is just that: Holy Spirit immersion - there are no DEGREES of immersion. You're either compt.letely Holy Spirit baptized - or not at all. Who said Holy Spirit baptism was a seal of promise - I dont recall that.
@lllllannalllll I invite you to read the rest of 1 cor 12, which clearly teaches that no believer has all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but we are all baptized into 1 body by 1 Spirit. this means that every believer, in which every believer has the Holy Spirit, were baptized in the Holy Spirit, whether or NOT they displayed the miraculous SIGNS like prophesy and speaking in tongues.
1 Cor 12, proves your definition of Spirit Baptism is wrong, it does not mean you display signs of Spirit.
@Judgement220 "but we are all baptized into 1 body by 1 Spirit. this means that every believer, in which every believer has the Holy Spirit, were baptized in the Holy Spirit" I'd like to see you tell us who the ADMINISTRATOR of this current Holy Spirit baptism is and what the ELEMENT of Holy Spirit baptism is. According to you, I suppose the Holy Spirit is the BAPTIZER and the ELEMENT.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
This verse says "By One Spirit" we are all baptized. this means that the specified element is the Spirit.
Now who is the Administrator of this Spirit Baptism, According to John 1:33, it is Jesus Christ. Acts 1:5,11:16. Only Jesus has this authority.
@Judgement220 "This verse says "By One Spirit" we are all baptized. this means that the specified element is the Spirit." That's surprising! If I said I was baptized by one preacher - that means the PREACHER BAPTIZED ME, does it not? So you think the ELEMENT of my water baptism is the preacher who baptized me?
@lllllannalllll the reason I said "By One Spirit" is the element is because of the end of the verse "Made to drink into ONE spirit" Specifying that Spirit is the element. John the Baptists witnessed and said that Jesus is the administrator of Holy SPirit baptism.
@Judgement220 Yes, Jesus is the administrator of Holy Spirit baptism, so Holy Spirit baptism is not done "By one Spirit" if the Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
"And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." John 1:33
Jesus says:
"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Acts 1:5
@Judgement220 ""For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Acts 1:5" TO WHOM was this promise GIVEN. You can only mention what scripture teaches, so you might as well mention to whom the promise was made.
@lllllannalllll Then Why did Peter reiterate what Jesus said in Acts 1:5 to the Jerusalem council in Acts 11:16, in Acts 1:5, Jesus was talking to his disciples, but notices it was 120 brethren that showed the miraculous signs of the Spirit in Acts 2. The whole point of bringing up 1 Cor 12:13, is because you have this notion like many others who define the baptism of the Holy Ghost as only showing the miraculous signs of the Spirit like Acts 2. In this chapter Paul defies that definition.
@Judgement220 "Jesus was talking to his disciples, but notices it was 120" Nope, it was only the apostles. In the promise given by Jesus in Acts 1: 5 ("but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost"), the "ye" answers to "ye", "they", "them", and "them" and "whom" in Acts 1: 4, "them" in Acts 1: 3, and whole group answers to "apostles" in Acts 1: 3. Upon fulfillment, beginning in Acts 2: 2-3, the same situation exists: "them", "they", back to "apostles" in v. 26 in chapter 1.
@lllllannalllll Now you can't use by your preacher you are baptized in this verse, because the subject of the verse is "ONE Spirit", which is teh Same spirit you drink. You can drink your preacher.
When you water baptize, you can say by Water you are baptize and you drink water.
@Judgement220 Actually, it is good that the ASV, which I prefer anyway, says "in one Spirit" instead of "by one Spirit". That is probably more accurate. The NIV gives "in" or "with" as acceptable alternate translations. To me, the meaning of the passage has always been obscure - every commentator that writes on it assigns different shades of meaning to it, and I'd be suspicious of one who claims to know THE meaning - when Calvin, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, McGarvey, et al ALL DIFFERED.
@Judgement220 "you can say by Water you are baptize and you drink water." I don't think the Bible EVER says we are "baptized by water" - and I have never heard it or said it. I think typically people who are baptized are baptized by another person IN water.
@lllllannalllll The key word of this verse is the Greek word "EN" which has many meanings: "in, on, at, by, with" and in English you can say you were baptized by water. In English you can say you were hit by a car when its really the driver of the car that hit you. Its perfectly legal to say that you are baptized "by" water.
@Judgement220 "In English you can say you were hit by a car when its really the driver of the car that hit you." The driver may be OPERATING the car by the car is what HIT you. The example I've heard is "I was SHOT by John Smith". John Smith was in CONTROL of the whole thing, but technically it was the GUN that shot you. John Smith was the administrator, and the gun was element or device used. There are SEVERAL "keys" in that verse - some think the "drink" refers to "wine" in the Supper.
@lllllannalllll The point of 1 Cor 12:13 is that the "One Spirit" is used as a baptizing element and drinking element. The wine represents the blood of Christ that was shed for the remission of SIns Matt 26:28, but this drink of 1 clearly shows in indwelling of the Spirit which resides in the body of believers.
@Judgement220 Another "point" concerning 1 Cor 12: 13 is that Bloomfield, Calvin, Doddridge, Sadler, Beet, Matthew Henry, B. .W.Johnson, A. T. Robertson, Wesley, McGarvey, and many, MANY others all say that the "baptism" or 1 Cor 12: 13 is "water baptism". Others - FEWER - say that it is Holy Spirit baptism. Clarke said, "On this verse there is a great profusion of various readings." AMEN to that!
@lllllannalllll WOW, way to twists on the commentaries. Most commentaries shows how Paul uses Holy Spirit baptism that is parallel to Water baptism and Paul uses Drink in to 1 spirit as to communion or the Lord's supper. That is very clear that Paul uses 2 rites or on this same verse to show that it is the Holy Spirit not the rites that matters. Then tell me, do you also think that "Drink into 1 Spirit" means that its wine that gives you the Spirit like the Catholics?
@Judgement220 ""Drink into 1 Spirit" means that its wine that gives you the Spirit like the Catholics?" Nope, I don't believe in "wine regeneration" any more than I believe in "baptismal regeneration." "WOW, way to twists on the commentaries." LOLOL well, you be sure an tell me WHICH of those commentators you think I twisted, and I'll be sure to provide the exact quote with reference to I Cor 12: 13.
@Judgement220 Here is Beet for example, from his "Christian Baptism", pp. 18-19: "This refers probably to baptism by water. For we have here no suggestion of any other than the ordinary meaning of the word 'baptize.' " That's sorta hard to twist! If you really think one is TWISTED, then name it.
@Judgement220 "You know, I'm not here to debate about commentaries, I'm here to debate about scripture." Nor am I, but on an obscure scripture, I suppose what other people, those of high scholarship, think might be considered, and NOT A ONE of the them agree. It's about like John 3: 8: I've never HEARD a person give an interpretation of the verse that didn't PERFECTLY AGREE with what the person ALREADY BELIEVED. Both will be "spun" to mesh with preconceived ideology.
@lllllannalllll High Scholarship is very important should be used to understand the Greek, because we do not understand the culture and the language use of Koine Greek. But also we have to understand that they are not infallible either and using context of the Bible we can support our interpretation of verses.
@Judgement220 "But also we have to understand that they are not infallible either" I'm sure they are not, and they all believe or believed the same thing (unless a pope wrote a commentary, maybe) ... and when they went as far as they could go with grammar, culture, etc and gave THEIR interpretations, there are certain verses upon which there are about as many interpretations as there are commentators.
@Judgement220 "Using Eph 4:6 to show Paul is inciting there is no such thing as Spiritual Baptism, is pure folly on your part." I'll use it to show that IF immersion - complete submersion - in the Holy Spirit is in effect today the, by default, water baptism ceased at some point prior to Eph 4. IF water baptism - complete submersion in water - in still in effect, then Holy Spirit baptism ceased. You can't have ONE baptism - one immersion - in effect, then run around talking about TWO.
@lllllannalllll I went to read A.T. Robertson, he says that its by the Spirit all believers water baptize, basically saying you have to have the Holy Spirit before you baptize. I still think that is a streatch and still think its Holy Spirit Baptism.
@Judgement220 "I went to read A.T. Robertson, he says that its by the Spirit all believers water baptize, basically saying you have to have the Holy Spirit before you baptize." Yep, and I dont AGREE with all he says, but I DID NOT misrepresent him: to him, the "baptism" of I Cor 12: 13 is WATER BAPTISM.
@Judgement220 I do know that I reject any spin on the verse which puts it at odds with Eph 4: 4-6: Eph 4: 4-6 is PLAIN and not disputed (it might be ignored by some, but it's not disputed). Why don't you fill in the blank - "one Lord, one faith, ___ baptism ... " and tell us exactly how many baptisms there are today.
@lllllannalllll There is 1 Baptism that gets you into the body of Christ and its Holy Spirit Baptism according 1 Cor 12:13, don't try to twists commentaries saying it means water baptism, understand that this verse as the commentaries say, it represents 2 rites, Baptism and the Lord Supper-both doesn't save, only the indwelling or baptism of the Holy Spirit.
@Judgement220 "There is 1 Baptism that gets you into the body of Christ and its Holy Spirit Baptism" Oh, yeah, we know what you ASSERT, and I'll keep that in mind if I ever decide to ask "How many baptisms get you into the body of Christ?" For NOW, however, I'll simply ask for the 3rd time, "How many b
@lllllannalllll (cont'd) "How many baptisms are there, PERIOD?" Can ya answer that? Here, I'll make it easy: just fill in the blank - "There are ____ baptisms in force or practice today." Can you fill in that blank with a 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 or something? Or do you feel a little more comfortable RE-wording it?
@lllllannalllll Eph 4:6 is talking about 1 baptism, Holy Spirit Baptism, there is only 1 baptism that can be done by Man ordained by God, Water Baptism.
@Judgement220 "Eph 4:6 is talking about 1 baptism, Holy Spirit Baptism, there is only 1 baptism that can be done by Man ordained by God, Water Baptism." Eph 4 simply says there is ONE baptism, as you well know - blah. 1 + 1 = 2, and regardless of how many little addendums/distractions attach to it, you believe in 2 baptisms, no matter how you view the relative importance of the two. You have TWO in operation now.
@Judgement220 "There is only 1 Baptism that matters Holy Spirit Baptism 1 Cor 12:13, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16." Well, I'm glad you have such a high regard for the Final Commission of Matt 28, but apparently you have ONE that matters, and another that doesn't matter much (if at all), and 1 + 1 = 2. Of course, you knew all that to begin with - just one of the lil disadvantages of your doctrine.
@lllllannalllll I also have a high regard for water baptism, but to claim that one is not saved without it, doesn't hold up in scripture. What is perfectly witnessed in the rest of scripture is that the focus is on Faith on Jesus as the right motive to water baptize and other works of righteousness.
@lllllannalllll Well, I have to disagree with you, the Only Baptism that counts, is a baptism no one can see the baptism done by God, Holy Spirit Baptism in Eph 4:6.
@Judgement220 "Well, I have to disagree with you, the Only Baptism that counts, is a baptism no one can see the baptism done by God, Holy Spirit Baptism" You mean to tell me that you have a "high regard" for water baptism, but a much HIGHER regard for Holy Spirit baptism and that both are in occurrence today - so when counting up "baptisms", you've decided that only counting the more important one to you is the way to go? That's about as clear as mud - and the Bible doesn't say that.
@lllllannalllll The point is that Eph 4 is talking about the Holy Spirit and the measure of Grace given by him to different people.
Now to support your claim that baptism is water baptism in Eph 4:6, the most sensible case for it is that what happened in 1 Cor 1:13-17, when people were divided to whom they were water baptized to. Many cliques formed and baptism was divided, Paul may be reaffirming his case that there is only 1 baptism, a baptism that is for the One Lord, One Father, One Spirit
@Judgement220 "The point is that Eph 4 is talking about the Holy Spirit" Very little, actually - Eph 4 deals with a number of subjects, and Holy Spirit baptism isn't even mentioned, is it? "The most sensible case for it is that what happened in 1 Cor 1:13-17". Paul was referring to a past event - one that may have happened years and years before - and yes, Paul is affirming indirectly that there is ONE baptism - baptism in water - in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
@Judgement220 "Define Holy Spirit baptism" Holy Spirit baptism is the complete immersion - the overwhelming - in the Holy Spirit. The administrator is Christ; the element is the Holy Spirit; there are no "measures" of a baptism: there are not different DEGREES of Holy Spirit baptism. It was promised specifically to the apostles - and every promise of the baptism in the Spirit points to Pentecost.
@Judgement220 (1) "how do you know if someone completely immersed or "overwhelming" in the Holy Spirit?" You would know, not because the person asserted it - for some who claim this are among the most ignorant "Pentecostalish" parasites disgracing the religious world. You'd know when you see someone in possession of the Spirit without measure - there were no "degrees" of Holy Spirit baptism: nobody was "partially baptized" in the Holy Spirit.
@Judgement220 A description of the person? The person would be filled, clothed, endued with power and have the Spirit without measure. He would be able to converse or speak in other languages, having never studied such a language. He would be able to take up serpents or drink poison and be harmed by neither. He would be able to heal the sick. In short, he would be able to TEACH the word to whomever and CONFIRM it once and for all. It STANDS confirmed -the Bible does not require reconfirmation.
@lllllannalllll You are speaking of what Jesus says of people who BELIEVE not baptize in the holy SPirit,
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. "
So this is a very inadaquate definition of baptism of the Holy Spirit.
@Judgement220 "So this is a very inadaquate definition of baptism of the Holy Spirit." Yes, it's inadequate - that's probably why I added so much to it.
@lllllannalllll You have a VERY BIG Problem, every believer has the Holy Spirit and Jesus is the one that will baptize with the Holy Spirit and you say that Baptizing with the Holy Spirit doesn't happen anymore.
@Judgement220 "You have a VERY BIG Problem" <-- Is THAT what you're left with? Not answering a single question, and then saying I HAVE A PROBLEM? GREAT! I'd say anyone who thinks the indwelling of the Holy t Spirit is the equivalent of the baptism of the Holy Spirit really needs a concordance - that way, he can LOOK UP the baptism of the Holy Spirit and see what it WAS!
@Judgement220 ""Wrong, Peter in Acts 11:16 referred to the House of Cornelius as baptism of the Holy Spirit," Oh, no, he didn't. Why don't you PROVE the Cornelius received the BAPTISMAL MEASURE of the Holy Spirit - he received a "like gift" or "similar gift", but I doubt he recalled all the words of Jesus or any new revelations. Why don't you FIND the verse that says Cornelius received Holy Spirit baptism?" <-- you forgot to answer that
@lllllannalllll" And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. " Acts 11:16
Peter calls the Falling of the Holy Ghost as as Baptism of the Holy Spirit, according to these verses. This means every believer who recieves the Holy Spirit, it is called a baptism of the Holy Spirit.
@Judgement220 "This means every believer who recieves the Holy Spirit, it is called a baptism of the Holy Spirit." Is THAT your answer to either of those questions? Peter never called the "falling of the Holy Ghost" a "baptism" of anything - if so, you would produce direct reference to it, and not something so vague. The miraculous manifestations of the Spirit in the case of Cornelius DID remind Peter of the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost for GOOD REASON.
@lllllannalllll Don't argue with me, that's what the Peter said in Acts 11:15-16. I can only go by what Peter says, you were deceived to be taught that there is a difference between indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Hint: every believer has the Holy SPirit, Jesus truly baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
You speak "Baptismal Measure" Recieving the Holy Spirit is like pregnancy, You cannot be almost pregnant or a little pregnant. You either pregnant or not.
@Judgement220 "You speak "Baptismal Measure" Recieving the Holy Spirit is like pregnancy, You cannot be almost pregnant or a little pregnant. You either pregnant or not." I speak of "baptismal measure" to mean COMPLETE OVERWHELMING, TOTAL IMMERSION. I said there was no such thing as different "measures" of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and there aren't. Again, which question are you answering? You seemed pretty concerned that yours were answered - I'm sure you're answering mine.
@lllllannalllll We disagree what baptism of the Holy Spirit means, you say gifts, i say indwelling. Now Explain the term the apostles like to use when showing a brother that has a High measure of the Gifts of the SPirit "full of Grace"
@Judgement220 "Hint: every believer has the Holy SPirit, Jesus truly baptizes with the Holy Spirit." LOLOL And your conclusion is that every believer has RECALL, REVELATION, and can CONFIRM such - every believer is completely immersed or baptized in the Spirit. Why, you couldn't go preach the gospel to the Chinese without learning their language first. Seems that ppl truly baptized in the Spirit weren't handicapped like you. Answer the questions.
@lllllannalllll Again let's lay the ground work our debate: You say baptism of the spirit is the Gifts of the spirit, I say that baptism of teh Holy Spirit is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So when I say baptism of the Holy Spirit, i'm not referring to the signs, I;m referring to the indwelling of the Holy SPirit, let's sort out this confusion of your replies.
@Judgement220 "Again let's lay the ground work our debate: You say baptism of the spirit is the Gifts of the spirit, I say that baptism of teh Holy Spirit is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit." I repeatedly said that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the COMPLETE IMMERSION in the whole Spirit - not some collection of spiritual gifts, although the apostles, when baptized in the Holy Spirit, DID have all spiritual gifts: Christ also had the Spirit without "measure."
@Judgement220 "Okay, so did Jesus receive that baptism of the Holy Spirit?" The Bible never says that - my opinion would be that Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure which would be the equivalent of total immersion which is baptism. The Bible does not call it that in Jesus' case though, especially since the Holy Spirit had not yet been given.
@Judgement220 "Jesus is the one that will baptize with the Holy Spirit." How about Jesus WAS the One who BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit." Imagine thinking the "gift of the Holy Spirit" - which is subsequent to water baptism anyway - is SYNONYMOUS with Holy Spirit baptism, and never provided a single verse to prove it. You just asserted it. Holy Spirit baptism was to REVEAL, CONFIRM, and BRING TO REMEMBRANCE, and you don't have it.
@lllllannalllll This is your problem, Jesus told his disciples that they will receive the Holy Spirit by saying they will be baptized with the Holy Spirit and now a person does not belong to Chirst if they don't have the Spirit Rom 8:9, if Jesus is the one to baptize with the Holy Spirit, why does every believer have the Holy Spirit?
@Judgement220 "Do you REALLY think you are totally immersed in the Spirit like Peter and Paul?" <-- you skipped that one. "Why don't you FIND the verse that says Cornelius received Holy Spirit baptism?" <-- you forgot to answer that . YOU still have plenty of questions to answer - not much need in advancing further questions to me, when you already have a backlog. There are plenty of others I can go back and copy and paste.
@Judgement220 (3) He would recall "all things ... whatsoever I (Jesus) have said to you (apostles)", and he would be "guide(d) ... into all truth" (revealing)". Jesus never taught his disciples, especially the apostles, ALL the truth anyway - and said He did not. It remained for the Holy Spirit of inspiration, the Paraclete, to reveal "all truth", and such truth was REVEALED and CONFIRMED - nothing lacking - in the first century via Holy Spirit baptism and inspiration.
@Judgement220 (4) So the purpose of Holy Spirit baptism was not some spiritual gift nor simply an indwelling - it was complete immersion. It was PROMISED to the apostles; its FUNCTION was (1) REMEMBRANCE, (2) REVELATION, and (3) CONFIRMATION. Having succeeded in this mission, there is no need for it today - and no one truly claims it anyway - they spew about it. It they HAD it, they wouldn't need a Bible - they could do us all a service and WRITE one - like Joe Smith or addled Ellen White.
@lllllannalllll Wrong, Peter in Acts 11:16 referred to the House of Cornelius as baptism of the Holy Spirit, they prophesied and spoke in tongues and He reiterated what Jesus said in Acts 1:5. If the Gentiles were baptized in the Holy Spirit, and called "Holy Spirit Fell" as baptism of the Holy Spirit. All believers receive the Holy Spirit.
@Judgement220 "Wrong, Peter in Acts 11:16 referred to the House of Cornelius as baptism of the Holy Spirit," Oh, no, he didn't. Why don't you PROVE the Cornelius received the BAPTISMAL MEASURE of the Holy Spirit - he received a "like gift" or "similar gift", but I doubt he recalled all the words of Jesus or any new revelations. Why don't you FIND the verse that says Cornelius received Holy Spirit baptism?
@lllllannalllll This is where you are missing the Point when the Apostles received the Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. " Acts 2:4
Notice the Phrase "as the Spirit gave them Utterance", Not all who have the Spirit will have the miraculous phenomon according to Paul in 1 cor 12 and Eph 4. The Spirit will do according to his will what each believer is measured to do.
@Judgement220 "Notice the Phrase "as the Spirit gave them Utterance", Not all who have the Spirit will have the miraculous phenomon" They WILL if they have HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM - the SPIRIT OF INSPIRATION. "Not all who have the Spirit will have the miraculous phenomon" <<--- LOLOL I would think NOT - why don't you venture a guess at how many DO? And why WOULD they? Is the word of God not confirmed?
@lllllannalllll So, you have to answer that if each believer has the Holy Spirit, and Jesus says that he will send the Comforter to the Apostles in John 14:26 and Jesus says he will baptize with the Holy Spirit. Its pretty straight forward that the indwelling of the holy Spirit is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
@Judgement220 "sorry, i meant that its i pretty straight forward that indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism of the Holy SPirit." Nope, THAT is the very LEAP you must take - then blow it off by saying it's "straight-forward". You are not baptized in the Holy Spirit - if ya were, you'd recall everything Jesus said.
@lllllannalllll Again, YOU have to take a leap, Jesus says to the Apostles that he will send the comforter. Now Every believer has the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism of the Holy SPirit.
@Judgement220 "Now Every believer has the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism of the Holy SPirit." No, it's not - only if twisted to fit your doctrine. YOU can't heal the sick, YOU can't speak foreign languages without studying them, YOU can't recall all the words of Christ, YOU can't drink deadly poisons, YOU have no new revealed truth: in fact, you pretty much have NOTHING relating to any "baptismal measure" of the Holy Spirit. THAT is the difference.
@Judgement220 "The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism of the Holy SPirit." You see, if you are allowed to pass off a screwed-up definition of the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit", you can go off in any direction - but if you DON'T pass it off, you're stymied right then and there. And every BAPTIZED believer has the Holy Spirit, but not the total immersion of the Spirit. Do you REALLY think you are totally immersed in the Spirit like Peter and Paul? It's kinda doubtful!
@lllllannalllll Every believer receives the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit LIVING in side of the Believer is more then an immersion, its an indwelling.
"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe." 1 cor 14:22
The Holy Spirit is the same Spirit to all believers, the Spirit will give certain gifts to certain believers to accomplish the will of God.
@Judgement220 "Every believer receives the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit LIVING in side of the Believer is more then an immersion, its an indwelling." That's another nice assertion - couldn't prove it to save your life. The "indwelling of the Spirit" is NOT the "baptism of the Spirit." And I can't figure out which question you are answering - if you hold true to form, NONE of them: just spewing.
@Judgement220 "Okay, if you call baptism of the Holy Spirit as the gifts of the Holy SPirit, then what does the term "full of grace" means?" It means that I try to answer your questions while you conveniently and consistenty IGNORE anything I ask. In other words, you have complete unlimited "unmerited favor" in "unconditionally electing" to answer NOTHING. Would you like them REPEATED for you?
@lllllannalllll I answered your questions, I showed you why I called baptism of the Holy Spirit the indwelling by showing you Peter's reply in Acts 11:15-16. To me there is not such thing as "bapismal measure" because I believe that the Baptism of the Holy SPirit is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Just like a woman getting pregnant. You can't be a little pregnant or very pregnant, you are either pregnant or not.
@Judgement220 I asked you if you had Holy Spirit baptism just like Peter and Paul? You never replied to that. OR do you have it, yet seem to fall short in EVERY spiritual gift? Exactly which gifts do YOU have? You speak in foreign languages without study? raise the dead? restore blindess?
@lllllannalllll Let me say this again, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE AMOUNT OF GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. I BELIEVE IT IS THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So rephrase your question.
@Judgement220 "The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So rephrase your question." You can have a TAPEWORM indwelling you - doesn't mean you have TAPEWORM BAPTISM, does it? But if a BIG TAPEWORM COVERS you - inside and out - you would.
@lllllannalllll That is not a good analogy. There is 1 Spirit and all believers share the same Spirit, therefore you are baptized with the Holy Spirit if you receive the Holy Spirit. There are different tapworms in different creatures. Not a good analogy.
@lllllannalllll Let me help you out to ask me a question, go to the Bible, tell me a verse and test my theology by the Bible, you seem not to be good at it.
@Judgement220 I don't have to go to the Bible to ask you a question - I can ask one that has a one word answer, but I'd lay 1,000,000 to 1 odds that you can't answer it with one word: How many baptisms were in effect at the time Eph 4 was written. HOW EASY CAN IT GET. Here, copy and paste the correct answer: (1) one, (2) two, (3) three, (4) four. I just bet you won't do it.
@Judgement220 And recall that your definition of the indwelling of the Spirit - which evidently does NOTHING in your case - as a "baptism" also throws you in direct contradiction to Eph 4: 4-6, which rolls off you like water off a duck's back. You'll say there is ONE BAPTISM (which is precisely what the verse says), but then you are forced to add qualifiers (which are NOT present in the verse).
@lllllannalllll You cannot use Eph 4:4-6 to eliminate either Holy Spirit Baptism or Water Baptism, If you do, you have to admitt there was NEVER a Holy Spirit baptism or a Water baptism.
@Judgement220 "You cannot use Eph 4:4-6 to eliminate either Holy Spirit Baptism or Water Baptism, If you do, you have to admitt there was NEVER a Holy Spirit baptism or a Water baptism." Why, I do not: I can state, and justifiably so, that ONE of the baptisms had ENDED by the time Ephesians was written. And indeed one of them HAD.
@lllllannalllll The Bible says there is 1 God, that means there was never another god. Again, you cannot use Eph 4:4-6 to eliminate water baptism or Spiritual Baptism, because Jesus mentions it and John the Baptists mentions it.
@Judgement220 "The Bible says there is 1 God, that means there was never another god." No, it doesn't mean that. That is TRUE - but that's not what the verse says.
@Judgement220 "What is the verse in the Bible that supports your notion that Holy Spirit baptism ceased." Eph 4: 4-6 for one, and by extension, several others.
@lllllannalllll "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
@Judgement220 "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." "Repentance unto life." Not much mentioned about faith and baptism, but I'm willing to admit that "repentance" is a synecdoche for loving God, trusting in Jesus, obeying the gospel, and water baptism. I doubt that it means simply "repentance", as defined by Thayer, in the strictest sense.
@lllllannalllll That's is not why I mentioned Acts 11:18, I mentioning it because of the context of the Peter is saying it. Peter is saying that Jesus has authority, not to just jews, but also gentiles. that is Peter's purpose of saying Acts 1:5, Jesus is speaking to them that he has accepted the Gentiles,even though they are not circumcised.
Jesus giving the Spirit is Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Just like pregnancy, you either have it or don't.
@Judgement220 Eph 4 was written approx AD 65. The only CERTAIN case of Holy Spirit baptism was circa AD 33 - 32 YEARS EARLIER. If one grants that Cornelius was baptized in the Spirit (which I will not) then THAT was in AD 40-41, still about 25 years subsequent to Pentecost. And even THAT was so SHOCKING to Peter that he hearkened all the way back to Pentecost - 7 years previous. WHY? Because he hadn't seen anything like it SINCE THEN. If he had, he coulda said "Oh, I saw that a month ago."
@lllllannalllll Wow, I think you need to read Acts 10, 11, and 15 to understand the context, because what you said here is not supported in scripture. What does Acts 11:18 say?
@Judgement220 "because Jesus mentions it and John the Baptists mentions it." Yeah, and they both had departed from this veil of tears LONG BEFORE Eph 4 was written - and the promise of Holy Spirit baptism had already been fulfilled and served its purpose. Tell us "what does Holy Spirit baptism DO FOR YOU - name ONE THING, right here, right now, on this earth - that you couldn't have gotten just as well from the Word of God?
@lllllannalllll Holy Spirit baptism gives me the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit now lives in me Eph 1:7, a promise of God that I am saved and that I am his Child Gal 3:26
@Judgement220 "Holy Spirit baptism gives me the Holy Spirit." And exactly what does this Holy Spirt baptism do for YOU .. as previously asked ... that you couldn't have just as easily ascertained from the Word of GOD. ANYTHING? Surely you can some up with something - or else it'd be useless.
@Judgement220 "Holy Spirit baptism gives me the Holy Spirit, what else am I supposed to say to satisfy your question?" Well, for starters, try answering it: "And exactly what does this Holy Spirt baptism do for YOU .. as previously asked ... that you couldn't have just as easily ascertained from the Word of GOD. ANYTHING?" Holy Spirit baptism gives you the Holy Spirit - is that the "gift of the Holy Spirit" as in Acts 2: 38?
@lllllannalllll You certainly don't know how to ask effective questions. You ask me what does Holy Spirit Baptism do for me, i tell you it gives me the Holy Spirit. The Gift of the Holy Spirit as said in Acts 2:38 is the same as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So yes that is what it does, it gives me the Holy Spirit.
@Judgement220 "You ask me what does Holy Spirit Baptism do for me, i tell you it gives me the Holy Spirit." I kinda figured THAT - is that the extent of it? I might not know how to ask effective questions, but THAT is sort-of a moot point, isn't it? You have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, just like Peter and Paul, yet you have NO evidence of it - other than you assert that you have it.
@lllllannalllll This is how you debate, you will never see a debate of a christian and an athiest talking about the nuts and bolts of the Bible, if you do see that, its a debate that's going nowhere, they are going to talk about Logic, because that is the point of dispute between them, does God exists or not.
Now my dispute with you is: What is baptism of the Holy Spirit? I established my point using John 1:33, Acts 1:5, and Acts 11:15-17, you used Eph 4:4-6.
@Judgement220 "you will never see a debate of a christian and an athiest talking about the nuts and bolts of the Bible" Already have - the Warren-Flew Debate - read it and saw it.
@lllllannalllll It is always a pointless debate when a athiests debates a christian over the bible, why is that? the debate is always going to be apriori on both sides, those are always the stupidest debates to set up. It goes nowhere.
You say Baptism is the new Circumcision. If the Jews werent Circumcised, werent they cut off from Gods People?
Also....Jesus used mud to heal eyes. He used 7 times washing in water to heal someone. Why cant he use baptism to connect you to his death,burial, and resurrection to forgive sins?
Your ways are not Gods ways. Faith without works is dead. The washing 7 times, the applying of mud to the blinds eyes are works that needed faith to make it function.
dartstuff 4 months ago
Words, words, words... follow Christ's lead and go get baptized by another Christian. Will God judge you to hell if you don't? Probably not, but know that Satan is the accuser before God. For each one of you that he can make willfully avoid baptism, he claims before God he's won.
AOGDC10 8 months ago
1Cor 1 the Apostle Paul totally shoots down baptism in regards to completing salvation, totally. Look at the theme of the NT, faith , faith, faith. Also, water is a created thing just like us, this would mean that another created thing would aid in the salvation of another created thing; which makes no sense whatsoever.Salvation has to be available to all anytime/place, some on this earth hardly have enough water to drink, and what about the many deathbed confessions ?(gotta finds some water)
awsummjc 10 months ago
Titus 3:5 cont'ed - It is not for us to argue that God didn't have sufficient warrant to connect water and Jesus blood. If God can die on a cross He can touch us with the blood in water whose purpose must have included this from the very day of creation. We either serve the kind of God who is free to make these kinds of choices and connections or not. 5/5
Sirduke62 11 months ago
Titus 3:5 - The idea that water as an element can be compared to the blood of Christ is at least in theory a point well taken. Right up to the point where God has set water apart to play a special role connected to Jesus blood. "Carnal" meaning physical, is both true of water and Jesus blood. Separating things that God has put together is counter productive. 4/5
Sirduke62 11 months ago
Acts 22:16 - In addressing this verse you introduce Romans 6 and talk about how this shows the symbolic nature of Baptism. But that doesn't address if there is an efficacious effect too. In Rev 20:6 the "first resurrection" is clearly baptism, where we are raised to walk in newness of life Rom 6. If our participation in the first resurrection is totally symbolic, what faith can we have that our participation in the second resurrection will be real? Symbolism is not disputed, it is efficacy. 3/5
Sirduke62 11 months ago
1 Peter 3:21 con'ted -If you ask, is baptism or Christs blood operative in salvation, you are creating a false choice. The bible doesn't pit these as alternatives to each other. The blood of Jesus washes away our sins but God appoints the time for this to occur. Is that time, concurrent with baptism? That reading makes good sense of this passage. 2/5
Sirduke62 11 months ago
1 Peter 3:21 - Here u eventually make the right point. Baptism is "an appeal to God, for a good conscience." This "appeal" is another way to say, "call upon the name of the Lord," 4 salvation. That vindicates the words, "Baptism now doth save us." The other points, if granted, don't change our understanding of the foregoing irreducible observations. If you ask is baptism or Christs blood operative n salvation you are creating a false choice. The bible doesn't pit these apposed to each other. 1/5
Sirduke62 11 months ago
wow you contradict yourself ! well your wrong and take scripture out of context . yes baptism is neccessary for salvation . beleive me ive heard better discussions . you are not saved sir and i bet your say a prayer so whers that at
firefighter40ish 1 year ago
wow you contradict yourself ! well your wrong and take scripture out of context . yes baptism is neccessary for salvation . beleive me ive heard better discussions .
firefighter40ish 1 year ago
Excellent job, Matt! Keep fighting for the truth of the Gospel.
ObjectiveBob 1 year ago
Mark 16:16 ~ Belief + baptism = salvation. However, why doesn't it say "non belief + non baptism = non salvation"? Illustration: He who eats his food and digests it will live, but whoever doesn't eat will die. Similarrly, baptism follows logically from belief. Furthermore, John 3:18 says that whoever does not believe is condemned already! So, there was no need for Jesus to say, "but whoever does not believe and is not baptized..."
miket1m 1 year ago
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. ~1 Corinthians 15:1-2
We are saved by the gospel and must firmly hold to it as the apostles taught it. Otherwise we believe in vain.
miket1m 1 year ago
@miket1m Yes its that by the Gospel that we are saved, here what Paul says:
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." 1 Cor 1:17
This verse is important because it shows that Baptism is not part of the Gospel. Water Baptism is a work of Righteousness which is a response to the Gospel in which all believers do.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220
"Baptism is a work" Well, it is something you do (so is repenting, believing [John 6:29] etc.), but not in the sense of a work by which you obligate God to save you (as spoken in Romans 4:4).
Do we believe into Christ? No! In fact, the "into" Christ terminology is only used in connection with baptism (Romans 6:3, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:26) Non Christians are outside of Christ, Christians are in Christ. To get into a right relationship with God, you must be baptized.
miket1m 1 year ago
@miket1m You said that Believing, Repenting is YOUR WORK. Did you change your heart or did the Gospel change your heart. Did you change your mind, or did God changed your mind?
"...This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29
To believe is THE WORK OF GOD, NOT YOUR WORK!
Judgement220 1 year ago
@miket1m We do not Believe unto Christ, The Gospel makes us Believe and the Gospel Saves.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor 12:13
This is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Not water baptism. This happens when you believed the Gospel. Acts 15:7-11.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220
The new life begins in baptism (Romans 6:4). To claim that the new life begins before baptism (that we are born again first) is to say that the new creation is put to death! How can you be "born again" then die in baptism, and come up out of the water, "born again" again?
miket1m 1 year ago
@miket1m To be born of water is your natural fleshly birth, not water baptism as Jesus explains in John 3:6. Only God control your natural birth just like your spiritual birth, because many women cannot conceive and miscarry. Spiritaul birth is a miracle just like natural birth(Water). That's what it means to be born again.
To understand Romans 6, Paul uses water baptism as symbolism(Rom 6:6-10) to live a new life unto God. The death of your old life and life anew to God.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 We are not talking about your natural birth here. We are talking about baptism Acts 2:38.
The Bible never calls baptism symbolic. Show me where it calls baptism symbolic. 1 Peter 3:21 "This water that symbolizes baptism.." not vice versa.
Show me a record in the Bible of anyone just saying a prayer and being saved. Its not in there.
The word Baptism comes from the Greek "Baptizo" which means immersed in water (H2O)
miket1m 1 year ago
@miket1m Saying a prayer cannot save you, water baptism cannot save you. No body gestures or lip service can save you. Believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior, saves.Plenty scripture on that, John 3:16 for starters.
Baptize or Baptiszo means to immerse:
"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Acts 1:5
Jesus clearly distinguished there is water baptism and Spiritual baptism, which is shown on the day of Pentecost, no water involved.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@miket1m When you hear the Gospel and Believe that Jesus is Your Lord and Christ as Peter said in Acts 2:36, you are righteous before you open your mouth and water baptize. It is with the Heart you believe in the Lord Jesus and Justified as Peter explains in Acts 15:7-11.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@miket1m Baptism is called symbolic in 1 Peter 3:21 saying that water is not a sin cleansing agent, but a Good Conscience to God through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ Saves. When you read "Good Concience" that translates into faith, which is an intangible. Romans 6:6-10 directly shows that Baptism is symbolism of the Death and resurrection of Chrst, Gal 3:27 says baptism is putting on clothing(Symbolism), Col 2:12 again calls baptism a "circumcision", which is symbolism.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "This is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Not water baptism." How many baptisms do you think are in force today? Eph 4: 4-6 says there is ONE, but you have mentioned TWO.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll There is only 1 baptism that baptizes you into the body of Christ, it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it happens when you believe what you heard of the Gospel.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor 12:13
For by ONE SPIRIT, not water, But Spirit, we are baptized into the body of Christ.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "There is only 1 baptism that baptizes you into the body of Christ, it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit" Blah, you do not have any Holy Spirit baptism - you are not completely and entirely overwhelmed in the Holy Spirit. Nor do I. The ONLY people who ever had that were the apostles - they didn't need a Bible: they wrote it. People today do not need to "take no care as to what they will say" nor do they recall "all things said by Jesus." Those baptized in the Spirit DID.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Didn't you read the rest of 1 Corinthians 12, that not all speak in tongues and have all the gifts of the Spirit, only certain believers have certain gifts of the spirit, 1 cor 12:1-10. that means only the Apostles attain all the gifts of the Spirit, but other then them all other believers have only certain gifts or ministry from the Spirit as he allows.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "There is only 1 baptism that baptizes you into the body of Christ." Bear in mind that I didn't ASK specifically about any baptism that baptizes one into the body of Christ, nor did Eph 4: 4-6 place such stipulations on it. Eph 4: 4-6 simply says there is ONE baptism, period - and I believe that: there is ONE, and it is water baptism. I asked YOU how many there are, today.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll, If you don't have the Holy SPirit, you don't belong to Christ, Rom 8:9, therefore only 1 baptism gives you the Holy Spirit, hear Peter describing the conversion of Conelius:
"Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost." Acts 11:16
Then Paul said in 1 Cor 12:13, that by ONE SPIRIT, WE ARE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY.
Not just the Apostles, But ALL BELIEVERS in CHRIST!
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "If you don't have the Holy SPirit, you don't belong to Christ" HAVING the Holy Spirit, which is promised to all who have obeyed the gospel, is QUITE DIFFERENCE from being BAPTIZED - totally immersed the Spirit. TELL US: TO WHOM was the baptism of the Holy Spirit promised? Not some GIFT of the Spirit, not an indwelling promised to all Christians, but a total, complete immersion? Did it occur to you that there are NO DEGREES in IMMERSION???
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "There is only 1 baptism that baptizes you into the body of Christ." Bear in mind that I didn't ASK specifically about any baptism that baptizes one into the body of Christ, nor did Eph 4: 4-6 place such stipulations on it. Eph 4: 4-6 simply says there is ONE baptism, period - and I believe that: there is ONE, and it is water baptism. I asked YOU how many there are, today. <-- don't forget that question - I'd like to see your answer
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 Rom 8: 9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Oops, I fail to see ONE WORD there about being totally immersed in the Holy Spirit - there aren't any DEGREES in such an immersion, so evidently you claim Holy Spirit baptism just like Peter and Paul. If not, then you have something short of complete, total, every-inch-of-you IMMERSION in the Holy Spirit.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Clearly Water baptism doesn't give you the holy Spirit, but through faith, you are receive Holy Spirit Baptism.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" 1 Cor 12:13
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" Eph 1:13
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "Clearly Water baptism doesn't give you the holy Spirit, but through faith, you are receive Holy Spirit Baptism." Seems that you teach two baptisms - Holy Spirit baptism and water baptism - yet by the time Ephesians was written Paul was telling the Ephesians that there is ONE baptism. It makes no difference about "there is one baptism that gets you into the body.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
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@lllllannalllll "Eph 4: 4-6 simply says there is ONE baptism, period - and I believe that: there is ONE, and it is water baptism. I asked YOU how many there are, today. <-- don't forget that question - I'd like to see your answer" You forgot that: is the answer one, two, three, or how many?
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Eph 4:4-6
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor 12:13
We are baptized into ONE body by One Spirit. there is your answer.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "We are baptized into ONE body by One Spirit. there is your answer." I never asked your OPINION on I Cor 12: 13, as I recall: I asked how MANY baptisms YOU teach are in effect today. Since I you were answering that question, then quoted the verse that says there is ONE baptism, followed by a verse that YOU say is Holy Spirit baptism, then logically you teach ONE BAPTISM (which is correct) but you teach that WATER BAPTISM has ceased. So tell us when it ceased.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 (Of course, the truth is that you believe in TWO baptisms, but in an attempt to avoid the force of Eph 4, you QUALIFY the baptism by answering, "Well, we are baptized INTO ONE BODY by ONE SPIRIT". That's nothing but a dodge, but we'll soon find out. Since you can't give a NUMBER of baptisms that YOU teach (Paul didn't have that problem in Eph 4), just elaborate on WHEN WATER BAPTISM CEASED. That'll illuminate things for us.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll There is only 1 baptism that is significant in salvation, the seal of promise of the Holy Spirit, which is done by God himself. Why do you not call the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a baptism of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit lives in a believer, that is baptism it the truest form.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "If the Holy Spirit lives in a believer, that is baptism it the truest form." No, it's not - not at ALL. Who gave you THAT definition? Immersion - complete overwhelming - was promised to specific people, for a specific purpose, at a specific time. Holy Spirit baptism is just that: Holy Spirit immersion - there are no DEGREES of immersion. You're either compt.letely Holy Spirit baptized - or not at all. Who said Holy Spirit baptism was a seal of promise - I dont recall that.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll I invite you to read the rest of 1 cor 12, which clearly teaches that no believer has all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but we are all baptized into 1 body by 1 Spirit. this means that every believer, in which every believer has the Holy Spirit, were baptized in the Holy Spirit, whether or NOT they displayed the miraculous SIGNS like prophesy and speaking in tongues.
1 Cor 12, proves your definition of Spirit Baptism is wrong, it does not mean you display signs of Spirit.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "but we are all baptized into 1 body by 1 Spirit. this means that every believer, in which every believer has the Holy Spirit, were baptized in the Holy Spirit" I'd like to see you tell us who the ADMINISTRATOR of this current Holy Spirit baptism is and what the ELEMENT of Holy Spirit baptism is. According to you, I suppose the Holy Spirit is the BAPTIZER and the ELEMENT.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll I see you don't understand 1 Cor 12:13
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
This verse says "By One Spirit" we are all baptized. this means that the specified element is the Spirit.
Now who is the Administrator of this Spirit Baptism, According to John 1:33, it is Jesus Christ. Acts 1:5,11:16. Only Jesus has this authority.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "This verse says "By One Spirit" we are all baptized. this means that the specified element is the Spirit." That's surprising! If I said I was baptized by one preacher - that means the PREACHER BAPTIZED ME, does it not? So you think the ELEMENT of my water baptism is the preacher who baptized me?
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll the reason I said "By One Spirit" is the element is because of the end of the verse "Made to drink into ONE spirit" Specifying that Spirit is the element. John the Baptists witnessed and said that Jesus is the administrator of Holy SPirit baptism.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 Yes, Jesus is the administrator of Holy Spirit baptism, so Holy Spirit baptism is not done "By one Spirit" if the Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll
John the Baptists says:
"And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." John 1:33
Jesus says:
"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Acts 1:5
I can only mention what scripture teaches.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 ""For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Acts 1:5" TO WHOM was this promise GIVEN. You can only mention what scripture teaches, so you might as well mention to whom the promise was made.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Then Why did Peter reiterate what Jesus said in Acts 1:5 to the Jerusalem council in Acts 11:16, in Acts 1:5, Jesus was talking to his disciples, but notices it was 120 brethren that showed the miraculous signs of the Spirit in Acts 2. The whole point of bringing up 1 Cor 12:13, is because you have this notion like many others who define the baptism of the Holy Ghost as only showing the miraculous signs of the Spirit like Acts 2. In this chapter Paul defies that definition.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "Jesus was talking to his disciples, but notices it was 120" Nope, it was only the apostles. In the promise given by Jesus in Acts 1: 5 ("but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost"), the "ye" answers to "ye", "they", "them", and "them" and "whom" in Acts 1: 4, "them" in Acts 1: 3, and whole group answers to "apostles" in Acts 1: 3. Upon fulfillment, beginning in Acts 2: 2-3, the same situation exists: "them", "they", back to "apostles" in v. 26 in chapter 1.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Now you can't use by your preacher you are baptized in this verse, because the subject of the verse is "ONE Spirit", which is teh Same spirit you drink. You can drink your preacher.
When you water baptize, you can say by Water you are baptize and you drink water.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 Actually, it is good that the ASV, which I prefer anyway, says "in one Spirit" instead of "by one Spirit". That is probably more accurate. The NIV gives "in" or "with" as acceptable alternate translations. To me, the meaning of the passage has always been obscure - every commentator that writes on it assigns different shades of meaning to it, and I'd be suspicious of one who claims to know THE meaning - when Calvin, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, McGarvey, et al ALL DIFFERED.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "you can say by Water you are baptize and you drink water." I don't think the Bible EVER says we are "baptized by water" - and I have never heard it or said it. I think typically people who are baptized are baptized by another person IN water.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll The key word of this verse is the Greek word "EN" which has many meanings: "in, on, at, by, with" and in English you can say you were baptized by water. In English you can say you were hit by a car when its really the driver of the car that hit you. Its perfectly legal to say that you are baptized "by" water.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "In English you can say you were hit by a car when its really the driver of the car that hit you." The driver may be OPERATING the car by the car is what HIT you. The example I've heard is "I was SHOT by John Smith". John Smith was in CONTROL of the whole thing, but technically it was the GUN that shot you. John Smith was the administrator, and the gun was element or device used. There are SEVERAL "keys" in that verse - some think the "drink" refers to "wine" in the Supper.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll The point of 1 Cor 12:13 is that the "One Spirit" is used as a baptizing element and drinking element. The wine represents the blood of Christ that was shed for the remission of SIns Matt 26:28, but this drink of 1 clearly shows in indwelling of the Spirit which resides in the body of believers.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 Another "point" concerning 1 Cor 12: 13 is that Bloomfield, Calvin, Doddridge, Sadler, Beet, Matthew Henry, B. .W.Johnson, A. T. Robertson, Wesley, McGarvey, and many, MANY others all say that the "baptism" or 1 Cor 12: 13 is "water baptism". Others - FEWER - say that it is Holy Spirit baptism. Clarke said, "On this verse there is a great profusion of various readings." AMEN to that!
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll WOW, way to twists on the commentaries. Most commentaries shows how Paul uses Holy Spirit baptism that is parallel to Water baptism and Paul uses Drink in to 1 spirit as to communion or the Lord's supper. That is very clear that Paul uses 2 rites or on this same verse to show that it is the Holy Spirit not the rites that matters. Then tell me, do you also think that "Drink into 1 Spirit" means that its wine that gives you the Spirit like the Catholics?
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 ""Drink into 1 Spirit" means that its wine that gives you the Spirit like the Catholics?" Nope, I don't believe in "wine regeneration" any more than I believe in "baptismal regeneration." "WOW, way to twists on the commentaries." LOLOL well, you be sure an tell me WHICH of those commentators you think I twisted, and I'll be sure to provide the exact quote with reference to I Cor 12: 13.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 Here is Beet for example, from his "Christian Baptism", pp. 18-19: "This refers probably to baptism by water. For we have here no suggestion of any other than the ordinary meaning of the word 'baptize.' " That's sorta hard to twist! If you really think one is TWISTED, then name it.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll You know, I'm not here to debate about commentaries, I'm here to debate about scripture.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "You know, I'm not here to debate about commentaries, I'm here to debate about scripture." Nor am I, but on an obscure scripture, I suppose what other people, those of high scholarship, think might be considered, and NOT A ONE of the them agree. It's about like John 3: 8: I've never HEARD a person give an interpretation of the verse that didn't PERFECTLY AGREE with what the person ALREADY BELIEVED. Both will be "spun" to mesh with preconceived ideology.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll High Scholarship is very important should be used to understand the Greek, because we do not understand the culture and the language use of Koine Greek. But also we have to understand that they are not infallible either and using context of the Bible we can support our interpretation of verses.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "But also we have to understand that they are not infallible either" I'm sure they are not, and they all believe or believed the same thing (unless a pope wrote a commentary, maybe) ... and when they went as far as they could go with grammar, culture, etc and gave THEIR interpretations, there are certain verses upon which there are about as many interpretations as there are commentators.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Using Eph 4:6 to show Paul is inciting there is no such thing as Spiritual Baptism, is pure folly on your part.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "Using Eph 4:6 to show Paul is inciting there is no such thing as Spiritual Baptism, is pure folly on your part." I'll use it to show that IF immersion - complete submersion - in the Holy Spirit is in effect today the, by default, water baptism ceased at some point prior to Eph 4. IF water baptism - complete submersion in water - in still in effect, then Holy Spirit baptism ceased. You can't have ONE baptism - one immersion - in effect, then run around talking about TWO.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
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@lllllannalllll Define Holy Spirit Baptism.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll I went to read A.T. Robertson, he says that its by the Spirit all believers water baptize, basically saying you have to have the Holy Spirit before you baptize. I still think that is a streatch and still think its Holy Spirit Baptism.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "I went to read A.T. Robertson, he says that its by the Spirit all believers water baptize, basically saying you have to have the Holy Spirit before you baptize." Yep, and I dont AGREE with all he says, but I DID NOT misrepresent him: to him, the "baptism" of I Cor 12: 13 is WATER BAPTISM.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 I do know that I reject any spin on the verse which puts it at odds with Eph 4: 4-6: Eph 4: 4-6 is PLAIN and not disputed (it might be ignored by some, but it's not disputed). Why don't you fill in the blank - "one Lord, one faith, ___ baptism ... " and tell us exactly how many baptisms there are today.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll There is 1 Baptism that gets you into the body of Christ and its Holy Spirit Baptism according 1 Cor 12:13, don't try to twists commentaries saying it means water baptism, understand that this verse as the commentaries say, it represents 2 rites, Baptism and the Lord Supper-both doesn't save, only the indwelling or baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "There is 1 Baptism that gets you into the body of Christ and its Holy Spirit Baptism" Oh, yeah, we know what you ASSERT, and I'll keep that in mind if I ever decide to ask "How many baptisms get you into the body of Christ?" For NOW, however, I'll simply ask for the 3rd time, "How many b
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll (cont'd) "How many baptisms are there, PERIOD?" Can ya answer that? Here, I'll make it easy: just fill in the blank - "There are ____ baptisms in force or practice today." Can you fill in that blank with a 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 or something? Or do you feel a little more comfortable RE-wording it?
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Eph 4:6 is talking about 1 baptism, Holy Spirit Baptism, there is only 1 baptism that can be done by Man ordained by God, Water Baptism.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "Eph 4:6 is talking about 1 baptism, Holy Spirit Baptism, there is only 1 baptism that can be done by Man ordained by God, Water Baptism." Eph 4 simply says there is ONE baptism, as you well know - blah. 1 + 1 = 2, and regardless of how many little addendums/distractions attach to it, you believe in 2 baptisms, no matter how you view the relative importance of the two. You have TWO in operation now.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll There is only 1 Baptism that matters Holy Spirit Baptism 1 Cor 12:13, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "There is only 1 Baptism that matters Holy Spirit Baptism 1 Cor 12:13, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16." Well, I'm glad you have such a high regard for the Final Commission of Matt 28, but apparently you have ONE that matters, and another that doesn't matter much (if at all), and 1 + 1 = 2. Of course, you knew all that to begin with - just one of the lil disadvantages of your doctrine.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll I also have a high regard for water baptism, but to claim that one is not saved without it, doesn't hold up in scripture. What is perfectly witnessed in the rest of scripture is that the focus is on Faith on Jesus as the right motive to water baptize and other works of righteousness.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Well, I have to disagree with you, the Only Baptism that counts, is a baptism no one can see the baptism done by God, Holy Spirit Baptism in Eph 4:6.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "Well, I have to disagree with you, the Only Baptism that counts, is a baptism no one can see the baptism done by God, Holy Spirit Baptism" You mean to tell me that you have a "high regard" for water baptism, but a much HIGHER regard for Holy Spirit baptism and that both are in occurrence today - so when counting up "baptisms", you've decided that only counting the more important one to you is the way to go? That's about as clear as mud - and the Bible doesn't say that.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll The point is that Eph 4 is talking about the Holy Spirit and the measure of Grace given by him to different people.
Now to support your claim that baptism is water baptism in Eph 4:6, the most sensible case for it is that what happened in 1 Cor 1:13-17, when people were divided to whom they were water baptized to. Many cliques formed and baptism was divided, Paul may be reaffirming his case that there is only 1 baptism, a baptism that is for the One Lord, One Father, One Spirit
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "The point is that Eph 4 is talking about the Holy Spirit" Very little, actually - Eph 4 deals with a number of subjects, and Holy Spirit baptism isn't even mentioned, is it? "The most sensible case for it is that what happened in 1 Cor 1:13-17". Paul was referring to a past event - one that may have happened years and years before - and yes, Paul is affirming indirectly that there is ONE baptism - baptism in water - in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Again, Define Holy Spirit baptism, since you said this baptism no longer exists.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "Define Holy Spirit baptism" Holy Spirit baptism is the complete immersion - the overwhelming - in the Holy Spirit. The administrator is Christ; the element is the Holy Spirit; there are no "measures" of a baptism: there are not different DEGREES of Holy Spirit baptism. It was promised specifically to the apostles - and every promise of the baptism in the Spirit points to Pentecost.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll be more specific, how do you know if someone completely immersed or "overwhelming" in the Holy Spirit?
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 (1) "how do you know if someone completely immersed or "overwhelming" in the Holy Spirit?" You would know, not because the person asserted it - for some who claim this are among the most ignorant "Pentecostalish" parasites disgracing the religious world. You'd know when you see someone in possession of the Spirit without measure - there were no "degrees" of Holy Spirit baptism: nobody was "partially baptized" in the Holy Spirit.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 A description of the person? The person would be filled, clothed, endued with power and have the Spirit without measure. He would be able to converse or speak in other languages, having never studied such a language. He would be able to take up serpents or drink poison and be harmed by neither. He would be able to heal the sick. In short, he would be able to TEACH the word to whomever and CONFIRM it once and for all. It STANDS confirmed -the Bible does not require reconfirmation.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
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@lllllannalllll You are speaking of what Jesus says of people who BELIEVE not baptize in the holy SPirit,
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. "
So this is a very inadaquate definition of baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "So this is a very inadaquate definition of baptism of the Holy Spirit." Yes, it's inadequate - that's probably why I added so much to it.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll You have a VERY BIG Problem, every believer has the Holy Spirit and Jesus is the one that will baptize with the Holy Spirit and you say that Baptizing with the Holy Spirit doesn't happen anymore.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "You have a VERY BIG Problem" <-- Is THAT what you're left with? Not answering a single question, and then saying I HAVE A PROBLEM? GREAT! I'd say anyone who thinks the indwelling of the Holy t Spirit is the equivalent of the baptism of the Holy Spirit really needs a concordance - that way, he can LOOK UP the baptism of the Holy Spirit and see what it WAS!
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 ""Wrong, Peter in Acts 11:16 referred to the House of Cornelius as baptism of the Holy Spirit," Oh, no, he didn't. Why don't you PROVE the Cornelius received the BAPTISMAL MEASURE of the Holy Spirit - he received a "like gift" or "similar gift", but I doubt he recalled all the words of Jesus or any new revelations. Why don't you FIND the verse that says Cornelius received Holy Spirit baptism?" <-- you forgot to answer that
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll" And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. " Acts 11:16
Peter calls the Falling of the Holy Ghost as as Baptism of the Holy Spirit, according to these verses. This means every believer who recieves the Holy Spirit, it is called a baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "This means every believer who recieves the Holy Spirit, it is called a baptism of the Holy Spirit." Is THAT your answer to either of those questions? Peter never called the "falling of the Holy Ghost" a "baptism" of anything - if so, you would produce direct reference to it, and not something so vague. The miraculous manifestations of the Spirit in the case of Cornelius DID remind Peter of the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost for GOOD REASON.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Don't argue with me, that's what the Peter said in Acts 11:15-16. I can only go by what Peter says, you were deceived to be taught that there is a difference between indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Hint: every believer has the Holy SPirit, Jesus truly baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
You speak "Baptismal Measure" Recieving the Holy Spirit is like pregnancy, You cannot be almost pregnant or a little pregnant. You either pregnant or not.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "You speak "Baptismal Measure" Recieving the Holy Spirit is like pregnancy, You cannot be almost pregnant or a little pregnant. You either pregnant or not." I speak of "baptismal measure" to mean COMPLETE OVERWHELMING, TOTAL IMMERSION. I said there was no such thing as different "measures" of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and there aren't. Again, which question are you answering? You seemed pretty concerned that yours were answered - I'm sure you're answering mine.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll We disagree what baptism of the Holy Spirit means, you say gifts, i say indwelling. Now Explain the term the apostles like to use when showing a brother that has a High measure of the Gifts of the SPirit "full of Grace"
Judgement220 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Where in the Bible you get the term "baptismal measure"? I'm just wondering.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "Hint: every believer has the Holy SPirit, Jesus truly baptizes with the Holy Spirit." LOLOL And your conclusion is that every believer has RECALL, REVELATION, and can CONFIRM such - every believer is completely immersed or baptized in the Spirit. Why, you couldn't go preach the gospel to the Chinese without learning their language first. Seems that ppl truly baptized in the Spirit weren't handicapped like you. Answer the questions.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Again let's lay the ground work our debate: You say baptism of the spirit is the Gifts of the spirit, I say that baptism of teh Holy Spirit is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So when I say baptism of the Holy Spirit, i'm not referring to the signs, I;m referring to the indwelling of the Holy SPirit, let's sort out this confusion of your replies.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "Again let's lay the ground work our debate: You say baptism of the spirit is the Gifts of the spirit, I say that baptism of teh Holy Spirit is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit." I repeatedly said that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the COMPLETE IMMERSION in the whole Spirit - not some collection of spiritual gifts, although the apostles, when baptized in the Holy Spirit, DID have all spiritual gifts: Christ also had the Spirit without "measure."
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Okay, so did Jesus receive that baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "Okay, so did Jesus receive that baptism of the Holy Spirit?" The Bible never says that - my opinion would be that Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure which would be the equivalent of total immersion which is baptism. The Bible does not call it that in Jesus' case though, especially since the Holy Spirit had not yet been given.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "Jesus is the one that will baptize with the Holy Spirit." How about Jesus WAS the One who BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit." Imagine thinking the "gift of the Holy Spirit" - which is subsequent to water baptism anyway - is SYNONYMOUS with Holy Spirit baptism, and never provided a single verse to prove it. You just asserted it. Holy Spirit baptism was to REVEAL, CONFIRM, and BRING TO REMEMBRANCE, and you don't have it.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll This is your problem, Jesus told his disciples that they will receive the Holy Spirit by saying they will be baptized with the Holy Spirit and now a person does not belong to Chirst if they don't have the Spirit Rom 8:9, if Jesus is the one to baptize with the Holy Spirit, why does every believer have the Holy Spirit?
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "Do you REALLY think you are totally immersed in the Spirit like Peter and Paul?" <-- you skipped that one. "Why don't you FIND the verse that says Cornelius received Holy Spirit baptism?" <-- you forgot to answer that . YOU still have plenty of questions to answer - not much need in advancing further questions to me, when you already have a backlog. There are plenty of others I can go back and copy and paste.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 (3) He would recall "all things ... whatsoever I (Jesus) have said to you (apostles)", and he would be "guide(d) ... into all truth" (revealing)". Jesus never taught his disciples, especially the apostles, ALL the truth anyway - and said He did not. It remained for the Holy Spirit of inspiration, the Paraclete, to reveal "all truth", and such truth was REVEALED and CONFIRMED - nothing lacking - in the first century via Holy Spirit baptism and inspiration.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 (4) So the purpose of Holy Spirit baptism was not some spiritual gift nor simply an indwelling - it was complete immersion. It was PROMISED to the apostles; its FUNCTION was (1) REMEMBRANCE, (2) REVELATION, and (3) CONFIRMATION. Having succeeded in this mission, there is no need for it today - and no one truly claims it anyway - they spew about it. It they HAD it, they wouldn't need a Bible - they could do us all a service and WRITE one - like Joe Smith or addled Ellen White.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Wrong, Peter in Acts 11:16 referred to the House of Cornelius as baptism of the Holy Spirit, they prophesied and spoke in tongues and He reiterated what Jesus said in Acts 1:5. If the Gentiles were baptized in the Holy Spirit, and called "Holy Spirit Fell" as baptism of the Holy Spirit. All believers receive the Holy Spirit.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "Wrong, Peter in Acts 11:16 referred to the House of Cornelius as baptism of the Holy Spirit," Oh, no, he didn't. Why don't you PROVE the Cornelius received the BAPTISMAL MEASURE of the Holy Spirit - he received a "like gift" or "similar gift", but I doubt he recalled all the words of Jesus or any new revelations. Why don't you FIND the verse that says Cornelius received Holy Spirit baptism?
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll This is where you are missing the Point when the Apostles received the Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. " Acts 2:4
Notice the Phrase "as the Spirit gave them Utterance", Not all who have the Spirit will have the miraculous phenomon according to Paul in 1 cor 12 and Eph 4. The Spirit will do according to his will what each believer is measured to do.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "Notice the Phrase "as the Spirit gave them Utterance", Not all who have the Spirit will have the miraculous phenomon" They WILL if they have HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM - the SPIRIT OF INSPIRATION. "Not all who have the Spirit will have the miraculous phenomon" <<--- LOLOL I would think NOT - why don't you venture a guess at how many DO? And why WOULD they? Is the word of God not confirmed?
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll So, you have to answer that if each believer has the Holy Spirit, and Jesus says that he will send the Comforter to the Apostles in John 14:26 and Jesus says he will baptize with the Holy Spirit. Its pretty straight forward that the indwelling of the holy Spirit is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 sorry, i meant that its i pretty straight forward that indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism of the Holy SPirit.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "sorry, i meant that its i pretty straight forward that indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism of the Holy SPirit." Nope, THAT is the very LEAP you must take - then blow it off by saying it's "straight-forward". You are not baptized in the Holy Spirit - if ya were, you'd recall everything Jesus said.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Again, YOU have to take a leap, Jesus says to the Apostles that he will send the comforter. Now Every believer has the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism of the Holy SPirit.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "Now Every believer has the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism of the Holy SPirit." No, it's not - only if twisted to fit your doctrine. YOU can't heal the sick, YOU can't speak foreign languages without studying them, YOU can't recall all the words of Christ, YOU can't drink deadly poisons, YOU have no new revealed truth: in fact, you pretty much have NOTHING relating to any "baptismal measure" of the Holy Spirit. THAT is the difference.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism of the Holy SPirit." You see, if you are allowed to pass off a screwed-up definition of the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit", you can go off in any direction - but if you DON'T pass it off, you're stymied right then and there. And every BAPTIZED believer has the Holy Spirit, but not the total immersion of the Spirit. Do you REALLY think you are totally immersed in the Spirit like Peter and Paul? It's kinda doubtful!
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "Do you REALLY think you are totally immersed in the Spirit like Peter and Paul?" <-- you skipped that one
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Every believer receives the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit LIVING in side of the Believer is more then an immersion, its an indwelling.
"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe." 1 cor 14:22
The Holy Spirit is the same Spirit to all believers, the Spirit will give certain gifts to certain believers to accomplish the will of God.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "Every believer receives the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit LIVING in side of the Believer is more then an immersion, its an indwelling." That's another nice assertion - couldn't prove it to save your life. The "indwelling of the Spirit" is NOT the "baptism of the Spirit." And I can't figure out which question you are answering - if you hold true to form, NONE of them: just spewing.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Okay, if you call baptism of the Holy Spirit as the gifts of the Holy SPirit, then what does the term "full of grace" means?
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "Okay, if you call baptism of the Holy Spirit as the gifts of the Holy SPirit, then what does the term "full of grace" means?" It means that I try to answer your questions while you conveniently and consistenty IGNORE anything I ask. In other words, you have complete unlimited "unmerited favor" in "unconditionally electing" to answer NOTHING. Would you like them REPEATED for you?
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll I answered your questions, I showed you why I called baptism of the Holy Spirit the indwelling by showing you Peter's reply in Acts 11:15-16. To me there is not such thing as "bapismal measure" because I believe that the Baptism of the Holy SPirit is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Just like a woman getting pregnant. You can't be a little pregnant or very pregnant, you are either pregnant or not.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 I asked you if you had Holy Spirit baptism just like Peter and Paul? You never replied to that. OR do you have it, yet seem to fall short in EVERY spiritual gift? Exactly which gifts do YOU have? You speak in foreign languages without study? raise the dead? restore blindess?
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Let me say this again, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE AMOUNT OF GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. I BELIEVE IT IS THE INDWELLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So rephrase your question.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So rephrase your question." You can have a TAPEWORM indwelling you - doesn't mean you have TAPEWORM BAPTISM, does it? But if a BIG TAPEWORM COVERS you - inside and out - you would.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll That is not a good analogy. There is 1 Spirit and all believers share the same Spirit, therefore you are baptized with the Holy Spirit if you receive the Holy Spirit. There are different tapworms in different creatures. Not a good analogy.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "That is not a good analogy." Admittedly not a great analogy, but it shows that being "indwelt" does not necessarily mean "immersed."
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Let me help you out to ask me a question, go to the Bible, tell me a verse and test my theology by the Bible, you seem not to be good at it.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 I don't have to go to the Bible to ask you a question - I can ask one that has a one word answer, but I'd lay 1,000,000 to 1 odds that you can't answer it with one word: How many baptisms were in effect at the time Eph 4 was written. HOW EASY CAN IT GET. Here, copy and paste the correct answer: (1) one, (2) two, (3) three, (4) four. I just bet you won't do it.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 And recall that your definition of the indwelling of the Spirit - which evidently does NOTHING in your case - as a "baptism" also throws you in direct contradiction to Eph 4: 4-6, which rolls off you like water off a duck's back. You'll say there is ONE BAPTISM (which is precisely what the verse says), but then you are forced to add qualifiers (which are NOT present in the verse).
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll You cannot use Eph 4:4-6 to eliminate either Holy Spirit Baptism or Water Baptism, If you do, you have to admitt there was NEVER a Holy Spirit baptism or a Water baptism.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "You cannot use Eph 4:4-6 to eliminate either Holy Spirit Baptism or Water Baptism, If you do, you have to admitt there was NEVER a Holy Spirit baptism or a Water baptism." Why, I do not: I can state, and justifiably so, that ONE of the baptisms had ENDED by the time Ephesians was written. And indeed one of them HAD.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll The Bible says there is 1 God, that means there was never another god. Again, you cannot use Eph 4:4-6 to eliminate water baptism or Spiritual Baptism, because Jesus mentions it and John the Baptists mentions it.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "The Bible says there is 1 God, that means there was never another god." No, it doesn't mean that. That is TRUE - but that's not what the verse says.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll What is the verse in the Bible that supports your notion that Holy Spirit baptism ceased.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "What is the verse in the Bible that supports your notion that Holy Spirit baptism ceased." Eph 4: 4-6 for one, and by extension, several others.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Notice verse 6 after he says 1 baptism.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 Not ignoring posts - on phone long-distance with a friend (not a religious discussion LOL)
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." "Repentance unto life." Not much mentioned about faith and baptism, but I'm willing to admit that "repentance" is a synecdoche for loving God, trusting in Jesus, obeying the gospel, and water baptism. I doubt that it means simply "repentance", as defined by Thayer, in the strictest sense.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll That's is not why I mentioned Acts 11:18, I mentioning it because of the context of the Peter is saying it. Peter is saying that Jesus has authority, not to just jews, but also gentiles. that is Peter's purpose of saying Acts 1:5, Jesus is speaking to them that he has accepted the Gentiles,even though they are not circumcised.
Jesus giving the Spirit is Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Just like pregnancy, you either have it or don't.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 Eph 4 was written approx AD 65. The only CERTAIN case of Holy Spirit baptism was circa AD 33 - 32 YEARS EARLIER. If one grants that Cornelius was baptized in the Spirit (which I will not) then THAT was in AD 40-41, still about 25 years subsequent to Pentecost. And even THAT was so SHOCKING to Peter that he hearkened all the way back to Pentecost - 7 years previous. WHY? Because he hadn't seen anything like it SINCE THEN. If he had, he coulda said "Oh, I saw that a month ago."
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Wow, I think you need to read Acts 10, 11, and 15 to understand the context, because what you said here is not supported in scripture. What does Acts 11:18 say?
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "because Jesus mentions it and John the Baptists mentions it." Yeah, and they both had departed from this veil of tears LONG BEFORE Eph 4 was written - and the promise of Holy Spirit baptism had already been fulfilled and served its purpose. Tell us "what does Holy Spirit baptism DO FOR YOU - name ONE THING, right here, right now, on this earth - that you couldn't have gotten just as well from the Word of God?
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Holy Spirit baptism gives me the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit now lives in me Eph 1:7, a promise of God that I am saved and that I am his Child Gal 3:26
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "Holy Spirit baptism gives me the Holy Spirit." And exactly what does this Holy Spirt baptism do for YOU .. as previously asked ... that you couldn't have just as easily ascertained from the Word of GOD. ANYTHING? Surely you can some up with something - or else it'd be useless.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll Holy Spirit baptism gives me the Holy Spirit, what else am I supposed to say to satisfy your question?
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "Holy Spirit baptism gives me the Holy Spirit, what else am I supposed to say to satisfy your question?" Well, for starters, try answering it: "And exactly what does this Holy Spirt baptism do for YOU .. as previously asked ... that you couldn't have just as easily ascertained from the Word of GOD. ANYTHING?" Holy Spirit baptism gives you the Holy Spirit - is that the "gift of the Holy Spirit" as in Acts 2: 38?
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll You certainly don't know how to ask effective questions. You ask me what does Holy Spirit Baptism do for me, i tell you it gives me the Holy Spirit. The Gift of the Holy Spirit as said in Acts 2:38 is the same as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So yes that is what it does, it gives me the Holy Spirit.
Judgement220 1 year ago
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@Judgement220 "You ask me what does Holy Spirit Baptism do for me, i tell you it gives me the Holy Spirit." I kinda figured THAT - is that the extent of it? I might not know how to ask effective questions, but THAT is sort-of a moot point, isn't it? You have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, just like Peter and Paul, yet you have NO evidence of it - other than you assert that you have it.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll This is how you debate, you will never see a debate of a christian and an athiest talking about the nuts and bolts of the Bible, if you do see that, its a debate that's going nowhere, they are going to talk about Logic, because that is the point of dispute between them, does God exists or not.
Now my dispute with you is: What is baptism of the Holy Spirit? I established my point using John 1:33, Acts 1:5, and Acts 11:15-17, you used Eph 4:4-6.
Judgement220 1 year ago
@Judgement220 "you will never see a debate of a christian and an athiest talking about the nuts and bolts of the Bible" Already have - the Warren-Flew Debate - read it and saw it.
lllllannalllll 1 year ago
@lllllannalllll It is always a pointless debate when a athiests debates a christian over the bible, why is that? the debate is always going to be apriori on both sides, those are always the stupidest debates to set up. It goes nowhere.
Judgement220 1 year ago