I can't believe how close that pilot got... unfortunately it is quite obvious that the tail and ball turret gunners were dead from the beginning of the attack run.
A number of comments noted that there was no return fire from the B-17 being attacked. This sequence is shown in slow motion. Normally, a firing pass by the attacker lasted only 5 to 10 seconds to avoid return fire from other bombers in formation. Inside the B-17 at -20 degrees gun freezeups & jams were frequent, the gunners were tripping around in ankle-deep spent shell cartridges, or holding on while the pilots took evasive action. Oxygen systems failures, too. Miserable conditions for sure.
Incredible footage. Bf-110 twin-engine Luftwaffe fighters were outfitted with heavy nose or wing cannon as 'bomber destroyers' and were very successful against the bomber streams until early 1944, when long-range escort fighters came online and made these heavily armored slow-moving fighters easy targets. Tactic was to attack the 'low-and-slow-outside' positions of the bomber box formations and aim for the engines, fuel tanks or the cockpit for a 'kill'. Very effective...
@madcitymcflyer man it was effective in this video for sure! im amazed at how accurate that pilot was at aiming for vitals. wow. sidenote... wouldnt want to be a ball or tail gunner.id bet money that no one wanted those jobs. unless they had a deathwish.
@sunlogosis There was a story about how the tankers told the Bomber crews how easy their job was and one of the air crew offered a tanker his place on the plane just to see what would happen. The tanker asked "great which position are you in"? The air crewman replied "Why turret ball gunner of course!". The tanker told him to go to hell. True story...
2:04 the ball gunner, tail gunner and left waist gunner were dead before this German plane attacked or he never would have gotten that close. An event that occurred all too often. This is a tribute to the B-17 and the huge amount of punishment it could take and still remain in the air.
Compliments to the uploader. "109 cannon passed through fuselage at great range" My neighbor was a 109 pilot shot down per battle/Britain.. my immediate neighbor "Bill J." Bailed from B-24's as bombardier 2+ times over France and made to safety..I would like to hear anything as good per the B-24... I flew once in B-25 per Confederate A/F and I liked its capabilities. " An attack at climb and altitude from below per 109 was commitment to accurate primary burst//expertise. Or suicide..
@MrDaveSS1 I flew in a B-24 a week ago and it was the greatest experience in my life (I'm a historian/collector). It's the only B-24 liberator Bomber left flying in the world. The other one was a B-24 A that was assigned as a cargo carrier and refitted to such but has now been restored to her B-24 A originality.
@bad74maverick1 how do you think it would handle a bomb-load wit crew. I'd heard they were a bit hard to get off the ground as technology was straining the limits of HP vs.DRAG WEIGHT. I'd never asked my friend Bill, who died this year.. Helmut H. the 109 pilot said fuel and supercharger limitations caused overheating at that threshold often prohibiting a safer foreword high attack.. and 109's would team up on one bomber to eliminate the gunners before moving in for the kill...
@MrDaveSS1 If you have an E-mail you feel comfortable with me mailing to you I have a video of take off. It took forever the plane started on taxi then about half way down the strip you heard the superchargers really kick in. I was sitting behind the pilot in the top turret base. I had a camera out the window so I got to see the plane engines and the ground at the same time as we left the ground.
I was the only one allowed to sit in the front and rear turret because I was smallest enough and it was great I have vids of that too. It would handle the bomb load fine we had a half full bomb bay of inert bombs (for historical display) and we moved fine and nimble in the air. the plane is spacious you can stand up in it except crawling to the nose turret and bomb sight which was a heck of a crawl. let me know can send pics and videos.
I'm not a veteran, but my father was in Vietnam. I remember bringing home my first girlfriend who was vietnamese when I was a teenager. He didn't look angry. He didn't look shocked. He smiled and was pleasant. When she wasn't looking, I saw it in his face. He was a few years older than me, at the time, when he first saw a vietnamese woman. His face showed the irony of it all. We are all human beings and she was a beautiful woman. I wonder where she is now?
dhbiza you forgot about the part i said about american pilots strafing fleeing civilians and yes strafing cattle is the same as strafing parachutes. more german civilians died after the war from disease and starvation than died from collateral damage. also 1 million german soldiers died in captivity from the western allies the same thing disease and starvation. but thank god some american pilots gunned down all those evil nazi cows and draft animals.
@MrPeterharold - "American pilots strafing fleeing civilians"? "1 million German soldiers died in captivity from the Western allies"? Where are you getting this bologna from?!
@JohnQuincyAdams1 the first half is true but German pows had it great in Texas and other camps, starvation ? is that supposed to even the score with atrocities committed by the SS from 1938-1945?it's called getting what you asked for.
Although the attack seems to last a minute, Luftwaffe gun cameras didn't record in 'real' time. A typical fighter firing pass, once in range, lasted about two to three
seconds of firing before breaking off. Formation speed for a B-17 was about 175mph. Luftwaffe tactic was to isolate fire on the 'low and outside' elements of the AAF box formation, then break off. This kept the concentrated defensive fire of the box formation bombers at a minimum.
Same B-17 that's in other post. This is a "German Propaganda Film" showing German pilots how easy it was to shoot the B-17….What they didn’t tell the pilots that the crew had already bailed out!! You can see that none of the gunners on the B-17 shooting back at them. Even on the second pass the guns have not moved on the B-17. There is no way our gunners would let Germans get that close and not fire at them. This was told to me by a member of The C.A.F. over 10 years ago!!!
By no means is this a method of providing long range escort fighter, it's just a temporary stopgap measure to provide escort fighters into Germany until long-range planes like the P-51 can be fielded. Since the carriers can be stationed next to the French border near the Neatherlands, it would provide the B-17s fighter escort for up to a hundred extra miles. Again, the carriers would be extremely vulnerable to opposing bombers, but their escort ships and fighters should be enough to defend them.
I was just thinking about how the B-17s suffered enourmous casualties, and I realized that they could have used British carriers to launch fighters to escort the B-17s. When the escort fighters escorting the bombers run low on fuel, they can go a couple miles off shore to the carriers and be replaced by fighters launched from the carriers. Of course, the carriers would be prime targets, but since they would be only equipped with fighters and have radar, they would be very hard to destroy.
my father was a b-17 pilot in the 8th in '44....he said it was an awful way to make a buck--and scared? woooooweee, yes indeed...terrifying and grim business to be in
@BlankUberAlles your father was a pussy. Think what german pilots had to feel, in small pack attacking huge formation of B-17's , covering each other with machinegun fire
@EasternEuropean86 my old man had a lot of well earned respect for the German fighter pilots, but he wasnt a pussy. The only pussy on this thread is you, you dumb motherfucker
I have seen this video before, more than likely in American History class in high school. The B-17 was an amazing aircraft because there was something special about them. Many of them were shot up as badly or worse than the one in this video and somehow they would make it back to home base to bring " her boys " home. All B-17s had female names and quite a few of them came home on their bellies. Stories abound about how the ground crew would open the door only to find the flight crew dead.
There were a lot of good people on all sides of this war..and as a professional, retired military individual, I respect ANYBODY on ANY SIDE who goes forth and does his best for his/her country....
@ModellMeister Then you should respect them as human beings who had no choice, not respect them for their determination in battle. The way you put it leaves a bitter aftertaste. Chances are the more determined the german soldier was the more he believed what he fought for was right. Would a german soldier who did what he had to do but nothing more, because he didnt belive in the nazi ideology, be worthy of less respect? Or the one who didnt want to fight for Hitler at all and went AWOL.
no, what Im saying is,you make it sound like serving Hitler'sGermany was a crime or something. Some, like Rudel (a stuka pilot) was an ardent nazi but gave his life for germany. at his funeral in the 60snk) everyone did the nazi salute. It was as much a crime to serve for the US as it was to serve for Nazi Germany. Which means it is not bad at all, so I dont understand why you put it like that, "even for hitlers nazi germany?" because everyone deserves respect. I think you misunderstood me.
@antibulletdodger101 no no matter what the cause is, remember, there is no greater love shown by man than that for his motherland. Hitler could murder anyolne he wanted."even for hitlers Nazi Germany", duh. Whether he killed adn tortued half a billion or 1 billion or 1.5 billion people, it still doesnt matter. what matters is the people who gave their lives for Germanuy.
@ModellMeister you have a point but hans ulrich rudel did not give his life for his country,he ended the war flying an me 109 and he survived the war. now we can give no mercy to( some of the people) that were involved in the final solution. but many personel were not willing participants in camp operations but were placed there from the front lines for punishment. the suicide rate for concentration camp guards was extremely high.
@MrPeterharold I know Rudel survived, but giving your life for you country doesnt mean you die. Rudel was willing to die and.. he gave a leg and an eye.
@flying635 Even those guerrilla warriors that will poison the water wells in Africa, or the Japanese kamikaze, or the taliban terrorists? Man, us civilians really have a completely way of looking at things...
No doubt there were many good men from either side. That's why war is always tragic, even when it's necessary. But SOME soldiers are not worth being respected (not the case here, I don't think).
@flying635 IM THE BEST STUDENT YOU EVER TALKED TO.....ITS STUPID TO PRAISE PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE DUMB ENOUGH TO AGREE TO PICK UP A GUN AND KILL PEOPLE IN SOME BULLSHIT WAR, WHICH IS WHAT MOST WARS ARE. BULLSHIT....
@flying635 I served in Nam two tours. I was in country 70-72. Always respcect your enemy. If not for thier courage, but so you don't underestamate them. A few Rpg's and old AK's can do a lot of damage in trainen and determand hands. There were no tours for Germans. You fought untill you where hurt to bad to fight or dead. 190's and 109's flew round the clock. Thats why top German aces' had over 350 confermend arial victories. I always feared being in the ball turrent of a B-17/24,
rear gunner must've been dead. actually, tailgating a bomber is the most risky way of attacking it. Not just that the tail gunner will have an easy shot at you, the silhoute of the bomber is also very small from behind making it more difficult to score a hit. The best way to attack a bomber is to dive down from above the bomber using deflection shot.
Dam, it must have sucked to be in those bombers being shredded by bullets and you can't do much about it, it must have also sucked to pull the trigger and realizing there are people in there.
f you like the B17 i have a story for u in 1943 UK east harling . An american airman took to war with him a coin SEAL it was his fathers .The coin was very soon to become the good luck Icon for the base and then all of the other bases.Unknown to them they were carrying the seal of god on their missions.The coin was one of four sewn into Jesus cloke it had been past hand to hand to this momentin time Hitler had to go .See The real christos coin u tube to see the mission
@rhett443 The B-17's skin is as thin as the average soda can so its not much protection from 20mm and 30mm cannon as Bf-110's were armed with but it looks like it was hit with 20mm going by the flashes of the hits, that many 30mm hits and you would have seen the plane cut in half and the ball turret would be obliterated.
Any nation is proud of their warriors no matter good or bad. However if you have had the pleasure to work in Germany and socialise on all levels, you will be surprised. As soon as they have a drink down their neck and they start to open up a little. You see that they are still proud od being Nazis. I wish I could say a different story, but this is a scary (to me anyway) sad and proves a panzer never changes it's spot.
@Truimphful wouldn't you be proud? though i am not a nazi i have to say they probably had one of the best armies the world has ever seen. it took the weight of the whole world to stop them.
2:16 the tail gunner and ball turrent seem like they didn't stand a chance. the damage of all them rounds impacting the aircraft is astonishing. the B-17 was one tuff aircraft that took a lot of punishment and still kept flying.
@germaniajim No he is not - the down position of the .50Cal indicates that he is out of turret. That will be a shot up bomber ,with gunners bailed out. Nazi fighter is trying to bring it down ,for a kill confirmation.
remember when you lost the war because we had bigger balls and bigger brains than your faggot germans? germany is a lame country with a lame heritage. i would be embarrassed if i had german roots. kill yourself.
@seanish4042 You fucking asshole. I'm German and proud. It took the weight of the world to bring The Third Reich down, they were vastly out numbered and still conquered most of Europe. And don't think for a second that America Didn't commit war crimes. As for a lame heritage? Don't forget that many early American settlers were German, you're probably insulting yourself. Germany also had the Medieval ages, with castles and Knights.
@Und3rAchiever I am American but i do agree with everything you said. I ahte it when pesky europeans and Russians talk about how they "Crushed" Germany in WW2. And i always tell them they didnt crush shit. LIke you said the only reason Germany lost was because it was fighting against basically all of Europe except Italy. They were also fighting Russia and the USA. And Germany still put up a good fight.
@TheExploit91 Thanks. I really appreciate you saying that. Its no secret that America did help win the war, and that they had great soldiers too, but most people simply forget Germany's side of the story. Cheers.
Horrifying. The German Pilot clearly targets the belly gunner. Imagine being in that turret and hammered by 20 mm cannon shells, nowhere to go, nowhere to hide.
@davidgrahamscott I could be wrong, but since the victim in question is a bomber the purpose of shooting it down was probably to prevent it from dropping ordinance on military and civilian targets, no? lol
@davidgrahamscott The bomber could still carry out a bombing run without its gunners. It was a war, both countries were defending their homeland. The US Army Air Corp, but mostly Royal Air Force, conducted a 'total war' and literally leveled the entire western half of their country, the RAF targeted everything from houses to factories. My grandfather told me when he entered Germany, there was rarely a building standing all the way to Berlin, some towns and cities were completely wiped out.
The difference between the German pilots and the American pilots is that the Germans actually had a cause and purpose that they were fighting for. Americans were just there to support British policy and had no moral right to engage in the war. The Germans were fighting for their homeland and to protect their cities from the mass murdering British and American bombers. America was never threatened by Germany at any point. It's unbelievable how many Americans believe that they were right in WW2.
Irrational, yes. But it's very believable. Look around. There are people who apparently think the Afghanis and Iraqis are going to land in LCTs, waving scimitars, impose Shariah law and "take your freedoms," just like the people who think Vietnam vets fought to protect Americans.
@SansAuthoritas Whether or not Muslims can do anything to us is secondary to the point that they want to kill us. Nobody is worried about them attacking tomorrow. People are worried about the day they will be able to attack us effectively. As for Vietnam vets, they fought for their country. People taking a shit on the faces of Vietnam vets because they didn't agree with the war they were forced to fight in has always been totally fucking stupid.
Effectively? Anyone with $1000 and half an ounce of intelligence would be able to pull off an attack that would make 9/11 look like a cakewalk. There's nothing that can be done to stop any such halfway intelligent person. Especially not sending troops 4,000 miles away to enrage them even more.
Viet Nam veterans fought for the government, not their country. Unless you think the government is your country? Does the government represent YOU?
I don't know what you mean by your statement "taking a #*** on their faces," but if you mean people criticized them for killing people who posed no threat, and that was wrong because they were "forced" into it? It's insulting to say that they were "forced' to do anything against their wills. They were conscripted, yes. Did they have to fight, if they thought it was immoral? No. They made their own decision to kill people, and people have every right to call them on that.
I don't know what you mean by your statement "taking a #*** on their faces," but if you mean people criticized them for killing people who posed no threat, and that was wrong because they were "forced" into it? It's insulting to say that they were "forced' to do anything against their wills. They were conscripted, yes. Did they have to fight, if they thought it was immoral? No. They made their own decision to kill people.
US, were attacking German ships U boats way before, Germany declared was on the US after Japan.
It was a undeclared war on the US part vs the German navy. You can look it up FDR, knew the US people didn't want to go to war, so he didn't tell them, he be leaved Germany was a threat even if the people didn't.
The US navy went to war, taking loses attacking U boats near England. The public didn't know about it tell years later after the war.
Germany started the Civilian bombing and the Brit took it to a level beyond anything ever before it.
Brit carpet bomb every city, even if there was no government military base or even army posted there.
The head UK air force be leaved bombing city will scare the government into stopping . The US on the other hand and most other leader be leaved in targeted Military/ gov sites.
Every German city got carpet bombed by the UK air force.
Factories? Sometimes. Often, they deliberately targeted civilian populations. Just like the SS did. "Just doing my job" and "just following orders" is not an excuse for murder, as the world found out at Nuremberg.
@SansAuthoritas not often the bombing was targeted on civilians the majority of bombs dropped on germany and japan was on civilians,british(noted was "working class neighborhoods burn better "by english air arshall) and then amelikan air policy.german military production increrased output inspite of the bombing.
To refuse to assign guilt to the people actually pulling the triggers and dropping the bombs on innocent people is the ultimate in condescension. They are individuals, and are responsible for their own individual actions. They are not robots. They have brains and consciences, and they have the duty to use them.
@SansAuthoritas I'm sure you agree with the murder of millions of innocent people by the evil hands of the Nazis. In a perfect world we wouldn't have wars. Maybe we could move to your moral world where there's never a necessity for war. America didnt start the war. We just finished it.
@SansAuthoritas ... Yeah .. just ask the English about The Blitz on London .. a million houses destroyed or damaged and 1 million incendiary bombs dropped or Hull with 85% of all its buildings destroyed .. then you can have a whinge about Dresden and Hamburg.
Do you really subscribe to playground morality? "They started it, so I'm just doing it back?" If someone raped your wife, would you go out and rape the culprit's wife? Disgusting.
@SansAuthoritas .. Your analogy is flawed .. what you should have said if raping the culprits wife would stop the culprit from sticking a knife in your neck (however weak that culprit might be at the time) ... war in itself is a disgusting and ignoble and morality goes out the window in most cases. The Luftwaffe pilots did their bravest and best, as did the RAF etc defending their homelands but to tar the bomber crews on either side as villains is a bit myopic.
@nurgle11 The analogy is only flawed to a consequentialist. And all consequentialists are irrational anyway. They think the end justifies the means. It does not.
The analogy is only flawed if one is an irrational consequentialist. And all consequentialists are irrational. If a desirable end gives the moral quality to the means, then anything goes, and there is no such thing as morality. But that's now how you live your life. Morality is objective. Deliberately killing innocents is objectively and gravely evil.
@SansAuthoritas Oh I see you went from utilitarianism to the broader ethical philosophy of consequentialism .. which are no more or less valid than say Deontology or aretaic moral theories. One of it's criticisms is that it too rational so I dont see where you are going with this. PS. innocence is subjective not objective. I think we are finished here, I cant be bothered arguing with someone who seems to have a tenuous grasp on the subject matter.
@nurgle11 I thought I had deleted my original post because I immediately saw my first term was innacurate.
"Too rational?" Society isn't often very rational in its theories, even if it is a bit more rational (and therefore logically inconsistent with their theories) in how it lives. In a society where Keynesianism is king, I don't put much stock in what 'most people' think. If there is any morality, guilt and innocence are objective. Do you even believe in an objective morality? Or truth?
@SansAuthoritas .. Your analogy is flawed .. what you should have said if raping the culprits wife would stop the culprit from sticking a knife in your neck (however weak that culprit might be at the time) ... war in itself is a disgusting and ignoble and morality goes out the window in most cases. The Luftwaffe pilots did their bravest and best, as did the RAF etc defending their homelands but to tar the bomber crews on either side as villains is a bit myopic.
@SansAuthoritas Have you ever spoken to anyone that was over there fighting thousands of miles from home? Do you honestly think these young men in their teens really wanted to be there dying?
I spoke to one B-17F pilot who, with a haunted look on his face, said, "You have to follow orders." The same thing the Nazi war criminals said at Nuremberg. But of course, the victors decide what a "war crime" is, and never accuse themselves of war crimes. I don't care if they wanted to be there dying. What is your emotional question supposed to prove? Deliberately killing innocents is always immoral. Period. If you don't believe that, your moral compass is beyond repair.
@ih8v8s i can see now that im watching on my laptop. i had watched the video on my phone previously. I'm pretty well versed in the B-17 my grandfather flew with red morgan. He lost his arm on the bomb run that Red morgan recieved the congressional medal of honor.
@Tomekwinxs Yes, one can see the many explosions in the engine nacelles but what is most amazing is one can see that the engines were still producing power, not windmilling! I agree, if the pilots were alive, many times these shot-up and severely damaged birds would bring them home. This was truly up-close and personnel fighting and demonstrates true heroism.
i heard that B-17 landed safely with no loss of lifes back in England. The tail gunner and Mike the Midget (ball turrent) were on their 15 minute break.
man by the angle the fighter had on the last 17... Id say that just about everyone but the pilots were dead after that attack... shooting right up the middle of the aircraft.
these engines are punished with a lot of shots but continue to operate. Incredible
1234pulpo 1 month ago
Unlike pokemon they couldn't get'em all.
prodos8 1 month ago
@prodos8 Come on...
pajodato 1 month ago
us hımm
gvnkamera 2 months ago
I can't believe how close that pilot got... unfortunately it is quite obvious that the tail and ball turret gunners were dead from the beginning of the attack run.
jiminy82 3 months ago
Rebelsonband,I think you were right..the ammo was out!that is too bad for the crew!
nicolaas737 3 months ago
A number of comments noted that there was no return fire from the B-17 being attacked. This sequence is shown in slow motion. Normally, a firing pass by the attacker lasted only 5 to 10 seconds to avoid return fire from other bombers in formation. Inside the B-17 at -20 degrees gun freezeups & jams were frequent, the gunners were tripping around in ankle-deep spent shell cartridges, or holding on while the pilots took evasive action. Oxygen systems failures, too. Miserable conditions for sure.
madcitymcflyer 3 months ago
Incredible footage. Bf-110 twin-engine Luftwaffe fighters were outfitted with heavy nose or wing cannon as 'bomber destroyers' and were very successful against the bomber streams until early 1944, when long-range escort fighters came online and made these heavily armored slow-moving fighters easy targets. Tactic was to attack the 'low-and-slow-outside' positions of the bomber box formations and aim for the engines, fuel tanks or the cockpit for a 'kill'. Very effective...
madcitymcflyer 3 months ago
@madcitymcflyer man it was effective in this video for sure! im amazed at how accurate that pilot was at aiming for vitals. wow. sidenote... wouldnt want to be a ball or tail gunner.id bet money that no one wanted those jobs. unless they had a deathwish.
sunlogosis 1 month ago
@sunlogosis There was a story about how the tankers told the Bomber crews how easy their job was and one of the air crew offered a tanker his place on the plane just to see what would happen. The tanker asked "great which position are you in"? The air crewman replied "Why turret ball gunner of course!". The tanker told him to go to hell. True story...
4shacks1house 1 month ago
man the b17's could take a shitload of punishment.
stainedinblack 3 months ago
wow that is mad!
Garrattwayne 4 months ago
1:18 Messerschmitt Bf 100? You mean Bf 109?
lukum55 4 months ago
ilikethe tin man
dchoran1 4 months ago
@ThePlainzfyre - The tail gunner is likely dead.
JohnQuincyAdams1 4 months ago
2:04 the ball gunner, tail gunner and left waist gunner were dead before this German plane attacked or he never would have gotten that close. An event that occurred all too often. This is a tribute to the B-17 and the huge amount of punishment it could take and still remain in the air.
356butch 5 months ago
@ThePlainzfyre OR WORSE!
bad74maverick1 5 months ago
Compliments to the uploader. "109 cannon passed through fuselage at great range" My neighbor was a 109 pilot shot down per battle/Britain.. my immediate neighbor "Bill J." Bailed from B-24's as bombardier 2+ times over France and made to safety..I would like to hear anything as good per the B-24... I flew once in B-25 per Confederate A/F and I liked its capabilities. " An attack at climb and altitude from below per 109 was commitment to accurate primary burst//expertise. Or suicide..
MrDaveSS1 5 months ago
@MrDaveSS1 I flew in a B-24 a week ago and it was the greatest experience in my life (I'm a historian/collector). It's the only B-24 liberator Bomber left flying in the world. The other one was a B-24 A that was assigned as a cargo carrier and refitted to such but has now been restored to her B-24 A originality.
bad74maverick1 5 months ago
@bad74maverick1 how do you think it would handle a bomb-load wit crew. I'd heard they were a bit hard to get off the ground as technology was straining the limits of HP vs.DRAG WEIGHT. I'd never asked my friend Bill, who died this year.. Helmut H. the 109 pilot said fuel and supercharger limitations caused overheating at that threshold often prohibiting a safer foreword high attack.. and 109's would team up on one bomber to eliminate the gunners before moving in for the kill...
MrDaveSS1 5 months ago
@MrDaveSS1 If you have an E-mail you feel comfortable with me mailing to you I have a video of take off. It took forever the plane started on taxi then about half way down the strip you heard the superchargers really kick in. I was sitting behind the pilot in the top turret base. I had a camera out the window so I got to see the plane engines and the ground at the same time as we left the ground.
bad74maverick1 5 months ago
I was the only one allowed to sit in the front and rear turret because I was smallest enough and it was great I have vids of that too. It would handle the bomb load fine we had a half full bomb bay of inert bombs (for historical display) and we moved fine and nimble in the air. the plane is spacious you can stand up in it except crawling to the nose turret and bomb sight which was a heck of a crawl. let me know can send pics and videos.
bad74maverick1 5 months ago
@MrDaveSS1 when i seen this guy climbing to shoot i was surprised. but he seemed to be very accurate. lucky for him.
sunlogosis 1 month ago
I see no tracer-rounds from the B-17 ?? Gun destroyed or something,mayby no ammo..
RebelSonBand 5 months ago
@RebelSonBand - The gunners may very well be dead.
JohnQuincyAdams1 4 months ago
Tragick,but the pilots did what they have to do. Kill...
sigge54 5 months ago
B - 17 excellent aircraft
kratan21 5 months ago
Comment removed
kratan21 5 months ago
I'm not a veteran, but my father was in Vietnam. I remember bringing home my first girlfriend who was vietnamese when I was a teenager. He didn't look angry. He didn't look shocked. He smiled and was pleasant. When she wasn't looking, I saw it in his face. He was a few years older than me, at the time, when he first saw a vietnamese woman. His face showed the irony of it all. We are all human beings and she was a beautiful woman. I wonder where she is now?
thorpowerfly 6 months ago
dhbiza you forgot about the part i said about american pilots strafing fleeing civilians and yes strafing cattle is the same as strafing parachutes. more german civilians died after the war from disease and starvation than died from collateral damage. also 1 million german soldiers died in captivity from the western allies the same thing disease and starvation. but thank god some american pilots gunned down all those evil nazi cows and draft animals.
MrPeterharold 6 months ago
@MrPeterharold No, I mean no historical facts stated here. Please disregard this comment completely
thorpowerfly 6 months ago
@MrPeterharold - "American pilots strafing fleeing civilians"? "1 million German soldiers died in captivity from the Western allies"? Where are you getting this bologna from?!
JohnQuincyAdams1 4 months ago
@JohnQuincyAdams1
Chuck Yeager wrote in his biography about being ordered to "shoot anything that moved" during a terror operation against German civilians.
Fact: Eisenhower ordered the starvation of millions of German POW's; see "Other Losses" by James Bacque
freddytheflintstone1 4 months ago
@freddytheflintstone1 IM NO FAN OF IKE, BUT THE OTHER LOSSES THING MIGHT BE BULLCRAP. IN SOME WAYS
1IIIIIIIIII1 3 months ago
@JohnQuincyAdams1 the first half is true but German pows had it great in Texas and other camps, starvation ? is that supposed to even the score with atrocities committed by the SS from 1938-1945?it's called getting what you asked for.
TecDiver05 3 months ago
dhbiza might be the stupidest son of a bitch to ever fall asleep in history class
MrPeterharold 6 months ago
Although the attack seems to last a minute, Luftwaffe gun cameras didn't record in 'real' time. A typical fighter firing pass, once in range, lasted about two to three
seconds of firing before breaking off. Formation speed for a B-17 was about 175mph. Luftwaffe tactic was to isolate fire on the 'low and outside' elements of the AAF box formation, then break off. This kept the concentrated defensive fire of the box formation bombers at a minimum.
madcitymcflyer 6 months ago
They turn the gun camera off as they strafe the American flyers floating down on parachutes. yeah. really good people.
dhbiza 6 months ago
@dhbiza i also don't see any footage of americans strafing livestock and civilians fleeing from the russians.;
MrPeterharold 6 months ago
@MrPeterharold so in your mind....killing a cow is the same as strafing a human on a parachute....hmmmmmm
dhbiza 6 months ago
@chrysanthos66 No, B-17's didint have autopilot, they did have a level stabilizer so that the plane would fly straight and level.
joeyg1331 7 months ago
Same B-17 that's in other post. This is a "German Propaganda Film" showing German pilots how easy it was to shoot the B-17….What they didn’t tell the pilots that the crew had already bailed out!! You can see that none of the gunners on the B-17 shooting back at them. Even on the second pass the guns have not moved on the B-17. There is no way our gunners would let Germans get that close and not fire at them. This was told to me by a member of The C.A.F. over 10 years ago!!!
fish621825 7 months ago
@fish621825
There is always a chance that the crew were killed, when, you know, 20mm shells pierced the fuselage and shrapnelled the insides of a plane.
ArtypNk 6 months ago
2:40 its becoming clear that this flight crew won't be getting home :/
also great flying by the BF-110 pilot, getting that close, I thought for sure he was gonna get smacked by debris.
OneEyeWonderWeasil 7 months ago
Those defending their homeland were the real heroes -
TheBeechingAxe 7 months ago
By no means is this a method of providing long range escort fighter, it's just a temporary stopgap measure to provide escort fighters into Germany until long-range planes like the P-51 can be fielded. Since the carriers can be stationed next to the French border near the Neatherlands, it would provide the B-17s fighter escort for up to a hundred extra miles. Again, the carriers would be extremely vulnerable to opposing bombers, but their escort ships and fighters should be enough to defend them.
Karel5656 7 months ago
I was just thinking about how the B-17s suffered enourmous casualties, and I realized that they could have used British carriers to launch fighters to escort the B-17s. When the escort fighters escorting the bombers run low on fuel, they can go a couple miles off shore to the carriers and be replaced by fighters launched from the carriers. Of course, the carriers would be prime targets, but since they would be only equipped with fighters and have radar, they would be very hard to destroy.
Karel5656 7 months ago
@Karel5656
If they were "A couple of miles of shore" they would make wonderful targets for any artillery. Also, U-boats.
ArtypNk 6 months ago
If they knew what a shithole this country has turned into, they would have gone AWOL.
HateGovernment 7 months ago
my father was a b-17 pilot in the 8th in '44....he said it was an awful way to make a buck--and scared? woooooweee, yes indeed...terrifying and grim business to be in
BlankUberAlles 7 months ago
@BlankUberAlles your father was a pussy. Think what german pilots had to feel, in small pack attacking huge formation of B-17's , covering each other with machinegun fire
EasternEuropean86 7 months ago
@EasternEuropean86 my old man had a lot of well earned respect for the German fighter pilots, but he wasnt a pussy. The only pussy on this thread is you, you dumb motherfucker
BlankUberAlles 7 months ago
I have seen this video before, more than likely in American History class in high school. The B-17 was an amazing aircraft because there was something special about them. Many of them were shot up as badly or worse than the one in this video and somehow they would make it back to home base to bring " her boys " home. All B-17s had female names and quite a few of them came home on their bellies. Stories abound about how the ground crew would open the door only to find the flight crew dead.
bwild61 7 months ago 2
HORRIDO!!!!!!!!
wirikuta14 7 months ago
The person who is claiming copyright on this is FOS.
Postie218 8 months ago
There were a lot of good people on all sides of this war..and as a professional, retired military individual, I respect ANYBODY on ANY SIDE who goes forth and does his best for his/her country....
flying635 8 months ago 36
@flying635 sorry. A "Good German" fighting for his side is fighting for Nazism and the concentration camps. That is not a Good person.
dhbiza 6 months ago
@flying635 even for Hitlers Nazi Germany?
antibulletdodger101 6 months ago
@antibulletdodger101 of course, most german soldiers were there by no choice
ModellMeister 6 months ago
@ModellMeister Then you should respect them as human beings who had no choice, not respect them for their determination in battle. The way you put it leaves a bitter aftertaste. Chances are the more determined the german soldier was the more he believed what he fought for was right. Would a german soldier who did what he had to do but nothing more, because he didnt belive in the nazi ideology, be worthy of less respect? Or the one who didnt want to fight for Hitler at all and went AWOL.
antibulletdodger101 6 months ago
no, what Im saying is,you make it sound like serving Hitler'sGermany was a crime or something. Some, like Rudel (a stuka pilot) was an ardent nazi but gave his life for germany. at his funeral in the 60snk) everyone did the nazi salute. It was as much a crime to serve for the US as it was to serve for Nazi Germany. Which means it is not bad at all, so I dont understand why you put it like that, "even for hitlers nazi germany?" because everyone deserves respect. I think you misunderstood me.
ModellMeister 6 months ago
@ModellMeister You are obviously either pro-nazi or havent thought his trough enough.
antibulletdodger101 6 months ago
@antibulletdodger101 no no matter what the cause is, remember, there is no greater love shown by man than that for his motherland. Hitler could murder anyolne he wanted."even for hitlers Nazi Germany", duh. Whether he killed adn tortued half a billion or 1 billion or 1.5 billion people, it still doesnt matter. what matters is the people who gave their lives for Germanuy.
ModellMeister 6 months ago
@ModellMeister you have a point but hans ulrich rudel did not give his life for his country,he ended the war flying an me 109 and he survived the war. now we can give no mercy to( some of the people) that were involved in the final solution. but many personel were not willing participants in camp operations but were placed there from the front lines for punishment. the suicide rate for concentration camp guards was extremely high.
MrPeterharold 6 months ago
@MrPeterharold I know Rudel survived, but giving your life for you country doesnt mean you die. Rudel was willing to die and.. he gave a leg and an eye.
ModellMeister 5 months ago
@ModellMeister ok i get your angle
MrPeterharold 5 months ago
@flying635 Even those guerrilla warriors that will poison the water wells in Africa, or the Japanese kamikaze, or the taliban terrorists? Man, us civilians really have a completely way of looking at things...
No doubt there were many good men from either side. That's why war is always tragic, even when it's necessary. But SOME soldiers are not worth being respected (not the case here, I don't think).
TiagoMorbusSa 5 months ago
@flying635 Even when genocide is the motive?
a55kiker 5 months ago
@flying635 most of these people were drafted. its not like they had a choice. especially the nazi side, where 'pacifists' were regularly executed
DoBrigh 5 months ago
@flying635 NOT ME
1IIIIIIIIII1 3 months ago
@1IIIIIIIIII1
U r not a very good student of history..who to hell do you think helped us most in the cold war ?/
flying635 3 months ago
@flying635 IM THE BEST STUDENT YOU EVER TALKED TO.....ITS STUPID TO PRAISE PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE DUMB ENOUGH TO AGREE TO PICK UP A GUN AND KILL PEOPLE IN SOME BULLSHIT WAR, WHICH IS WHAT MOST WARS ARE. BULLSHIT....
1IIIIIIIIII1 3 months ago
@flying635 I served in Nam two tours. I was in country 70-72. Always respcect your enemy. If not for thier courage, but so you don't underestamate them. A few Rpg's and old AK's can do a lot of damage in trainen and determand hands. There were no tours for Germans. You fought untill you where hurt to bad to fight or dead. 190's and 109's flew round the clock. Thats why top German aces' had over 350 confermend arial victories. I always feared being in the ball turrent of a B-17/24,
FadeToGrayLLC 2 weeks ago
Looks like someone decided to camp out in his backyard with a cannon and have a party.
timej31 8 months ago
@timej31 Not much choice, allies had air superiority thank god :D
ToreDL87 8 months ago
rear gunner must've been dead. actually, tailgating a bomber is the most risky way of attacking it. Not just that the tail gunner will have an easy shot at you, the silhoute of the bomber is also very small from behind making it more difficult to score a hit. The best way to attack a bomber is to dive down from above the bomber using deflection shot.
phadil 9 months ago
Dam, it must have sucked to be in those bombers being shredded by bullets and you can't do much about it, it must have also sucked to pull the trigger and realizing there are people in there.
jimmyxx3 9 months ago
That ball gunner was jelly.
ExPunkStar 9 months ago
I see why tailgunner was an enlisted position.
supressorgrid 9 months ago
I mean German or nazi schfüller parade.sorry
mateuszk840 9 months ago
You are very simple .meybe you should tube some movies from German or schfüller parade and leave History?
mateuszk840 9 months ago
Boeing, MUTHAFUCKAz
uuuultra 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
f you like the B17 i have a story for u in 1943 UK east harling . An american airman took to war with him a coin SEAL it was his fathers .The coin was very soon to become the good luck Icon for the base and then all of the other bases.Unknown to them they were carrying the seal of god on their missions.The coin was one of four sewn into Jesus cloke it had been past hand to hand to this momentin time Hitler had to go .See The real christos coin u tube to see the mission
krayzie1234567
krayzie1234567 10 months ago
well atleast the ball gunner was out.
rhett443 10 months ago
@rhett443 The B-17's skin is as thin as the average soda can so its not much protection from 20mm and 30mm cannon as Bf-110's were armed with but it looks like it was hit with 20mm going by the flashes of the hits, that many 30mm hits and you would have seen the plane cut in half and the ball turret would be obliterated.
patriot91101rip 9 months ago
Hey!!! German fighter,not "nazi fighter" .it's a big different .
mateuszk840 10 months ago
achtung juden aus rotten
nalgaface123456789 9 months ago
i love b-17 that was man aircraft
duck3saleh 10 months ago
Very good footage!
EkatiSS 10 months ago
@MoonManBob2 I'm not even German, but you're making the rest of us look bad. Enough with the limp-wristed dramatics.
godfugitive 10 months ago
I would think that the Bf110 was firing a 30mm, not a 20mm, with the distance that is shown, he's lobbing them in there....
DavidLister6000 10 months ago
Any nation is proud of their warriors no matter good or bad. However if you have had the pleasure to work in Germany and socialise on all levels, you will be surprised. As soon as they have a drink down their neck and they start to open up a little. You see that they are still proud od being Nazis. I wish I could say a different story, but this is a scary (to me anyway) sad and proves a panzer never changes it's spot.
Truimphful 10 months ago
@Truimphful wouldn't you be proud? though i am not a nazi i have to say they probably had one of the best armies the world has ever seen. it took the weight of the whole world to stop them.
godfugitive 10 months ago
@godfugitive True, they took some beating. A great army yet cruel to boot.
Truimphful 8 months ago
@Truimphful well of course its painted on
nimbalo300 8 months ago
2:16 the tail gunner and ball turrent seem like they didn't stand a chance. the damage of all them rounds impacting the aircraft is astonishing. the B-17 was one tuff aircraft that took a lot of punishment and still kept flying.
beltran954 10 months ago
im suprised that plane didnt explode right in front of him
llparasitell 11 months ago
It never fails to amaze me how much damage a B17 could take and still fly.
The only other aircraft with a similar reputation was the British hurricane fighter.
porty500 11 months ago
Man that was awfully close.
RadicalAwesomeness 11 months ago
haha that belly gunner yankee shit is dead
germaniajim 11 months ago
@germaniajim
Perhaps, but I wonder how many goose stepping morons he greased before departing this earth?
TheSlot1942 11 months ago
@germaniajim No he is not - the down position of the .50Cal indicates that he is out of turret. That will be a shot up bomber ,with gunners bailed out. Nazi fighter is trying to bring it down ,for a kill confirmation.
hogiesanKenobi 11 months ago
@germaniajim
remember when you lost the war because we had bigger balls and bigger brains than your faggot germans? germany is a lame country with a lame heritage. i would be embarrassed if i had german roots. kill yourself.
seanish4042 11 months ago
@seanish4042 wow. what are you? a caveman? where have you been, dumbass?
godfugitive 10 months ago
@godfugitive
ive been busy being superior to you in any way you can name. fire away, ass clown.
seanish4042 10 months ago
@seanish4042 yeah, you really suck. you're what is left after the masculinity and intelligence has been sucked out of a man.
godfugitive 10 months ago
@seanish4042 You fucking asshole. I'm German and proud. It took the weight of the world to bring The Third Reich down, they were vastly out numbered and still conquered most of Europe. And don't think for a second that America Didn't commit war crimes. As for a lame heritage? Don't forget that many early American settlers were German, you're probably insulting yourself. Germany also had the Medieval ages, with castles and Knights.
Und3rAchiever 10 months ago
@Und3rAchiever I am American but i do agree with everything you said. I ahte it when pesky europeans and Russians talk about how they "Crushed" Germany in WW2. And i always tell them they didnt crush shit. LIke you said the only reason Germany lost was because it was fighting against basically all of Europe except Italy. They were also fighting Russia and the USA. And Germany still put up a good fight.
TheExploit91 10 months ago
@TheExploit91 Thanks. I really appreciate you saying that. Its no secret that America did help win the war, and that they had great soldiers too, but most people simply forget Germany's side of the story. Cheers.
Und3rAchiever 10 months ago
@germaniajim not nearly as dead as your sense of humor.
TecDiver05 4 months ago
Horrifying. The German Pilot clearly targets the belly gunner. Imagine being in that turret and hammered by 20 mm cannon shells, nowhere to go, nowhere to hide.
TheSharkwhisperer 1 year ago
how is the war going?
sebagato01 1 year ago
OMG!!! At 3.06 it looks like the tailgunner's head is shot right out of the aircraft!! Oh the HUMANITY!!!!
davidgrahamscott 1 year ago
With those gunners both gone those Krauts just went in for the kill!! No sense of pity ...just cold-blooded killing!!!
davidgrahamscott 1 year ago
@davidgrahamscott I could be wrong, but since the victim in question is a bomber the purpose of shooting it down was probably to prevent it from dropping ordinance on military and civilian targets, no? lol
WombleMan 1 year ago
@davidgrahamscott The bomber could still carry out a bombing run without its gunners. It was a war, both countries were defending their homeland. The US Army Air Corp, but mostly Royal Air Force, conducted a 'total war' and literally leveled the entire western half of their country, the RAF targeted everything from houses to factories. My grandfather told me when he entered Germany, there was rarely a building standing all the way to Berlin, some towns and cities were completely wiped out.
NoOdL3z18 1 year ago
What your whatching is the chilling footage of men of your grandfathers vintage having their lives extinguished during the biggest war in history
slickstrings 1 year ago
Comment removed
TeutonicKnight39 1 year ago
The difference between the German pilots and the American pilots is that the Germans actually had a cause and purpose that they were fighting for. Americans were just there to support British policy and had no moral right to engage in the war. The Germans were fighting for their homeland and to protect their cities from the mass murdering British and American bombers. America was never threatened by Germany at any point. It's unbelievable how many Americans believe that they were right in WW2.
TeutonicKnight39 1 year ago
@TeutonicKnight39
Irrational, yes. But it's very believable. Look around. There are people who apparently think the Afghanis and Iraqis are going to land in LCTs, waving scimitars, impose Shariah law and "take your freedoms," just like the people who think Vietnam vets fought to protect Americans.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@SansAuthoritas Whether or not Muslims can do anything to us is secondary to the point that they want to kill us. Nobody is worried about them attacking tomorrow. People are worried about the day they will be able to attack us effectively. As for Vietnam vets, they fought for their country. People taking a shit on the faces of Vietnam vets because they didn't agree with the war they were forced to fight in has always been totally fucking stupid.
Nonsensei436 1 year ago
@Nonsensei436
Effectively? Anyone with $1000 and half an ounce of intelligence would be able to pull off an attack that would make 9/11 look like a cakewalk. There's nothing that can be done to stop any such halfway intelligent person. Especially not sending troops 4,000 miles away to enrage them even more.
Viet Nam veterans fought for the government, not their country. Unless you think the government is your country? Does the government represent YOU?
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@Nonsensei436
I don't know what you mean by your statement "taking a #*** on their faces," but if you mean people criticized them for killing people who posed no threat, and that was wrong because they were "forced" into it? It's insulting to say that they were "forced' to do anything against their wills. They were conscripted, yes. Did they have to fight, if they thought it was immoral? No. They made their own decision to kill people, and people have every right to call them on that.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@Nonsensei436
I don't know what you mean by your statement "taking a #*** on their faces," but if you mean people criticized them for killing people who posed no threat, and that was wrong because they were "forced" into it? It's insulting to say that they were "forced' to do anything against their wills. They were conscripted, yes. Did they have to fight, if they thought it was immoral? No. They made their own decision to kill people.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@TeutonicKnight39 err... what? are you drunk?
capatilist 1 year ago
@TeutonicKnight39 Point of clarity...
The Germans declared war on the US, not the other way around.
Germans were attacking shipping right off our coast.
Germany put saboteurs on US soil to destroy industry.
German bomber directly attacked civilian targets...The Blitz.
Now, where do you get " no right" and "never threatened"? Seems like you need to take off the hate blinders and see the reality of history.
Toddinfantry 1 year ago
@Toddinfantry
US, were attacking German ships U boats way before, Germany declared was on the US after Japan.
It was a undeclared war on the US part vs the German navy. You can look it up FDR, knew the US people didn't want to go to war, so he didn't tell them, he be leaved Germany was a threat even if the people didn't.
The US navy went to war, taking loses attacking U boats near England. The public didn't know about it tell years later after the war.
PSG1JOHN1 1 year ago
@Toddinfantry
Germany started the Civilian bombing and the Brit took it to a level beyond anything ever before it.
Brit carpet bomb every city, even if there was no government military base or even army posted there.
The head UK air force be leaved bombing city will scare the government into stopping . The US on the other hand and most other leader be leaved in targeted Military/ gov sites.
Every German city got carpet bombed by the UK air force.
PSG1JOHN1 1 year ago
@PSG1JOHN1 It had a term invented by the british.....Dehousing.
arveduilastking 1 year ago
@TeutonicKnight39 The German pilots had done exactly the same on London and Rotterdam in 1940. So there really is no difference.
ABrandsma 1 year ago
No Focke , gonna keep up with a Mustang , google the specs
ironmancwb 1 year ago
Tønd.... er der der er jæger.... endnu en gang M.. Tøndt. LORT
93team93 1 year ago
I have pictures of my grandfathers 17 its amazing it still flew.
duramaxdieseldad 1 year ago
That poor fort took an absolute pounding.
vfrl7r 1 year ago
A Luftwaffe fighter defending German civilians from being firebombed by murderers. Hamburg. Dresden.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@SansAuthoritas And a USAAF Bomber trying to stop an evil regime from committing even more crimes by crippling their factories and demoralizing them.
War has no 'Good' or 'Bad' Guys, it's the politicians who can be heroes and villains, Soldiers just do their job.
rdvd7 1 year ago
@rdvd7
Factories? Sometimes. Often, they deliberately targeted civilian populations. Just like the SS did. "Just doing my job" and "just following orders" is not an excuse for murder, as the world found out at Nuremberg.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@SansAuthoritas not often the bombing was targeted on civilians the majority of bombs dropped on germany and japan was on civilians,british(noted was "working class neighborhoods burn better "by english air arshall) and then amelikan air policy.german military production increrased output inspite of the bombing.
xtiml 1 year ago
@rdvd7
To refuse to assign guilt to the people actually pulling the triggers and dropping the bombs on innocent people is the ultimate in condescension. They are individuals, and are responsible for their own individual actions. They are not robots. They have brains and consciences, and they have the duty to use them.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@SansAuthoritas WOW!! some people are so misled and misinformed.
duramaxdieseldad 1 year ago
@duramaxdieseldad
Indeed! Particularly those who think it is moral to firebomb civilian cities, and call it anything other than what it is: mass murder.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@SansAuthoritas I'm sure you agree with the murder of millions of innocent people by the evil hands of the Nazis. In a perfect world we wouldn't have wars. Maybe we could move to your moral world where there's never a necessity for war. America didnt start the war. We just finished it.
duramaxdieseldad 1 year ago
@duramaxdieseldad
The Nazis deliberately killing innocents does not justify the 8th Air Force deliberately killing innocents.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@SansAuthoritas ... Yeah .. just ask the English about The Blitz on London .. a million houses destroyed or damaged and 1 million incendiary bombs dropped or Hull with 85% of all its buildings destroyed .. then you can have a whinge about Dresden and Hamburg.
nurgle11 1 year ago
@nurgle11
Do you really subscribe to playground morality? "They started it, so I'm just doing it back?" If someone raped your wife, would you go out and rape the culprit's wife? Disgusting.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@SansAuthoritas .. Your analogy is flawed .. what you should have said if raping the culprits wife would stop the culprit from sticking a knife in your neck (however weak that culprit might be at the time) ... war in itself is a disgusting and ignoble and morality goes out the window in most cases. The Luftwaffe pilots did their bravest and best, as did the RAF etc defending their homelands but to tar the bomber crews on either side as villains is a bit myopic.
nurgle11 1 year ago
Comment removed
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@nurgle11 The analogy is only flawed to a consequentialist. And all consequentialists are irrational anyway. They think the end justifies the means. It does not.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@nurgle11
The analogy is only flawed if one is an irrational consequentialist. And all consequentialists are irrational. If a desirable end gives the moral quality to the means, then anything goes, and there is no such thing as morality. But that's now how you live your life. Morality is objective. Deliberately killing innocents is objectively and gravely evil.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
@SansAuthoritas Oh I see you went from utilitarianism to the broader ethical philosophy of consequentialism .. which are no more or less valid than say Deontology or aretaic moral theories. One of it's criticisms is that it too rational so I dont see where you are going with this. PS. innocence is subjective not objective. I think we are finished here, I cant be bothered arguing with someone who seems to have a tenuous grasp on the subject matter.
nurgle11 1 year ago
@nurgle11 I thought I had deleted my original post because I immediately saw my first term was innacurate.
"Too rational?" Society isn't often very rational in its theories, even if it is a bit more rational (and therefore logically inconsistent with their theories) in how it lives. In a society where Keynesianism is king, I don't put much stock in what 'most people' think. If there is any morality, guilt and innocence are objective. Do you even believe in an objective morality? Or truth?
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@SansAuthoritas .. Your analogy is flawed .. what you should have said if raping the culprits wife would stop the culprit from sticking a knife in your neck (however weak that culprit might be at the time) ... war in itself is a disgusting and ignoble and morality goes out the window in most cases. The Luftwaffe pilots did their bravest and best, as did the RAF etc defending their homelands but to tar the bomber crews on either side as villains is a bit myopic.
nurgle11 1 year ago
@SansAuthoritas Have you ever spoken to anyone that was over there fighting thousands of miles from home? Do you honestly think these young men in their teens really wanted to be there dying?
duramaxdieseldad 1 year ago
@duramaxdieseldad
I spoke to one B-17F pilot who, with a haunted look on his face, said, "You have to follow orders." The same thing the Nazi war criminals said at Nuremberg. But of course, the victors decide what a "war crime" is, and never accuse themselves of war crimes. I don't care if they wanted to be there dying. What is your emotional question supposed to prove? Deliberately killing innocents is always immoral. Period. If you don't believe that, your moral compass is beyond repair.
SansAuthoritas 1 year ago
that doesnt look like a normal b-17 it looks like a yb-40 gun ship. it looks like it has two ball turrets.
duramaxdieseldad 1 year ago
@duramaxdieseldad This B-17 is the G version and it had a chin turret. What you are seeing is both the chin and ball turrets :)
The earlier B-17 E lacked the chin turret.
ih8v8s 1 year ago
@ih8v8s i can see now that im watching on my laptop. i had watched the video on my phone previously. I'm pretty well versed in the B-17 my grandfather flew with red morgan. He lost his arm on the bomb run that Red morgan recieved the congressional medal of honor.
duramaxdieseldad 1 year ago
@duramaxdieseldad many thanks to your grandfather and many others for their courageous sacrifice...Good to hear you know your WW2 Bombers aswell :)
ih8v8s 1 year ago
luftwaffe, the best air force ever
stihlms361chainsaw 1 year ago
@stihlms361chainsaw *USAF, RAF
BossHossGT500 1 year ago
@stihlms361chainsaw
duramaxdieseldad 1 year ago
@stihlms361chainsaw Obviously not as they lost the battle of britian? especially considering they had vastly superiour numbers of aircraft.
1975buddha 1 year ago
@stihlms361chainsaw
The most poorly led airforce ever.
They fought well, but the allies had superior numbers.
101327 1 year ago
makes me really sad and angry at the same time.
farfo5019 1 year ago
rest in peace boys
ZanderMckael 1 year ago
From what these frames show, the B17 was a tough old bird.
680F 1 year ago
@680F Did you see all the shot into the engines? B17 held up good as long as the pilots are alive.
Tomekwinxs 1 year ago
@Tomekwinxs Yes, one can see the many explosions in the engine nacelles but what is most amazing is one can see that the engines were still producing power, not windmilling! I agree, if the pilots were alive, many times these shot-up and severely damaged birds would bring them home. This was truly up-close and personnel fighting and demonstrates true heroism.
680F 1 year ago
The Nazis lost the war. Period.
clippervictory 1 year ago
1:16 BF "100"G-2 ??? oO
penetriergott 1 year ago
i heard that B-17 landed safely with no loss of lifes back in England. The tail gunner and Mike the Midget (ball turrent) were on their 15 minute break.
tninbredretard 1 year ago
Comment removed
BossHossGT500 1 year ago
@tninbredretard wow, you're name is tninbredretard for a reason because you're obviously retarded and inbred
BossHossGT500 1 year ago
incredible the endurance of B17, imagine this round of bullets into a He-111!!O_o!!
I can Imagine what happens when fatastic P51 arrived to defend B17!!
Masnovita11 1 year ago
man by the angle the fighter had on the last 17... Id say that just about everyone but the pilots were dead after that attack... shooting right up the middle of the aircraft.
DaLoner88 1 year ago