I don't like how Chavez has imposed a total gun ownership ban myself, I find that very draconian. And crime rates apparently have gone up since it happened rather than down.
I also don't like how he had a mass, presumably mandatory vaccination program. A lot of research has been done calling the safety and effectiveness of vaccines into question. Vaccines are also a big part of the pharmaceutical industry.
As im a communist, i dont really care if socialist governments does not allow dissent.. Whats that to me?, unimportant. I agree with their pro-humanitarian policies anyway, so im good.
..
And yes i do realize the irony in being so egoistic and being a communist lol.
You got me, that post of mine - which i do not remember, but is obviously posted by me - is much of an oxymoron.
However i cannot really come to think of any real socialist nation, that does not allow dissent. Cuba does, Venezuela does, Bolivia does, Belarus does, and spain (more social democratic) does.
you havent lived in venezuela, and u dont even speak spanish, so you cant say shit about my country. You dont know reality, go to cuba, north korea or iran and then give your opinion.
Ask cuban if they have freedom of speech, or ask north korean if they can criticize their government.
Dissent is alowed in venezuela because oposition is fighting for it, if it was up to chavez, he would close down all of the oposition's tv station and radios, follow the news and then talk.
yo gringo, if you study history you will know that chavez try to do a coup against carlos andres in 92 and we was set free when he should have been put to dead. Second, if you study latin american history, you will see that any president that tries to make a coup, ends up being a dictator.
So, study yourself, worry yourself about gringland's crisis and stop getting in someones' else business.
Socialist countries, like leberal democratic countries do permit dissent but dissent within socialists or capitalists respectively on how to proceed with socialism or capitalism respectively.
Far left groups exist in liberal democratic countries and are allowed to spread their ideas but wait till the left turn their ideas into reality and overthrow the capitalist system and you will soon see how far the capitalist will tolerate dissent.
I don't support Chavez. This video was made in the context of a guy categorically claiming that no socialist country allows dissent. I could have used lots of different examples but it just so happened this was fresh in my memory at the time. Also, while I don't support him, I don't fall into the blind demonization of him that is so prevalent in the West. I have problems with him but Venezuela and Bolivia are doing some remarkable things. I'm more interested in what the people are doing than...
They still don't allow for dissent, so if you have other examples maybe you could give them. I know! Do a video on Tiennamin Square! Another thing Chavez is fond of is political persecution, I just read about a chap who is in exile in Peru over this. You think starving the population and limiting their potential is remarkable? You're daft.
@RATMagainstbush8 it's the other way around: corporatism is a form of fascism (the only other form, luckily, only being theoretical so far, being used as a pejorative to describe the calculated likely effects of the implementation of anarcho-capitalism -- namely corporatocracy).
well lets look at how obama would react bassed on hitlers reaction he will probbly start suicide the army will try to liberate us from the horendous dictaotrship, probably fail and their will be a paranoid system of bunkrs that miraculously don't save one civilian life, as well as the accelerating burning of Jews. Maybe I would have argued a different point much better if I had in this post taken a moderate example.
Amnesty international, Human rights watch and Reporters without Borders have all criticized Hugo Chavez so its not just a big American conspiracy. And Chavez is constantly attacking the opposition demonizing them to the point that there are attacks on the opposition the 2 attacks on synagogues are a good example.
Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have also criticized the United States.
My point is that he's democratically elected and has violated no law. He isn't a saint, but he's done a hell of a lot more for his people than any of his predecessors (like cutting poverty by 1/3rd in 10 years).
The least we can do is ask that criticism of him be made in proportion - because those who are first to attack Chavez are generally the first to defend far worse things carried out in our own name.
Just because Chavez was elected doesnt mean that he cant be an authoritarian. And I dont agree that Chavez has done a lot for his country. Venezuela has one of the highest inflation rates in the region, the second highest Murder rate in the world and millions of Venezuelans live in squalor even though Chavez has helped some of the poor. Just because I disagree with most of what the U.S dose doesnt mean that I have to like Chavez. one wrong doesnt justify another.
Well, I fail to see how Chavez is more authoritarian than, say, Bush. As you say, he's democratically elected - unlike Bush, with more than 49% of the vote. And he doesn't invade. Or do waterboarding. Or extraordinary rendition.
In fact, inflation in Venezuela is still pretty high - but Chavez has lowered inflation from 40% to 12. And far fewer do "live in squalor" - poverty has been cut by 30% since 1998.
You don't have to love Chavez - but you shouldn't buy into the propaganda about him.
I think you miss understand my position im not defending Bush, I cant stand Bush. Bush was one of the worst presidents we ever had. However, this dosent excuse Chavez and the multiple Human rights reports on Him. If you go to Amnesty international website, it will give you a laundry list of violation of Chavez. And the the most recent estimates put Venezuelan inflation at 30% the highest in the region.
Wrong. You're taking the estimate for overall inflation, while inflation has actually steadily decelerated over the past half-year. That's what I mean by buying into the propaganda model.
(venezuelanalysis . com / news / 4273)
The human rights issues cited by Amnesty International, like injuries to some people during protests, which Chavez allows, might as easily be due to overzealous cops as to Chavez.
Do you remember free speech zones in America? Do you realize that cops have attacked protesters with tear gas here?
For example, during the WTO protests in Seattle? Can you show how Chavez can reasonably held personally responsible for anything cited as a human rights violation by Amnesty International?
Again, Venezuela is not a heavenly paradise.
But attacking Chavez, who's made significant progress in the country, only plays into the hands of the right wing. And supports their bias.
not only are you correct brooklyn but on the topic of civil rights there was a great article, the posted it on guerrila news but i dont no where its from originally. how the human rights record of venezuala has been dramitcally over estimated and its true figures are much lower. not only is this true but dont forget that his opposition attempted to start a revolution. so the fact that he hasnt gone ape shit like any other sane person shows something
Is there anything I said above - anything at all - that you'd like to dispute? Or are you just going to stick to ad hominems, the best and mightiest of weapons?
You take the Buddha's name in vain. Where does the Buddha say it is OK 'socialize' property? To take from one person and give to another? Where does it say you should violently expropriate the property of another? It goes totally against Buddhism.
LOL, You should learn something about the Buddha before you say such silly things. It would also help if you knew something about socialism before saying such silly things. You can't be against the expropriation of property since every bit of property that is held by someone today was stolen through war or fraud at some point in the past. I'd suggest a visit to Wikipedia or perhaps your local library to brush up on the topics you've attempted to comment on. Good luck.
LOL? That's awfully presumptious of you. Firstly, I am a Tibetan Buddhist, which expicitly says in the teachings of the first paramita - generosity 'Generosity with other people's possessions is not generosity.' The idea of property is enshrined within Buddhism. Do monks try to change the laws to MAKE people give them food? No, the ask nicely for it. Second you cn't just expropriate property because you assume that it was stolen at some point in the past.
Funny thing is did you know His Holiness the Dalia Lama is a Marxist? The idea of property is enshrined in Buddhism? Really? Give me one verse from the Pali Canon in which the Buddha expounds on the virtues of property?
Nobody needs to reallocate anything. Again, if you took a few minutes of your time to learn about these things you might write better comments.
I'm not being condescending, I'm simply pointing out that you have to learn more if you want to engage in this debate.
The Dalai Lama isn't a Marxist he's a politician. He just says that to win over the Chinese people. He also says openly that he doesn't understand economics very well.
And I'm not talking about the Pali Canon, I'm talking about Je Gampopa's Jeweled Ornament of Liberation from the Mahayana teachings.
And you are being condescending. I know more than enough to debate, thank you. I have spent far more than a few minutes learning about political economy.
Continued... And I have spent far more than a few minutes learning the Tibetan Mahayana teachings.
Remember that the Khymer Rouge caused an awful mess by trying to mix Hinayana Buddhism with Leftist, Marxist ideas. They too were arrogant and they too didn't understand Buddhism and they too thought they had the right to use authoritarian powers against others for the greater good.
Continued... Who reallocates this property effectively? You? Some dictatorship of the proletariat? And thirdly, nowhere in Buddhism does it say that it is OK to be condescending and arrogant. Just who do you think you are?
wait, there's a fundamental flaw here. Venezuala is not a socialist country, it's called Bolivarianism. tampoco los estados como Cuba o China per sin embargo, es diferent.
No, it's a form of socialism, much like Maoism is a form of communism, and not a representative of the ideology as a whole.
You mentioned Cuba and China, both of which are undemocratic one party authoritarian states, with the latter having abandoned a communist economic model, and both abandoning the communist ideology model.
Venezuela for all its flaws, is the closest the current day world has to the far left.
you're right I agree, sorry I didn't realize the last part was in spanish when I wrote it, I was saying that Cuba and China are not socialist countries, you've listed the reasons already.
I do infact support much of what Hugo Chavez is doing in Venezuela, especially the worker run factories, but he has focussed a lot of rhetoric in the past on seperating himself from socialism.
I entirely agree with what you've said though, to argue would be pure semantics.
ok did the research prior to 2005 chavez distanced himself from socialism, he started making the rhetorical change after that, I feel very out of date.
No problem; as I didn't understand the Spanish, I jumped to conclusions.
I'm in agreement with your qualms. His bible bashing tendencies make my eyebrows raise, he did reckon Jesus was the first socialist, after all.
I know it's very typical of Marxists to criticise a good thing, but whilst Venezuela has made some fine progress, after two terms of the same supposed communist government, more should have been achieved by now. It's safe to say the state won't be dissembled anytime soon.
Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, called the expulsion "further evidence of Venezuela's descent into intolerance."
"Chavez may have kicked out the messenger, but he has only reinforced the message - civil liberties in Venezuela are under attack," Roth said in a statement Friday
Depends. The middle and lower class love Chavez. The rich, powerful elite absolutely hate him. But let's look at history and the alternative. Had the elites been successful, an elite dictator would have taken power, US access to Venezuela's resources would have been allowed, and the poor and middle class would have either been subject to slave labor like China and India now, or destitution, past and present, like Nicaragua, Iran, Iraq, Honduras, Panama, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, etc.
Socialism and Communism are inevitable. There are too few controlling the majority. That is not democracy. Communism is true freedom... if we could only realize that, and look to the future, instead of past dictatorships.
hey asshole did u learn anything from this vid? or bother to read any of the links? either u don't care about the FACTS, or your just another ignorant, narrow minded, dumb fucking sorry ass hannity/limbaugh/o'reilly fan
This video presents anything but facts and even BG has silently admitted this. He tried to counter legitimate news sources with government run fluff pieces and then when he was taken toi task he sulks away.
Flockofgoat, you have been making a decent, if not ignorant argument, but "a tool like noam chomsky?" now you're just letting your hard-headedness make you look like a fool. who are you to call noam chomsky a tool? have you ever actually read any of his work? or are you just regurgitating what your psuedo-intellectual internet buddies are saying? agree or disagree, to call chomsky a "tool" is like dancing drunk on the top of this pillar you've hoisted yourself onto. "childish and naive" indeed
I read his argument defending the Khmer Rouge and the back tracking he did afterwards. I get the gist of what he's talking about and I can't help but disagree with the man.
He didn't defend the Khmer Rouge. He pointed out that Khmer Rouge's atrocities were being inflated and covered every night while atrocities by US client states were never afforded any time in the media.
what are you calling legitimate news? cnn? fox? msnbc? that's bullshit and can easily be refuted. in fact, they do it themselves. they prove to each other how full of shit they are everyday.
Well I was thinking more along the lines of AP, Reuters, BBC and occasionally ITAR-Tass. Of course I have yet to here anyone refute these news groups with anything other than State sponsored media. So if you trust authoritarian state controlled media I understand why you wouldn't like a free press.
Hey BG I notice that Cuba is STILL not permitting open dissent against the government there. Any comment on that? Care to revise you position? Maybe rethink some of the ignorant statements you've made here?
Anything to say at all?...hmmm? No word yet. Perhaps it takes a while to eat crow.
Why not point at Denmark and their republishing of the Muslim cartoon? Or any of the Scandinavian countries? They have a higher standard of living then the USA does, i.e. they work less hours, they have higher incomes, they have more personal savings, they travel more, they take more vacations, they have more disposable income, they have a more free press, less people in prison. Norway has nationalized oil just like Venezuela but you will never see them mentioned, because it works.
Denmark also has about a tenth the population the U.S. has, with a more homogenized populace and declining birth ratios, meaning Danes aren't having children ergo they can spend more money on themselves
good point about denmark flock, but you're missing the point that that's entirely because of the way the system works. here people (en masse) get pregenant at 16 and can't finish school, then can't get a good job and have to go on welfare... then they get ridiculed by people like you.. no doubt of the same cloth as those who oversex the kids int he first place. responsibility and individualism are the LAST things taught in america... first things yakked about by the blind and misguided
I don't know what part of America you live in but where I'm from personal responsibility and individualism are ingrained into the community. I also know a teen couple that were able to stay off welfare and finish college, so it can be done.
There's a difference between a "coup" and public "dissent". Dissent is NOT allowed in Venezuela. I have many friends there. Venezuela is a BAD example as it is true that dissent is allowed in some socialist countries. VENEZUELA is not one of them.
socialism and dissent are not incompatible, and if they are it is only because true socialism will eventually lead to the removal of the catalysts which perpetuate dissent (in a moral, proper fashion). I can't blame anyone for thinking this way; there have been horrible corruptions of the ideology in the past, and just as much scandalous muckraking and story spinning. It's a shame they can't see the truth behind the smoke and mirrors which so far seemingly all governments have installed.
Not necesarily. The video assumes too much and BG uses state run media to counter legitimate free press agencies. Anyway, did anyone notice that Venezuela has banned opposition parties recently? So much for Venezuelan dissent. Hey BG how about Cuba, or China how do those socialist nations rank in your list of socialist countries and dissent? No comment?
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fuck this!!!, this video defend the Chavez politics?? o.O, what a crap! live firts in Venezuela dude and then make your fucking opinion!!!! you now what is 44 murders per day??? change the Local History for some "ideas"???, dammit now Im angry!
im from south america. from argentina, which is not as bad as other south american countries, but its still pretty bad.
well, im telling you dude, in a country like venezuela, a dictatorship is justifiable (if you can really call chavez much of a dictator). people die in revolutions dude, especially in third world countries.
but no we don't own the airwaves, we only "own" the small portions of spacetime that we happen to occupy at the moment. I also disagree that the quality of the service should be a factor in determining whether spectrum is given, that's for the audience to decide. The last clip of him talking though was the usual politics-speak, all politicians give folksy sentimental monologues to endears themselves.
It doesn't change the fact that RCTV was targeted and taken off the air by a central authority.
why on earth would you comment on something you cleary don't understand? What could possibly drive you to make such a fool of yourself? Low self-esteem? We do own the airwaves; that's a fact. As to the "targeting" of RCTV the former owner continues to broadcast in Venezuela. You think Murdoch would fare as well here after staging a coup?doubtful.
Hey did you catch that story on the BBC regarding the way SOCIALIST Cuba is treating female dissenters and wives of political prisoners. Hey who does Hugo Chavez idolize?
well as for owning, one can only claim ownership of something is if it represents their labor, and labor as I might, I can't make new frequencies. Therefore it's just a fabric of spacetime that people in the given area worry about and no one but them has the right to say something can't be on there, but Chavez goes it his own. Plus this is just Chavez, what about china north korea and cuba?
No amount of rhetorical jockeying is going to change the fact the down was for political reasons.
Wow you are dumb!!! Venezuela isn't a socialist country at all. In a socialist country there is no private property and everything is run by the government. That often means that dissent is not allowed but that is not necessarily true. One of the reasons that people are punished for dissent though is that socialist countries are like an abusive parent, a controlling wife and a greedy employer rolled into one. Rather than whip you(wife) ground you or fire you they jail or kill you!!
BTW I just thought I should, you socialist folks are a real class act. Here's a video that claims socialism is tolerant of dissent and yet every dissenting post here has been marked negative so as to block the post from view. Really very classy.
I took your advice, and though you are correct that there we some dodgy and ignorant comments made, no one is really free from blame. Some of things awhelnaw said were ignored or dodged just as cleverly, or not. I think the lesson to be learned here is to learn as much as you can before you make false assumptions about anything. If you think somethings messed up, learn about it rather than complaining about it. Then, once you're an expert, inform others.
Wow, thank you for your honesty. I'm not sure if I entirely agree with your assessment, but I do appreciate your honesty and willingness to evaluate the situation from an open perspective. Kudos for you.
lol. That's it folks keep hitting the thumbs down. "OOH lets hide the things that scary 'fascist' is saying instead of engaging them, it might actually hurt our ideology."
I have dropped shit with more integrity than you people have.
I definitely agree that this hypocritical bs has to stop. There are fascist elements built into youtube, such as suppression of dissenting view points, even if it's only a temporary symbolic suppression. If you don't agree with it, why do it?
Furthermore, on the actual subject of the video, I don't know enough about socialist/communist ideas to make a fair assessment, but what awhelno said does make quite a bit of sense. That is, socialism is not the same as communism.
I'd also like to say that buddhagem's video (the fake laughter, overly confidence which could likely be (mis)construed as arrogance, the digital animations of "puppets") along with his response to your comments were not effective in anyway of arguing any point, for a variety of reasons, and could very easily be disregarded. However, simply because the format/attitude one uses to argue a point is quite bunk, does not mean that the point itself is bunk. It can be hard to tell the difference.
Good point. So Do you think the western media is unfair to a guy like Hugo Chavez? And if so are you more inclined or less inclined to believe Venezuelan state media like Buddhagem here, does?
I generally am critical of any state media, but I am definitely aware of the demonization that goes on in this country regarding anything that is not capitalist..If our standard of friendly relations was the way they treated their people, we wouldn't be friends with half of the countries we are, as there are a good number of dictatorships that we have not only supported, but helped put in place..Furthermore, I don't know fully what goes on in venezuela, but I know our media knows just as little.
Interesting perspective. I think our media tends to be more critical of capitalists and capitalism, but that's not a bad thing to me. Our system only works when the consumer is informed and concerned.I agree with your statement regarding dictatorships too.However this vlog came about because I hold the position that socialism and dissent are incompatible.
A wise man once said to me "They're (socialism/communism) not the same...until they are." What he meant was they both strive for the same ends they just use different means to get there. So to me they are the same.
Your still dodging the issue I raised.How is it I can find 3 seperate accounts of the same event from 3 countries and you use just 1 from the country in question and that is some how more accurate?
You're a liar. You didn't find three seperate accounts at all. You found one account reported by the AP that was echoed three different times by three different entities. The fact that you don't know this or even understand it just highlights your gross ignorance of this subject. Show me how any of the stories you mention adds anything to the original AP story.
Oh and Einstein any information about the event is going to have to originate from the place it happened.
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So by your logic anything xinhau prints about Tibet should be taken at face value, anything State controlled media in DPRK reports is the truth and anything eminating from Iranian State television is fair and balanced. Yeah and I'm the one with a closed mind,right?Get real Moby
Moby, you are a fucking hypocrit.Just like every other dyed in the wool, anarcho-dorkist I've ever met.Maybe it's time to open up youyr own mind and begin that education you so desperately need.
I didn't follow the beginning of this thread, nor do I have a desire to based on it's evident degradation, but I find it comical that you are asking an anarchist to open his mind. That's almost as funny as a "leading anarchist". Contrary to what some believe, disagreement does not equal an uneducated individual...rather, it demonstrates a healthy community of discussion that will eventually lead to a better understanding of the reasoning behind a certain view. Unless that is, you suppress it.
Oh I couldn't agree with you more, paper. But it might be of interest to you to see just how this little shin-dig degraded into the asshat fest it has become. In my defense I did try to approach this with civility in the begining.But some people just aren't interested in that.
Excellent vid(as always) Buddhagem. But I'm afraid that you're wasting your time with this character. He fits the model of a submissive authoritarian personality that will only listen to sources that reinforce his views. Read John Dean's "Conservatives Without Conscience" and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Thanks brother. I have no doubt about the character in question. He's making a real ass out of himself here in the comment thread. But I thought it was a good opportunity to tackle some of the misinformation that we get about Chavez and Venezuela. So the video is really about a much bigger issue than any particular You Tube user. Thanks for the book recommendation.
Hey what can I say;) Being an ass is subjective, one first has to assume. All of this is personal perception anyways. In reality we could be arguing about which strain of corn is better suited to remain in feces. I'd let you win that one.
Sorry kid but I still have some valid points made that you have yet to address. So hope to it Moby. I'm sure venezuelanalysis has another article you can reference
socialism by definition, incorporates complete social permissiveness and almost no economic permissiveness (namely more rule by the majority) just the fact that people try to argue that you can't dissent in socialist countries (when, by definition, social permissiveness means you say what you want when you want about who you want) shows how misinformed they are.
A rose by any other name I suppose. It doesn't matter what the socialist theologians say socialism is. It's when it is put into practice that matters. And everytime without exception it's led to a less free society.
Socialist theologians? try standard definition. If something is considered socialist and it doesn't fit the DEFINITION of socialism it isn't socialism, it doesn't matter how many people say it does.thats called argumentum ad populum or appeal to the masses which means just b/c everyone thinks something is right doesn't mean it is.but which societies are you referring too? i presume not the scandinavian countries bc theyre the closest thing to socialism on the planet and they're the freest.
To a non-subscriber to you brand of religio-politics it all leads to the same place. Reliance on government/state entities and policies rather than reliance on self.
man...what an intellectually bankrupt comment, no evidence, no substance, pure opinion...think outside of the debate america puts infront of you and you'll quickly realize we're not #1 in hardly anything anymore..infant mortality, per capita income, class mobility, health...you name it we're not #1 in it..but don't take my word for it read about this for yourself...but for your sake, seriously, just don't kneejerk respond without factual analysis you just look silly when you do that
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Oh I've heard the arguments, and I'm in no way satisfied with our nations current state.But I hardly think the answer to our problems is SOCIALISM.I also find it intellectually disingenuine to compare America to european systems.We are so far removed ethnically and culturally from those nations. But like I said, if that's the kind of country you want to live in,well...
i don't think the answer is necessarily socialism either...the first step should be for this liberal democracy to start acting like a liberal democracy, namely redress the grievances and inequities of the free market capitalist system so universal healthcare education, daycare & insurance for starters...then we see from there.
wow, i just found out i actually have that exact book you mentioned, and it's not in there, nor any of the 20+ online editions i've searched. you're a liar;)
LOL, what a riot. He makes up a word and then he pretends it's a "real word." What a hoot. How much embarrassment can I this guy take? It's very "disingenuine" of him to act as though he doesn't mind being a fool. LOL He's a funny one. I figured when you called him on the fake word that would be the end of it. He just had to dig the hole a little deeper. Good stuff.
LOL Is that what I've reduced your brilliant argument down to? Whether or not disingenuine is a word or not?Well obviously it must be since you knew the point I was getting at.Of course I made some more direct points about the video that you still have not addressed.
Take a course in logic, kid. You said "no socialist country allows dissent." I already proved you wrong on that count which is evident by your need to bring up other examples. You should be more careful in the stupid things you say.
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Ha!You proved nothing.Not a goddamn thing. You used ONE news source of questionable bias claim that this trumps all other accounts of what happened. You used one fucking example and it took me 5 minutes to pick that apart.
You are the only person making uneducated claims here. I'm just getting warmed up.
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Not only did you not prove that socialist countries allow dissent. You left gapping holes in your argument. Such as, well if Chavez didn't prosecute the oppositions TV station, why revoke their license? Why does Cuba not have a dissenting voice for it's citizens. Why does Laos still imprison political activists? Should I keep naming countries?
I definitely agree, they have done a lot to bring their country forward, that is good. However, they still perform public executions, torture prisoners, dump toxic waste in unprotected natural habitats. They have been so brainwashed for 2000 years by that nationalist crap about China being the land of the Son of Heaven, that when the smallest comment is made about the government they have no idea how to react in a civilized manner, lying, beating, killing. They are tyrants, but all do fall.
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4 articles from venezuelanalysis.
I suppose they are the Fair and Balanced news site of latin America,right(laff track)? I mean I at least offered up some diversity to the coverage. But I'm supposed to take one site as gospel re Chavez.Yeah I'm obviously the underinformed one.
Well if you checked the link I have unedited video of the event that clearly shows anti-Chavez assholes acting like the thugs they are. Care to dispute that? Care to explain that away?
Yeah I do question that source too. IOn fact every source you list is in some way connected to the Venezuelan government. So either you are a total fool, or we have different definitions of fair an impartial.
I appreciate that you stuck you neck out, but you lost your ass on this one, bud.
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Oh christ. Have you ever been to Venezuela? Because I have. And besides Venezuela is just one example. I never even touched on the ways dissent is repressed in other countries like say DPRK, Vietnam, PRC, Soviet Russia. Is the media spinning this too?You're what is know as an ideologue and there is no help for you.
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rofl. Duck, dodge, roll and spin. It's like I'm talking to a Madrassa student. Obviously you believe in your core that you are right and I have no intention of shaking you belief structure, but you're wrong. You don't need to admit it, but you are. At least you don't have to worry about being shot at by Bush-bots.
What am I dodging? Your statement that dissent is not allowed in Socialist countries is clearly false. You haven't countered a single fact that I've shown. You haven't even made a counter argument. Who's ducking and dodging?
LOL, I'm wrong. You're hilarious.
What a strong rebuttal: "You're wrong." Wish I had thought of that. Thanks for the laugh.
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It is not false. How is dissent handled in China?Oh...that's right they call in the military and shut it down. How about North Korea? Well since everyone there is clearly too happy being malnourished and worshipping Kim Il Sung there's no need for dissent. Will you listen yourself. You might as well deny the holocaust.
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Too bad it couldn't help you. Notice the issues I've raised with my posts? Then notice you dodging the points in your responses. It seems the only thing you can come back with when I raise a relavent point is that I'm ignorant or I need an education. Do you mean I need to be brainwashed to your way of thinking?
It's sad to see you wasting a perfectly good mind by keeping it closed to reality. Just in this video alone I show clips of news coverage from Venezuela where they are calling Hugo Chavez the most horrible things and yet you continue to spout your nonsense. I seriously doubt you could even define socialism. And your cowardice to even create a video defending your ridiculous notions is just further proof of the emptiness of your beliefs. Consider yourself PAWNED! Now go back under your rock, kid.
First off it's "PWND". And secondly you did none of that.Least of all to me. All you did was regurgitate Venezuelan STATE media. Hell, if I wanted to make the Chinese look good on Tibet all I'd have to do is quote Xinhua, too.
Well said Buddhagem.
Doniedaff 1 year ago
I don't like how Chavez has imposed a total gun ownership ban myself, I find that very draconian. And crime rates apparently have gone up since it happened rather than down.
highervis 1 year ago
I also don't like how he had a mass, presumably mandatory vaccination program. A lot of research has been done calling the safety and effectiveness of vaccines into question. Vaccines are also a big part of the pharmaceutical industry.
highervis 1 year ago
Baldie is a moron or a deluded liar....and we are supposed to trust your idiotic ass. eat me you dick
chefoblues 2 years ago
Chavez started a coup in 1992. How is he any better? You are a puppet of the communist machine.
jgrove2000 2 years ago
Well said! Yet buddhagem chooses to live in the most capitalist country on earth! LOL.
leeason1 2 years ago
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medicatedsaint 2 years ago
As im a communist, i dont really care if socialist governments does not allow dissent.. Whats that to me?, unimportant. I agree with their pro-humanitarian policies anyway, so im good.
..
And yes i do realize the irony in being so egoistic and being a communist lol.
Gufberg 2 years ago
How can one argue that a government has "pro-humanitarian" policies and also argue that it isn't important if it allows dissent?
Isn't freedom a basic humanitarian goal?
TasinAkiwo 2 years ago
You got me, that post of mine - which i do not remember, but is obviously posted by me - is much of an oxymoron.
However i cannot really come to think of any real socialist nation, that does not allow dissent. Cuba does, Venezuela does, Bolivia does, Belarus does, and spain (more social democratic) does.
Gufberg 2 years ago
K. Well I'm glad that we didn't have to argue over that point =)
TasinAkiwo 2 years ago
The socialist party of spain has the same socialist value as a turd hangin' from the ceiling
And, no, i don't know where that metaphore came from.
malonemalo 2 years ago
and if the 2002's coup was illegal, was chavez did in 92 was legal? and who said coups are supposed to be legal, lol, you are so naive.
Also, where do you live? America? isnt america capitalist? Move to a communist country like venezuela and then we'll talk.
blackcokc 2 years ago
you havent lived in venezuela, and u dont even speak spanish, so you cant say shit about my country. You dont know reality, go to cuba, north korea or iran and then give your opinion.
Ask cuban if they have freedom of speech, or ask north korean if they can criticize their government.
Dissent is alowed in venezuela because oposition is fighting for it, if it was up to chavez, he would close down all of the oposition's tv station and radios, follow the news and then talk.
blackcokc 2 years ago
yo gringo, if you study history you will know that chavez try to do a coup against carlos andres in 92 and we was set free when he should have been put to dead. Second, if you study latin american history, you will see that any president that tries to make a coup, ends up being a dictator.
So, study yourself, worry yourself about gringland's crisis and stop getting in someones' else business.
blackcokc 2 years ago
Socialist countries, like leberal democratic countries do permit dissent but dissent within socialists or capitalists respectively on how to proceed with socialism or capitalism respectively.
Far left groups exist in liberal democratic countries and are allowed to spread their ideas but wait till the left turn their ideas into reality and overthrow the capitalist system and you will soon see how far the capitalist will tolerate dissent.
Chavez did the right thing to defend socialism.
flightofthecondor 2 years ago
buddhagem, why do u support a bourgeois politician like Chavez?
Rockerboy2007 2 years ago
I don't support Chavez. This video was made in the context of a guy categorically claiming that no socialist country allows dissent. I could have used lots of different examples but it just so happened this was fresh in my memory at the time. Also, while I don't support him, I don't fall into the blind demonization of him that is so prevalent in the West. I have problems with him but Venezuela and Bolivia are doing some remarkable things. I'm more interested in what the people are doing than...
buddhagem 2 years ago
They still don't allow for dissent, so if you have other examples maybe you could give them. I know! Do a video on Tiennamin Square! Another thing Chavez is fond of is political persecution, I just read about a chap who is in exile in Peru over this. You think starving the population and limiting their potential is remarkable? You're daft.
flockofgoat 2 years ago
i hope you know Mao's China is more of a fascist country than a socialist/communist country.
RATMagainstbush8 2 years ago
Fascism is a type of socialism.
VanDoodah 2 years ago
fascism is a type of corporatism aka extreme capitalism.
RATMagainstbush8 2 years ago
@RATMagainstbush8 it's the other way around: corporatism is a form of fascism (the only other form, luckily, only being theoretical so far, being used as a pejorative to describe the calculated likely effects of the implementation of anarcho-capitalism -- namely corporatocracy).
eboyd32 1 year ago
well lets look at how obama would react bassed on hitlers reaction he will probbly start suicide the army will try to liberate us from the horendous dictaotrship, probably fail and their will be a paranoid system of bunkrs that miraculously don't save one civilian life, as well as the accelerating burning of Jews. Maybe I would have argued a different point much better if I had in this post taken a moderate example.
lionessimba 2 years ago
Wow, you thought of one example! Great job! Long live socialism!!
bbpro 2 years ago
Amnesty international, Human rights watch and Reporters without Borders have all criticized Hugo Chavez so its not just a big American conspiracy. And Chavez is constantly attacking the opposition demonizing them to the point that there are attacks on the opposition the 2 attacks on synagogues are a good example.
gonader2008 3 years ago
Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have also criticized the United States.
My point is that he's democratically elected and has violated no law. He isn't a saint, but he's done a hell of a lot more for his people than any of his predecessors (like cutting poverty by 1/3rd in 10 years).
The least we can do is ask that criticism of him be made in proportion - because those who are first to attack Chavez are generally the first to defend far worse things carried out in our own name.
inbrooklyn2008 3 years ago
Just because Chavez was elected doesnt mean that he cant be an authoritarian. And I dont agree that Chavez has done a lot for his country. Venezuela has one of the highest inflation rates in the region, the second highest Murder rate in the world and millions of Venezuelans live in squalor even though Chavez has helped some of the poor. Just because I disagree with most of what the U.S dose doesnt mean that I have to like Chavez. one wrong doesnt justify another.
gonader2008 3 years ago
Well, I fail to see how Chavez is more authoritarian than, say, Bush. As you say, he's democratically elected - unlike Bush, with more than 49% of the vote. And he doesn't invade. Or do waterboarding. Or extraordinary rendition.
In fact, inflation in Venezuela is still pretty high - but Chavez has lowered inflation from 40% to 12. And far fewer do "live in squalor" - poverty has been cut by 30% since 1998.
You don't have to love Chavez - but you shouldn't buy into the propaganda about him.
inbrooklyn2008 3 years ago
I think you miss understand my position im not defending Bush, I cant stand Bush. Bush was one of the worst presidents we ever had. However, this dosent excuse Chavez and the multiple Human rights reports on Him. If you go to Amnesty international website, it will give you a laundry list of violation of Chavez. And the the most recent estimates put Venezuelan inflation at 30% the highest in the region.
gonader2008 3 years ago
Wrong. You're taking the estimate for overall inflation, while inflation has actually steadily decelerated over the past half-year. That's what I mean by buying into the propaganda model.
(venezuelanalysis . com / news / 4273)
The human rights issues cited by Amnesty International, like injuries to some people during protests, which Chavez allows, might as easily be due to overzealous cops as to Chavez.
inbrooklyn2008 3 years ago
Do you remember free speech zones in America? Do you realize that cops have attacked protesters with tear gas here?
For example, during the WTO protests in Seattle? Can you show how Chavez can reasonably held personally responsible for anything cited as a human rights violation by Amnesty International?
Again, Venezuela is not a heavenly paradise.
But attacking Chavez, who's made significant progress in the country, only plays into the hands of the right wing. And supports their bias.
inbrooklyn2008 3 years ago
Again, Venezuelans have chosen Chavez by historically overwhelming margins in elections deemed fair according to George Bush's State Department.
Certainly they're finding something to like about the man...
inbrooklyn2008 3 years ago
not only are you correct brooklyn but on the topic of civil rights there was a great article, the posted it on guerrila news but i dont no where its from originally. how the human rights record of venezuala has been dramitcally over estimated and its true figures are much lower. not only is this true but dont forget that his opposition attempted to start a revolution. so the fact that he hasnt gone ape shit like any other sane person shows something
prjctcivilian 2 years ago
Still if nothing was done in punishment to those cops it's a a strike on Chavez's cred
highervis 1 year ago
Another apologia for tyranny...
DetectiveTackett 3 years ago
Venezuela's a tyranny?
Why didn't George Bush get that memo?
His state department allowed that the outcome of the elections in Venezuela was fair, DT.
inbrooklyn2008 3 years ago
You're crazy. Or evil.
Maybe both.
fiercegallantry 3 years ago
Is there anything I said above - anything at all - that you'd like to dispute? Or are you just going to stick to ad hominems, the best and mightiest of weapons?
Brainwashed much?
inbrooklyn2008 3 years ago
Go ahead, I'd love to hear you out.
inbrooklyn2008 3 years ago
You take the Buddha's name in vain. Where does the Buddha say it is OK 'socialize' property? To take from one person and give to another? Where does it say you should violently expropriate the property of another? It goes totally against Buddhism.
podrag 3 years ago
LOL, You should learn something about the Buddha before you say such silly things. It would also help if you knew something about socialism before saying such silly things. You can't be against the expropriation of property since every bit of property that is held by someone today was stolen through war or fraud at some point in the past. I'd suggest a visit to Wikipedia or perhaps your local library to brush up on the topics you've attempted to comment on. Good luck.
buddhagem 3 years ago
LOL? That's awfully presumptious of you. Firstly, I am a Tibetan Buddhist, which expicitly says in the teachings of the first paramita - generosity 'Generosity with other people's possessions is not generosity.' The idea of property is enshrined within Buddhism. Do monks try to change the laws to MAKE people give them food? No, the ask nicely for it. Second you cn't just expropriate property because you assume that it was stolen at some point in the past.
podrag 3 years ago
Funny thing is did you know His Holiness the Dalia Lama is a Marxist? The idea of property is enshrined in Buddhism? Really? Give me one verse from the Pali Canon in which the Buddha expounds on the virtues of property?
Nobody needs to reallocate anything. Again, if you took a few minutes of your time to learn about these things you might write better comments.
I'm not being condescending, I'm simply pointing out that you have to learn more if you want to engage in this debate.
buddhagem 3 years ago
The Dalai Lama isn't a Marxist he's a politician. He just says that to win over the Chinese people. He also says openly that he doesn't understand economics very well.
And I'm not talking about the Pali Canon, I'm talking about Je Gampopa's Jeweled Ornament of Liberation from the Mahayana teachings.
And you are being condescending. I know more than enough to debate, thank you. I have spent far more than a few minutes learning about political economy.
podrag 3 years ago
Continued... And I have spent far more than a few minutes learning the Tibetan Mahayana teachings.
Remember that the Khymer Rouge caused an awful mess by trying to mix Hinayana Buddhism with Leftist, Marxist ideas. They too were arrogant and they too didn't understand Buddhism and they too thought they had the right to use authoritarian powers against others for the greater good.
podrag 3 years ago
Continued... Who reallocates this property effectively? You? Some dictatorship of the proletariat? And thirdly, nowhere in Buddhism does it say that it is OK to be condescending and arrogant. Just who do you think you are?
podrag 3 years ago
So you are a Nazi but you support the black fucking panthers...real smart get a fucking life stupid.
lamarridley2 3 years ago
wait, there's a fundamental flaw here. Venezuala is not a socialist country, it's called Bolivarianism. tampoco los estados como Cuba o China per sin embargo, es diferent.
McOath 3 years ago
No, it's a form of socialism, much like Maoism is a form of communism, and not a representative of the ideology as a whole.
You mentioned Cuba and China, both of which are undemocratic one party authoritarian states, with the latter having abandoned a communist economic model, and both abandoning the communist ideology model.
Venezuela for all its flaws, is the closest the current day world has to the far left.
duffers 3 years ago
you're right I agree, sorry I didn't realize the last part was in spanish when I wrote it, I was saying that Cuba and China are not socialist countries, you've listed the reasons already.
I do infact support much of what Hugo Chavez is doing in Venezuela, especially the worker run factories, but he has focussed a lot of rhetoric in the past on seperating himself from socialism.
I entirely agree with what you've said though, to argue would be pure semantics.
McOath 3 years ago
ok did the research prior to 2005 chavez distanced himself from socialism, he started making the rhetorical change after that, I feel very out of date.
McOath 3 years ago
No problem; as I didn't understand the Spanish, I jumped to conclusions.
I'm in agreement with your qualms. His bible bashing tendencies make my eyebrows raise, he did reckon Jesus was the first socialist, after all.
I know it's very typical of Marxists to criticise a good thing, but whilst Venezuela has made some fine progress, after two terms of the same supposed communist government, more should have been achieved by now. It's safe to say the state won't be dissembled anytime soon.
duffers 3 years ago
Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, called the expulsion "further evidence of Venezuela's descent into intolerance."
"Chavez may have kicked out the messenger, but he has only reinforced the message - civil liberties in Venezuela are under attack," Roth said in a statement Friday
That's gotta be pretty embarassing for Buddagem
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Depends. The middle and lower class love Chavez. The rich, powerful elite absolutely hate him. But let's look at history and the alternative. Had the elites been successful, an elite dictator would have taken power, US access to Venezuela's resources would have been allowed, and the poor and middle class would have either been subject to slave labor like China and India now, or destitution, past and present, like Nicaragua, Iran, Iraq, Honduras, Panama, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, etc.
thomasst2 3 years ago
Chavez 09!!!!!!!!
eternalfootman13 3 years ago
Venezuela is a much more of a democracy than the United States.
eternalfootman13 3 years ago 3
Socialism and Communism are inevitable. There are too few controlling the majority. That is not democracy. Communism is true freedom... if we could only realize that, and look to the future, instead of past dictatorships.
sharkygunsel 3 years ago 6
I can't wait for socialism to take over so that I can be as lazy as possible and still have a good life.
What are you going to do about?
cube11235 3 years ago
the leftist movement of youtube is going weak:(
seigneurvoland666 3 years ago
Venezuela = Zimbabwe = Saddam-era Iraq
StoogeWatcher 3 years ago
StoogeWatcher= propagandist= a tool
SpeedyOJ 3 years ago 4
Prove me wrong, librat. Can you say anything anti-Chavez in Caracas? Are you allowed to be anti-Mugabe in Harare?
StoogeWatcher 3 years ago
hey asshole did u learn anything from this vid? or bother to read any of the links? either u don't care about the FACTS, or your just another ignorant, narrow minded, dumb fucking sorry ass hannity/limbaugh/o'reilly fan
SpeedyOJ 3 years ago 2
This video presents anything but facts and even BG has silently admitted this. He tried to counter legitimate news sources with government run fluff pieces and then when he was taken toi task he sulks away.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
"any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the u.s. media" -noam chomksy
SpeedyOJ 3 years ago 5
One man's opinion is meaningless especially, if that one man is a tool like Noam Chomsky.
Free press still trumps state media any day of the week.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Flockofgoat, you have been making a decent, if not ignorant argument, but "a tool like noam chomsky?" now you're just letting your hard-headedness make you look like a fool. who are you to call noam chomsky a tool? have you ever actually read any of his work? or are you just regurgitating what your psuedo-intellectual internet buddies are saying? agree or disagree, to call chomsky a "tool" is like dancing drunk on the top of this pillar you've hoisted yourself onto. "childish and naive" indeed
sharkygunsel 3 years ago
I read his argument defending the Khmer Rouge and the back tracking he did afterwards. I get the gist of what he's talking about and I can't help but disagree with the man.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
He didn't defend the Khmer Rouge. He pointed out that Khmer Rouge's atrocities were being inflated and covered every night while atrocities by US client states were never afforded any time in the media.
R3DF4C710N 3 years ago
what are you calling legitimate news? cnn? fox? msnbc? that's bullshit and can easily be refuted. in fact, they do it themselves. they prove to each other how full of shit they are everyday.
ultimategoobah 3 years ago
Well I was thinking more along the lines of AP, Reuters, BBC and occasionally ITAR-Tass. Of course I have yet to here anyone refute these news groups with anything other than State sponsored media. So if you trust authoritarian state controlled media I understand why you wouldn't like a free press.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Hey BG I notice that Cuba is STILL not permitting open dissent against the government there. Any comment on that? Care to revise you position? Maybe rethink some of the ignorant statements you've made here?
Anything to say at all?...hmmm? No word yet. Perhaps it takes a while to eat crow.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Why not point at Denmark and their republishing of the Muslim cartoon? Or any of the Scandinavian countries? They have a higher standard of living then the USA does, i.e. they work less hours, they have higher incomes, they have more personal savings, they travel more, they take more vacations, they have more disposable income, they have a more free press, less people in prison. Norway has nationalized oil just like Venezuela but you will never see them mentioned, because it works.
erkd1 3 years ago
Denmark also has about a tenth the population the U.S. has, with a more homogenized populace and declining birth ratios, meaning Danes aren't having children ergo they can spend more money on themselves
flockofgoat 3 years ago
good point about denmark flock, but you're missing the point that that's entirely because of the way the system works. here people (en masse) get pregenant at 16 and can't finish school, then can't get a good job and have to go on welfare... then they get ridiculed by people like you.. no doubt of the same cloth as those who oversex the kids int he first place. responsibility and individualism are the LAST things taught in america... first things yakked about by the blind and misguided
sharkygunsel 3 years ago
I don't know what part of America you live in but where I'm from personal responsibility and individualism are ingrained into the community. I also know a teen couple that were able to stay off welfare and finish college, so it can be done.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
There's a difference between a "coup" and public "dissent". Dissent is NOT allowed in Venezuela. I have many friends there. Venezuela is a BAD example as it is true that dissent is allowed in some socialist countries. VENEZUELA is not one of them.
CafeNetAmerica 3 years ago
Hey FYI BTW dissent is still not permitted in socialist countries. Just thought I'd remind BG in case he forgot.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Really. Is that why anyone who opposes Chavez get jailed?
StoogeWatcher 3 years ago
Uh..yes. They do. Hence why dissent and socialism are incompatible.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
socialism and dissent are not incompatible, and if they are it is only because true socialism will eventually lead to the removal of the catalysts which perpetuate dissent (in a moral, proper fashion). I can't blame anyone for thinking this way; there have been horrible corruptions of the ideology in the past, and just as much scandalous muckraking and story spinning. It's a shame they can't see the truth behind the smoke and mirrors which so far seemingly all governments have installed.
sharkygunsel 3 years ago
Why are there so many dissidents locked up in Cuba, Vietnam and China? Why was there a Gulag archipeligo?
Why does Hugo Chavez have a revolving door of yes men?
flockofgoat 3 years ago
really? where did you here that? george bush? yeah he has lost a bit of credibility recently.
this video has a great point, had this same senario occured in the united states the people involved would be executed.
somethingtrulyclever 3 years ago
Not necesarily. The video assumes too much and BG uses state run media to counter legitimate free press agencies. Anyway, did anyone notice that Venezuela has banned opposition parties recently? So much for Venezuelan dissent. Hey BG how about Cuba, or China how do those socialist nations rank in your list of socialist countries and dissent? No comment?
flockofgoat 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
fuck this!!!, this video defend the Chavez politics?? o.O, what a crap! live firts in Venezuela dude and then make your fucking opinion!!!! you now what is 44 murders per day??? change the Local History for some "ideas"???, dammit now Im angry!
Broodario 3 years ago
broodario:
im from south america. from argentina, which is not as bad as other south american countries, but its still pretty bad.
well, im telling you dude, in a country like venezuela, a dictatorship is justifiable (if you can really call chavez much of a dictator). people die in revolutions dude, especially in third world countries.
there are bound to be more revolutions still.
god0fmusic 3 years ago 3
but no we don't own the airwaves, we only "own" the small portions of spacetime that we happen to occupy at the moment. I also disagree that the quality of the service should be a factor in determining whether spectrum is given, that's for the audience to decide. The last clip of him talking though was the usual politics-speak, all politicians give folksy sentimental monologues to endears themselves.
It doesn't change the fact that RCTV was targeted and taken off the air by a central authority.
mutulus 3 years ago
why on earth would you comment on something you cleary don't understand? What could possibly drive you to make such a fool of yourself? Low self-esteem? We do own the airwaves; that's a fact. As to the "targeting" of RCTV the former owner continues to broadcast in Venezuela. You think Murdoch would fare as well here after staging a coup?doubtful.
buddhagem 3 years ago
Hey did you catch that story on the BBC regarding the way SOCIALIST Cuba is treating female dissenters and wives of political prisoners. Hey who does Hugo Chavez idolize?
I know it starts with a C.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
You got nuthin' sucka! lol pwnd on your own vlog. I'm sure that's gotta be embarassing.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
You can idolize someone without agreeing to EVERYTHING they do. That would be simply childish.
destructicon500 3 years ago 2
Idolizing politicians is childish and naive.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
well as for owning, one can only claim ownership of something is if it represents their labor, and labor as I might, I can't make new frequencies. Therefore it's just a fabric of spacetime that people in the given area worry about and no one but them has the right to say something can't be on there, but Chavez goes it his own. Plus this is just Chavez, what about china north korea and cuba?
No amount of rhetorical jockeying is going to change the fact the down was for political reasons.
mutulus 3 years ago
not to nitpick but you might want to lower the audio levels of the laughter stocks, it kind of obscures what you're saying at the time.
mutulus 3 years ago
It wasn't important anyways :)
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Wow you are dumb!!! Venezuela isn't a socialist country at all. In a socialist country there is no private property and everything is run by the government. That often means that dissent is not allowed but that is not necessarily true. One of the reasons that people are punished for dissent though is that socialist countries are like an abusive parent, a controlling wife and a greedy employer rolled into one. Rather than whip you(wife) ground you or fire you they jail or kill you!!
GenitalGrinder69 3 years ago
BTW I just thought I should, you socialist folks are a real class act. Here's a video that claims socialism is tolerant of dissent and yet every dissenting post here has been marked negative so as to block the post from view. Really very classy.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
I took your advice, and though you are correct that there we some dodgy and ignorant comments made, no one is really free from blame. Some of things awhelnaw said were ignored or dodged just as cleverly, or not. I think the lesson to be learned here is to learn as much as you can before you make false assumptions about anything. If you think somethings messed up, learn about it rather than complaining about it. Then, once you're an expert, inform others.
PaperCalypSo 3 years ago
Wow, thank you for your honesty. I'm not sure if I entirely agree with your assessment, but I do appreciate your honesty and willingness to evaluate the situation from an open perspective. Kudos for you.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
lol. That's it folks keep hitting the thumbs down. "OOH lets hide the things that scary 'fascist' is saying instead of engaging them, it might actually hurt our ideology."
I have dropped shit with more integrity than you people have.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
I definitely agree that this hypocritical bs has to stop. There are fascist elements built into youtube, such as suppression of dissenting view points, even if it's only a temporary symbolic suppression. If you don't agree with it, why do it?
Furthermore, on the actual subject of the video, I don't know enough about socialist/communist ideas to make a fair assessment, but what awhelno said does make quite a bit of sense. That is, socialism is not the same as communism.
PaperCalypSo 3 years ago
I'd also like to say that buddhagem's video (the fake laughter, overly confidence which could likely be (mis)construed as arrogance, the digital animations of "puppets") along with his response to your comments were not effective in anyway of arguing any point, for a variety of reasons, and could very easily be disregarded. However, simply because the format/attitude one uses to argue a point is quite bunk, does not mean that the point itself is bunk. It can be hard to tell the difference.
PaperCalypSo 3 years ago
Good point. So Do you think the western media is unfair to a guy like Hugo Chavez? And if so are you more inclined or less inclined to believe Venezuelan state media like Buddhagem here, does?
flockofgoat 3 years ago
I generally am critical of any state media, but I am definitely aware of the demonization that goes on in this country regarding anything that is not capitalist..If our standard of friendly relations was the way they treated their people, we wouldn't be friends with half of the countries we are, as there are a good number of dictatorships that we have not only supported, but helped put in place..Furthermore, I don't know fully what goes on in venezuela, but I know our media knows just as little.
PaperCalypSo 3 years ago
Interesting perspective. I think our media tends to be more critical of capitalists and capitalism, but that's not a bad thing to me. Our system only works when the consumer is informed and concerned.I agree with your statement regarding dictatorships too.However this vlog came about because I hold the position that socialism and dissent are incompatible.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
A wise man once said to me "They're (socialism/communism) not the same...until they are." What he meant was they both strive for the same ends they just use different means to get there. So to me they are the same.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
I honestly do not know the direct difference between the two, so it really seems like more of a semantic argument to me.
PaperCalypSo 3 years ago
Add a few more negatives why don't you. You just don't get it.
PaperCalypSo 3 years ago
Your still dodging the issue I raised.How is it I can find 3 seperate accounts of the same event from 3 countries and you use just 1 from the country in question and that is some how more accurate?
flockofgoat 3 years ago
You're a liar. You didn't find three seperate accounts at all. You found one account reported by the AP that was echoed three different times by three different entities. The fact that you don't know this or even understand it just highlights your gross ignorance of this subject. Show me how any of the stories you mention adds anything to the original AP story.
Oh and Einstein any information about the event is going to have to originate from the place it happened.
You're dense.
buddhagem 3 years ago
You'd better look again.
TW has a corrospondent in Caracas.
TheNews article came from Agence France-Presse and the ABC artcle is an AP wire story...so?
I couldn't find any students with guns, just pro-chavez supporters. Maybe you can point them out.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
So by your logic anything xinhau prints about Tibet should be taken at face value, anything State controlled media in DPRK reports is the truth and anything eminating from Iranian State television is fair and balanced. Yeah and I'm the one with a closed mind,right?Get real Moby
flockofgoat 3 years ago
4 days and no answer,huh?
Moby, you are a fucking hypocrit.Just like every other dyed in the wool, anarcho-dorkist I've ever met.Maybe it's time to open up youyr own mind and begin that education you so desperately need.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
I didn't follow the beginning of this thread, nor do I have a desire to based on it's evident degradation, but I find it comical that you are asking an anarchist to open his mind. That's almost as funny as a "leading anarchist". Contrary to what some believe, disagreement does not equal an uneducated individual...rather, it demonstrates a healthy community of discussion that will eventually lead to a better understanding of the reasoning behind a certain view. Unless that is, you suppress it.
PaperCalypSo 3 years ago 2
Oh I couldn't agree with you more, paper. But it might be of interest to you to see just how this little shin-dig degraded into the asshat fest it has become. In my defense I did try to approach this with civility in the begining.But some people just aren't interested in that.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
You're cool.
keep it going!!
xx
KnightLightSight 3 years ago 2
Excellent vid(as always) Buddhagem. But I'm afraid that you're wasting your time with this character. He fits the model of a submissive authoritarian personality that will only listen to sources that reinforce his views. Read John Dean's "Conservatives Without Conscience" and you'll see what I'm talking about.
cehbeach 3 years ago 5
Thanks brother. I have no doubt about the character in question. He's making a real ass out of himself here in the comment thread. But I thought it was a good opportunity to tackle some of the misinformation that we get about Chavez and Venezuela. So the video is really about a much bigger issue than any particular You Tube user. Thanks for the book recommendation.
buddhagem 3 years ago
Hey what can I say;) Being an ass is subjective, one first has to assume. All of this is personal perception anyways. In reality we could be arguing about which strain of corn is better suited to remain in feces. I'd let you win that one.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
News alert: you lost!
buddhagem 3 years ago
Sorry kid but I still have some valid points made that you have yet to address. So hope to it Moby. I'm sure venezuelanalysis has another article you can reference
flockofgoat 3 years ago
socialism by definition, incorporates complete social permissiveness and almost no economic permissiveness (namely more rule by the majority) just the fact that people try to argue that you can't dissent in socialist countries (when, by definition, social permissiveness means you say what you want when you want about who you want) shows how misinformed they are.
awhelnaw 3 years ago 4
A rose by any other name I suppose. It doesn't matter what the socialist theologians say socialism is. It's when it is put into practice that matters. And everytime without exception it's led to a less free society.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
less free society?/ in whos eyes?
nickvanzetti 3 years ago 4
In mine. If you are unable by law to self govern your company or products are you less free or more free?
If you can't own land or it is made very difficult or costly are you less free or more free?
If you can't address grievances to your government without being shot at are you less free or more free?
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Socialist theologians? try standard definition. If something is considered socialist and it doesn't fit the DEFINITION of socialism it isn't socialism, it doesn't matter how many people say it does.thats called argumentum ad populum or appeal to the masses which means just b/c everyone thinks something is right doesn't mean it is.but which societies are you referring too? i presume not the scandinavian countries bc theyre the closest thing to socialism on the planet and they're the freest.
awhelnaw 3 years ago 4
To a non-subscriber to you brand of religio-politics it all leads to the same place. Reliance on government/state entities and policies rather than reliance on self.
But if you prefer Sweden, then by all means...
flockofgoat 3 years ago
man...what an intellectually bankrupt comment, no evidence, no substance, pure opinion...think outside of the debate america puts infront of you and you'll quickly realize we're not #1 in hardly anything anymore..infant mortality, per capita income, class mobility, health...you name it we're not #1 in it..but don't take my word for it read about this for yourself...but for your sake, seriously, just don't kneejerk respond without factual analysis you just look silly when you do that
awhelnaw 3 years ago 5
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Oh I've heard the arguments, and I'm in no way satisfied with our nations current state.But I hardly think the answer to our problems is SOCIALISM.I also find it intellectually disingenuine to compare America to european systems.We are so far removed ethnically and culturally from those nations. But like I said, if that's the kind of country you want to live in,well...
flockofgoat 3 years ago
i don't think the answer is necessarily socialism either...the first step should be for this liberal democracy to start acting like a liberal democracy, namely redress the grievances and inequities of the free market capitalist system so universal healthcare education, daycare & insurance for starters...then we see from there.
awhelnaw 3 years ago 4
i think you mean "disingenuous". there's really nothing worse than an idiot who thinks they're a genius, but at least you're entertaining:)
toesandumbrellas 3 years ago
No, I used the word in the proper context I meant, but thanks anyway. What are you, an english major?
flockofgoat 3 years ago
it's hard to use a word in the proper context when it doesn't exist - look it up
toesandumbrellas 3 years ago
Found it. Webster's new world Dictionary of the American Language, college ed. It's an adjective.
It means insincere. Anything else I can help you with? Or are you going to pull a buddahgem and stop posting, now that I've mad you look foolish.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
hmm - i've checked many other sources, and no such word to be found. wonders, wonders
toesandumbrellas 3 years ago
i didn't know "american" was a language
toesandumbrellas 3 years ago 2
wow, i just found out i actually have that exact book you mentioned, and it's not in there, nor any of the 20+ online editions i've searched. you're a liar;)
toesandumbrellas 3 years ago
LOL, what a riot. He makes up a word and then he pretends it's a "real word." What a hoot. How much embarrassment can I this guy take? It's very "disingenuine" of him to act as though he doesn't mind being a fool. LOL He's a funny one. I figured when you called him on the fake word that would be the end of it. He just had to dig the hole a little deeper. Good stuff.
buddhagem 3 years ago
LOL Is that what I've reduced your brilliant argument down to? Whether or not disingenuine is a word or not?Well obviously it must be since you knew the point I was getting at.Of course I made some more direct points about the video that you still have not addressed.
I think I understand why.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Sure you do;) Well if you really do, it's in there, Try looking under the letter I.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
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Hey Kojak, what's your spin on Tiennamen Square? Or the recent Tibet fiasco?
You know China still considers itself a socialist country right?
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Take a course in logic, kid. You said "no socialist country allows dissent." I already proved you wrong on that count which is evident by your need to bring up other examples. You should be more careful in the stupid things you say.
buddhagem 3 years ago
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Ha!You proved nothing.Not a goddamn thing. You used ONE news source of questionable bias claim that this trumps all other accounts of what happened. You used one fucking example and it took me 5 minutes to pick that apart.
You are the only person making uneducated claims here. I'm just getting warmed up.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
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Not only did you not prove that socialist countries allow dissent. You left gapping holes in your argument. Such as, well if Chavez didn't prosecute the oppositions TV station, why revoke their license? Why does Cuba not have a dissenting voice for it's citizens. Why does Laos still imprison political activists? Should I keep naming countries?
flockofgoat 3 years ago
china is communist, not socialist
awhelnaw 3 years ago
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Does the difference really matter to someone who is neither?
flockofgoat 3 years ago
China is not Communist! It is a Capitalist state run by the central government. Please don't insult Communism.
nickvanzetti 3 years ago 8
Try explaining that to Hu Jintao.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
China is a cruel capitalist country-- the worst capitalist country in the world.
westphalianprinz 3 years ago 7
I definitely agree, they have done a lot to bring their country forward, that is good. However, they still perform public executions, torture prisoners, dump toxic waste in unprotected natural habitats. They have been so brainwashed for 2000 years by that nationalist crap about China being the land of the Son of Heaven, that when the smallest comment is made about the government they have no idea how to react in a civilized manner, lying, beating, killing. They are tyrants, but all do fall.
yadsik 3 years ago 3
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4 articles from venezuelanalysis.
I suppose they are the Fair and Balanced news site of latin America,right(laff track)? I mean I at least offered up some diversity to the coverage. But I'm supposed to take one site as gospel re Chavez.Yeah I'm obviously the underinformed one.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Well if you checked the link I have unedited video of the event that clearly shows anti-Chavez assholes acting like the thugs they are. Care to dispute that? Care to explain that away?
buddhagem 3 years ago
Yeah I do question that source too. IOn fact every source you list is in some way connected to the Venezuelan government. So either you are a total fool, or we have different definitions of fair an impartial.
I appreciate that you stuck you neck out, but you lost your ass on this one, bud.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
No response, eh? Yeah,I don't blame you, Moby.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
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Oh christ. Have you ever been to Venezuela? Because I have. And besides Venezuela is just one example. I never even touched on the ways dissent is repressed in other countries like say DPRK, Vietnam, PRC, Soviet Russia. Is the media spinning this too?You're what is know as an ideologue and there is no help for you.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Sorry, the correct response was, "Oh, I stand corrected. I guess I was wrong. " But thanks for trying. I'll let Comradeunity finish your lessons.
buddhagem 3 years ago
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rofl. Duck, dodge, roll and spin. It's like I'm talking to a Madrassa student. Obviously you believe in your core that you are right and I have no intention of shaking you belief structure, but you're wrong. You don't need to admit it, but you are. At least you don't have to worry about being shot at by Bush-bots.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
What am I dodging? Your statement that dissent is not allowed in Socialist countries is clearly false. You haven't countered a single fact that I've shown. You haven't even made a counter argument. Who's ducking and dodging?
LOL, I'm wrong. You're hilarious.
What a strong rebuttal: "You're wrong." Wish I had thought of that. Thanks for the laugh.
buddhagem 3 years ago
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It is not false. How is dissent handled in China?Oh...that's right they call in the military and shut it down. How about North Korea? Well since everyone there is clearly too happy being malnourished and worshipping Kim Il Sung there's no need for dissent. Will you listen yourself. You might as well deny the holocaust.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
You should take a course in logic. It would help you.
buddhagem 3 years ago
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Too bad it couldn't help you. Notice the issues I've raised with my posts? Then notice you dodging the points in your responses. It seems the only thing you can come back with when I raise a relavent point is that I'm ignorant or I need an education. Do you mean I need to be brainwashed to your way of thinking?
flockofgoat 3 years ago
Thanks for proving my point everybody.
Yeah, I just don't think dissenting views are really tolerated by socialists, period.
But I already knew that.
flockofgoat 3 years ago
It's sad to see you wasting a perfectly good mind by keeping it closed to reality. Just in this video alone I show clips of news coverage from Venezuela where they are calling Hugo Chavez the most horrible things and yet you continue to spout your nonsense. I seriously doubt you could even define socialism. And your cowardice to even create a video defending your ridiculous notions is just further proof of the emptiness of your beliefs. Consider yourself PAWNED! Now go back under your rock, kid.
buddhagem 3 years ago
First off it's "PWND". And secondly you did none of that.Least of all to me. All you did was regurgitate Venezuelan STATE media. Hell, if I wanted to make the Chinese look good on Tibet all I'd have to do is quote Xinhua, too.
flockofgoat 3 years ago