BENEDICT XVI is A GREAT IMPOSTOR like J.P.II. On May 13, 1981 J.P.II &HIS COOPERATORS acted: J.P.II was WOUNDED! EVIDENCES on 2 PHOTOS: one in a film "Pope Assassination Attempt" by "NewsbugAZ" at 3:40 - 3:50; second in a film "Who is behind the shooting of John Paul II ?" by "romereports" at 0:14 - 0:15. There are TOO MUCH BLOOD on J.P.II's RIGHT HAND to BE ALIVE after MINUTES& NOT A BLOOD TRACE of A WOUND on HIS WHITE CLOTHES & J.P.II REMOVED HANDS despite HE should have KEPT HANDS on A WOUND!
Hitler's Pope is nothing but propaganda. Thousands upon thousands of jews thanked Pope Pius XII for his heroic acts to save them. He ordered that all monastaries be opened for the jews. Even the chuef rabbi converted to catholicism and took the name "Eugenio" because of his bravery. All this bullcrap about "Hitler's Pope" is nothing but made up facts and lies used in hopes of attacking the church because of it's stances on abortion, marrige, contraception, and other teachings on morality.
More anti Pius XII comments... Pius XII was not as he is portrayed to be, he was seen as a hero for a long time until the 1960's when a film based totally on fictitious inventions portrayed the Pope as a cold man, and it wasn't even a jew who invented the film but a German, the Jews loved the Pope for his help, in fact the Chief Rabbi of Rome converted and took the name 'Eugenio' in honour of Pope Pius XII.
Funny fiction. There never was a kidnapping plan, the pope was silent most of the time, why should Hitler take a pope refuge, who was on his side? Also we have nearly all data from 1939 till 1945 under enclosure concerning the vatican. It's clear, that this data from the interior vatican of that time is so nasty, that it would damage the from the outset extremely crumbling credibility even more.
But until that there are a lot of naive catholics, who don't want to see their pope, like he is.
The claim of the supposed kidnapping was made by Dan Kurzman based on what Kurzman claims was an interview with the (subsequently deceased) SS General Karl Wolff. Where is the documentation that such a plot was considered by the high brass of Germany? Now we are to believe that German tanks were manueuvering in St. Peter's Square. What nonsense, and what an insult to people who know better than to credit Kurzman's fantasies.
@19lfm12As to you being "daft," this is because of your demonstrated "conspiracy theory" type thinking especially with assertions that any evidence against your position equates to either "a) lying, b) ignorant, c) brainwashed, or d) paid for their services." (Talk about fallacious logic). Such reasoning cannot be "debated" as any evidence against your position is simply dismissed as "proof" of your position. Such is "daft" thinking. Again, that is why we are not "debating."
It would seem that you consider the requests of God, given via Mary at LaSalette & Fatima to be 'tired old myths'. In reality, these are direct from God, ordering the Vatican to repent & reform itself; & to engage in a very specific spiritual mode of action. This was intentionally ignored, resulting in WWII, the Shoah & the death of over 50 million ppl.
@19lfm12 Your facts aren't even correct regarding Josef Ratzinger's time in the war (Hint, he wasn't guarding slave laborers) If you can't even get a basic fact like that correct, I have no faith that you will get other more nuanced details correct with such things like the Concordat.
@crabstu What has been said is factual & based on exhaustive research - NOT using the lies concocted by Opus Dei!
Ratz guarded slave laborers from Dachau in a BMW plant. He was in Hungary for the forced deportation of Jews to the death camps. He was in Trauenstein 'in the army barracks'..which was a subcamp of Dachau in that town.
Had the Vatican been obedient to God, they would have NEVER signed the Concordat.
@crabstu It is the Vatican Administration which is 'full of crap', rather then full of the Spirit of the Living God!
Who in their right mind would elect a man as 'successor to Peter' & lauded as the 'personal representative of Christ on earth'....who is an unrepentant former Nazi?
Only those who serve Satan would do this......
Yet Ratz has fulfilled his destiny by rebuking & blaspheming God in public.
@19lfm12 --Please get serious. The fact that the young boy in Bavaria was a "brown shirt" is nothing more than a cultural phenomenon. THat's like saying that every American used the atom bomb in Japan when the American administration decided to bomb Hiroshima and Nagazaki!
@TheMenghi1 That young Bavarian boy in a brown shirt should never have been Ordained a preist, much less made 'pope'. As he has NEVER repented of or made atonement for his Nazi involvement.
Being asked to take part in evil is not a 'cultural phenomenon': it is grave sin. If he actually had any Faith, he would have resisted - as did MANY true Catholics. Who risked torture & death for Christ.
Ratzinger has repeatedly shown his Inversion to Christ.
@19lfm12 --I guess that explains why there is a forest named in honor of Pius XII in Israel (can't remember where)? There were Jewish rabbis who begged Pius XII not to denounce the Nazi killing of Jews for fear of even more reprisals. That, too, is a fact.
@TheMenghi1 The concept of human stupidity & greed must be new to you.....
I do not care who said or did what. Those who did so were either stupid or paid for their deed. As the song says:"money changes everything....". If someone if paid to do evil - either literally or as part of their job or 'assigned task' - they have done great evil for filthy lucre.
Most importantly: what these men allegedly said is truly irrelevant anyway.
@19lfm12 --I guess your answers say it all. First, you don't subscribe to any Church. You're thinking is fully "independent" and without any shades of gray. Secondly, you are the arbiter of others, their motives, thinking, etc. When someone takes such a position, it is impossible to argue with that person, so I will leave you to your metaphysical certainty. God bless.
@TheMenghi1 By 'subscribe to a church' you mean 'only think & say as they permit you'. That is not of God.
Christ did not establish a global hegemonic theocracy in collaboration with secular powers to control men. He established a spiritual family, owning nothing material, which assisted souls to find God. He neither uses mind control, conditioning, nor peer pressure. That is what evil men do:deny or try to restrict the activity of the Holy Spirit.
@19lfm12 --I guess your answers say it all. First, you don't subscribe to any Church. Your thinking is fully "independent" and without any shades of gray. Secondly, you are the arbiter of others, their motives, thinking, etc. When someone takes such a position, it is impossible to argue with that person, so I will leave you to your metaphysical certainty. God bless.
@TheMenghi1 If you claim to be Catholic, then you should be familiar with the messages & prophecies given by God through Mary to certain priviledged souls over the last 156 years, known to be legitimate. These are 'metaphysical certainty' & in complete Coherence with the Gospel & Prophets.
If you do not believe this or deny this - as the entities in charge of the Vatican do - then you need to wake up while there is still precious time left.
@crabstu His presence in Hungary coincides precisely with the Nazi forced deportation of Hungarian Jews to the death camp by train, at the request of the eagerely collaborative Hungarian govt. That was the ONLY reason his unit was there, as Hungary gladly welcomed the Nazi annexation.
The ONLY reason the Nazi military went into Hungary then was to deport the Jews to the death camps; and Ratzinger was part of those units.
@crabstu The only thing true in 'DaVinci" is the power & hegemony of the Vatican & Opus Dei, their elitism, connivance & masonic modality - all of which is the complete inverse of the Gospel of Christ.
All else in Dan Brown's works is pure fiction....for which he was paid handsomely by his masters in the Obra.
@crabstu It is noted with great interest that you choose to ignore the factual reality of Fatima & LaSalette in this matter. As both historical & spiritual reality.
Perhaps you should consider the 'nuanced details' of the Gospel. And what Daniel & Revelation has to say of Herr Ratz & the Vatican, as confirmed by the very words of Christ. And of the chosen souls to whom He has given propehcy via Mary over the past 150 odd years.
@19lfm12 Nonsense. Again, discounting your opinion as ridiculous has no bearing on my belief of Fatima or LaSalette. You are about as authoritative as Jimmy Swaggert on such matters.
@crabstu If you actually knew the spiritual reality of Mary's apparitions & messages there & their complete Coherence with Scripture, you would not speak as you do.
The Vatican was given very specific requests from God, which it ignored - & turned into tourist trap$. As they would not obey God & did thus, the prophecied WWI & all the carnage which followed it +the spiritual & material results manifested.
@19lfm12 Two can play that nonsense. So I charge that if you actually knew the spiritual reality of Mary's apparitions & messages there & their complete Coherence with Scripture (not to mention simple history), you would not speak as you do.
@crabstu The reality is...not everything contra the Vatican written by Prot. authors is wrong. REALITY: very few things which the Vatican has done are Coherent with the Gospel.
The Vatican has already pass the Failsafe point which God offered. No more chances. Time is up for them; it will all be over soon. IF they had obeyed, we would not be facing what shall now happen. It is their fault, for which all humanity will suffer.
@crabstu As I recall from Debating class, Ad Hominem is the last resort of the deperate. Lacking a coherent argument or response, the desperate one lashes out at his opponent, degrading his person, ideas, intellect, or all of the above.
@19lfm12 You assume this was any sort of real debate as if one is really going to seriously entertain your opinions and ignorant statements regarding history. No, when confronted with such things, sometimes you just have to call it like it is and move on. You're daft.
(BTW, it's a common misconception that calling someone a name is an "ad hominem. So in that regard, you are also ignorant.)
@crabstu The essence of the 'AdHominem' is to try to turn the argument against the opponent personally. By deriding his intellect or person. This includes name calling.
What is written in re the pending destruction of the Vatican & its secular allies is true Scriptural prophecy. It stands on its own merit, as it is of God. It is not dependent upon any mortal for its veracity.
@19lfm12 Calling you "daft" is not an ad hominem. Perhaps a simple review of your high school debate class notes would reveal this (unless you missed that day). An ad hominem would be something like this, "Of course 19lfm12 believes such things about the Pope, he doesn't even fully understand an ad hominem attack" which of course sets up a logical fallacy. However, even if fallacious, it can still be true.
@crabstu One of the most hysterical logical fallacies is 'Papal Infallibility', which has been extended to apply to every hedonistic Prelate & dicastry in the Church. A review of history shows this to be ludicrous. A review of spiritual reality shows this to be gross spiritual deception & mind control - making ppl into dupes.
Christ never gave ANY such blanket infallibility. And as the Vatican has consistently rejected & ignored the Holy Spirit, they no longer have ANY power of God.
@19lfm12 Now as to my assertions about you. I again assert you have not expertise or authority to interpret prophesy of any kind. And given the nature of such things is "belief" vice absolute proof, I don't put much stock in your beliefs given you have demonstrated any reason why I should.
@crabstu What has been written is not my personal opinion, nor is it 'on my authority'. By the same token, we are to take the Vatican's so called 'authority' seriously when it has abused kids for some 1000 years, tortured,plundered, murdered, conquered, persecuted 'in the Name of God'? They have utterly lost ALL presumed 'authority' & are truly "whitened sepulchres', as they do not believe in God.
Understanding of Scripture & Prophecy is free to those invoking the Holy Spirit in truth.
@19lfm12 "Understanding of Scripture & Prophecy is free to those invoking the Holy Spirit in truth."
This isn't ever supported by Scripture and at face value isn't even logical. I'm beginning to think you are a parody of fundamentalist because you surely aren't Catholic.
@crabstu Information as to the REAL truth of what God said through Mary at LaSalette, Fatima, Garabandal & Akita is out there for anyone to discern. Comprehension of these truths is only through the Holy Spirit - which is free to all who ask for it sincerely.
The core message is: God has had enough of the duplicity, disobedience & self-serving power of those who would dare to 'speak in His Name'. All prophecied regarding the destruction of the Vatican & its secular allies will now be done.
@crabstu Sadly, you are spouting the Opus Dei 'company song', equating the truth of what was revealed from God at LaSalette & Fatima (further confirmed by Garabandal & Akita) with "old myths".
History is only understood, in its core reality, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit....which Opus Dei lacks & rejects.
@19lfm12 You said, "You are spouting the Opus Dei 'company song"....which Opus Dei lacks and rejects. NOW THAT is an example of an ad hominem. Textbook as well (guilt by association).
@crabstu Opus Dei - which is Ecclesiastical Freemasonry - its predecessors & current many front organization s have long had a vested interest in either suppressing, 'editing', or denying the reality of what God has spoken to men though Mary. Unless of course they can use it to their advantage......
@crabstu Dan Brown was well paid for his services....and Opus Dei came out smelling like a rose. A wonderful ruse: using reverse publicity for image enhancement!
The only thing true in Brown's works is the power, hegemony, greed, & complete lack of the love of Christ or faith in Him exhibited by Opus Dei & the Vatican.
@19lfm12 said: "The only thing true in Brown's works is the power, hegemony, greed, & complete lack of the love of Christ or faith in Him exhibited by Opus Dei & the Vatican.
@19lfm12 said: The only thing true in Brown's works is the power, hegemony, greed, & complete lack of the love of Christ or faith in Him exhibited by Opus Dei & the Vatican.
the catholics in america ran 90% of this countrys private schools at its peek in 1970. today its still almost half. 16% of hospital beds are in catholic hospitals. if this evil group of people have done this amazing selfless charity and you and yoru church do less what does that make you?
3 million Catholics died in the holocaust and people have the (bigoted) nerve to say Catholicism and Nazism were in cahoots . i think they are holocaust deniers.
@ned262626 Relations between the Vatican and the Wilhelmstrasse were tense, but bishops in France and Croatia (with some saintly exceptions, like Aloizije Stepinac) enthusiastically supported Hitler and the fascist regimes he propped up. The German bishops were a mixed bag. Most disliked the Nazis on general principle, but not too many went out of their way to oppose them.
@moogamax Mr. Stephinac was an overt Nazi supporter, as was the entire Croatian church organization. What the hierachy approved of & enabled their was from hell itself.
@19lfm12 I'll agree with you on two points. First, in the years leading up to the war, Zagreb diocesan newspapers printed opinion pieces that ran along the lines of "Why Serbs Aren't Real Human Beings." As archbishop, Stepinac could have ordered the editors to tone it down, but he didn't.
Two, many of his defenders argue that Tito fabricated the most damning evidence against him. The premise that communists always lie is the basis of all Holocaust denial.
@moogamax Hence the point. Stephinac' deeds of ommission are as damning as would be those of commission. Amusingly, Tito was Catholic:)
Very, very few Croats -clerical or lay- resisted or in any way tried to halt the hatred & atrocities. The clergy & hierarchy were leading the ppl & gave no moral leadership. And then there are the clerics who actively did or lead the deeds of war crimes against Serbs, Jews & others.
@moogamax What about the Lutheran bishops? What about the 65 million Lutherans that voted for Hitler? Catholic Bavaria voted for teh Katholic Centre Partei.
@FFFFbody The pro-Nazi Protestants were the worst. They were whores even in their theology. As I'm sure you know, many of them bought into junk Bible scholarship that depicted Jesus as an Aryan, and an anti-Semite to boot.
@moogamax "....scholarship that depicted Jesus as an Aryan, and an anti-Semite to boot."
The Catholics are guilty of this long before the Reformation, as it was the Vatican which invented anti-Semetism, founded in the virtual de facto 'dogma' that "all Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus".
This was taught to generationsof Catholics, right up to the present day.
@19lfm12 The notion that Jesus was ethnically distinct from Jews of later times was a conceit of Protestant scholars of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. The Catholic Church never adopted it. In 1965, the Second Vatican Council formally absolved the Jewish people of deicide and denounced the idea that God had cursed them. Pope John Paul II went so far as to say that God's covenant with the children of Abraham "has never been broken."
@moogamax Anti-Semetism was invented & intergenerationally taught as de facto 'doctrine' to Catholic laity for centuries. Scapegoating the Jewish ppl as a race for the death of Christ. It has been both official & unofficial 'policy'. From time to time some pope or cardinal will show real of pretended sympathy for the Jews. Then the racism starts up again, stirred up by the clergy or laity, with full knowledge of their superiors.
@FFFFbody As you do not comprehend, let me repeat: the results of elections via secret ballot have NO demographics, as the identity of the voters is secret. Even if those figures were 'true', they are conjecture, not fact. So exactly who voted for what is unknown. Thus one has no way to factually know how many Catholic, Protestants, Jews, or Martians voted for 'x'.
The subject is German Catholics, nor Lutheran clerics.
@19lfm12 According to historian Thomas Childers,"The Nazis failed to make major inroads into the electoral strength of the Catholic Center Party; in fact, the latter's vote increased slightly between the elections of 9/1930 and 7/1932. Also, the National Socialists hailed from east, central and north Germany." Source: same as above. So, voters for the party did not come from the SOUTH i.e. Catholic Bavaria.
@FFFFbody Those who make apologies for Catholic Nazis & Nazi Collaborators, regardless of what 'source" (true or not) is cited are blind to both the material reality of the overwhelming Catholic participation in Nazi atrocities, & the horrid spiritual reality.
@19lfm12 Historians work to establish the historical record. The author of the book I used is German of all things. Your the one thats blind. You make up your own shit, refute documented evidence, and uses sources that are "secret" which renders them suspicious. I can see keeping sources secret about events that have happened past 25 years or so. But 60+years? Your on your heels aren't you? As far as the "overwhelming Catholic participatio" of atrocities. Consider this: To be continues.....
@19lfm12 The election of Cardinal Pacelli (Pius XII) is not accepted with favor in Germany because he was alwyas opposed to Nazism." Berliner Morgenpost, a Nazi organ, 3/3/1939, the day after PiusXII was elected. " "In a manner never known before, the Pope has repudiated the Nazi New European Order. It is true, the Pope does not refer to us by name, but his speech is one long attack on everything we stand for. Here he is clearly speaking on behalf of the Jews." Gestapo report on Pius XII 1942
@19lfm12 "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the lilence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas. He is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dards to raise his voice at all." NY Times editorial, 12/25/1941."The last tiny islands of neutrality are so hemmed in and overshadowed by war and fear that no one but the Pope is still able to speak aloud. The Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism. He left no doubt that the Nazi war aims are also irreconcilable with.
@19lfm12 with his own conception of a Christian peace." NYTimes, editorial, 12/25/1941. "The Holy Father sent by hand a letter to the bishops instructing them to lift the enlosure from the convents & monasteries so that they could become refuges for the Jews. I know of one convent where the sisters slept in the basement, giving up their beds to Jewish refugees." Israil Zolli, the Chief Rabbi of Rome during WWII, on Pius XII's activity on behalf of the Roman Jewish community. From his own bio...
@FFFFbody That's all nice & cuddly......but there would have been no need for that if his immediate predecessors in the Petrine Office had been obedient to God.
Were that the case, there would have never been any Nazis...no WWII....and no Shoah.
The Church has the blood of countless millions on its hands, for which it shall account to God.
@19lfm12 Why I Became A Catholic. I have a lot more, even a quote from Europes most prominent Jew and the 20th C's genius: Albert Einstein. The only one that is going to be apolgizing is you for being a charlatan and spreading lies against His church. But I think your ego will prevent you from that. Won't it? Stay thirsty my friend.
@FFFFbody It is truly irrelevant who was speaking in glowing terms about the Vatican in re WWII. They are either: a) lying, b) ignorant, c) brainwashed, or d) paid for their services. Or words have been put in their mouths posthumously. Which ever option applies....
The 'church' I belong to is what Christ founded, which owns no real estate, money or worldly power - as it is spiritual family of all who believe in & follow Christ.
@19lfm12@19lfm12 I can tell I'm intellectually superiour to you; and I'm not going to commit anymore of my time to this. By the way, if you want to believe in Christ only and bible only, that's fine. Just remember, the Catholic Church pre-dates the bible (NT anyway) The Church wrote the bible (NT). In 397 the Council of Carthage decided on the "finality" of the bible,and forwared it to the Supreme Pontiff to cement. So your bible was written by the very thing you detest. Stay thirsty my friend.
2) The Roman Catholic Church as we know it, headed by the Vatican is a 100% man-made entity, created in 325AD
3) NT Scriptures were in written form within a few years of Christ's Ascension. They were brought to other nations (i.e. Egypt) in the 40s. The Vatican heavily edited & intentionally mistranslated Scripture to reinforce their hegemony
4) God wrote the 'Bible', not the Vatican, using human instruments.
@19lfm12 Hey buddy, youever heard of Martin Luthers book "On the Jews and their Lies"? In it, he describes them as rats, vermin, polluted race, etc. Luther advocates the burning of synagogues and Jewish books. In 1536 7?he successfully petitioned his price, the Elector of Saxony Martin Frederick to prohibit Jews from living, doing business and even passing through his princip. Sound familiar? You can see why your focused animosity on a 14 year old boy is completely asinine.
@FFFFbody 1) Martin Luther is neither Catholic nor part of the Vatican Administration
2) Anti-Semetic words & deeds were of the Vatican long before 1536, and from whom Luther got such ideas
3) The 14yo boy in question (who joined the HJ at age 10 or earlier) had the audacity to enter a Seminary after his Nazi military service, of which he has NEVER repented or atoned for. And is now 'pope'.
@19lfm12 I have historical, documented evidence to back up everything I typed. You have your opinion and "secret" sources. We're done here.P.S. Don't ever take a history course, you'd fail it. Stay thristy my friend.
@FFFFbody All one need do is to look at Euro history prior to the Reformation to see what the Church did to the Jews: it made Anti-Semitism into de facto Doctrine, & a social more. Christians were intergenerationally taught to hate & persecute Jews, with the overt or implicit approval of Church authorities. They were herded into ghettos, forced to convert, tortured or burned at the stake as they were blamed for the Black Death, etc.
@19lfm12 Actually no. The scriptures pertaining to the autobiography of Christ, or as we knw it, the Gospels are written decades after the Ascencion. During those times when the Apostles are close to their old age.
@ned262626 You mean like when...Josef Ratzinger guarded slave laborers from Dachau? Or when his unit was involved in the forced deportation of Hungarian Jews to the death camps? Or when he was in the 'army barrack in Trauenstein"...which was actually a subcamp of Dachau?
Dachau was known to have the largest number of Catholics.....those honest ones who had the moral courage to resist the regime & help the Jews.
@ned262626 So someone who speaks truth, unmasking reality & exposing propaganda fraud is a 'piece of shit'?
I would submit that the real manure is Ratz & Opus Dei, which put him in power as their front man. And which has fabricated out of whole cloth a complete (though very flimsy....) cover story for Ratzinger's life.
@19lfm12 That's a cheap shot 19lfm12. The entire German Army was conscripted. Think of the alternative the young Ratzinger faced: imprisonment, family would've probably been killed. Even here in America all men at 18 must register with Selective Service or we face $50,000 fine and up to 10 years imprisonment, we can't apply for student loans, etc. Yeah, a real cheap shot indeed.
@FFFFbody Christ promised that those who would be His true followers would endure persecution for their Faith; some even death. One must 'leave all' to follow Him. No collaboration with evil is allowed.
Those who refused military service on religious grounds in the US risked much for Christ. Those who did so in Nazi Germany did even more - as they were resisting involvement in overt evil.
@19lfm12 First off, regarding my "potty mouth" comment, I got you mixed up with ned262626. HE was the potty mouth, not you. So, I'm sorry for that. Now, as far as what you typed, you can say whatever about "real German Christians resisted Nazis" I don't care. But your accusation then and now is a cheap shot. "Ratz", as you disrespectfully put it, was a 15 year old kid. Who thinks about "Christianity" and being a "good Christian" at age 15? Also, like I said b4 if you didn't join, you'd die...
@FFFFbody To demand that those who claim to be Christian act the part is not a cheap shot; it is their duty. Past the age of reason (6 or 7) one is culpable for sin. Thus when he willingly joined the HJ at age 10, then into the senior group at 14, he is culpable for his deeds.
His neighbors were of the White Rose; Catholic resisters. His family did NOT join or help them & were known as being very pro-Nazi.
@19lfm12 Go on. What was the White Rose. And what is your source/documented evidence that his family was very pro-Nazi. And what is your source that he guarded a BMW camp for this I believe but I would like to know yoru source, as a starting point.
@FFFFbody In one of Ratz's early stints in the Nazi military, he guarded a BMW factory which was staffed by slave laborers from Dachau, near Munich. All the lies to defend him will not erase this.
There were many resistance elements, of which the White Rose was most famous - and which just happened to include some of the Ratz family neighbors. Someone turned them in to the Gestapo......a retired former SS employee makes a good suspect.....
@19lfm12 Hey buddy, I'll leave Jesus out of this, sure no problem. I've read my past posts and realize I should've been more articulate regarding the 1932 elections. Germany is predominantly Lutheran (the Reformation started in Germany afterall) but Catholics mainly live in Bavaria. Bavaria stayed loyale to the Church. Before the 1932 elections Pope Pius XI wrote an encyclical Mit Brennadeir Sorge which outlined the evils of Nazism. It was read fomr every pulpit in Germany, begging the Germans
@FFFFbody 1) Germany is equally Catholic & Protestant; each about 30% of total population
2) Nazism was a political movement which originated IN Bavaria, which is Catholic, & OF Catholics who comprised its membership. Protestants joined as it spread.
3) Bavaria stayed 'loyal' to something, but it was not Christ.
4) Had German Bishops properly evangelized,long before the 1930s, there would have been no Nazi party.
@19lfm12 Counterpoint #1 and #3) See source below Counterpoint #2) Your right. But the question is why in Bavaria? Because its Catholicism or because of its geographical cohesiveness to his native Austria? Counterpoint 4) Their would not be a Nazi party if the U.K. and the nasty French didn't set the stage for W W II in 1919 and Article 231 (War Guilt Clause) plus the humilation dictated from Versaille Treaty. Source for 1&3 Hammer or Anvil? Modern Germany 1648-Present from Holger H. Herwig
@19lfm12 I believe you about the BMW factory. But my problem with your posistion is you ignore the millions of Lutherans that voted for the Nazis, and focus on one 11 year old boy that was according to law, was conscripted. Now I know Christians follow a "higher law". I see your arguement. But to harp on a lad.....What about you? Are you a U.S. male? Did you sign up for Selective Service at age 18?
@FFFFbody 1) Ratz was 10, if not younger (you could join as young as 6), when he willingly (by his own words...) joined the HJ. Joining at 10 was law in 1936, so he joined no later then April 1937...but willingly.
This 'lad' can be linked to potential war crimes in his Nazi military service. As he never repented of or even showed one shred of remorse for his involvement, he should never have been Ordained,much less made 'pope'.
@FFFFbody Another half-truth. During that phase of his national service, Ratzinger was a Hitler Youth auxiliary in the Luftwaffe's anti-aircraft division. His unit only guarded the factory in the sense that its members manned searchlights and artillery pieces, hoping to shoot down the bombers that had flown from England to destroy it. You're making it sound like he and his buddies were standing over the workers with rifles and whips.
Yet it is factually true that some living neighbors/eyewitnesses to the reality of the Ratzingers said things of them quite contrary to the Opus Dei 'company song' about him. They are speaking the truth.
@19lfm12 I respect you not revealing your source for I assume it's a living person rather than a book or something. But I naturally ask the question: Does this source have an axe to grind himself? If this person has an axe to grind, will his emotions hatred? muddy the historical record? I'll never know, will I?
@FFFFbody The recorded testimony of elderly eyewitnesses has no agenda other then to state truth: the Ratzinger family was very PRO-Nazi, & were known as such. They had the opportunity to do otherwise, as they would have been aware of the Catholic resistance, but 'made another choice'.
When you see something which is 'too good to be true' -a human painted as sinless & pure with absolutely no faults of blemishes - there is usually something VERY wrong when you 'check under the hood'.....
@19lfm12 Point to me in the direction of the recorded history. And the Church does not teach that the Pontiff is sinless and pure. I think you just have a genuine misunderstanding of papal infallibility.
@FFFFbody If time permitted, one could easily cite numerous persons, groups, writings, hymns et.al (all with Imprimatur...) which proclaim a pope to have blanket infallibility, beyond question, having absolute power over everything on earth, & presented as both representing AND being Christ.
That is massive LIE & spiritual deception, purportrated on countless generations of Catholics.
@19lfm12 You want a suggestion? According to U.S and German government records of the demographics covering religion in Germany show from a population of 80 million Germans, 65 million of them were Lutheran, and only 15 million were Roman Catholic. In the 1932 elections, ONLY Catholic Bavaria voted for the Katholic Centre Partie. The rest of Germany voted for the Nazis. You can't dispute this, this is historical fact. Don't you think Lutherans and/or Lutheranism are to blame?
@FFFFbody Your figures are both false & misleading. Currently Catholic & Protestants each have c. 30% of the populace. But you cannot compare this to pre WWII Germany: as its territory has changed. So too the demographics. As with the US, there is NO way to know exactly who voted for what, as ballots are secret.....
1) the scenario was far more complex then what you paint; 2) Lutheran laity are not subject to the hegemonic control which Catholic Bishops have over their flocks......
@19lfm12 Ha, just because you disagree with what I typed doesn't mean I'm misleading. I've read all your comments here, and on your personal YT page, and it's clear you have animosity toward organized religion to begin with. So, how can you have a legitimate debate with someone, even when I use government records. And you refute? True- elections are secret but political parties no what regions vote what.
@FFFFbody The figures you cited were NOT of the 1930s; they are current. The crafty way you wrote implied they were both current & 'infallible'. Election results DO NOT show the 'views' of an ethnic or religious group; only of those who actually voted.....
Someone who is very dear to me, of global historical & metaphysical importance, also had 'animosity toward organized religion': Jesus Christ.
If you have a problem with this, then take it up with Him....
@FFFFbody Factually, there were MANY young boys (and girls) who resisted joining the HJ in Nazi Germany, knowingly risking their lives for their moral & spiritual standards. They were both Catholic & Protestant; & they were REAL Christians, compared to the likes of the Ratzingers!
These youthful resisters did many other brave things during the war: stealing food for their parents & for Jews in hiding. They have my respect - not Ratzinger!
@ned262626 The only Catholics who died in the Nazi camps were resisters. But many times more then these were gleeful Catholic supporters of Naziism, which was given birth in Catholic Bavaria....by 'good Catholics', clerical AND lay.
Factually, many bishops in Germany, Czech, Hungary, Croatia, France, Austria were pro-Nazi.
Dachau, the camp with the most Catholic inmates had a young Josef Ratzinger guarding its slave laborers at a BMW plant.....
@ned262626 The only Catholics who were persecuted by the Nazis were the ones who obeyed Christ & resisted the Nazis. THEY were the ones sent to the camps to be worked to death, tortured & killed.
The 'good Catholics' who obeyed their Bishop/Nazi collaborators & did NOT resist the Nazis, had no problems. Many of them were gleeful collaborators, turning in Catholic resisters.
the pope signed a concordat with hitler... thats like a deal ,, in writing,, joining forces as it where... and now the church says it was against hitler,, right!
@rock9711 The catholic church was one of the first organizations to denounce Naziism publicly. If I recall, this happened even before the war and the first concentration camps. Because of the Pope's denunciation, catholic priests were treated with the same hatred as jews. The pope even allowed Jews to take refuge in the Vatican.
@ercpkr The Vatican engaged in overt duplicity. Signing the Concordat which enabled the power of the Nazis, & pretending at the same time to oppose them. They betrayed millions of souls into the hands of the Nazis....and then the Communists.
@ercpkr Naziism was created by Catholics in very Catholic Bavaria. This is historic truth.
Note: no Catholic bishops went to the camps. Only laity & priests who dared to resist & dissent from the Nazis. Historic fact. The far larger percentage of Catholics gleefully collaborated with the Nazis in many countries.
Ratzinger guarded slave laborers at Dachau, the camp with the largest number of Catholic resisters; including priests, nuns, brothers, & laity - who were brutalized.
@rock9711 Oh, you mean that Concordat in 1933 that "Cardinal Pacelli (later Pius XII), told the British minister to the Holy See that he had signed the treaty with a pistol at his head."
That Concordat which Hitler nicely sidestepped in 1937 after Pope Pius XI published an anti-Nazi encyclical by accusing priests to be pedophiles.
@nuntym We have all seen the photos: there was no pistol to Pacelli's head.He was doing the will of what he served.
By their disobedience to God's requests, the Vatican is directly responsible - morally & spirirtually - for WWII & the Shoah. They could have been averted, had they done what God requested. But they disobeyed & some of the Vatican Administration overtly cooperated with the Nazis. In German, France, Czech, Croatia, Hungary, Austria.......
@19lfm12 Uhm, I do not think anyone except you understood that Cardinal Pacelli never meant a LITERAL "gun to the head."
And I do wonder. Even if you have the evidence to support your claim of "some of the Vatican Administration" cooperating with the Nazis, I do doubt that those were members of the "Vatican Administration" at all. Do you know that the Vatican doesn't even have a diplomatic service, and cannot make embassies to other countries? So I was wondering how you got that idea.
@nuntym of course they have a diplomatic service, Pius XII had been Secty of State before his election, there are papal nuncios in nearly every country - John XXIII was a nuncio to Turkey, possibly Romania if I remember rightly.
@nuntym The Holy See is the Vatican State. The term "Holy See" even though religious, it is used as an official title of the State in Diplomacy. It is quite the trick on behalf of the Vatican to make the whole world call it holy, because the world has to call it like that if it's the state's name. Even UN and Islamic countries refer to it as the "Holy See"
@nuntym Hey buddy. I've got some sources you could use next time you run up against someone concerning the Church, Nazis, Holocaust, etc. If you want.
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Why the hell would Hitler want to kidnap Pacelli? Even before he was Pope Pacelli worked in Germany and favoured the Nazis. All you had to do was mention Jews or Communists and you knew where he stood. See 'Massacre in Rome' or 'Butterfly's Tongue' for a local fact-and-fiction perspective....
Hitler's plot to kidnap the Pope is well documented. Historian Harold L Deutsch first wrote about it in a detailed fashion in "The Conspiracy Against Hitler". Pope Pius XII was working as an intermediary for German ant-Nazi forces in an effort to overthrow Hitler. The Brits were involved, too. It's really a shame that the truth of what really happened during that time has been undermined by communist propagandists because the truth is far more interesting.
HammerofHeretics. No it is not. Pius XII was good friends with the nazi regime. Your own catholic theologians and the jesuits who wrote the history of Pius XII even admitt that the so called "plan to kidnap the pope" was a hoax. It was British propaganda created by British intelligence agents in order to foment catholic opposition of nazism.
I suggest you see the work of British historian Owen Chadwick who found evidence that the British Political Warfare Executive (PWE) "found it excellent propaganda to put it about that Hitler was just about to kidnap the Pope". The British propaganda office fabricated at least two German wireless broadcasts in support of the theory, building upon a pre-existing "rumour".
I recommend you read "A Special Mission" by Dan Kurzman. He not only covers Wolff's role in the kidnapping plot, he had interviews with Jesuit Priest Peter Gumpel who has full access to the Vatican archives regarding these events. Gumpel, who would have no reason to defend Pius XII if he had been "friends" with the Nazi's, since Gumpel lost family members under Nazi persecution, has confirmed that there were indeed plans to carry out a kidnapping, which were later aborted for tactical reasons.
David Alvarez and Robert A. Graham (the Jesuit priest-historians chosen by pope Paul VI to edit the ADSS) concur with Chadwick, concluding that "the evidence concerning an alleged plot to kidnap the pope is, at best, mixed...The few bits of credible evidence that do exist suggest that, in fact, there was no plan to move against the Pope."
So basically you are falling for propaganda. The rise of Hitler would have been impossible without Cardinal Pacelli's signing of the Reichskonkordat.
Sorry, pal, but Harold Deutsch talked to the person who warned the Vatican about the plot and he did it right after the war when he covered the Nuremburg trials. He was about as close to the action as you could get. I'm afraid you are the one who is falling for false history.
Laugh, he talked to somebody who "warned the vatican about the plot". I am sorry to tell you but it was all propaganda to create anger towards the nazi regime. This is why it is known as the "ALLEGED plot to kidnap Pope Pius XII" . Hitler would have NEVER thought of crossing the papacy as his most ardent supporters and Europes's most die hard fascists (such as Fransico Franco and Ante Pavelić) were fantically catholic.
The person involved in the plot's name was Karl Otto Wolff. In 1944, when the allies liberated Rome, he presented Pius with documents detailing Hitler's plot to invade the Vatican. These documents are in the Vatican archives. Just because you have not seen the full facts does not mean they do not exist. As I mentioned, Harold Deutsch talked to Wolff immediately after the war, when details of what happened were still fresh. It was Wolff who talked Hitler out of the plot.
Jesus Christ man, I know who Karl Wolff is, I am a historian. He was a devout roman catholic and for this Hitler assigned him to Mussolini's Italian government. He was a collaborator with Germany's catholic Vatican diplomat Ernst von Weizsäcker. There is little doubt in my mind that Wolff was working for Allen Dulles the director of the CIA whose nephew Avery Dulles was a jesuit priest and high level cardinal.
You are mentally trapped by the jesuits mass web of intrigue.
Your mind seems to be wandering a bit now. How does anything you've just said refute that Wolff provided the Vatican with evidence of Hitler's plot? This information remains in the Vatican archives and will soon be released for all to see. Are you denying that this evidence exists? Because it seems to me that anyone who has not reviewed these files (and that's just about everyone but Fr. Peter Gumpel, does not have the necessary evidence to make a sound judgment on the case.
You do not find it at all relevant that the information regarding an alleged nazi plot to kidnap the pope came from a papist? The papist always try to claim that the pope was scared of hitler in order to justify the fact that Piux XII never did anything significant to stop Hitler or never spoke against the mass murder of jews.
It is a way for the papacy to distance itself from what is historically known as catholic roman fascism.
You've rather tipped your hand with the use of the term "papist"--a word that is used only ironically by Catholics and with venom by anti-Catholics.
The Catholic Church certainly did not have to invent a defense against it's involvement in Nazism, the fact that Pius XII saved over 3/4 of a million Jews through his direct intervention is proof enough of that.
Laugh it wasnt 3/4 of a million jews. I am aware that they hid some jews in the vatican so that the papacy could later distance itself from the holocaust. But it doesnt change the facts. The nazi's themselves protected and worked with certain Wertvolle Juden (useful jews) and Judenrats. They even helped certain zionist jews ship others to palestine. The fascist catholic Ustashi committed genocide on the orthodox serbs in the name of catholicism. Forced conversions in the 20th century!
In 1967, Israeli diplomat Pindas Lipide estimated that Pope Pius XII "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."
Pope Pius XII (and his successors) had/have many jewish coadjutors and pawns such as the Chief rabbi of Rome (Israel Zolli) and that murderous jewess Golda Meir. It is also known that certain zionists such as Golda Meir exaggerated the scope of Pius XII's protection of certain jews in order to gain favor with the pope so that he would recognize the newly formed state of Israel.
So it would appear you are an anti-Semite. This is deliciously ironic. It reminds me of the Communists who created the black legend surrounding Pope Pius XII in the first place. A worse record for abusing Jews you could not find and they were accusing the person who saved more Jews than any other a collaborator in the Holocaust.
I appear to be an anti-semite? I will take that as a compliment as it means I am a good Christian. Any informed Christian would work against the anti-Christian "jewish" international which does nothing but try to degrade and demoralize Christian and national morality.
what is the name of the movie
RGBRYN 1 week ago
HISTORY SHALL SEE PIUS XII AS A GREAT MAN AND HUMANITARIAN THE 60sSTORY WAS PURE FICTION GOD BLESS VENERABLE PIUS X11
lozspennymoor 3 weeks ago 5
BENEDICT XVI is A GREAT IMPOSTOR like J.P.II. On May 13, 1981 J.P.II &HIS COOPERATORS acted: J.P.II was WOUNDED! EVIDENCES on 2 PHOTOS: one in a film "Pope Assassination Attempt" by "NewsbugAZ" at 3:40 - 3:50; second in a film "Who is behind the shooting of John Paul II ?" by "romereports" at 0:14 - 0:15. There are TOO MUCH BLOOD on J.P.II's RIGHT HAND to BE ALIVE after MINUTES& NOT A BLOOD TRACE of A WOUND on HIS WHITE CLOTHES & J.P.II REMOVED HANDS despite HE should have KEPT HANDS on A WOUND!
Lucciana27jan2009 3 months ago
Hitler's Pope is nothing but propaganda. Thousands upon thousands of jews thanked Pope Pius XII for his heroic acts to save them. He ordered that all monastaries be opened for the jews. Even the chuef rabbi converted to catholicism and took the name "Eugenio" because of his bravery. All this bullcrap about "Hitler's Pope" is nothing but made up facts and lies used in hopes of attacking the church because of it's stances on abortion, marrige, contraception, and other teachings on morality.
TheRemainingFaithful 5 months ago 13
Sadly the catholic cult exists simply cause it's congregants follow blindly,like they always have done!
popazz1 7 months ago
More anti Pius XII comments... Pius XII was not as he is portrayed to be, he was seen as a hero for a long time until the 1960's when a film based totally on fictitious inventions portrayed the Pope as a cold man, and it wasn't even a jew who invented the film but a German, the Jews loved the Pope for his help, in fact the Chief Rabbi of Rome converted and took the name 'Eugenio' in honour of Pope Pius XII.
priest008 8 months ago 7
Funny fiction. There never was a kidnapping plan, the pope was silent most of the time, why should Hitler take a pope refuge, who was on his side? Also we have nearly all data from 1939 till 1945 under enclosure concerning the vatican. It's clear, that this data from the interior vatican of that time is so nasty, that it would damage the from the outset extremely crumbling credibility even more.
But until that there are a lot of naive catholics, who don't want to see their pope, like he is.
mardastheEitheist 10 months ago
@mardastheEitheist He was silent because if Vatican falls under Hitler, then nobody would be there to help the Jews.
avatarspirit57 7 months ago
@mardastheEitheist read the book that the chief rabbi of rome wrote himself, we are not naive catholics you ar a nasty person
MrGroove81 6 months ago 2
fighting off guns with pikes? no wonder germany lost
infringementMAN 11 months ago
The claim of the supposed kidnapping was made by Dan Kurzman based on what Kurzman claims was an interview with the (subsequently deceased) SS General Karl Wolff. Where is the documentation that such a plot was considered by the high brass of Germany? Now we are to believe that German tanks were manueuvering in St. Peter's Square. What nonsense, and what an insult to people who know better than to credit Kurzman's fantasies.
hlwrites 1 year ago
"And even a small tank"
If that's a small tank...then what do you call a
Tiger Tank..?
A spaceship..?!
13Psycho13 1 year ago
@13Psycho13 And it's not even German! It's just a WWII American Halftrack painted black!
SuperRIDDE5 1 year ago
"and even a small tank"
*shows halftrack*
KristianCramer 1 year ago
@oallos1: the film is titled Under the Roman Sky, "Sotto il cielo di Roma". I don't know the release date. Looks interesting, though.
billace90 1 year ago
so bored of nazi movies, tedious
boogiebuddy01 1 year ago
So what is the name of this movie going to be?
Is it out yet ?
Oallos1 1 year ago
what's the name of this film?
sungmoon1987 1 year ago
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@19lfm12As to you being "daft," this is because of your demonstrated "conspiracy theory" type thinking especially with assertions that any evidence against your position equates to either "a) lying, b) ignorant, c) brainwashed, or d) paid for their services." (Talk about fallacious logic). Such reasoning cannot be "debated" as any evidence against your position is simply dismissed as "proof" of your position. Such is "daft" thinking. Again, that is why we are not "debating."
crabstu 1 year ago
Stupid And Filthy Hitler!!!
FrancisTradi 1 year ago
WHat's the name of the movie????? Plz!!
CorieFaulkner 1 year ago
Let the truth be told! This will be a great film that combats both the ignorance and the lies spread by the Devil against Blessed Pius XII.
crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu Let the truth be told! That the Vatican, by disobeying God, enabled WWII - as foretold.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 You don't seem to have a firm grasp of what the truth is, instead regurgitating tired, old myths.
crabstu 1 year ago 3
@crabstu What has been stated is factually true.
It would seem that you consider the requests of God, given via Mary at LaSalette & Fatima to be 'tired old myths'. In reality, these are direct from God, ordering the Vatican to repent & reform itself; & to engage in a very specific spiritual mode of action. This was intentionally ignored, resulting in WWII, the Shoah & the death of over 50 million ppl.
For which the Vatican shall account to God.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Your facts aren't even correct regarding Josef Ratzinger's time in the war (Hint, he wasn't guarding slave laborers) If you can't even get a basic fact like that correct, I have no faith that you will get other more nuanced details correct with such things like the Concordat.
crabstu 1 year ago 3
@crabstu What has been said is factual & based on exhaustive research - NOT using the lies concocted by Opus Dei!
Ratz guarded slave laborers from Dachau in a BMW plant. He was in Hungary for the forced deportation of Jews to the death camps. He was in Trauenstein 'in the army barracks'..which was a subcamp of Dachau in that town.
Had the Vatican been obedient to God, they would have NEVER signed the Concordat.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 You're full of crap. No other way to say it.
crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu It is the Vatican Administration which is 'full of crap', rather then full of the Spirit of the Living God!
Who in their right mind would elect a man as 'successor to Peter' & lauded as the 'personal representative of Christ on earth'....who is an unrepentant former Nazi?
Only those who serve Satan would do this......
Yet Ratz has fulfilled his destiny by rebuking & blaspheming God in public.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 --Please get serious. The fact that the young boy in Bavaria was a "brown shirt" is nothing more than a cultural phenomenon. THat's like saying that every American used the atom bomb in Japan when the American administration decided to bomb Hiroshima and Nagazaki!
TheMenghi1 1 year ago
@TheMenghi1 That young Bavarian boy in a brown shirt should never have been Ordained a preist, much less made 'pope'. As he has NEVER repented of or made atonement for his Nazi involvement.
Being asked to take part in evil is not a 'cultural phenomenon': it is grave sin. If he actually had any Faith, he would have resisted - as did MANY true Catholics. Who risked torture & death for Christ.
Ratzinger has repeatedly shown his Inversion to Christ.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 --I guess that explains why there is a forest named in honor of Pius XII in Israel (can't remember where)? There were Jewish rabbis who begged Pius XII not to denounce the Nazi killing of Jews for fear of even more reprisals. That, too, is a fact.
TheMenghi1 1 year ago
@TheMenghi1 The concept of human stupidity & greed must be new to you.....
I do not care who said or did what. Those who did so were either stupid or paid for their deed. As the song says:"money changes everything....". If someone if paid to do evil - either literally or as part of their job or 'assigned task' - they have done great evil for filthy lucre.
Most importantly: what these men allegedly said is truly irrelevant anyway.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 --I guess your answers say it all. First, you don't subscribe to any Church. You're thinking is fully "independent" and without any shades of gray. Secondly, you are the arbiter of others, their motives, thinking, etc. When someone takes such a position, it is impossible to argue with that person, so I will leave you to your metaphysical certainty. God bless.
TheMenghi1 1 year ago
@TheMenghi1 By 'subscribe to a church' you mean 'only think & say as they permit you'. That is not of God.
Christ did not establish a global hegemonic theocracy in collaboration with secular powers to control men. He established a spiritual family, owning nothing material, which assisted souls to find God. He neither uses mind control, conditioning, nor peer pressure. That is what evil men do:deny or try to restrict the activity of the Holy Spirit.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 --I guess your answers say it all. First, you don't subscribe to any Church. Your thinking is fully "independent" and without any shades of gray. Secondly, you are the arbiter of others, their motives, thinking, etc. When someone takes such a position, it is impossible to argue with that person, so I will leave you to your metaphysical certainty. God bless.
TheMenghi1 1 year ago
@TheMenghi1 If you claim to be Catholic, then you should be familiar with the messages & prophecies given by God through Mary to certain priviledged souls over the last 156 years, known to be legitimate. These are 'metaphysical certainty' & in complete Coherence with the Gospel & Prophets.
If you do not believe this or deny this - as the entities in charge of the Vatican do - then you need to wake up while there is still precious time left.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@crabstu His presence in Hungary coincides precisely with the Nazi forced deportation of Hungarian Jews to the death camp by train, at the request of the eagerely collaborative Hungarian govt. That was the ONLY reason his unit was there, as Hungary gladly welcomed the Nazi annexation.
The ONLY reason the Nazi military went into Hungary then was to deport the Jews to the death camps; and Ratzinger was part of those units.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 You are full of crap and delusional. I bet you buy the Da Vinci Code "hook, line and sinker." Run for the deep water!
crabstu 1 year ago 2
@crabstu The only thing true in 'DaVinci" is the power & hegemony of the Vatican & Opus Dei, their elitism, connivance & masonic modality - all of which is the complete inverse of the Gospel of Christ.
All else in Dan Brown's works is pure fiction....for which he was paid handsomely by his masters in the Obra.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@crabstu It is noted with great interest that you choose to ignore the factual reality of Fatima & LaSalette in this matter. As both historical & spiritual reality.
Perhaps you should consider the 'nuanced details' of the Gospel. And what Daniel & Revelation has to say of Herr Ratz & the Vatican, as confirmed by the very words of Christ. And of the chosen souls to whom He has given propehcy via Mary over the past 150 odd years.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 You confuse my complete discounting of your judgment in such matters with actually ignoring Fatima & LaSalette. Two different things.
crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu You would not write that which you do if you actually believed in LaSalette & Fatima....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Nonsense. Again, discounting your opinion as ridiculous has no bearing on my belief of Fatima or LaSalette. You are about as authoritative as Jimmy Swaggert on such matters.
crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu If you actually knew the spiritual reality of Mary's apparitions & messages there & their complete Coherence with Scripture, you would not speak as you do.
The Vatican was given very specific requests from God, which it ignored - & turned into tourist trap$. As they would not obey God & did thus, the prophecied WWI & all the carnage which followed it +the spiritual & material results manifested.
God will now allow their utter destruction.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Two can play that nonsense. So I charge that if you actually knew the spiritual reality of Mary's apparitions & messages there & their complete Coherence with Scripture (not to mention simple history), you would not speak as you do.
Now go read a Jack Chick comic.
crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu The reality is...not everything contra the Vatican written by Prot. authors is wrong. REALITY: very few things which the Vatican has done are Coherent with the Gospel.
The Vatican has already pass the Failsafe point which God offered. No more chances. Time is up for them; it will all be over soon. IF they had obeyed, we would not be facing what shall now happen. It is their fault, for which all humanity will suffer.
The Vatican will be no more...
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 The reality is...you have no authority nor expertise in any of this. You're simply daft.
crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu As I recall from Debating class, Ad Hominem is the last resort of the deperate. Lacking a coherent argument or response, the desperate one lashes out at his opponent, degrading his person, ideas, intellect, or all of the above.
Pathetic.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 You assume this was any sort of real debate as if one is really going to seriously entertain your opinions and ignorant statements regarding history. No, when confronted with such things, sometimes you just have to call it like it is and move on. You're daft.
(BTW, it's a common misconception that calling someone a name is an "ad hominem. So in that regard, you are also ignorant.)
crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu The essence of the 'AdHominem' is to try to turn the argument against the opponent personally. By deriding his intellect or person. This includes name calling.
What is written in re the pending destruction of the Vatican & its secular allies is true Scriptural prophecy. It stands on its own merit, as it is of God. It is not dependent upon any mortal for its veracity.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Calling you "daft" is not an ad hominem. Perhaps a simple review of your high school debate class notes would reveal this (unless you missed that day). An ad hominem would be something like this, "Of course 19lfm12 believes such things about the Pope, he doesn't even fully understand an ad hominem attack" which of course sets up a logical fallacy. However, even if fallacious, it can still be true.
crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu One of the most hysterical logical fallacies is 'Papal Infallibility', which has been extended to apply to every hedonistic Prelate & dicastry in the Church. A review of history shows this to be ludicrous. A review of spiritual reality shows this to be gross spiritual deception & mind control - making ppl into dupes.
Christ never gave ANY such blanket infallibility. And as the Vatican has consistently rejected & ignored the Holy Spirit, they no longer have ANY power of God.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Now as to my assertions about you. I again assert you have not expertise or authority to interpret prophesy of any kind. And given the nature of such things is "belief" vice absolute proof, I don't put much stock in your beliefs given you have demonstrated any reason why I should.
crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu What has been written is not my personal opinion, nor is it 'on my authority'. By the same token, we are to take the Vatican's so called 'authority' seriously when it has abused kids for some 1000 years, tortured,plundered, murdered, conquered, persecuted 'in the Name of God'? They have utterly lost ALL presumed 'authority' & are truly "whitened sepulchres', as they do not believe in God.
Understanding of Scripture & Prophecy is free to those invoking the Holy Spirit in truth.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 "Understanding of Scripture & Prophecy is free to those invoking the Holy Spirit in truth."
This isn't ever supported by Scripture and at face value isn't even logical. I'm beginning to think you are a parody of fundamentalist because you surely aren't Catholic.
crabstu 1 year ago
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@crabstu Either you do not believe in what the Scriptures say, or you worship something other then the God of Abraham.
19lfm12 1 year ago
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@19lfm12 You said, "Either you do not believe in what the Scriptures say, or you worship something other then the God of Abraham."
--------------
Or you are simply daft and have no clue of that which you speak. I'll go with my conclusion.
crabstu 1 year ago
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crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu Information as to the REAL truth of what God said through Mary at LaSalette, Fatima, Garabandal & Akita is out there for anyone to discern. Comprehension of these truths is only through the Holy Spirit - which is free to all who ask for it sincerely.
The core message is: God has had enough of the duplicity, disobedience & self-serving power of those who would dare to 'speak in His Name'. All prophecied regarding the destruction of the Vatican & its secular allies will now be done.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@crabstu Sadly, you are spouting the Opus Dei 'company song', equating the truth of what was revealed from God at LaSalette & Fatima (further confirmed by Garabandal & Akita) with "old myths".
History is only understood, in its core reality, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit....which Opus Dei lacks & rejects.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 You said, "You are spouting the Opus Dei 'company song"....which Opus Dei lacks and rejects. NOW THAT is an example of an ad hominem. Textbook as well (guilt by association).
crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu If the shoe fits.......
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 You said "If the shoe fits..."
You are about a size 15 in daftness then.
crabstu 1 year ago
@crabstu Opus Dei - which is Ecclesiastical Freemasonry - its predecessors & current many front organization s have long had a vested interest in either suppressing, 'editing', or denying the reality of what God has spoken to men though Mary. Unless of course they can use it to their advantage......
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 And albino monks are burrowing under your house as we speak. Be afraid.
crabstu 1 year ago 22
@crabstu Dan Brown was well paid for his services....and Opus Dei came out smelling like a rose. A wonderful ruse: using reverse publicity for image enhancement!
The only thing true in Brown's works is the power, hegemony, greed, & complete lack of the love of Christ or faith in Him exhibited by Opus Dei & the Vatican.
All else is pure fiction.
19lfm12 1 year ago
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@19lfm12 said: "The only thing true in Brown's works is the power, hegemony, greed, & complete lack of the love of Christ or faith in Him exhibited by Opus Dei & the Vatican.
All else is pure fiction."
---------------------------
Of course. [rolls eyes]
crabstu 1 year ago 10
@19lfm12 said: The only thing true in Brown's works is the power, hegemony, greed, & complete lack of the love of Christ or faith in Him exhibited by Opus Dei & the Vatican.
All else is pure fiction.
------------------------------
Of course. [rolls eyes]
crabstu 1 year ago 18
@crabstu i assume your a "christian".
the catholics in america ran 90% of this countrys private schools at its peek in 1970. today its still almost half. 16% of hospital beds are in catholic hospitals. if this evil group of people have done this amazing selfless charity and you and yoru church do less what does that make you?
ned262626 8 months ago
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@ned262626 I think you have misread my words. I'm a defender of the Church, the One, Holy, CATHOLIC and Apostolic Church.
crabstu 8 months ago
3 million Catholics died in the holocaust and people have the (bigoted) nerve to say Catholicism and Nazism were in cahoots . i think they are holocaust deniers.
ned262626 1 year ago 11
@ned262626
Amen!
Jacobitess 1 year ago
@ned262626 Relations between the Vatican and the Wilhelmstrasse were tense, but bishops in France and Croatia (with some saintly exceptions, like Aloizije Stepinac) enthusiastically supported Hitler and the fascist regimes he propped up. The German bishops were a mixed bag. Most disliked the Nazis on general principle, but not too many went out of their way to oppose them.
moogamax 1 year ago
@moogamax Mr. Stephinac was an overt Nazi supporter, as was the entire Croatian church organization. What the hierachy approved of & enabled their was from hell itself.
Stephinac was no saint.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 I'll agree with you on two points. First, in the years leading up to the war, Zagreb diocesan newspapers printed opinion pieces that ran along the lines of "Why Serbs Aren't Real Human Beings." As archbishop, Stepinac could have ordered the editors to tone it down, but he didn't.
Two, many of his defenders argue that Tito fabricated the most damning evidence against him. The premise that communists always lie is the basis of all Holocaust denial.
moogamax 1 year ago
@moogamax Hence the point. Stephinac' deeds of ommission are as damning as would be those of commission. Amusingly, Tito was Catholic:)
Very, very few Croats -clerical or lay- resisted or in any way tried to halt the hatred & atrocities. The clergy & hierarchy were leading the ppl & gave no moral leadership. And then there are the clerics who actively did or lead the deeds of war crimes against Serbs, Jews & others.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@moogamax What about the Lutheran bishops? What about the 65 million Lutherans that voted for Hitler? Catholic Bavaria voted for teh Katholic Centre Partei.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody The pro-Nazi Protestants were the worst. They were whores even in their theology. As I'm sure you know, many of them bought into junk Bible scholarship that depicted Jesus as an Aryan, and an anti-Semite to boot.
moogamax 1 year ago
@moogamax "....scholarship that depicted Jesus as an Aryan, and an anti-Semite to boot."
The Catholics are guilty of this long before the Reformation, as it was the Vatican which invented anti-Semetism, founded in the virtual de facto 'dogma' that "all Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus".
This was taught to generationsof Catholics, right up to the present day.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 The notion that Jesus was ethnically distinct from Jews of later times was a conceit of Protestant scholars of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. The Catholic Church never adopted it. In 1965, the Second Vatican Council formally absolved the Jewish people of deicide and denounced the idea that God had cursed them. Pope John Paul II went so far as to say that God's covenant with the children of Abraham "has never been broken."
Please, no more half-truths
moogamax 1 year ago
@moogamax Anti-Semetism was invented & intergenerationally taught as de facto 'doctrine' to Catholic laity for centuries. Scapegoating the Jewish ppl as a race for the death of Christ. It has been both official & unofficial 'policy'. From time to time some pope or cardinal will show real of pretended sympathy for the Jews. Then the racism starts up again, stirred up by the clergy or laity, with full knowledge of their superiors.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@FFFFbody As you do not comprehend, let me repeat: the results of elections via secret ballot have NO demographics, as the identity of the voters is secret. Even if those figures were 'true', they are conjecture, not fact. So exactly who voted for what is unknown. Thus one has no way to factually know how many Catholic, Protestants, Jews, or Martians voted for 'x'.
The subject is German Catholics, nor Lutheran clerics.
Focus Pinky.....focus.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 According to historian Thomas Childers,"The Nazis failed to make major inroads into the electoral strength of the Catholic Center Party; in fact, the latter's vote increased slightly between the elections of 9/1930 and 7/1932. Also, the National Socialists hailed from east, central and north Germany." Source: same as above. So, voters for the party did not come from the SOUTH i.e. Catholic Bavaria.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody Those who make apologies for Catholic Nazis & Nazi Collaborators, regardless of what 'source" (true or not) is cited are blind to both the material reality of the overwhelming Catholic participation in Nazi atrocities, & the horrid spiritual reality.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Historians work to establish the historical record. The author of the book I used is German of all things. Your the one thats blind. You make up your own shit, refute documented evidence, and uses sources that are "secret" which renders them suspicious. I can see keeping sources secret about events that have happened past 25 years or so. But 60+years? Your on your heels aren't you? As far as the "overwhelming Catholic participatio" of atrocities. Consider this: To be continues.....
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@19lfm12 The election of Cardinal Pacelli (Pius XII) is not accepted with favor in Germany because he was alwyas opposed to Nazism." Berliner Morgenpost, a Nazi organ, 3/3/1939, the day after PiusXII was elected. " "In a manner never known before, the Pope has repudiated the Nazi New European Order. It is true, the Pope does not refer to us by name, but his speech is one long attack on everything we stand for. Here he is clearly speaking on behalf of the Jews." Gestapo report on Pius XII 1942
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@19lfm12 "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the lilence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas. He is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dards to raise his voice at all." NY Times editorial, 12/25/1941."The last tiny islands of neutrality are so hemmed in and overshadowed by war and fear that no one but the Pope is still able to speak aloud. The Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism. He left no doubt that the Nazi war aims are also irreconcilable with.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@19lfm12 with his own conception of a Christian peace." NYTimes, editorial, 12/25/1941. "The Holy Father sent by hand a letter to the bishops instructing them to lift the enlosure from the convents & monasteries so that they could become refuges for the Jews. I know of one convent where the sisters slept in the basement, giving up their beds to Jewish refugees." Israil Zolli, the Chief Rabbi of Rome during WWII, on Pius XII's activity on behalf of the Roman Jewish community. From his own bio...
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody That's all nice & cuddly......but there would have been no need for that if his immediate predecessors in the Petrine Office had been obedient to God.
Were that the case, there would have never been any Nazis...no WWII....and no Shoah.
The Church has the blood of countless millions on its hands, for which it shall account to God.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Why I Became A Catholic. I have a lot more, even a quote from Europes most prominent Jew and the 20th C's genius: Albert Einstein. The only one that is going to be apolgizing is you for being a charlatan and spreading lies against His church. But I think your ego will prevent you from that. Won't it? Stay thirsty my friend.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody It is truly irrelevant who was speaking in glowing terms about the Vatican in re WWII. They are either: a) lying, b) ignorant, c) brainwashed, or d) paid for their services. Or words have been put in their mouths posthumously. Which ever option applies....
The 'church' I belong to is what Christ founded, which owns no real estate, money or worldly power - as it is spiritual family of all who believe in & follow Christ.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 @19lfm12 I can tell I'm intellectually superiour to you; and I'm not going to commit anymore of my time to this. By the way, if you want to believe in Christ only and bible only, that's fine. Just remember, the Catholic Church pre-dates the bible (NT anyway) The Church wrote the bible (NT). In 397 the Council of Carthage decided on the "finality" of the bible,and forwared it to the Supreme Pontiff to cement. So your bible was written by the very thing you detest. Stay thirsty my friend.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody 1)How humble thou art...
2) The Roman Catholic Church as we know it, headed by the Vatican is a 100% man-made entity, created in 325AD
3) NT Scriptures were in written form within a few years of Christ's Ascension. They were brought to other nations (i.e. Egypt) in the 40s. The Vatican heavily edited & intentionally mistranslated Scripture to reinforce their hegemony
4) God wrote the 'Bible', not the Vatican, using human instruments.
50 I have plenty of liquid, thank you...
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Hey buddy, youever heard of Martin Luthers book "On the Jews and their Lies"? In it, he describes them as rats, vermin, polluted race, etc. Luther advocates the burning of synagogues and Jewish books. In 1536 7?he successfully petitioned his price, the Elector of Saxony Martin Frederick to prohibit Jews from living, doing business and even passing through his princip. Sound familiar? You can see why your focused animosity on a 14 year old boy is completely asinine.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody 1) Martin Luther is neither Catholic nor part of the Vatican Administration
2) Anti-Semetic words & deeds were of the Vatican long before 1536, and from whom Luther got such ideas
3) The 14yo boy in question (who joined the HJ at age 10 or earlier) had the audacity to enter a Seminary after his Nazi military service, of which he has NEVER repented or atoned for. And is now 'pope'.
This is a HUGE moral problem!
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 I have historical, documented evidence to back up everything I typed. You have your opinion and "secret" sources. We're done here.P.S. Don't ever take a history course, you'd fail it. Stay thristy my friend.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody 1) I am neither your 'friend' nor am I thirsty
2) Whatever so-called documentation you have is obviously flawed & at variance with historic fact.
3) Nothing I have written is my 'opinion'.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@FFFFbody All one need do is to look at Euro history prior to the Reformation to see what the Church did to the Jews: it made Anti-Semitism into de facto Doctrine, & a social more. Christians were intergenerationally taught to hate & persecute Jews, with the overt or implicit approval of Church authorities. They were herded into ghettos, forced to convert, tortured or burned at the stake as they were blamed for the Black Death, etc.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Actually no. The scriptures pertaining to the autobiography of Christ, or as we knw it, the Gospels are written decades after the Ascencion. During those times when the Apostles are close to their old age.
avatarspirit57 7 months ago
@ned262626 You mean like when...Josef Ratzinger guarded slave laborers from Dachau? Or when his unit was involved in the forced deportation of Hungarian Jews to the death camps? Or when he was in the 'army barrack in Trauenstein"...which was actually a subcamp of Dachau?
Dachau was known to have the largest number of Catholics.....those honest ones who had the moral courage to resist the regime & help the Jews.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 your a piece of shit.
have a nice life
ned262626 1 year ago
@ned262626 You words indicate that you do not understand the Gospel.....and that you are in Denial of reality, spiritual & mundane.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@ned262626 You words indicate that you do not understand the Gospel.....and that you are in Denial of reality, spiritual & mundane.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@ned262626 Holy sh*t. I read yours and 19lfm12 debate. That guy had a potty mouth.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody The real person with a 'potty mouth" is Josef Alois Ratzinger. As he has overtly & publicly rebuked God; blaspheming Him!
...and you want to support & praise him?
19lfm12 1 year ago
@ned262626 So someone who speaks truth, unmasking reality & exposing propaganda fraud is a 'piece of shit'?
I would submit that the real manure is Ratz & Opus Dei, which put him in power as their front man. And which has fabricated out of whole cloth a complete (though very flimsy....) cover story for Ratzinger's life.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 That's a cheap shot 19lfm12. The entire German Army was conscripted. Think of the alternative the young Ratzinger faced: imprisonment, family would've probably been killed. Even here in America all men at 18 must register with Selective Service or we face $50,000 fine and up to 10 years imprisonment, we can't apply for student loans, etc. Yeah, a real cheap shot indeed.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody Christ promised that those who would be His true followers would endure persecution for their Faith; some even death. One must 'leave all' to follow Him. No collaboration with evil is allowed.
Those who refused military service on religious grounds in the US risked much for Christ. Those who did so in Nazi Germany did even more - as they were resisting involvement in overt evil.
REAL German Christians resisted the Nazis.
Ratz & his family were ardent pro-Nazi......
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 First off, regarding my "potty mouth" comment, I got you mixed up with ned262626. HE was the potty mouth, not you. So, I'm sorry for that. Now, as far as what you typed, you can say whatever about "real German Christians resisted Nazis" I don't care. But your accusation then and now is a cheap shot. "Ratz", as you disrespectfully put it, was a 15 year old kid. Who thinks about "Christianity" and being a "good Christian" at age 15? Also, like I said b4 if you didn't join, you'd die...
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody To demand that those who claim to be Christian act the part is not a cheap shot; it is their duty. Past the age of reason (6 or 7) one is culpable for sin. Thus when he willingly joined the HJ at age 10, then into the senior group at 14, he is culpable for his deeds.
His neighbors were of the White Rose; Catholic resisters. His family did NOT join or help them & were known as being very pro-Nazi.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Go on. What was the White Rose. And what is your source/documented evidence that his family was very pro-Nazi. And what is your source that he guarded a BMW camp for this I believe but I would like to know yoru source, as a starting point.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody In one of Ratz's early stints in the Nazi military, he guarded a BMW factory which was staffed by slave laborers from Dachau, near Munich. All the lies to defend him will not erase this.
There were many resistance elements, of which the White Rose was most famous - and which just happened to include some of the Ratz family neighbors. Someone turned them in to the Gestapo......a retired former SS employee makes a good suspect.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Hey buddy, I'll leave Jesus out of this, sure no problem. I've read my past posts and realize I should've been more articulate regarding the 1932 elections. Germany is predominantly Lutheran (the Reformation started in Germany afterall) but Catholics mainly live in Bavaria. Bavaria stayed loyale to the Church. Before the 1932 elections Pope Pius XI wrote an encyclical Mit Brennadeir Sorge which outlined the evils of Nazism. It was read fomr every pulpit in Germany, begging the Germans
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody 1) Germany is equally Catholic & Protestant; each about 30% of total population
2) Nazism was a political movement which originated IN Bavaria, which is Catholic, & OF Catholics who comprised its membership. Protestants joined as it spread.
3) Bavaria stayed 'loyal' to something, but it was not Christ.
4) Had German Bishops properly evangelized,long before the 1930s, there would have been no Nazi party.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Counterpoint #1 and #3) See source below Counterpoint #2) Your right. But the question is why in Bavaria? Because its Catholicism or because of its geographical cohesiveness to his native Austria? Counterpoint 4) Their would not be a Nazi party if the U.K. and the nasty French didn't set the stage for W W II in 1919 and Article 231 (War Guilt Clause) plus the humilation dictated from Versaille Treaty. Source for 1&3 Hammer or Anvil? Modern Germany 1648-Present from Holger H. Herwig
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@19lfm12 I believe you about the BMW factory. But my problem with your posistion is you ignore the millions of Lutherans that voted for the Nazis, and focus on one 11 year old boy that was according to law, was conscripted. Now I know Christians follow a "higher law". I see your arguement. But to harp on a lad.....What about you? Are you a U.S. male? Did you sign up for Selective Service at age 18?
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody 1) Ratz was 10, if not younger (you could join as young as 6), when he willingly (by his own words...) joined the HJ. Joining at 10 was law in 1936, so he joined no later then April 1937...but willingly.
This 'lad' can be linked to potential war crimes in his Nazi military service. As he never repented of or even showed one shred of remorse for his involvement, he should never have been Ordained,much less made 'pope'.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@FFFFbody Another half-truth. During that phase of his national service, Ratzinger was a Hitler Youth auxiliary in the Luftwaffe's anti-aircraft division. His unit only guarded the factory in the sense that its members manned searchlights and artillery pieces, hoping to shoot down the bombers that had flown from England to destroy it. You're making it sound like he and his buddies were standing over the workers with rifles and whips.
moogamax 1 year ago
@moogamax Yup, I figured buddy.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody Sorry. Kick that one over to 19lfm12.
moogamax 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Sorry, one more thing. Do you know the name of his neighbors?
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody That info will not be revealed here.
Yet it is factually true that some living neighbors/eyewitnesses to the reality of the Ratzingers said things of them quite contrary to the Opus Dei 'company song' about him. They are speaking the truth.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 I respect you not revealing your source for I assume it's a living person rather than a book or something. But I naturally ask the question: Does this source have an axe to grind himself? If this person has an axe to grind, will his emotions hatred? muddy the historical record? I'll never know, will I?
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody The recorded testimony of elderly eyewitnesses has no agenda other then to state truth: the Ratzinger family was very PRO-Nazi, & were known as such. They had the opportunity to do otherwise, as they would have been aware of the Catholic resistance, but 'made another choice'.
When you see something which is 'too good to be true' -a human painted as sinless & pure with absolutely no faults of blemishes - there is usually something VERY wrong when you 'check under the hood'.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Point to me in the direction of the recorded history. And the Church does not teach that the Pontiff is sinless and pure. I think you just have a genuine misunderstanding of papal infallibility.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody If time permitted, one could easily cite numerous persons, groups, writings, hymns et.al (all with Imprimatur...) which proclaim a pope to have blanket infallibility, beyond question, having absolute power over everything on earth, & presented as both representing AND being Christ.
That is massive LIE & spiritual deception, purportrated on countless generations of Catholics.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 You want a suggestion? According to U.S and German government records of the demographics covering religion in Germany show from a population of 80 million Germans, 65 million of them were Lutheran, and only 15 million were Roman Catholic. In the 1932 elections, ONLY Catholic Bavaria voted for the Katholic Centre Partie. The rest of Germany voted for the Nazis. You can't dispute this, this is historical fact. Don't you think Lutherans and/or Lutheranism are to blame?
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody Your figures are both false & misleading. Currently Catholic & Protestants each have c. 30% of the populace. But you cannot compare this to pre WWII Germany: as its territory has changed. So too the demographics. As with the US, there is NO way to know exactly who voted for what, as ballots are secret.....
1) the scenario was far more complex then what you paint; 2) Lutheran laity are not subject to the hegemonic control which Catholic Bishops have over their flocks......
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Ha, just because you disagree with what I typed doesn't mean I'm misleading. I've read all your comments here, and on your personal YT page, and it's clear you have animosity toward organized religion to begin with. So, how can you have a legitimate debate with someone, even when I use government records. And you refute? True- elections are secret but political parties no what regions vote what.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@FFFFbody The figures you cited were NOT of the 1930s; they are current. The crafty way you wrote implied they were both current & 'infallible'. Election results DO NOT show the 'views' of an ethnic or religious group; only of those who actually voted.....
Someone who is very dear to me, of global historical & metaphysical importance, also had 'animosity toward organized religion': Jesus Christ.
If you have a problem with this, then take it up with Him....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@FFFFbody Factually, there were MANY young boys (and girls) who resisted joining the HJ in Nazi Germany, knowingly risking their lives for their moral & spiritual standards. They were both Catholic & Protestant; & they were REAL Christians, compared to the likes of the Ratzingers!
These youthful resisters did many other brave things during the war: stealing food for their parents & for Jews in hiding. They have my respect - not Ratzinger!
19lfm12 1 year ago
@ned262626 The only Catholics who died in the Nazi camps were resisters. But many times more then these were gleeful Catholic supporters of Naziism, which was given birth in Catholic Bavaria....by 'good Catholics', clerical AND lay.
Factually, many bishops in Germany, Czech, Hungary, Croatia, France, Austria were pro-Nazi.
Dachau, the camp with the most Catholic inmates had a young Josef Ratzinger guarding its slave laborers at a BMW plant.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@ned262626 The only Catholics who were persecuted by the Nazis were the ones who obeyed Christ & resisted the Nazis. THEY were the ones sent to the camps to be worked to death, tortured & killed.
The 'good Catholics' who obeyed their Bishop/Nazi collaborators & did NOT resist the Nazis, had no problems. Many of them were gleeful collaborators, turning in Catholic resisters.
19lfm12 1 year ago
the pope signed a concordat with hitler... thats like a deal ,, in writing,, joining forces as it where... and now the church says it was against hitler,, right!
rock9711 1 year ago
@rock9711 The catholic church was one of the first organizations to denounce Naziism publicly. If I recall, this happened even before the war and the first concentration camps. Because of the Pope's denunciation, catholic priests were treated with the same hatred as jews. The pope even allowed Jews to take refuge in the Vatican.
ercpkr 1 year ago 18
@ercpkr
The polish priests were the ones to do that. What abut the ones on his side ?
TheThordir 1 year ago
@ercpkr The Vatican engaged in overt duplicity. Signing the Concordat which enabled the power of the Nazis, & pretending at the same time to oppose them. They betrayed millions of souls into the hands of the Nazis....and then the Communists.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@ercpkr Naziism was created by Catholics in very Catholic Bavaria. This is historic truth.
Note: no Catholic bishops went to the camps. Only laity & priests who dared to resist & dissent from the Nazis. Historic fact. The far larger percentage of Catholics gleefully collaborated with the Nazis in many countries.
Ratzinger guarded slave laborers at Dachau, the camp with the largest number of Catholic resisters; including priests, nuns, brothers, & laity - who were brutalized.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@rock9711 Oh, you mean that Concordat in 1933 that "Cardinal Pacelli (later Pius XII), told the British minister to the Holy See that he had signed the treaty with a pistol at his head."
That Concordat which Hitler nicely sidestepped in 1937 after Pope Pius XI published an anti-Nazi encyclical by accusing priests to be pedophiles.
Uh huh...Hmm...
nuntym 1 year ago
@nuntym We have all seen the photos: there was no pistol to Pacelli's head.He was doing the will of what he served.
By their disobedience to God's requests, the Vatican is directly responsible - morally & spirirtually - for WWII & the Shoah. They could have been averted, had they done what God requested. But they disobeyed & some of the Vatican Administration overtly cooperated with the Nazis. In German, France, Czech, Croatia, Hungary, Austria.......
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Uhm, I do not think anyone except you understood that Cardinal Pacelli never meant a LITERAL "gun to the head."
And I do wonder. Even if you have the evidence to support your claim of "some of the Vatican Administration" cooperating with the Nazis, I do doubt that those were members of the "Vatican Administration" at all. Do you know that the Vatican doesn't even have a diplomatic service, and cannot make embassies to other countries? So I was wondering how you got that idea.
nuntym 1 year ago
@nuntym of course they have a diplomatic service, Pius XII had been Secty of State before his election, there are papal nuncios in nearly every country - John XXIII was a nuncio to Turkey, possibly Romania if I remember rightly.
ciroalb3 11 months ago
@ciroalb3 The papal nuncio is the representative of the Holy See, not the Vatican State.
nuntym 11 months ago
@nuntym The Holy See is the Vatican State. The term "Holy See" even though religious, it is used as an official title of the State in Diplomacy. It is quite the trick on behalf of the Vatican to make the whole world call it holy, because the world has to call it like that if it's the state's name. Even UN and Islamic countries refer to it as the "Holy See"
Grmario85 5 months ago
@rock9711 If you have doubts of what I just posted, google these:
"MercatorNet: How the Nazis engineered a paedophile priests scare"
"An Antidotal History - John Jay Hughes - National Review Online"
nuntym 1 year ago
@nuntym Hey buddy. I've got some sources you could use next time you run up against someone concerning the Church, Nazis, Holocaust, etc. If you want.
FFFFbody 1 year ago
@rock9711 Umm, Actually, the ones who know and say the Church was against Hitler
have ALWAYS been (good, well-informed) Jews. Like RABBI David G Dalin,
in his book the Myth of Hitler's Pope. Do your research before opening
your mouth.
CorieFaulkner 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Why the hell would Hitler want to kidnap Pacelli? Even before he was Pope Pacelli worked in Germany and favoured the Nazis. All you had to do was mention Jews or Communists and you knew where he stood. See 'Massacre in Rome' or 'Butterfly's Tongue' for a local fact-and-fiction perspective....
sebreathnach 2 years ago
Hitler's plot to kidnap the Pope is well documented. Historian Harold L Deutsch first wrote about it in a detailed fashion in "The Conspiracy Against Hitler". Pope Pius XII was working as an intermediary for German ant-Nazi forces in an effort to overthrow Hitler. The Brits were involved, too. It's really a shame that the truth of what really happened during that time has been undermined by communist propagandists because the truth is far more interesting.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
HammerofHeretics. No it is not. Pius XII was good friends with the nazi regime. Your own catholic theologians and the jesuits who wrote the history of Pius XII even admitt that the so called "plan to kidnap the pope" was a hoax. It was British propaganda created by British intelligence agents in order to foment catholic opposition of nazism.
There was never any nazi plan to kidnap the pope.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
I suggest you see the work of British historian Owen Chadwick who found evidence that the British Political Warfare Executive (PWE) "found it excellent propaganda to put it about that Hitler was just about to kidnap the Pope". The British propaganda office fabricated at least two German wireless broadcasts in support of the theory, building upon a pre-existing "rumour".
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
I recommend you read "A Special Mission" by Dan Kurzman. He not only covers Wolff's role in the kidnapping plot, he had interviews with Jesuit Priest Peter Gumpel who has full access to the Vatican archives regarding these events. Gumpel, who would have no reason to defend Pius XII if he had been "friends" with the Nazi's, since Gumpel lost family members under Nazi persecution, has confirmed that there were indeed plans to carry out a kidnapping, which were later aborted for tactical reasons.
HammerofHeretics 1 year ago
David Alvarez and Robert A. Graham (the Jesuit priest-historians chosen by pope Paul VI to edit the ADSS) concur with Chadwick, concluding that "the evidence concerning an alleged plot to kidnap the pope is, at best, mixed...The few bits of credible evidence that do exist suggest that, in fact, there was no plan to move against the Pope."
So basically you are falling for propaganda. The rise of Hitler would have been impossible without Cardinal Pacelli's signing of the Reichskonkordat.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
Sorry, pal, but Harold Deutsch talked to the person who warned the Vatican about the plot and he did it right after the war when he covered the Nuremburg trials. He was about as close to the action as you could get. I'm afraid you are the one who is falling for false history.
HammerofHeretics 1 year ago
Laugh, he talked to somebody who "warned the vatican about the plot". I am sorry to tell you but it was all propaganda to create anger towards the nazi regime. This is why it is known as the "ALLEGED plot to kidnap Pope Pius XII" . Hitler would have NEVER thought of crossing the papacy as his most ardent supporters and Europes's most die hard fascists (such as Fransico Franco and Ante Pavelić) were fantically catholic.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
The person involved in the plot's name was Karl Otto Wolff. In 1944, when the allies liberated Rome, he presented Pius with documents detailing Hitler's plot to invade the Vatican. These documents are in the Vatican archives. Just because you have not seen the full facts does not mean they do not exist. As I mentioned, Harold Deutsch talked to Wolff immediately after the war, when details of what happened were still fresh. It was Wolff who talked Hitler out of the plot.
HammerofHeretics 1 year ago
Jesus Christ man, I know who Karl Wolff is, I am a historian. He was a devout roman catholic and for this Hitler assigned him to Mussolini's Italian government. He was a collaborator with Germany's catholic Vatican diplomat Ernst von Weizsäcker. There is little doubt in my mind that Wolff was working for Allen Dulles the director of the CIA whose nephew Avery Dulles was a jesuit priest and high level cardinal.
You are mentally trapped by the jesuits mass web of intrigue.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
Your mind seems to be wandering a bit now. How does anything you've just said refute that Wolff provided the Vatican with evidence of Hitler's plot? This information remains in the Vatican archives and will soon be released for all to see. Are you denying that this evidence exists? Because it seems to me that anyone who has not reviewed these files (and that's just about everyone but Fr. Peter Gumpel, does not have the necessary evidence to make a sound judgment on the case.
HammerofHeretics 1 year ago
You do not find it at all relevant that the information regarding an alleged nazi plot to kidnap the pope came from a papist? The papist always try to claim that the pope was scared of hitler in order to justify the fact that Piux XII never did anything significant to stop Hitler or never spoke against the mass murder of jews.
It is a way for the papacy to distance itself from what is historically known as catholic roman fascism.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
You've rather tipped your hand with the use of the term "papist"--a word that is used only ironically by Catholics and with venom by anti-Catholics.
The Catholic Church certainly did not have to invent a defense against it's involvement in Nazism, the fact that Pius XII saved over 3/4 of a million Jews through his direct intervention is proof enough of that.
HammerofHeretics 1 year ago
Laugh it wasnt 3/4 of a million jews. I am aware that they hid some jews in the vatican so that the papacy could later distance itself from the holocaust. But it doesnt change the facts. The nazi's themselves protected and worked with certain Wertvolle Juden (useful jews) and Judenrats. They even helped certain zionist jews ship others to palestine. The fascist catholic Ustashi committed genocide on the orthodox serbs in the name of catholicism. Forced conversions in the 20th century!
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
In 1967, Israeli diplomat Pindas Lipide estimated that Pope Pius XII "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."
Pius XII and the Jews, by Rabbi David G. Dalin
HammerofHeretics 1 year ago
Pope Pius XII (and his successors) had/have many jewish coadjutors and pawns such as the Chief rabbi of Rome (Israel Zolli) and that murderous jewess Golda Meir. It is also known that certain zionists such as Golda Meir exaggerated the scope of Pius XII's protection of certain jews in order to gain favor with the pope so that he would recognize the newly formed state of Israel.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago
So it would appear you are an anti-Semite. This is deliciously ironic. It reminds me of the Communists who created the black legend surrounding Pope Pius XII in the first place. A worse record for abusing Jews you could not find and they were accusing the person who saved more Jews than any other a collaborator in the Holocaust.
HammerofHeretics 1 year ago
I appear to be an anti-semite? I will take that as a compliment as it means I am a good Christian. Any informed Christian would work against the anti-Christian "jewish" international which does nothing but try to degrade and demoralize Christian and national morality.
WorshipInTruth 1 year ago