If God had ordered us to commit any sin as "killing your own child" he wouldn't even be existing as a God. Does that make more sense? Or do you think God is EVIL?
The potter has the right to destroy his defective pots. God loves us and wants the best for us. Like children, we don't even know what this 'best' is. God was testing Abraham to see if he put God first before his family. He never would have let Abraham sacrifice his son. He was so moved by Abraham's love that His own son agreed to be sacrificed. With abortions, we sacrifice our children for our convenience every day. What hypocrisy!
@marykfilms you think of humans as defective pots then quibble about abortion? Really? More defective Christian logic. Why would a loving god ask anyone to kill anyone to prove something? God also killed all of Job's kids to prove a point--oh yeah--but he repalced them and that made it all okay. Don't know 'bout you but my kids are pretty irreplaceable.
@Pentagon1337 Please, your argument is invalid. If you want your point to get across, simply state why someone who would kill their child is an 'idiot'. It's unjust of you to say "go fuck yourself", that gives no meaning nor insight. Expand on your thought to make people actually read your comment and say 'that guy is actually really smart." Instead what I see you and many others do on youtube is come up with something valid, but not having a decent argument to make others see why.
Check out my videos "Religion is Ridiculous" (specifically Christianity)....Good stuff, rate it! Christians I CHALLENGE you to watch with an open mind. Atheists watch the vids and give them a thumbs up! Help spread the truth!!
OK.. People say he only asked abraham to kill... WRONG! Is anybody forgetting the genocide of the enemies of the Israelites, when he COMMANDED them to kill everybody, including children, but keep virgins... this is only one instance of KILLING ORDERED BY GOD. Furthermore, all these commands were given after "thou shall not kill" was revealed to the Israelites. Another point to Christians, God never included Americans or any other culture in salvation FOR THE EXCEPTION OF THE JEWS! GET YOUR FACTS
I'm reminded of a resent story of a man who murdered, dismembered, and cannibalized a passenger on a Canadian Greyhound bus. His reason: he heard the voice of God telling him that the passenger was a force of evil who was going to attack him. Now, imagine if that incident took place in biblical times, they would have written stories about how that man upheld the will of God to bravely fight the devil.
God, if he exists, must surely be the enemy of humankind. Always ordering humans to kill other humans? If God wants someone dead, let him do it himself and stop recruiting humans to do his dirty work.
finally check mate religion, mauro biglino, a former translater for the vatican, has translated the original old testament without bastardizing it, like the one you guys read which is from around 700ad.
your god is fake (in a way lol) and the original writings from YOUR book prove it.
nothing you say can change what has been translated, you have been lied to.
thumbs up so all religious people with an ounce of intellect can see for themselves
i can't believe people are defending this. "he only asked one person" etc. It goes to show how malleable the human mind is and how religion, is indeed, 'the opiate of the masses'.
Karl Marx, aw yeah. That guy is boss. And yes, that is quite frightening to think that people can be so easily manipulated like that. Personally, I just don't understand how people can believe that some dude with a stick can communicate with burning shrubbery. I don't know what it is, just doesn't quite seem right to me...
@TheDharmawheel if you read further in the Bible, it says, in various different books, that God never intended for Abraham to sacrifice his own son. God was testing Abraham's faith. And Abraham was faithful. When he left his servants to go and prepare the sacrifice, he told them, "we'll be back." So it seems that Abraham knew he wasn't going to kill his own son.
@2ScoopsofChad seriously? "testing his faith". So even if he didn't intend for him to actually do it he wanted to know that he WOULD if he asked him. That is fucked up in of itself is it not?
i can't believe you are even trying to justify this immoral tripe.
@Eion7177 So what? The commandments didn't exist therefore it's ok? You're describing a god of subjective morality. You're saying it's only right and wrong when God says so. That's not objective.
@TheDharmawheel You all act like God asks people to kill there kids on a daily basis. To the best of my knowledge God has only asked one person to kill there son. I think it was Abraham
@Eion7177 Let's be honest here, if I ask you to kill your own son, would you do it? Would you worship me after this? That's incredibly immoral, regardless of whom asks. Sorry for using you and your son in the example but that show how chocking this can be.
@Eion7177 i never said that at all but if he does it once then who's to say he wouldn't do it again? do you claim to know gods mind? Who's to say people that kill their kids and say god told them to are lying or wrong? it happens all the time. How do you know it wasn't god? saying "he wouldn't do that" is crap as you can't know that for sure as you can't know gods plan or mind.
@jillum89 you're approach of learning english is a bit too cerebral, besides, it's fluent, not fluid. Fluid is a damn liquid. Just watch movies and talk to people a lot, avoid trying to learn english through courses or someone teaching you. Bye forever
And hell yea, I'd kill my own Son if the God who crteated Everything (including me and my son) asked me to do so. Abraham obviously knew there was a God. God was talking to him. If I knew there was a God and he asked me to kill my own son, I would do it. How do you expext to go against God? Just because you think killing is wrong/horrible or whatver doesn't mean everybody else thinks the same thing. That is your opinion.There is no such thing as right and wrong.!, without a God existing.
@DeviantPsyche1 your a fucking retard. you need some fucking help if you killed your son because god told you too. if you hear some deep ass fucking voice in your head saying "this is god kill your son" you seriously would? you need some fucking help, even if "god" told me to, I'd tell him to fuck off. and fuck you, you sick retard chicken fucker. killing your own kid because some god tells you too is wrong on so many levels.
@DeviantPsyche1 killing is wrong, it's sometimes necessary but it's always wrong. you would destroy everything dear to you for nothing but fear for your own skin. selfish, disgusting christian morality.
@dev0n72 Right and wrong, good and evil don't exist, unless you believe in God. Just go think about it. What is good and what is evil. It's a philisophical question that has no answer. Unless you believe that all human beings are do have a sense of right and wrong, then the next question is where does this sense come from.... The bible does say we were created in God's image.
@DeviantPsyche1 Good and Evil is a choice and it's up to responsible humans beings to make that choice based on the goodness of their own selves. And not just believe in lies.
@DeviantPsyche1 How would know it was God telling you to do so? If God has a tendency to order infanticide, how would you distinguish God from Satan? Wait a minute! Satan never ordered the murder of children. Satan is better than God! Woohoo!
WOW, the caller says, "God has no Morality" With this he is claiming that a "Right" and "Wrong" exsist and that he knows what they are and God does not. If there is no God then Right/Good and Wrong/bad don't even exsist. Don't confuse right and wrong with "MAN-MADE laws created out of Greed." If you don't understand what Man-made laws created out of greed are I could explain else where(not enough room here). AND secondly God, from the start is TESTing Abraham's Loyalty
@Eion7177 And you view this "god" as loving and just? It's just a made up story like the story of Job who no matter how bad made him suffer he stayed loyal. It;s to get other weak minded fools to follow. I call them sheeple.
God wouldn't ask to kill his son, because they are make of God's Image. The Devil sometimes disguises and misguide Humanity to cause them to believe false rules and such.
@TheDharmawheel Exactly. If some god told me to kill my son, I`d tell that god to go fuck himself. Anything less would be immoral and inhuman. Abraham - if he even existed at all - was a subservient, useless, immoral, inhuman monster if he would obey that command. And his god would have been even worse.
@DeviantPsyche1 So, if god told you to kill your own child, you would do it? If so, you are morally bankrupt. I would tell god to go fuck himself. I am more moral than your god, and more moral than you if you think that the "test" was good just because god gave it. You need to wake up. The god of the bible is a monster who deserves no respect at all. I've read the bible. Several times. Why do you think that would change minds? Its the reason I'm an atheist.
This is a Public Service Announcement: If you know of any people, that have children, who vehemently defend Filicide. Contact Child Protective Services, or similar agencies, in your area immediately. Before these f@cktards start hearing voices in their heads telling them to sacrifice their kids for their god.
@TheIncognitusMe "Morality comes from religion" Also, the Bible gets its morality from people, since it's a book of fiction made by people to control more primitive people. So there is another flaw in your argument.
@Eion7177 1) That's completely manipulative and raises a whole slew of other problems. 2) Abraham didn't know why god wanted him to kill his son, he blindly agreed. The point is that that kind of behavior/thinking based on blind faith is inexcusable and morally reprehensible.
This is probably the most retarded response to this but "The bible was written by people a few centuries ago, Health in most people wasn't as good at that time. Also, Schyzophrenia was at its peak around the time it was written, the conditions people were living in could have caused hallucinations which is why later on in history when they improved ,less people believed and no one had visions of god anymore" The bible is unreliable to say the least
Many people claim they hear entities and unseen forces terrorize them and even claim them to be "God".They slaughter people heartlessly and say that it is for "God". These circumstances do no consist with the bible. gods from other religions required personal sacrifice such as killing of innocent people. The bible says God wiped out many people who killed for idols and their gods. God was showing he does not need this. God made a trusted man prove it. After Abraham, no one else was or is needed.
@adrianchriste6 this is EXTREMELY unfortunate for Isaac, but this is my understanding of it. Although i must admit, that family guy episode on this was hilarious
I can imagine a murderer in front of a grand jury claiming god told him/her to kill...........I don't think heaven will be an option, more like a electric chair or lethal injection.
If the purpose of this tawdry little tale is to provide an example of ultimate sacrifice by Abe, then it is a half-arsed attempt. If Abe had said FU to god and sacrificed his OWN life instead of his son, THAT would have been infinitely more of a sacrifice. Abe would have pwned god in the morailty stakes if he'd done that.As it stands, Isaac was the one who would have paid the REAL sacrifice.
What is scary is that fundamentalist religious groups like Mormons take this shit literally, and have political agendas. They literally believe that their leaders talk to god and are infallible. So if in their heirarchy it was ordered for them to do something so terrible as kill someone they would likely do it.
Religion is fucking terrible.
It disgusts me when I see all these christian wackos breeding like crazy and brainwashing their kids with their dangerously insane bullshit.
If God has all power and he can do anything like the man on the phone stated, why couldn't he himself kill tat persons son? Why does the kids parent have to kill him?
Religion and the Bible seems totally absurd to me! I do believe that there is something great, magical, and beautiful to our existence, but I do not believe what the Bible tells us. We as human beings do seem to be special from everything else, even though some human beings don't always act very special. Other times we seem just as dumb and self destructive as dumb animals! And the arrogance and ignorance of "Christians" is unbelievable! They will punish you in a second for speaking against God
No, I wouldn't. I would maybe try to follow the order, but I know in the end God would stop me like He stopped Abraham... Thats also why God would never order me to kill my child, He knows that I know how the story ends.. I would advise atheists to focus on overcoming fanatisicsm, rather than trying to prove all believers are lunatics.
@zragisha And what if god didn't stop you? What if god let you kill your kid? What if god decided it was time to change things up again like he did by sending Jesus? Maybe he decided that the world was too messed up and needed to be purged and it all starts with your kid? That's god's will. Are you going to go against god's will or are you going to obey it?
@pyrobryan The God I believe in, never changes His will (which the salvation of our souls), but fulfils it, step by step. I go against it often enough, whenever I follow "my own" will, or my arrogance, my egoism, my pride and so on. I don't believe I'm pure enough for God to adress to me directly in this life already, so I'd most probably assume a demon is trying to deceive me, and beg Christ to have mercy on me... To me these questions sound like "What if granma had balls?"
@zragisha So in one reply you would follow the order with confidence that god would stop you, then in the next reply you would assume it was a demon and not follow the order.
In all reality this world would be 100x better off without any humans whatsoever.
So I think it really is the most logical frame of thought for a rational person, especially considering we are talking about the lives of billions of species not just our own. Are you selfish enough that you would pathetically protect humanity from obliteration at the cost of the entire world? Is our conscience thought really make us more worthy? I hardly think so.
@NeutralExistence what your saying sounds like thought police and extremism and thats if your not saying kill them but if you are then your far gone. im anti theist too but not to that extent. i just want freedom of speech back and to have a voice against religion. i dont think book burning or "ridding" of religious people is the best way to go. i say we just use words and say what the book really says. if most knew they wouldnt follow it. if we did as you say what separates us from them?
Clearly it separates us because we have the insight to actually finish the job.
They get confused by morality's, and visions from "God" as the priests change their interests towards raping another land. Or molesting young boys for pleasure. The fact that we even allow these cults to exist right in front of our eye's in disgusting. The organized religions of this world have gotten away with to much already, letting them further their corruption of our species will cost us.
@NeutralExistence finish the job? what job is that? i think you clearly dont understand religion all the way and are looking at the extremes as all religious views. then again this is how extremists work. you also forget the good parts when it has helped. what you seem to be suggesting almost sounds on the lines of genocide and thought police. there is nothing you can say to justify those things.
I understand perfectly well the good parts, and I have nothing wrong with Hinduism, or Buddhism. However Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Catholicism need to be cleansed from our land. Forever. What is better, to sit by, and watch as our people's get corrupted/exploited by these con's. Or actually try to stop them from doing the same bullshit they have been doing for thousands of years?
Removing the people that get power from these cults are key.
Rules should always be able to be changed. What might be right in this era might be wrong in the next. What might be wrong in this era might be right.
@runeflame16 The CIA, FBI, ATF are completely under Jesuit control. The Jonestown massacre, the Waco massacre and other massacres(including the Twin Towers) were all orchestrated to cause worldwide abhorrence and demonization of any group that seeks to get out from under the control of the worldwide Jesuit influence, domination, subversion and infiltration.
@MrPhantompants Atheism - The belief that nothing from nothing created nothing and nothing magically exploded creating everything and everything made of nothing somehow magically rearranged itself into Dinosaurs.
@zSanosake christianity - the belief that some higher power has existed forever and somehow created the earth from nothing created light (not the sun) and he created man from the dust of the earth and he stole a rib from the men to create the woman and said nothing about dinosaurs because man hadn't discovered them yet i mean god didn't know they were there i mean he put them there to uhm wait fuck
@zSanosake Christianity, the belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
@zSanosake btw atheism doesn't necessarily accept the big bang theory because after all its just a theory its more the disbelief of any god lo lbut you clearly don't understand anything so il let you take the easy path by accepting what a book tells you to after all harry potter and dumbledoor had a party lastnight and i was there
@zSanosake even if there is a god that created everything, that doesn't necessarily mean he is all-loving. In fact, all you have to do is open your eyes and you will see that (:
You guys are too comical. God asked Abraham to kill his child because he wanted to see 1) if Abraham trusted him completely 2) if Abraham is obedient. He didn't want to really kill Abraham child. Look here, God is a spirit, who wants to use us to do tons of wonderful things in our lives, and to further his purpose for the kingdom. There's a reward for that, you know. Because of Abraham's obedience he was made father of many nations, and was given Wealth.
@iwmfwo2010 A bit of a contradiction there, don't you think?
If your god is so "ALLKNOWING" why would he need to test Abraham? Shouldn't he already know where his trus is? And no, there is no way in fuck you can miss-interpret that word.
@Pentagon1337 JESUS CHRIST! cant you 2 just message each other your hate? the rest of the people here would rather not read ur 4 page long flame war :/
I submit that if you are willing to kill your child because a voice tells you to, you need to be locked up in an insane asylum for the rest of your life. Obviously, if you are willing to do such a thing, you are a danger to yourself, society, and especially your children! If it were up to me, I'd track every one of you apologists down and remove your children from an obviously harmful environment. If you defend Abraham, you are an unfit parent. Period.
so he asks Abraham, but at the last minute says, "No wait! I was just playin =)". So he tries a second time and as he watches omnipotently over him he can be heard saying, "Nah, he won't do it.....watch man, not a chance in hell he's gonna do th.... OMG!!!LMFAO He only went and killed his kid! FFS HAHA!"
God wouldn't let u kill ur own child (His creation) if he asked u to! He asked Abraham to do this to test his faith in him! So when Abraham was going to do it God stopped him!
@blessthefall4100 You are missing the point completely. The fact that abraham was willing to kill his own child simply because god says so, and the fact that it was okay because god stopped him, is extremely worrying. It shows that the bible wants us to believe that we have no self-control and we should do anything god says, regardless of consequence and without forethought. What if god told us to blow up africa? Would you do it? What if god didn't stop you?
@blessthefall4100 your missing the point, but isnt your god all knowing, so obviously he would know that abraham would have killed his son if he asked, so why did god ask abraham to kill his own son, when god already knew what abraham was going to do, thts just immoral
If there is a god (which I seriously doubt there is), It would be a god that loves death, pain, misery, fear, torment, sacrifice, rape, war, plagues, murder, genocide, incest etc...but he still loves his followers, and he's also not to fond of dinosaurs :-)
I have spoken to and debated with many Christians, including Pastors and when I ask them this question, virtually all replied that if God told them to kill their child, they would. One Pastor went as far as saying that if God told him to kill his entire family, he would have no hestitation doing so. How sick ! ...biblethumpingatheist.co.uk
@MarineMike97 no, christians are just all the same, they just try to rationally put things, or manipulate sentences to try and make it make sense. or they just word it however it would make sense to them
@BARRlSS yes and im the one fucking with someones belief... just tell me why? why? why are you argueing with me if you think your trying to free christians from what you claim to be stupidity, so now you think your like jesus freeing the people? so that means your christian! yay congrats youve been converted to what you hate welcome to christianity have a nice afterlife!
@MALACHAI39 you said that Isaac agreed to be sacrificed to Jehovah by his father but thats false. Abraham lied to Isaac, saying that he was going to sacrifice a goat on the mount provided by God.
If most Christians really believed in life after death then the killing of ones children in order to send them to the hereafter would be considered a reasonable if unusual act and the funeral would be a joyous affair. The fact that this is not the case speaks volumes about how strong (or weak) the faith of most professed Christians actually is.
I'd make an attempt to kill god before killing my own kids, if I fail I fail, but if I succeed I'd be a much better god that the christian one has ever been. The new first commandment? Thou Shalt Never Hurt Children.
If god asked me to kill my son, I would tell god to "fuck off". I love my son much more than I love god.
Gunner3210 5 hours ago
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Nnnarekkk 12 hours ago
Well maybe he had a good reason, everything that God does is always okay.
shallowbasterd 3 days ago
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fletchernibiru 1 week ago
If God had ordered us to commit any sin as "killing your own child" he wouldn't even be existing as a God. Does that make more sense? Or do you think God is EVIL?
IDoArT362 1 week ago
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IDoArT362 1 week ago
The potter has the right to destroy his defective pots. God loves us and wants the best for us. Like children, we don't even know what this 'best' is. God was testing Abraham to see if he put God first before his family. He never would have let Abraham sacrifice his son. He was so moved by Abraham's love that His own son agreed to be sacrificed. With abortions, we sacrifice our children for our convenience every day. What hypocrisy!
marykfilms 1 week ago
@marykfilms you think of humans as defective pots then quibble about abortion? Really? More defective Christian logic. Why would a loving god ask anyone to kill anyone to prove something? God also killed all of Job's kids to prove a point--oh yeah--but he repalced them and that made it all okay. Don't know 'bout you but my kids are pretty irreplaceable.
sepiasiren 1 week ago
To everyone who would kill their child if God said so: Go fuck yourself. You suck. Die.
The less idiots the better.
Pentagon1337 1 week ago
@Pentagon1337 Please, your argument is invalid. If you want your point to get across, simply state why someone who would kill their child is an 'idiot'. It's unjust of you to say "go fuck yourself", that gives no meaning nor insight. Expand on your thought to make people actually read your comment and say 'that guy is actually really smart." Instead what I see you and many others do on youtube is come up with something valid, but not having a decent argument to make others see why.
PERSIAIOS 1 week ago
@PERSIAIOS l wasn't trying to get a point across. l find in my opinion that anyone who would kill their child for God is fucking retarded.
l don't care if you agree or disagree.
Pentagon1337 1 week ago
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shallowbasterd 3 days ago
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shallowbasterd 3 days ago
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@Pentagon1337 yeah i wouldnt but God would never tell you to do that.
shallowbasterd 3 days ago
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Check out my videos "Religion is Ridiculous" (specifically Christianity)....Good stuff, rate it! Christians I CHALLENGE you to watch with an open mind. Atheists watch the vids and give them a thumbs up! Help spread the truth!!
gasmask4poop 2 weeks ago
I'm with Hitchens on this. If god told me to kill my kid i'd say "fuck you"...
JDillaDudas 3 weeks ago 4
Ok, so murdering children is the requirement for christians to actually be convicted and then incarcerated to an insane asylum...
Isn't that the beauty of the system? The crime must be commited before any action is taken.
InsanityComplex1 3 weeks ago
OK.. People say he only asked abraham to kill... WRONG! Is anybody forgetting the genocide of the enemies of the Israelites, when he COMMANDED them to kill everybody, including children, but keep virgins... this is only one instance of KILLING ORDERED BY GOD. Furthermore, all these commands were given after "thou shall not kill" was revealed to the Israelites. Another point to Christians, God never included Americans or any other culture in salvation FOR THE EXCEPTION OF THE JEWS! GET YOUR FACTS
jbruno1991 3 weeks ago
I'm reminded of a resent story of a man who murdered, dismembered, and cannibalized a passenger on a Canadian Greyhound bus. His reason: he heard the voice of God telling him that the passenger was a force of evil who was going to attack him. Now, imagine if that incident took place in biblical times, they would have written stories about how that man upheld the will of God to bravely fight the devil.
didjargo 3 weeks ago 2
-cries- Asked my mother, she said she'd kill me :(
LOSTKILLERDRAENEI 3 weeks ago
@LOSTKILLERDRAENEI LOL
FINOIWolf 3 weeks ago
God, if he exists, must surely be the enemy of humankind. Always ordering humans to kill other humans? If God wants someone dead, let him do it himself and stop recruiting humans to do his dirty work.
backwoodsninja 1 month ago 21
@backwoodsninja It's been suggested that the god of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael was the Serpent back in the Garden.
TomVodkaCollins 5 days ago
@backwoodsninja WTF is wrong with you God neevr orders to kill people
shallowbasterd 3 days ago
@shallowbasterd
- "WTF is wrong with you God neevr orders to kill people"
And you call yourself a Christian? According to the Bible, God's death toll must exceed two million, and that is just what He did in the Iron Age.
TheAtheistExperience 3 days ago
@TheAtheistExperience Im sorry i didnt know. Im just 10. Thanks for the tip though
shallowbasterd 3 days ago
@TheAtheistExperience Btw are you a Christain or Atheist im a little confused, this is the first video i saw from you
shallowbasterd 3 days ago
@shallowbasterd Obviously, you've never read your Bible.
backwoodsninja 3 days ago
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shallowbasterd 2 days ago
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@backwoodsninja "Obviously, you've never read your Bible."
no im 10! Ive read a kids bible which i can understand =D.
and "your" is "You're" just a tip =D
shallowbasterd 2 days ago
The question is why would god have someone physically kill someone else when he has the power to remove that person from existence and memory?
ijreilly01 1 month ago
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finally check mate religion, mauro biglino, a former translater for the vatican, has translated the original old testament without bastardizing it, like the one you guys read which is from around 700ad.
your god is fake (in a way lol) and the original writings from YOUR book prove it.
nothing you say can change what has been translated, you have been lied to.
thumbs up so all religious people with an ounce of intellect can see for themselves
TehFoo1 1 month ago
i can't believe people are defending this. "he only asked one person" etc. It goes to show how malleable the human mind is and how religion, is indeed, 'the opiate of the masses'.
TheDharmawheel 1 month ago 27
@TheDharmawheel
Karl Marx, aw yeah. That guy is boss. And yes, that is quite frightening to think that people can be so easily manipulated like that. Personally, I just don't understand how people can believe that some dude with a stick can communicate with burning shrubbery. I don't know what it is, just doesn't quite seem right to me...
Zephyr7771 2 weeks ago
@Zephyr7771 i'm glad for all the sane people in the world. There really are lots of us but we just aren't usually as loud as the crazies : )
TheDharmawheel 2 weeks ago
@TheDharmawheel if you read further in the Bible, it says, in various different books, that God never intended for Abraham to sacrifice his own son. God was testing Abraham's faith. And Abraham was faithful. When he left his servants to go and prepare the sacrifice, he told them, "we'll be back." So it seems that Abraham knew he wasn't going to kill his own son.
2ScoopsofChad 2 days ago
@2ScoopsofChad seriously? "testing his faith". So even if he didn't intend for him to actually do it he wanted to know that he WOULD if he asked him. That is fucked up in of itself is it not?
i can't believe you are even trying to justify this immoral tripe.
TheDharmawheel 2 days ago
@palermodpr God is not going to ask me to kill anyone. Thou shalt not kill. God hadn't made the 10 commandments back at the time of Abraham.
Eion7177 1 month ago
@Eion7177 So what? The commandments didn't exist therefore it's ok? You're describing a god of subjective morality. You're saying it's only right and wrong when God says so. That's not objective.
ahhhhjjjj 3 weeks ago
@TheDharmawheel You all act like God asks people to kill there kids on a daily basis. To the best of my knowledge God has only asked one person to kill there son. I think it was Abraham
Eion7177 1 month ago
@Eion7177 Let's be honest here, if I ask you to kill your own son, would you do it? Would you worship me after this? That's incredibly immoral, regardless of whom asks. Sorry for using you and your son in the example but that show how chocking this can be.
palermodpr 1 month ago
@Eion7177 i never said that at all but if he does it once then who's to say he wouldn't do it again? do you claim to know gods mind? Who's to say people that kill their kids and say god told them to are lying or wrong? it happens all the time. How do you know it wasn't god? saying "he wouldn't do that" is crap as you can't know that for sure as you can't know gods plan or mind.
TheDharmawheel 1 month ago
@TheDharmawheel Umm, if someone claims their GOD told them ANYTHING, they're either lying or suffering from schizophrenia (or both).
xusmcguy 1 month ago
@xusmcguy exactly my point.
TheDharmawheel 1 month ago
@Eion7177 read judges 11.
NathanWubs 4 weeks ago
I forgot what they call it when you hear voices in your head.
rangeownz1993 1 month ago
@rangeownz1993 schizophrenia?
palermodpr 1 month ago
@palermodpr thats what preachers hear.
rangeownz1993 1 month ago
@rangeownz1993 I'm really suspicious about preachers, don't think they really hear anything.
palermodpr 1 month ago
@palermodpr Of course they don't! :P ANYONE can say they hear things :P
Emlis16 1 month ago
@Emlis16 Yes, and for anyone that claim that, need to proof in laboratory conditions. Otherwise, you're another f**king fraud!!
It's incredible how everyone take everything upon scepticism, except what their preaches say. That's make my head almost explode.
palermodpr 1 month ago
@palermodpr My definition of Religion is:
"Unjustified outdated explainations for the unexplainable"
Emlis16 1 month ago
@jillum89 you're approach of learning english is a bit too cerebral, besides, it's fluent, not fluid. Fluid is a damn liquid. Just watch movies and talk to people a lot, avoid trying to learn english through courses or someone teaching you. Bye forever
Shonaripa 1 month ago
And hell yea, I'd kill my own Son if the God who crteated Everything (including me and my son) asked me to do so. Abraham obviously knew there was a God. God was talking to him. If I knew there was a God and he asked me to kill my own son, I would do it. How do you expext to go against God? Just because you think killing is wrong/horrible or whatver doesn't mean everybody else thinks the same thing. That is your opinion.There is no such thing as right and wrong.!, without a God existing.
DeviantPsyche1 1 month ago
@DeviantPsyche1 then you will go to prison?
rangeownz1993 1 month ago
@rangeownz1993 So what? this life is extremely short when compared to eternal life in hevean.
DeviantPsyche1 1 month ago
@DeviantPsyche1 your a fucking retard. you need some fucking help if you killed your son because god told you too. if you hear some deep ass fucking voice in your head saying "this is god kill your son" you seriously would? you need some fucking help, even if "god" told me to, I'd tell him to fuck off. and fuck you, you sick retard chicken fucker. killing your own kid because some god tells you too is wrong on so many levels.
dylanhelmer 1 month ago
@dylanhelmer My whole scenerio was spoken with IF God existed you dumbass. wow people on youtube are so ignorant there's no point in arguing. wow..
DeviantPsyche1 1 month ago
@DeviantPsyche1 i love you
dylanhelmer 1 month ago
@DeviantPsyche1 killing is wrong, it's sometimes necessary but it's always wrong. you would destroy everything dear to you for nothing but fear for your own skin. selfish, disgusting christian morality.
dev0n72 1 month ago
@dev0n72 Right and wrong, good and evil don't exist, unless you believe in God. Just go think about it. What is good and what is evil. It's a philisophical question that has no answer. Unless you believe that all human beings are do have a sense of right and wrong, then the next question is where does this sense come from.... The bible does say we were created in God's image.
DeviantPsyche1 1 month ago
@DeviantPsyche1 Good and Evil is a choice and it's up to responsible humans beings to make that choice based on the goodness of their own selves. And not just believe in lies.
xBlackEditionx 1 month ago
@DeviantPsyche1 How would know it was God telling you to do so? If God has a tendency to order infanticide, how would you distinguish God from Satan? Wait a minute! Satan never ordered the murder of children. Satan is better than God! Woohoo!
backwoodsninja 1 month ago
WOW, the caller says, "God has no Morality" With this he is claiming that a "Right" and "Wrong" exsist and that he knows what they are and God does not. If there is no God then Right/Good and Wrong/bad don't even exsist. Don't confuse right and wrong with "MAN-MADE laws created out of Greed." If you don't understand what Man-made laws created out of greed are I could explain else where(not enough room here). AND secondly God, from the start is TESTing Abraham's Loyalty
DeviantPsyche1 1 month ago
@LimesNorrlandicus He was going to see if Abraham was really that faithful. He rewarded Abraham afterward. He does everything for a reason.
Eion7177 1 month ago
@Eion7177 And you view this "god" as loving and just? It's just a made up story like the story of Job who no matter how bad made him suffer he stayed loyal. It;s to get other weak minded fools to follow. I call them sheeple.
InteGrayting2 1 month ago
God wouldn't ask to kill his son, because they are make of God's Image. The Devil sometimes disguises and misguide Humanity to cause them to believe false rules and such.
jediguardian1 1 month ago
@jediguardian1 god instructs parents to kill their children in the bible.
TheDharmawheel 1 month ago
@TheDharmawheel God only ask one person, It was Abraham. It was a test to see if he truly would. Thou shall not kill.
jediguardian1 1 month ago
@TheDharmawheel He was testing Abraham. It says so in the first sentence of the story. Read the bible.
DeviantPsyche1 1 month ago
@DeviantPsyche1 and it was a sick twisted 'test'. It doesn't say much for the character of a god does it?
TheDharmawheel 1 month ago
@TheDharmawheel Exactly. If some god told me to kill my son, I`d tell that god to go fuck himself. Anything less would be immoral and inhuman. Abraham - if he even existed at all - was a subservient, useless, immoral, inhuman monster if he would obey that command. And his god would have been even worse.
drunkenscotsman 3 weeks ago
@DeviantPsyche1 So, if god told you to kill your own child, you would do it? If so, you are morally bankrupt. I would tell god to go fuck himself. I am more moral than your god, and more moral than you if you think that the "test" was good just because god gave it. You need to wake up. The god of the bible is a monster who deserves no respect at all. I've read the bible. Several times. Why do you think that would change minds? Its the reason I'm an atheist.
drunkenscotsman 3 weeks ago
This is a Public Service Announcement: If you know of any people, that have children, who vehemently defend Filicide. Contact Child Protective Services, or similar agencies, in your area immediately. Before these f@cktards start hearing voices in their heads telling them to sacrifice their kids for their god.
LeviathanZr6 1 month ago
why would god bat an eye at you, let alone speak to you if your atheist you dumbshit!
HyperbladeZero4 1 month ago
Fuck Religion!
mattyh099 1 month ago
8:25 “... that something is moral by [...] or declaration.”
I’m not fluid in English. But I’d like to learn that word. Can someone help me and write it, so that I can look it up? :) Thanks in advance.
jillum89 1 month ago
@jillum89
Transcript: "We are not willing to accept that something is 'moral' by fiat, by declaration, by divine edict, or whatever."
TheAtheistExperience 1 month ago 2
@jillum89 I'd also add, " I'm not (fluent) in English"
wullz16 3 weeks ago
@jillum89 I believe he said theat, which relates to theater(theatre) or theatrical.
JRDawggg 3 weeks ago
@TheIncognitusMe "Morality comes from religion" Also, the Bible gets its morality from people, since it's a book of fiction made by people to control more primitive people. So there is another flaw in your argument.
TheIncognitusMe 2 months ago
@TheIncognitusMe thx for making the work for me =)
ComAntNeLib 2 months ago
@TheIncognitusMe lol you answered for me in a diferent way and in a way that mocks the retard ahah i like it
ComAntNeLib 2 months ago
@Eion7177 1) That's completely manipulative and raises a whole slew of other problems. 2) Abraham didn't know why god wanted him to kill his son, he blindly agreed. The point is that that kind of behavior/thinking based on blind faith is inexcusable and morally reprehensible.
srsguynogames 2 months ago
If you read your bible you would find that God stopped Abram from killing his son. It was a test of Abrams faith.
Eion7177 2 months ago
@Eion7177 Don't you think that's insane? I mean telling someone to kill person x and then say it was a just a test. What an appalling god.
LimesNorrlandicus 1 month ago
@Eion7177 thats a sick game.
TheDharmawheel 1 month ago
This is probably the most retarded response to this but "The bible was written by people a few centuries ago, Health in most people wasn't as good at that time. Also, Schyzophrenia was at its peak around the time it was written, the conditions people were living in could have caused hallucinations which is why later on in history when they improved ,less people believed and no one had visions of god anymore" The bible is unreliable to say the least
MrMegaAwesomeSauce 2 months ago
Many people claim they hear entities and unseen forces terrorize them and even claim them to be "God".They slaughter people heartlessly and say that it is for "God". These circumstances do no consist with the bible. gods from other religions required personal sacrifice such as killing of innocent people. The bible says God wiped out many people who killed for idols and their gods. God was showing he does not need this. God made a trusted man prove it. After Abraham, no one else was or is needed.
adrianchriste6 3 months ago
@adrianchriste6 this is EXTREMELY unfortunate for Isaac, but this is my understanding of it. Although i must admit, that family guy episode on this was hilarious
adrianchriste6 3 months ago
I can imagine a murderer in front of a grand jury claiming god told him/her to kill...........I don't think heaven will be an option, more like a electric chair or lethal injection.
guayacan07 3 months ago
If the purpose of this tawdry little tale is to provide an example of ultimate sacrifice by Abe, then it is a half-arsed attempt. If Abe had said FU to god and sacrificed his OWN life instead of his son, THAT would have been infinitely more of a sacrifice. Abe would have pwned god in the morailty stakes if he'd done that.As it stands, Isaac was the one who would have paid the REAL sacrifice.
rossini55 3 months ago
What if god asked you to stop believing in god
PowLingChong 3 months ago
@PowLingChong That can't even happen. That's like telling your Mom to stop thinking that you exist.
TheGamerboy860 3 months ago
What is scary is that fundamentalist religious groups like Mormons take this shit literally, and have political agendas. They literally believe that their leaders talk to god and are infallible. So if in their heirarchy it was ordered for them to do something so terrible as kill someone they would likely do it.
Religion is fucking terrible.
It disgusts me when I see all these christian wackos breeding like crazy and brainwashing their kids with their dangerously insane bullshit.
undeadpresident 4 months ago
SO why are you all Christian fuckers eating animal flesh, isn't that a God's creation? fucing stupid paradox bible
shdevilnam 4 months ago
I got 99 problems but a kid ain't 1. Fuck "God." Titties!
galacticcommander 4 months ago
If god told me to kill my child, I would question his authority, and ask, why the fuck an omniscient being doesn't know I don't have a child.
ArsonistInUrFirewall 4 months ago 89
@ArsonistInUrFirewall Maybe you do have a child but don't know that yet kekekeke. Bad surprise :P.
palermodpr 1 month ago
@1775edde This argument could go on forever. I'm out.
lasoogneypubes 4 months ago
If God has all power and he can do anything like the man on the phone stated, why couldn't he himself kill tat persons son? Why does the kids parent have to kill him?
DALLMYD 4 months ago
@Omnicronimous
I suggest reading The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris. It makes an excellent argument for the existence of moral truth.
Damarcast 4 months ago
Religion and the Bible seems totally absurd to me! I do believe that there is something great, magical, and beautiful to our existence, but I do not believe what the Bible tells us. We as human beings do seem to be special from everything else, even though some human beings don't always act very special. Other times we seem just as dumb and self destructive as dumb animals! And the arrogance and ignorance of "Christians" is unbelievable! They will punish you in a second for speaking against God
anthonygareth 4 months ago
I like how hitchens put it when he said that the only proper answer to God if he asked you to kill your kid
"No, fuck you"
ThieleM 4 months ago 53
@ThieleM That's precisely what I would do but people apparently fear God more than love their children.
OkamsRazer 1 month ago
I'd rather worship satan than god, god killed thousands of people in the bible, and satan only killed 30.
Zekezan88 5 months ago
@Zekezan88 I thought Satan only killed Job's children after being granted to by God.
91thpe 5 months ago
@91thpe Did I say 30? I meant 30 or 3, around that many, my bad.
Zekezan88 5 months ago
No, I wouldn't. I would maybe try to follow the order, but I know in the end God would stop me like He stopped Abraham... Thats also why God would never order me to kill my child, He knows that I know how the story ends.. I would advise atheists to focus on overcoming fanatisicsm, rather than trying to prove all believers are lunatics.
zragisha 5 months ago
@zragisha And what if god didn't stop you? What if god let you kill your kid? What if god decided it was time to change things up again like he did by sending Jesus? Maybe he decided that the world was too messed up and needed to be purged and it all starts with your kid? That's god's will. Are you going to go against god's will or are you going to obey it?
pyrobryan 5 months ago
@pyrobryan The God I believe in, never changes His will (which the salvation of our souls), but fulfils it, step by step. I go against it often enough, whenever I follow "my own" will, or my arrogance, my egoism, my pride and so on. I don't believe I'm pure enough for God to adress to me directly in this life already, so I'd most probably assume a demon is trying to deceive me, and beg Christ to have mercy on me... To me these questions sound like "What if granma had balls?"
zragisha 5 months ago
@zragisha So in one reply you would follow the order with confidence that god would stop you, then in the next reply you would assume it was a demon and not follow the order.
I will consider the goalpost moved.
pyrobryan 5 months ago
@zragisha
We could focus on ridding our-self of "believers" kind of like a reverse crusade/inquisition instead.
That would be much more progressive, a "Final Solution" for ridding us of religion.
NeutralExistence 5 months ago
@NeutralExistence religion is not the problem. the problem is people who believe getting rid of other people is the final solution.
zragisha 5 months ago
@zragisha
In all reality this world would be 100x better off without any humans whatsoever.
So I think it really is the most logical frame of thought for a rational person, especially considering we are talking about the lives of billions of species not just our own. Are you selfish enough that you would pathetically protect humanity from obliteration at the cost of the entire world? Is our conscience thought really make us more worthy? I hardly think so.
NeutralExistence 5 months ago
@NeutralExistence what your saying sounds like thought police and extremism and thats if your not saying kill them but if you are then your far gone. im anti theist too but not to that extent. i just want freedom of speech back and to have a voice against religion. i dont think book burning or "ridding" of religious people is the best way to go. i say we just use words and say what the book really says. if most knew they wouldnt follow it. if we did as you say what separates us from them?
muaythaijunky 5 months ago
@muaythaijunky
Clearly it separates us because we have the insight to actually finish the job.
They get confused by morality's, and visions from "God" as the priests change their interests towards raping another land. Or molesting young boys for pleasure. The fact that we even allow these cults to exist right in front of our eye's in disgusting. The organized religions of this world have gotten away with to much already, letting them further their corruption of our species will cost us.
NeutralExistence 5 months ago
@NeutralExistence finish the job? what job is that? i think you clearly dont understand religion all the way and are looking at the extremes as all religious views. then again this is how extremists work. you also forget the good parts when it has helped. what you seem to be suggesting almost sounds on the lines of genocide and thought police. there is nothing you can say to justify those things.
muaythaijunky 5 months ago
@muaythaijunky
I understand perfectly well the good parts, and I have nothing wrong with Hinduism, or Buddhism. However Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Catholicism need to be cleansed from our land. Forever. What is better, to sit by, and watch as our people's get corrupted/exploited by these con's. Or actually try to stop them from doing the same bullshit they have been doing for thousands of years?
Removing the people that get power from these cults are key.
NeutralExistence 5 months ago
Rules should always be able to be changed. What might be right in this era might be wrong in the next. What might be wrong in this era might be right.
runeflame16 5 months ago
@runeflame16 The CIA, FBI, ATF are completely under Jesuit control. The Jonestown massacre, the Waco massacre and other massacres(including the Twin Towers) were all orchestrated to cause worldwide abhorrence and demonization of any group that seeks to get out from under the control of the worldwide Jesuit influence, domination, subversion and infiltration.
bornbythesea 5 months ago
Anyone who kills, or even thinks of killing their child because "God" says so is insane and needs to be checked into a mental hospital.
ember1k 5 months ago
lol stupid christains
MrPhantompants 6 months ago
@MrPhantompants Atheism - The belief that nothing from nothing created nothing and nothing magically exploded creating everything and everything made of nothing somehow magically rearranged itself into Dinosaurs.
Makes perfect sense?
zSanosake 5 months ago
@zSanosake christianity - the belief that some higher power has existed forever and somehow created the earth from nothing created light (not the sun) and he created man from the dust of the earth and he stole a rib from the men to create the woman and said nothing about dinosaurs because man hadn't discovered them yet i mean god didn't know they were there i mean he put them there to uhm wait fuck
MrPhantompants 5 months ago
@zSanosake Christianity, the belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
MrPhantompants 5 months ago
@zSanosake btw atheism doesn't necessarily accept the big bang theory because after all its just a theory its more the disbelief of any god lo lbut you clearly don't understand anything so il let you take the easy path by accepting what a book tells you to after all harry potter and dumbledoor had a party lastnight and i was there
MrPhantompants 5 months ago
@zSanosake even if there is a god that created everything, that doesn't necessarily mean he is all-loving. In fact, all you have to do is open your eyes and you will see that (:
capitals721 5 months ago
You guys are too comical. God asked Abraham to kill his child because he wanted to see 1) if Abraham trusted him completely 2) if Abraham is obedient. He didn't want to really kill Abraham child. Look here, God is a spirit, who wants to use us to do tons of wonderful things in our lives, and to further his purpose for the kingdom. There's a reward for that, you know. Because of Abraham's obedience he was made father of many nations, and was given Wealth.
iwmfwo2010 6 months ago
@iwmfwo2010 Do you have evidence for the existence of this God?
pedarikarhu 5 months ago
@iwmfwo2010 A bit of a contradiction there, don't you think?
If your god is so "ALLKNOWING" why would he need to test Abraham? Shouldn't he already know where his trus is? And no, there is no way in fuck you can miss-interpret that word.
Don't answer that question, you can't.
TheKainMan 4 months ago
Why would "god" ask anyone to kill anyone? An ALMIGHTY god isn't capable of doing something like that on his own?
Tr1pTr0p 6 months ago
@Pentagon1337 JESUS CHRIST! cant you 2 just message each other your hate? the rest of the people here would rather not read ur 4 page long flame war :/
Beier135 6 months ago
@Beier135 lt's 3 and a half page. Just saying =P
Pentagon1337 6 months ago
I submit that if you are willing to kill your child because a voice tells you to, you need to be locked up in an insane asylum for the rest of your life. Obviously, if you are willing to do such a thing, you are a danger to yourself, society, and especially your children! If it were up to me, I'd track every one of you apologists down and remove your children from an obviously harmful environment. If you defend Abraham, you are an unfit parent. Period.
xJoeEDangerouslyx 6 months ago
I whant tew haive sax wit kaids!
LoonyLemming 6 months ago
Please tell me this show still exists. I kinda want to call and tell Matt he's my hero xD
MrEvitcartta 6 months ago 2
so he asks Abraham, but at the last minute says, "No wait! I was just playin =)". So he tries a second time and as he watches omnipotently over him he can be heard saying, "Nah, he won't do it.....watch man, not a chance in hell he's gonna do th.... OMG!!!LMFAO He only went and killed his kid! FFS HAHA!"
What a douche.
spenoir77 6 months ago
God wouldn't let u kill ur own child (His creation) if he asked u to! He asked Abraham to do this to test his faith in him! So when Abraham was going to do it God stopped him!
blessthefall4100 6 months ago
@blessthefall4100 You are missing the point completely. The fact that abraham was willing to kill his own child simply because god says so, and the fact that it was okay because god stopped him, is extremely worrying. It shows that the bible wants us to believe that we have no self-control and we should do anything god says, regardless of consequence and without forethought. What if god told us to blow up africa? Would you do it? What if god didn't stop you?
Cherrypoppins18 6 months ago
@blessthefall4100 your missing the point, but isnt your god all knowing, so obviously he would know that abraham would have killed his son if he asked, so why did god ask abraham to kill his own son, when god already knew what abraham was going to do, thts just immoral
devinche14td 6 months ago
@blessthefall4100
Funny - he allowed Jephtha to sacrifice his daughter...
JMUDoc 6 months ago
If there is a god (which I seriously doubt there is), It would be a god that loves death, pain, misery, fear, torment, sacrifice, rape, war, plagues, murder, genocide, incest etc...but he still loves his followers, and he's also not to fond of dinosaurs :-)
Munnchbunnch 6 months ago
I have spoken to and debated with many Christians, including Pastors and when I ask them this question, virtually all replied that if God told them to kill their child, they would. One Pastor went as far as saying that if God told him to kill his entire family, he would have no hestitation doing so. How sick ! ...biblethumpingatheist.co.uk
tomecrawford 6 months ago
24 people would murder their children.
UnknownUserName4267 6 months ago 4
ı love god more than satan because god is more evil
humannism 6 months ago 47
@humannism thats so fucking true HAHAHA
MrGoth777 5 months ago
satan killed what... 10 people??? god killed oh i dunno over 2 fucking million!!! whos more evil?
MrGoth777 5 months ago 2
@MrGoth777 Try 1 billion.
Laitharex 5 months ago
@Laitharex Try 115 billion, over the course of history that is.
Minecraft4life1000 5 months ago
@humannism At least more evil in extremes, considering he created satan.
skdjhfkdhfa 5 months ago
God stoped him... he wanted to see how dedicated he was to him, and God got his answer, and stoped him.
MarineMike97 6 months ago
@MarineMike97 is that what your mommy told you? or your version 79 of your bible
BARRlSS 6 months ago
@BARRlSS wow... your a douche, i was just putting that out there and you had to go all lower middle class white boy with a learning disability on me.
MarineMike97 6 months ago
@MarineMike97 no, christians are just all the same, they just try to rationally put things, or manipulate sentences to try and make it make sense. or they just word it however it would make sense to them
BARRlSS 6 months ago
@BARRlSS yes and im the one fucking with someones belief... just tell me why? why? why are you argueing with me if you think your trying to free christians from what you claim to be stupidity, so now you think your like jesus freeing the people? so that means your christian! yay congrats youve been converted to what you hate welcome to christianity have a nice afterlife!
MarineMike97 6 months ago
@MarineMike97 Have I been converted, or you just decided to make assumptions yourself and then confirm them without asking me?
BARRlSS 6 months ago
@MarineMike97 if god was omniscient, then there would be no reason for testing noah.
masterhans 6 months ago
@MALACHAI39 you said that Isaac agreed to be sacrificed to Jehovah by his father but thats false. Abraham lied to Isaac, saying that he was going to sacrifice a goat on the mount provided by God.
ShyboyBastian 7 months ago
If most Christians really believed in life after death then the killing of ones children in order to send them to the hereafter would be considered a reasonable if unusual act and the funeral would be a joyous affair. The fact that this is not the case speaks volumes about how strong (or weak) the faith of most professed Christians actually is.
Tadgh78 7 months ago
well god isnt real but if he told you face to face kill your son im pretty sure all of us would cause he would go to heaven..just saying
wowkaves 7 months ago
@wowkaves lf God told me face to face to kill my son, ld spit in Gods face.
Pentagon1337 7 months ago 82
@Pentagon1337
I'd make an attempt to kill god before killing my own kids, if I fail I fail, but if I succeed I'd be a much better god that the christian one has ever been. The new first commandment? Thou Shalt Never Hurt Children.
aegisgfx 6 months ago
@aegisgfx You know, lf you would actually be a God, l'd worship you. Since that commandment alone makes you 200 times better than the current God.
Pentagon1337 6 months ago
@Pentagon1337 my mistake xD
Beier135 6 months ago
@Pentagon1337 oooooooooooooooooi thats offensive. what are you thinking. arent you afraid of hell???????
I'd just say "FUCK YOU"
mignik01 4 months ago
@mignik01 l'm not afraid of hell. You are disgusting. Following God purely out of fear for Hell. Disgusting freak. l hope you die.
l'd just say ''STOP SLOWING DOWN THE PROGRESS OF MANKIND AND FUCK YOURSELF.''.
Pentagon1337 4 months ago