Absolutely perfect song for your video on cognitive dissonance issues within the Alcoholics Anonymous crowds. Its a shame that so many people and institutions refuse to exercise any critical thought. Seriously people, if you're not thinking critically about anything, ever, you've lost the one thing that separates us from the animal world.
so that stress that comes from the extreme thinking eventually starts to break a person down until they just say fuck it . and usually end up doing something stupid like drinking a whole bottle of 151 to the head or something driving down the freeway .
another thing , and this is just my opinion , is the extreme thinking . like - i'm either going to drink a gallon of vodka a day or nothing . and quit cold turkey and if i even go near or touch a drink i'll drink 5 kegs of beer immediately . in my opinion , someone has to be able to retrain themselves to drink more moderately . then there isn't the stress of it all . and it's very possible , even though they tell you you're powerless in so many ways , you're really not . there's a lot you can do
well there's a drop out rate for a few reasons , and i'm all past the aa conspiracy thing but i did have to deal with some rather complicated issues for a little while. but mostly , you have this higher power thing . which , i would imagine there are also many drop outs in religion due to unanswered prayers making someone think there's no god . or unexplainable things that people in religion usually try to maneuver around . adds up , time takes it's toll .
Talk about cognitive dissonance, the mere idea of a movement so steeped in American protestantism asking members to deify the "group" and in turn themselves be permitted to be deified as members of that group--well, it makes no logical sense and always seemed heretical to me. I realize we in the US aren't short on fundamentalists who presume to know the will of God or speak for "him", but like all other attempts at actual logic this fails in "meetings". I'm no fundie, nor anyone's higher power.
Thanks for this, I am researching cognitive dissonance and the definition placed in the description box is useful.
I have had scant contact with N.A. and have had the 'principles' offered as solution to my "substance abuse" issues, though, I said, "if there is a higher force where was it when I was "abusing myself", if it is higher and a force then surely that implies in exists existentially", I walk away saying "sounds like this force needs me to abuse to justify its existent dependence on me".
The first rule of A.A. is you do not talk about A.A. You are not your fucking perceptions. How much time you got? Look here, I'll have the steakside run the java and drag it through the garden- bro was on, layin it to the ground like a mutha, didn't tri[p. Shiiiiiii..... I have met some of the smartest most intelligent people in the universe in this program. Our great war is a spiritual war. Be well.
@tapmatic I have met few AA's who were interested in talking about much else. I have all the time you need, as long as you keep it civil, and sensible. Mike BD
@blamethenile It's so true how AA's only talk about recovery. I brought that up with many of my AA "friends" and why can't we just have a normal conversation. Why do you/we have to speak about recovery all the time. I have friends that are tagged as "normies" and I just want to have a regular kick back or heated debate that isn't recovery based. I brought that up to an "old timer" she said, "its because we are in recovery" I left Mormonism to another cult, no thanks to both.
Interesting composition, however the fact remains AA has millions of successful stories and committed members to general service in 180 countries world wide. With a service structure unimaginable to some one who ignores the true meaning of AA.
I wish success in your philosophy of the AA fellowship.,..keep coming back!
@mgzorro1 I almost wish for comments like yours, that is up to the point you ruin it by saying something stupid like, 'Keep Coming Back...' It is such a shame because both Mike and I are desperate for someone to come along that is willing to debate the points we make instead of parroting slogans as an underhand way of delivering an ad hominem. Oh well, take care. B l A m E
@blamethenileI could argue the fact that 99% of woman that have sex do not get pregnant.does that mean sex is not the vehicle to a higher creation. Expand your research you'll find out the rabbit hole is much deeper than you think within conscience of AA. By going again such movement you really are sucked into its main core of recovery as AA is inclusive and feeds on he who denies it. You are still at waiting room of step one. do not rush way in into the miracle of recover man,keep it simple!
@mgzorro1 Again, it's a shame because you are right about one thing, and that is by our work we are kept close to AA to some degree, but my head is left spinning by all the psuedo-slogans in your comment. Regardless, thanks for making me think. Take care now, and no matter what you think of AA, if AA has helped you stay sober, I'm pleased for you. B l A m E
@blamethenile Hi there sorry I have yet much to learn you are right I looked up the meaning of hominem and that is not how I want to come across did not mean to insult you are or believes. I guess sometimes we tend to over react when faces authentic disagreements with out firs analyzing its objective and trying to bring it to conclusion. Have a good weekend I will read a little more into your postings and give you feed back as I understand them - MG
I've been sober over 5 years; I have gone to AA quite a bit. I am grateful for AA and the people that helped me when I was struggling with alcohol addiction. I have come to view AA like training wheels for newly-sober people. It's like learning to ride a bike or play the piano. Once I found my own higher power, I did not need to lean on AA anymore. I still go to meetings once in a while to be of service.
@sharlenemusiclover It is good that you have been able to move beyond the spiritual kindergarten spoken of in the text. Unfortunately for some, such an exit strategy is not encouraged or discussed in any of the 12-step doctrine. In fact, quite the opposite is the case. Thanks for posting, Mike BD
I like how you pick a choose little sentences to defend your belief, instead of using the whole sentence. "Rarely have we seen a person fail..." ... "who has thoroughly follow our steps." Also, you saying that all of those things that are clearly your opinion are fact is complete bullshit. If you don't like AA, that's great. It works for some people, and clearly not everyone. I know plenty of people who do AA and it works for them, they live a happy life that is not just AA.
@mc20071 "path", not "steps", but I digress. The rest of the paragraph you cite is an exercise in derision, repudiating all who do not buy into Wilson's crapola, much like you try to do here. If you don't like Blamethenile, that's great. It works for some people, and clearly not everyone. I know plenty of people who tried AA and think it sucks. Mike
Check out the concept of 'Patternicity." There is an interesting video on Ted.org that will get you started. Then look at the patterns the 12 step programs teach their members. Patternicity explains the dissonance very well. The only thing it doesn't explain is the peer pressure.
@blamethenile Yes. I think "coping strategy" is an excellent way to put it. In fact I've come to think of "character defects" as dsyfunctional coping stragegies.
Hey Mike. I just reading up on CD myself. I came across this definition from WikiPedia: "The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance. They do this by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and actions. Dissonance is also reduced by justifying, blaming, and denying. It is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology."
@beachlaurie Sour grapes? Not at all. Changes of attitude, belief and action are potentially-positive approachs, while justification, blame, and denial are devices more commonly used to maintain the status quo within one's head. Good post. Mike
Interesting video. I appreciate the perspective. I think one of the most important messages in AA is taking personal inventory/responsibility for my behaviour. Blaming others (eg. blaming AA) IS a manifestion of cognitive dissonance.
@beachlaurie I do not regard myself as faultless, and neither do I see AA as so either. The difference between AA and myself is that I am open to challenge. I blame AA for very little, however I do state it does not work for the vast majority. Is that allowed? Or are we entering a realm where pointing out AA flaws is dismissed as 'blaming' there by letting AA off the hook? B l A m E
The church of AA tries to treat something which is clearly a medical condition. If Jesus hasn't worked for a person before they walking in and said "Hello my name is Jim", how do hope to treat the medical condition then? With good intentions?
@bigboy45454545 First off Jesus does not have anything to do with AA.
The medical part of Alcoholism is the physical dependenc on Alcohol, which is usually treated by a detox. The other part is psychological and/or spiritual in nature. Without treating these problems, the person is more likely to relapse. The steps are combination of spiritual and psychological exercises that help to treat those aspects of the disease.
@rich2mcc Oh so Jesus isn't the higher power that 75% of the AA people pray to? And what part of AA helps people to detox, the spiritual part? And what is spirituality anyways? It's a belief in nonsense just like religion. Do you believe in Santa Claus too. AA like religion, wants you to feel powerless. I can do anything with the power of myself, not the power of imaginary friends. Believe what you like. A belief in nonsense just means you're not a critical thinker. I reject it all.
@bigboy45454545 I have no idea where you got the 75% at (actually I do), I would strongly refute that having direct experience with people in AA. Most AA people Abhor organized religion.
"And what part of AA helps people to detox, the spiritual part?" Actually what I said was that mostly people are sent to a detox to withdrawal.
Whether what I believe in is nonsense is a matter of opinion. However, blasting something by making stuff up is not real high in the critical thinking scale.
@rich2mcc Well let's see over 75% of people in your country see Jeebus as the higher power, so that's a no brainer.
And 95% of people don't stick with AA, and that's not my opinion, that's the majority consensus. And that's not made up. People have better success going going it alone, not just a little better. Far better. I'm sure if people really believe it The Tooth Fairy could help people to quite too, or maybe Thor or Apollo.
@bigboy45454545 I must admit that I was surprised by that statistic. I sure don't see it either in or out of AA. However, my point is that AA does tell people how or what to believe in regards to a Higher Power. Most people do not mention a specific god or religion (unless they are talking about how it screwed them up). BTW you absolutely can be an atheist in AA or any other 12 step program, though most people aren't. It isn't just about the belief and the Tooth Fairy reference shows how...
@bigboy45454545 Knowledge you have of the program. The 12 steps, which are founded on very sound psychological principles are what really make a difference in peoples lives. I have watched peoples lives transform as they work the steps. They have better jobs, better relationships and are better people. They strive to make a positive impact in any endeavor.
In regards to the success rate and people go it alone do better, Almost everyone I know in any 12 step program has tried to do it by ...
@bigboy45454545 I don't think AA is for everyone or that other ways may work. However, I know what the program has done for me and others who have been willing to work the program.
@rich2mcc What sound psychological principles are you referring to? There isn't one contained in any of the 12 steps. They more closely resemble a formula for religious conversion and subsequent proselytization than anything in the realm of psychology. I too, have watched peoples' lives "transformed" in the church of steppism, but seldom as you describe. Most often, they become more and more dedicated to life within the rooms, and less with the outside world. Mike
@blamethenile Mike, I am convinced that you have no desire to open your mind to anything that will spoil your need to hate AA. However, how about, admitting you have a problem, Step One. Realizing that you can change and making a decision to do so, Two and three. Looking at yourself and self disclosure(isn't that what psychotherapy is?) Steps four and five. Hold yourself accountable for your behavior. (Steps Eight and Nine). Daily self examination, being willing to learn from your mistakes
@rich2mcc You confuse gullibility with open-mindedness, it seems. Admissions of powerlessness and insanity followed by a surrender to the God of Bill Wilson aren't sound psychological principles. nor are ongoing inventories and confessions of sin. Mike
@blamethenile The reason you only see those that hide in AA is you cognitive disosnance refuses for you to recognize those who become better people in all areas of their life.
@bigboy45454545 by themselves or dozens of other ways before coming to a 12 step program. So if it people stop by themselves that is great, but not everyone does or can. Those are the people that end up in 12 step program.
@rich2mcc AA is usually the first stop for those finding themselves with alcohol-related problems. What dozens of other ways are you referring to? AA tries to convince them that they can't stop by themselves, hence the demand for the admission of powerlessness in the very first step, which is often the topic of discussion whenever newcomers are present in a meeting. Mike
@blamethenile Lets see I want to stop drinking am I going to try to stop on my own first or I am going to seek help? You are telling me that people choose the later, Really? Repeat, almost every alcoholic or addict who seeks help to stop drinking has tried to stop on their own and failed. Maybe dozens is an exageration. Real religon or church, psychaitry, psychology, hypnosis, other types of self help groups. Real self help cults like Lifespring, the forum and EST. accupuncture, etc.
@blamethenile very few people come into AA through court cards. Most of those are not going there to stop drinking. People who want to stop, try to stop on their own before they seek help. We don't all try all of those, but most have tried at least one. The last thing alcoholics want to do is admit to being alcoholic, so they will avoid any assistance that involves that admission.
@blamethenile I am not sure exactly what constitutes some form of coercion. However, if AA states that 60% are coerced into AA I will accept that number. Even though my personal experience is different. I still stand on my statement that most people who come to AA because they *want* to quit drinking, have already tried to quit on their own and failed.
@rich2mcc Judges, spouses, doctors, etc can all evert coercive influences on people who don't want to quit drinking, but find themselves in AA. I quit drinking and then went to AA, as did most of the successful quitters I have known. Many of them gave AA all the credit for their success, which is their business. Mike
@blamethenile I am glad that you have been able to stop drinking on your own. For an Alcoholic to stop drinking regardless of method is an impressive feat. I have not interest in calling you a dry drunk, or trying to tell you, you are not an alcoholic. It does not threaten me or my belief in AA if someone does it some other way.
@blamethenile Despite what you may think I am not an AA zealot and I consider my critical thinking skills above average. I hear a lot of things in the rooms, that I do not agree with and I think are pretty lame. I also, hear a lot of things that I find very insightful and helpful as well. I don't agree with the Big Books view on justifiable anger among other things. Some of your criticisms are valid if applied to some members of the program, but *I* do not see as a whole.
@seeker4trth I have been around for 30+ plus years. While some people may not like what I share at meetings nobody ever persecuted me or anyone else for it.
You can look at a lot of the literature, what you hear members say about the program, etc. and see a cult or at least a religon where people are forced to do certain things and believe certain things in order to be a part of the organization. The reality is that nobody is going to force you to do anything.
While maybe a sponsor well tell you to do something. But, There is nothing stopping you from telling him to f-off and find someone else or not. There are people who outside of step one, have never worked another step and have been sober for years. Some people may make meetings once every other month or six months if they are able to stay sober with that frequency. AA are for people who want it not need it. Everyone is free to choose what they do in AA,
@rich2mcc The thing I like about 12 Steps programs, is that my level of involvement and belief are left up to me. I am not going to argue with you anymore about AA not being a religious cult. I can simply tell you that my experience over the years has been that it is not (though some act like it is). Just as AA is an integral part of my sobriety. You can tell me, that AA did not offer anything for you. I do not think without knowing me, knowing my story you can contradict my experience.
Lastly, even if your 95% failure rate is correct, if the program helps one in Twenty Alcoholics to stop drinking how is that a bad thing?
The way you presented your case which is mostly based on false logic, inappropiate comparisons and taking things out of context at the best, and intellectually dishonest or worst. Indicates someone who is slamming the program out of a resentment, rather than critical thinking.
@rich2mcc If the program promises a miracle to all 20, and then blames the 19 for said miracle not materializing, it is a very bad thing. AA is the ONLY place resentment, a natural, often-productive human emotion emotion, is demonized in ALL cases. Your allegations, unlike ours, lack substance and specificity. Thanks for posting. Mike
Having made those statements there is a degree of cognitive dissonance that occurs with members of AA as there is with everyone else who is unwilling to examine their beliefs. For *some* members the belief that AA is premier/only solution helps them to get over unfounded doubts that may have.
I personally, do not believe the same things or agree with a lot of people in the rooms. However, the program has kept me clean and sober for 30+ years.
@rich2mcc I am entirely ready to examine my beliefs. I do so regularly, and find them to be in direct contradiction to AA's teachings. I would counter that you have kept you clean and sober for 30+ years. Mike
@blamethenile You are right I have kept myself clean. However, I know without a doubt that I could not of done it without the 12 step fellowship. I tried for a long time to stop and stay stopped by myself and failed.
@rich2mcc You believe without doubt, but belief does not constitute fact. Because you found yourself in AA when you did stop does not prove that AA made you stop. Mike
@blamethenile Except I do know the reason I was able to stop it was due to the support I got at meetings. Believing that there was a force that was going to HELP me stay clean. The steps allowed me to overcome some of the problems and trauma that contributed to my drinking. Release myself from guilt by making amends. Finally teaching me to live my life in a way that does create the drama and chaos that I would seek a drink to escape from.
@blamethenile If you are going to refute the reasons I gave you for how AA helped me, I would strongly suggest that you look at your own cognitive dissonance. AA has helped me, that is a fact and I have concrete evidence that it did. However you are like the political ideologue who is always trying to prove their point of view instead of having a discussion and change of ideas. I am not saying that AA is the only way and I have agreed with you on AA is technically a religon (continued)
@blamethenile I have also conceded that cognitive dissonance does exist in AA. What I see is someone who needs to demonize AA to such an extreme, that they are unwilling to look at any evidence to the contrary.
You maybe correct in stating that AA is a religon. However, it does not have a dogma like most other religons. While the steps do ask you believe in a power greater than yourself or a god. AA does not tell you that you have to believe in a specific god or how god interacts in your life, which is how most people define religon. Most religons asks that you adopt their beliefs. I could not profess christianity and be muslim or vice versa. In AA you can.
@rich2mcc It is nothing but dogma--nonsensical, magical-thinking dogma. The steps "ask" nothing, but rather reflect the musings of a man who, by his own admission, never "worked the 7th on until years after he wrote it. AA does indeed define its god as one who grants favor, sobriety and serenity upon those who work the steps, go to meetings, and work with others. The lord's prayer and the serenity prayer are both Christian prayers, and the claim that they are nondenominational is a ruse. Mike
God does not grant me the favor of sobriety for steps, meetings and helping others. Working steps, going to meetings and helping others has a direct causal relationship to not drinking again.
The steps are not magical thinking, they include some very sound psychological principles for change. Having worked the steps I see a definite and clear relation to the steps and not going back to drinking.
Adapting a christian prayer does not make it non-demoninational.
@blamethenile While AA was born out of a christion group. It seperated from that group in order to establish itself as non demoninational. No where in any AA literature does it talk about jesus or christianity. The fact that muslims, buddhists, hindus, etc are welcome in the program and can work the program without abandonig their faith proves it is non-demoninational.
@blamethenile But it does refute your claim that "AA's nondenominational is a ruse". Since the definition of nondenominational is "Not restricted to or associated with a religious denomination". Which my point was. However, I am not surprised that you change the terms of the argument when they do not agree with you.
@rich2mcc Hi Rich, B l A m E here (not Mike) - my issue would be that indeed AA does allow you to believe in anything you like, but it also just so happens to tell you what to believe, ie through the steps, suggestions, traditions, and sharing. Anyway I am pleased AA is working for you. Kind regards, J a m e s G
If I take an oil painting class and quit after the first lesson, I could not claim that that the class does not teach you how to paint. Without knowing the reason for people choosing to leave AA it is difficult to attribute that to AA's success or failure. If you could point to a survey that shows why people leave the program That would give us a more accurate picture of whether people drop out due to the program not keeping them sober or not.
@rich2mcc If one signs up for an oil-painting class, and then find out that you have to convert to a strange belief system before you see the first brush, it isn't really a painting class. Hence, people leave. No need for a survey to figure that one out. Mike
This is really weak. Most of which you state as fact are subjective and cannot be proven or consist of making generalizations of AA members. You make false comparisons and take statements out of context. What you call as AA's biggest lie, is actually yours. The full quote is" rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly follwed our path." Most of those 95% do not stay with AA long enough to work the 12 steps. Which is what is meant by "thoroughly followed our path. (continued)
@rich2mcc AA deals exclusively within the realm of the subjective and the contrived. If the sentence left out the word "fail", it would be undeniably true. When 95% of all takers are constitutionally incapable of following a path, I personally am inclined to fault the path. Mike
I also think that there a re many different factions within AA. There are those who get the gist of it which is to live and be happy. Then there are fundamentalists who quote the big book as if it were a religious text. They promise doom and gloom if you are to stray. Sorry, I'm not a herd animal and I don't view the world a s predatory jungle.
One can recover without depending on the group itself. I did the 12 steps. I help others inside and outside of AA. I'm generally happy most of the time. However I don't attend meetings nearly as much as I used to. I dont subscribe to the hive mentality or stay close to the group at all. People always ask me "where ya been? haven't seen you in a while", assuming i drank. I tell them I've been living life. Thats what its really about anyway
@brutus30 The "where you been?" assumption of relapse is fairly universal, and is almost always rendered in a vey accusatory, knowing tone. Glad you are doing well, and thanks for checking in. Mike
Well, in defense of the high drop out rate, that can be explained by those court ordered to attend meetings as part of some probation or parole agreement. Another group which would be likely to drop out would be those who were "dragged in" by others AA members who really don't want to stop drinking, but for various reasons, such as checking it out, etc.
There is definitely a good deal of parroting and brainwashing they do, and they have a come back for everything, which is very culty.
@Skeletonya According to contemporary sources I have seen, AA has experienced single-digit retention rates since its earliest days. Wilson himself admitted as much several times. Mike
Part of the reason I found AA unhelpful was that it made recovery a melodrama and tried to convince everyone it was impossibly difficult when actually it needn't be.
OK, thanks, Mike. The cognitive dissonance was a trying and wearisome aspect for me too, and ultimately cancelled out any benefits. A lot of energy was wasted trying to make sense of a program that was incoherent and self-contradictory, trying to filter out messages that were irrelevant or undermining and dodging self-righteous zealots, when all I was seeking was a support group to stop drinking.
I don't bash AA because I have seen help many people live better lives but it honestly did nothing for me... I detoxed and never went back to Valium and tried AA but being an Atheist it did nothing for me. I wanted to stop and I did... simple. For others it isn't that easy.
I also am offended you would use such a powerful influential band as Tool to get your AA bashing point across. You probably don't even know the meaning of this song or the meaning of Tool as a whole. You should listen to the lyrics sometime. So keep coming back it works. Thank you. -Darren B.
You offend easily, but no surprise there. The meaning of Tool is to draw an audience, sell tickets, and to sell CDs. They are good at it, and successful. Rightfully so. Mike
@blamethenile@blamethenile No the meaning behind Maynards music is recovery. His first three albums were the first 4 steps. Tools work since then is about making amends etc. I have a feeling someone only got into the shallow end of the pool for fear of getting too wet. Do a REAL 4th step if you can muster the capacity to be honest.
@arizonabay07 I just did a quick 4th, and it turns out that I am very intolerant of serenity-bombing on our youtube channe. Hence, the block, and the deletes. Mike
AA has helped millions and is a wonderful program and to put it down shows fear in yourself and you probably are still a user. I would have to say we only have a 5% of people because staying sober is harder than getting through navy seal, army rangers and the airborne training put together.
Millions? Where are they? AA's own numbers suggest, at best, less than one million with years of continuous sobriety. I have been through airborne school, and abstinence is much easier. Mike
the fact to say that " AAers quickly abandon, repudiate, attack, and malign all who question, leave, doubt or criticise the fellowship" is only your opinion derived from a few individuals who are still progressing.. It doesn't represent AA as a whole. It is only a "we" program in the sense of unity. We work together to stay sober. It is your own individual program for recovery.
I am satisfied with the size of the pool from which I drew that conclusion. An opinion, yes, but one based upon years of research, observation, and experience. Nothing represents AA as a whole, since it is smoke and mirrors and snake-oil. Mike
The only way to judge AA is by the standard: one day at a time. AA teaches that sobriety comes in one day increments. To use the standard of quitting "forever," you appeal to my ego and logic but not my AA beliefs.
So, the test is NOT whether a person who attended AA is now drinking. The test is whether he stayed sober while in AA. Using that standard, AA is well over 95% effective. People don't start drinking and leave the fellowship. They leave the fellowship and start drinking.
I do judge it one day at a time. It performs as poorly today as it did yesterday, and the day before that, etc, all the way back to its origin. Of those who came in today, 90% will be gone in 30 days. They come, then they leave, and whether they are drinking or not is unknown. Nor does AA care to know. 95% annual attrition can only suggest one thing except, of course, to the cognitively dissonant and the magically-thinking. Mike
so the only way to add 2 & 2 is to compound individual quantities of '2' thereby resulting in a sum of 2: 1[2] + 1[2] = 2[2's]. if one then discards appeals to mathematical function & plain common-sense, one can clearly see that 2[2's] can be further combined to a singular discrete quantity of 4 (i.e., 1[4]).
step mathematics & logic: if you don't like the numbers or can't rely on rationality then just create an aphorism. one idiotic day at a time.
people need to rely upon their own judgement. Do you really need a 'spiritual awakening'; 'soul surgery' ; a sponsor? Decide for yourself. Figure out -- for yourself - what you want to do, then proceed to do it.
Find new interests; new activities.
It is a big world out there.
Sometimes drinking too much is exactly that -- drinking too much. Quit drinking and matters work out.
No I didn't learn anything valuable, honest, or reality based the entire years I spent trying to work the AA program. Better information exists outside of AA. AA doesn't work for the majority, because it is a fraud faith healing religious cult full of incurably diseased people and sick old-timers preying on vulnerable people with their dysfunctional social cult games. AA didn't give me any reason to stay sober. I am sober because I chose to be.
Contrary to what Scullysedge claims, there is plenty of 12 step alcoholism treatment in the UK, as he must know perfectly well if he does work in addiction treatment. There is also court-enforced meeting attendance.
Bush'es (George W more but his senior) closed the racial gap and won the Iraq war. Both a tribute to a "religious" non-racist, maybe libertarian ideology. Highly underrated long-term issues. Like Washington Crossing the Delaware. Tricky presidents like LB Johnson and Nixon don't make it in the US, they have the House of Representatives for the tricky politics. See f.e. aa and the highway act. It's called "checks and balances". Better to blame the neo-con and democrat's think tanks, & mass media?
I can have anger towards AA being a fraud cult harming people & it isn't going to kill me. My life improved since deprogramming. AA is a cult & if you are an AA member none of your cult mentality or ideologies applies to me. AA is a dangerous cult full of incurably diseased people with abnormal minds & bodies & nothing more. I don't want what AA thinks it has you can keep it. I know the path I am on is much better. AA members are trapped in a cult doing the 12 steps over & over & over forever!
I really hope you find some contentment. You seem incrediably angry, which is sad for you. These films are scary, but i have never experienced anything you talk about in AA. Maybe it is a yank thing? the only country in the world that would have a man like George Bush for president.
Politics are a fraud just like religion just like fraud religious faith healing cults like AA. The man who started these vids was from the UK & many people have the same tales to tell about the dogma & cult fellowship of AA. So many advances have been made in medicine, science, & even about addiction & alcoholism that AA will forever remain a fraud cult. My life is much happier w/out the cult of AA. I have a right to be angry at the cult of AA for how many people it has harmed.
To compare AA being a cult to an attack on a country's ex-prez makes no sense just like AA itself (typical AA illogic). There are many good & bad people in the world regardless of who puts themself on the throne. AA dominates the recovery industry with its fraud faith healing cult tactics. In AA you live by the first 164 pages of the BB's lies forever if you leave you will drink, go insane & die. Many of us left, deprogrammed, & live much happier lives without the cult of AA that is the truth.
No you missed the point about the president. I was saying that i'm sure AA in Yanky is terrible given that it is the only country stupid enough to elect Bush. You have no idea how i live my life, yet you state you do. That is delusional. I hope you get help.
The world is anti US and you can't see it. An arrogant society who truely believe they are right, delusional to the extreme, just like these little films. Very funny though. You must get your oats from youtube.
I am very clear why the world thinks & feels the ways it does. Have you ever stopped to think that many people in the US are regular, hard-working, good people just like exists in every country the world tries to make "the enemy"? I think good & bad people exist everywhere. The UK doesn't have a great historical reputation around the world either. Maybe some people do care enough to know it isn't "one country" or its citizens, but the entire system. Cultural ignorance. AA is a fraud cult.
Everyone in the US didn't elect the ex-prez anymore than all the people in the UK keep the queen in her castle. It has nothing to do with AA being a fraud cult here or anywhere else in the world. Many of us in the US & UK are warning people about the dangers of AA being a cult & its unsafe fellowship. At least we aren't trying to threaten people with death or insanity unless they surrender to God & attend the cult of AA forever. Speaking the truth takes more courage.
The Bush man was elected the queen is not. I attend AA and i don't surrender to God or anything. I am an Atheist. You are not speaking the truth, you believe you are which is delusional. you are merely speaking opinion which must be based on some terrible experience which has left you spending your time posting on youtube anonymously, which is quite sad. i hope you seek help.
hmmm ... an 'atheist' who who speaks of an objective 'truth' & has the temerity to label someone delusional based on the body of their YT posts.
what's that old AA saw about 'ego' & 'pointing fingers'?
bush was 'elected' by virtue of the supreme court the 1st time & by a 2% popular margin the second time. and the president/queen analogy is a canard - you did 'elect' religious nutbag tony blaire.
i hope you actually 'think' before posting here again.
You are delusional to imply that I elected anyone. How sad that your country doesn't have a choice to elect or not. AA is a fraud cult that is full of incurably diseased people practicing mental health, medicine, & religion without any formal training or license. It is fraud faith healing that harms more people than it helps. I spend less time here than all the time & resources I wasted attending the cult of AA. I don't need to seek "help" because AA is a cult. I already deprogrammed.
What have I not spoken the "truth" about? You can't name one thing. AA is a fraud cult, & it doesn't get any simpler than that. From day one AA was founded on fraud and cult tactics that are not honest when it comes to recovery. Bill W. never got well in his sobriety and I consider any of his "wisdom" to be null & void. Anyone can preach, but their reputation speaks louder than all the lies that lead people astray. No one has to attend the cult of AA forever in order to recover from alcoholism.
wilson began the whole BB/Alcoholics Anonymous kit & kaboodle as part of (if not the sole reason for) a commercial venture (e.g., 100 men corp., honor dealers, etc.). the idea was to sell BB's @ an inflated price to wealthy patrons who would then 'donate' them.
read white's "slaying the dragon". he's an AA proponent, but honest about AA's commercial schenanigans (e.g., the 'Knickerbocker Paradox' - a hospital wing funded & run by AA).
I think realizing how much AA is entwined into our systems, rehabs, courts, detoxes, & hospitals for profit as a goofy cure to alcoholism is what makes the "cult" so scary. I am happier to call myself an ex-cult member & to bash AA forever! I feel sorry for these people with more years even decades who finally realize they were duped who leave AA, because it isn't easy to realize how sick AA really is & the process of extracting yourself from the dogma & fellowship isn't easy but worth it!
Another thing these steppers don't realize is the "process" that it takes to deprogram from being in their cult. These vids & Orange helped, but ultimately I had to go through all the stages of leaving a cult & deprogramming alone & it was very uncomfortable. I am far enough away from AA's influence that steppers don't realize how ridiculous their stepping is or how fraudulant AA is on every level. Even with all the facts before them they will deny them away with some illogic, abuse, or dogma.
Then why not attend meetings and help people that way? I do! I hope you get some peace of mind. I don't sponsor anyone and have never experienced any of what you talk about in AA in the UK. Mind you, you are a yank and so its bound to be different over there. Good luck.
You really ought to use your own brain to throughly research & investigate the truth about AA's formation & its real history. Orange has real documents to prove AA's fraud. How long will it take you to wake up from your cult delusions & realize AA is a fraud cult and nothing more? How many decades are you going to waste trying to put AA cult methods off on vulnerable people, how many people are you going to harm being a sponsor? How long is it going to take for you to learn the truth?
I have looked at the history and orange, and a lot is correct about the history. i choose to make any changes from within rather than anonymously slag something off on the internet...thats quite sad. I also work in the drug and alcohol field and the 12 steps have nothing to do with it over here. Again must be different in yanky.
How dare you assume i don't use my own brain. You are quite obviously very damaged and i hope you get help before going over a cliff. You are totally unwilling to admit it works for some people whilst i am willing to admit it doesn't. You are a bigot in your thinking and that is quite sad. The truth comes from experience and mine is obviously totally different from yours. Good luck with everything and i really hope you seek help for your closed minded thinking.....take care.
You don't know me anymore than I don't know you, but you seem to side with AA. I wouldn't want your type of "help" in the field of alcohol or drugs. I am not trying to fake "help" anyone with fraud cult faith healing.
I left AA, because I did not like anything about the entire experience. It was so far removed from anything spiritual or honest. AA is not a wonderful or safe place to recover from anything. They don't even have reality based solutions to problems associated to alcohol. Being involved with AA was one of the worst experiences ever. I would rather got back to school where my mind can actually learn something. There is no growth in AA. It is stale, dishonest, unsafe, and misleading.
A YT comment box doesn't tell a complete story. I throughly worked the entire program of AA (AA doesn't suggest you leave) it was the truth about AA being a fraud faith healing cult full of incurably diseased people where OTs do horrible things to newcomers & all the affiliated programs AA denies being involved with. I deprogrammed from being in the cult of AA. The truth about AA being a cult has been proven and I can be angry that AA harms more people than it helps. AA is a stupid cult of lies.
i go to aa once or twice a week.i think the step and big book meetings are so horrible,i thinktheyhate me in aa because i got an independent type of mind,i never shout one liners,.many are unfit for psychiatric help even,.so the dump on aa and can be heard,i was told let the mad ones do the chairs,.i was told drive over relgioS freaks and steppers,i was told if i not better in 6months there is somthiNG else wrong wiht me,a LOT OF VERY SICK LONG TIMERS IN AA AND THEY SAY THEY SOBER,.
Groupers should take the advice given in ch 3,bbook and eventually try some CONTROLLED drinking...after 21 yrs i did the"hats off" experiment ol bill suggests and found that aa had cured--yeah CURED!-- me of meetings and drinking more than 2 ozs. per sitting. No desire= no membership. It was probably all the lithium i took for the loud ringing bells of cognitive dissonance i put up with in meetings; and out.h
Whoa, big fella. Pull out your resentment list, 'cuz you are getting a little angry. To start with, "loser" is spelled with only only one "o". Beyond that, I don't argue religion with people. We cannot change your mind, but hopefully some people who see this video and have yet to be brainwashed will avoid getting sucked into this cult. I've seen too many lives ruined by this organization.
You have not a single element of debate between you Picking up on a spelling mistake is as good as it gets.
Dont you think that we have brains and the ability to reason to understand the shortcomings of aa.You have nothing posotive or new to say and you will change nothing.I have only seen about six continuous posters on here and you cannot change the fact that probably 10 million or more worlwide are leading better l
People of NA AA are fascists & would've been well at home in Belsen Stalag or Auswitz as guards!
mrdubcrazy 2 weeks ago
Absolutely perfect song for your video on cognitive dissonance issues within the Alcoholics Anonymous crowds. Its a shame that so many people and institutions refuse to exercise any critical thought. Seriously people, if you're not thinking critically about anything, ever, you've lost the one thing that separates us from the animal world.
SleepingSheeple 2 months ago
so that stress that comes from the extreme thinking eventually starts to break a person down until they just say fuck it . and usually end up doing something stupid like drinking a whole bottle of 151 to the head or something driving down the freeway .
randomperson110 5 months ago
another thing , and this is just my opinion , is the extreme thinking . like - i'm either going to drink a gallon of vodka a day or nothing . and quit cold turkey and if i even go near or touch a drink i'll drink 5 kegs of beer immediately . in my opinion , someone has to be able to retrain themselves to drink more moderately . then there isn't the stress of it all . and it's very possible , even though they tell you you're powerless in so many ways , you're really not . there's a lot you can do
randomperson110 5 months ago
well there's a drop out rate for a few reasons , and i'm all past the aa conspiracy thing but i did have to deal with some rather complicated issues for a little while. but mostly , you have this higher power thing . which , i would imagine there are also many drop outs in religion due to unanswered prayers making someone think there's no god . or unexplainable things that people in religion usually try to maneuver around . adds up , time takes it's toll .
randomperson110 5 months ago
Talk about cognitive dissonance, the mere idea of a movement so steeped in American protestantism asking members to deify the "group" and in turn themselves be permitted to be deified as members of that group--well, it makes no logical sense and always seemed heretical to me. I realize we in the US aren't short on fundamentalists who presume to know the will of God or speak for "him", but like all other attempts at actual logic this fails in "meetings". I'm no fundie, nor anyone's higher power.
LexeconKiddo 5 months ago
Thanks for this, I am researching cognitive dissonance and the definition placed in the description box is useful.
I have had scant contact with N.A. and have had the 'principles' offered as solution to my "substance abuse" issues, though, I said, "if there is a higher force where was it when I was "abusing myself", if it is higher and a force then surely that implies in exists existentially", I walk away saying "sounds like this force needs me to abuse to justify its existent dependence on me".
mistaAnthonyWilson 7 months ago
How's it workin for us lol
RobynGermaine 8 months ago
fuck AA
TheRealEMURSE 8 months ago
Sorry for the Fight Club "Mash Up", just having fun. Keep it up, live long, love, love life and be free...
tapmatic 8 months ago
The first rule of A.A. is you do not talk about A.A. You are not your fucking perceptions. How much time you got? Look here, I'll have the steakside run the java and drag it through the garden- bro was on, layin it to the ground like a mutha, didn't tri[p. Shiiiiiii..... I have met some of the smartest most intelligent people in the universe in this program. Our great war is a spiritual war. Be well.
tapmatic 8 months ago
@tapmatic I have met few AA's who were interested in talking about much else. I have all the time you need, as long as you keep it civil, and sensible. Mike BD
blamethenile 8 months ago 5
@blamethenile It's so true how AA's only talk about recovery. I brought that up with many of my AA "friends" and why can't we just have a normal conversation. Why do you/we have to speak about recovery all the time. I have friends that are tagged as "normies" and I just want to have a regular kick back or heated debate that isn't recovery based. I brought that up to an "old timer" she said, "its because we are in recovery" I left Mormonism to another cult, no thanks to both.
hellstotheyesbaby 6 months ago
@tapmatic Brilliant use of "Airplane!" references, but otherwise....
LexeconKiddo 5 months ago
Interesting composition, however the fact remains AA has millions of successful stories and committed members to general service in 180 countries world wide. With a service structure unimaginable to some one who ignores the true meaning of AA.
I wish success in your philosophy of the AA fellowship.,..keep coming back!
mgzorro1 9 months ago
@mgzorro1 I almost wish for comments like yours, that is up to the point you ruin it by saying something stupid like, 'Keep Coming Back...' It is such a shame because both Mike and I are desperate for someone to come along that is willing to debate the points we make instead of parroting slogans as an underhand way of delivering an ad hominem. Oh well, take care. B l A m E
blamethenile 9 months ago
@blamethenileI could argue the fact that 99% of woman that have sex do not get pregnant.does that mean sex is not the vehicle to a higher creation. Expand your research you'll find out the rabbit hole is much deeper than you think within conscience of AA. By going again such movement you really are sucked into its main core of recovery as AA is inclusive and feeds on he who denies it. You are still at waiting room of step one. do not rush way in into the miracle of recover man,keep it simple!
mgzorro1 9 months ago
@mgzorro1 Again, it's a shame because you are right about one thing, and that is by our work we are kept close to AA to some degree, but my head is left spinning by all the psuedo-slogans in your comment. Regardless, thanks for making me think. Take care now, and no matter what you think of AA, if AA has helped you stay sober, I'm pleased for you. B l A m E
blamethenile 9 months ago
@blamethenile Hi there sorry I have yet much to learn you are right I looked up the meaning of hominem and that is not how I want to come across did not mean to insult you are or believes. I guess sometimes we tend to over react when faces authentic disagreements with out firs analyzing its objective and trying to bring it to conclusion. Have a good weekend I will read a little more into your postings and give you feed back as I understand them - MG
mgzorro1 9 months ago
@mgzorro1 Deep, very deep. Mike BD
blamethenile 9 months ago
@mgzorro1 So, if bashing AA is what keeps us sober, would that not be one of those Wilsonian paradoxes? Mike BD
blamethenile 9 months ago 4
weed tempers alcoholism - i find 6 beers and a spliff waaaay better than 16 beers - wish id learned that younger.
BiggerThinking1 10 months ago
@BiggerThinking1 What the hey, you know now. Thanks for the post. Mike BD
blamethenile 10 months ago
I've been sober over 5 years; I have gone to AA quite a bit. I am grateful for AA and the people that helped me when I was struggling with alcohol addiction. I have come to view AA like training wheels for newly-sober people. It's like learning to ride a bike or play the piano. Once I found my own higher power, I did not need to lean on AA anymore. I still go to meetings once in a while to be of service.
sharlenemusiclover 10 months ago
@sharlenemusiclover It is good that you have been able to move beyond the spiritual kindergarten spoken of in the text. Unfortunately for some, such an exit strategy is not encouraged or discussed in any of the 12-step doctrine. In fact, quite the opposite is the case. Thanks for posting, Mike BD
blamethenile 10 months ago
AA IS TRULY RELIGIOUS, BUT FULL OF "SPIRITUAL" PEOPLE,
ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN UNDERSTANDING (WHICH IS
MOSTLY OF A SUPERIOUR ATTITUDE NATURE).
LYING IS THE MOST COMMON THING IN A.A.
CHECK THIS OUT:
SATAN IS A LIER & THE FATHER OF LIES !"
& COMPARE IT WITH TRADITION TWO:
“For our group purpose there is but one ultimate
authority – A loving "God" (Father) as He may express
Himself in our group conscience."
IGOROZKARSKY 1 year ago
I like how you pick a choose little sentences to defend your belief, instead of using the whole sentence. "Rarely have we seen a person fail..." ... "who has thoroughly follow our steps." Also, you saying that all of those things that are clearly your opinion are fact is complete bullshit. If you don't like AA, that's great. It works for some people, and clearly not everyone. I know plenty of people who do AA and it works for them, they live a happy life that is not just AA.
mc20071 1 year ago
@mc20071 "path", not "steps", but I digress. The rest of the paragraph you cite is an exercise in derision, repudiating all who do not buy into Wilson's crapola, much like you try to do here. If you don't like Blamethenile, that's great. It works for some people, and clearly not everyone. I know plenty of people who tried AA and think it sucks. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
Check out the concept of 'Patternicity." There is an interesting video on Ted.org that will get you started. Then look at the patterns the 12 step programs teach their members. Patternicity explains the dissonance very well. The only thing it doesn't explain is the peer pressure.
iwantcollectibles 1 year ago
In other words, blaming is a dissonance reduction strategy.
beachlaurie 1 year ago
@beachlaurie I would call it is more of a coping strategy. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile Yes. I think "coping strategy" is an excellent way to put it. In fact I've come to think of "character defects" as dsyfunctional coping stragegies.
beachlaurie 1 year ago
Hey Mike. I just reading up on CD myself. I came across this definition from WikiPedia: "The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance. They do this by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and actions. Dissonance is also reduced by justifying, blaming, and denying. It is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology."
As in, the "sour grapes" reaction.
beachlaurie 1 year ago
@beachlaurie Sour grapes? Not at all. Changes of attitude, belief and action are potentially-positive approachs, while justification, blame, and denial are devices more commonly used to maintain the status quo within one's head. Good post. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Interesting video. I appreciate the perspective. I think one of the most important messages in AA is taking personal inventory/responsibility for my behaviour. Blaming others (eg. blaming AA) IS a manifestion of cognitive dissonance.
beachlaurie 1 year ago
@beachlaurie I have never seen blame listed anywhere as a manifestation fo CD. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@beachlaurie I do not regard myself as faultless, and neither do I see AA as so either. The difference between AA and myself is that I am open to challenge. I blame AA for very little, however I do state it does not work for the vast majority. Is that allowed? Or are we entering a realm where pointing out AA flaws is dismissed as 'blaming' there by letting AA off the hook? B l A m E
blamethenile 1 year ago
Comment removed
beachlaurie 1 year ago
The church of AA tries to treat something which is clearly a medical condition. If Jesus hasn't worked for a person before they walking in and said "Hello my name is Jim", how do hope to treat the medical condition then? With good intentions?
bigboy45454545 1 year ago
@bigboy45454545 First off Jesus does not have anything to do with AA.
The medical part of Alcoholism is the physical dependenc on Alcohol, which is usually treated by a detox. The other part is psychological and/or spiritual in nature. Without treating these problems, the person is more likely to relapse. The steps are combination of spiritual and psychological exercises that help to treat those aspects of the disease.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc Oh so Jesus isn't the higher power that 75% of the AA people pray to? And what part of AA helps people to detox, the spiritual part? And what is spirituality anyways? It's a belief in nonsense just like religion. Do you believe in Santa Claus too. AA like religion, wants you to feel powerless. I can do anything with the power of myself, not the power of imaginary friends. Believe what you like. A belief in nonsense just means you're not a critical thinker. I reject it all.
bigboy45454545 1 year ago
@bigboy45454545 I have no idea where you got the 75% at (actually I do), I would strongly refute that having direct experience with people in AA. Most AA people Abhor organized religion.
"And what part of AA helps people to detox, the spiritual part?" Actually what I said was that mostly people are sent to a detox to withdrawal.
Whether what I believe in is nonsense is a matter of opinion. However, blasting something by making stuff up is not real high in the critical thinking scale.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc Well let's see over 75% of people in your country see Jeebus as the higher power, so that's a no brainer.
And 95% of people don't stick with AA, and that's not my opinion, that's the majority consensus. And that's not made up. People have better success going going it alone, not just a little better. Far better. I'm sure if people really believe it The Tooth Fairy could help people to quite too, or maybe Thor or Apollo.
bigboy45454545 1 year ago
@bigboy45454545 I must admit that I was surprised by that statistic. I sure don't see it either in or out of AA. However, my point is that AA does tell people how or what to believe in regards to a Higher Power. Most people do not mention a specific god or religion (unless they are talking about how it screwed them up). BTW you absolutely can be an atheist in AA or any other 12 step program, though most people aren't. It isn't just about the belief and the Tooth Fairy reference shows how...
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@bigboy45454545 Knowledge you have of the program. The 12 steps, which are founded on very sound psychological principles are what really make a difference in peoples lives. I have watched peoples lives transform as they work the steps. They have better jobs, better relationships and are better people. They strive to make a positive impact in any endeavor.
In regards to the success rate and people go it alone do better, Almost everyone I know in any 12 step program has tried to do it by ...
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc People do what they gotta do. But it's clear that AA isn't the best therapy for this medical condition.
bigboy45454545 1 year ago
@bigboy45454545 I don't think AA is for everyone or that other ways may work. However, I know what the program has done for me and others who have been willing to work the program.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc I'm very glad an continued success for you and all others who work the program. Take care, and easy does it.
bigboy45454545 1 year ago
@rich2mcc And we know what the methods, dogma, doctrine, and outcomes of 12-step programs are. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile Well if you look at the pages 83-84 of the Big Book, they are called the twelve promises.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc Your point? Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@rich2mcc What sound psychological principles are you referring to? There isn't one contained in any of the 12 steps. They more closely resemble a formula for religious conversion and subsequent proselytization than anything in the realm of psychology. I too, have watched peoples' lives "transformed" in the church of steppism, but seldom as you describe. Most often, they become more and more dedicated to life within the rooms, and less with the outside world. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile Mike, I am convinced that you have no desire to open your mind to anything that will spoil your need to hate AA. However, how about, admitting you have a problem, Step One. Realizing that you can change and making a decision to do so, Two and three. Looking at yourself and self disclosure(isn't that what psychotherapy is?) Steps four and five. Hold yourself accountable for your behavior. (Steps Eight and Nine). Daily self examination, being willing to learn from your mistakes
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc You confuse gullibility with open-mindedness, it seems. Admissions of powerlessness and insanity followed by a surrender to the God of Bill Wilson aren't sound psychological principles. nor are ongoing inventories and confessions of sin. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile The reason you only see those that hide in AA is you cognitive disosnance refuses for you to recognize those who become better people in all areas of their life.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc Re-check the definition of cognitive dissonance. That is one you seem to own. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@bigboy45454545 by themselves or dozens of other ways before coming to a 12 step program. So if it people stop by themselves that is great, but not everyone does or can. Those are the people that end up in 12 step program.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc AA is usually the first stop for those finding themselves with alcohol-related problems. What dozens of other ways are you referring to? AA tries to convince them that they can't stop by themselves, hence the demand for the admission of powerlessness in the very first step, which is often the topic of discussion whenever newcomers are present in a meeting. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile Lets see I want to stop drinking am I going to try to stop on my own first or I am going to seek help? You are telling me that people choose the later, Really? Repeat, almost every alcoholic or addict who seeks help to stop drinking has tried to stop on their own and failed. Maybe dozens is an exageration. Real religon or church, psychaitry, psychology, hypnosis, other types of self help groups. Real self help cults like Lifespring, the forum and EST. accupuncture, etc.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc Let me get this straight--you and your AA pals tried all those things BEFORE you had to go to AA to get your slips signed? Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile very few people come into AA through court cards. Most of those are not going there to stop drinking. People who want to stop, try to stop on their own before they seek help. We don't all try all of those, but most have tried at least one. The last thing alcoholics want to do is admit to being alcoholic, so they will avoid any assistance that involves that admission.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc By AA's own reckoning, over 60% of all new members are there under under some form of coercion. Your assertions have no basis in fact. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile I am not sure exactly what constitutes some form of coercion. However, if AA states that 60% are coerced into AA I will accept that number. Even though my personal experience is different. I still stand on my statement that most people who come to AA because they *want* to quit drinking, have already tried to quit on their own and failed.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc Judges, spouses, doctors, etc can all evert coercive influences on people who don't want to quit drinking, but find themselves in AA. I quit drinking and then went to AA, as did most of the successful quitters I have known. Many of them gave AA all the credit for their success, which is their business. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile I am glad that you have been able to stop drinking on your own. For an Alcoholic to stop drinking regardless of method is an impressive feat. I have not interest in calling you a dry drunk, or trying to tell you, you are not an alcoholic. It does not threaten me or my belief in AA if someone does it some other way.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@blamethenile Despite what you may think I am not an AA zealot and I consider my critical thinking skills above average. I hear a lot of things in the rooms, that I do not agree with and I think are pretty lame. I also, hear a lot of things that I find very insightful and helpful as well. I don't agree with the Big Books view on justifiable anger among other things. Some of your criticisms are valid if applied to some members of the program, but *I* do not see as a whole.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc Just don't express these things in a meeting and you will do well, they persecute dissenters,you know.
seeker4trth 1 year ago
@seeker4trth I have been around for 30+ plus years. While some people may not like what I share at meetings nobody ever persecuted me or anyone else for it.
You can look at a lot of the literature, what you hear members say about the program, etc. and see a cult or at least a religon where people are forced to do certain things and believe certain things in order to be a part of the organization. The reality is that nobody is going to force you to do anything.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
While maybe a sponsor well tell you to do something. But, There is nothing stopping you from telling him to f-off and find someone else or not. There are people who outside of step one, have never worked another step and have been sober for years. Some people may make meetings once every other month or six months if they are able to stay sober with that frequency. AA are for people who want it not need it. Everyone is free to choose what they do in AA,
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc The thing I like about 12 Steps programs, is that my level of involvement and belief are left up to me. I am not going to argue with you anymore about AA not being a religious cult. I can simply tell you that my experience over the years has been that it is not (though some act like it is). Just as AA is an integral part of my sobriety. You can tell me, that AA did not offer anything for you. I do not think without knowing me, knowing my story you can contradict my experience.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
Lastly, even if your 95% failure rate is correct, if the program helps one in Twenty Alcoholics to stop drinking how is that a bad thing?
The way you presented your case which is mostly based on false logic, inappropiate comparisons and taking things out of context at the best, and intellectually dishonest or worst. Indicates someone who is slamming the program out of a resentment, rather than critical thinking.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc If the program promises a miracle to all 20, and then blames the 19 for said miracle not materializing, it is a very bad thing. AA is the ONLY place resentment, a natural, often-productive human emotion emotion, is demonized in ALL cases. Your allegations, unlike ours, lack substance and specificity. Thanks for posting. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
Having made those statements there is a degree of cognitive dissonance that occurs with members of AA as there is with everyone else who is unwilling to examine their beliefs. For *some* members the belief that AA is premier/only solution helps them to get over unfounded doubts that may have.
I personally, do not believe the same things or agree with a lot of people in the rooms. However, the program has kept me clean and sober for 30+ years.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc I am entirely ready to examine my beliefs. I do so regularly, and find them to be in direct contradiction to AA's teachings. I would counter that you have kept you clean and sober for 30+ years. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile You are right I have kept myself clean. However, I know without a doubt that I could not of done it without the 12 step fellowship. I tried for a long time to stop and stay stopped by myself and failed.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc You believe without doubt, but belief does not constitute fact. Because you found yourself in AA when you did stop does not prove that AA made you stop. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile Except I do know the reason I was able to stop it was due to the support I got at meetings. Believing that there was a force that was going to HELP me stay clean. The steps allowed me to overcome some of the problems and trauma that contributed to my drinking. Release myself from guilt by making amends. Finally teaching me to live my life in a way that does create the drama and chaos that I would seek a drink to escape from.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@blamethenile If you are going to refute the reasons I gave you for how AA helped me, I would strongly suggest that you look at your own cognitive dissonance. AA has helped me, that is a fact and I have concrete evidence that it did. However you are like the political ideologue who is always trying to prove their point of view instead of having a discussion and change of ideas. I am not saying that AA is the only way and I have agreed with you on AA is technically a religon (continued)
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc Testimonials aren't facts, either. You believe AA helped you, and you like AA. Those are the facts as I see them. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile I have also conceded that cognitive dissonance does exist in AA. What I see is someone who needs to demonize AA to such an extreme, that they are unwilling to look at any evidence to the contrary.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc Contrary to what? Present evidence, and we will have a look, no problem. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile Yeah right!
rich2mcc 1 year ago
You maybe correct in stating that AA is a religon. However, it does not have a dogma like most other religons. While the steps do ask you believe in a power greater than yourself or a god. AA does not tell you that you have to believe in a specific god or how god interacts in your life, which is how most people define religon. Most religons asks that you adopt their beliefs. I could not profess christianity and be muslim or vice versa. In AA you can.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc It is nothing but dogma--nonsensical, magical-thinking dogma. The steps "ask" nothing, but rather reflect the musings of a man who, by his own admission, never "worked the 7th on until years after he wrote it. AA does indeed define its god as one who grants favor, sobriety and serenity upon those who work the steps, go to meetings, and work with others. The lord's prayer and the serenity prayer are both Christian prayers, and the claim that they are nondenominational is a ruse. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile you wrote:
God does not grant me the favor of sobriety for steps, meetings and helping others. Working steps, going to meetings and helping others has a direct causal relationship to not drinking again.
The steps are not magical thinking, they include some very sound psychological principles for change. Having worked the steps I see a definite and clear relation to the steps and not going back to drinking.
Adapting a christian prayer does not make it non-demoninational.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@blamethenile While AA was born out of a christion group. It seperated from that group in order to establish itself as non demoninational. No where in any AA literature does it talk about jesus or christianity. The fact that muslims, buddhists, hindus, etc are welcome in the program and can work the program without abandonig their faith proves it is non-demoninational.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc Religious inclusiveness does not negate religiosity, particularly in AA's case. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
@blamethenile But it does refute your claim that "AA's nondenominational is a ruse". Since the definition of nondenominational is "Not restricted to or associated with a religious denomination". Which my point was. However, I am not surprised that you change the terms of the argument when they do not agree with you.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc Hi Rich, B l A m E here (not Mike) - my issue would be that indeed AA does allow you to believe in anything you like, but it also just so happens to tell you what to believe, ie through the steps, suggestions, traditions, and sharing. Anyway I am pleased AA is working for you. Kind regards, J a m e s G
blamethenile 1 year ago
If I take an oil painting class and quit after the first lesson, I could not claim that that the class does not teach you how to paint. Without knowing the reason for people choosing to leave AA it is difficult to attribute that to AA's success or failure. If you could point to a survey that shows why people leave the program That would give us a more accurate picture of whether people drop out due to the program not keeping them sober or not.
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc If one signs up for an oil-painting class, and then find out that you have to convert to a strange belief system before you see the first brush, it isn't really a painting class. Hence, people leave. No need for a survey to figure that one out. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
This is really weak. Most of which you state as fact are subjective and cannot be proven or consist of making generalizations of AA members. You make false comparisons and take statements out of context. What you call as AA's biggest lie, is actually yours. The full quote is" rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly follwed our path." Most of those 95% do not stay with AA long enough to work the 12 steps. Which is what is meant by "thoroughly followed our path. (continued)
rich2mcc 1 year ago
@rich2mcc AA deals exclusively within the realm of the subjective and the contrived. If the sentence left out the word "fail", it would be undeniably true. When 95% of all takers are constitutionally incapable of following a path, I personally am inclined to fault the path. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
I also think that there a re many different factions within AA. There are those who get the gist of it which is to live and be happy. Then there are fundamentalists who quote the big book as if it were a religious text. They promise doom and gloom if you are to stray. Sorry, I'm not a herd animal and I don't view the world a s predatory jungle.
brutus301 1 year ago
One can recover without depending on the group itself. I did the 12 steps. I help others inside and outside of AA. I'm generally happy most of the time. However I don't attend meetings nearly as much as I used to. I dont subscribe to the hive mentality or stay close to the group at all. People always ask me "where ya been? haven't seen you in a while", assuming i drank. I tell them I've been living life. Thats what its really about anyway
brutus301 1 year ago
@brutus30 The "where you been?" assumption of relapse is fairly universal, and is almost always rendered in a vey accusatory, knowing tone. Glad you are doing well, and thanks for checking in. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
Amazing!
mwmethos 1 year ago
Well, in defense of the high drop out rate, that can be explained by those court ordered to attend meetings as part of some probation or parole agreement. Another group which would be likely to drop out would be those who were "dragged in" by others AA members who really don't want to stop drinking, but for various reasons, such as checking it out, etc.
There is definitely a good deal of parroting and brainwashing they do, and they have a come back for everything, which is very culty.
Skeletonya 1 year ago
@Skeletonya According to contemporary sources I have seen, AA has experienced single-digit retention rates since its earliest days. Wilson himself admitted as much several times. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
Part of the reason I found AA unhelpful was that it made recovery a melodrama and tried to convince everyone it was impossibly difficult when actually it needn't be.
MrTobytwirl 1 year ago
Hey, Toby, Good to see you posting. How are things? Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
OK, thanks, Mike. The cognitive dissonance was a trying and wearisome aspect for me too, and ultimately cancelled out any benefits. A lot of energy was wasted trying to make sense of a program that was incoherent and self-contradictory, trying to filter out messages that were irrelevant or undermining and dodging self-righteous zealots, when all I was seeking was a support group to stop drinking.
MrTobytwirl 1 year ago
@MrTobytwirl that is true, I've left AA/NA two months ago after 11 yrs and the drama is dissipating gradually.
breda83 1 year ago
I don't bash AA because I have seen help many people live better lives but it honestly did nothing for me... I detoxed and never went back to Valium and tried AA but being an Atheist it did nothing for me. I wanted to stop and I did... simple. For others it isn't that easy.
MrSpieldose 1 year ago
I also am offended you would use such a powerful influential band as Tool to get your AA bashing point across. You probably don't even know the meaning of this song or the meaning of Tool as a whole. You should listen to the lyrics sometime. So keep coming back it works. Thank you. -Darren B.
dnboyd 2 years ago
You offend easily, but no surprise there. The meaning of Tool is to draw an audience, sell tickets, and to sell CDs. They are good at it, and successful. Rightfully so. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
@blamethenile @blamethenile No the meaning behind Maynards music is recovery. His first three albums were the first 4 steps. Tools work since then is about making amends etc. I have a feeling someone only got into the shallow end of the pool for fear of getting too wet. Do a REAL 4th step if you can muster the capacity to be honest.
arizonabay07 1 year ago
@arizonabay07 I just did a quick 4th, and it turns out that I am very intolerant of serenity-bombing on our youtube channe. Hence, the block, and the deletes. Mike
blamethenile 1 year ago
grow up dnboyd
Justexactly what is 'AA bashing' all about?
Sombody criticising your pet organization? Poor thing
dix345 2 years ago
get a grip mister
dix345 2 years ago
@dnboyd "All you read and
Wear or see and
Hear on TV
Is a product
Begging for your
Fairly dirty
Dollar
Shut up and Buy, buy, buy, my new record
Buy, buy, buy, send more money"
Lyrics of Hooker With A P*nis, so yeah, Mike, you're right ;) B l A m E
blamethenile 1 year ago
AA has helped millions and is a wonderful program and to put it down shows fear in yourself and you probably are still a user. I would have to say we only have a 5% of people because staying sober is harder than getting through navy seal, army rangers and the airborne training put together.
dnboyd 2 years ago
Millions? Where are they? AA's own numbers suggest, at best, less than one million with years of continuous sobriety. I have been through airborne school, and abstinence is much easier. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
prove it dnboyd
dix345 2 years ago
the fact to say that " AAers quickly abandon, repudiate, attack, and malign all who question, leave, doubt or criticise the fellowship" is only your opinion derived from a few individuals who are still progressing.. It doesn't represent AA as a whole. It is only a "we" program in the sense of unity. We work together to stay sober. It is your own individual program for recovery.
dnboyd 2 years ago
I am satisfied with the size of the pool from which I drew that conclusion. An opinion, yes, but one based upon years of research, observation, and experience. Nothing represents AA as a whole, since it is smoke and mirrors and snake-oil. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
AA rhetoric. speak english, not steppish
dix345 2 years ago
The only way to judge AA is by the standard: one day at a time. AA teaches that sobriety comes in one day increments. To use the standard of quitting "forever," you appeal to my ego and logic but not my AA beliefs.
So, the test is NOT whether a person who attended AA is now drinking. The test is whether he stayed sober while in AA. Using that standard, AA is well over 95% effective. People don't start drinking and leave the fellowship. They leave the fellowship and start drinking.
pepperjms 2 years ago
I do judge it one day at a time. It performs as poorly today as it did yesterday, and the day before that, etc, all the way back to its origin. Of those who came in today, 90% will be gone in 30 days. They come, then they leave, and whether they are drinking or not is unknown. Nor does AA care to know. 95% annual attrition can only suggest one thing except, of course, to the cognitively dissonant and the magically-thinking. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
No. Draw a line under it. And, get on. Full stop.
dix345 2 years ago
hmmm ...
so the only way to add 2 & 2 is to compound individual quantities of '2' thereby resulting in a sum of 2: 1[2] + 1[2] = 2[2's]. if one then discards appeals to mathematical function & plain common-sense, one can clearly see that 2[2's] can be further combined to a singular discrete quantity of 4 (i.e., 1[4]).
step mathematics & logic: if you don't like the numbers or can't rely on rationality then just create an aphorism. one idiotic day at a time.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
people need to rely upon their own judgement. Do you really need a 'spiritual awakening'; 'soul surgery' ; a sponsor? Decide for yourself. Figure out -- for yourself - what you want to do, then proceed to do it.
Find new interests; new activities.
It is a big world out there.
Sometimes drinking too much is exactly that -- drinking too much. Quit drinking and matters work out.
dix345 2 years ago 2
'AA is a bridge to normal living' vs 'if you don't go to meetings you will relapse'?
there is an AA answer to everything. But the big BUT is that 'you didn't drink' ...apparently.
did you learn stuff there ? i have to say i did. but there are a lot of sick people there too.
ambivalent....
sinc43 2 years ago
Yes, we did learn a lot there. Hence, these vids. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
No I didn't learn anything valuable, honest, or reality based the entire years I spent trying to work the AA program. Better information exists outside of AA. AA doesn't work for the majority, because it is a fraud faith healing religious cult full of incurably diseased people and sick old-timers preying on vulnerable people with their dysfunctional social cult games. AA didn't give me any reason to stay sober. I am sober because I chose to be.
humyepright 2 years ago 2
Contrary to what Scullysedge claims, there is plenty of 12 step alcoholism treatment in the UK, as he must know perfectly well if he does work in addiction treatment. There is also court-enforced meeting attendance.
tobytwirrll 2 years ago
AA sucks balls.
discuss ...
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
Bush'es (George W more but his senior) closed the racial gap and won the Iraq war. Both a tribute to a "religious" non-racist, maybe libertarian ideology. Highly underrated long-term issues. Like Washington Crossing the Delaware. Tricky presidents like LB Johnson and Nixon don't make it in the US, they have the House of Representatives for the tricky politics. See f.e. aa and the highway act. It's called "checks and balances". Better to blame the neo-con and democrat's think tanks, & mass media?
andreasheinz 2 years ago
Please seek some help. you are delusional and being eaten alive by rage. don't let it kill you.
scullysedge 2 years ago
I can have anger towards AA being a fraud cult harming people & it isn't going to kill me. My life improved since deprogramming. AA is a cult & if you are an AA member none of your cult mentality or ideologies applies to me. AA is a dangerous cult full of incurably diseased people with abnormal minds & bodies & nothing more. I don't want what AA thinks it has you can keep it. I know the path I am on is much better. AA members are trapped in a cult doing the 12 steps over & over & over forever!
humyepright 2 years ago
I really hope you find some contentment. You seem incrediably angry, which is sad for you. These films are scary, but i have never experienced anything you talk about in AA. Maybe it is a yank thing? the only country in the world that would have a man like George Bush for president.
scullysedge 2 years ago
Politics are a fraud just like religion just like fraud religious faith healing cults like AA. The man who started these vids was from the UK & many people have the same tales to tell about the dogma & cult fellowship of AA. So many advances have been made in medicine, science, & even about addiction & alcoholism that AA will forever remain a fraud cult. My life is much happier w/out the cult of AA. I have a right to be angry at the cult of AA for how many people it has harmed.
humyepright 2 years ago
To compare AA being a cult to an attack on a country's ex-prez makes no sense just like AA itself (typical AA illogic). There are many good & bad people in the world regardless of who puts themself on the throne. AA dominates the recovery industry with its fraud faith healing cult tactics. In AA you live by the first 164 pages of the BB's lies forever if you leave you will drink, go insane & die. Many of us left, deprogrammed, & live much happier lives without the cult of AA that is the truth.
humyepright 2 years ago
No you missed the point about the president. I was saying that i'm sure AA in Yanky is terrible given that it is the only country stupid enough to elect Bush. You have no idea how i live my life, yet you state you do. That is delusional. I hope you get help.
scullysedge 2 years ago
"Delusional" is thinking that your anti-US rhetoric will fly here. See you in the funny papers. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
The world is anti US and you can't see it. An arrogant society who truely believe they are right, delusional to the extreme, just like these little films. Very funny though. You must get your oats from youtube.
miketheroseman 2 years ago
This channel is about AA, not the US. Maybe you and scullysedge can start your own anti-US channel. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
I am very clear why the world thinks & feels the ways it does. Have you ever stopped to think that many people in the US are regular, hard-working, good people just like exists in every country the world tries to make "the enemy"? I think good & bad people exist everywhere. The UK doesn't have a great historical reputation around the world either. Maybe some people do care enough to know it isn't "one country" or its citizens, but the entire system. Cultural ignorance. AA is a fraud cult.
humyepright 2 years ago
Everyone in the US didn't elect the ex-prez anymore than all the people in the UK keep the queen in her castle. It has nothing to do with AA being a fraud cult here or anywhere else in the world. Many of us in the US & UK are warning people about the dangers of AA being a cult & its unsafe fellowship. At least we aren't trying to threaten people with death or insanity unless they surrender to God & attend the cult of AA forever. Speaking the truth takes more courage.
humyepright 2 years ago
The Bush man was elected the queen is not. I attend AA and i don't surrender to God or anything. I am an Atheist. You are not speaking the truth, you believe you are which is delusional. you are merely speaking opinion which must be based on some terrible experience which has left you spending your time posting on youtube anonymously, which is quite sad. i hope you seek help.
miketheroseman 2 years ago
hmmm ... an 'atheist' who who speaks of an objective 'truth' & has the temerity to label someone delusional based on the body of their YT posts.
what's that old AA saw about 'ego' & 'pointing fingers'?
bush was 'elected' by virtue of the supreme court the 1st time & by a 2% popular margin the second time. and the president/queen analogy is a canard - you did 'elect' religious nutbag tony blaire.
i hope you actually 'think' before posting here again.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
You are delusional to imply that I elected anyone. How sad that your country doesn't have a choice to elect or not. AA is a fraud cult that is full of incurably diseased people practicing mental health, medicine, & religion without any formal training or license. It is fraud faith healing that harms more people than it helps. I spend less time here than all the time & resources I wasted attending the cult of AA. I don't need to seek "help" because AA is a cult. I already deprogrammed.
humyepright 2 years ago
What have I not spoken the "truth" about? You can't name one thing. AA is a fraud cult, & it doesn't get any simpler than that. From day one AA was founded on fraud and cult tactics that are not honest when it comes to recovery. Bill W. never got well in his sobriety and I consider any of his "wisdom" to be null & void. Anyone can preach, but their reputation speaks louder than all the lies that lead people astray. No one has to attend the cult of AA forever in order to recover from alcoholism.
humyepright 2 years ago 2
wilson began the whole BB/Alcoholics Anonymous kit & kaboodle as part of (if not the sole reason for) a commercial venture (e.g., 100 men corp., honor dealers, etc.). the idea was to sell BB's @ an inflated price to wealthy patrons who would then 'donate' them.
read white's "slaying the dragon". he's an AA proponent, but honest about AA's commercial schenanigans (e.g., the 'Knickerbocker Paradox' - a hospital wing funded & run by AA).
bill wanted to get paid.
and he did.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
I think realizing how much AA is entwined into our systems, rehabs, courts, detoxes, & hospitals for profit as a goofy cure to alcoholism is what makes the "cult" so scary. I am happier to call myself an ex-cult member & to bash AA forever! I feel sorry for these people with more years even decades who finally realize they were duped who leave AA, because it isn't easy to realize how sick AA really is & the process of extracting yourself from the dogma & fellowship isn't easy but worth it!
humyepright 2 years ago
Another thing these steppers don't realize is the "process" that it takes to deprogram from being in their cult. These vids & Orange helped, but ultimately I had to go through all the stages of leaving a cult & deprogramming alone & it was very uncomfortable. I am far enough away from AA's influence that steppers don't realize how ridiculous their stepping is or how fraudulant AA is on every level. Even with all the facts before them they will deny them away with some illogic, abuse, or dogma.
humyepright 2 years ago
Then why not attend meetings and help people that way? I do! I hope you get some peace of mind. I don't sponsor anyone and have never experienced any of what you talk about in AA in the UK. Mind you, you are a yank and so its bound to be different over there. Good luck.
scullysedge 2 years ago
You really ought to use your own brain to throughly research & investigate the truth about AA's formation & its real history. Orange has real documents to prove AA's fraud. How long will it take you to wake up from your cult delusions & realize AA is a fraud cult and nothing more? How many decades are you going to waste trying to put AA cult methods off on vulnerable people, how many people are you going to harm being a sponsor? How long is it going to take for you to learn the truth?
humyepright 2 years ago
I have looked at the history and orange, and a lot is correct about the history. i choose to make any changes from within rather than anonymously slag something off on the internet...thats quite sad. I also work in the drug and alcohol field and the 12 steps have nothing to do with it over here. Again must be different in yanky.
scullysedge 2 years ago
How dare you assume i don't use my own brain. You are quite obviously very damaged and i hope you get help before going over a cliff. You are totally unwilling to admit it works for some people whilst i am willing to admit it doesn't. You are a bigot in your thinking and that is quite sad. The truth comes from experience and mine is obviously totally different from yours. Good luck with everything and i really hope you seek help for your closed minded thinking.....take care.
scullysedge 2 years ago
You don't know me anymore than I don't know you, but you seem to side with AA. I wouldn't want your type of "help" in the field of alcohol or drugs. I am not trying to fake "help" anyone with fraud cult faith healing.
humyepright 2 years ago
scully - you don't 'use your brain'; your brain uses you. that's just the human condition.
why come here, toss around 12 step platitudes where they've been rejected countless before & then insult commenters who don't completely agree w/you.
that's silly & unproductive.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
I left AA, because I did not like anything about the entire experience. It was so far removed from anything spiritual or honest. AA is not a wonderful or safe place to recover from anything. They don't even have reality based solutions to problems associated to alcohol. Being involved with AA was one of the worst experiences ever. I would rather got back to school where my mind can actually learn something. There is no growth in AA. It is stale, dishonest, unsafe, and misleading.
humyepright 2 years ago 2
It took you years to get to that conclusion?
This video is hilarious, by the way.
scullysedge 2 years ago
A YT comment box doesn't tell a complete story. I throughly worked the entire program of AA (AA doesn't suggest you leave) it was the truth about AA being a fraud faith healing cult full of incurably diseased people where OTs do horrible things to newcomers & all the affiliated programs AA denies being involved with. I deprogrammed from being in the cult of AA. The truth about AA being a cult has been proven and I can be angry that AA harms more people than it helps. AA is a stupid cult of lies.
humyepright 2 years ago
But it took you years to leave? Strange.
scullysedge 2 years ago
i go to aa once or twice a week.i think the step and big book meetings are so horrible,i thinktheyhate me in aa because i got an independent type of mind,i never shout one liners,.many are unfit for psychiatric help even,.so the dump on aa and can be heard,i was told let the mad ones do the chairs,.i was told drive over relgioS freaks and steppers,i was told if i not better in 6months there is somthiNG else wrong wiht me,a LOT OF VERY SICK LONG TIMERS IN AA AND THEY SAY THEY SOBER,.
suirvale 2 years ago
You are practising medicine without a license. You will desist now.
dix345 2 years ago
Groupers should take the advice given in ch 3,bbook and eventually try some CONTROLLED drinking...after 21 yrs i did the"hats off" experiment ol bill suggests and found that aa had cured--yeah CURED!-- me of meetings and drinking more than 2 ozs. per sitting. No desire= no membership. It was probably all the lithium i took for the loud ringing bells of cognitive dissonance i put up with in meetings; and out.h
yardta 2 years ago
Hey, H, Thanks for the post. Your take on CD on the various boards was a huge inspiration for writing this vid. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
You will never succeed in your futile mission to proove AA is a cult.
How can you guys be taken seriously when you cannot even have a sensible debate.
There are multi millions worldwide who live by the 12 steps and i guess you dozen or so foools must be right and the mass wrong?
Fucking idiots.Get a fucking life you bunch of loosers
kevphillips02 2 years ago
Whoa, big fella. Pull out your resentment list, 'cuz you are getting a little angry. To start with, "loser" is spelled with only only one "o". Beyond that, I don't argue religion with people. We cannot change your mind, but hopefully some people who see this video and have yet to be brainwashed will avoid getting sucked into this cult. I've seen too many lives ruined by this organization.
sharksandwich50 2 years ago
You are a complete fool.
You have not a single element of debate between you Picking up on a spelling mistake is as good as it gets.
Dont you think that we have brains and the ability to reason to understand the shortcomings of aa.You have nothing posotive or new to say and you will change nothing.I have only seen about six continuous posters on here and you cannot change the fact that probably 10 million or more worlwide are leading better l