wow, that was such a beautiful tale. You sound like you were born with the mind of a perfect little scientist: skeptical, but open-minded, and yet knowing when the evidence was good enough to say "case closed." That's really wonderful. I hear stories of atheist parents who have children like that. I can only hope that my children turn out the same way.
If you teach your children to think critically *and* be tolerant, then they probably will be open-minded skeptics. At least you will save them from the anxiety that many who have been raised to be "god-fearing" suffer.
I'm a little envious of people who were skeptics as children. I wasted the first 25 years of my life believing wholeheartedly in Christianity. Trying to reconcile it with the reality of the world around me almost drove me crazy. :/
That's an interesting way of putting it. I think that at 3, I simply failed to fully understand the "house" metaphor -- and that insight helped when illogical things were said about Bible stories.
This is probably what you mean about difficulties reconciling myth with reality. I have observed that many Xians try to resolve the conflict by altering "reality".
I guess that did sound a little strange. :P What I mean is that when I was very young, and something from the bible didn't make sense (umm...like everything, haha), I'd ask my parents about it. They always seemed to have very reasonable-sounding explanations for everything. When there were times when I still felt conflicted, I'd choose to believe the biblical account. I was a very credulous child, lol. You're right about many Xtians altering reality to fit their faith. -
- So I tend to think of people who always struggled to believe the illogical bible stories as having been "child skeptics", and I consider them lucky. I fought hard against my own skepticism until just a few years ago. (It just took too much energy to keep rationalizing the irrational.) :D
You must have been a skeptical child -- otherwise you would not have questioned. Some people seem never to question any of the stories.
I was lucky, because deconversion sounds rather traumatic. Milton was actually rather a relief, because then I really could dismiss all the propaganda with certainty. I was alone with it until well into university -- it just wasn't discussed. But it was worth it -- absent "God" and all made sense.
Personally, I did find deconversion very traumatic. But then it was so amazing to suddenly have *everything* just fall into place. Everything made sense, and my perspective just naturally straightened itself out. The way I feel now is the most peace I've ever felt. When I found the truth, a huge burden was lifted from me. But I still feel pretty annoyed at how I was brainwashed, lol. :D
One of the things that bugs me the most about it is how it affected my education. -- (cont)
-- I am really happy for people who weren't raised in a deeply religious household for that reason as well. I'm still trying to get up to speed in all the natural sciences. :)
I spent about half of my school years in Christian school, where they didn't teach us science at all. In public school, everything I learned in biology was "undone" by my parents and church. I was told repeatedly that evolution was untrue and against god, and as a consequence I barely passed my science classes. I also struggled with history - I didn't understand why biblical "history" wasn't included in my course work. Argh. Sometimes I wish I could turn back time and redo K-12. :P
That sounds insane, unfair to kids, and "illegal". In English grammar schools, we began mandatory science at age 11. Science was required for matriculation at high school in Australia. And several science credits are required subject for a high school diploma in Canada.
I think that the difficulty for American children lies in the huge number of independent school boards and what must be a lack of a required syllabus.
No wonder American 15-yr olds fare so poorly on average on the PISA exams!
I understand why you complained about religion's impact on your knowledge of the natural sciences!
I loved most subjects, but I would have hated to miss out on science. It teaches kids to think critically. Trying to justify an untruth such as creationism forces people to deny facts and/or to think backwards.
That's one of my chief objections to religion -- negative impacts on a huge number.
You can't turn back time, but can you not catch up on the science that you missed?
I know that time and money can be a huge problem for adults who want to continue -- or improve -- their education. However, there are lots of online courses. In fact, there are lots of complete university courses on YT. Not that those lead to a degree, but they are very convenient.
Actually, I think that the history of the Bible is fascinating. Not the content, mind, just the history ;)
I have considered going back to college, but resources are a bit tight. For the time being, I'm learning as much as I can from online resources and books (that I should have read years ago, haha). It's not the same as a good school of course, but I feel I've learned more in just the past year on even YouTube than I did in all the years I spent in Christian school. LOL! :D (That says something about Bible School, heh.)
I completely agree with you about the history of the (cont -)
- the history of the Bible is definitely fascinating. :)
One of my favorite books is "The Source" by Michener. Not exactly a history of the bible itself, but sort of a history of the Christian religion. I had bags under my eyes for a week after picking up that book for the first time - I couldn't put it down and it is LONG. Haha. :P
- I just re-read your "3" comment and realized you'd said that there are university classes uploaded on YT...? I'll check that out, thanks! :)
About the low scores in the USA - that always gets me - every time the new (low) national scores are announced, it sparks a discussion on 'why', and no one seems to be willing to state the truth, at least on national TV. When lesson plans are left up to the discretion of creationist teachers, the result is kids who aren't equipped to deal with the real world. :(
When I started college, it was a complete 180, and I didn't fare well. I was totally unprepared.
I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this.
I've been trying to find my old transcripts from Christian (high) school, but haven't found them yet. As far as I can remember, our subjects were: Western Civ, Math, English (not literature though - they restricted our access to only a few select books), Old Testament Studies, New Testament Studies, Phys Ed, and....that's all I can remember at the moment. (yikes! haha.)
I wonder if it is illegal to not teach science in HS? (cont)
It doesn't surprise me that many who deconvert describe a feeling of peace. I had assumed that it was loss of fear of hell as well as reduction of self-blame as "sinners".
Obviously, cognitive dissonance is also a huge burden. Thinking backwards must be tiring, but it must also be confusing and unsettling at that deep level of doubt.
Logic-alarm bells clanged loudly in me. It sounds as though they tolled for you too.
You're exactly right. The loss of fear of hell, loss of guilt, and knowing that a (very scary) god wasn't judging my every thought brought such a great feeling of relief.
I love how you phrased that last line in your post: "Logic-alarm bells clanged loudly in me. It sounds as though they tolled for you too." - I'm so grateful they did finally toll for me.
...I just got a wild urge to run into a church service and yell "Clang! Clang! Clang!" :D
// wild urge to run into a church service and yell "Clang! Clang! Clang! //
Chortle! ;)
But don't do it! The congregation would probably decide that it was a sign of a spiritual epiphany and YT would soon be deluged (inadvertant religious metaphor) with videos proclaiming the new religious movement.
Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing -- they are terribly short on new material ;^/
Argh! YT isn't letting me post comments from my main account.
Sorry, I didn't mean strange so much as an interesting way of describing any process that begins at 3.
Fortunately, I did not ask my parents very much about religion -- they were not actively religious. I heard more at school, and considered much of it either illogical or highly unlikely.
I think that most children are credulous because they know too little to be able to evaluate what they are told. I agree with Dawkins that credulity serves a survival purpose.
I was lucky -- my parent were very mild believers (they are atheist now). My father encouraged critical thinking.
It must be hard for kids who are sent to places like Jesus Camp, where "witches" terrify them into cognitive submission.
Actually, religious belief commandeers neural pathways that evolved for other purposes. There's an excellent (but long!) video here : watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
I view religious delusion as using the same abilities that kick in when we read a novel. ...
Most of us are capable of transmuting words on a page into a character and events to which we can relate emotionally. The difference is that we *know* that the characters in the novel are *not *real.
Religionists seem never to grow past the imaginary-friend phenomenon. They equate "feelings" about a dead man and the god-concept to existence of the object of their adoration, hopes, and fears.
Yes, I think that they are lying to themself. They do it for selfish, emotional reasons.
(Assuming, that is, that you achieved rational rather than emotional disbelief. Some survivors of abuse lose faith for reasons of betrayal of promises of love and protection.)
AncientAtheist said you were bright and he wasn't kidding!
There probably was some feeling of betrayal at age 4 (for the reason you gave), but I never questioned my lack of belief as I aged. The whole God and Jesus thingie just never made any sense to me. There are just far too many holes, discrepancies, unanswered questions, and illogical stories in the Bible.
Too bad that it was the reasons that I gave. (I'm not sure that I'd call it bright -- it just happens to be my line of work.) Oh, what the heck, I should not look a compliment in the mouth!
Thanks ;)
It sounds as though rationality dominated for you, though. I hear much the same thing from many atheists. Logic wins out over emotionality. Perhaps it is mostly the atheists who choose to tackle theistic illogic on YT. I suspect that the complete reverse operates for YT anti-atheists.
No, never look a compliment in the mouth. You seem fairly bright to me. You got it in one! You're welcome, by the way. :)
Who else is going to tackle theistic illogic if not the atheists? Theists certainly aren't going to do it; however, I have seen some deists on YouTube tackle it as well.
Yes, theists won't do it nowadays. They used to correct one another's apologetic failures back in the days when nobody was officially an atheist. Now they have closed ranks.
There are quite a few deconverted fundamentalists and intelligent deists on YouTube. It's amazing how many are former students of theological colleges.
Cool. I love de-con stories and I LOVE kids who are smart enough to figure things out! To this day, one of my biggest joys is watching videos by the younger members of our community who are far wiser than I was at their age (although I was wise enough to figure out there was no god by that time).
I sure wasn't following studies about work on abiogenesis when I was 10 or 12 though! And I sure as shit wasn't having any doubts at 3! This was great. My one great pride - Always been outspoken!
I find decon stories interesting too. Some poor folk have such a hard time! You're right -- so many kids are refreshingly wise.
If my father had said, "This is a cathedral. People come here to worship God", then I would not have stumbled onto doubt so young. The Miller-Urey story was in a newspaper article, so it was just serendipitous that I found it. It appealed because I had been given a beloved science encyclopedia when I was about 9. It suited my inquisitive streak.
I can identify with trying to believe as a child, but never quite being able to.
Good vid. Only request I would have is to increase the volume of your sound, editing software permitting. The max volume on my mobile isn't quite loud enough in a public transport setting.
wow, that was such a beautiful tale. You sound like you were born with the mind of a perfect little scientist: skeptical, but open-minded, and yet knowing when the evidence was good enough to say "case closed." That's really wonderful. I hear stories of atheist parents who have children like that. I can only hope that my children turn out the same way.
infinitum17 1 year ago
@infinitum17
I guess that's why I studied science ;^/
If you teach your children to think critically *and* be tolerant, then they probably will be open-minded skeptics. At least you will save them from the anxiety that many who have been raised to be "god-fearing" suffer.
musekiteer 1 year ago
I loved it.
AtheistxNinja 2 years ago
I'm a little envious of people who were skeptics as children. I wasted the first 25 years of my life believing wholeheartedly in Christianity. Trying to reconcile it with the reality of the world around me almost drove me crazy. :/
333holly333 2 years ago
// skeptics as children //
That's an interesting way of putting it. I think that at 3, I simply failed to fully understand the "house" metaphor -- and that insight helped when illogical things were said about Bible stories.
This is probably what you mean about difficulties reconciling myth with reality. I have observed that many Xians try to resolve the conflict by altering "reality".
musekiteer 2 years ago
I guess that did sound a little strange. :P What I mean is that when I was very young, and something from the bible didn't make sense (umm...like everything, haha), I'd ask my parents about it. They always seemed to have very reasonable-sounding explanations for everything. When there were times when I still felt conflicted, I'd choose to believe the biblical account. I was a very credulous child, lol. You're right about many Xtians altering reality to fit their faith. -
333holly333 2 years ago
- So I tend to think of people who always struggled to believe the illogical bible stories as having been "child skeptics", and I consider them lucky. I fought hard against my own skepticism until just a few years ago. (It just took too much energy to keep rationalizing the irrational.) :D
333holly333 2 years ago
You must have been a skeptical child -- otherwise you would not have questioned. Some people seem never to question any of the stories.
I was lucky, because deconversion sounds rather traumatic. Milton was actually rather a relief, because then I really could dismiss all the propaganda with certainty. I was alone with it until well into university -- it just wasn't discussed. But it was worth it -- absent "God" and all made sense.
musekiteer 2 years ago
Personally, I did find deconversion very traumatic. But then it was so amazing to suddenly have *everything* just fall into place. Everything made sense, and my perspective just naturally straightened itself out. The way I feel now is the most peace I've ever felt. When I found the truth, a huge burden was lifted from me. But I still feel pretty annoyed at how I was brainwashed, lol. :D
One of the things that bugs me the most about it is how it affected my education. -- (cont)
333holly333 2 years ago
(cont)
-- I am really happy for people who weren't raised in a deeply religious household for that reason as well. I'm still trying to get up to speed in all the natural sciences. :)
333holly333 2 years ago
Did you not get some education in the natural sciences at high school?
Science was mandatory at HS in Australia, but I took extra because I loved science.
musekiteer 2 years ago
I spent about half of my school years in Christian school, where they didn't teach us science at all. In public school, everything I learned in biology was "undone" by my parents and church. I was told repeatedly that evolution was untrue and against god, and as a consequence I barely passed my science classes. I also struggled with history - I didn't understand why biblical "history" wasn't included in my course work. Argh. Sometimes I wish I could turn back time and redo K-12. :P
333holly333 2 years ago
Good grief! No science in Christian schools?!
That sounds insane, unfair to kids, and "illegal". In English grammar schools, we began mandatory science at age 11. Science was required for matriculation at high school in Australia. And several science credits are required subject for a high school diploma in Canada.
I think that the difficulty for American children lies in the huge number of independent school boards and what must be a lack of a required syllabus.
... contd
musekitier 2 years ago
2
No wonder American 15-yr olds fare so poorly on average on the PISA exams!
I understand why you complained about religion's impact on your knowledge of the natural sciences!
I loved most subjects, but I would have hated to miss out on science. It teaches kids to think critically. Trying to justify an untruth such as creationism forces people to deny facts and/or to think backwards.
That's one of my chief objections to religion -- negative impacts on a huge number.
... contd
musekitier 2 years ago
3
You can't turn back time, but can you not catch up on the science that you missed?
I know that time and money can be a huge problem for adults who want to continue -- or improve -- their education. However, there are lots of online courses. In fact, there are lots of complete university courses on YT. Not that those lead to a degree, but they are very convenient.
Actually, I think that the history of the Bible is fascinating. Not the content, mind, just the history ;)
musekitier 2 years ago
(cont, 3)
I have considered going back to college, but resources are a bit tight. For the time being, I'm learning as much as I can from online resources and books (that I should have read years ago, haha). It's not the same as a good school of course, but I feel I've learned more in just the past year on even YouTube than I did in all the years I spent in Christian school. LOL! :D (That says something about Bible School, heh.)
I completely agree with you about the history of the (cont -)
333holly333 2 years ago
(cont, 4)
- the history of the Bible is definitely fascinating. :)
One of my favorite books is "The Source" by Michener. Not exactly a history of the bible itself, but sort of a history of the Christian religion. I had bags under my eyes for a week after picking up that book for the first time - I couldn't put it down and it is LONG. Haha. :P
- I just re-read your "3" comment and realized you'd said that there are university classes uploaded on YT...? I'll check that out, thanks! :)
333holly333 2 years ago
(cont, 2)
About the low scores in the USA - that always gets me - every time the new (low) national scores are announced, it sparks a discussion on 'why', and no one seems to be willing to state the truth, at least on national TV. When lesson plans are left up to the discretion of creationist teachers, the result is kids who aren't equipped to deal with the real world. :(
When I started college, it was a complete 180, and I didn't fare well. I was totally unprepared.
333holly333 2 years ago
I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this.
I've been trying to find my old transcripts from Christian (high) school, but haven't found them yet. As far as I can remember, our subjects were: Western Civ, Math, English (not literature though - they restricted our access to only a few select books), Old Testament Studies, New Testament Studies, Phys Ed, and....that's all I can remember at the moment. (yikes! haha.)
I wonder if it is illegal to not teach science in HS? (cont)
333holly333 2 years ago
It doesn't surprise me that many who deconvert describe a feeling of peace. I had assumed that it was loss of fear of hell as well as reduction of self-blame as "sinners".
Obviously, cognitive dissonance is also a huge burden. Thinking backwards must be tiring, but it must also be confusing and unsettling at that deep level of doubt.
Logic-alarm bells clanged loudly in me. It sounds as though they tolled for you too.
musekiteer 2 years ago
You're exactly right. The loss of fear of hell, loss of guilt, and knowing that a (very scary) god wasn't judging my every thought brought such a great feeling of relief.
I love how you phrased that last line in your post: "Logic-alarm bells clanged loudly in me. It sounds as though they tolled for you too." - I'm so grateful they did finally toll for me.
...I just got a wild urge to run into a church service and yell "Clang! Clang! Clang!" :D
333holly333 2 years ago
// wild urge to run into a church service and yell "Clang! Clang! Clang! //
Chortle! ;)
But don't do it! The congregation would probably decide that it was a sign of a spiritual epiphany and YT would soon be deluged (inadvertant religious metaphor) with videos proclaiming the new religious movement.
Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing -- they are terribly short on new material ;^/
Argh! YT isn't letting me post comments from my main account.
musekitier 2 years ago
Sorry, I didn't mean strange so much as an interesting way of describing any process that begins at 3.
Fortunately, I did not ask my parents very much about religion -- they were not actively religious. I heard more at school, and considered much of it either illogical or highly unlikely.
I think that most children are credulous because they know too little to be able to evaluate what they are told. I agree with Dawkins that credulity serves a survival purpose.
musekiteer 2 years ago
great story and welcome back to reality
dreamy2 2 years ago
Yeah, about one year of total unreality was quite enough for me!
The more I learn about the Bible and religion, the more I am glad that I escaped into incredulity ;D
musekiteer 2 years ago
I was right!! :)
Excellent video and these are mostly all
the things I have thought throughout my
childhood and beyond as well. I guess some
of us just don't have that 'god-gene' that
most ppl seem to have. I know I sure don't.
I have never felt god and wondered as a
child why everyone else did but me.
paulusmagirl 2 years ago
I remember, when I was 14, my grandfather
dying when we were all there at the hospital,
and my grandmother saying how at the moment
of his death she felt Jesus wrap his arms
around him and carry him to heaven. I was
perplexed to say the least. I didn't see or
feel anything like that at all. I thought,
what the hell do others see and feel that
I never do. I was never very great at lying
to myself.
paulusmagirl 2 years ago
I was lucky -- my parent were very mild believers (they are atheist now). My father encouraged critical thinking.
It must be hard for kids who are sent to places like Jesus Camp, where "witches" terrify them into cognitive submission.
Actually, religious belief commandeers neural pathways that evolved for other purposes. There's an excellent (but long!) video here : watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
I view religious delusion as using the same abilities that kick in when we read a novel. ...
musekiteer 2 years ago
2 ...
Most of us are capable of transmuting words on a page into a character and events to which we can relate emotionally. The difference is that we *know* that the characters in the novel are *not *real.
Religionists seem never to grow past the imaginary-friend phenomenon. They equate "feelings" about a dead man and the god-concept to existence of the object of their adoration, hopes, and fears.
Yes, I think that they are lying to themself. They do it for selfish, emotional reasons.
musekiteer 2 years ago
Yes, that's what I always say----The amazing huge
human ego.
paulusmagirl 2 years ago
Interesting decon story. You beat me by one year. I stopped believing at age 4, with no subsequent doubts though.
PhyllisSophical 2 years ago
"No subsequent doubts" -- well done!
We did it the easy way ;)
(Assuming, that is, that you achieved rational rather than emotional disbelief. Some survivors of abuse lose faith for reasons of betrayal of promises of love and protection.)
musekiteer 2 years ago
AncientAtheist said you were bright and he wasn't kidding!
There probably was some feeling of betrayal at age 4 (for the reason you gave), but I never questioned my lack of belief as I aged. The whole God and Jesus thingie just never made any sense to me. There are just far too many holes, discrepancies, unanswered questions, and illogical stories in the Bible.
PhyllisSophical 2 years ago
Too bad that it was the reasons that I gave. (I'm not sure that I'd call it bright -- it just happens to be my line of work.) Oh, what the heck, I should not look a compliment in the mouth!
Thanks ;)
It sounds as though rationality dominated for you, though. I hear much the same thing from many atheists. Logic wins out over emotionality. Perhaps it is mostly the atheists who choose to tackle theistic illogic on YT. I suspect that the complete reverse operates for YT anti-atheists.
musekiteer 2 years ago
No, never look a compliment in the mouth. You seem fairly bright to me. You got it in one! You're welcome, by the way. :)
Who else is going to tackle theistic illogic if not the atheists? Theists certainly aren't going to do it; however, I have seen some deists on YouTube tackle it as well.
PhyllisSophical 2 years ago
Yes, theists won't do it nowadays. They used to correct one another's apologetic failures back in the days when nobody was officially an atheist. Now they have closed ranks.
There are quite a few deconverted fundamentalists and intelligent deists on YouTube. It's amazing how many are former students of theological colleges.
Hmmm ... not so amazing really ;)
musekiteer 2 years ago
Cool. I love de-con stories and I LOVE kids who are smart enough to figure things out! To this day, one of my biggest joys is watching videos by the younger members of our community who are far wiser than I was at their age (although I was wise enough to figure out there was no god by that time).
I sure wasn't following studies about work on abiogenesis when I was 10 or 12 though! And I sure as shit wasn't having any doubts at 3! This was great. My one great pride - Always been outspoken!
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
I find decon stories interesting too. Some poor folk have such a hard time! You're right -- so many kids are refreshingly wise.
If my father had said, "This is a cathedral. People come here to worship God", then I would not have stumbled onto doubt so young. The Miller-Urey story was in a newspaper article, so it was just serendipitous that I found it. It appealed because I had been given a beloved science encyclopedia when I was about 9. It suited my inquisitive streak.
musekiteer 2 years ago
I can identify with trying to believe as a child, but never quite being able to.
Good vid. Only request I would have is to increase the volume of your sound, editing software permitting. The max volume on my mobile isn't quite loud enough in a public transport setting.
rozeboosje 2 years ago
I think that we who could not believe any of the fairy tales were the lucky ones -- some deconversion stories are quite painful.
I had the volume cranked up to the max. I might need to swallow the mike to get any more volume out of the beast.
musekiteer 2 years ago
No worries - I can always wait until I get home ;-)
rozeboosje 2 years ago
Thank's for sharing.
cursingyorick 2 years ago
Nice :) Good to hear your story.
Vogter2100 2 years ago
Great story. Thank you.
Antichryst666 2 years ago