Re: Shocking Gaza CNN revelation is worthless!! why??

[lizard944]

For those with limited attention spans, I'll sum up this video: Israel broke the ceasefire. Ta Da!!!

[wind4watts]

Without these tunnels even more Kids would Die from lack of Medicines & food that is brought in , they are starving there in that prison, causing uneccesary suffering upon Civilians like this is what is called 'group punishment' and is a Crime against Humanity, same as what so Brits hanged 350 Nazi War Criminals for at the end of WW2.

[wind4watts]

Kidnap Israelis? 3,400 Palestinians are Illegally Imprisoned by Israel now and 1 (one) IDF Soldier by Palestinians without Trial mainly Teenagers & Kids, Palestinians are treated lower than Dogs by Israeli Govt Army & Armed 'settlers' they are Killed at anytime, they have no electricity now and illegal 'checkpoints' have made 80% of Palestinians unemployed & their Kids cannot even get to schools (you can be lined up 5-8 hours at these heckpoints)

[Tugieboy]

if israel really want peace between yourself and the palestinians , why doesnt israel sit around the table with hamas?? this has nothing to do with "islamic jihad"..that is your excuse , hamas has said many times we will stop firing rockets if you give us our border back from 1964..but israel doesnt listens?? why ?? because israel his agenda is to take over entire palestine and turn it again in israel , you say it is not simple??JUST GIVE THEM THERE BORDERS BACK AND THEY WILL STOP

[Tugieboy]

but israel refuses..and why are u talking about hamas building tunnels??and " plotting " why should hamas stop smuggling weapons?? DONT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE WEAPONS??israel buys tons of weapons from usa every day...the reason they buy weapons is because they need it to protect themselfs..if u want the palestinians to stop digging tunnels perhaps u should open the borders perhaps??????listen israel is the aggressor here , u kill 1000s babies and then u ask from them to stop attacking you??

[Tugieboy]

u treath them like piggs,whenever a palestinian dares to enter a jewish settlement he is chased out by jewish settlers trowing bottles&running after him with guns&knives...you teach your children to trow stones at palestinian babies&mothers AND U HAVE DONE SO FOR 60YEARS...NOW HOW THE FUCK ARE U GOING TO EXPECT FROM PALESTINIANS TO LOVE&RESPECT YOU&don't fire any missiles??GIVE THEM THERE LAND BACK HAMAS HAS SAID 10000times give us back the borders from 1964&we stop firing missiles

[eclecticCircus2]

@Tugieboy

Silly person. Lots of Palestinians work in the settlements.

And I'm pretty sure you don't want the '64 borders, but let's say in the case of Gaza yes. Now how are you going to convince Egypt to take Gaza back?



[zawjatsaid1]

@eclecticCircus2 Alot of Jews worked concentration camps in Germany too. Israel is breaking many international laws and Israel is the terrorist regime.

[Tugieboy]

i can't believe these jews , they occupie palestinian lands,murder children and women , kidnapp palestinian children and kill them to take there organs to sell onthe black markets,the israelis have " no palestinian allowed " zones and palestinians arent allowed to use public highways they have to use dirtroads..u steal there international foodsupplies they get FROM OUR MONEY WE SEND TO THEM and only give 20% to them and keep 80% for themselfs , u lock them up behind a wall ,

[Unity4allhumans]

WHO the FUCK is Israel to place restriction upon people for the basic human rights/essentials? AND On Legal Palestinian territory? Thats outright illegal!

These people are not FREEMAN and they can not Negotiate with a superior legalised Terror group, and Terror state of Israel.

[Unity4allhumans]

For once in your LIFE put your shoes in their shoes! For once stop thinking of them as Goyims or Gentiles empathise.

You are the younger generation you can either break these Illegal atrocities or you can continue to your fathers Goals of Greater Israel. AT the expense of slowly, cruelly & inhumanely exterminating the indigenous Palestinians.

[nasir440]

Shut up you stupid idiot.

Go for tards like yourself.

Read Statistics before you blow up tard from your mouth.

more than 1100 children, women were killed in the last gaza war out of 1520

[SupportDemocracyNow]

honestly, in despite of what everyone is saying about the Zionists controlling the media, im hearing a pretty one sided argument on behalf of the Palestinians.

[agabrielus]

1.5 billion Muslim and 16,000,000 Jews

In the world

Like all liberal channels money is more important then the truth

[PalestinianV]

fight for ever

[flickingback]

ha ha

[pandorachild]

oppps meant that for the idiot who said fuck israel, man great debate u have here. think i used up all my comments for tonight. stupid u tube i reply to a coment and it goes elsewhere :P

[flickingback]

fuck israel

[cantfindanameilike]

Reuters - 12 Aug 2008

"Israel closed border crossings with the Gaza Strip on Tuesday in response to a cross-border rocket attack. A rocket fired from the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip on Monday struck near the centre of Sderot."

"Hamas-controlled." Even if Hamas didnt fire the weapons they can still be held accountable as they are in charge of that area.

If Hamas doesnt do their job to stop these cross border attacks then Israel under international law has the right to go in and stop them.

[cantfindanameilike]

Thank you for the video. I am compiling this information for a new pr site I am working on. This video has been bookmarked. thanks

[brabon1]

al jazeerah is now reporting that hamas is starting to rebuild the smuggling tunnels

a violation of the current cease fire

hope israel goes back in and blows the place to hell

hope mads gilbert goes back to gaza and a brave idf soldier shoots that sob right in the head

[americanmuslimgirl]

What about the smuggling line from the US to Israel? When is that going to get bombed?

[mbrown0315]

Wait, and you're accusing me of changing the topic? I can give you a whole bunch of commentary on US aid to Israel (which I think is both positive and negative), but how does this relate to who broke the ceasefire? Was this part of the ceasefire agreement? No.

[americanmuslimgirl]

No, I was talking to someone else who brought up the tunnels.

[MuslimPrincess4ever]

Actually the Isreali's broke the ceasefire.

They killed 6 Hamas gunman, durung the ceaefire.

Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into southern Israel, although no one was injured.

~Wednesday 5 November 2008~

Isrealis lie, Zionist lie, and you lie.

sorry if it hurts but thats the truth.

peace

[mbrown0315]

A quick lesson in argumentation...

When someone makes an argument, you can't deny the argument simply by saying it's a lie. You need to bring evidence.

I say in my video that the building of a 250-meter, cross-border tunnel was indeed a violation of both the letter and spirit of the ceasefire.

Your response: "You lie. The Israelis broke the ceasefire."

Again, that simply won't suffice.

[mbrown0315]

Furthermore, the fact that the rockets didn't kill anyone is irrelevant. Israel has early warning systems and bomb shelters to keep its citizens safe. So the fact that the rockets don't cause as much damage as they could is not for want of will and intention on the Palestinian side. Rockets fired is a violation. It's not just rockets that kill people.

Also, I make it clear in my video that the ceasefire was pointless from the beginning, so all this talk about who broke it is boring to me.

[brabon1]

actually, hamas continued to fire rockets during the ceasefire...testing to see if israel would respond

[americanmuslimgirl]

Oh, and I've got all your deflection, lies, changing the subject, use of emotion, lack of logic memorized too. You guys are very predictable. You are going to get all pissy now and start spouting something off about.... well.... we'll see what you are going to spout off about. Whatever it is, it will be obvious.

[mbrown0315]

Please share. I take constructive criticism. It's also interesting that you say "[we're] very predictable," and then proceed to say, "You are going to get all pissy now and start spouting something off about.... well.... we'll see what you are going to spout off about. Whatever it is, it will be obvious."

[americanmuslimgirl]

Again, I was not replying to you. If you were as predictable as the other Zionists I run into, I wouldn't even waste my time with you.

[MuslimPrincess4ever]

You said:

"The fact that the Israeli military had gathered intelligence on Gaza and had planned out the operation does not mean that they were planning on going ahead with it."

dogblessamerica :

'Weapon smuggling through tunnels.'

If obtaining weapons was a breach of the ceasefire, presumably Israel wasn't allowed to access any weapons or consolidate its military during the ceasefire either? Double standards. ***************

peace

[mbrown0315]

Negative.

Israel is surrounded by hostile countries and several terrorist organizations. It did not sign ceasefires with Islamic Jihad, PFLP, Hezbollah, Syria, etc. That's why it would have been unreasonable to force Israel to refrain from "access[ing] any weapons"

Hamas, on the other hand, would really only use it weapons against Israel. Therefore, it is not a double standard.

[MuslimPrincess4ever]

They- Isreal -admitted so you can't beat around the bush this time. sorry, good luck next time.

peace

[mbrown0315]

Israel admitted it had planned for the operation. That's all. And that's perfectly legitimate. Your claim that I'm beating around the bush does not constitute an argument. It's just an accusation. That won't suffice.

[MuslimPrincess4ever]

I hope God opens your eyes.

Iv'e had enough tears, maybe you will see what i see one day.

How would you feel with your children dead. Every single member of your family killed,dead in on single bomb.

The biggest open air prison,...that does not let anyone leave, but locked in. A sieage and a blockade that doesn't let anything in. No food,medicine, fuel. No electricity in the house.. hardley any water?Water.

No justice,...and yet Isreal is all you dream about.

[mbrown0315]

Your appeal to my emotions is futile. I could just as easily ask you how you would feel if you were the relative of someone killed in Sderot.

Your response would obviously be that many more Palestinians have been killed, and the conversation shifts to numbers.

I'm not denying that life in Gaza is terrible. I'm simply questioning the solution most people propose to that. ("Just end the occupation! Open the crossings! End the blockade! Voila! Peace!")

[mbrown0315]

I want Palestinians to live in dignity, but there needs to be change first. I hope that this new truce will bring that about with the help of international observers and the PA (and maybe even Egypt, that would be something).

We'll see.

[brabon1]

nice rhetoric....too bad its not the truth

[mbrown0315]

To which rhetoric are you referring?

[brabon1]

one of the guys who was responding to your vid with the same..."open air prison" lines

ive got them all memorized

israel is an apartheid state...thank you jimmy carter

the gaza operation was the new holocaust....ya, forget what is going on in darfur and the congo

and so on

[americanmuslimgirl]

Darfur and the Congo are serious situations worthy of attention. How does that deflect Israel's responsibility for murdering hundreds to thousands of people every year and maintaining a siege on one of the most densely populated areas on earth? You are very violent and angry. With people like you around, it's no wonder there is no peace brabon1.

[yessua9ibnallah]

Gaza and the West Bank need to be resolved, a cease fire wont do it. It takes a lot more than that. It takes responsability from muslims countries to cease the: destroy Israel state phylosophy, and think about the people in Gaza and the West Bank. How can you have a Palestine state? Should be the questions muslims states answer. That is primarily Muslims states responsability. Israel has a right to exist, it already does. And Palestine needs to exist in a peaceful manner too.

[yessua9ibnallah]

A simple solution starts with all Arab-muslim countries recognicing the state of Israel, then, either asking for the West Bank or Gaza to became the Palestine state, one of then not both. The If Gaza is chosen to be the palestine state, give control of the West Bank to Jordan. If the opposite give the control of Gaza to Egypt. either way is in the hands of the muslims states, primarily, not Israel.

[MuslimPrincess4ever]

Actually the war on Gaza was planned before ceasefire. So that's where it began. A zionist Isreali member admited it and got busted on Aljazeera.

ISREALIS ACTUALLY ADMITTED THEY WERE PLANNING ON BOMBING GAZA *CAREFULLY*,WITH ALL THIER ADVANCED

EQUIPMENT.

THAT MENT THEY WERE PLANNING THE HOLOCAUST ON GAZA AND MURDERING 100'S OF BABYS. KILLING 1000'S OF PEOPLE.

Peace

[mbrown0315]

The fact that the Israeli military had gathered intelligence on Gaza and had planned out the operation does not mean that they were planning on going ahead with it. That's the role of intelligence-gathering... You don't do it in the assumption that the operation will definitely happen. It's a strange case to make that Israel would have gone into Gaza even if Hamas had agreed to cease firing rockets.

Thousands of people... Gazan Holocaust... Pure, unabashed exaggeration. Not worth a response.

[mbrown0315]

Furthermore... I wasn't talking about Operation Cast Lead in this video. I was talking about a pinpoint raid conducted in November of 2008.

Next time watch my video and actually process it.

[koya25555]

typical Zionist response, you don't learn anything new but nonsense and lies.

[dogblessamerica]

1) Popular support for Hamas would never have been what it is now if Israel had kept to its obligations and restored itself to the land originally allocated to it when they started this ill-fated venture. This latest offensive by Israel will no doubt have seen support for Hamas 'skyrocket' if you excuse the tasteless pun.

The following excerpt from a piece by an Israeli journalist puts it better than I can:

[dogblessamerica]

2) The Hamas movement won the majority of the votes in the eminently democratic elections that took place in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip. It won because the Palestinians had come to the conclusion that Fatah's peaceful approach had gained precisely nothing from Israel neither a freeze of the settlements, nor release of the prisoners, nor any significant steps toward ending the occupation and creating the Palestinian state.

[mbrown0315]

Palestinians coming to that conclusion is irrelevant. Even if it's true (and I think it's not), it doesn't mean that now Israel should be expected to negotiate with an entity that calls for its destruction. I don't care if Hamas was elected to power in an eminently democratic election. Hitler was brought to power in a democratic election, as well. Again, being voted to power doesn't mean other countries need to recognize you. It just means you're accountable to your citizens.

[pishmarg]

mbrown

i think cesefire was only limited to gaza, israel has said it dosenot extend to WB it was the deal, you said islamic jihad guy was killed in WB, there is no cesefire in WB, any rocket fire from gaza was violation. and should have been retalited it was failer of barak and livni that brought us to this situaltion.

[dogblessamerica]

3) Hamas is deeply rooted in the population ... but also as a political and religious body that provides social, educational and medical services.

From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not hide behind the population, the population views them as their only defenders.

[mbrown0315]

Yes, they do hide behind the population. That's a proven, demonstrated fact. If you would like video, I will supply. It's absurd to suggest that Hamas does not hide behind civilians and civilian structures.

That said, it would be suicidal of them to place all of their weapons and personnel in open fields outside of civilian areas. They see the advantage and exploit it ingeniously. You shouldn't be in the guerilla warfare business if you can't grasp that opportunity.

[dogblessamerica]

4) Therefore, the whole operation is based on erroneous assumptions. Turning life into living hell does not cause the population to rise up against Hamas, but on the contrary, it unites behind Hamas and reinforces its determination not to surrender. The population of Leningrad did not rise up against Stalin, any more than the Londoners rose up against Churchill.

-Uri Avnery, Israeli Journalist and Writer

[mbrown0315]

1) Israel has no obligation to withdraw completely until there is a cessation of violence. This should have happened after the Israeli settlers left. Palestinians are already expressing (reserved) anger towards Hamas for dragging them into this war.

[mbrown0315]

I already addressed the issue of Palestinians rallying to support Hamas. A sizeable portion probably will, but that doesn't matter. Hamas has been forced into a position in which terms can be dictated to them. They'll stay in power, but the ceasefire will most likely entail third parties guarding crossings and watching out for smuggling activity. The Palestinian Authority will probably assume some of these responsibilities. International observers will hopefully also be involved. That's good.

[dogblessamerica]

'Weapon smuggling through tunnels.'

If obtaining weapons was a breach of the ceasefire, presumably Israel wasn't allowed to access any weapons or consolidate its military during the ceasefire either? Double standards.

What is finally dawning on the world is that we have been watching the slow throttling and crushing of the Palestinian people, to the point where they rise up and give Israel the excuse to move in and exterminate them.

[mbrown0315]

Israel did not sign a ceasefire with Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, or other belligerent entities in the West Bank, so it would be unreasonable to ask Israel to suspend its military activities...simply not in Gaza. Hamas, on the other hand, has been procuring weaponry with the single goal of attacking Israel. Therefore, it is reasonable to ask them to suspend weapons smuggling.

[dogblessamerica]

Why are Hamas and the other rag tag Palestinian militias fighting in the first place? Was it ever reasonable to expect a ceasefire to hold, given the situation on the ground in Gaza and the West Bank? Are they no allowed to resist occupation?

[mbrown0315]

The situation in Gaza could have been rectified had Hamas not been voted into power. Israel withdrew its settlers, effectively forfeiting much of its interest in that territory. Israel was happy enough to leave Gaza to become Dubai. That's why it's a damn shame that a slight majority voted in a party that is openly determined to destroy Israel. They can resist occupation all they want, as long as they accept the consequences. It would have been smarter to stop resisting, and start cooperating.

[mbrown0315]

Again, what should have happened after Israel withdrew its settlers from Gaza: Palestinians elect moderate leadership (at least more moderate than Hamas) and make serious efforts at curtailing attacks. As Gaza becomes less of a threat, Israel has less of a need to expend military resources on restricting border crossings.

Voting Hamas into power was simply the wrong thing to do.

[dogblessamerica]

Withdrawing the settlements was simply complying with international law. The occupation continued.

I would have loved to have seen moderate Palestinian leadership. However the Palestinians have seen moderate leadership in the past. It was been seen as a failure becuase Israel just continued making life worse, with further their settlements in the West Bank, further house demolitions, tighter control, more intimidation. Military action is only one of the tricks up Israel's sleeve.

[mbrown0315]

It's a strange proposition that groups like Hamas would stop their attacks if Israel were to end its occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, especially since Hamas has made it clear that Israel will get no recognition...nothing more than a long-term ceasefire, which (as I explain in several of my videos) is not enough. Under the terms of Resolution 242, Israel is not obliged to withdraw completely from that territory until there's full recognition and an end to belligerency.

[alidaman1]

All this ceasefire talking.....

All Zionists get out of Palestine. Pack up and use your dual citizenship to go back were you came from in Europe/Russia.

Leave Palestine to the Native Palestinian Jews, Muslims and Christians.

Free Palestine!

[mrfarraj1]

the tunnels are in the egyptian borders so they are not used for kidnaping israeli soldiers as you claim.. they were used to bring food, fuel, medicine..etc under the israeli blockade.

[mbrown0315]

The tunnel destroyed in the November raid was on the border with Israel.

[pandorachild]

I wonder how they get suplies to make rockets..............

[portsanity]

I think where clevonamerica really makes his point is when he talks about people not caring.

And this is dangerous not just for muslims but for jews as well,after all what would would happen if the west changed sides,it has happened before.

[mbrown0315]

I don't see how people are not caring. A recent CNN poll showed that the majority of CNN viewers are in support of the Palestinians (I know because I voted on it). As for the government, consider the possibility that the government has my view on things and knows that it's not as simple as one side officially breaking the ceasefire with one big event.

[portsanity]

Hi mr brown .I dont consider making a vote on cnn as an example of caring,this is only expressing an opinion.Also if your goverment is anything like the goverments in the rest of the world then they dont have your view on things you have theirs either that or you are ignored.

[frickinme]

Very well articulated and presented. While I admire your bravado I don't envy your position. Attempting to educate a population with no attention span on a massively complex situation can be frustrating at best, infuriating at worst.

Keep fighting the good fight. And don't let the bastards get you down.

[Hijabiya]

My first impulse was to disprove your narrative by reports from none other but Haaretz. But then it all seemed meaningless after one realizes that it would be useless to try to debate with someone who is actively justifying the massacre of more then 800 fellow human, 45% of those children and women because (even under their own assumptions) some Hamas militants broke the cease fire.

Isreal is drunk with absolute power, Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely

[Hijabiya]

You would think that by now Israel would have figured it out that by killing every Gazan it is creating 25 new fighters besides isolating itself even more in world opinion as a pariah. Even Americans (the traditional staunchest and blindest supporters of Israel) are now split 50-50 according the latest polls.

[Hijabiya]

The timing of this attack on Gaza is very obviously pointing to the upcoming elections in Israel after the fact that Kadima has been tainted by the less-than-perfect 2006 war with Hezbollah. Your trying to close your eyes to that glaring reality and burying your head in the sand by justify this by blaming it on Hamas rockets (which have killed 100 times less Isrealis then the drunk driving in Tel Aviv alone) is really hear rendering to the rest of us.

[mbrown0315]

I never make a claim in this video regarding who was the first to break the ceasefire, and I have no investment in believing Hamas was the first to break it. I think the ceasefire was pointless from the beginning. Neither side was going to uphold it to the liking of the other.

If you wish to point out the flaws in my narrative, please go ahead and do so simply in the interest of pointing out my error in research. You're right though, that's about as meaningful as your correction will get.

[mbrown0315]

Please take care to pay attention to what I say in this video. My intention is not to reveal that it was Hamas rockets that broke the ceasefire (indeed, I even take care to emphasize that it was Islamic Jihad or Aksa Brigade rockets and NOT Hamas rockets). I don't even think those necessarily broke the ceasefire (as Islamic Jihad did not have a ceasefire with Israel). My intention was only to highlight the gray area in this whole issue. It wasn't just one event, as people seem to think.

[Hijabiya]

Isreal will need to find another truly great and visionary leader like Yitzhak Rabin if it ever hopes to enjoy peace. He wrote his own epitaph when he told a crowd of 100,000 at a peace rally in Tel Aviv I have always believed that the majority of the people want peace, and are ready to take a risk for it minutes before being martyred by a right-wing Jew with a revolver. Benjamin netenyahou, the very instigator of hatred against Rabin now seems to be in control of destiny of Israel.

[mbrown0315]

That might be so, and in the spirit of such criticism, I suppose you're ready to condemn Hamas and declare that not only it should not be the ruling power in Gaza, but that it's a tragedy it was ever elected (by a slim margin) in the first place.

[Hijabiya]

I can not impose on Palestinians who they elect as their leader just as I can not impose on Israelis if they elect Netanyahu.

But Hamass popularity had most definitely declined since elections and a few months ago were sure to loose the next election. But now Livni and Barack may have just guaranteed a Hamas victory in the next Palestinian election. One wonders, Are they doing what is best for Israel or what is best for their own power! Let the Israelis judge for themselves.

[mbrown0315]

I wasn't asking you to impose anything. I was asking for your opinion. Was it wrong or not for Hamas to be voted in? Should Hamas be the representative body of Palestinians or not?

You can't impose Netanyahu, but you can condemn him (as you've shown). You can do the same with the Palestinian side.

Any thoughts?

[Hijabiya]

Condemn is a strong word, I did not use the word condemn against Netanyahu

All I can say that I personally would not vote for either Netanyahu or Hamas

But it is easy to see why any people like Palestinians under siege from all sides and perpetually facing humiliation would have decided to give Hamas a chance when at the time the corruption in Fatah and PA had reached such levels and Hamas ran their campaign purely on the promise of anticorruption and their proven record of social programs

[mbrown0315]

Polls also indicated that quite a few Palestinians voted for Hamas because they thought it was armed struggle that got Israeli settlements out of Gaza. Whether that's true or not is besides the point that a party calling for Israel's destruction should have never been an option. And if it had to be an option, then it should have been made clear that it would not be recognized by Israel. Israel is under no obligation to recognize a party that calls for its replacement by Islamic theocracy.

[Hijabiya]

I am not a Hamas supporter, but I try to be fair and truthful.

In their outwardly declared platform (available on net) they are neither seeking Israel's destruction nor Islamic theocracy. I do not know If they have different hidden agenda

after winning the elections their tone became a whole lot more conciliatory then when they were an opposition party.

Again in the words of Yitzhak Rabin:

I have always believed that the majority of the people want peace, and are ready to take a risk for it

[Hijabiya]

In all fairness it is Israel that has openly declared total destruction of Hamas as its stated objective for the invasion. Israeli killing of cheap Palestinian lives (100 Palestinians for Israeli) even at the slightest suspicion of presence of a single Hamas militant in the vicinity makes the rest of the world see Israel as the terrorist State. Israeli justification that both US and UK did the same in Iraq and Afghanistan only ties them to the same mass genocides

[mbrown0315]

You've set up a false comparison. First of all, Hamas began with the goal of destroying Israel. Second of all, there's a categorical difference between wanting to destroy a UN member state and wanting to destroy a party. If Israel had in its constitution that it would never recognize a Palestinian state, then your comparison might hold. Your comments on body count are also misleading (not because the numbers are untrue, but because of what you try to imply), and I can comment on that next.

[Hijabiya]

As I said let us be fair, You know very well, Hamas is more then just a party...it is the democratically elected government in an internationally monitored free and fair election...If US and Israel does not like the results then they can not just go around changing regimes against the will of the people who elected them

[mbrown0315]

No, but they can refuse to negotiate with that party.

[Hijabiya]

You know very well that even the number of Jews who believe that Israel will have to negotiate with Hamas is now steadily growing.

The biggest enemy of Jews is none other then Zionism.

Jews and Arabs have lived together for thousands of years. Throughout the history Muslims have always Protected Jews from the wrath of Christians.

It was Muslims who brought the Jews back to Jerusalem in the 7th century after they had been exiled by Christians for a few centuries.

[mbrown0315]

Okay, I've heard this a lot. Certainly, Jews living in Islamic countries usually dealt with less persecution than Jews living in Christian countries. To suggest that Jews and Arabs have always lived together as friends, however, is a fallacy that should be addressed more often. If you would like me to give you a long list of Islamic decrees against Jews (synagogue burning, ghettoization of Jewish communities, and exercise of some of the more brutal aspects of the dhimmi laws), just let me know.

[Hijabiya]

Please provide that long list of Islamic decrees against Jews (synagogue burning, ghettoization of Jewish communities, and exercise of some of the more brutal aspects of the dhimmi laws). I will be more then happy to prove to you from Quarn and Hadeeth (two Islamic Scared texts) as to what propagandistic rubbish they are.

In fairness, no one can say that there has never been a single unfortunate incident between the two caused by fools on both sides.

[mbrown0315]

How are you going to disprove from the Qu'ran an event that took place after the Qu'ran was compiled?

1066: Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

You can also take a look at the massacre in 1465 of thousands of Jews living in Fez, Morocco.

[Hijabiya]

Exactly my point; riot was incited by Muslim preachers, obviously some zealot fools who violated the very foundations of teachings of Quran

[mbrown0315]

This is a separate point. I don't think that religion is always some pure and peaceful doctrine that humans fail to grasp by infusing violence. I'm a secularist. I think religions are human constructions (also their holy books). Regardless, if you want to leave Islam alone and just talk about Muslims, fine. There will continue to be "zealots," and there will have continued to be zealots even if Zionism had never come about. I don't appreciate the fallacy that Muslims were always kind to Jews.

[Hijabiya]

I do not know why you continue misquoting me when I have for the umpteenth time stated that no one can say that there has never been a single unfortunate incident between the two caused by fools on both sides.

Nonetheless, God willing, I will research your references and respond at my earliest; after all I am Lawyer (LOL)

[Hijabiya]

BUTI will categorically state that Muslims have been a lot kinder and protective of Jews then the Zionists have ever been of Arabs.

The main difference here is that Muslims, Jews and Christians are always eager to condemn any misguided actions of their coreligionists whereas a Zionist is never willing to condemn any misguided actions of Isreal or Zionists

[mbrown0315]

"Jews and Arabs have lived together for thousands of years. Throughout the history Muslims have always Protected Jews from the wrath of Christians." -You

This falls into the argument I often hear that Muslims and Jews coexisted peacefully for thousands of years. You were clearly implying that, and that is the assumption I wanted to do away with. You asked for the decrees and massacres (and the sources). There, you have it.

[mbrown0315]

If you want to now shrink away to "well, you can't say it was ALWAYS peaceful" and "yeah, but the Zionists are worse" (which is a false comparison), then we need to get into another discussion (though I prefer doing it in YouTube e-mail, where it's a lot less sloppy and where I don't character limits).

Thanks.

[Hijabiya]

I am not shrinking away from anything, you keep misquoting me.

I am more willing to condemn any killings of any non-combatant Jews (or non-Jews).

Are you willing to condemn the killings of non-combatant Palestinians?

[mbrown0315]

Please e-mail me from now on. I'm tired of flooding this forum.

I wasn't misquoting you. I didn't put quotes around "uninterrupted benevolence." That was hyperbole meant to illustrate a point. As a lawyer, you should understand the functions of rhetoric.

Yes, I am willing to condemn intentional killing of Palestinian civilians. That is absolutely wrong.

Again, please send me e-mails from now on.

[mbrown0315]

By the way, a source that really hones in on the issue is "The Legacy of Islamic Anti-Semitism" by Andrew Bostom. I watched a lecture by him, and I thought he made some interesting points. The title is obviously a bit sensational, but you might want to look into that book, as well.

Enjoy.

[mbrown0315]

There were other massacres in Morocco under Idris I in the 8th century, and more in the 18th century. The Almohads forcibly converted or decimated several communities in the 12th century. Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Libyan Jews in 1785. Jews were massacred in Algiers in 1805, 1815, and 1830.

[mbrown0315]

Decrees for synagogue destruction... Egypt and Syria in 1014, 1293, 1301. In Iraq in 1344. Yemen in 1676. Jews were forced to convert or face death in Yemen in 1165 and 1678. Also in Morocco in 1275, 1465, and 1790. Also in Baghdad in 1333 and 1344.

[mbrown0315]

Theres your sampleand dont even get me started on the late 19th-20th century.

[Hijabiya]

Please do ... by all means

[mbrown0315]

Again...not as bad as the Christian countries...but by no means a long record of uninterrupted benevolence.

[Hijabiya]

You loose credibility by just throwing years and names of countries on the screen without giving solid references (history books, etc) that can be independently verified by any one this blog! Otherwise it resembles baseless Zionist propaganda

The reality is that even today there are many Jews living in those countries that refuse to migrate to Israel and many beautiful ancient synagogues still standing tall. Why there is no retaliation against them even after Israels genocide of Palestinians

[mbrown0315]

I didn't mean that it was all because of the Qu'ran (though much of it was because of theology). Even if you try to argue that the theology was misused, that's beside the point. Even if that's the case, you can't argue that the theology wouldn't have been "misused" again even if modern Zionism had never been born. Either way, your main point about the Jews and Muslims living together as friends falls apart. I'll now provide sources.

[mbrown0315]

The Dhimmi by Bat Ye'or

[mbrown0315]

The Jews of Arab Lands by Norman Stillman. The Case of the Jews from Arab Countries: A Neglected Issue by Maurice Roumani. The Jews of Islam by Bernard Lewis. Jewish Communities in Exotic Places by Ken Blady.

[mbrown0315]

Also check out the documentary "The Forgotten Refugees." Also, go to the web site for JIMENA (Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa).

[Hijabiya]

I never said that it has been a long record of uninterrupted benevolence. no one can say that there has never been a single unfortunate incident between the two caused by fools on both sides.

There has been a very long history of persecution of Muslims at the hands of other Muslims, Christians at the hands of other Christians.

But your assertion that this behavior is somehow to be blamed on the Quran or Hadeeth is totally baseless.

[mbrown0315]

And these decrees didn't all happen after the advent of Zionism...this goes back. The Qu'ran itself has plenty of very anti-Jewish passages. We're not just the "people of the book" in the Qu'ran. It reserves some very virulent comments for us.

[Hijabiya]

In fairness, no one can say that there has never been a single unfortunate incident between the two caused by fools on both sides.

Please quote those very anti-Jewish passages from Qu'ran. That would really be educational for me since I have only been reading it for 25 years.

Fairness and truth is what Quran enjoins!!!

[mbrown0315]

Now this doesn't mean that the Torah doesn't have virulent passages, but it goes to show you that the theological foundation for hatred of Jews is there. Arab-Jewish peace and friendliness destroyed by Zionism is a fallacy.

[Hijabiya]

Zionists may not see Zionism as the main reason of destruction of peace and friendliness between Jews and Arabs, but many Arabs and now a growing number of Jews do.

Zionism does not befit the children of, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph (peace and blessings upon them all)

[mbrown0315]

From Hamas charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. May the cowards never sleep."

"Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet." (I disagree with this, but it implies the governing of Jews in that area under Islamic theocracy).

[Hijabiya]

Please let me where you got these quotes to allow me to independently verify.

Even the Hamas covenant written 25 years ago (which ironically, was created by Israel itself to counter Arafats PLO) has gradually been abandoned by Hamas as it grew more mainstream and especially since they won elections. Hamas has made many public statements of their readiness to recognize Israels right to exist if Israel does the same an d ends the brutal occupation and suffocation of Palestinians

[pandorachild]

The Hamas charter (or covenant) calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel.

behind every stone..............

[mbrown0315]

Okay, I just don't know who you were calling an asshole...Just confused, never mind.

[mbrown0315]

The charter also blames the Jews for the Communist and French Revolutions and claim that Jews have set up destructive spying organizations all over the world (classic anti-Jewish sentiment). They also cite sacred Islamic text about how the messianic time will not come until Muslims kill the Jews. If that's not enough, they also openly declare that they will not recognize Israel in speeches and interviews. The most they have ever offered is a long-term ceasefire....not enough, obviously.

[chartrick]

exactly mr brown. the terrorism and hate shown towards jews way before israel was a state is well documented and well known. this isnt a new thing. Islam is not a religion, it is a cult determined to rule the world. it must be stopped or we're all destined to bow to allah, or die.

[Hijabiya]

So kill them all...Right??? This is real lives, not a video game...

[Hijabiya]

We have to be fair and truthfull.

You know very well Hamas are not alone in subscribing to these nonsensical Jewish Conspiracy Theories, Is Israel going to kill all of them?

All sacred Islamic texts are available online...web search is easy and fast...

[mbrown0315]

Hijabiya...I'm finding our conversation unfocused. If you want, put together a video statement or send me a message (YouTube e-mail) with all of your thoughts. It'll be more productive to have a dialogue that way.

[Hijabiya]

I agree with you...this seems like a beginning of a long friendship based on mutual respect.

God bless and protect you and your family!

[pandorachild]

pls keep this debate going on here, i think alot of ppl will benifit from this.

[mbrown0315]

And I don't care if the majority of people want peace. If the militant 5% are still carrying out attacks, then the peaceful majority will have to pay for it until they become unpeaceful and get rid of that 5%.

[Hijabiya]

Peaceful majority will have to pay for it!!! I can not believe you actually meant it.

So are you saying that you support Israel in bombing and killing kill those 95% to pay for the 5%? How is that not terrorism? How is that different from 9/11? How is that different from Al-Qaida and Osama?

[Hijabiya]

If this is the Israeli attitude in solving this conflict then they have no one to fear but themselves. Israel will not be destroyed by outsiders, but it will become morally and ethically hollow and implode upon itself. No Arab has to do anything

[pandorachild]

wow, well said.

[Hijabiya]

To mbrown0315:

Actulay my comment was to support your video againt comment from Savage2660 and others

I support your video!

[mbrown0315]

Oh okay. Sorry, misunderstanding.

[mbrown0315]

I'm confused. Which asshole is referencing Hitler?

[Reddog2534]

You talk to much about nothing.

There could be respect to a ceasefire if Hamas, Hezbalah, Irag, Iran and any other Muslim country didn't say over and over again Death to Israel. How can anybody trust Islam, if there are peace loving Muslims please stand up!

[chartrick]

Absolutely Hamas was plotting. Islam in general is always plotting for world domination. That's the whole point of their fake religion.

[Savage2660]

June 19, 2008 Cease fire begins.

June 23, 2008 gaze fired mortar shell

June 24, 2008 Three rockets fired from Gaza

June 27, 2008 two mortars fired from Gaza

June 28, 2008 Israel blocks all shipments into Gaza except fuel, in response to the rocket and mortar attacks.

The list goes on and on and on. Who broke the Cease Fire?

[mbrown0315]

It doesn't matter who broke the ceasefire. Neither side was going to uphold it anyway.

[cowwoc2001]

More to the point: Hamas launched over a thousand rockets into Israel and it never went into Gaza. Hamas has only itself to blame. Furthermore, the ceasefire stipulated that Hamas may not smuggle weapons into Gaza, which they did.

[mowglee09]

"Hamas may not smuggle weapons into Gaza, which they did". What naked hypocrisy...I respect mbrown0315's admission that neither side was going to uphold the ceasefire anyway. Taking that as a given, the ceasefire was a stalling tactic - the convenient option for both parties at the time. You'd never expect Israel to accept such a disparity in arms were the roles reversed. With an impending conflict of course you'd seek to muster some resistance. Afterall, who has the tanks and bombers?