Martial arts Myths: futher explaination on Shaolin and Kung Fu's classification quirks.

[kurlii]

What do you mean Xing-Yi "the so-called" internal martial art? I don't get it. In my time studying the style I never encountered any "hard" aspect. All the energy, force, and power was generated internally. My Sifu demonstrated massive power devoid of any physical strength technic. His sticky hands technic would adhere to you like a magnet. Pls validate your statement.

[Swordsage]

@kurlii I suggest you read Adam's Hsu's works on the subject, but to sum up, any expert in martial arts will tell you that "internal" and "external" are more levels of achievement and understanding, or a different way to approach developing. An "external" student starts out hard, but then "softens" up as time goes on, and the opposite can be said for "internal" fighters. Plus, believe it or not, the terms "internal" and "external" didn't exist back in the old days. Go research for yourself.

[Swordsage]

Oh, and if you honestly think there is no physical ability used at all in any internal style, then why is it so important to move and stand in a certain way? It shouldn't matter what stance you're in, or how your spine is aligned, if no physical technique was needed. I don't doubt your teacher's ability at all, but I'm willing to bet much of it is based on his sensitivity to your movement, ie, his "listening" skill, as well as constant practice: repetition of something makes it more effortless.

[WeiTuoMaster]

Your explaination is not bad, but you generalized too much and missed a lot of the points that the stories try to teach. But not a bad job. Read Joseph Cambell, he really understands myth as a tool for teaching and why people use them.

Oh, and qi (chi) is real: it can equate to the power of the mind and the kinetic energy that flows through in a movement. However there is a lot more to it.

[WeiTuoMaster]

Your explaination is not bad, but you generalized too much and missed a lot of the points that the stories try to teach. But not a bad job. Read Joseph Cambell, he really understands myth as a tool for teaching and why people use them.

[hunggarguy]

the book on 10:19 I think is where you are getting most of your theory and I own the book. Its all a butch of lies, the shaolin art has been preserved in the secret societies that came from the rebels after the temple was burned in the south.

[Swordsage]

@hunggarguy actually I got a lot of information from Adam Hsu's Proffesor Ma Minggda, and Professor Kang Ge Wu works on the subject, as well as this book, and unlike your PM that you just sent me, they're all backed up by actual historical research, and myths about secret societies and so called "north and south" Shaolin temples. There was never more than one temple with that name. I'll correct more of your mistakes in a response PM.

[TheShaolinScholar]

because shaolin waz destroyed by bak mei students an wudang has allways been intertwined in the Chinese govermen't an shaolin allways rebelled with the muslims an the an the temple waz destroyed an masters fled into hidding, taught secretly but some time passed they couldn't teach an Buddhists waaay back after the death of buddah they rebelled back then in india so thats where th wudang vs shaolin comes from an the goverment will allways know which styles are wudang

[Urfriendlypixolinha]

Great explanation of kung fu history and classification. By the way: I love the books you recommend here. Five stars!

[elgostine]

random note whatwas the idea with the fox, not bed, those pictures are cute, im actually wondering how to quickly get them too , what did you type in google. or did you just trawl through reams of cpictures to find it

[Blndrfist]

How about just showing us a chinese martial art that actually works in combat and the techniques of which, derived from their absurd "forms", can be easily discerned in such a fight? Otherwise, it's really just silly to worry about "classification" because, so far, they are pretty much all worthless excepting chinese wrestling.

[bobocaco]

I really like this video. So much of CMA is shrouded in myth, and fiction which has been accepted as fact over the years. If you actually look at the facts, it is more interesting than any fiction. As a practioner of Tai Chi, it's interesting how my Sifu has me doing much more basic stance and movement exercises as he keeps telling me I lack power (muscular conditioning) which is essential to back up the smooth motions.

[Swordsage]

I like that your teacher is having you focus on basic stances and movement exercises. It's the hard training of the basics that help to produce a great martial artist, not the collection of fanciful forms. Victory will always go to the guy who keeps practicing his basics thousands of times over... that, and good old body conditioning. As a sword guy, I can personally tell you that push ups are among a martial artist's best friends. :b

[WarriorBoy]

Swordsage, you have it down completely, my thanks for making a channel like this.

You're absolutely correct that becoming a form memorizing machine will not help you when it comes to the real thing.

And props about good old conditioning. There are too many martial artists that claim "strength is not needed" as an excuse for their fat bellies. Internal is no different, it's all more efficent with a healthier body.

[elgostine]

@Swordsage im wondering the monks cudgel and monk spade then.. (the cudgel is the stick with the metal bands arragged around the staves head, (from the top it looks like a plus sign),

[Swordsage]

@elgostine Actually, if you look at the names of these, that sort of answers your question for you. A spade is a farming tool. The "cudgel" is a religious symbol, called a monk staff (xīzhàng, meaning "tin stick) where the rings around it represent either the 4 truths, the 6 perfections, or the twelvefold path of cause and effect, with the rings corresponding with the numbers. They weren't meant as weapons originally, and there were outside groups that developed techniques with it...

[Swordsage]

... that were absorbed into Shaolin later, particularly with the spade. THis is not to say that Shaolin couldn't have worked out some of their own skills with them, particularly with the monk staff, but considering their vows, they wouldn't use them as killing weapons, hence the monk staff not being bladed. As far as the spade, you'll find that being used by other styles outside of Shaolin.

[elgostine]

@Swordsage i guess.. just a wondering.. what is the style most call 'northern shaolin' its showcased in avatar: the last airbender by the fire nation (the avatar having no relation to the movie with lots of blue people.) good example of firebending here watch?v=Znd_xp-8dHA&feature=re­lated

airbending=bagua supposedly, water= taichi and earth= southern mantis and hung gar.

[Swordsage]

@elgostine Northern Shaolin tends to be a general term used for a collection of Long Fist styles. For instance, Dr Yang Jwing Ming teaches what he calls "Northern Shaolin", and if you take a look at it, it's a collection of forms and skills from various northern long fist styles, such as Cha, Tang Lang (praying mantis), and Hong styles.

When you keep in mind that for some reason they categorize anything that isn't "internal" as "shaolin", then it's easy to see why they call it Northern Shaolin.

[elgostine]

@Swordsage i thought it might be i thing piquan the one you said was 'explosive' because the firebending in particular, being described as firey and explosive etc, fit that notable quality of piquan (i think its piquan)

admittedly i dont know the chinese styles too well. my realm of interest, first and foremost is based around japan, i.e karate and aikido, and to a lesser extent european,

[elgostine]

@Swordsage when it somes to chinese martial arts, i take interest in the less 'acrobatic' styles, so, wing chun MAINLY also because of its street potential. and my MAIN interest in china is its sword and weapon techniques, not its empty hand, though i realise im missibng something trying weapons and not knowing the empty hand first.

[elgostine]

@Swordsage this interest in weapons first is also consistant throughout most of my martial interests, including karate, i.e i take more time to practice weapons, than my forms empty hand for exxample.

that and me offhandedly 'practice playing'' with a cheapish jian that was 35$ but functiuons for practice purposes, pretty damn well. its well balanced, barely two inches from the start of the handle, and quite light and fun to handle,

[Swordsage]

@elgostine Heh, I like weapons myself, particularly swords, but then again I think you've already figured that out. :P

I notice you have an interest in the less "acrobatic" styles; same here. Not many people know however that Chinese Martial Arts have a lot of non flashy styles. I think if you look up styles like Baji, Xing Yi, or even Pigua, you might like what you see. There's several demonstrations on YouTube.

Oh, on that jian you have; I'm not sure that's a good balance point on the blade.

[elgostine]

@Swordsage i know bagua and taichi arnt 'acrobatic styles' and then thered be the 'boxing' styles like mantis boxing etc.

my jian bears close resemblance to CAShanweis SH2421 -- King of Kinnaras Shaolin Sword it has a similar style of openwork in the pommel

its (to get an idea) 700g overall, the handle is 400 the blade and tang 300 (tang is a small bolt welded to the blade that screws via a nut to the base of the handle,

[elgostine]

(cont) its pretty sturdy if you tighten it enough, the blade has a 3 inch 'ricasso' of sorts that hs a small notch that facilitates the scabbards locking mechanism,

the point of balance is precisely at the junction between the blade proper and the ricasso when the handles on,

whats a good point of balance? the balade and ricasso together is about 29 inches.

[Swordsage]

@elgostine Of course, this is not to say that people can't balance it the way they want. But generally, antique and well made modern jian all have that balance point in the range I stated (some I've seen at 6 inches). It tends to make for a rather lively sword that can maneuver pretty well in any direction easily, and it makes the sword feel lighter than it is. There's enough weight in the blade for cuts (provided that the sword is around 2 lbs or so), and enough in the handle for movement.

[elgostine]

@Swordsage ive also finally figures out the steel composition, stainless stell, it washard to figure it out, because when i threw it straight into the ground, and it band and flexed back and forth a few times, and whn hlt lightly, and your flick the blade it rings.. so i was thhinking and hoping it was maybe carbon steel, the rust test disproved it. my spring steel wush dao started showing salt rust in an hour, this sword was unscathed.

[elgostine]

@elgostine i also realised in ather flex test by sticking the first quarter ofthe blade in the groundso it dosnt rip itself out when flexed, i realised that, its flexy (a seemingly uncharacteristic trait for stainless steel, but, on one test where i throw it into the ground where it flexed back andforth almost like a pendulum, i realised its got limits and the blade is slowly deforming and bending.

[elgostine]

@Swordsage

what woudl you consider to be agood balance point, i would imagine that the jian aside form possibly the han period ones, which sem more of a chopper than the later jian likethoseseen in the ming and qing and yuan dynasties it wuld seem to me that a point of balance close to the handle making it very light and wieldy similar to a 17th century rapier

[Swordsage]

@elgostine A good point of balance for well made jian tend to be between 4 and 5 inches away from where the blade meets the hand guard. I know some people like it closer to the handguard, but the fact is that if you balance it like that, the weight ratio messes with the jian's ability to cut. The jian is designed to be a a cut and thrust sword, not just a thrust sword like a rapier. A lot of people seem to think it's the latter, but that's not how it was used historically.

[elgostine]

@Swordsage fair point, i added a bit of lead weight to the pommel, admittedly it didnt do much, but i may remove it on that advice.

also, how does one tell if a blades stainless steel short of leaving it in a a bucket of seawater for a few hours. mine appears to flex and springpretty well, bt i noticedits slowly deforming, would that be a clue? or coul this be an example of just poor tempering

[Tianshanwarrior]

wudang's conexion comes from Epitaph of Wang Zhengnan as is the conexion to Zhang Sanfeng. The link among taiji, xingyi and bagua comes from the Neijia quan association in 1894. And Shaolin monks staffs were made of iron, which makes tem a killing weapon. Wu Shu (16111695) the martial expert talks about Shaolin monks use of the spear

[danseinfernale6014]

it's like the Korean martial arts. any Korean martial artist may disagree, but the three main styles of Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do and Hap Ki Do are actually the same martial art. they just come from different periods and teachers so they classified them as different styles when they are in fact 100% the same.

[martialartist906]

there are differences.

[danseinfernale6014]

Haha, I now see my mistake. I was foolish and did not word that correctly. I apologize. Yes, there are differences in style and execution but they can all be traced back to the same root techniques. Example: Tae Kwon Do has grapples but is not nearly as emphasized or developed as Hap Ki Do's. There is a difference yes, but the techniques are essentially the same is what I meant. I hope that the words I used are correct and you understand what I am saying.

[martialartist906]

oh, yes i agree completely, sorry for my understanding. and to believe people will actually deny this fact.

[kungfufanatic]

In fact, some of the stories of certain styles like the origin of Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Northern Mantis and Tai Chi Chuan are being debated, are them facts or legends? Some of the versions of the origins of Praying Mantis and Tai Chi are similar. Correct me if I'm wrong about these legends.

[kungfufanatic]

Very interesting and informative. It's not the first time that I've heard of this. A lot of the stories of the supposed origins of certain styles are being debated, for example, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Northern Mantis and Tai Chi chuan; in fact, there are versions of the origins of praying mantis and tai chi that are similar. If I'm wrong about these legends, correct me.

[Teyobi]

I have to agree with you sage. I'm in Chuan Fa (Kempo), and from my understanding it did originally come from a Shaolin temple in the north, and then spread out every were else, because of that we got weapons. This is just my understanding.

P.S. This is Makadona from SBG. I may be holding my jian on Saturday, and seeing yours

[Swordsage]

Hey man, great to see you here! And nice of you to add your own understanding to this topic. :)

You have to let me know how your sword is, and if you can tell me anything about mine as well, I'd appreciate it. PM me if you want.

[Teyobi]

Well Garrett is hopefully coming to my kwoons tournament, peddling his wares. I'll ask him to bring his video camera so he can post some videos showing his weapons in better detail.

[Swordsage]

Fantastic; I hope he does. He's been needing to put up more videos anyway.

[artoffence]

This is a delicate topic because so many people have time, effort, and most importantly money invested in it.  Not the least of these is the Chinese government. Brian Kennedy's book really seems to be the heart of this whole video. I was very pleased to see the cover there at the end.

[TodeSakagawa]

he had to go the the Sholin Temple. There he taught the 18 hands of Louhan. 500 monks defeated 10,000 rebels helping the Emperor twice. The monks only using bos helped them to become famous. To me the body mechanics of the Bo is the same as the empty hand. Every one wanted to be a monk to learn this fighting style. So they had to build more Sholin Temples. it took 1000 years for  sorry i got to go........

[TodeSakagawa]

They found statues in India doing kung fu poses that date before Master Bodihama came to China in 525 A.D. the first Chinese written records was, in India he was a prince and studied yoga, and military fighting arts. He all so was the 26 decedent of Buda and he wanted to be a monk and start his own religion called Zen Buddhism. He went to China to give up his riches and become a monk. He went to the Forbidden City to talk to Emperor Wuti he said he could teach this new philosophy but

[Domzdream]

I personally do Okinawan Goju Ryu. It has a lot of kung fu influences, including the hard/soft application which is one of the keys in having a balanced martial art. I personally don't like the typical hard karate, it's too robotic and stiff. I'm very fortunate to have started, and where I have stayed. Kempo is quite similar to Goju ryu.

[SeijiiNakamaru]

Another good book is "The Shaolin Grandmaster's Text" (2004 and 2007). Written by a group called "The Order of Shaolin". Hmmmm... Incredible information though.

[limeslimey]

Very interesting video...I heard recently

tai chi chuan is not real, really just part if tai chi

(daiji?). Is that true? If true how so?

[SeijiiNakamaru]

How is Tai Chi Quan (taiji.) not real? Millions of people practice it. Although, most of them don't practice the Quan part of it. (use it for martial art purposes... like fighting)

[bentinho]

great video. speaking from experience of researching martial arts myself (general and korean, specifically). you have definately done your research. i hate when people refuse to acknowledge the truth when it is right there in front of them...it's so frustrating..

[TxShaolin]

Swordsage, have you read The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar ? Worth a read if you haven't read it

[Swordsage]

I haven't read that one yet, but it's definitely going on my list. Thanks for letting me know about it. :)

[nbaolam]

hey swordsage, where did u get that last picture on ur video of the sword and book

[Swordsage]

Ah man, I wish I could tell ya. I've had that one for quite some time, and even used it as an avatar on a message board or two. But I've completely forgotten where I've lifted it from.

I do know a little about the sword though (or at least I'm mostly sure I do). The jian was apparently made during the Boxer Rebellion and has the words "kill demons" etched on the blade in Chinese. The "demons" in this case meant foreigners. Yeah, pretty grim. Still, it's a beautiful sword isn't it?

[nekftw]

...who still believes in kung fu?....go watch some more movies please...but dont be ridiculus and take what you see in cheap cheesy movies for real..

[universalJok3r]

technically, the main difference between the 'external' and 'internal' is meant to be the form the training takes, external components of an art (which are present even in tai qi) focus on the outward movement i.e punches, strikes, grapples etc...

internal components focus on your own body, balance and how to control your reactions.

but even something as simple as horse stance can cause confusion, is it external? is it internal? is it both? =|

Its everywhere!!!!!

[universalJok3r]

I think it also has alot to do with the esteem surrounding shaolin.

It sounds much better if I were to say "this style is shaolin" than if I were to say "this style was founded by a family of merchants"....

the temple itself is a profitable export to other countries and is popular around the world, if you want to get a style known all you need to do is borrow some wind =)

seeing as I've never paid much attention to long-fist I've never really noticed how similar it is to taiji...

[Britishfever456]

What you say is very accurate. However, it will dissapoint a lot of Shaoliners who think theirs was the original CMA, from which other styles developed. I have found a lot of Shaolin (Temple) students deluded from the rich history of CMA and blindly would credit 'Bodhidharma' as the founder of CMA.

[TxShaolin]

Not disappointed by any means. Bodhidaharma is not so much credited for martial arts but mainly for introducing Buddhism to the temple. I believe the martial arts flowed out of the temple to other areas of China at different points. There are other temples besides the Songshan Shaolin temple. So I think in general everything was mixed which is why some styles of kung fu contain the exact same movements.

[Britishfever456]

According to historians like Professors Ma Xian-Da and Kang Ge-Wu, the location of the Shaolin Temple in Songshan was a main travel route and many travellers taught their forms there and hence the accumulation of large number of forms. I have no issues with what Shaolin Temple teaches today, but I do object when they say others stole their art! Calling everything (other than Taiji, Bagua & HsingI) Shaolin is technically incorrect, and misleads people to the actual origins.

[TxShaolin]

I can't remember a time where Shaolin ever said their arts were stolen. Shaolin is seen as the birthplace of CMA which I think all the CMA styles pay homage to. Obviously, the "pioneers" of certain CMA styles usually get the recognition for creating the style. I just think people take too seriously the phrase "all martial arts were created at Shaolin".

[Britishfever456]

Adam Hsu has another book, "Lone Sword Against Cold Cold Sky"... This guy tells you as it is. No wishy washy pseudo "chi" business that tends to tarnish CMAs.

[Swordsage]

Oh yes, I've heard of that book, and I'm planning on getting it soon. I really liked the first one, and from what I've been told, his second may be even better.

[T850CSM101a1676]

I had heard that "internal" means internal to China. But this is a good video, and now I see.

[Tianshanwarrior]

someone has been reading real works on CMA history, keep it up

[MRCAB]

thanks dude.

[zenofdarkness]

Brilliant as always, Swordsage.

I had no idea that shaolin was a name used to classify martial arts from china not considered wudan arts.

[fleontrotsky]

interesting shit too...

[fleontrotsky]

respect for making a video without a camera.

[tiecuando]

Like Jun Fan Gung Fu.

[tiecuando]

This is an excelent video, and really opened my eyes. I wonder if there are any modern styles decendant from Chinese styles that get it right.

[sfcalvinaz]

Thanks I always learn from you.

Calvin

Phoenix AZ

[ixsikxwitxit]

I don't need to see your face. I care about your thoughts; seeing your lips move on the screen doesn't change the content.

Anyway, it's nice to hear from 'ya.