cont'd from above........Often we will never know unless we ask Bach directly.....However, what is most important is that we carry on a well thought out, fact based, discussion! Well done! I honestly have never read such impressive comments! I know the two of you probably aren't as impressed, as each want to make a point........but WOW! You Both made points, and it's obvious both have done your homework! Thanks for the additional info, and clarifications.........and knowledge!
wow! I just found this documentary and began reading the text. Thanks for opening my eyes, (as an adult, thank you!), and reminding me that we can't always believe everything we read or hear!
Wcbroccoli, and AML2000, I am totally amazed at the background knowledge you have, and the professional way in which you carried out your debate! The conversation between the two of you is almost more interesting than the documentary! Bravo! It's not always who's right or wrong....
There are factual errors too numerous to list. E.g., Prince Johann Ernst was one of Bach's students, NOT a former master, while Bach worked at Weimar for the Prince's uncle, the reigning Duke Wilhelm. The 6 concertos which Bach dedicated in 1721 to the Margrave of Brandenburg were composed years BEFORE 1721, and NOT for the Margrave. The Margrave was NOT a son of Bach's master, Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Coethen. Many on the Leipzig town council preferred Bach from the start.
You'll have to forgive them about Johann Ernst though; keeping track of all the Saxon dukes and duchies could give anyone a headache! The confusion probably comes for the fact that Wilhelm Ernst ruled jointly with his brother Johann Ernst until 1707 but was allowed to do all the work by his alcoholic brother.
I doubt there's any real evidence that Johann Ernst III was alcoholic, as this is a medical condition unknown in a time when everyone regularly consumed beer and wine. I assume he simply prefered to leave administrative tasks to Wilhelm while he (Johann) focused on rebuilding the court capelle from 1683 onward, after their father had dissolved it some 20 years earlier. He began by hiring Johann Samuel Drese as capellmeister and Johann Effler as organist. Bach worked for him briefly in 1703.
Even though Wilhelm Ernst (1662-1728) and his brother Johann Ernst III (1664-1707) ruled jointly, Wilhelm had statutory seniority because he was older.
Wilhelm's seniority prevailed in 1709 when his nephew Ernst August became co-regent.
When his nephew Ernst August came to his part of the throne, he wanted to have a say, which resulted in hostility between the parties. When Bach defied Wilhelm's order not to play at Ernst August's wedding, that resulted in him not getting appointed Kappelmeister. The Johann Ernst that wrote the piece Bach arranged was only 17 when he died. I always thought he was a son of Wilhelm.
Johann Ernst III died in 1707, leaving minor sons Ernst August (1688-1748) and Johann Ernst IV (1696-1715) from 2 marriages. In 1709, when he turned 21, Ernst August became co-regent with his uncle Wilhelm Ernst. Johann Ernst IV died in 1717 when he was only 18. Had he lived another 3 years, he would have become co-regent along with his 1/2 brother and uncle!
In 1716 Ernst August married the sister of Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Coethen & likely helped Bach get the job as Leopold's capellmeister in 1717.
Both dukes regarded Bach as their top court musician; he was the most highly paid member of the capelle.
But with Bach's promotion in 1714 to concertmaster "with official rank below that of Vice-Capellmeister Drese" it was already apparent that Drese was next in line to succeed his father as capellmeister.
A belief in God or a higher power has nothing to do with theology, which is a system of belief. Aesthetics on the other hand, can connect us to a sense of something greater than ourselves. Bach's music does this for many. Even the ancient Greeks connected aesthetics to the Gods. I call this greater "something" God, manifested at times via the human spirit in art, music and architecture. You may not, and that is fine.
But a belief in a god or gods is surely a system of belief.
And the very word "theology" comes from the Greek words for "god" and "words"/"reason"/"study".
And when you said, "if you don't believe in God, you will after hearing Bach's music", you seem to be saying Bach's music is so good that it "must" come from "God:"
One correction though, you said:"Theology is just a system of belief", That's wrong, Theology is litterally:"The study of God, or a higher power or powers". NOT a set system of beliefs. And by the way, Bach had it right, by worshipping the God of the Bible, and dedicating the vast majority of his musical work to the praise and glory of the Lord, like you said, some may not like this, BUT that WAS the decisive motivation in J S Bach's heart, and he repeatedly said so himself..."Soli Deo Gloria"!
Where do you find this video??? :-)
ilrubo89 3 days ago
Great !
ELENAFOGLE 3 months ago
Atheists like Bach too!
kniphofia 1 year ago 2
@kniphofia Yes, we do!
1985Ferris 1 year ago
cont'd from above........Often we will never know unless we ask Bach directly.....However, what is most important is that we carry on a well thought out, fact based, discussion! Well done! I honestly have never read such impressive comments! I know the two of you probably aren't as impressed, as each want to make a point........but WOW! You Both made points, and it's obvious both have done your homework! Thanks for the additional info, and clarifications.........and knowledge!
haydn4ever 2 years ago
wow! I just found this documentary and began reading the text. Thanks for opening my eyes, (as an adult, thank you!), and reminding me that we can't always believe everything we read or hear!
Wcbroccoli, and AML2000, I am totally amazed at the background knowledge you have, and the professional way in which you carried out your debate! The conversation between the two of you is almost more interesting than the documentary! Bravo! It's not always who's right or wrong....
haydn4ever 2 years ago
There are factual errors too numerous to list. E.g., Prince Johann Ernst was one of Bach's students, NOT a former master, while Bach worked at Weimar for the Prince's uncle, the reigning Duke Wilhelm. The 6 concertos which Bach dedicated in 1721 to the Margrave of Brandenburg were composed years BEFORE 1721, and NOT for the Margrave. The Margrave was NOT a son of Bach's master, Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Coethen. Many on the Leipzig town council preferred Bach from the start.
wcbroccoli 3 years ago
You'll have to forgive them about Johann Ernst though; keeping track of all the Saxon dukes and duchies could give anyone a headache! The confusion probably comes for the fact that Wilhelm Ernst ruled jointly with his brother Johann Ernst until 1707 but was allowed to do all the work by his alcoholic brother.
Continued:
AML2000 2 years ago
I doubt there's any real evidence that Johann Ernst III was alcoholic, as this is a medical condition unknown in a time when everyone regularly consumed beer and wine. I assume he simply prefered to leave administrative tasks to Wilhelm while he (Johann) focused on rebuilding the court capelle from 1683 onward, after their father had dissolved it some 20 years earlier. He began by hiring Johann Samuel Drese as capellmeister and Johann Effler as organist. Bach worked for him briefly in 1703.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Even though Wilhelm Ernst (1662-1728) and his brother Johann Ernst III (1664-1707) ruled jointly, Wilhelm had statutory seniority because he was older.
Wilhelm's seniority prevailed in 1709 when his nephew Ernst August became co-regent.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
When his nephew Ernst August came to his part of the throne, he wanted to have a say, which resulted in hostility between the parties. When Bach defied Wilhelm's order not to play at Ernst August's wedding, that resulted in him not getting appointed Kappelmeister. The Johann Ernst that wrote the piece Bach arranged was only 17 when he died. I always thought he was a son of Wilhelm.
AML2000 2 years ago
Johann Ernst III died in 1707, leaving minor sons Ernst August (1688-1748) and Johann Ernst IV (1696-1715) from 2 marriages. In 1709, when he turned 21, Ernst August became co-regent with his uncle Wilhelm Ernst. Johann Ernst IV died in 1717 when he was only 18. Had he lived another 3 years, he would have become co-regent along with his 1/2 brother and uncle!
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
In 1716 Ernst August married the sister of Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Coethen & likely helped Bach get the job as Leopold's capellmeister in 1717.
Both dukes regarded Bach as their top court musician; he was the most highly paid member of the capelle.
But with Bach's promotion in 1714 to concertmaster "with official rank below that of Vice-Capellmeister Drese" it was already apparent that Drese was next in line to succeed his father as capellmeister.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
If you don't believe in God, you will after hearing Bach's music. Pure prayer, cathedrals of sound.
lichtbroeder 3 years ago
I do not see the connection between theology and metaphysics and aesthetics.
watch?v=-JTVtOtKefU
RationalEmotive 3 years ago
A belief in God or a higher power has nothing to do with theology, which is a system of belief. Aesthetics on the other hand, can connect us to a sense of something greater than ourselves. Bach's music does this for many. Even the ancient Greeks connected aesthetics to the Gods. I call this greater "something" God, manifested at times via the human spirit in art, music and architecture. You may not, and that is fine.
lichtbroeder 3 years ago
But a belief in a god or gods is surely a system of belief.
And the very word "theology" comes from the Greek words for "god" and "words"/"reason"/"study".
And when you said, "if you don't believe in God, you will after hearing Bach's music", you seem to be saying Bach's music is so good that it "must" come from "God:"
wcbroccoli 3 years ago
One correction though, you said:"Theology is just a system of belief", That's wrong, Theology is litterally:"The study of God, or a higher power or powers". NOT a set system of beliefs. And by the way, Bach had it right, by worshipping the God of the Bible, and dedicating the vast majority of his musical work to the praise and glory of the Lord, like you said, some may not like this, BUT that WAS the decisive motivation in J S Bach's heart, and he repeatedly said so himself..."Soli Deo Gloria"!
mindaflame7 2 years ago
the best composer on earth for ever
Askelairlines747 3 years ago 8
Thanks. He is my favourite composer
firebreathone2 3 years ago
Thank u for posting. J.S.Bach is one of my most favorite composers ever. He was the genius one.
SopranoLutju 3 years ago 8