Could union ownership reshape auto?

[alloypony01]

Yes , when the boards had ethics and integrity ( down with republicans )

[plutocratarianism]

Compeititon makes the Capitalist world go round, Competition must eventually lead to Hypercompetition due to increased competition overtime, this leads to Crimes and denial of Human Rights becoming a norm, an example of this form of Hypercompetition is Slavery.

You can't get anymore of a competitive workforce than one that is enslaved by the greedy corporations, since they would only have to feed their slaves.

[mikezephyr]

i would like you to read Rousseau's Origins of Inequality. the last part before the end is an accurate description of where we are at now.

[stratvic]

That they could export US made crappy cars is a joke. No one wants them. The US does not export cars.

As far as the Unions go they broke it they own it.

This is at best the Unions moment of truth where we see whether this emperor has clothes or just a mouth. At worst it is a conflict of interest that will screw the worker further. They need a Union to negotiate with the Union.

[R3DF4C710N]

This is so dangerous, but it also presents a unique opportunity for the workers. I honestly don't know how to feel about this.

[brendanmcooney]

Wolfe once again falls short of providing any important insights into the situation because he's forever hindered by his simplistic underconsumptionist theory of crisis. If he understood the theory of the Falling Rate of Profit he'd be making the argument that the auto-industry requires a drastic devaluation of capital before it can become profitable again. The workers are being made to bear the brunt of this. Any radical movement for democracy w/in the UAW will have to take this into account.

[R3DF4C710N]

If he did, he'd sound like he was from Mars. So there's a trade off.

[brendanmcooney]

no, he would sound like he actually studied crisis theory instead of rattling off simplistic underconsumptionist rhetoric. I don't think that it's impossible to be theoretically accurate and to present one's ideas in comprehensible, clear language. These are not mutually exclusive.

[blackiron60]

American workers and workers everywhere need to realize that socialism is not about big government, and it is certainly not about totalitarianism - what it is about is direct worker control and direct democratic participation in the economy and by extension in politics as well. In short, socialism is real democracy and their choice is between this and the authoritarian control of the board of directors which will run them into the ground. A no brainer if you ask me.

[mikezephyr]

i dont think america will ever have socialism.

it's a european movement.

[asperin]

Blackiron60:

If there is "direct worker control" and "direct democratic participation in the economy", then that is Free-Market.

You don't need the other part, "extension in politics as well", because the market would regulate itself, thus, we the workers run things.

Politics are society's glitches. They take place because of laziness, ignorance or mere opportunism by the Politicians.

[mikezephyr]

look at the comments above, you literally have ant-democratic neo-patriots made from the same reactionary and servile mold thousands upon thousands of powerless americans that were slaughtered to fight the wars of the rich.

it boggles my mind to even enter a rational discussion with some americans that insist on the fairytales of the constitution and the free market and conservatism.

[sugarpuddin88]

The Unions will "vote" themselves short work weeks and huge salaries, Christmas bonuses & perks

The American sheeple dupes will got stuck once again holding the tab!

The USA Gov privatizes profit and socializes debt

The Americans have the government they deserve!

[bbburton]

This guy is an idiot.

[0ldhack]

its long over due for us as Americans to start talking about amending the constitution so we can vote on laws.

[jericomovie]

This guy is a crazy person.

[brokendave]

This guy is correct.

[asalade]

I want to know what Wolff is using

[brokendave]

I don't know, but he sure is correct isn't he?

[asalade]

Yes

In his acid induced fantasy world

[brokendave]

Yeah, and in the real world where the corporation has become the dominant structure of control via a military industrial complex, pushing it's agenda of gaining more power and control for itself despite how to it's own detriment it negatively affects quality of life on earth.

The issue is much bigger than any ideology and must instead be discussed through terms of functionality.

[asalade]

Wolff wants to solve the failures of corporatism with even more corporatism. Corporatism within corporatism. Like going to a sauna in hell.

[brokendave]

No he doesn't. He wants what true anarcho syndicalists want, which is a worker controlled environment. He is using the current structure to accomplish this in the most logical and immediate way.

[UKLooney]

This is exactly what happen before the Chinese bought our auto industry. And the union members ended up the biggest losers as they lost there jobs, redundancy payments and their investments in their company. And who finally got the blame?

[brokendave]

He is suggesting ownership of the company at a level that allows control and direct participation at the top. This is unionism at it's finest, and is a great idea.

[Hawkflieshigh]

Bull. If you look in the dictionary under corruption you will find Jimmy Hoffa picture a big union boss's. Oh yeah great ideal steal from the business and from the workers. Good plan for success.

[brokendave]

Do you even know what Jimmy Hoffa really did? He risked his life for the workers. No union leader I know of today would I say the same about. Don't go judging someone before you even know anything about them. Jimmy Hoffa stole from TEAMSTERS when?

Furthermore, what does Jimmy Hoffa have to do with unions seeking ownership of their workplace?

Your comments are tired old republican bullshit. Me 1, you 0.

[Androvich91]

IMO, I'm glad it now belongs to a union, but the thing is, the union is still hierarchical and not not democratic enough. Once the workers ditch the union managers they will be on the right track.

[brokendave]

Easier said than done, but true nonetheless.

[Hawkflieshigh]

Employee owned company very smart indeed. I agree. You and bet when the employees own the company they will ditch the union right a way.

[brokendave]

You lack knowledge of basic unionism.

[Hawkflieshigh]

This guy is a communist not an economist. His work on Marxian class analysis of a detailed study of conditions of existence of concrete forms of performance (we work), appropriation (government takes it away) and distribution (the keep it and let us smell it from our jail cells if we complain) based upon Marx slave (us), feudal (Us when we find out), capitalist (right) and communist (left) class (those most likely on the bottom) process. What no free Austrian market? OMG!

Real news commies.

[0800RelevantElephant]

"What no free Austrian market? "

How does that fit into your rant?

[Hawkflieshigh]

Thanks for asking. It fits into my rant by way of FREEDOM of PEOPLE that is all.

Freedom of an individual to keep what they earn without having a mob of people who have not done anything to help them grow, fund, or sell the products tell them what to do with what they earn. Basic Stuff here. Demo commies are all about MAKING YOU take care of someone else and their buddies are right there to fill their pockets on the way to the POOR. There is not difference between large corporations or commies.

[Hawkflieshigh]

Someone! In fact I was in the military 1969-72 served my country with honor took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign AND domestic. I keep my oaths and will do it until my finish for both you and for all of the rest of those who will not.

Thank you very much! And that is what I am doing here We have a great Constitution we just need to read it and follow it and we will all be happy and free. Apparently 25 plus States think the same thing.

[Hawkflieshigh]

Actually I was in the U.S. Coast Guard and spent my military service saving lives at sea for almost no money and living a town were people hated service people. If that does not qualify as activism for the public good of others I dont know what does. I support the freedom movement from the inside of the system not by storming the fences. It does not mean i dont support those who do rage against storm I DO!. I just know more about Unions and Communism than most. As I have been a member of both.

[Hawkflieshigh]

I was a card carrying member of SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) Communists. I was also a member of the steam fitter local 439 and the maritime union. And yes now I am a Constitutionalists I dont not believe that qualifies as the right wing that has been taken over by the far left Neocons. George Bush was surounded by and supported the NECON movement founded by a proud Trotskyite and member of the forth international Irving Krystol. We just think this Junk is new.

[Hawkflieshigh]

Oh No.. Please let me respond...Irving Krystol founder of the NECON movement was a TROTSKYITE.. Lev Davidovich Bronstein or Lyon Trosky lead the Bolshevik revolution in Russia murdered 500 million Russians Irving Krystol was a PROUD Troskite. Do you get the connection? The far left is the far right...They are all the same. Socialist fascist are pawns in a huge game where everybody loses except the masters. That is what the Russians found out to late. Where do you guys study history?

[0800RelevantElephant]

You seem to be a sweet man, but I've had that crazy nwo discussion too often now, and I can't have it anymore. You never get anywhere, you connect things which are individually all true to some giant ubertruth which I cannot disprove from the same reasons you can't prove it. Please don't come back with a 'but I can prove this detail' because the general assumptions of all your models require belief and all vary somewhere between david icke and alex jones. who's truth is truther?

[brokendave]

What you just typed was a bunch of jumbled nonsense. Whether or not he is or is not a communist does not negate the validity or accuracy of his comments.

[Hawkflieshigh]

How would you know if you can not read or understand words..

[mikezephyr]

what business do you have defending the myths of billionaire economics? unless you own a corporation, you're deluded by false consciousness.

[Hawkflieshigh]

What business do I have defending FREEDOM..Geeze I dont know maybe I dont like being a slave? Maybe I like would like to decide what to do with my wealth instead of having a group of do nothing bureaucrats tell me what the common good is. I am not for Corporations I am for small business ability to grow. You don't have to be a Joe the Plumber to figure this out Unions have done nothing for the workers except take their money and send factories over seas to impoverish America great plan for who?

[controlledentropy]

read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. that is what unions were created to protect workers from.

unions have become problematic but they are IN PRINCIPAL a good thing. this is not about communism or socialism. democracy cannot survive without a stable middle class, and it is the middle class that the economic policies of the last thirty years have eroded.

i will not defend corruption by unions or by union bosses. forming a union is neither an endorsement of or excuse for corruption.

[Hawkflieshigh]

This shows the value of institutionalized education. This the United States was founded as a Republic not a democracy. Democracy is based upon three classes of people, rulers, army, and the workers. The rulers want workers to only intelligent enough to do work and never to question what is told to them as truth. Democracy is based upon Plato's 12 letters which tell us about Socrates all are forgeries. In a Republic the individuals rights and freedom are supreme rule of law.

[controlledentropy]

whatever. regardless, if the middle class continues it's decline, our republic will fail. we are well on our way to creating a ruling elite-political class (re-validated by by corporate media.).

the further polarization of rich and poor perpetuated by runaway capitalism will eventually destroy the personal freedoms you so rightly deem important and wish to protect.

[controlledentropy]

the growing inability for the average single-income family of four to put food on the table, maintain basic health insurance and send their children to college is a glaring problem and a direct result of middle class destabilization.

[Hawkflieshigh]

The Jungle... Let me guess is he a NWO guy. You know sit back and let the smart guys figure it out for all you sheeple...We know better than you savages living in jungle.. Am i close?

[controlledentropy]

seriously, you've never heard of "the Jungle"? it's a book about the deplorable (pre-union) working conditions of the industrial revolution.

[Hawkflieshigh]

Like I said he is a NWO guy. Why do you think he received the Pulitzer Prize? He ran on the Socialist Ticket (commie) and then became a Democrat (commie lite). Pure Food and Drug Act (FDA) and the Meat Inspection Act in 1906. The FDA is the largest corporate shill in charge of making our health care system as expensive and as bad as possible. Thanks Upton. He came from the very wealth he is to have despised. He filled peoples heads with utopia of slaves to the much smarter masters.

[0800RelevantElephant]

Without unions labor in the US would be in bad shape my friend. Without pressure from unions industries would have never given workers security and good wages. If you remember correctly there was something very wrong about how workers were being treated, which is why they demanded better treatment and unionization. Essentially it was the industrialists own fault that labor got so strong. What business do you have though attacking people who want health care coverage for everyone?

[Hawkflieshigh]

Very true and correct!

How about we let people be free and prosperous so they can afford what ever they want for health care. When I consider the current pill pushing snake oil medicine of large providers and insurances companies you are welcome to it. The governments screws up everything they touch and cant even keep a jet liner from crashing into the heart of our defense system. I really want to put my health into their hands...OH YEAH BRING IT ON BABY..

[AbtinX]

you should trust the people who work in the health sector. do you trust a capitalist more than you trust a government official?Silly argument

[0800RelevantElephant]

While you're at it, why don't you also dismiss the successful universal health care systems of Taiwan and Germany. Which cost less than the US system (Ger. less than half), have similar quality standards yet cover everyone.

I'd love to be you and buy into this crap that once health care markets are free they will be so incredibly affordable but I sadly know that the innovation curves of the medical industry will make sure that marginal costs remain the same at increasingly higher Qual. levels.

[mikezephyr]

"done nothing"

yeah, the 8hour workday is not a big deal, and universal healthcare in canada not so great. jesus fuck.

[0800RelevantElephant]

don't be silly German income taxes are more than comparable to the US so is life expectancy and standard of living. Infant mortality is actually much worst in the US, just like the number of children below poverty rate...

On many levels you represent the US' attitude problem. Claiming in a full-bodied manner that in some country people can't feed there children without having any source for statements like this.

[CyberCilypudi]

The US infant mortality statistics are deceptive. What we count as live births that died, other countries just count as "still-births" or dead on arrival. The USA just tries to save more premmies than other countries. Look it up. We're not perfect, but nationalized, socialized medicine is a failure as proved in Canada and the UK. We're not like other countries BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO BE. ha, Socialized Europe can't afford a decent military without the USA to protect them either.

[0800RelevantElephant]

:D You're gorgeous! 'You don't want to be' but you rather eat shit and die but to maybe adapt something which worked in other countries. Ask Americans who lived in Germany how shitty and socialized their health care system is... (PBS documentary) ;) ... well actually don't. As politics are about shaping reality I assume you've shaped yours rather well. Enjoy it!

[CyberCilypudi]

What might work for a smaller country with more homogenous demographics will not necessarily work for a much larger USA with a different economic system. People who are studied here are not fooled by the socialist promises of an effecient egalitarian government controlled healthcare system. Our hospitals would be as poorly maintained as our "public education" and our Amtrak. Our Govt. program Medicaid is what began our health system problems with the greed and theft. We are not complete fools.

[0800RelevantElephant]

309 million people in the US vs. 83 million people in Germany. In my opinion this doesn't qualify for 'much larger'. Also both 'economic systems' are incredibly similar.

Medicare and Medicaid are so expensive precisely because you allow those large profits in the private sector. Egalitarian government controlled? :D So you are saying people in the US are much smarter? Yeah!!

Please, for the love of god, do some research on the topic before you make bold statements like these!

[CyberCilypudi]

Medicare and Medicaid is so expensive because there is poor oversight and accountability as it always is with goverment programs. Fraud and abuse prevails. False & inflated charges and billing by the hospitals and doctors. No government bureaucrat ever cares to audit all the paperwork closely because it's not their money. Insurance and managed care have incentives to control cost. Nothing is perfect, improvements are needed, but we would tax ourselves into a coffin with national healthcare.

[chewbaca1989]

Wow, Russian type crappy cars.

[kmg501]

People should read a bio on this Wolff guy. He is a flat out unabashed Marxist. That is what he has spent his life working on. He is a theory crafter and nothing more. Anyone that is foolish enough to follow what this guys says deserves every bit of poverty and misery that comes their way.

[brokendave]

First off, you've made false ad hominem attacks on Wolff and then used that to somehow negate the validity and accuracy of his comments. Why not stop being a fool, and instead argue what he said.

[kmg501]

Fortunately, most anyone can go find this guys bio and find that you're the liar here. The guy is a Marxist, period.

[brokendave]

Sorry, I'm not going to let you get away with the bullshit. Address his arguments rather than telling us what you think his ideologies are. If you can't do this, then why even speak? You'd be better off saving the energy so you can be sure to remember to breathe.

[kmg501]

Not going to let me do something? How fascist of you.

rethinkingmarxism . org /cms/

Want to know why Americans are having a hard time buying bullets right now? It's because they know commie dip shits like you are out there conniving to rob them of their security and liberty so they are buying such vast quantities that the stores can't keep them in supply. And I'm glad people are buying guns and ammo like no other time in history. It means that they are awake and aware of scumbags like yourself.

[yo1dude1man]

It means there are a lot of people who buying into the "Fear-Mongering" push on our society by Right-Wing scum-bag Hacks.

Congratulation! You bought into the "Fear-Mongering!" Your indoctrination into the cult of HATE.

Now that you have been conditioned into believing your fellow American IS NOW YOUR ENEMY go buy your Ammo.

[kmg501]

And here is another link for people to know what this guy is about.

video . google . com /videoplay ?docid =7382297202053077236

[brokendave]

thanks, good lecture.

[mldnathai]

The solution is simple: ride bicycles and trains and let Chrysler and GM rot and die. Open a bakery or a taylor shop or a bicycle repair shop or a web design company.

Fuck big business.

[brokendave]

Tru dat.

[mikezephyr]

the insistance on a dinosaur industry by orthodox marxists like wolff and even by the right prevents progress.

[AntiShocker]

Chrysler RIP already.

[momerath42]

I'd like to think that the workers at large will start paying enough attention to change the direction of GM and Chrysler, but UAW seems, at best, like a microcosm of the US, and we've obviously failed left and right recently.

[sugarpuddin88]

The Unions will "vote" themselves short work weeks and huge salaries, Christmas bonuses & perks

The American sheeple dupes will got stuck once again holding the tab!

The USA Gov privatizes profit and socializes debt

The Americans have the government they deserve!

[brokendave]

I remember when sheeple was a clever term used by a few hip anarchists. Now it is used by any idiot with an opinion on society.

[thequietkid10]

yeah wasn't this like six months ago....my how times have changed.

[pepsimannampepsi]

The first thing the Union will do is vote themselves raises.

This wont work. Chrysler is done.

[bapyou]

Workers...

...unite.