Part 2. The North American Technate TNAT Technocracy

[coyotee62]

How is this posting influenced by T Boone Pickens, an energy robber baron?

[TBonePickensetc]

@coyotee62 Not in the least. Its a play on words and a joke reference. That guy is a corporate fascist price system flunky.... just as you imply... so not to worry. Technocracy design is entirely different.

[MacabreManifesto]

I honestly think that the first step towards getting technocracy implemented is to still have democratic elections, but have extensive prerequisite requirements in order to run for office. Today the only factors are being > 35 and being born here, both absurd requirements. Well I would think that you kind of have to be > 35 to be competent enough to run the nation, except I could probably do a better job than Sarah Palin and I'm only 19, and she was almost President (huge democracy fail). But...

[MacabreManifesto]

@MacabreManifesto ...the whole born in the states part is pathetically xenophobic. I think that The requirements should be something along the lines of doctorates in sociology and economics, and know to refer to experts on the other subjects, and have the well being of all people maximized to the current state of technology. I think that the democratic idea of changing our leaders is a good idea. If we had the absolute best scientists at the very top, power could corrupt even them after too...

[MacabreManifesto]

@MacabreManifesto ...long. so they must be replaced at intervals. I don't think that people electing officials is the best idea. People don't vote based on competency of a politician, but their rhetoric, appearance, advertisement, religion, etc. So our society, at least right now, doesn't have what it takes to elect the proper officials.

[TBonePickensetc]

@MacabreManifesto Literally, the word `Technocracy' means government by skill, as contrasted to

government by opinion--whether it be an autocracy (government by one man's opinion),

an aristocracy (government by the opinions of an upper class), a plutocracy

(government by the opinions of the wealthy), or a democracy (government by

everybody's opinion). The word `Technocracy' was synthesized and casually used, but

not clearly defined, by others than Technocrats,

[MacabreManifesto]

@TBonePickensetc As far as optimizing society to use resources as efficiently as possible and providing everyone with a level of goods and services that fits within reasonable abundance, I think that technocracy can really do the job because that places a government in place whose very job is to do that. But we also need an ethics committee. Laws are very often based on ethics. Hospitals and labs very often have ethics communities themselves. After all, we only seek to optimize society after...

[MacabreManifesto]

@MacabreManifesto ...we ask, why should we optimize society. Technocracies desire to eliminate toil, rather than fawn over it as is done in Communism and Capitalism, is based on ethics. What about wearing clothes? Would I be able to walk around naked in a Technocratic society? Why or why not? How about Polygamy? Could I take multiple wives and some other woman take multiple husbands and could multiple people marry each-other? How do we punish the remaining criminals? Science isn't meant to...

[MacabreManifesto]

@MacabreManifesto ...answer these questions, who can?

[TBonePickensetc]

@MacabreManifesto You have fun trolling here it seems. Either go away or start getting some of the info. Contract society is 'ethics' then laws and then prisons. So go join the Venus project or Zeitgeist and you can kick around idiot questions like the above and come up with control freak answers. There are no contracts in a technate between people. So... yeah you do not get any of this... and are wasting time and space. That eliminates marriage.. Stop trolling here nowThanks.

[TBonePickensetc]

@MacabreManifesto Don't comment here anymore. Your not getting the information. So go somewhere else. ''''''But we also need an ethics committee. Laws are very often based on ethics''''''''''''' That is Venus project crap or Zeit crap. We are not a moralistic group. There are no laws or judicial system in a technate. That maybe is hard to you but that is the design. No violence or sabotage. No judicial system. Trained people decide if problems arise with people what to do.

[MacabreManifesto]

@TBonePickensetc I have never heard either side proposing a way to deal with ethics ever. Both Tech and Jacque (not Zeitgeist, I think that they are loons) claims that most crime would go away but what would be a crime? Even if you implement a society where all goods and services could be provided, which would reduce crime to the absolute minimum, how would you deal with people who wanted certain culture related things illegal? Such as nudity. Science doesn't invent a constitution

[newb2yutube]

@MacabreManifesto ethics mainly involve private property or other price system related things. As Tbone has stated, trained people such as medical professionals or whatever field is related to the "problem", would address that issue. The problem of ethics however is irrelevant and pointless to this discussion. Why would "ethics" be determined by democratic vote or anybody for that matter?...

[newb2yutube]

@MacabreManifesto Technocracy is the application of technique to society for functional control. Ethics and "power issues" are moot. Whatever works wins outs. That is science. How can this system "corrupt" when it's based on science? Even if you replace the people, the system stays the same. This is why morality and ethics are pointless and not a part of Technocracy technate design. Yes, there are extreme cases the system may not be able to handle very well, this isn't meant to be perfect.

[MacabreManifesto]

@newb2yutube When we are deciding on how large our population is going to be allowed to grow, are we going to have enough room at the end for everyone to have a house or an apartment? Are we going to allow everyone to have a car, or will there be so many people that everyone will have to take mass transportation? Science can find how many houses we can put on earth, but only we can decide if we will encourage everyone to aim for a population where everyone can own a house or an apartment.

[newb2yutube]

@MacabreManifesto Almost all poor populations rely on offspring to handle the struggle of surviving(i.e. farmers and tribal people). Others can be from lack of education(i.e. todays teens). Education and limiting the need for more offspring through raising the standard of living would help with that issue.

Through technology it is very possible to answer those questions if the need arises. Hopefully, as I already pointed out, preventative tools are used.

[newb2yutube]

@MacabreManifesto Please check out or read the Study Course if you haven't done so already.

[a2007raul]

@MacabreManifesto

Wow dude the Technocracy design precludes special interest control that's the whole point. Your using axiologist terminology to advocate forms of opinionated control. The design outlined in the Study Course was built this way for a reason. your ideas are way off sorry

[TrueSacredRahXephon]

@MacabreManifesto Trying to fix the system using its rules is like trying to fix your car while sitting in the passenger seat.

[Giradius]

We did have an industrial revolution in Europe as well you know!

Great video!

[TBonePickensetc]

@Giradius indeed

British really started it.

Then with all the resources in North America it went hog wild.

[TBonePickensetc]

@Nuihc88 ... not so much. He actively casts race baiting aspersion toward TechInc. That we were some how race concerned when we were the first open membership group... probably in the U.S. or Canada as to that. He repeats that over and over in interviews. He is still in competition with Howard Scott. My opinion is this... there is no fool like an old fool... and old egoistic fool. I just do not care for his bullshit. Tuskegee University (black) did research as part of the Technical Alliance also

[Nuihc88]

TZMSocialEvolution made an updated rehash of this presentation, largely same content, same graphs, etc.

Seems like their movement is starting to mature.

This could mark the beginning of a new rise of Technocracy, if we'll manage to properly articulate the benefits of Energy Accounting to them. Even if they have reservations about it, they seem open to new information.

[TBonePickensetc]

@Nuihc88 ... yeah that would be nice. It is odd that the information is so simple and been out there since 1934. I think part of the problem with them is the adoration of people like Fresco who did not really contribute ideas but presented some of the ideas in a negative self aggrandizing way.

Also the conspiracy aspect of Zeitgeist and attempt of ethical .. moralistic aesthetic superiority is probably their downfall. But maybe there will be some positive back and forth with them. Maybe.

[Xenodamus]

At 7:07, he's wrong. It may reach zero if we develop artificial intelligences strong enough to deal with no only menial tasks, but research and development as well, to the point that it becomes too complex for human beings in order to make new breakthroughs. At that point, human beings would be 'obsolete.'

[TBonePickensetc]

@Xenodamus Humans will still have recreation and engage in all kinds of things. Robots are not a replacement for human play either. The Singularity by R. Kurzweil is mostly a scam... as he does not divorce the future from a Price System.. and writes also extensively on money sham issues. Humans obsolete? Thats like saying a car from 1920 is obsolete... thermodynamic laws do not become obsolete... just packaging and technology. Poetry does not become obsolete.

[vman456]

Human beings would become obsolete in the sense that biology will eventually become outdated and humans will MERGE with the technology.

Don't assume it will be a completely separate entity.

[Kimoshnikov]

i'm glad my ideas already have a name

[SomeUser9753]

Unwilling to say, you've always consumed more than you produced.

[TBonePickensetc]

Very much so. The amount of energy used by an individual in society now can not be compared to the level of a hundred years ago. A human puts out about 33 to 88 watts of energy generally. A refrigerator has about a 1/4 horse motor. This meant the frig is 'putting out' much more as an energy slave. No real need for actual human wage slaves anymore, and that which ceases to function ,,, as in this type of economy, will cease to exist.

[tryingtobereal]

This is an awesome presentation.

[TBonePickensetc]

Arvid Pederson did a nice job here yes. All of our membership is volunteer. Right now our info. is being rediscovered by the general public, thanks to modern media.

[rogueaire]

I see the previous comment a month ago has not been addressed. Is there not an unnecessary disadvantage to denying spirituality in Technocracy's otherwise impeccable analysis and creative design concepts?

[TBonePickensetc]

You may have misunderstood something as to that. The technate design does not deny or affirm spirituality. That concept is an opinion, and opinions are never based on fact. The technate design is a scientific social design that does not allow people to be controlled by others opinions in a contract method, such as currently. There is not accounting for opinion. Fact do not fight facts. When special interests ban together they sometimes try to control people. The technate design precludes that.

[rogueaire]

Thanks. Your response is an excellent answer... in my opinion. Technocrats are advised to address the subject as you did. I have, however, found other serious Technocrats who, without any basis in Technocracy literature, nonetheless include pejorative comments about spirituality as part of their presentation.

[TBonePickensetc]

Science is nothing more than the prediction of the next most probable.Any belief system is supported by nothing except imagination,while the next most probable is supported by observation of some phenomenon that can be recreated under the same conditions by anyone,at any time and the result will be the same.This is how fact is established.One can imagine anything.Failing this it simply does not exist.The Technate design was incorporated to protect the material, the Technocracy Study Course

[StopTheMorons]

I'm not sure why Technocracy needs to be tied to secular humanism. If anything that's probably preventing people from welcoming it! Secular means worldly--without spirit. Just because technocracy serves a practical purpose (which I think would be great), what's that got to do with denying spirituality, ie. the essence of being? I believe there is an intuition that is not explanable by logic, yet is a necessary compliment to mind and purpose. Any less than that is a religion of scientism.

[TBonePickensetc]

That is fine for you to believe that... but, it is your opinion. Opinions are never fact. Facts do not fight facts. A scientific social design based on equality of consumption does not bother with peoples attitude toward belief system unless they start doing something sociopathic. Also you are barking up the wrong tree to compare science as a type of religion. You may be a troll in that regard... as to being another ignorant person that ''believes'' in any old nonsense. Look up scientific method

[KARStarla]

I feel so screwed... I so wish I had my youth and my health. I actually love physical labor, gardening and building (as a woman). Now my spine is so screwed up and I'm in such pain...and its all I can think about, how am I going to be able to do for myself and not become someones burden (or rather make them feel I am). I'm overhwelmed by this because I know I'm unable to bend or do heavy labor now though I have always dreamed of a time to live off the land alone, now its here but I'm stuck

[TBonePickensetc]

In a Technate there is no charity... as there is no need for it. Housing, education , recreation, transportation, is free. It does not use a caste or class system... and it is a non political system.

[KARStarla]

I think its awesome, actually there can still be charity (though from what I draw from some of your comments I'm assuming your not a christian or have hostility towards some of them, not sure) But even if one could (infact) give all they had to the poor you could do that very thing without charity so does not just exist in the giving away of all goods anyway but its a quality of heart as the scriptures do appear to indicate. So it really doesnt cancel out charity in the real sense of the word

[TBonePickensetc]

That is a very fine point. Thank you. The system is based on secular humanitarian principle as a default. That means that it is based on having a good society. A good society is not predatory. It takes care of itself. It does not exploit or force people into money slavery. My background is in history and religion and a few other things.

[KARStarla]

I'm kool with that, heck the first christians sold their homes and lands and gave to those who had need and then there was none needy among them anymore, I think it removes the temptation(to some extent) to give more respect or be a respecter of persons on the basis of things that are pretty shallow. I have no problems with this.

You know, I hated history in school, recalling dates and all the crap you dont care much about but I found a love for it being on youtube and relearning things :)

[TBonePickensetc]

Kar... I am not a respecter of persons ala John 2.. 23..25. I know too much. I know that the price system cares for nothing. It is interested in money... only. Charming aspect that you are thinking. Best regards to you.

[KARStarla]

I'm impressed there TBone lol you sure do huh? Hey, I knew too much too then I found I knew nothing at all. After that I knew something again but I never knew it all lol

Though I must admit all those chapter verses are really a pain in the butt arent they? I like, "somewhere it is written" best lol

Thanks for all your help TBone :)

[TBonePickensetc]

Yes.. and night .

[ngonea]

Thank you for this presentation, I have shared it widely, how can I get involved?

[ngonea]

you have a big heart, but in IMHO, charity creates co-dependency relations, that is not good for the human soul. Each must be able to express their full potential freely, without having their contributions stolen by the

"Neo-Cheators,  who feed off others. expl. Enslavement of African ppl. and continued under-development of the cont. of Africa & descendents residing in America as "African Cative Survivor Refugees" purpose of stealing their resources for the benefit of others. You get the pic.

[KARStarla]

Oh if you knew my heart you wouldnt say that I hate looking at it sometimes I wish it were more giving to be truthful, as I see it there can be giving all one has without charity present, I see it as the highest form of love, something I havent in me. And I think being dependent is something we might all have to experience and have either as a baby unable to do for oneself or the elderly (something most of us will be) when we are strong and youthful we forget that might not always be so

[TBonePickensetc]

Yes... a Technate design eliminates charity because all the citizens in a Technate have equal opportunity as consumers. That is the beauty of it. The groups that dole out food and clothers... would disband... as that is not bought or sold but simply gotten in energy accounting. Google Technocracy movement or Technocracy Incorporated by more information and membership. We can use you. Right now the model is being dusted off and presented again... and the clock is ticking with much trouble ahead.

[tlkSmack1]

You can't beat free. But it was said once: "If you think something is expensive now just wait until it's free."

[TBonePickensetc]

Very good. My favorite business model is free.

We are at the crunch break point. The window is still open for change. The Technate design provides a humanitarian secular system.... The Technocracy Study Course... Unabridged contains the information based on thermoeconomics... and energy accounting.

[SuperSapcePretorian]

The US and Canada have what 300 million people? The EU has 500 million and has a much much smaller area than the US&Canada.

Currently only the US has the proper conditions for a technocracy in 50 or so years Europe will be ready. Japan would need more than a century of technical progress to overcome its severe lack of resources.

Currently the price system circumvents this problem by exploitation of the third world.

[TBonePickensetc]

The whole far eastern area is in deep trouble in regard to resources. They have a tiny fraction of the worlds resources. Globalism is expected to collapse from the Pacific Rim area. Indeed that is beginning to happen right now with food shortages that are bound to get much worse due to oil cost.

[TBonePickensetc]

Exploitation is probably a good word in this context. China and others have no choice if the want to play by the Rules of the Game in a Price System. Those rules say to make a profit.

With the lack of resources and huge population in China it seems like a doomsday situation for them.

Japan has a low population relatively and also lots of installed technology available.. and the trained persons.

The real threat of Global Pollution destruction is also upon us... so the clock is ticking.

[TBonePickensetc]

Papinuti... that is installed technology in a continental format. Installed technology.. a proper resource base.. and Technicians are the recipe for a Technate. North America contains approx.52% of the worlds resource base.

You may want to go to the website cited on the Tbone page and actually read some of the material. That is assuming you are actually interested and not overwhelmed with your pre existing opinions.

[Papinuti]

1/3 of tehnology is possesed by americans... Come on do you even know what that means ?

so if america just disaper..the rest of the world downgrade to win 95 ? Did noone heared about Japan or Europe :O

[SuperSapcePretorian]

No we wouldn't. But the truth is that Canada and the US are the largest highly advanced region. Europe and Japan are advanced as well, heck some kind of technata might be possible in Europe, but the problem of Europe or Japan is that we have populations to large for our resources.

[Paddy234]

japan is the most advanced country in the world as they are the most well off people in the world followed by european nations, the US economy is in decline while europes and japans is steadily increasing

[TBonePickensetc]

Would you want to live in Japan? It is a mono culture that copies the U.S. completely. They are lacking in resources and hence dependent on the U.S. for resources.

[Paddy234]

I wouldn't say copies US when it is clearly more advanced, most quality electronics come from around that region

[TBonePickensetc]

Japan got its Technology originally from the U.S. in the post war period. Europe is also completely dependent on North America for a great deal of food... and it depends on Russia for energy.

Science is science. What ever science works best is the science that can be used.

All humans share the same ability to perform in technological ways.

North America has about 52% of the worlds resource base... which gives us... with our energy output... the most chance of social change.

[Paddy234]

We live in a global economy where each continent relies on each other, China is becoming the worlds largest superpower taking over the US, the US economy and dollar is very weak now

[TBonePickensetc]

We can pull the plug on the global economy any time we care to. They need us... we do not need them. We have the resources.. they have our debt... China and the entire far East has less than 7% of the world resource base and provides slave labor only... China is within 20 minutes of total destruction by Polaris Submarines and has been since the 1950's. The dollar is the world hegemony as regards money.. because of our resources... so Paddy... you do not know your ass from a whole in the ground.

[Paddy234]

saying that america can pull itself out of the global economy is extremely silly when nearly everything you have made such as clothes or electronics is made in areas like china, india, japan, did you forget that china threatened to liquidate the america dollar not so long ago and the US shit itself, no nation is self sufficient now

[TBonePickensetc]

Dream on.

Globalism is about to collapse... then we shall see who has the ability to change. Resources are the key.

[TBonePickensetc]

Me too.

[Dennisinlife]

I hope people wake the fuck up and do away from the price system.