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From: Jarkko1983
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  • Why do you mormon apologists not understand that your defenses of racism are always based on things other than your scripture and that that makes your defenses weak anecdotal and pathetic. You would rather not be seen as embracing your founders as long as the world knows that they were a bunch of charlatan white supremacist knuckledraggers. Is that why none of the dozens of missionaries I've talked to lead with Joseph Smith calling my dark skin the sign of a curse? Just Stop It.

  • this guy like many sympathizers attempts to cut down the bible in order to circumvent LDS policy/teachings had towards blacks. This common all the time as is the reason why this issue continues to keep black people in america away from this religion.

  • @LAWTV1

    My home ward is 80% black, most blacks are smart enough to know that cultural biases and weaknesses in people exist in all religions and all people, even prophets. and that these lineage heritages do have something to do with eternal scheme of things as it's clear from the bible. Most try to understand the issue instead of making silly half thought conclusions.

  • Thats right kids, remember that christians are racists too.

  • @housemastah nice try but there is nothing in the bible pertaining race.......at all.

    THE DOCTRINE is racist,or it was until they changed it............................­.......

  • @housemastah mormons are not racist

  • Mormons to lend Helping Hands at state parks

  • 7. Your entry must be postmarked on or before July 31, 2010. Your artwork will not be returned to you.

    Your entry might be featured in an exhibit at the Church History Museum, from January 3 to July 4, 2011; in an online art show on the Friend Web site; or in "Our Creative Friends." Not all entries will be used or exhibited.

  • A CES fireside for young adults ages 18 through 30, both married and single, will be transmitted over the Church satellite system on Sunday, May 2, 2010, at 6:00 p.m. MDT, with subsequent rebroadcasts to many areas of the world. The speaker will be Bishop H. David Burton, Presiding Bishop of the Church. The broadcast will originate from the Brigham Young UniversityHawaii campus in Laie, Hawaii.

  • Other speakers scheduled for Thursday included the Young Women general presidency: Sister Elaine S. Dalton, president, Sister Mary N. Cook, first counselor and Sister Ann M. Dibb, second counselor. Renata Forste, chairwoman of the department of sociology at BYU, spoke at the afternoon general session.

  • Using the example of a lioness at the gate, Sister Beck spoke of the role of women and the importance of prioritizing the essential things in life.

    "We have to know what are responsibilities are and how to fulfill those," she said. "We know that as women of God, this is a time that we need an increase of faith and personal righteousness."

  • First it wasn't up to Smith to "give" us our equal rights like its not up 2 ME to "give" u urs. THAT comes from G-d & G-d alone. 1:35

    The book of Abraham was pure conjecture, based on Smith's attempt 2 make something of that papyrus scroll, with what we now commonly KNOW as the story of Osirus, Isis & Horus- ..HE & THEY just didn't.

    Israelites kept to only Israelites- ..but Israelites were ANYONE that wud stay & follow G-d, not the wicked.

    RACE had NOTHING 2 do with it till Smith.

    Ts.

  • @MarcusDarling4026

    The Book of Abraham is probably the greatest religious translation of an ancient document EVER.

  • @omiolo, You should really pray about that.

  • @MarcusDarling4026

    Mormons pray over ALL things. We enjoy talking to our Heavenly Father. I am sorry you do NOT cherish prayer!

  • @slu2com

    You know for someone who doesnt beleive in religion you sure as hell spend alot of time trying to disprove it. If you are sure that it's false then let it be already. Maybe you could focus on government corruption in America instead.

  • President Spencer W. Kimball (1972):

    Racial prejudice is of the devil. Racial prejudice is of ignorance. There is not place for it in the gospel of Jesus Christ. (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.237)

  • President Joseph Fielding Smith (1962):

    The Latter-day Saints, so commonly called Mormons, have no animosity toward the Negro. Neither have they described him as belonging to an INFERIOR race. (Deseret News, Church Section, June 14, 1962, p.3)

  • President Brigham Young (1863):

    Men will be called to judgment for the way they have treated the Negro. (The Mormon Hierarchy 1:762)

  • Brigham Young (1860):

    Negroes should be treated like human beings, and not worse than dumb brutes. For their abuse of that race, the whites shall be cursed, unless they repent. (Journal of Discourses 10:111)

  • Thanks for your comments.

    You sure attracted a nice crowd :)

  • Ducking and dipping all day!

  • An army officer who was stationed in the deep south, already used to the racism there was very surprised at the racism in Utah when he went there to visit!

  • Nice try, Ewire2701.

    I have scores more anecdotes that evince just the opposite of your silly story.

  • So...adam and eve are black?? if they got black kids??

  • You need to get acquainted with science, genetics show that white people came from Africa, the Bible is full of inaccuracies and the Book of Mormons is a farce.

  • mmhhmm humans came from east africa

  • LDS still teaching this in 3-12-2009

    SEED OF CAIN KEEPS CURSE ON LAND THROUGH HAM>

    24...from Ham,sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.(Abraham 1:23-24)

    Mormon God turns the seed of CAIN BLACK>

    "..A BLACKNESS came upon all the children of Canaan..(Moses 7:8)."

    seed of CAIN are now BLACK>

    "...for the seed of Cain were BLACK...(Moses 7:22)"

    BLACK SEED of CAIN CAN NOT HOLD THE PRIESTHOOD>

    "being of the lineage by which he could not have the right of PRIESTHOOD(Abraham 1:26-27)"

  • i used to be christian but now im blessed to have found islam

  • Hey! Jarkko1983 The Mormon God curses the Lamanites which the Mormons believe are the American INDIANS with BLACK SKIN for rebelling against him."...wherefore,as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome,that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a Skin of Blackness to come upon them(2Nephi 5:21)."The Mormon God turns the Indians Back White if they OBEY him"And their curse was taken from them,and their skin became white like unto the Nephites"(3Nephi2:15).

  • And I quote "ANY MORMON MARRYING A NEGRO WILL BE KILLED ON THE SPOT" Brigham Young

  • For a world religion class I attended a mormon service, it was life changing! Really was amazing! Of course thats why I walked out in the middle extremely disturbed by the sexist nature. No woman of authority even the children picked out for different jobs all male! Then you split up men and women! Im a man and I was ashamed of this. Then just because my friend is mexican he can not go as high up in your after life because he's not white yet you say your not racist?

  • ericbookie-

    Mormon men adore their wives, daughters and sisters.

    Your perception is frankly incorrect.

    As for your statement about your Mexican friend - I have no idea where you heard such a thing, b/c that is absolutely ridiculous.

    Some food for thought- the priesthood ban had no affect on any man's ability to find happiness in this life and receive the highest possibility gift in the next - namely eternal life.

    If you were humble, then you could truly understand spiritually.

  • @ericbookie the lds church is not sexist nor racist

  • I would not blame the racist practices on 1800's america, Most Mormons were abolitonists and Joseph Smith ordained Elijah Abel, who became a seventy. Brighman Young barred Abel from entering the temple later on. Also I suspect many Mormons were from New York and already probably held anti-slave attitudes.

  • Brigham Young was a prophet of God, one would expect more than the racist things he said

  • If you read the Old testament and compare young to those prophets, he seems like a lot easier going guy.

    Young was a american and americans were racist in those days, why wouldn't he be too?

    Youngs racism was more doctrinal understanding of old christian traditions.

    Smith wasn't ever racist, but he was taught by god from 14 years upwars while young was a lot older before he came to the gospel and thus older ideas had rooted into him. Old bottles can't hold new wine, they will burst, says jesus

  • Good job another one of my pet peeves addresses and you don't seem to pull any punches. Feel free to delete my comment i made on your channel page and I will post something more appropriate.

    How did Black men go to the temple in the early 1900s without the priesthood? Are you sure you have that right?

  • They were allowed to attend the proxy baptisms without the priesthood, women don't have the priesthood and they can attend too.

  • The Utah territory never belonged to the USA, because the USA never belonged to the USA, it belonged to Great Britain - you convinced me of that!

  • "The Utah territory never belonged to the USA, because the USA never belonged to the USA, it belonged to Great Britain - you convinced me of that! "

    Wait now. Before we get burried in technicalities.

    Can you tell me right now if you think that the USA belongs to Great Britan right now?

    As for the American Revolution, I will have to disagree with your point of who owned what.

  • You dug the technicality hole, not me. America belonged to Great Britian, the founding fathers of the United States wanted religous and other freedoms they believed God gave them. However, viewed the founding fathers as rebels and crimials and a war broke out. However, the colonies had the home court advantage and far more men then Brigham Young. I guess the US founding fathers thought possession was 9/10 the law. But Brigham Young, being LDS and the minority, is a victum of double standards.

  • Correction:

    However, Great Britain viewed the founding fathers as rebels and crimials and a war broke out.

  • "You dug the technicality hole"

    Actually, I disagreed that anyone took Utah from the Mormons. Heck, Mormons are still there.

    I also argued that the US bought the Utah area from Mexico, so GB couldn't have owned Utah at that time, regardless what you think of the American Revelution.

    But the question remains, and you did not answer.

    Do you believe that Great Britian owns the US now?

  • I'm just following you logic that you laid out and it makes the USA look just as guilty as you try to make the Mormons look.

  • At Rutgers University now, got a problem with that one also?

  • "At Rutgers University now, got a problem with that one also? "

    Let me guess. They are training you to be an astronaut?

    Or maybe you are working on your 8th master degree so that you can impress everyone that comes over to your house with all of the expensive paper thats on your wall?

    So what?

  • No actually, I'm getting the degree because I accurately predicted the country is falling apart and figured the first people that will be burned ar the poeple that write hate messages on Youtuba all day and knew that I will be prepared for the every demanding jon market. Better get your year supply of food stocked!

  • Youtuba = Youtube

  • "that I will be prepared for the every demanding jon market."

    Cool, have fun in "the jon market".

    I was running a successful business when I was 25, while my friends were still racking up debt in college. But whatever floats your boat.

  • Jon = job - notice that "b" and "n" or next to eachother on the keyboard?

    Oh I worked for 11 years, I worked in the financial data business in New Jersey. Then decided to go back to college. So, I have paid my dues and I paid off my house.

  • Thats cool. School is fine, especially if you learn something from it.

    But after dabbling around in college for a few years, I started 3 semi-successful businesses by the time I was 25, and I decided I like business better than college.

    Now I have plenty of time to do personal research.

    I don't need a degree to prove my point, or to show I know something. Which is my point.

    A degree is a piece of paper. If it does something for you... Right on.

  • "How could the USA take Utah as a terriory when the USA was squatting in Great Britain's land? "

    I think you have a lot of resentment for our government. Are you a liberal? LOL (just kidding)

  • "However, the Utah territory never belonged to the USA."

    Actually, before the US owned the Utah territory, Mexico owned it.

    The US paid $20 million dollars approximately to buy the land known partially as "the southwest US" from Mexico in 1847.

    The land was never owned by the Mormons. They were just squatters.

  • In 1850, the Utah Territory was created with the Compromise of 1850. Mormons came before that. Became state 1896.

    The important fact is that The President used the Mormons as a pawn in a murdous game of chess to distract the USA from the lucrative slavery. Also, the fact the Mormons where forced to leave from the USA (even though they where US citizens protected by a constitution that garanteed freedom of religion) due to extermination orders ignored by the corrupt federal government.

  • "In 1850, the Utah Territory was created with the Compromise of 1850. Mormons came before that. Became state 1896."

    The US government bought the US territory in 1847. And before that, Mexico owned the land.

    Before the Mormons, Mexico was the owner. How much did Brigham Young pay Mexico to squat on what is known as Utah?

    And before the Mormons, were the Indians.

    The list goes on and on. Fact is, the Mormons were just squatters. And they were breaking the laws of the land.

  • Well, who's fault was it that caused Mormons to run for their lives. The crime that was committed was by the USA who allowed their own citizens to be abused and murdered due to bigoty and allowed Mormon's to be stripped of their consitutional rights of freedom of religion.

    "And they were breaking the laws of the land." - Bullshit the USA was breaking the laws of the land.

    The USA at the time of the Utah War belonged to Great Britain by you own logic! USA is a criminal!

  • "Well, who's fault was it that caused Mormons to run for their lives."

    Joseph Smith.

    The extermination order that Governor Boggs unfortunately issued was due to Porter Rockwell shooting him, with a pistol that he was accused of stealing just a few days before.

    It was thought that Governor Boggs would surely die. But he recovered quickly, and ordered the Mormons to leave his state.

    The Mormons had gotten themselves into a lot of trouble in Missouri. It's really quite sad.

  • All bullshit!

  • hahahahaahahaahahah porter rockwell has been proven to be too far that he could have ever shot boggs, eye witnesses reute such claim, also porters own witness: "is he dead? well then you know it wasn't me"

  • "porter rockwell has been proven"

    I have no idea what you're talking about.  You're video didn't even mention Porter.

    If you want to debate my video. You know where it is.

    That is, if you are ok with someone that doesn't have a degree in the subject.

    BTW- You never answered my questions.

    1. Where is your degree?

    2. Why do you even debate me then?

  • "'That makes little sense. "

    It's probably not your fault. Maybe your mom dropped you on your head?

  • LOL, then how do you explain the two college degrees that I have? Hmmmm

  • "LOL, then how do you explain the two college degrees that I have? Hmmmm "

    Did your daddy buy them for you, like Bush's dad bought his?

    Or was it an internet degree?

  • LOL, ahh and your a liberal, another piece of the apostasy puzzle is filling in. Thank you!

  • "LOL, ahh and your a liberal, another piece of the apostasy puzzle is filling in. Thank you! "

    Liberal. Is that another way of marginalizing people.

    Actually, my voting record has been mostly Republicans, and Ronald Reagan is my favorite president.

    LOL, wrong again.

  • You do realize that all this does is bring curiosity about Mormons and missionary work always benifits from it. Thanks for all your hardwork to bring the LDS church to the forefront!

  • "Thanks for all your hardwork to bring the LDS church to the forefront! "

    You're welcome. I hope it helps!

  • The points are.

    1. The US did not take Utah away from the Mormons as you claim.

    2. Brigham Young did indeed petition congress to legalize slavery.

    3. That you don't know your Utah history from a hole in the ground.

  • Brigham Young accepted Buchanan's terms and pardon, although he denied Utah had ever rebelled against the United States. Buchanan's proclamation was also unpopular among the Mormon rank and file. Arthur P. Welchman, a member of a company of missionaries that was recalled due to the war, wrote of the document:

  • "Brigham Young accepted Buchanan's terms and pardon, although he denied Utah had ever rebelled against the United States."

    Low and behold we find out the truth. They came to an agreement. However that is not "taking Utah away from the Mormons".

    What that is, is the US gov telling the Mormons  "you obey the laws of the land, or else we will enforce the law".

    The LDS people only partially complied. They continued to break federal laws while practicing polygamy until 1890 (and beyond).

  • Wrong, asshole the war was not bloodless ultimately resolved through negotiation because they knew that you ancestors where capable and committed much muder against Mormons and the Indians. The small group of Mormons could not fight the entire US. What is proven is that President Buchanan was willing to musder all the Mormons as a way to divert attention away from the lucrative issue of slavery. Such horrible poeple your ancestors are!

  • "Wrong, asshole the war was not bloodless "

    You're right. Did you ever read about the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

    "ultimately resolved through negotiation"

    Right, like I said. The US gov didn't "take" anything.

    "because they knew that you ancestors where capable and committed much muder against Mormons and the Indians."

    My ancestors ARE Mormons and Indians numb nut.

    "The small group of Mormons could not fight the entire US. "

    Right, which is why they should obey the law.

  • Hey, asshole every hear of the Haun's Mill massacare before that where children and elderly men where butchered by your so called "christain" ancestors. That was just one incident! Bigot!

  • "Hey, asshole every hear of the Haun's Mill massacare"

    Yeah, and that had nothing to do with Utah.

  • yes it did, because that is one of the reasons Mormons went to Utah.

    So, utahpirateradio when where you excommunicated?

  • "yes it did, because that is one of the reasons Mormons went to Utah.

    So, utahpirateradio when where you excommunicated? "

    I was more in-tune with the ways of the LDS church. I got my name removed 8 years ago. I never experienced church discipline in any way.  No excommunication, no disfellowshipment. Nodda.

  • Cmon tell me what you did. It must of been very bad to produce such gnashing of teeth and hatred.

  • "Cmon tell me what you did. It must of been very bad to produce such gnashing of teeth and hatred. "

    What I did? I found a true, non-religious relationship with Jesus, and then I left the LDS dogma behind.

    Im very happy about that.

  • "non-religious relationship with Jesus"

    Translation, atheist

  • ""non-religious relationship with Jesus"

    Translation, atheist "

    This is where I continue to think that you are mentally handicap.

    An atheist doesn't believe in God right?

    Well I do, and that is clear from my statement.

    I believe in Jesus. I also believe that Jesus is God.

    In other words (my very slow friend). Im not an atheist.

  • I see, you believe in Jesus but you want to interpret what Jesus "really" meant as long as it does not inconvienece you and conflict with your flaws.

  • "I see, you believe in Jesus but you want to interpret what Jesus "really" meant as long as it does not inconvienece you and conflict with your flaws."

    That may be true, yet I don't agree.

    However, that is EXACTLY how it was with Joseph Smith.

    Joseph Smith wanted more sexual partners, so he creates a revelation and says "god told me to".

    I don't make up God's laws as I go. I just decided to not be dogmatic or religious about my RELATIONSHIP with Him.

  • LOL, if Joseph Smith just wanted allot of sex, fancy homes, money, and power all he had to do was become a typical Evangelical preacher like Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, and Ten Haggard. Then Joseph Smith could have had all that and as a bonus not have been murdered!!

  • typo - Ten = Ted

  • "LOL, if Joseph Smith just wanted allot of sex, fancy homes, money, and power all he had to do was become a typical Evangelical preacher like Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, and Ten Haggard."

    He did.

  • "LOL, if Joseph Smith just wanted allot of sex, fancy homes, money, and power all he had to do was become a typical Evangelical preacher like Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, and Ten Haggard.

    He did."

    - He didn't that's the point that was given, you have not demnstrated how that happened.

  • "Then Joseph Smith could have had all that and as a bonus not have been murdered!! "

    Joseph Smith was murdered in part because he destroyed a press, and violated the freedom of speech as defined in the Constitution under the first amendment.

    Joseph Smith also started a phony bank called "the Kirtland Safety Society" that ripped of hundreds of people, and was not warranted to be a bank by the US treasury. In fact the treasury turned the bank charter request down.

  • This is the stupidest think I have heard yet. Joseph Smith was murdered because of bigotry of average americans. The same people where responsible for lynching blacks. Horrible mindset and morals you have. I understand why you where excommunicated now!

  • "Joseph Smith was murdered because of bigotry of average americans."

    Joseph Smith was murdered because he was a crook, and a law breaker, and someone who hurt the families and businesses of other people.

    It was only a month before he died that he gave the order to have the press (The Nauvoo Expositor) destroyed.

    Had he not destroyed the press, his life would have lasted longer.

  • First of all, everything you say about Joseph Smith is a lie and a misrepresentation. Second, I think murder would be cruel and unusual punishment for the hypothetical "crimes" you list! (excuse me as I roll my eyes!)

  • "First of all, everything you say about Joseph Smith is a lie and a misrepresentation. "

    Really? Prove it.

    "Second, I think murder would be cruel and unusual punishment for the hypothetical "crimes" you list! "

    Joseph Smith ruined William Laws business, and destroyed his life's work. Which probably cost William Law a lot of money.

    That in turn hurt William Laws family. And also underminded the US constitution and the Freedom of Speech.

    I think it's a good reason.

  • No, you prove it, you are making the outlandish claims not me!

  • "No, you prove it, you are making the outlandish claims not me! "

    LOL

    I've made 50 videos with my proof, and I've listed my sources unlike you.

    Your claims of how the "US took Utah away from the Mormons" and how I got excommunicated are outlandish and require proof. If you can't prove it, then move on boy.

  • LOL, do you have a job or are you part of one of those pathetic anti-Mormon ministries? (Utah Lighthouse Ministry perhaps)?

  • "LOL, do you have a job or are you part of one of those pathetic anti-Mormon ministries? (Utah Lighthouse Ministry perhaps)? "

    You are very interested in me, but not very interested in the facts.

    It's funny how much time you spend here talking with me this morning, and then you ask ME if I have a job?

    Do YOU have a job?

    Or did the employer not believe all of the BS that you put on your resume?

  • I'm a computer science grad student.

  • "I'm a computer science grad student. "

    And your also light on the facts regarding Utah history.

  • "And your also light on the facts regarding Utah history."

    Well at least I'm shrewd enough to pickup on the fact it was called the "Utah War" and "Buchanan's Blunder" and not the "Utah Peaceful Negotiation And Land Transfer Festival"

  • "Well at least I'm shrewd enough to pickup on the fact it was called the "Utah War" and "Buchanan's Blunder" and not the "Utah Peaceful Negotiation And Land Transfer Festival"

    Is that what it's called "shrewed"?

    I was thinking more like Moronic.

    Utah never belonged to the Mormons for it ever to be taken from them. If they got evicted (which they didnt), for not following the rules. How is that different from any other lawless band of outlaws?

  • Yep, thats a typo shrewed = shrewd.

  • "Yep, thats a typo shrewed = shrewd. "

    Yup, my bad. I have typos from time to time.

  • I guess I got you pegged since you didn't answer the question about yourself!

  • "I guess I got you pegged since you didn't answer the question about yourself! "

    It must have been a divine revelation, huh?

  • I already did my work, I went to BYU learded true LDS history and graduated!

  • "I already did my work, I went to BYU learded true LDS history and graduated! "

    Ahh yes. All of the cherry picked proproganda that was selected by the LDS church at the LDS church owned university.

    Yes, that makes you an expert alright! ROFL!

  • "Ahh yes. All of the cherry picked proproganda that was selected by the LDS church at the LDS church owned university."

    Ahhh JEALOUS!

  • LOL

  • if buy would teach propaganda it would lose it's university title, since universities have certain quality checks, actually buy is quite respected especially in the biblical and near eastern studies, their history teaching won't go low either since there are quality requirements, therefore we can conclude that escape new jersey is more educated on utah history since his knowledge comes from university while yours come from propaganda groups that are independent and have no quality requirements.

  • your videos have been proven false historically many times before, there's no need to do it again here with 500 letters.

  • Quite untrue. You can also note that I used mainly LDS sources for my history too. Something that Mormons may try to avoid. But either it's true history or it's not true. You Mormon's can't have it both ways.

    If it's not true, then don't continue to use it to prove your points. If it is true, then my video is historically accurate.

  • In my video youtube. com/watch?v=bA9lpcBIiL8

    You can look to the right in the description, and you can note all of the resources that I used, and you can follow links for more documentation.

    I also posted references directly on the video itself.

    I have all of my points WELL documented, using mostly LDS sources.

  • again, the you use them out of the cultural context and out of the context of the message, or you just impose certain ideas on them that the original authors didn't mean, or require ifallibility from men.

  • your use od lds history is to copu paste certain parts ang ingnore 99 % of the context. Why would mormons keep such huge history if it's all so bad for their image? you make nbo sense.

  • again, smith was only one of the many who votd on the destruction of the press, even many non lds voted for it, therefore he wasnot killed because of that.

  • youtube. com/watch?v=bA9lpcBIiL8

  • "I understand why you where excommunicated now! "

    Again, if you want to bear false witness. That is something that you will answer for, not me.

    However, as I explained before. I was never disciplined by the LDS church, and never ex-communicated.

  • You will have to answer to your lies also!

  • "You will have to answer to your lies also!"

    Ok. So lets discuss this.

    I can name at least 2 blatant lies you have issued in this coversation.

    1. That the US gov took Utah away from the Mormons (never happened)

    2. That I was excommunicated by the LDS church. (never happened)

    What lies have I made?

  • You have lied and misreppresented everything!

  • "You have lied and misreppresented everything! "

    You've not proven anything.

    Get some balls and make a video. Prove your case.

  • Any idiot like you can cut and paste well refuted anti-Mormon propaganda from annti-Momron websites and throw together a video.

  • "Any idiot like you can cut and paste well refuted anti-Mormon propaganda from annti-Momron websites and throw together a video. "

    And any MORmON like you can claim that the US government took Utah away from the Mormons, or that someone like me got excommunicated.

    But that doesn't mean you have any facts to back your position. You are just another Mormon apologist desperate to make any small point to make yourself feel like you have won some battle for your silly religion. Funny.

  • utah pirate you have not proven anything either.

  • How could the USA take Utah as a terriory when the USA was squatting in Great Britain's land?

  • "How could the USA take Utah as a terriory when the USA was squatting in Great Britain's land? "

    The USA was squatting where?

    You think that GB owned Utah in 1847? What the hell are you going on about now?

  • the destruction of the press had nothing to do with smiths murder, since smith was only one of the members in the city council who uninomusly agreed to destroy the nauvoo expositor as a public nuisance, even non lds were in that council, why weren't they arrested ans killed? because this action is given as a poor excuse against smith alone because of bigoty.

  • "the destruction of the press had nothing to do with smiths murder"

    The destruction of the press came only a few months before Joseph's murder. I made 2 videos on Joseph Smith's alleged martyrdom. Watch them, and learn something young one.

  • you just ignored my reply ehere I basically destroyed your claim and your videos message.

  • youtube. com/watch?v=bA9lpcBIiL8

  • so you are actualy religious freak, I thought you are atheist, well, let's debate in private mail about some of your issues you have with mormon dogma, and post that debate here in youtube, are you upto the task?

  • "let's debate in private mail about some of your issues you have with mormon dogma, and post that debate here in youtube, are you upto the task?"

    I don't need to have a private debate. I've made nearly 75 videos on Youtube, and I have 1000's of posts already on my three YouTube accounts where I have had rather PUBLIC debates.

    I am not only up to the task. I have already completed it, and Im waiting for you to catch up!

  • "so you are actualy religious freak,"

    Actually, I don't have a religion.

    Religion is for legalistic people, and pharisees.

  • "Hey, asshole every hear of the Haun's Mill massacare before that where children and elderly men where butchered by your so called "christain" ancestors. That was just one incident! Bigot!"

    I forgive you because you are mentally retarded.

    But I think I've told you at least a dozen times, that my ancestors are Mormons, going back to the 1850s.

    None of my ancestors every persecuted or killed any Mormons.

  • You must bring your family great shame! You are a bitter pathetic little man from what I gather in such a short time!

  • "You must bring your family great shame! You are a bitter pathetic little man from what I gather in such a short time! "

    I'd rather be known as bitter an pathetic, than completely brain-washed with LDS propaganda and false LDS history.

    At least pick up a non-LDS book for a resource every now and then. Then at very least you won't go making claims like "the US government took Utah away from the Mormons".

    Geeze, speaking about pathetic. Your statements top the list!

  • I proved that USA took the Utah territory under the threat of extermination. I know you won't admit it here but you know, and everybody else reading will also!

    About you being a Mormon, you lied about everything else and are probably lying about your history. But it does not really matter and neither do you.

  • "I proved that USA took the Utah territory under the threat of extermination. "

    What you did, was used some un-identified hearsay to recite the history of Utah that did NOT include the US government taking ANYTHING.

    What happened was (not a drop of blood shed). The US government sent an army to negotiate with the Mormons.

    The did ONLY that. Not one shot was fired.

    In the end, Brigham Young agreed to live by the laws of the land. Even though it took another 50 years for the Mormons to do so

  • "What you did, was used some un-identified hearsay to recite the history of Utah that did NOT include the US government taking ANYTHING."

    That makes little sense. Your tap dancing!

    By your logic I guess Iraq didn't take Kuwait by force because Kuwait was not equipped enought to fight Iraq!

  • 'That makes little sense. "

    Thats what I am saying. You are slow.

    For example. I say I believe in Jesus, then you counter with calling me an "atheist".

    It makes little sense to you, because you have a hard time with facts and logic.

    "By your logic I guess Iraq didn't take Kuwait by force because Kuwait was not equipped enought to fight Iraq! "

    No, Kuwait never belonged to Irag, like the Utah territory belonged to the US.

    The US can't take something that they already own.

  • Actually, Kuwait did once belong to Iraq. However, the Utah territory never belonged to the USA. It was taken by the Manifest Destiny invented doctrine by the people who wanted to steal it.

  • "Actually, Kuwait did once belong to Iraq. However, the Utah territory never belonged to the USA. It was taken by the Manifest Destiny invented doctrine by the people who wanted to steal it."

    When the Mormons came to Utah, the US already had bought that land from Mexico.

    So before the US owned the land, Mexico owned it.

    There was never a time when the Mormons legally owned Utah exclusive of the US.

  • porter rockwells biography demonstrates that fires wee indeed shot, but they got away from the army troops and weren't hit. Mormons also fired many shots to scare the trrops, burned their wagon trins and humiliated them without killing any. Young insisted later on that te remaining trains should not be burned, otherwise he's got 5000 troops to feed. Mormons could have killed them all if they had wanted and if they were as violent as antimormons would have them to be.

  • you still haven't proved anbything while the other guy gets his view from university while you have no credentials to talk about the issue.

  • "while you have no credentials to talk about the issue"

    Listen young one. If you think that a degree in history or religion is essential for discussing this topic.

    1. Where is your degree?

    2. Why do you even debate me then?

    Check out my videos!

  • Sorry, but before I get my own computer and cam, I don't have the means to make videso to counter your idiotic claims, but before that you could have a private mail debate, where you can't delete my comments or do anything what you can in your own forums, then we could post that debate here for all to see. if you are affraid to debate out of your own video forums where you can delete or control things, it proves that you are affraid. My point in credentials was university vs propaganda sources.

  • "but before that you could have a private mail debate, where you can't delete my comments or do anything what you can in your own forums"

    1. We are debating in YOUR forums, where I can't even delete my own posts.

    2. I've NEVER deleted anything from my forums from anyone.

    3. I will continue to debate you publicly since I have nothing to hide.

    4. Your excuse of not having a camera is funny.

    5. Yes this is my second YouTube account.

  • 6. You're a moron. I mean Mormon!

    Of course you would rather debate privately.

  • privately at least staying on the dubject would be easy, plus it would allow us to make better claims with better research on our answers and no confusing messages obscuring the debate since in videos too many people comment at the same time. After the debate would be over, we could post the debate here as video, to make it more public than comment chains are. So, are you affraid? or are you gonna let others see how your claims stand against someone who will read the same topic.

  • @utahpirateradio Please send your entry to:

    Children's Art Exhibit

    45 N. West Temple St.

    Salt Lake City, UT 84150, USA

    The following information and permission must be included:

  • debates in here are useless since they get sunk under many useless comments and the limit of 500 characters makes thing less exiting, not to worry about the fact that replies tend to appear in wrong places. seems to me that you are affraid to have a one on one debate without outsiders taking the discussion off the rails.

  • the law forbidding polygamy is unconstitutional and therefore the mormons did what the constitute gave them the freedom to do, but when the supreme court ruled unconstitutionally against the mormons plea, they submitted.

  • "the law forbidding polygamy is unconstitutional "

    Be that as it may, Mormons gave up polygamy to become a state.

    Before they gave up polygamy, they were considered to be in rebellion against the union.

    Nearly 50 years passed before Utah was allowed to become a state.

  • usually rebellion is quite different from disagreeing. you try to give people the picture that mkormons were violently opposing usa and were violent and so on.

  • "...By these Brethren we had a proclamation from President Buchannan (sic) to the Inhabitants of Utah read to us. It was so full of lies, and showed so much meanness, that it elicited three groans from the company."

    Excuse me idiot utahpirateradio, Utah Terriotory was not a state. Also, the only reason the Mormons went to the Utah territory was because USA mainstream "christians" musdered and abused them. So, I guess this also answers you question about Mountain Meadows.

  • "Excuse me idiot utahpirateradio, Utah Terriotory was not a state. '

    No, it was not a state. Just like Alaska and Hawaii were US territories before they became states.

    The Mormons never owned Utah. They just kicked the Native Americans out of the good parts, and started breaking US law, while in US territory.

    The US government had full right to enforce the law. Didn't they?

  • So I see, its ok to take land and kill people just as long as you are on the side that is lining it pocket with money. What a horrible little person you are! You should be assamed of yourself!

  • "So I see, its ok to take land and kill people just as long as you are on the side that is lining it pocket with money. "

    No. I think my Mormon ancestors were clearly in the wrong when they relocated the indians from their lands.

  • Ahhh not answering the questions I see!

    Your talking about your stealing murderous ancestors!

  • "Your talking about your stealing murderous ancestors! "

    The Mormons? Well yes. My ancestors are Mormons. And Mormons were murderous theives back in the 1800s. I mean look at the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

    But no, my ancestors were farmers.  They didn't kill anyone.