so.... because C.H. Spurgeon abhors aspects of the gospel he cannot understand, we must bow to Calvin?
"For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." Luke 10:24
this must have been meant for those 'blessed' to be born after Calvin's teachings enlightened the world......
@Celestiaetterra they don't think they can help it. Its a doctrine of demons, like counterfeit money, very similar to the original in many areas, in order to deceive, and its a pain in the butt to untangle the many knots in their warped thinking. But with God, all things are possible....
From the actual Genevan sources: It is false that Geneva was part of the Holy Roman Empire (HRE) at the time of Servetus' trial, having severed ties in 1285 A.D. It then belonged to the protectorate of Savoy, until 1533, when it became an indepedent city state with its own legal code and confession of faith. The Justinian Codex, not even in use in Geneva at the time, states that heresy was punishable by expulsion, not death.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You fail to see the influence of the Roman Catholic Church at the time; the Vatican ruled Europe, and it overruled things when it wanted to do so. Your evidence proves nothing.
@Calvinist007 What??? The Catholic Church was BANNED from Geneva when it became an independent protestant republic in 1535! The Catholic Church had no influence in Geneva whatsoever!
@Calvinist007 Yes, he was. The fact is: The Catholic Church had zero influence in Geneva after 1535. This means that Calvin was not FORCED to co-operate with anyone, least of all the Catholic Inquisition.
@Calvinist007 Yes he was. And yet he was burnt to death in protestant Geneva. Which further indicates that the catholic church had no power whatsoever in Geneva in 1553.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones What? Are you kidding me? You just admitted that Servetus was prosecuted by the Vatican while saying that the Vatican had no influence in Geneva at the time? Are you serious?
@Calvinist007 Yes, the Vatican prosecuted him. No, the Vatican did not have any influence in the independent city state of Geneva since 1535. Yes, Calvin sent Servetus' work to Catholic France so the Catholic Inquisition, which did have influence there, could take care of him. I advise you to read up on the history of Geneva. It was devoid of catholic influence ever since it became independent.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You are a JOKE, man; you're saying that a prosecuting attorney has no influence in the courtroom in which he's arguing a case? LOLOLOL!!!!!!! I advise you to read this: "I have had great difficulty in obtaining what I send you from Monsieur Calvin..... It seems to him that his duty is to convict heresies by doctrine rather than pursue them by such a means, since he does not hold the sword of justice."--Guillaume de Trie, 3/26/1553
@Calvinist007 Are you saying that the trial in Geneva was held under catholic supervision? Are you saying that during Calvin's reign of Geneva the Catholic Inquisition actually held power there?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I'm saying that Servetus was prosecuted by Roman Catholic authorities, which means they held the driving influence in the case, you IDIOT; LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!
@Calvinist007 That doesn't make sense. You're basically saying that even while Geneva was a protestant city state where catholicism was actually banned, the Inquisition somehow managed to creep into the city and prosecute Servetus on behalf of the Catholic Church... in front of Calvin.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Don't try to obfuscate the issue, man; they PROSECUTED the man, that is INFLUENCE. The Vatican ruled Europe for centuries, and they had the power of the purse; they were the driving force that got Servetus executed. Get it right, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
@Calvinist007 ... They had no 'driving force' whatsoever in Geneva, nor in other Swiss cities such as Basel. In Geneva, protestantism was the norm, with Calvin as the undisputed leader.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Forget it man, you HAVE LOST. Any prosecuting attorney in any courtroom has influence, and is the driving force behind the case. You are PATHETIC.
@Calvinist007 Wait: so now you're basically saying that the influence of catholicism was so intense, that even in the protestant city state of Geneva, where catholicism had been banned for almost 20 years, it was catholicism that actually killed Servetus?
@Calvinist007 I see. Calvin had nothing to do with Servetus' death. The Catholic Church burnt Servetus at the stake. This pretty much is the most far-fetched bit of apologia I have yet heard from a calvinist.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Calvin could be cruel to opponents, and he did not hesitate to persecute them, but there is NOTHING [emphasis mine] to suggest that he actively sought to kill them."--Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, Calvin, pg. 217
"Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, Calvin, pg. 220
@Calvinist007 I would be afraid if the historic record would show that Geneva, at the time of Calvin's reign, indeed still somehow was 'catholic territory'. It would definitely boggle the mind.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones He was prosecuted by Vatican authorities; in case you didn't know, the prosecuting attorney holds a pretty strong influence. You are a JOKE; LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!
@Calvinist007 I see. So protestant Geneva, where catholicism was banned, still paid attention to the orders of the catholic church? You know: according to that same Inquisition, Calvin, Melanchton, and all the others were heretics as well. Would Calvin have prosecuted himself in Geneva since the Catholic church called him a heretic?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Whoever said that Servetus' trial was part of the Inquisition? Your historical ignorance is superseded only by your oversimplification of events; LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!
@Calvinist007 No, you're stating that somehow the Catholic Church had influence in Geneva during Calvin's reign. Whereas the historical record shows that Geneva had been catholicism in 1535.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Your oversimplification of events can't help you; that may have been true, but the Vatican had the power of the purse behind it, and it didn't mind exercising that when it suited its needs. It hated Servetus more than anybody else undoubtedly, and it was the driving force behind his death.
@Calvinist007 Oversimplification would be claiming that in a rabidly protestant city as Geneva, where catholicism had been literally outlawed since 1535, the catholic church somehow would still have to power to pass the death sentence on man almost 20 years later, under the nose of Calvin.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, oversimplication means that you can't see past what is on paper, man; the Vatican had MONEY behind it. And no, those Roman Catholic prosecutors didn't condemn Servetus, the Genevan Small Council did that; get it right, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
@Calvinist007 Paper... interesting. Surely you have evidence for this claim of catholic immersion in Geneva's business? Actually, the reason Calvin sent Servetus' work to Matthieu Ory, was BECAUSE he wanted the catholic inquisition to take care of the issue. When Servetus wound up in Geneva, Calvin didn't need to ask for help from the catholic authorities. He WAS the sole authority.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Wrong, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS: "I have had great difficulty in obtaining what I send you from Monsieur Calvin..... It seems to him that his duty is to convict heresies by doctrine rather than pursue them by such a means, since he does not hold the sword of justice."--Guillaume de Trie, 3/26/1553, letter to his cousin Matthieu Ory, Inquisitor General of the Faith Calvin was FORCED to surrender those materials.
@Calvinist007 Pray tell... how could the CATHOLIC INQUISITION, which held NO POWER whatsoever in Geneva in 1553, FORCE Calvin to send them Servetus' work? Calvin sent it because he WANTED to send it, not because he was FORCED to send it.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I didn't say that Servetus' prosecution was part of the Roman Catholic Inquisition, and you understand NOTHING of historical context; heresy was a CAPITAL OFFENSE then, the most serious of charges. Calvin could have risked his whole ministry if he had not cooperated.
@Calvinist007 Pray tell... how could the CATHOLIC INQUISITION, which held NO POWER whatsoever in Geneva in 1553, FORCE Calvin to send them Servetus' work? Calvin sent it because he WANTED to send it, not because he was FORCED to send it.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Let us give [Calvin] credit for this comparative moderation in a semi-barbarous age when not only hosts of heretics, but even innocent women, as witches, were cruelly tortured and roasted to death. .... If he was mistaken, if he misunderstood the real opinions of Servetus, that was an error of judgment, and an error which all the Catholics and Protestants of that age shared."--Dr. Philip Schaff, "History of the Christian Church", Vol. 8, ch. 16, sec. 137
@Calvinist007 Pray tell... how could the CATHOLIC INQUISITION, which held NO POWER whatsoever in Geneva in 1553, FORCE Calvin to send them Servetus' work? Calvin sent it because he WANTED to send it, not because he was FORCED to send it
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Servetus suffered the penalty due to his heresies, but was it by my will? Certainly his arrogance destroyed him not less than his impiety. And what crime was it of mine if our Council, at my exhortation, indeed, but in conformity with the opinion of several Churches, took vengeance on his execrable blasphemies?"--Calvin, 1562 HISTORICAL CONTEXT, man; HISTORICAL CONTEXT. Either learn what that means or SHUT UP.
@Calvinist007 Pray tell... how could the CATHOLIC INQUISITION, which held NO POWER whatsoever in Geneva in 1553, FORCE Calvin to send them Servetus' work? Calvin sent it because he WANTED to send it, not because he was FORCED to send it
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones God will defend John Calvin from your wicked false accusation of murder, for it is written (Isa. 54:17, NASB), '"No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their vindication is from Me," declares the LORD.'
@Calvinist007 Just answer my question... Pray tell... how could the CATHOLIC INQUISITION, which held NO POWER whatsoever in Geneva in 1553, FORCE Calvin to send them Servetus' work? Calvin sent it because he WANTED to send it, not because he was FORCED to send it.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS, the Roman Catholic Church had the power of the purse behind it; whenever that situation exists, power exists. Servetus was prosecuted by Roman Catholic authorities for a CAPITAL offense: heresy; if Calvin had not cooperated with that investigation he could have put his entire family and ministry at risk. Heresy was a VERY serious charge then; what do you think might happen to me if I refused to cooperate with an FBI terrorism investigation?
@Calvinist007 Ignoramus? Once more: the Catholic Church had no power or influence whatsoever in the Protestant Republic of Geneva. Read William Naphy: Calvin and the Consolidation of the Genevan Reformation. Catholicism was even BANNED from the city ever since 1535... that's well before the trial of Servetus.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, you little HISTORICALLY IGNORANT LYING WRETCH, John Calvin was not a citizen of Geneva until 1559, five years before his death, six years AFTER Servetus' execution. Servetus was prosecuted by ROMAN CATHOLIC authorities as instruments of the Geneva goverment; Calvin held NO governmental authority in that matter, you lousy FALSE ACCUSER. "Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Yale Divinity School, "Calvin", pg. 220
@Calvinist007 Will you just read for a second here: THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAD ZERO INFLUENCE IN GENEVA BY THE TIME SERVETUS REACHED THE CITY - IT HAD IN FACT NOT HAD ANY POWER THERE SINCE 1535. The GENEVA GOVERNMENT was in NO WAY subjected to the CATHOLIC CHURCH in any way shape or form by the time Servetus was tried and killed. Seriously: READ UP ON GENEVAN HISTORY... For crying out loud.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "On April 4, 1553, Servetus was arrested by the Roman Catholic authorities, and imprisoned in Vienne. He escaped from prison three days later. On June 17, he was convicted of heresy by the French inquisition, and sentenced to be burned with his books."--"New World Encyclopedia" This led to Servetus' execution. Either get an education or SHUT YOUR LYING FACE, for crying out loud, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Listen up, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS; you may learn something. Servetus was prosecuted by Roman Catholic authorities in his Geneva trial, and was sentenced by the Small Council; Calvin held NO governmental authority there during all of that, and he advocated for a more humane form of execution once they had decided to kill him. Also, Calvin tried to persuade Servetus to recant his heresies in an attempt to save his life. Either get an education or SHUT UP; LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!
@Calvinist007 Sigh... One more time: The CATHOLIC CHURCH, AND THEREFORE THE CATHOLIC INQUISITION HAD NO POWER WHATSOEVER IN GENEVA AFTER IT BECAME A PROTESTANT REPUBLIC IN 1535. According to your logic, Calvin would have burnt HIMSELF to death for being a heretic.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Sigh...one more time, you little DISHONEST PUNK: "As Servetus was not a citizen of Geneva, and legally could at worst be banished, they had consulted with other Swiss cantons (Zurich, Bern, Basel, Schaffhausen), which universally favored his condemnation and execution."--"New World Encyclopedia", "Michael Servetus" Servetus was hated by just about everyone, and his trial was an outgrowth of his original arrest by the Roman Catholic Church; the others joined in on it.
@Calvinist007 ... the OTHER SWISS CANTONS WERE ALL PROTESTANT!!!!!!!!!! The CATHOLIC CHURCH HAD NO INFLUENCE IN THOSE CANTONS. For crying out loud man. You know NOTHING of periodical Swiss history, nothing of contemporary Genevan history and nothing of church history..
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Oh, please; YOU know NOTHING of substance on this subject; for crying out loud, Servetus was prosecuted by Roman Catholic authorities: "On 4 April 1553 Servetus was arrested by Roman Catholic authorities, and imprisoned in Vienne. He escaped from prison three days later. On 17 June, he was convicted of heresy by the French Inquisition...."--"Wikipedia", "Michael Servetus" His Geneva trial was a continuation of this original arrest; either get an education or SHUT UP.
@Calvinist007 And who else did the CATHOLIC CHURCH deem heretics? Calvin, Bullinger, Oecolampadius, Bucer, Beza and the entire Reformed clergy of the Swiss cantons. Pray tell: why didn't these slavish pope-obeying reformers not carry out their own execution, as they were deemed just as much heretics as was Servetus? And Wikipedia really does not impress me. I go for the primary original sources.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Forget it, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS; your pretentious arrogance can't help you: "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church. Calvin's conduct can also be explained, more prosaically, by his fear of a popish plot aimed at destabilizing his position in Geneva. Thus Servetus was treated by both sides as a sort of double agent that neither camp recognized as one of its own."--Bernard Cottret, "Calvin", pgs. 220, 221 Pray tell: can you read? Keep embarrassing yourself.
@Calvinist007 Your loud-mouthed approach does in no way negate the fact that you are completely ignorant of church history, Swiss history and Genevan history. Calvin was in no way obligated to 'act out' the will of the Catholic Inquisition... He didn't need that incentive either, as it was Calvin who had tried to frame Servetus by sending incriminating letters to France in 1553. Calvin killed Servetus because Calvin WANTED to kill Servetus. Over to you...
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Your DISHONEST and COWARDLY approach does not negate in any way that you are a LYING FALSE ACCUSER, PUNK. "Calvin’s course in the tragedy of Servetus was fully approved by the best men in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. .... ...all Christians were happily agreed in maintaining the rightfulness of the death penalty for obstinate heretics, as murderers of souls."--Dr. Philip Schaff, "History of the Christian Church", Vol. 8, ch. 16, sec. 137 Over to you...
@Calvinist007 LOL... keep ragin'. Not all christians were 'happily agreed' at all. In fact, one of them, Sebastian Castellio, called Calvin out on his inquisition-esque behavior and pure bloodlust. Also, Schaff is a calvinist apologist, I don't take his work on this matter seriously at all. And again: in Geneva, the penalty for blasphemy/heresy was banishment, not death. CALVIN urged for the death penalty.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You are NOT a church historian, PUNK; Dr. Philip Schaff was, maybe the best one of them all. Castellio was opposed to Calvin; he is not an objective source. And no, Calvin did NOT urge for the death penalty, LIAR: "I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed on him; but I desired that the severity of the punishment be mitigated."--Calvin to William Farel, August 20, 1553 The more you post the more you bury yourself, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS; LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!
@Calvinist007 Oh right... instead of death by fire, death by beheading.. what a humane man Calvin was being here. And no, Schaff was not brilliant. Schaff was a biased Calvinist. For a non-biased take on Calvin's influence in Geneva I again refer to William Naphy: "Calvin and the Consolidation of the Genevan Reformation". And why do you think Castellio was opposed to Calvin? Because Castellio rightfully saw that Calvin was becoming the self-proclaimed pope of protestantism.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Oh, right...your ignorance of the historical acumen of Dr. Schaff shows just how UNLEARNED you really are. Castellio was opposed to Calvin because Castellio was a moral degenerate just like YOU. What does a YALE CHURCH HISTORIAN say, PUNK? "Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, "Calvin", pg. 220 What part of that don't you get, IDIOT?
@Calvinist007 Yawn.. back again with Gordon? That's all you have? Do I really have to cite Calvin's own words again? And once more: in Geneva, per the town charter, heresy was NOT a capital offense. Again. Read up on Genevan history.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes, back again with Dr. Gordon, because this YALE CHURCH HISTORIAN says YOU'RE WRONG, you arrogant HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK. "Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, "Calvin", pg. 220 This CHURCH HISTORIAN absolves Calvin here, he says YOU ARE WRONG; LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!! You can whine and can gripe about it all you want to do, but you HAVE LOST.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You continue to accuse God's elect falsely; you will fail, for IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and for His glory, I now both plead and claim all the Scriptures against you and the DEVIL who is motivating you and both plead and claim His shed Blood on the Mercy Seat of יְהֹוָה in Heaven against you and the DEVIL who is motivating you to the effects that both of you shall be bound, shall be rebuked, and shall be defeated, all as it does please the Lord Jesus Christ.
@Calvinist007 Oh please. You really think I am impressed by the pseudo-sanctified babble of a foul-mouthed historical revisionist? Take your holier-than-thou bs elsewhere, please. The fish ain't bitin'..
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Oh, please. You really think you can accuse God's elect falsely without paying for it? What saith the Scriptures? Psa. 31:18 (KJV): "Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous." Rom. 8:34 (KJV): "Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."
@Calvinist007 Righteous? Calvin wasn't righteous with regard to Servetus. So your point is utterly invalid here. Also: I know it is a tried-and-true tactic of the defeated Calvinist historical revisionist to hide himself behind the bible, this, too, does not negate the bare historical truth: Calvin wanted Servetus dead, and in the end, he got his way. Period.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, "Calvin", pg. 220 This CHURCH HISTORIAN absolves Calvin here, so your point is utterly invalid here, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK. The Bible is the Sword of the Spirit, and it is the Means of your defeat, you WRETCH. Dr. Gordon refutes your HELLISH LIE, and there's no way out of it. Period. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!
@Calvinist007 Again...heresy was NOT a capital offense in Geneva. Please, before you start capslockin' and lolling away, check the sources. The punishment for heresy in Geneva was banishment, not death. And what did Calvin say? If he had any power in Geneva, HE, i.e. Calvin, would not let him get out alive. And lo and behold, Servetus comes to Geneva and is swiftly burnt to death... Because of theTown's Legal Code? No, for he would have been banished then. Then why? Because of Calvin.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK, what does a YALE CHURCH HISTORIAN say about heresy in the Servetus trial? "Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, "Calvin", pg. 220 This CHURCH HISTORIAN says YOU ARE WRONG; LOLOLOL!!!!!!! You can whine and can gripe about it all you want to do, but you HAVE LOST. John Calvin did NOT murder Michael Servetus, LIAR.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK, you are NOT a church historian; Dr. Gordon is, and he says that heresy was a capital offense in the Servetus trial. Want to try again?
@Calvinist007 I don't have to 'try'. The evidence is there. Even on the internet. According to the Geneva Town Charter, the punishment for heresy was banishment, not death. Just google it if you are too lazy to open a book.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes, the evidence is there, and it condemns you, LIAR: "Servetus recently came to Geneva to take advantage of the rancor felt toward Calvin by the government."--Wolfgang Musculus, 9/28/1553, letter to Heinrich Bullinger "For his own pleasure [he] wants to make me rot here in prison."--Michael Servetus, 9/15/1553, petition to the Small Council of Geneva, the body that condemned him to death Even Servetus admitted Calvin didn't want him dead. Try again, PUNK.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Here's Calvin, PUNK: "I simply protested...that I had never pursued any personal grudge against [Servetus].... .... Then afterwards...I prayed him rather to think of begging mercy of God.... I prayed him to devote his efforts to asking pardon of the Son of God.... Seeing that I gained nothing by exhortations...I withdrew from a self-condemned heretic...."--Bernard Cottret, "Calvin", pgs. 224-225 That's Calvin, LIAR; either get an education or SHUT YOUR LYING FACE.
@Calvinist007 Oh is that Calvin? I have some more Calvin for you:
- "If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."
- "I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed upon him."
- "Do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones The first quote is invalid; what people say and what people do are two different things. You didn't give the rest of the second quote, LIAR: "I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed on him; but I desired that the severity of the punishment be mitigated." The third quote is suspect; Dr. Jules Bonnet, in "Letters of John Calvin, Vol. 4, pgs. 434-438, argues that it is a forgery. YOU LOSE AGAIN; LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!
@Calvinist007 This is your rebuttal? 1.) Calvin wrote and did the same things. He actually used his influence to have Servetus killed for a crime that legally and technically was only punishable by banishment. 2.) The remainder of the quote is irrelevant as Calvin sought to only seek a milder form of capital punishment... it remains capital, nonetheless. 3.) Thoroughly and long since rebuked by scholars. You want to try again?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Calvin could be cruel to opponents, and he did not hesitate to persecute them, but there is NOTHING [emphasis mine] to suggest that he actively sought to kill them. Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, Calvin, pgs. 217, 220 YOU LOSE; you want to try again, LIAR?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, what does the evidence show? "I have had great difficulty in obtaining what I send you from Monsieur Calvin..... It seems to him that his duty is to convict heresies by doctrine rather than pursue them by such a means, since he does not hold the sword of justice."--Guillaume de Trie, 3/26/1553, letter to his cousin Matthieu Ory, Inquisitor General of the Faith You HELLISH LIAR, John Calvin did NOT murder Michael Servetus; either get an education or SHUT YOUR FACE.
@Calvinist007 ROFL... you're back at this again? You're getting desperate. Calvin was in no way obliged to take commands from either de Trie, or, as you so ferociously keep claiming, the Vatican. The letters were sent to the French Inquisition because Calvin hoped that way the papists would get rid of Servetus.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, YOU are the one who's desperate, you LIAR; the evidence condemns you. No, Calvin was forced into a LEGAL INVESTIGATION by one who held govermental authority. Get it right, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Calvin was forced by the LEGAL ENTITY that was conducting the INVESTIGATION of a CAPITAL offense, IDIOT; do you get that? Try some honesty for a change. While you're at it, get a spine and admit that YOU ARE WRONG.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, YOU don't have a clue, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK; the legal entity that forced Calvin to send the material was the Roman Catholic prosecution, which was an INSTRUMENT of the Geneva government in that investigation. Get it right, LIAR.
@Calvinist007 Dear Calvinist007... The Geneva Government in 1553 was completely free of each and every Catholic influence, as the Genevan government had banned Catholicism since 1535. Really, you should actually do some research before you plunge feet first into debates that are about matters you have barely an understanding.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Dear LIAR...what does an ACADEMIC AUTHORITY say? "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church."--Bernard Cottret, founding chairman of the Department of Humanities at Versailles-Saint-Quentin University, "Calvin", pg. 220, 221 Your spineless arrogance can't help you; you HAVE LOST this point and you HAVE LOST this debate, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK; LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!
@Calvinist007 Yes, Servetus was prosecuted by the Catholic Church. He was even sentenced to death by the Catholic Church. Yet, he escaped. To where? Geneva, where he knew the punishment for heresy was banishment. The Catholic Church had no power whatsoever in Geneva. Do the math.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I'm glad to see that you have ADMITTED that you HAVE LOST the point that Servetus was prosecuted by the Roman Catholic Church. You have NO IDEA WHY Servetus went to Geneva, and until you do SHUT UP, you LIAR. Do the math.
@Calvinist007 I never denied that Servetus was not prosecuted by the Catholic Church. Show me one bit of evidence where I state that Servetus was never prosecuted by the Catholic Church. The point is: Servetus managed to ESCAPE France, and thus the clutches of the Catholic Inquisition. What about this don't you understand?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Oh, please, you LITTLE SPINELESS COWARD; all through this particular point of the debate you have tried to deny the fact that Servetus was prosecuted by the Roman Catholic Church; DON'T LIE. When you were DEFEATED soundly on that point, you RAN FOR COVER like the little WORM that you are. What part of THAT don't you understand, you LYING FALSE-ACCUSING PUNK?
@Calvinist007 You really are something... I have even incriminated Calvin by stating it was he who sent the documents to the French Inquisition... Why would I state that? Because the Catholic Church had NOT prosecuted Servet??? Really.. for a minute, use your common sense here... The point is: in GENEVA, Servetus was not prosecuted by the CATHOLIC CHURCH but by Calvin and the Geneva Town Council, which was PROTESTANT. I mean, seriously... use your brain.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, YOU are really WICKED and EVIL, you LIAR. What part of this quote don't you get, you IDIOT? "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church. Calvin's conduct can also be explained, more prosaically, by his fear of a popish plot aimed at destabilizing his position in Geneva. Thus Servetus was treated by both sides as a sort of double agent that neither camp recognized as one of its own."--Bernard Cottret, "Calvin", pgs. 220, 221 YOU LOSE. AGAIN. LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!
@Calvinist007 Dear Calvinist... will you please look at my comments directly below the video. What exactly am I saying there in the few posts left there a month ago? Now, as you call me a liar, back this up by demonstrating that in my comments I have denied that the Catholic Church had prosecuted Servetus. If I haven't you are bearing false witness.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Dear LIAR...don't you DARE to try to deny that you were denying all along that the Roman Catholic Church prosecuted Servetus; it's there for all to see, you SPINELESS COWARD. Get some character.
@Calvinist007 Dear calvinist... either provide the evidence that I denied the Roman Church ever prosecuted Servetus, or apologize. You are now bearing false witness. But I guess the commandments don't count when you're one of the elect.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Forget it, PUNK; your linguistic prestidigitation can't help you. The evidence is on this thread for all to see; you LOST the point, you LOST the debate. Get a spine. For a change.
@Calvinist007 The comments indeed are for all to see. And this is what they will get from them: Servetus was prosecuted by the Roman Catholic Church - thanks to Calvin sending personal correspondence to France in 1553 - and sentenced to death. Servetus escaped and fled to Geneva, where he was prosecuted again... by Calvin's cronies, and sentenced to death in a city where Catholicism had no influence whatsoever. Thanks.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Forget it, PUNK; you are a JOKE. What does an ACADEMIC AUTHORITY say about the matter? "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church. Calvin's conduct can also be explained, more prosaically, by his fear of a popish plot aimed at destabilizing his position in Geneva. Thus Servetus was treated by both sides as a sort of double agent that neither camp recognized as one of its own."--Bernard Cottret, "Calvin", pgs. 220, 221 YOU LOSE. ONCE AGAIN. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "I have had great difficulty in obtaining what I send you from Monsieur Calvin..... It seems to him that his duty is to convict heresies by doctrine rather than pursue them by such a means, since he does not hold the sword of justice."--Guillaume de Trie, 3/26/1553 "Servetus recently came to Geneva to take advantage of the rancor felt toward Calvin by the government."--Wolfgang Musculus, 9/28/1553 The evidence has condemned you, LIAR; be a man and admit it. For a change.
@Calvinist007 Are you going to regurgitate all these tired and rebutted verses again? Cool with me, I'll just keep rebuttin'... Exactly under what obligation was Calvin to listen to de Trie? None. Calvin willed the documents to wind up in the hands of Catholic France.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Wrong, PUNK; Calvin was forced into that investigation by the LEGAL INVESTIGATIVE ENTITY that was involved with Servetus' prosecution. People who crossed folks like that back then suffered horrible consequences, up to and including death.
@Calvinist007 Again... one more time... the legal investigative entity that prosecured Servetus, before Servetus came to Geneva, was the Catholic Inquisition. The Catholic Inquisition had, since 1535, no power whatsoever in Geneva, as Geneva had oulawed Catholicism wholesale. So: you are claiming Calvin was following orders from the Catholic Church, while he was in protestant Geneva, as a protestant reformer. Again: no compute.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again...one more time...you IDIOT, the Roman Catholic Church prosecuted Servetus originally, and the Protestant Reformers joined in on it because he was a heretic. Get it right, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
@Calvinist007 ... No no no... you said Calvin was OBLIGED to co-operate. He was not. The Catholic Inquisition had no influence in the Swiss reformed cantons. Calvin sent the letters because he WANTED to send the letters, not because he HAD to. What, you're going to say that if the Inquisition had asked for Calvin's delivery, Calvin would have gone?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones ...Yes, yes, yes...I said that Calvin was FORCED to cooperate, and I was right. That LEGAL INVESTIGATION compelled him to do so, heresy was a CAPITAL offense then--just as murder is now. The inquisitor's cousin knew Calvin had that material, and he pushed Calvin to surrender it, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
@Calvinist007 No, no, no... The Inquisition had NO POWER whatsoever to command Calvin to deliver them anything... Calvin sent it because he knew it would get Servetus in trouble.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes, yes, yes...HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS; the Roman Catholic Chruch was prosecuting Servetus, and the legal body responsible for that held much weight at any time--especially if it had a lot of money, as the Vatican did then. Either get an education or SHUT UP.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones First of all, IDIOT, "to actually get" is a split infinitive, a grammatical violation. Secondly, uh, huh, but it DID have power to do what the Geneva government allowed to it: the prosecution of Servetus. Get it right, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Oh, please; I pointed out your incorrect grammar to show that not only are you UNLEARNED historically, you are UNEDUCATED grammatically, you LOUSE.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yeah, right, you LIAR; just because you say it falsely doesn't make it so. You LITTLE WHIPPED CUR, you HAVE LOST this debate horribly and no amount of bravado can save you now; you are HISTORY, there is NO ESCAPE. The FEAR and ANXIETY are overtaking you even now, undoubtedly, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK.
@Calvinist007 Fear? I would be very scared indeed if I was adament in believing the Catholic Church had any influence whatsoever in Geneva come 1553. V is for Victory.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones What part of this don't you get, IDIOT? "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church. Calvin's conduct can also be explained, more prosaically, by his fear of a popish plot aimed at destabilizing his position in Geneva. Thus Servetus was treated by both sides as a sort of double agent that neither camp recognized as one of its own."--Bernard Cottret, founding chairman of the Department of Humanities at Versailles-Saint-Quentin University, "Calvin", pgs. 220, 221
@Calvinist007 You can keep regurgitating those tired old verses. The fact remains: Calvin was in no way FORCED to hand over ANYTHING to the Catholic Inquisition... he did so because he WANTED to, out of sheer hatred towards Servetus.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Wrong, you WRETCHED LIAR; what does the evidence say? "I have had great difficulty in obtaining what I send you from Monsieur Calvin..... It seems to him that his duty is to convict heresies by doctrine rather than pursue them by such a means, since he does not hold the sword of justice."--Guillaume de Trie, 3/26/1553, letter to his cousin Matthieu Ory, Inquisitor General of the Faith YOU LOSE. AGAIN. AND AGAIN. AND AGAIN. LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church. Calvin's conduct can also be explained, more prosaically, by his fear of a popish plot aimed at destabilizing his position in Geneva. Thus Servetus was treated by both sides as a sort of double agent that neither camp recognized as one of its own."--Bernard Cottret, "Calvin", pgs. 220, 221 Calvin was NOT a pawn of the Vatican, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
@Calvinist007 Don't back pedal now... You said Calvin was FORCED to co-operate. I asked by whom. You said: the investigative entity, which was, before Servetus came to Geneva, the Catholic Inquisition. You are basically stating that Calvin was forced by the Catholic Church to surrender documents damning to Servetus, while Catholicism itself had been outlawed in Geneva in 1535 and had no power there whatsoever. Right?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, YOU are the one who is backpedaling, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS; the Roman Catholic authorities were prosecuting Servetus, and the inquisitor's cousin, a friend of Calvin, knew Calvin had that material and pushed Calvin to surrender it. You HAVE LOST; put up the white flag while you have some semblance of credibility and dignity left, PUNK.
@Calvinist007 I will as soon as you convince me the Catholic Inquisition actually had power in a Protestant City-Republic that had outlawed Catholicism in 1535.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I never said that Servetus' trial was part of the Roman Catholic Inquisition, PUNK; YOU said that. The Vatican had arrested Servetus originally, and his Geneva trial was a continuation of THAT; the Protestant authorities joined in on it because Servetus was a heretic. Get it right, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!! YOU are the one who is backpedaling, you LIAR; you don't have enough of a spine to admit that you're wrong, you're trying "to do a dance" to avoid that, COWARD.
@Calvinist007 Wrong about what? Sure: as soon as you can provide the evidence that the Catholic Church had any influence in Geneva come 1553, I will prove in public I was wrong.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You were WRONG about Servetus' prosecution, and you are WRONG about the historical context of that day, PUNK; the Vatican prosecuted Servetus, and anyone who did not cooperate with that LEGAL INVESTIGATION did so at their peril. Either get an education or SHUT UP.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!! Again, you LIAR; just because you say it falsely doesn't make it so. You LITTLE WHIPPED WORM, you HAVE LOST this debate horribly and no amount of bravado can save you now; you are HISTORY, there is NO ESCAPE. The FEAR and ANXIETY are overtaking you even now, undoubtedly, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK. You HAVE LOST, you SPINELESS COWARD. Get lost, take a hike.
@Calvinist007 No, I'm pretty sure I have won this debate. Many times over. And those reading both our posts will do the same, if they are not as zealously clinging on to their holy, spotless saint as you are.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, you're pretty sure that you HAVE LOST this debate and that you're too SPINELESS to admit it, PUNK. Anyone who reads this debate knows who has been WHIIPPED badly, and that's YOU; LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are a PATHETIC JOKE.
@Calvinist007 The day I will be whipped by someone who proclaims the Catholic Church had influence over Calvin in Geneva in 1553 is the day I myself will convert to calvinism.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Calvin could be cruel to opponents, and he did not hesitate to persecute them, but there is NOTHING [emphasis mine] to suggest that he actively sought to kill them. Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, Calvin, pgs. 217, 220 This YALE UNIVERSITY CHURCH HISTORIAN says you are WRONG; LOLOLOL!! Your denial of that FACT doesn't change it, COWARD.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones It is written (II Tim. 1:7), οὐ γὰρ ἔδωκεν ἡμῖν ὁ θεὸς πνεῦμα δειλίας ἀλλὰ δυνάμεως καὶ ἀγάπης καὶ σωφρονισμοῦ--"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." It is written again (I Jn. 4:4), ὑμεῖς ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐστε, τεκνία, καὶ νενικήκατε αὐτοὺς, ὅτι μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ--"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You want to talk about victory, you WRETCH? What saith the Scriptures? Rom. 8:31, 33-34 (KJV): "What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Calvin could be cruel to opponents, and he did not hesitate to persecute them, but there is NOTHING [emphasis mine] to suggest that he actively sought to kill them. Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, Calvin, pgs. 217, 220 This YALE UNIVERSITY CHURCH HISTORIAN says you are WRONG; LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Servetus recently came to Geneva to take advantage of the rancor felt toward Calvin by the government."--Wolfgang Musculus, 9/28/1553, letter to Heinrich Bullinger "For his own pleasure [he] wants to make me rot here in prison."--Michael Servetus, 9/15/1553, petition to the Small Council of Geneva, the body that condemned him to death Calvin had fallen out of favor with the Genevan government, and Servetus admitted that Calvin did NOT want him dead, you LIAR.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "If [Calvin] was mistaken...that was an error of judgment...which all the Catholics and Protestants of that age shared. Nor should it be overlooked that Servetus was convicted of falsehood, that he overwhelmed Calvin with abuse, and that he made common cause with the Libertines, the bitter enemies of Calvin, who had a controlling influence in the Council of Geneva at that time, and hoped to overthrow him."--Schaff, "History of the Christian Church", Vol. 8, ch. 16, sec. 137
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I really don't CARE what your opinion is of Dr. Philip Schaff; he was a great church historian, maybe the best of all time. Either get an education or SHUT YOUR HISTORICALLY IGNORANT FACE.
@Calvinist007 Schaff is biased and outdated. I suggest you read William Naphy's far more historically accurate "Calvin and the Consolidation of the Genevan Reformation". For one, you'll see that the 'Libertines' never even existed.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones People become angry when they are embarrassed; God has allowed me to embarrass you horribly in this debate, and your anger is evident. Get a spine. For a change.
@Calvinist007 Angry? I'm not angry. I am amused. Here is someone who boldly proclaims I have denied that the Catholic Church prosecuted Servetus, whereas comments rights below this video, left over a month ago, show that I have never done such a thing. I find that rather hilarious.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes, you're angry because you're embarrassed, and no amount of linguistic legerdemain can help you now, you little SPINELESS COWARD. You know perfectly well that you have done your dead-level best to deny that Michael Servetus was prosecuted by Roman Catholic authorities, if only in spirit. Get a spine, you little DISHONEST PUNK. Be a man. For a change.
@Calvinist007 I would be angry if I was anywhere ignorant enough to believe Servetus would flee France if he was not, indeed, prosecuted by the Catholic Church.
How do you know for certain your saved? I am serious please feel free to email me at chaplain_frank@yahoo.com
rebelghostrider 1 week ago
bigfoot has a filthy nuts and feet like black people. Perhaps he is black man?
mrclitlips 2 weeks ago
so.... because C.H. Spurgeon abhors aspects of the gospel he cannot understand, we must bow to Calvin?
"For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." Luke 10:24
this must have been meant for those 'blessed' to be born after Calvin's teachings enlightened the world......
joejohnson043 3 months ago
I love it!
Gamolmann 4 months ago
The only problem I have with Calvinism is the way Calvinists behave - arrogant, prideful and ungodly and, no, I'm no Arminian.
Celestiaetterra 5 months ago
@Celestiaetterra they don't think they can help it. Its a doctrine of demons, like counterfeit money, very similar to the original in many areas, in order to deceive, and its a pain in the butt to untangle the many knots in their warped thinking. But with God, all things are possible....
joejohnson043 3 months ago
Paul was a calvinist
lowbattery34 5 months ago
@lowbattery34 lol
joejohnson043 3 months ago
what a dick
whochemist 5 months ago
From the actual Genevan sources: It is false that Geneva was part of the Holy Roman Empire (HRE) at the time of Servetus' trial, having severed ties in 1285 A.D. It then belonged to the protectorate of Savoy, until 1533, when it became an indepedent city state with its own legal code and confession of faith. The Justinian Codex, not even in use in Geneva at the time, states that heresy was punishable by expulsion, not death.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You fail to see the influence of the Roman Catholic Church at the time; the Vatican ruled Europe, and it overruled things when it wanted to do so. Your evidence proves nothing.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 What??? The Catholic Church was BANNED from Geneva when it became an independent protestant republic in 1535! The Catholic Church had no influence in Geneva whatsoever!
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You IDIOT, Servetus was prosecuted by Roman Catholic authorities! Now I KNOW you don't know what you're talking about.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 Yes, he was. The fact is: The Catholic Church had zero influence in Geneva after 1535. This means that Calvin was not FORCED to co-operate with anyone, least of all the Catholic Inquisition.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS, Servetus was prosecuted by ROMAN CATHOLIC AUTHORITIES; either get an education or SHUT UP.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 Yes he was. And yet he was burnt to death in protestant Geneva. Which further indicates that the catholic church had no power whatsoever in Geneva in 1553.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones What? Are you kidding me? You just admitted that Servetus was prosecuted by the Vatican while saying that the Vatican had no influence in Geneva at the time? Are you serious?
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 Yes, the Vatican prosecuted him. No, the Vatican did not have any influence in the independent city state of Geneva since 1535. Yes, Calvin sent Servetus' work to Catholic France so the Catholic Inquisition, which did have influence there, could take care of him. I advise you to read up on the history of Geneva. It was devoid of catholic influence ever since it became independent.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You are a JOKE, man; you're saying that a prosecuting attorney has no influence in the courtroom in which he's arguing a case? LOLOLOL!!!!!!! I advise you to read this: "I have had great difficulty in obtaining what I send you from Monsieur Calvin..... It seems to him that his duty is to convict heresies by doctrine rather than pursue them by such a means, since he does not hold the sword of justice."--Guillaume de Trie, 3/26/1553
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 Are you saying that the trial in Geneva was held under catholic supervision? Are you saying that during Calvin's reign of Geneva the Catholic Inquisition actually held power there?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I'm saying that Servetus was prosecuted by Roman Catholic authorities, which means they held the driving influence in the case, you IDIOT; LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 ... How could the Catholic authorities 'drive' the case to a culmination in a place - Geneva - where they had no authority?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Because they were prosecuting the case, you IDIOT; LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 That doesn't make sense. You're basically saying that even while Geneva was a protestant city state where catholicism was actually banned, the Inquisition somehow managed to creep into the city and prosecute Servetus on behalf of the Catholic Church... in front of Calvin.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Don't try to obfuscate the issue, man; they PROSECUTED the man, that is INFLUENCE. The Vatican ruled Europe for centuries, and they had the power of the purse; they were the driving force that got Servetus executed. Get it right, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 ... They had no 'driving force' whatsoever in Geneva, nor in other Swiss cities such as Basel. In Geneva, protestantism was the norm, with Calvin as the undisputed leader.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Forget it man, you HAVE LOST. Any prosecuting attorney in any courtroom has influence, and is the driving force behind the case. You are PATHETIC.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 Wait: so now you're basically saying that the influence of catholicism was so intense, that even in the protestant city state of Geneva, where catholicism had been banned for almost 20 years, it was catholicism that actually killed Servetus?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes, Servetus died because he crossed the Vatican; it's that simple.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 I see. Calvin had nothing to do with Servetus' death. The Catholic Church burnt Servetus at the stake. This pretty much is the most far-fetched bit of apologia I have yet heard from a calvinist.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Calvin could be cruel to opponents, and he did not hesitate to persecute them, but there is NOTHING [emphasis mine] to suggest that he actively sought to kill them."--Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, Calvin, pg. 217
"Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, Calvin, pg. 220
Read it and weep.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You're crumbling on the witness stand, you're scrambling now; YOU'RE AFRAID.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 I would be afraid if the historic record would show that Geneva, at the time of Calvin's reign, indeed still somehow was 'catholic territory'. It would definitely boggle the mind.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones He was prosecuted by Vatican authorities; in case you didn't know, the prosecuting attorney holds a pretty strong influence. You are a JOKE; LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 How could the Catholic Inquisition prosecute the case of Servetus in Geneva when they had no authority in Geneva?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Don't try to obfuscate the issue, man; they PROSECUTED the man, that is INFLUENCE.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 I see. So protestant Geneva, where catholicism was banned, still paid attention to the orders of the catholic church? You know: according to that same Inquisition, Calvin, Melanchton, and all the others were heretics as well. Would Calvin have prosecuted himself in Geneva since the Catholic church called him a heretic?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Whoever said that Servetus' trial was part of the Inquisition? Your historical ignorance is superseded only by your oversimplification of events; LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 No, you're stating that somehow the Catholic Church had influence in Geneva during Calvin's reign. Whereas the historical record shows that Geneva had been catholicism in 1535.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Your oversimplification of events can't help you; that may have been true, but the Vatican had the power of the purse behind it, and it didn't mind exercising that when it suited its needs. It hated Servetus more than anybody else undoubtedly, and it was the driving force behind his death.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 Oversimplification would be claiming that in a rabidly protestant city as Geneva, where catholicism had been literally outlawed since 1535, the catholic church somehow would still have to power to pass the death sentence on man almost 20 years later, under the nose of Calvin.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, oversimplication means that you can't see past what is on paper, man; the Vatican had MONEY behind it. And no, those Roman Catholic prosecutors didn't condemn Servetus, the Genevan Small Council did that; get it right, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 Paper... interesting. Surely you have evidence for this claim of catholic immersion in Geneva's business? Actually, the reason Calvin sent Servetus' work to Matthieu Ory, was BECAUSE he wanted the catholic inquisition to take care of the issue. When Servetus wound up in Geneva, Calvin didn't need to ask for help from the catholic authorities. He WAS the sole authority.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Wrong, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS: "I have had great difficulty in obtaining what I send you from Monsieur Calvin..... It seems to him that his duty is to convict heresies by doctrine rather than pursue them by such a means, since he does not hold the sword of justice."--Guillaume de Trie, 3/26/1553, letter to his cousin Matthieu Ory, Inquisitor General of the Faith Calvin was FORCED to surrender those materials.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 Pray tell... how could the CATHOLIC INQUISITION, which held NO POWER whatsoever in Geneva in 1553, FORCE Calvin to send them Servetus' work? Calvin sent it because he WANTED to send it, not because he was FORCED to send it.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I didn't say that Servetus' prosecution was part of the Roman Catholic Inquisition, and you understand NOTHING of historical context; heresy was a CAPITAL OFFENSE then, the most serious of charges. Calvin could have risked his whole ministry if he had not cooperated.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Calvinist007 Pray tell... how could the CATHOLIC INQUISITION, which held NO POWER whatsoever in Geneva in 1553, FORCE Calvin to send them Servetus' work? Calvin sent it because he WANTED to send it, not because he was FORCED to send it.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Let us give [Calvin] credit for this comparative moderation in a semi-barbarous age when not only hosts of heretics, but even innocent women, as witches, were cruelly tortured and roasted to death. .... If he was mistaken, if he misunderstood the real opinions of Servetus, that was an error of judgment, and an error which all the Catholics and Protestants of that age shared."--Dr. Philip Schaff, "History of the Christian Church", Vol. 8, ch. 16, sec. 137
Calvinist007 8 months ago
@Calvinist007 Irrelevant.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Wrong, it IS relevant; your ANXIETY and FEAR are evident. YOU'RE AFRAID.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Calvinist007 Pray tell... how could the CATHOLIC INQUISITION, which held NO POWER whatsoever in Geneva in 1553, FORCE Calvin to send them Servetus' work? Calvin sent it because he WANTED to send it, not because he was FORCED to send it
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Servetus suffered the penalty due to his heresies, but was it by my will? Certainly his arrogance destroyed him not less than his impiety. And what crime was it of mine if our Council, at my exhortation, indeed, but in conformity with the opinion of several Churches, took vengeance on his execrable blasphemies?"--Calvin, 1562 HISTORICAL CONTEXT, man; HISTORICAL CONTEXT. Either learn what that means or SHUT UP.
Calvinist007 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Calvinist007 Pray tell... how could the CATHOLIC INQUISITION, which held NO POWER whatsoever in Geneva in 1553, FORCE Calvin to send them Servetus' work? Calvin sent it because he WANTED to send it, not because he was FORCED to send it
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones God will defend John Calvin from your wicked false accusation of murder, for it is written (Isa. 54:17, NASB), '"No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their vindication is from Me," declares the LORD.'
Calvinist007 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Calvinist007 Just answer my question... Pray tell... how could the CATHOLIC INQUISITION, which held NO POWER whatsoever in Geneva in 1553, FORCE Calvin to send them Servetus' work? Calvin sent it because he WANTED to send it, not because he was FORCED to send it.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 8 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS, the Roman Catholic Church had the power of the purse behind it; whenever that situation exists, power exists. Servetus was prosecuted by Roman Catholic authorities for a CAPITAL offense: heresy; if Calvin had not cooperated with that investigation he could have put his entire family and ministry at risk. Heresy was a VERY serious charge then; what do you think might happen to me if I refused to cooperate with an FBI terrorism investigation?
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Ignoramus? Once more: the Catholic Church had no power or influence whatsoever in the Protestant Republic of Geneva. Read William Naphy: Calvin and the Consolidation of the Genevan Reformation. Catholicism was even BANNED from the city ever since 1535... that's well before the trial of Servetus.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, you little HISTORICALLY IGNORANT LYING WRETCH, John Calvin was not a citizen of Geneva until 1559, five years before his death, six years AFTER Servetus' execution. Servetus was prosecuted by ROMAN CATHOLIC authorities as instruments of the Geneva goverment; Calvin held NO governmental authority in that matter, you lousy FALSE ACCUSER. "Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Yale Divinity School, "Calvin", pg. 220
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Will you just read for a second here: THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAD ZERO INFLUENCE IN GENEVA BY THE TIME SERVETUS REACHED THE CITY - IT HAD IN FACT NOT HAD ANY POWER THERE SINCE 1535. The GENEVA GOVERNMENT was in NO WAY subjected to the CATHOLIC CHURCH in any way shape or form by the time Servetus was tried and killed. Seriously: READ UP ON GENEVAN HISTORY... For crying out loud.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "On April 4, 1553, Servetus was arrested by the Roman Catholic authorities, and imprisoned in Vienne. He escaped from prison three days later. On June 17, he was convicted of heresy by the French inquisition, and sentenced to be burned with his books."--"New World Encyclopedia" This led to Servetus' execution. Either get an education or SHUT YOUR LYING FACE, for crying out loud, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Wait, you are now actually claiming Servetus was killed by the CATHOLIC CHURCH? In the PROTESTANT republic of Geneva? REALLY? LMAO
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Listen up, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS; you may learn something. Servetus was prosecuted by Roman Catholic authorities in his Geneva trial, and was sentenced by the Small Council; Calvin held NO governmental authority there during all of that, and he advocated for a more humane form of execution once they had decided to kill him. Also, Calvin tried to persuade Servetus to recant his heresies in an attempt to save his life. Either get an education or SHUT UP; LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Sigh... One more time: The CATHOLIC CHURCH, AND THEREFORE THE CATHOLIC INQUISITION HAD NO POWER WHATSOEVER IN GENEVA AFTER IT BECAME A PROTESTANT REPUBLIC IN 1535. According to your logic, Calvin would have burnt HIMSELF to death for being a heretic.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Sigh...one more time, you little DISHONEST PUNK: "As Servetus was not a citizen of Geneva, and legally could at worst be banished, they had consulted with other Swiss cantons (Zurich, Bern, Basel, Schaffhausen), which universally favored his condemnation and execution."--"New World Encyclopedia", "Michael Servetus" Servetus was hated by just about everyone, and his trial was an outgrowth of his original arrest by the Roman Catholic Church; the others joined in on it.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 ... the OTHER SWISS CANTONS WERE ALL PROTESTANT!!!!!!!!!! The CATHOLIC CHURCH HAD NO INFLUENCE IN THOSE CANTONS. For crying out loud man. You know NOTHING of periodical Swiss history, nothing of contemporary Genevan history and nothing of church history..
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Oh, please; YOU know NOTHING of substance on this subject; for crying out loud, Servetus was prosecuted by Roman Catholic authorities: "On 4 April 1553 Servetus was arrested by Roman Catholic authorities, and imprisoned in Vienne. He escaped from prison three days later. On 17 June, he was convicted of heresy by the French Inquisition...."--"Wikipedia", "Michael Servetus" His Geneva trial was a continuation of this original arrest; either get an education or SHUT UP.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 And who else did the CATHOLIC CHURCH deem heretics? Calvin, Bullinger, Oecolampadius, Bucer, Beza and the entire Reformed clergy of the Swiss cantons. Pray tell: why didn't these slavish pope-obeying reformers not carry out their own execution, as they were deemed just as much heretics as was Servetus? And Wikipedia really does not impress me. I go for the primary original sources.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Forget it, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS; your pretentious arrogance can't help you: "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church. Calvin's conduct can also be explained, more prosaically, by his fear of a popish plot aimed at destabilizing his position in Geneva. Thus Servetus was treated by both sides as a sort of double agent that neither camp recognized as one of its own."--Bernard Cottret, "Calvin", pgs. 220, 221 Pray tell: can you read? Keep embarrassing yourself.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Your loud-mouthed approach does in no way negate the fact that you are completely ignorant of church history, Swiss history and Genevan history. Calvin was in no way obligated to 'act out' the will of the Catholic Inquisition... He didn't need that incentive either, as it was Calvin who had tried to frame Servetus by sending incriminating letters to France in 1553. Calvin killed Servetus because Calvin WANTED to kill Servetus. Over to you...
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Your DISHONEST and COWARDLY approach does not negate in any way that you are a LYING FALSE ACCUSER, PUNK. "Calvin’s course in the tragedy of Servetus was fully approved by the best men in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. .... ...all Christians were happily agreed in maintaining the rightfulness of the death penalty for obstinate heretics, as murderers of souls."--Dr. Philip Schaff, "History of the Christian Church", Vol. 8, ch. 16, sec. 137 Over to you...
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 LOL... keep ragin'. Not all christians were 'happily agreed' at all. In fact, one of them, Sebastian Castellio, called Calvin out on his inquisition-esque behavior and pure bloodlust. Also, Schaff is a calvinist apologist, I don't take his work on this matter seriously at all. And again: in Geneva, the penalty for blasphemy/heresy was banishment, not death. CALVIN urged for the death penalty.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You are NOT a church historian, PUNK; Dr. Philip Schaff was, maybe the best one of them all. Castellio was opposed to Calvin; he is not an objective source. And no, Calvin did NOT urge for the death penalty, LIAR: "I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed on him; but I desired that the severity of the punishment be mitigated."--Calvin to William Farel, August 20, 1553 The more you post the more you bury yourself, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS; LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Oh right... instead of death by fire, death by beheading.. what a humane man Calvin was being here. And no, Schaff was not brilliant. Schaff was a biased Calvinist. For a non-biased take on Calvin's influence in Geneva I again refer to William Naphy: "Calvin and the Consolidation of the Genevan Reformation". And why do you think Castellio was opposed to Calvin? Because Castellio rightfully saw that Calvin was becoming the self-proclaimed pope of protestantism.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Oh, right...your ignorance of the historical acumen of Dr. Schaff shows just how UNLEARNED you really are. Castellio was opposed to Calvin because Castellio was a moral degenerate just like YOU. What does a YALE CHURCH HISTORIAN say, PUNK? "Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, "Calvin", pg. 220 What part of that don't you get, IDIOT?
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Yawn.. back again with Gordon? That's all you have? Do I really have to cite Calvin's own words again? And once more: in Geneva, per the town charter, heresy was NOT a capital offense. Again. Read up on Genevan history.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes, back again with Dr. Gordon, because this YALE CHURCH HISTORIAN says YOU'RE WRONG, you arrogant HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK. "Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, "Calvin", pg. 220 This CHURCH HISTORIAN absolves Calvin here, he says YOU ARE WRONG; LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!! You can whine and can gripe about it all you want to do, but you HAVE LOST.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You continue to accuse God's elect falsely; you will fail, for IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and for His glory, I now both plead and claim all the Scriptures against you and the DEVIL who is motivating you and both plead and claim His shed Blood on the Mercy Seat of יְהֹוָה in Heaven against you and the DEVIL who is motivating you to the effects that both of you shall be bound, shall be rebuked, and shall be defeated, all as it does please the Lord Jesus Christ.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Oh please. You really think I am impressed by the pseudo-sanctified babble of a foul-mouthed historical revisionist? Take your holier-than-thou bs elsewhere, please. The fish ain't bitin'..
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Oh, please. You really think you can accuse God's elect falsely without paying for it? What saith the Scriptures? Psa. 31:18 (KJV): "Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous." Rom. 8:34 (KJV): "Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Righteous? Calvin wasn't righteous with regard to Servetus. So your point is utterly invalid here. Also: I know it is a tried-and-true tactic of the defeated Calvinist historical revisionist to hide himself behind the bible, this, too, does not negate the bare historical truth: Calvin wanted Servetus dead, and in the end, he got his way. Period.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, "Calvin", pg. 220 This CHURCH HISTORIAN absolves Calvin here, so your point is utterly invalid here, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK. The Bible is the Sword of the Spirit, and it is the Means of your defeat, you WRETCH. Dr. Gordon refutes your HELLISH LIE, and there's no way out of it. Period. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Again...heresy was NOT a capital offense in Geneva. Please, before you start capslockin' and lolling away, check the sources. The punishment for heresy in Geneva was banishment, not death. And what did Calvin say? If he had any power in Geneva, HE, i.e. Calvin, would not let him get out alive. And lo and behold, Servetus comes to Geneva and is swiftly burnt to death... Because of theTown's Legal Code? No, for he would have been banished then. Then why? Because of Calvin.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK, what does a YALE CHURCH HISTORIAN say about heresy in the Servetus trial? "Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, "Calvin", pg. 220 This CHURCH HISTORIAN says YOU ARE WRONG; LOLOLOL!!!!!!! You can whine and can gripe about it all you want to do, but you HAVE LOST. John Calvin did NOT murder Michael Servetus, LIAR.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Again... heresy was not a capital offense in Geneva. You may even GOOGLE-find this information. Want to try again?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK, you are NOT a church historian; Dr. Gordon is, and he says that heresy was a capital offense in the Servetus trial. Want to try again?
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 I don't have to 'try'. The evidence is there. Even on the internet. According to the Geneva Town Charter, the punishment for heresy was banishment, not death. Just google it if you are too lazy to open a book.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes, the evidence is there, and it condemns you, LIAR: "Servetus recently came to Geneva to take advantage of the rancor felt toward Calvin by the government."--Wolfgang Musculus, 9/28/1553, letter to Heinrich Bullinger "For his own pleasure [he] wants to make me rot here in prison."--Michael Servetus, 9/15/1553, petition to the Small Council of Geneva, the body that condemned him to death Even Servetus admitted Calvin didn't want him dead. Try again, PUNK.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 You really do want me to cite Calvin himself again, don't you? You're strugglin' jack...
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Here's Calvin, PUNK: "I simply protested...that I had never pursued any personal grudge against [Servetus].... .... Then afterwards...I prayed him rather to think of begging mercy of God.... I prayed him to devote his efforts to asking pardon of the Son of God.... Seeing that I gained nothing by exhortations...I withdrew from a self-condemned heretic...."--Bernard Cottret, "Calvin", pgs. 224-225 That's Calvin, LIAR; either get an education or SHUT YOUR LYING FACE.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Oh is that Calvin? I have some more Calvin for you:
- "If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."
- "I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed upon him."
- "Do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones The first quote is invalid; what people say and what people do are two different things. You didn't give the rest of the second quote, LIAR: "I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed on him; but I desired that the severity of the punishment be mitigated." The third quote is suspect; Dr. Jules Bonnet, in "Letters of John Calvin, Vol. 4, pgs. 434-438, argues that it is a forgery. YOU LOSE AGAIN; LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 This is your rebuttal? 1.) Calvin wrote and did the same things. He actually used his influence to have Servetus killed for a crime that legally and technically was only punishable by banishment. 2.) The remainder of the quote is irrelevant as Calvin sought to only seek a milder form of capital punishment... it remains capital, nonetheless. 3.) Thoroughly and long since rebuked by scholars. You want to try again?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Calvin could be cruel to opponents, and he did not hesitate to persecute them, but there is NOTHING [emphasis mine] to suggest that he actively sought to kill them. Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, Calvin, pgs. 217, 220 YOU LOSE; you want to try again, LIAR?
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again, what does the evidence show? "I have had great difficulty in obtaining what I send you from Monsieur Calvin..... It seems to him that his duty is to convict heresies by doctrine rather than pursue them by such a means, since he does not hold the sword of justice."--Guillaume de Trie, 3/26/1553, letter to his cousin Matthieu Ory, Inquisitor General of the Faith You HELLISH LIAR, John Calvin did NOT murder Michael Servetus; either get an education or SHUT YOUR FACE.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 ROFL... you're back at this again? You're getting desperate. Calvin was in no way obliged to take commands from either de Trie, or, as you so ferociously keep claiming, the Vatican. The letters were sent to the French Inquisition because Calvin hoped that way the papists would get rid of Servetus.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, YOU are the one who's desperate, you LIAR; the evidence condemns you. No, Calvin was forced into a LEGAL INVESTIGATION by one who held govermental authority. Get it right, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Rofl... forced? By who, pray tell?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Calvin was forced by the LEGAL ENTITY that was conducting the INVESTIGATION of a CAPITAL offense, IDIOT; do you get that? Try some honesty for a change. While you're at it, get a spine and admit that YOU ARE WRONG.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 You really have no clue, do you? Who or what, pray tell, was that legal entity that forced Calvin to sent incriminating letters?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, YOU don't have a clue, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK; the legal entity that forced Calvin to send the material was the Roman Catholic prosecution, which was an INSTRUMENT of the Geneva government in that investigation. Get it right, LIAR.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Dear Calvinist007... The Geneva Government in 1553 was completely free of each and every Catholic influence, as the Genevan government had banned Catholicism since 1535. Really, you should actually do some research before you plunge feet first into debates that are about matters you have barely an understanding.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Dear LIAR...what does an ACADEMIC AUTHORITY say? "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church."--Bernard Cottret, founding chairman of the Department of Humanities at Versailles-Saint-Quentin University, "Calvin", pg. 220, 221 Your spineless arrogance can't help you; you HAVE LOST this point and you HAVE LOST this debate, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK; LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Yes, Servetus was prosecuted by the Catholic Church. He was even sentenced to death by the Catholic Church. Yet, he escaped. To where? Geneva, where he knew the punishment for heresy was banishment. The Catholic Church had no power whatsoever in Geneva. Do the math.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I'm glad to see that you have ADMITTED that you HAVE LOST the point that Servetus was prosecuted by the Roman Catholic Church. You have NO IDEA WHY Servetus went to Geneva, and until you do SHUT UP, you LIAR. Do the math.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 I never denied that Servetus was not prosecuted by the Catholic Church. Show me one bit of evidence where I state that Servetus was never prosecuted by the Catholic Church. The point is: Servetus managed to ESCAPE France, and thus the clutches of the Catholic Inquisition. What about this don't you understand?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Oh, please, you LITTLE SPINELESS COWARD; all through this particular point of the debate you have tried to deny the fact that Servetus was prosecuted by the Roman Catholic Church; DON'T LIE. When you were DEFEATED soundly on that point, you RAN FOR COVER like the little WORM that you are. What part of THAT don't you understand, you LYING FALSE-ACCUSING PUNK?
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 You really are something... I have even incriminated Calvin by stating it was he who sent the documents to the French Inquisition... Why would I state that? Because the Catholic Church had NOT prosecuted Servet??? Really.. for a minute, use your common sense here... The point is: in GENEVA, Servetus was not prosecuted by the CATHOLIC CHURCH but by Calvin and the Geneva Town Council, which was PROTESTANT. I mean, seriously... use your brain.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, YOU are really WICKED and EVIL, you LIAR. What part of this quote don't you get, you IDIOT? "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church. Calvin's conduct can also be explained, more prosaically, by his fear of a popish plot aimed at destabilizing his position in Geneva. Thus Servetus was treated by both sides as a sort of double agent that neither camp recognized as one of its own."--Bernard Cottret, "Calvin", pgs. 220, 221 YOU LOSE. AGAIN. LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Dear Calvinist... will you please look at my comments directly below the video. What exactly am I saying there in the few posts left there a month ago? Now, as you call me a liar, back this up by demonstrating that in my comments I have denied that the Catholic Church had prosecuted Servetus. If I haven't you are bearing false witness.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Dear LIAR...don't you DARE to try to deny that you were denying all along that the Roman Catholic Church prosecuted Servetus; it's there for all to see, you SPINELESS COWARD. Get some character.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Dear calvinist... either provide the evidence that I denied the Roman Church ever prosecuted Servetus, or apologize. You are now bearing false witness. But I guess the commandments don't count when you're one of the elect.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Forget it, PUNK; your linguistic prestidigitation can't help you. The evidence is on this thread for all to see; you LOST the point, you LOST the debate. Get a spine. For a change.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 The comments indeed are for all to see. And this is what they will get from them: Servetus was prosecuted by the Roman Catholic Church - thanks to Calvin sending personal correspondence to France in 1553 - and sentenced to death. Servetus escaped and fled to Geneva, where he was prosecuted again... by Calvin's cronies, and sentenced to death in a city where Catholicism had no influence whatsoever. Thanks.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Forget it, PUNK; you are a JOKE. What does an ACADEMIC AUTHORITY say about the matter? "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church. Calvin's conduct can also be explained, more prosaically, by his fear of a popish plot aimed at destabilizing his position in Geneva. Thus Servetus was treated by both sides as a sort of double agent that neither camp recognized as one of its own."--Bernard Cottret, "Calvin", pgs. 220, 221 YOU LOSE. ONCE AGAIN. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Oh this reference again? How does this one anywhere near provide 'proof' for Calvin's innocence?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones The quote shows that Calvin was FORCED to cooperate; THAT's how, you IDIOT.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "I have had great difficulty in obtaining what I send you from Monsieur Calvin..... It seems to him that his duty is to convict heresies by doctrine rather than pursue them by such a means, since he does not hold the sword of justice."--Guillaume de Trie, 3/26/1553 "Servetus recently came to Geneva to take advantage of the rancor felt toward Calvin by the government."--Wolfgang Musculus, 9/28/1553 The evidence has condemned you, LIAR; be a man and admit it. For a change.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Are you going to regurgitate all these tired and rebutted verses again? Cool with me, I'll just keep rebuttin'... Exactly under what obligation was Calvin to listen to de Trie? None. Calvin willed the documents to wind up in the hands of Catholic France.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Wrong, PUNK; Calvin was forced into that investigation by the LEGAL INVESTIGATIVE ENTITY that was involved with Servetus' prosecution. People who crossed folks like that back then suffered horrible consequences, up to and including death.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Again... one more time... the legal investigative entity that prosecured Servetus, before Servetus came to Geneva, was the Catholic Inquisition. The Catholic Inquisition had, since 1535, no power whatsoever in Geneva, as Geneva had oulawed Catholicism wholesale. So: you are claiming Calvin was following orders from the Catholic Church, while he was in protestant Geneva, as a protestant reformer. Again: no compute.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Again...one more time...you IDIOT, the Roman Catholic Church prosecuted Servetus originally, and the Protestant Reformers joined in on it because he was a heretic. Get it right, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 ... No no no... you said Calvin was OBLIGED to co-operate. He was not. The Catholic Inquisition had no influence in the Swiss reformed cantons. Calvin sent the letters because he WANTED to send the letters, not because he HAD to. What, you're going to say that if the Inquisition had asked for Calvin's delivery, Calvin would have gone?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones ...Yes, yes, yes...I said that Calvin was FORCED to cooperate, and I was right. That LEGAL INVESTIGATION compelled him to do so, heresy was a CAPITAL offense then--just as murder is now. The inquisitor's cousin knew Calvin had that material, and he pushed Calvin to surrender it, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 No, no, no... The Inquisition had NO POWER whatsoever to command Calvin to deliver them anything... Calvin sent it because he knew it would get Servetus in trouble.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes, yes, yes...HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS; the Roman Catholic Chruch was prosecuting Servetus, and the legal body responsible for that held much weight at any time--especially if it had a lot of money, as the Vatican did then. Either get an education or SHUT UP.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Uhhuh, but it didn't have enough power to actually get Calvin himself? Strange... he was in the same city as Servetus was...
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones First of all, IDIOT, "to actually get" is a split infinitive, a grammatical violation. Secondly, uh, huh, but it DID have power to do what the Geneva government allowed to it: the prosecution of Servetus. Get it right, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 You're falling over grammar now? Well, guess I can call victory.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Oh, please; I pointed out your incorrect grammar to show that not only are you UNLEARNED historically, you are UNEDUCATED grammatically, you LOUSE.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Victory it is.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yeah, right, you LIAR; just because you say it falsely doesn't make it so. You LITTLE WHIPPED CUR, you HAVE LOST this debate horribly and no amount of bravado can save you now; you are HISTORY, there is NO ESCAPE. The FEAR and ANXIETY are overtaking you even now, undoubtedly, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Fear? I would be very scared indeed if I was adament in believing the Catholic Church had any influence whatsoever in Geneva come 1553. V is for Victory.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones What part of this don't you get, IDIOT? "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church. Calvin's conduct can also be explained, more prosaically, by his fear of a popish plot aimed at destabilizing his position in Geneva. Thus Servetus was treated by both sides as a sort of double agent that neither camp recognized as one of its own."--Bernard Cottret, founding chairman of the Department of Humanities at Versailles-Saint-Quentin University, "Calvin", pgs. 220, 221
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 You can keep regurgitating those tired old verses. The fact remains: Calvin was in no way FORCED to hand over ANYTHING to the Catholic Inquisition... he did so because he WANTED to, out of sheer hatred towards Servetus.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Wrong, you WRETCHED LIAR; what does the evidence say? "I have had great difficulty in obtaining what I send you from Monsieur Calvin..... It seems to him that his duty is to convict heresies by doctrine rather than pursue them by such a means, since he does not hold the sword of justice."--Guillaume de Trie, 3/26/1553, letter to his cousin Matthieu Ory, Inquisitor General of the Faith YOU LOSE. AGAIN. AND AGAIN. AND AGAIN. LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "...the prosecution of Servetus by the Catholic Church. Calvin's conduct can also be explained, more prosaically, by his fear of a popish plot aimed at destabilizing his position in Geneva. Thus Servetus was treated by both sides as a sort of double agent that neither camp recognized as one of its own."--Bernard Cottret, "Calvin", pgs. 220, 221 Calvin was NOT a pawn of the Vatican, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Don't back pedal now... You said Calvin was FORCED to co-operate. I asked by whom. You said: the investigative entity, which was, before Servetus came to Geneva, the Catholic Inquisition. You are basically stating that Calvin was forced by the Catholic Church to surrender documents damning to Servetus, while Catholicism itself had been outlawed in Geneva in 1535 and had no power there whatsoever. Right?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, YOU are the one who is backpedaling, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS; the Roman Catholic authorities were prosecuting Servetus, and the inquisitor's cousin, a friend of Calvin, knew Calvin had that material and pushed Calvin to surrender it. You HAVE LOST; put up the white flag while you have some semblance of credibility and dignity left, PUNK.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 I will as soon as you convince me the Catholic Inquisition actually had power in a Protestant City-Republic that had outlawed Catholicism in 1535.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I never said that Servetus' trial was part of the Roman Catholic Inquisition, PUNK; YOU said that. The Vatican had arrested Servetus originally, and his Geneva trial was a continuation of THAT; the Protestant authorities joined in on it because Servetus was a heretic. Get it right, HISTORICAL IGNORAMUS.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Ah, back pedalling just the same...
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!! YOU are the one who is backpedaling, you LIAR; you don't have enough of a spine to admit that you're wrong, you're trying "to do a dance" to avoid that, COWARD.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Wrong about what? Sure: as soon as you can provide the evidence that the Catholic Church had any influence in Geneva come 1553, I will prove in public I was wrong.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You were WRONG about Servetus' prosecution, and you are WRONG about the historical context of that day, PUNK; the Vatican prosecuted Servetus, and anyone who did not cooperate with that LEGAL INVESTIGATION did so at their peril. Either get an education or SHUT UP.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 V-I-C-T-O-R-Y.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!! Again, you LIAR; just because you say it falsely doesn't make it so. You LITTLE WHIPPED WORM, you HAVE LOST this debate horribly and no amount of bravado can save you now; you are HISTORY, there is NO ESCAPE. The FEAR and ANXIETY are overtaking you even now, undoubtedly, HISTORICALLY IGNORANT PUNK. You HAVE LOST, you SPINELESS COWARD. Get lost, take a hike.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 No, I'm pretty sure I have won this debate. Many times over. And those reading both our posts will do the same, if they are not as zealously clinging on to their holy, spotless saint as you are.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, you're pretty sure that you HAVE LOST this debate and that you're too SPINELESS to admit it, PUNK. Anyone who reads this debate knows who has been WHIIPPED badly, and that's YOU; LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are a PATHETIC JOKE.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 The day I will be whipped by someone who proclaims the Catholic Church had influence over Calvin in Geneva in 1553 is the day I myself will convert to calvinism.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones The day that you admit that you're WRONG may be the day when donkeys fly, you SPINELESS COWARD. Be a man. For a change.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Victory is sweet indeed.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Calvin could be cruel to opponents, and he did not hesitate to persecute them, but there is NOTHING [emphasis mine] to suggest that he actively sought to kill them. Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, Calvin, pgs. 217, 220 This YALE UNIVERSITY CHURCH HISTORIAN says you are WRONG; LOLOLOL!! Your denial of that FACT doesn't change it, COWARD.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Impedit ira animum, ne possit cernere vernum.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones It is written (II Tim. 1:7), οὐ γὰρ ἔδωκεν ἡμῖν ὁ θεὸς πνεῦμα δειλίας ἀλλὰ δυνάμεως καὶ ἀγάπης καὶ σωφρονισμοῦ--"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." It is written again (I Jn. 4:4), ὑμεῖς ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐστε, τεκνία, καὶ νενικήκατε αὐτοὺς, ὅτι μείζων ἐστὶν ὁ ἐν ὑμῖν ἢ ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ--"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."
Calvinist007 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones You want to talk about victory, you WRETCH? What saith the Scriptures? Rom. 8:31, 33-34 (KJV): "What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."
Calvinist007 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Calvin could be cruel to opponents, and he did not hesitate to persecute them, but there is NOTHING [emphasis mine] to suggest that he actively sought to kill them. Heresy was a capital offense, but Calvin did not want Servetus to die."--Dr. Bruce Gordon, Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale Divinity School, Calvin, pgs. 217, 220 This YALE UNIVERSITY CHURCH HISTORIAN says you are WRONG; LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "Servetus recently came to Geneva to take advantage of the rancor felt toward Calvin by the government."--Wolfgang Musculus, 9/28/1553, letter to Heinrich Bullinger "For his own pleasure [he] wants to make me rot here in prison."--Michael Servetus, 9/15/1553, petition to the Small Council of Geneva, the body that condemned him to death Calvin had fallen out of favor with the Genevan government, and Servetus admitted that Calvin did NOT want him dead, you LIAR.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "If [Calvin] was mistaken...that was an error of judgment...which all the Catholics and Protestants of that age shared. Nor should it be overlooked that Servetus was convicted of falsehood, that he overwhelmed Calvin with abuse, and that he made common cause with the Libertines, the bitter enemies of Calvin, who had a controlling influence in the Council of Geneva at that time, and hoped to overthrow him."--Schaff, "History of the Christian Church", Vol. 8, ch. 16, sec. 137
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Schaff... I don't take Schaff seriously on this matter, sorry.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I really don't CARE what your opinion is of Dr. Philip Schaff; he was a great church historian, maybe the best of all time. Either get an education or SHUT YOUR HISTORICALLY IGNORANT FACE.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Schaff is biased and outdated. I suggest you read William Naphy's far more historically accurate "Calvin and the Consolidation of the Genevan Reformation". For one, you'll see that the 'Libertines' never even existed.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones No, Dr. Schaff is reputable to this day, PUNK; it's that simple.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones People become angry when they are embarrassed; God has allowed me to embarrass you horribly in this debate, and your anger is evident. Get a spine. For a change.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 Angry? I'm not angry. I am amused. Here is someone who boldly proclaims I have denied that the Catholic Church prosecuted Servetus, whereas comments rights below this video, left over a month ago, show that I have never done such a thing. I find that rather hilarious.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Yes, you're angry because you're embarrassed, and no amount of linguistic legerdemain can help you now, you little SPINELESS COWARD. You know perfectly well that you have done your dead-level best to deny that Michael Servetus was prosecuted by Roman Catholic authorities, if only in spirit. Get a spine, you little DISHONEST PUNK. Be a man. For a change.
Calvinist007 6 months ago
@Calvinist007 I would be angry if I was anywhere ignorant enough to believe Servetus would flee France if he was not, indeed, prosecuted by the Catholic Church.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago