bad counterpoint

[gblaney]

A musical selection is neither good or bad, unless people believe it to be so. I'm a modern theorist and am willing and able to admit: "We are often arrogant and ignorant, in our belief that we will construct wholesome guidelines from analyzing!" (e.g. I've got no clue whatsoever, even after almost two decades of training, what Bach or Mozart or Beethoven were thinking and feeling, but I do know this: "They broke our quote unquote rules more often than the average student is lead to believe!")

[palomaeyes]

This piece just goes to show how much more interesting music can be when we stop listening to "theorists" telling us how to write "good" music. I like the tremelo(?) in the background that sounds like it's been electronically processed, or something. Anyone know where to find the recording?

[broodfood]

this is really cool. Really really cool.

[N891US]

That actually sounds kinda cool, like in an eerie way...should be in a film.

[gr4l9um20b7o]

Is this about counterpoint?

[datisookzo]

when your ears tell you it's right, it's right..

[mroldschoolhiphop1]

this more of harmany than counterpoint. And i here too many dissanant intervals.

[DICACIO1]

Ey! check out my upload, "Counterpoint - Mafia Wars" It's a kool example ;)

[callmeBe]

Really bad counterpoint, really bad music. Maybe good if you're smoking something mellow . . . otherwise, just more new age garbage in C major.

[manthasagittarius]

Oh shit no -- I thought I burned that homework . . .

[DICACIO1]

@manthasagittarius LOL... that was extremely clever and funny 

[brunostung]

geez lossen up. Listern to some modern stuff ............................st­ravinsky, hey maybe even check out some zappa. LOL seriously stop acting like you have sticks shoved up you anuses

[CroissantOrange]

This is pretty much what new age all about

[BeauJames59]

cute!

[MatsEP]

Sounds like my first first species attempt.... no, mine was better.

[Nillz1990]

bad counterpoint, nice ambient music.

[Laudan08]

The problem here is that i don't see a shit of the score.

[poupoule22]

there is just no counterpoint... we call it an homorythm

[mahajohn]

Since when is it a truism that Bach didn't compose the T&F in Dm, his most well-known piece!?

[parquar]

I know Bach probably didn't write toccata and fugue in d minor but I was just trying to use one example they would have heard of. Contrapunctus XIV would probably be one of the greatest refutations to somebody saying that Bach is bland and standard but it won't help as much if they hadn't heard of it

[wcbroccoli]

@parquar I don't know any such thing. Neither does anyone else. It was probably a transcription of a work for solo violin.

[AEFic]

It's bad counterpoint, not because it's dissonant (you can break that rule if you know how), but because you can't properly hear two equal voices- just one and some weird harmonies. In other words, it sounds fine, but without two clearly defined musical lines, it is not counterpoint.

But this is designed to show an example of poor counterpoint, and as such, it works.

[smalin]

John Cage would have been proud of you.

[fcmilsweeper9]

Whats the point of all these theory rules anyway?

And what is counterpoint?

[DonnieTheKing]

@fcmilsweeper9 In its simplest terms, counterpoint is the simultaneous occurrance of two or more voices.

[wcbroccoli]

@DonnieTheKing That definition won't work because "simultaneous occurence of the 2 or more voices" could be accomplished by having all the voices move in parallel motion, which is precisely what counterpoint avoids. Counterpoint requires independence of the voices, accomplished by favoring contrary, similar and oblique motion over parallel motion.

[DonnieTheKing]

@wcbroccoli 

[jdean9]

I wish more examples such as this would presented alongside with something to compare it to. Comparison is such a strong way to make the qualities of something become clear. This sounds like music to me, even if I knew where the "errors" are I don't think they would bug me that much, but maybe if I had the chance to compare it with an alternate version with "correct" counterpoint, Maybe then I would learn something or discover a new way of hearing things.

[PrepsAndEmosSuck]

this is not counterpoint

[allanm8888]

this is beautiful. only bach would say this is bad but not everything has to abide by classical theory

[parquar]

Bach broke many of those rules. He was just the best, not the most rule-abiding. Possibly he would say it is bad on the basis of it's unimaginative repetition of notes. The only thing really making this cool is the effect.

[allanm8888]

well, you could be right about bach braking the rules some rules but as far as ive learned and studied his works, he never broke any basic harmony rules

[parquar]

How basic do you mean by harmony rules? For an extremely common example, Toccata and Fugue involves many parallel harmonies and ends with a IV I without a picardy third. But for actual dissonant things, listen to fantasy in G minor. There is also chromatic fantasy and fugue in d minor, and the 'wedge' fugue in e minor. They have pretty unconventional harmonies.

[allanm8888]

ok i stand corrected

[bmh4d0k3n]

@parquar Bach didn't write the Toccata and Fugue, btw. In fact, those very qualities are evidence of its dubious authorship.

[Marmalade000000]

Reminds me of Erik Satie.........

[amistrymister]

I really like it. I would use some of those chords while composing minimalism.

[ragerpez]

shite counterpoint, fantastic piece

[SpawnofHastur]

The rules are there so you think before you break them, not so you don't break them at all.

I like this piece.

If you don't bend the rules, then music as a whole doesn't evolve.

[kaeverens]

damn - I hit the "disagree" hand instead of the "agree" one. and youtube doesn't appear to let you correct your mistakes.

Yes. I agree. Music is not set in stone, and should not be. If you couldn't break the rules, then there would be no freedom to it.

besides - I think when Fux was writing his rules, he was probably thinking a lot along the lines of "uh-oh - that doesn't sound right in most cases. ok - let's make it illegal"

[PhrygianBlack]

It is true, and in fact happens more often than not in modern music, that the rules of counterpoint are not obeyed. However, one can still use theses rules without breaking them to create truly beautiful music.

[DrShankums]

@SpawnofHastur I guess that's cool in a poetic way, but realistically that doesn't make much sense. Musical rules are there so music can evolve and not sound like garbage.

[SpawnofHastur]

@DrShankums

Oh, certainly. But for quite a long time, people thought that the major third was a dissonant interval- and yet, today, we use it freely as a consonant one.

Some of the most beautiful pieces I've ever head wag their middle fingers at the rules of theory- Henry Cowell's Irish Suite, or Leo Ornstein, for example.

I'll admit, quite a lot of folk wouldn't like it, but I love it.

[wcbroccoli]

@SpawnofHastur Whether an interval is treated as consonant or dissonant has nothing to do with whether someone thinks it sounds beautiful; it has to do with the aesthetics of tension and resolution.

In Western music, the 3rd has been treated as an imperfect consonance, never as a dissonance. (The perfect consonances are the unison, 5th and 8ve.)

[smitty01209]

@DrShankums The purpose of these rules is to know which you can break and for what reasons.

[DrShankums]

@smitty01209 No, the purpose of the rules are for a better understanding of how music works.

[wcbroccoli]

@DrShankums The rules were derived from observation of what composers did when writing in a a certain style. The purpose of following the rules is to imitate that style. If you expect to hear something in that style but the composer departs significantly from the rules, you tend to hear the departure as "something's not quite right" because is doesn't fit the style.

It has nothing to do with right or wrong, good or bad. It has to do with sounding true to a particular style.

[ReignOfPraine]

This is actually quite awesome. Very original sound.

[finchisgod]

What is wrong with the counterpoint?

[MaventaofCosta]

There are rules to counterpoint that are being broken throughout the piece, it was simply written to show the student and composer examples of a bad counterpoint.

[charliethewookie]

excuse my ignorance...why is this bad counter point?

[C33Four]

Counterpoint relies on heavy use of independence of each voice, and there are many problems here. The rhythm of each note is the same for each voice, not to mention three are many perfect intervals (which tend to sound like a bland mix of voices instead of a flavor of separate voices).

Not to say this is bad music. Poor demonstration of counterpoint, but interesting sound otherwise.

[wcbroccoli]

@C33Four "Counterpoint", by which you mean the practice of counterpoint as opposed to an instance of a counterpoint, does not merely rely on heavy use of on independence of the parts.

Counterpoint IS, BY DEFINITION, independence of the parts, accomplished by the use of contrary, similar and oblique motion and avoidance of parallel motion.

The parts do not have different note values avoid parallel motion.

In the 1st species of modal counterpoint, all the parts move in whole notes.

[WorldThatWeLiveIn]

@wcbroccoli Thanks, you just saved me from having to trawl through the internet looking for a definition of counterpoint for my my music homework.

[monteverdi1567]

@C33Four I would have to agree with you-- I find it actually a quite interesting piece of music, if a bit abstract, but pleasant and enjoyable. Not however, contrapuntal at all, but "planar," as in the music of the Impressionists.

[broodfood]

@C33Four

try reading the description

[joshu9174]

@broodfood thank for clarifying that, i dont think c33four understood that:)

[toogoodbw]

@C33Four The first species of counterpoint is "note against note" which all voice have the same rhythm. This composition doesn't follow the rest of the criteria for "note against note" so it is not counterpoint.

[binky69]

@C33Four thats why the video is called bad counterpoint

[ixsetf]

@C33Four Those are barely problems with counterpoint, if you are going to say something, parallel fifths and octaves, problems with the leading tone, consecutive direct fifths by contrary motion, ect, would be the biggest sorts of problems.

[VolkColopatrion]

too close,

[oregonskateok]

How displeasing to my ears, lol.