Interesting statistic about human aggression

[contraquizzical]

And your article disputing Pinker's claim is thought provoking, but his argument is based on proportional data, whereas yours is based solely on larger numbers, which is misrepresentative given the growth in human population in the last hundred years.

[contraquizzical]

I understand the role of propaganda and conditioning in state-sponsored violence, however I also believe that at the core of that principle is inherent human aggression, an archaic but also pervasive instinct handed down by evolutionary ancestors.Therefore, the challenge of the state lies in reversing the socially ritualized moral value of human life, not inventing and introducing an entirely foreign concept.

[igotssssoul]

That's very interesting and thank you for sharing. Someone mentioned population growth and that sounds like that could comprise a good argument if you also combine that with how much the human ego has grown in the world (especially Western ideals). Also, I can't help but wonder if battles fought under the basis of human rights is something to take into account when looking over those statistics.

[WalkerEdelstein]

nature is a part of ourself and the more we move away from nature the more we move away from ourself. its all a metapher (the more we just use nature for profit the more we just use the human beeing and of course animals) so the moving away from nature into a thought-constructed technological world is simply a metapher of the moving away from the self. and the product of that is aggression, idioty, wars, etc etc.

[dirkcjelli]

What is the justification for counting the number of battles, as opposed to the number of casualties per capita or the number per capita who wind up fighting in a statist armed conflict?

I'm concerned this methodology may give misleading results on account of changing definitions of what "one battle" constitutes, etc. (I'm generally mistrustful of suggestions of a "golden age in the past.")

[ApopheniaIV]

elias canetti - crowds & power

[LarkaSojourn]

I Adore Erich Fromme ~ I found him when I was seventeen and he brought a valuable understanding of the dangers of becoming "Automatons" I felt a dramatic awakening ~ Thanks for reading his thoughts.

[hume12345]

solar? are you sure?

[hume12345]

whether we like it or not, we will be going back to a more primitive society. energy resources will be non-existent in the 22nd century. no aeroplanes, no submarines, no tanks (not in the conventional sense) and limited capability to make other instruments of war.

[mariocaric]

Solar...solar...solar

[baofuv8]

solar weapons =(

[Sepero1]

Let's do some math. We can estimate the first incomplete time period to be 45 battles for 1400-1499. (9*5)

Now we can calculate that the average battle increase per 100 years (up to 1899) is approximately 119.54%.

Using this percent to complete 1900-1999, we arrive at 1429 battles. And using that figure, we can estimate that 2000-2099 will be 3138 battles.

[Sepero1]

One thing I really like is how you read so much.

[QuinnEGorges]

Well, well, well. Are we surprised?

(Not really).

Glad you're still here.

[alovelytime]

fake,

optimists aren't deluded. they just see things from our innate traits of non-aggression and cooperation.

today, if not always, its the pessimist who is deluded.

[armando3210]

how do propose to resolve this issue?

[antisubaru]

"People do not make war; only governments do that"

And that was said by a fascist.

[vktrsx]

"Of course the people don't want war. ...it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ...the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism...."

--Nazi leader Hermann Göring at the Nuremberg trials

[antisubaru]

I think that you one-upped me.

[mr1001nights]

Elites would like to believe so-- It is a law of nature that they should enslave you and exploit you.

[d3p3ch3mod3]

Definitely reinforces the idea that intelligence isn't nearly as favored by natural selection as we presume, but I'd definitely need to see the methodology before I ever used it in an argument or paper etc.. How can/did they possibly track every single small scale skirmish or primitive tribal warfare and on top of that know that those wouldn't wind up equalling the same per-capita casualty rate?

[keytoothed]

Population growth=more aggressive expansion=more conflicts over resources, I would think.

[mr1001nights]

Optimists think it could be

Population growth=less isolation, more collective understanding & mutual aid= more sharing of resources

[TheScrewOnHead]

According to Steven Pinker violence has been declining by percent.  watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk&feature=ch­annel_page

[mr1001nights]

I already refuted pinker 2 years ago phillyimcDOTorg/es/node/61270

[comradepinko]

I recall reading studies of soldiers reacting to combat in World War I. Soldiers would be unwilling to kill another human being and would frequently simply fire over the head of their opponent. Significant changes to training were made to condition soldiers to quickly aim and fire at human targets.

Not only is a state required to start a conflict, it needs to steal some of the humanity from its soldiers to actually get them to do the killing.

[Antarblue]

That is the nature of the power centers we call 'states." States are frozen war; wars are liquid states. The 'p' word 'primitive a subjective and pejorative one, is no longer acceptable in social science. Same with pre-industrial, non-lieterate, pre-literate, etc. Traditional societies use a different survival strategy; your own survival depends on the survival of your group members. Murder, rape, theft are often counter-survivalist.

[TheDystopiaInside]

Keep in mind, war has changed. We don't mind having more battles as technology increases and the number dead on our side is bound to be lower. Also we might feel the need to go to war more as the technology of others increases.

I would agree that modern man is a "savage with nukes" -- Perhaps it comes down to an unchanging human nature.

P.S. Erich Fromm is a damn good writer, very accessible to anyone and yet also very deep. That's a rare thing in political and sociological books.

[comradepinko]

I'd have to disagree that technology has always decreased casualties. In the time period presented in the video increases in technology were dramatically increasing the number killed.

I do agree that the trend you are suggesting has become a reality in the last few decades though.

[oldorangedog]

modern times,modern war.you cant compare 1400 to 2009.i saw the second plane go into the world trade centre live on satellite tv.compare like with like.statistics prove nothing,living does.

[brainpolice2]

I think it has more to do with the intensity of war than the propensity towards violence itself.

[Xenu]

I'm not sure what you mean. Intra-european conflict 1950 - 2000 is significantly lower than it's been in centuries.

[ChurchofMe88]

where the balls did he stipulate he was only referring to intra-european conflicts?

[Xenu]

Uh... 0:55

[mr1001nights]

The period shown is 1900-1940 (not 1950). It doesnt include WW2 or 40s conflicts. I say "battles engaged in by the principal European powers" NOT intra-European conflict. The earlier sentence about the number&intensity of wars being "highest among powerful states" also refers to attacks against noneuropean(eg 3rd world) countries. True, European states waged fewer wars against each other in the 2nd half of the 20th century. WW2 taught them their increased destructive potential made it too costly

[Staubdumm]

Even though I really appreciate Erich Fromm, I think this statistic and his analysis of it is flawed. He was surely not a primitivist by the way. He said that primitivism is "regression", comparing it to a man who wants to get back to mothers womb. Even though he never said it, he had very anarchist strains.

[Cefuroxx]

he described himself as a libertarian socialist in an interview i have seen before

[RSFO]

Who? I would take it as a compliment if someone called me a libertarian socialist. .-D

[Cefuroxx]

fromm, i think it was in an old black and white interview with mike wallace doen in the 50´s...

[RSFO]

Ah okay. Very good and sane people often call themselves libertarian socialists it seems. .-)

[sharperguy]

I think you'd have to compare it over a longer time period than that.

For example I'm sure there were a lot more battles when the Romans were around.

Also, if you look at the scale it is inconsistent. The 9 battles took place over 19 years, the 892 battles took place over 40 years (so yes that is still a big increase). The middle four take place over 99 years.

There also can be many other explanations for increasing wars such as Imperialism and Fascism.

[regemo]

It's probably the rise of technology. The easier it is to kill a human, the more likely violent engagements are. The human nature doesn't need to change, just the temptation to solve problems with violence due to the ease of killing.

[Philfa]

I agree with the sentiment, but couldn't the quantity of battles reflect the increase in population?

[mikezephyr]

ive just finished " a sane society' by fromm

that book has to be read by everyone who has read this comment.

[GlobalTelos]

Oh, I am so favoriting this.

Thank you Mr. 1001Nights

[UcanbeGOD]

Interestin by-golly.