Bach vs Equal Temperament, part 1 -- Bradley Lehman

[kratanuva725]

I would just like to say, that for the longest time, I found well temperaments superior to equal temperament in all cases, but I recentley have found a few cases where equal temperament (besides praticaloty bases poruposes) would be desirable from a compositinal standpoint.

[kratanuva725]

@kratanuva725 Wow, sorry about the spelling, anyway...

Some well temperaments have a few diatonic scales that are very close to an equally tempered diatonic scale. This is a good thing, because the equally tempered major scale is a specific sound, desirable in certan situations. Now, I used to think that since well temperaments have near equal tempered diatonic scales, and many more varietys of diatonic scales, they had more variation in color as opposed to 12-TET.

[kratanuva725]

@kratanuva725 This is true, however, what if you wanted to play a C-F# progression, and you wanted both of the chords to be equally tempered? That is a specific sound that can't be acchieved in a well temperament. The key here is, non-diatonic progressions might be more desirable in 12-tet than in a well temperament, simply because it is a diffrent sound. I'm not saying that C-F# in a well temperament dosen't sound good, just that in 12-tet, it sounds diffrent, that that sound may be desirable..

[kratanuva725]

@kratanuva725 in some cases.

I hope this is all understandable, it is coplicated.

Also, I don't think that serial music sounds better in 12-tet; the un-eveness of semitones makes it more interesting. It might be usefull if you were going for a completley sterile, lifeless, serial sound though....

[javierpe9103]

es mucho mas claro la afinacion de bach !!!

[philnoll]

So much more brilliant when you hear it well tempered.

[theillfrisch]

the differences are much more noticable when the chords are held longer. i can clearly bear the beating on the final major chords of each piece in equal temperment.

[silpheedTandy]

that's so crazy!! it totally sounds like you used better recording equipment for bach's temperment -- it sounds more "crystal" and more enchanting. my goodness, i never heard the difference between equal temperment tuning vs just tuning before this -- thanks for making this vid!

[Rendereason]

Congratulations on advancing such a little discussed topic. I hope your Bach temperament becomes widely discussed in the music community, (and widely accepted, of course!).

This works is so groundbreaking that it could revolutionize how we perform and listen to ALL of our classical and modern songs! Playing classical music in equal temperament is wrong, after all!

[DannyWrigley]

This is brilliant work. Have you ever considered making a classical guitar that conforms to this tuning?

[koipondity]

Thanks for making this video!

Very cool!

[daharja]

Really interesting. The difference to me is the difference between unlistenable and listenable.

[AZliberty]

The difference is remarkable! The Bach temperament is so much brighter and open-sounding, especially the C-major! I am astounded by the difference. This has opened up my ears.  Thanks!

[freespacehero]

Mr. Lehman,

Thank you very much for uploading this comparison to aid the understanding of such a fascinating and mysterious topic.

I was wondering if you could upload a higher quality version of this please? It would make it more enjoyable and the differences perhaps more clear.

[thebpl]

Thanks! I don't have a higher-resolution version, though. That one was recorded in May 2005 (as it says in the "more info" section here). The camera's resolution is what it is.

If you're looking for better audio, you can hear most of these pieces on my CD. They are also in the complete sets of WTC book 1 by Watchorn, Egarr, and Beausejour all using this temperament. YouTube is no substitute for any of those recordings!

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

One can use a FREE program called "Sonic Audio Analysis" so as to view "Frequency vs Time" curves of various recordings.

I'm mainly interested in VOCAL, sacred music chant, and, beyond the fact that there are ENORMOUS discrepencies between chord / vocal renderings (ex :major tones at almost 230 cents vs 200 [ET] and 204 [natural]), tempo and harmonics play a significant psycho-acoustic role.

I REALLY enjoyed the second part. I listened the the first piece comparatively = 2nd version = better.

[spectralmusic]

Hello Bradley. Have you considered recording the complete Well-Tempered Clavier with this tuning and selling it to a label? You could divide the actual playing between colleagues.

[thebpl]

There are already three complete recordings of it (book 1) on the market -- Watchorn, Egarr, and Beausejour. Watchorn is recording book 2 right now.

I also have my own recording of six preludes/fugues from book 1 out there: five (C, f, f#, bb, B) on harpsichord, one (Eb) on organ.

[spectralmusic]

Great, I'll look out for those. I hope they're not too far off (today's) concert pitch. Sometimes harpsichords are tuned down.

[ancjr]

the audio quality completely swamps any discernable difference in temperament.

[spectralmusic]

I'd say it swamps only the major benefits of the temperament, but there is a noticeable difference in overall tension between the two.

[PocketGroove82]

I disagree.

Sure we can complain about terrible digital camera microphones, compression caused by posting to youtube, and inaccurate computer speakers, but I think the different is apparent. Maybe not in C, but the others keys to exhibit a varied amount of "rub" to my ears.

[Lucienuca]

does anyone know the aproximatly how much lower instruments were tuned then than they are now?

[hmaren]

It all depends on the locality. The A that's commonly used by period groups sits around 415 Hz versus today's standard of 440 (sometimes higher, depending on the group and the location). However, there are locations that used a higher A than today's. For instance, I recently attended a performance of the Monteverdi 1610 Vespers that surmised that the court of Venice used an A of 465.

[Lucienuca]

sounds so much better on the Bach temperament

[angryjalapeno]

I'm guessing the distinctiveness is clearer when there is bass because of the resulting overtones. I can hear it especially in the ending chords (I think).

[violinroy]

Bach's tuning seems to make the bass leading tones more leading...and maybe the 3rd of the root chord is on the high side?

[LutenistDeMari]

I do agree that the equal temperament posesses a bland and unoffensive evenness throughout all scales. In 'Bach's Temperament', each new key area or scale posesses posesses a new flavour, some being more tangy than others. I can see how this would prompt variety in one's performance - lingering here and there on nice tangy, unusual intervals, or relaxing on a more pure one.

[wilddrawfour]

I couldn't hear a difference either

[DJPsionix]

The second tuning has more of a breezy feel to it.

[DJPsionix]

Wait a sec - I just heard the bach tuning on the prelude in C (4:42). Amazing! It's totally different. But which one do I prefer? I think I'm just used to equal temperament...

[p0lyph0ny]

Very nice. I wonder how a piano would sound with Bach's temperament....I am also quite curious how other composers (who did not compose for this temperament) might sound on it.

[tacetviola]

I can only tell the difference when the texture becomes more thick.

[servirsidellaluna]

Thank you for this video, I'm discovering a new prospective!

[PeriodinstrumentfaN]

It would be interesting to know the reactions of people who have absolute pitch and are musically trained upon hearing both versions.

I have relative pitch so i can only say that the pieces sound better on unequal temperament.

[IsaacIsaiahMusic]

The re-tuned tones are still within the same 'pitch zone' as those of equal temperament, so an Ab (for example) still sounds like an Ab in both tunings. The appreciation lies in the relative sounds of tones reacting against each other, not so much from the sound of tones in isolation. The real problem of tempering is one of producing harmonious intervals and chords over some or all keys. The Bach tuning certainly sounds sweeter, but it is really necessary to hear this in person.

Good work!

[PeriodinstrumentfaN]

thanks for enlightening... :>

[Emlomor]

I have absolute pitch and it's very hard for me to hear the difference.

At the first listenning of the full video, I thought : "it's the same ???!"

Then I tried to concentrate only on the 10 first seconds (0-10" in equal temperament, 1'20'' - 1'30'' in Bach Temperament) , and I thought : "Ok, maybe a little little difference in some intervals..."

But for me it's not obvious ;-)

[bcn001]

Emlomor, you do not need absolute pitch to tell the difference. Absolute pitch bears no relation to intervals. You just need a trained ear to notice how they sound different.

[spectralmusic]

I wouldn't say you need a 'trained ear' to tell the difference at all. I know 'casual' guitarists who tune their guitar to a pure D major chord for slide guitar without realising it. They then wonder why it's out of tune at the frets.

[shaind]

oh my god I can find no difference...... I dearly want to know the difference but I just can't.

[Timrath]

aside from how fascinating all of this is, you also play very beautifully.

[bebopnazi]

Brilliant! I hate to compare your wonderful research to the Da Vinci Code, but all the squiggles and loops make it irresistible.  Bravo! It sounds simply wonderful. What a difference.

[ChiChithePygo]

This is a really wonderful reference---thanks so much for putting it together!

[ChiChithePygo]

This is a really wonderful reference---thanks so much for putting it together!

[mrtyles]

i really thought much of bach's music was pretty bland before watching this. tuning makes all the difference.

[mrtyles]

i love the sound of the harpsichord. it's like a guitar and a piano rolled into one.

[infernobegins]

I am depressed now. I feel that I must listen to all Bach's music in this temeperament to truly understand it. Hopefully it can be understood near as well in equal temperament. There is probably quit a bit that we're missing though.

[openminded11]

Absolutely brilliant. I'm sure Bach, wherever he is, is grateful for your fine work. Finally the spirit lives in the music again!

[stuyourfuturegod]

Wow, this sounds great. If one were interested in tuning a piano in a similar way would that work out? And would it be possible to tell the piano tuner to tune it based on the method you gave? But yeah, congratulations, this is great.

[thebpl]

Thanks! Yes, it works very well on piano too. I maintain our church's piano in this all the time, for almost three years already...and have played through lots of Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Grieg, Brahms, Joplin, Debussy, etc. It's as flexible as equal is, through all keys.