I'm dating a Moonie and I don't even believe in any religon. I've watched the sermon or whatever you call it and its definitely not a cult. No, I'm not "Brainwashed" I'm not even committed to it. Just a misconception. I don't believe he is the second coming or whatever, but I do believe he means well with his teachings. Earlier traditions were certainly cult like, but now the daughter is taking over. Again, I'm not a moonie I am just someone marrying into it.
@eyeofthestorm67 Doesn't really make a difference. We're dating, engaged and getting married. Still not a moonie myself nor will I ever consider myself one.
@goscott4 I can't tell if you support or are against the Zeitgeist movie, but since you seem to be a Christian, I'll assume you are against the Zeitgeist movie. I think Zeitgeist is a perfect example of both human ignorance and gullibility. The movie is utter nonsense...
I agree..so are moonies to utterly gullible and ignorant.
The UC is akin North Koreas' cult of personality and even more dangerous considering the media outlets owned by Rev. Moon.
It scares me that so many Humans appear to be pre-disposed to mind slavery on such a massive scale whether it be from Religious,Govenment or Media Personalitys.
@goscott4 man, so many Christians think they understand Revelations, one of the most complex and confusing books in the Bible. You understand nothing...
@Loew01 Let's see my good man! You are 31 yo? WOW! Are YOU sure you have lived long enough or had enough experience in life to tell me ANYTHING?
It took me 40 years to get to where I am now, in my life of faith, of course you saw every event that happened in my life and can tell me all about ME, so good to meet YOU! REV 18
It's obvious what you are trying to do here. You are trying to move the discussion to a a level where you are discussing contents (e.g. bible versus divine principle) instead of form (e.g. normal religion versus destrucive cult). The problem with moonies and the unification church is NOT its contents, but rather the fact that it is a destructive cult that uses mind control techniques and brainwashing techniques to convert ordinary people into members.
@bcn001 I find your attempt to distinguish between content and form confusing... how can a religious group have a good content and message yet be destructive? Also, what are the conditions that define us as a 'destructive cult'? What have we done that makes you feel we are destructive?
You keep mentioned 'brainwashed' and 'mind control'. You repeat it so often I get the impression it's been 'implanted' into your brain (that's a sacrastic pun, fyi. I don't really believe that ;).
@Loew01 Ok, I will attempt to explain. The way a destructive cult works is that the methods (form) is everything, whereas the appearance (contents) is just an excuse to make it look like something it is not. So the contents in themselves do not matter. What matters is the methods used to recruit, reprogram and retain members that are then used to obtain money. So it matters little if the content is religious, political or business. There is no real difference between Scientology and the moonies
@bcn001 Again, I see only very vague references to sinister methods of recruitment, 'reprograming', and some special method of retention all for the purpose of getting money. Again I would refer to Dr. Barker's book and research, since she actually bothered to study all of our recruiting and 'retaining' methods.
My father owned his own business, then went back to law school and is now a lawyer. My mother did the same and is now a teacher. Both of them tythe 10%... because they're brainwashed?
@Loew01 I find interesting how of all the extensive academic literature on the Moon organisation you only mention Dr. Barker's book, which has been proven that it was funded by the Moon organisation. Why not mention the real books on the Moon organisation, such as "Combatting Cult Control" by Steven Hassan and "Heartbreak and Rage" by Gordon Neufeld. Let the readers of these posts read both accounts from both sides.
@bcn001 Because both those books you mentioned are not academic at all. I've listented to their authors, and I've read one of Neufeld's books. There is so much exaggeration and some flat out lies, that it is kind of a pathetic attempt to discredit us. You see, there is a process called 'peer review' which helps keep things objective. Dr. Barker is respected and her work is reviewed, while Hassan and Neufeld are just expressing opinions, and no real academic takes their work seriously...
@Loew01 I don't believe Hassan has ever had any need or desire to discredit the moonies. His writings and his work do not reflect any desire or need to discredit anyone, only a genuine desire to help people who are trapped in a destructive cult or who have managed to escape but have lasting psychological scars. Tell me what part of his 2 books you find biased or inaccurate.
Dr. Barker was funded by the moonies, so no wonder that her "findings" put the moonies in a positive light.
@bcn001 "only a genuine desire to help people who are trapped in a destructive cult or who have managed to escape but have lasting psychological scars". I see, and his $250hr/fee is just out of the kindness of his heart? Again, Dr. Barker was not funded by us. To fund something means we would have had to sit down with her and ask her to do research on us, and offered to pay her a certain amount if she did it. I'm guessing we paid some of her fees, but a high % did not come from us...
@Loew01 It does not matter what percentage of fees or expenses went to Barker. Accepting only one dollar makes her work invalid, as it is dependant on the payer. When an author receives money from an organisation, it becomes more difficult to criticise the organisation.
Regarding Mr Hassan's fees, this is his profession, and any counselor who works should be paid. We all get paid for doing our jobs. His interest in choosing this profession was to help people who are trapped in a cult.
@bcn001 Do you know how Mr. Hassan's fees compare to real psychologists? One's with PhD degrees? His price is incredibly high, on par with high paid lawyers.
I've spent an hour looking through my college library of on-line peer-reviewed articles. Nothing from Hassan or Ross, plenty from Dr. Barker and other respected and academic authors. I think anyone who reads our conversation will realize that your views are not academically or scientifically based, but a mix of psuedo science & propaganda
@Loew01 Readers of our posts are more intelligent than that, and they will certainly be able to see through your attempts to discredit Hassan and others only on the basis that they presumably are not "peer-reviewed". So if a person is attacked and has evidence of it, do you discredit him and claim it is only propaganda because his account is not "peer-reviewed" by an academic professor? What nonsense
Also, you discredit Hassan based on your assessment that his fees are too high for your liking?
@bcn001 The reason peer-review matters in a case like Hassan, is because he is making a psychological claim about how something works. However, his claim is not backed by real psychologists. Real scientists need to have their work be objective and based on facts, which is the whole point of the peer-review process. The fact that Hassan has no peer-review articles shows that his work is non-scientific. The fees are just an additional point about why he would be so committed to attacking us...
@bcn001 All the claims made by Margaret Singer (who actually was a real psychologist) have been debunked as non-scientific is regards to the way cults operate. Hassan merely took Singer's 1970 theories and modified them slightly, but he is still living in the 70s. Most of our members have gotten married, gotten jobs, and have integrated into society. We still hold our beliefs, we still look for new members, but we are not that different from any other religious group in our modern society...
@Loew01 Mr. Hassan is also a real psychologist. His material for his two books is not derived from Margaret Singer's work, but rather from analysing his real experience in having gone through a mind-control experience in the Moon organisation during a time period of 2 and a half years. He rose to be a leader, so he knows quite well what went on in this cult.
As to his theoretical basis, his starting point is Lifton's book on Chinese mind control, which I recommend.
@bcn001 Hassan is a counselor, not a psychologist. There is a huge difference. As far as I know, he does not have an undergraduate or a post graduate in psychology. He doesn't belong to any psychology organizations, as far as I know. He hasn't written any psychological papers... so how is he a psychologist? Because he says he is?
@Loew01 Wrong, wrong, wrong. Mr Hassan holds a Masters degree in counseling psychology from Cambridge College Massacussets. So he has studied psychology both as undergraduate and as post-graduate. He is also a Licensed Mental Health Counselor.
@bcn001 Again, I find it ironic that you accuse me of being brainwashed and yet you are so easily misled by propaganda and lack of evidence. Mr. Hassan's degree is a M.Ed (Masters in Education), with a focus on Counselling Psycology. His undergraduate work is not listed, but I am pretty confident it wasn't in psycology... also, the conselling psycology part of his M.Ed seems to be added, because when I researched him 4 years ago it merely stated "counselling". Either way, a M.Ed is not a M.A.
@Loew01 After Mr Hassan was able to escape the Unification Church cult he was 21 years old and decided to study psychology in order to understand in a profound way the mechanisms of mind control and brainwashing. Professor Robert Jay Lifton is the person who suggested to him that he should study psychology in order to explain to us what had actually happened to him during his time in the moonies cult, and by extension be able to explain what usually happens when one is under mind control.
"Escape?" What a nonsense. The UC is not a prison where you need to escape. People come and go. There is no one guarding the doors with a machine gun. The UC is about true love, not force. OK?
However, in Japan the UC members get kidnapped and confined, illegally. Those members can NOT escape, and the police turn a blind eye. It is organized crime, by "christian" minsters in collaboration with communists.
Why not stand up for the human rights of those violated people?
@Loew01 You are claiming that the Moon organisation has changed and that it no longer operates as it did in the 1970s. If that were the case, I would be joyful, but I tend to be suspicious about this type of "change" claims. I was watching earlier a video on Scientology where Paulette Cooper explains how she was told by Scientology in the late 70s that it had changed completely and that therefore she should stop writing bad stuff about it. She believed them, but it turned out not to be true.
@Loew01 (cont.) Just another thing regarding the idea of the Moon organisation no longer being what it was. If this is so, I would have expected you to admit to all these facts about the organisation I have been arguing, in the sense of saying "ok, we used to deceptively recruit, we used to use mind-control, we used hypnotic techniques to implant phobias in members, but we no longer do so".
I have a question for you whose answer will be revealing: Do you consider Scientology a dangerous cult?
@bcn001 we've changed how we operate, but our theology has always been the same. We never used mind control techniques and we never recruited deceptively.
As far as Scientology goes, I don't know any Scientologist, so I have no basis to judge.
@Loew01 I don't personally know any scientologist either, but that does not impair me in my ability to know what Scientology actually is. In the same way that I have never personally known any nazis, but that does not impair me in seeing what the Nazi party was and condemning everything they did.
So you do have a solid basis to judge Scientology and it is worrying and meaningful that you do not condemn them without hesitation.
@bcn001 The reason you don't need to know a Nazi personally is because their activities are well documented and researched (again, plenty of peer-reviewed articles). A single picture of a concentration camp is all one needs to understand the end result of Nazi thinking... but I have seen no evidence of Sceintology being destructive or abusive, other than from people like you and groups that are obviously "anti-cult", and I have very good reason to suspect their evidence and neutrality...
@Loew01 A single picture of the state Scientology left the body of Lisa MchPherson should make you think.
I don't consider myself anti-cult. I don't believe there is such a thing as being anti-cult. All I am against is mind control and brainwashing, so I am against any group or person who uses these techniques to obtain economic gains from another person. In this sense I am against Scientology and the groups created by Mr Moon. Please read "Combatting Cult Mind Control" before you comment.
@Loew01 it was bad, they had no reason to act the way they did. my buddy and i were so scared we chain smoked a pack of cigarettes, and i don't even smoke. plus i can't drive down that road anymore.
Can you go into some details. What did they do and why did they do it? How can they keep you from driving down a public road? Sounds kinda wild. Glad you're safe.
@ar4216 my buddy and i were lost, we went into their drive way to turn around, they blocked us in with a truck. they claimed they have been following us since we turned onto the road(not a dead end or no outlet). then he demanded for our id when we were like, let us back up. so we said no, because neither of us had it on us, and he got a little violent(grabbed at my buddy's throat) after yelling at us for like 15 minutes he backed up and went back to his spot. scared the SHIT out of us
From Wikipedia (apparently quite a few Moonies in Westchester):
Irvington is also home to a number of members of the Unification Church, including several high-ranking families. There are several Church-owned estates and buildings located in Irvington, or in the neighboring village of Tarrytown. Reverend Sun Myung Moon, the founder of the Church and its spiritual leader, has a large private residence with an estate of 17.67 acres, the former Frederic Clark Sayles estate, on East Sunnyside Lane.
It's weird that they would say they'd been following you- why would they even do that? I wonder if the police are in their back pocket. That's what happened down in Clearwater, Florida with the Scientologists. They were always hiring off duty police for functions (thus generously supplementing their income), so whenever they had a problem they would sick the police on people. Wonder if the police in Westchester are similarly corrupt or if you could file a complaint. They sound out of control.
I wonder what kind of "Moonies" they were. Never met a violent one. And if one claims to be Moonie, but acts violent, then he acts against all the teachings of Rev Moon. W
Would you accuse Jesus for some violence committed by some catholic person?
And even within the religious realm different denominations call each other names, as they do with Unifciation Church. This is the most ridiculous thing.
One of the worst accusation is to say that the Unification Church is no religion. That the way that some people chose to undermine religious freedom.
But remember: Freedom is the freedom of the one who is different, not only of the one who agrees with us. That would not be freedom at all.
Atheists always believe that spiritual experiences are all just phantasies. And religious believers cannot understand how someone can NOT believe in God.
The best would be to not only to tolerate, but to love each other. Unfortunately so often both sides call the other side "idiot" or worse names. That is not helpful for anyone. Let us respect each other.
well, let me encourage you than :) i was not sure about your sarcasm at moment...( though recognize it was high :) ) , you are really brave.
When people try to search some negative information about True Parents oops here you are with your clear message... that's a great thing i consider... Bravo !!!
i wish follow your example if my English would be so good :) i am actually eastern european too
DP and Bible: I think the DP is mostly true. 95%? I think the Bible is very credible, if not taken literally... also, the reason the DP uses the Bible is because it's explaining the 'true' purpose of the Bible and what lessons should be learned from it. Also, from a more objective perspective, it's an amazing work of art, and although grossly exaggerated, it's also an amazing historical record that few ancient texts can duplicate...
My question here is how specifically does DP explain the true purpose of the bible and how is it convincing? I'm sorry, I remember DP quoting various parts of the bible but I can't remember any specific quotes. The one I vaguely remember is giving "evidence" that the second coming will come from Korea, by quoting a passage from Jesus, that the sun or angel will rise from the east. Sorry this is vague, you don't have to dig through DP if you don't want to.
The second coming section of the DP is the most shaking, in my opinion. I think the reason for this is obvious; it's trying to convince Koreans that the Messiah should come to Korea. A pretty easy sell if you ask me ;)
The specific way the DP explains the Bible is by giving the stories an underlying theme and connecting them. Best example is Moses, and all the 40 day conditions in his life: 40 years in Palace, 40 years in one desert, 40 days spying, 2X 40 day fasts...
Anyway, the DP then goes on to explain how Jesus' 40 day fast in the wilderness is directly tied to Moses 40 day fasts and desert wanderings. Another thing the DP does is explain the 6 day creation story and compare it to the current scientific understanding of creation. Very interesting section, which lends a lot of credibility to the Bible, in my opinion. Basically, the general order of the Bible story is correct, which is different than most origin stories.
As far as the 2nd coming section, I've heard that Korea was not the only nation the messiah could come to... for example, I heard Ireland was another candidate, and Ireland fulfills a lot of the same conditions. I think the big difference was the independence movements after WWI. Ireland's was violent, whereas Korea's was peaceful (March 1, 1919 movement). Father was literally conceived right after this moment. That's my own theory though... Anyway, DP is meant to be flexible, imo...
Back to the DP and Bible, another impressive connection is the Parallels of History lecture, which shows how Christian history parallels in many ways Jewish history. Jacob and his 12 sons, Jesus and his 12 disciples. 800 years after Abraham, Saul is crowned king. 800 AD Charlemagne is crowned Emperor. These are incredible coincidences if there is not underlying cause behind them...
Spiritual Influence: I think there is a lot of influence from spirit world, which is how I think God and Satan influence society at this moment. Each person makes the final decision, but I think most people's decisions are made in ignorance of what's best for them. I think the major cause of this ignorance is spiritual influence... God's trying to get thru this block to educate people, and when he succeeds, people get dreams, visions, etc.
Evolution/Big Bang: I would say evolution is mostly true... I think it could be 'the how, but not the why' of creation, which I think is generally how science works. The only thing I'm not sure of is human beings, namely Adam and Eve. I think what separates people from animals is that we have a spirit, so this is something that didn't evolve but was infused into us... so whether this was infused into a primitive set of homo-sapiens or whether A&E were created is some unique way, I don't know...
In my experience UC members seem to have widely varying stances on all of these, so for your answers do you think the average member would agree with you?
A good set of questions, so I'll try my best to answer them...
Do you believe science to be compatible with UC theology? Yes. Science and religion are both attempts to describe objective reality, and when they come into conflict, then one of them is observing objective reality incorrectly. As far as I know, UC theology has not made any claims that are unscientific. If I'm wrong, please give me a couple examples... I'm a huge fan of science, and think it's necessary for human happiness...
Okay, well I believe Adam and Eve not being a metaphor is unscientific for one, but many members believe fully in evolution. I did. Personally I was only told about the A&E story growing up. When I learned about evolution in school and asked my parents, only then was I taught that evolution is true but God was behind it. Moon apparently said a lot of interesting things back in the day, one of them that sticks out is that the Jews paid indemnity through the holocaust.
hmm... well, I've watched a few scientific programs where they talk about an original ancestor. I mean, logically there had to be the 'first' homo-sapien, and I think if you see sentientism as spiritual, then it makes sense that the spirit would be given to a man and a woman. Most members do believe fully in evolution, and I believe fully in evolution up until Adam and Eve, and maybe including them. I'm just not sure... but that's just me. I also think being an atheist is unscientific ;)
Being half Jewish, I hope that what I say about the holocaust isn't seen as anti-semetic, but our ideology teaches that the Jews had one responsibility, which they failed. It's not that God sentenced 6 million of them to death, but that he could no longer protect them from Satan, who considered them the biggest threat for thousands of years. If God could stop it, he would have... What Rev. Moon said 'back in the day' is no different than what he says now...
anyway, when it comes to evolution, I think the main issue is 'sentientism', or the point when human beings became something more than animals. Of course, materialists believe that this is also evolutionary, through a slow development of mental capacities in the brain, but psychology is still mostly guesswork, so I haven't come across anything remotely conclusive... especially concerning psychological traits and genetics...
Sorry dude my internet cut off last night while I was typing this up.
I don't see the "first human" idea so black and white. There were some generations of hominids that anthropologists would consider to be the "earliest known beings to be classified with our own species" but it really is a gradual process. We modern humans are still in the process. Many modern groups have adapted subtle but distinctly different traits, not related to "race". Are they human? Its debatable and it always has been.
This brings me to the soul, which there is little if any scientific evidence for. If life and homonids evolved gradually (and after looking it up for myself I fully believe this to be true) then the trait of souls would have to have been acquired gradually through many generations. Logically, I don't think anything can have "part of a soul". You believe that we reached a milestone where God gave us souls, yet there are soulless chimps who are smarter in some abilities than many humans.
Advanced animals are capable of empathy and thought. I can show you links if you wish. Anyway why should humans be the only ones with souls when we're not too far from animals?
Its very possible that nobody has a soul. We have been able to recreate "out of body experiences" and "near death experiences" in labs by using a helmet with rotating magnetic fields that confuse the subjects' brains. I can elaborate later but the assumption that humans are special enough for souls isn't backed up.
Sorry about the random Jewish statement, that was the beginning of my next point but I was interrupted in posting it. Continued: one of them that sticks out is that the Jews paid indemnity through the holocaust. Other than being controversial, this can't be true because the idea of race is entirely socially constructed, there are no hereditary traits in DNA that define a race. I think this applies to the effort to match Japanese to Americans as well.
Sure, a mixed race child helps bring social barriers down but I don't think it has any spiritual significance in regards to the war. Nothing spiritual or biological connects the Jews, Japanese, or Americans as "a distinct people". They all created eachother by perceiving the others as different. As for atheism being unscientific, yes I understand the idea that something, the big bang, coming from nothing is very unscientific. But what about God's origins?
Did he have a beginning, and from what? If he has been around forever that breaks quite a few scientific and logical rules. Actually many renowned physicists believe that its possible for small particles to appear out of nowhere in vaccuum. They also believe that very rarely, more complex things pop into existence, and chances are once in an eternity a new big bang should begin. Link if you want.
In general, Moonie theology is compatible with science (like you said the teachings are flexible); these are some examples of teachings I could think of that might contradict science. I will get to my main personal argument and the DP/bible points tomorrow hopefully, which combines the questions on science compatibility, evolution and the big bang, and spiritual influence.
As far as God's origins go, it again gets down to definitions... all material things have causes. The 'belief' of physicists that something can just appear out of nothing is an attempt to create an exemption to this scientific fact, which is contradictory. There is no evidence for such a belief ;) It's just the only possible conclusion... since they reject the notion of anything 'non-material' which does not need a cause. There needs to be some pre-existing energy or force which is non-material.
Isn't skin color hereditary? Just wondering... but the whole point of the Jews is that although race is a human construct, the Jews were able to create a separate identity that was easily identifiable. Also, there are certain DNA traits that come through to some extent ('Jewish' nose), and for example, it's possible to tell the difference between Japanese and Koreans when you live in Asia for awhile.
so, I don't think it's entirely true that race is a purely social construct. However, the point of the Jewish identity and mixed marriage has very little to do with DNA. It is again a spiritual AND social matter, and since I believe in spiritual causes, the Jews being identified by such a spiritual connection is very plausible...
'indemnity' is probably one of the most misunderstood words in our movement. Again, in our belief, it was Satan, not God, who wanted the Jews to pay 'indemnity'...
When you're talking about advanced animals, you're talking about dolphins and chimps. If you study social sciences, there is a HUGE leap between those animals and human thought capacity. There really is no comparison. Also, there is circumstantial evidence of the soul, which is based on eye-witness testimony and personal experience. Not 'scientific' perse, but again, definition of spiritual is the non-material...
for the soul argument, atheists tend to follow empirical thinking when making arguments against religion. In other words, everything must be concluded from evidence. However, there is also the 'rational' school of thought, which is the deductive system of thinking. people get confused because the word rational is used in many contexts, but the 'soul' is a complex philosophical argument that scientists really can't be involved in, since science is empirical before it is rational...
"little if any scientific evidence for" that's a favorite phrase of scientists, but I don't think it's logical to only believe in things that there is scientific evidence for, especially since the definition of spirit world is 'non-material' or specifically outside the realm of science...
"Are they human? Its debatable and it always has been. " I'd love to know an example of this... because it's quite a shocking statement. I know you didn't mean it this way, but it sounds similar to the kind of dehumanizing statements that are used in ethnic struggles... unless you're referring to "mix-gender" or something along those lines.
@Loew01 Examples? Certainly, I will message links to you. Of course I didn't mean that one variation is superior to others, just that they contradict conventional wisdom that suggests humans to be more alike than we are. What I meant to be debatable is the definition of human.
Eh, I can show you many who don't think its logical to believe in something in which there is no scientific evidence for, so I guess it really boils down to opinion on faith; some feel it and some don't.
@trippyshiitake However there is empirical evidence that the brain and certain conditions are capable of naturally producing "spiritual experiences" which I alluded to earlier. I disagree that the soul must be a rational argument. Even if souls exist and are immaterial, science can and has analyzed the results that humans claim to feel. I argue that one must use both empirical and rational thought in all decision making.
@trippyshiitake We take in the world with empiricism and analyze the data into information with rationalism. So its illogical to assume that souls are solely in the domain of rationalism, because without experiences we have very little to reason with. Likewise, scientific theories cannot be completely empirical as we need reason to recognize patterns from the data and construct predictions. Even circumstantial evidence is more empirical than rational.
@trippyshiitake I also sent links for advanced animals. The Darwinian thoughts that animals have degrees of intelligence correlating to their level of sophistication, is gaining ground. "The great leap" with modern humans has many likely explanations. However even among different species of the homo genus we see chronologically advanced degrees of intelligence, showing that there was no transformation between a single generation that led to our species' current level of intelligence.
@trippyshiitake So do you have evidence that refutes quantum physics or have you studied the behavior of physicists and concluded that they make up conclusions to support their beliefs? Because I may have understated this point with the use of "belief" and I can substantiate this point with evidence, can you? I hope you didn't assume that they made an assumption.
@trippyshiitake Skin color is a genetic adaptation to a different climate that is hereditary. I disagree that there is a separate identity for any race. "Racial traits" including the Jewish nose are DNA traits that tend to be but aren't always concentrated within each group simply because members of each tend to marry members of the same group which exaggerate the traits. But there are so many exceptions, and there is no uniform biological identity that all members of a race share.
@trippyshiitake I think the variations can also apply to the claimed spiritual connections. In fact if there is a spiritual connection between races I don't see why there shouldn't be one between people of the same faith. But this matter also may just boil down to opinion. Nevertheless, biologically humanity is its own race and it is only one race. What we perceive as races are simply results of variation and differentiation.
Agreed. I think we were only talking about race because I was confused by your statement that we don't know what it means to be 'human'. I realize you were referring to the distance between humans and animals, or basically you were giving the 'we're just advanced animals' argument.
If we're going to start talking about quantum physics, I think we'll both need to go get PhDs in physics, which quite honestly I don't have the free time to do right now, although I am considering it as a future option. The main point, however, is that all people make assumptions about life and so their conclusions are clouded by it. Did you know at some German universities you are not supposed to have a hypothesis for your research paper, because this will effect your conclusion?
@Loew01 To do a PhD in Physics your undergraduate and/or postgraduate degree must be in a cognate subject such as Applied Math/Engineering. I think your undergraduate work is mostly in the field of International Political Economy and Religious Studies. There are certain UK universities which will allow you to do a postgraduate diploma, which is basically a conversion program if your undergraduate degree is not related to Physics/Applied Math.
@minutemenicbm3 As far as I'm aware, US colleges do not offer any chance of part-time study for a PhD in Physics. You'd be much better off in the UK if you intend to study for a PhD on a part-time basis. I would imagine the situation is pretty much the same in other EU countries, but I don't know for sure as my knowledge of Spanish, French & German is virtually non-existent. Unless you are able to obtain funding from one of the 7 UK Research Councils you will not be able to study full-time.
@Loew01 I believe that EU nationals are eligible to apply for a research grant from any one of those organisations; but studentships are difficult to come by and highly competitive. Given that your wife is an Irish national it would not be too difficult for you to obtain an Irish passport, but you still have to fulfill the residency requirement which is usually 3 years.
@Loew01 Otherwise, you might consider studying on a part-time basis, which would allow you to earn an income as well as pursue your academic goals. The UK is a world leader in the provision of part-time advanced degree courses at some of the most prestigious universities in The Times Higher Educational Supplement World Ranking of Universities. As a major competitor in the arena of international politics/economics I suppose Britain has no choice but to punch above it's weight to compete with
@Loew01 to compete with much larger economies such as Germany, Japan and the United States. But on the other hand, America tends to be more conservative in respect of it's provision of postgraduate degrees. I suppose America would never stoop to that level given that it's GDP/GNP is comfortably well ahead of any of it's major competitors i.e. The Harvard Extension School offers an ALB & ALM program to it's students, which is not recognized the world over.
Hey, thanks for the extensive message. Actually, when I say 'future plans' for a PhD in Physics, I was really thinking of doing it much later, like in 20 or 30 years, when I've hopefully more wealthy and can take the time off to do it full time. It is more something I would kind of like to do, rather than something I really intend on doing. More likely, I'll try to get a PhD in Diplomacy or, if possible, Economics. Either that or become a lawyer. Still not decided. For now, I'm finishing my MA..
Interesting points, and I appreciated the links. Something I would like clarity on, however, is the fact that the most intelligent animals aren't always related to the human family. For example, one of the articles was about a parrot. I also know that dolphins and pigs top the chart of animal intelligence after chimps. It makes sense that there are degrees of intelligence with degrees of complexity, but the 'great leap' is undeniable. It's more than just intelligence, too. art, poetry, etc...
I agree with your statement here, actually. I wasn't trying to imply that the idea of souls was purely rational, because I think it is also empirical. Rather than soul, actually, I should say spirit, because this is the Unification view of the soul. People see, hear, and feel these things. In other words, they observe them. It is circumstantial, but it is still empirical...
Hey, sorry I haven't replied for awhile. I like your points and would love to meet you in person someday. Again, I agree with "one must use both empirical and rational thought in all decision making". I don't think we disagree on the value of both empirical and rational thinking. I think we disagree about the conclusions people come to based on the evidence. I have spoken to many people who have personal eye-witness accounts of spiritual experiences. That is empirical evidence to them... (cont)
(cont) so I've talked to many people who personally have seen and heard spiritual things. They weren't induced to see them by any chemical altering, and they were not crazy or strange in any way. So either hallucinating is much more common than people think, or there is some merit to what they are saying... also, I find it odd that people are trying to explain a phenomenon that they themselves have not experienced directly. Who is more likely to understand the experience?
Do you believe in love? There's not really any scientific evidence for it, other than claiming it's merely a set of chemical reactions. My question then would be are the chemical reactions the result of the feeling of love, or the cause? In other words, which comes first, the feeling or the chemical reactions? Has anyone tested that?
oops, sorry, deleted your questions... Misclicked... was not intentional. Do you mind reposting them? Gay marriage: no way to simplify it, but in general homosexuality is a spiritual problem more than a physical one. It's immoral, and although a unique kind of struggle, it still is something that needs to be overcome in order to be truly happy and to have a relationship with God. I've spent a lot of time looking at scientific research and trying to understand this issue. That's my conclusion...
oops, sorry for not answering this part of the question before... I don't think there are unmarried members, not that I know of, unless they joined after they were able to have kids. In our theology however, even if one doesn't marry in this life, they'll be married eventually in the afterlife (spirit world), so I think they would be fully accepted, although their situation would be unique... marrying is a central part of our belief, so anyone who is single is seen as a 'matching candidate' :)
Rev Moon sells llittle children for sex to rich powerful people especially politcians, He gave millions to the Bush campaign, He is also involved with selling guns and drugs via black market throughout the globe. In the New Yorker hotel in the
70s there were bodies found in elevator shaft after he held a ceremony. Authorities believed they were sacrifices. Good luck finding the truth about him and his sick family Moon has bought out almost every domain space that blast the truth about him.
THe kids sold for sex are introduced to the masses of rich sickos as "Little Angels," WHICH THEY ARE BUT THEY ARE NOT TO BE DAMAGED BY DEMONS. PULL YOURSELF OUT IF YOU DO NOT KNOW ANY OF THIS BEFORE YOU ARE JUDGED ALONG WITH THEM. FORE YOU TOO WILL BE SMASHED INTO NOTHINGNESS BY OUR REAL CREATOR AND OUR TRUE MESSIAH. I PRAY THAT THIS HAPPENS SOON EVEN IF IT MEANS I SHALL PERISH FOR HATING THOSE INVOLVED IN RAPE AND MURDER,
Did you say that Unificationists aren't allowed to date? As in go to a movie or something innocent?
anyway, I was wondering....are there Unificationists who never marry? Are they accepted as full members of your religious community?
BTW, I have been watching Unification church services on vimeo with Hyung Jin Moon as pastor of the Seoul UC. It is interesting...but the singing is beautiful!
Unificationists are not allowed to date. Many do, but it is clearly against the rules. Our parents arrange our marriages, and before we get married, we're not supposed to have any 'romantic' experience with the other gender.
However, going to a movie is fine, as long as there's no kissing or holding hands involved. It's a fine line, though, but the question is what is the motivation for the two of you going alone? We often go to movies together in groups, but just two is a lil dangerous...
I think you're paranoid. There is nothing wrong with dating. I see nothing wrong with a man and woman kissing or holding hands. What is so dangerous about two people being alone, especially if their motive is to have sex? This happens all the time, especially in a free country like UK and the United States.
The whole point of not dating in our movement is to avoid two people being alone for the purpose of having sex. It's irresponsible sexual relationships that are harmful to people's ability to form long lasting meaningful relationships. You're right that it is rampant in countries like the UK and US, but it has a harmful effect...
I find this pretty hilarious and amusing. It's true, you do know how to convert a moonie. The first method is the most common one since the power of love is stronger than the power of the principle. I guess some unlucky people were missing out on the commandment or the power of the principle. Or they feel resentful and don't make any attempt to understand and question our movement.
my boss is a moonie and I feel like everything he learned in life he heard at some seminar, Oh I'm joking but it's no laughing matter, all he does is pinch money from his workers, being brainwashed has nothing to do with ideology in this case. A religion shouldn't be based on growth and success but truth, I happen to relate to some moonie ideas, well, except for the whole second jesus thing, but you all just seem so sheltered, look at facts; kidnapping charges, etc. I worship no corporate empire
facts = kidnapping charges?? first of all, a 'charge' isn't a fact. second of all, you must be confused, because it isn't us that is accused of kidnapping. It's the 'deprogrammers'. The only thing we've been accused of is 'brainwashing', which we've been vindicated for.
You seem to feel that growth and success have nothing to do with truth... yet if something is true, it should grow and be successful, no?
this one is a bit zany - jumped from your first couple of monologues to this one, and was hoping to join you again for hoon dok hae (hwae?) - I also read the bible x7, cover to cover, and then gave up, only dipping in very occasionally - but I do like to encourage and be encouraged, as Paul tells us, so keep up the good work, with more improvements please
LOL. I was waiting for one of these! Don't worry, I'm going to do a whole episode on Zeitgeisters... but it's pretty irrational from beginning to end :P
This is hilarious! I'm an atheist ex-moonie, also born into the church, but a bit older than Lowe01. Just found this after googling moonie for fun. Love it! I think the intellectual method only works on the very smartest of moonies. Remember, most moonies are feel-good types who are pretty irrational, so the marriage method is probably going to be a lot more successful in general. But every once in a while a critically thinking moonie can be found, and converted out. Best of luck!
Aw man, you left? sorry to hear that... you're missing all the fun! ;P
That being said, if I did leave, I would either go for the Atheist camp or the Mormons. Atheists are pretty rational (almost as rational as moonies) , except for the Zeitgeist crowd. Mormons are nicer though. That being said, I'd be a Mormon and just pretend to believe in it. I'd just go for the perks... So I'd guess I'd have to be a closet atheist-Mormon.
Yeah, I'm really missing out! Heck, if I would go back I'm sure I would be taken right back into the fold, shipped off to Chung Pyung for a good old butt-smacking cleansing and then I could go back to being my old sanctimonious self...ahh. No seriously, I don't miss the church's weirdness at all, although from time to time I miss singing the holy songs in harmony with lots of half-asians...those were the days. Dude, mormons are even dumber than moonies, don't do it!!
lol, yeah, a nice butt-smacking is always good for the soul. And we take back everyone with open arms.
You're kinda affirming my point about Mormons being nicer than Atheists. You guys are getting a rep for being a bit insulting... I can kinda understand why, but really, have faith in your moral and intellectual superiority! No reason to be insulting if you own the moral high ground :)
aww shucks, didn't mean to sound insulting....I meant dumb in a sort of "nice" way...but I guess it didn't sound that nice, really, at all...lemme see if I can figure out how to edit a comment...then maybe I can "restore" myself!
This vid is amusing ! Watched your video's to gain some understanding of what Moonie's believe in as I had never heard of the Unification Church until a month ago. I've just had to read Eileen Barker's study (The Making Of A Moonie) and I have to critically review it & give a presentation in class. Thanks for your video's, I have a greater understanding although still have much research to do.
5 minutes is a good target time. and your use of "humor" is quite clever in this audience...going to get to the cute little metaphor on page 361 - 363 of DP? That is where you can find the one that sorta like the Aesop's Fable "Belly and the Other Members."
Utterly funny this.
TheRavnstrup 7 months ago
I'm dating a Moonie and I don't even believe in any religon. I've watched the sermon or whatever you call it and its definitely not a cult. No, I'm not "Brainwashed" I'm not even committed to it. Just a misconception. I don't believe he is the second coming or whatever, but I do believe he means well with his teachings. Earlier traditions were certainly cult like, but now the daughter is taking over. Again, I'm not a moonie I am just someone marrying into it.
secondborn916 9 months ago
@secondborn916 in the beginning you said you were dating and at the end of your paragraph your getting married into it
eyeofthestorm67 9 months ago
@eyeofthestorm67 Doesn't really make a difference. We're dating, engaged and getting married. Still not a moonie myself nor will I ever consider myself one.
secondborn916 9 months ago
@secondborn916 same here im not gonna be a moonie ever
eyeofthestorm67 9 months ago
bull shit
chadkorchinski 1 year ago
Google search: Zeitgest Anti Christ Movie REV 18
goscott4 1 year ago
@goscott4 I can't tell if you support or are against the Zeitgeist movie, but since you seem to be a Christian, I'll assume you are against the Zeitgeist movie. I think Zeitgeist is a perfect example of both human ignorance and gullibility. The movie is utter nonsense...
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 I have not said WHO I am, I love to see people jump to conclusions based on NO EVIDENCE REV 18
goscott4 1 year ago
@Loew01
I agree..so are moonies to utterly gullible and ignorant.
The UC is akin North Koreas' cult of personality and even more dangerous considering the media outlets owned by Rev. Moon.
It scares me that so many Humans appear to be pre-disposed to mind slavery on such a massive scale whether it be from Religious,Govenment or Media Personalitys.
BrodyLuv2 1 year ago
@BrodyLuv2 Ah, finally a half decent comment from you. Still baseless and ignorant, but not vulgar and pointless, which is an improvement.
Your comments shown that you don't really know anything about Rev. Moon or the UC. It is always easy to call people that disagree with you ignorant...
Loew01 1 year ago
2:19sec.....2nd Chapter problem Homie....more study for you? REV 18
goscott4 1 year ago
@goscott4 man, so many Christians think they understand Revelations, one of the most complex and confusing books in the Bible. You understand nothing...
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 Let's see my good man! You are 31 yo? WOW! Are YOU sure you have lived long enough or had enough experience in life to tell me ANYTHING?
It took me 40 years to get to where I am now, in my life of faith, of course you saw every event that happened in my life and can tell me all about ME, so good to meet YOU! REV 18
goscott4 1 year ago
It's obvious what you are trying to do here. You are trying to move the discussion to a a level where you are discussing contents (e.g. bible versus divine principle) instead of form (e.g. normal religion versus destrucive cult). The problem with moonies and the unification church is NOT its contents, but rather the fact that it is a destructive cult that uses mind control techniques and brainwashing techniques to convert ordinary people into members.
bcn001 1 year ago
@bcn001 I find your attempt to distinguish between content and form confusing... how can a religious group have a good content and message yet be destructive? Also, what are the conditions that define us as a 'destructive cult'? What have we done that makes you feel we are destructive?
You keep mentioned 'brainwashed' and 'mind control'. You repeat it so often I get the impression it's been 'implanted' into your brain (that's a sacrastic pun, fyi. I don't really believe that ;).
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 Ok, I will attempt to explain. The way a destructive cult works is that the methods (form) is everything, whereas the appearance (contents) is just an excuse to make it look like something it is not. So the contents in themselves do not matter. What matters is the methods used to recruit, reprogram and retain members that are then used to obtain money. So it matters little if the content is religious, political or business. There is no real difference between Scientology and the moonies
bcn001 1 year ago
@bcn001 Again, I see only very vague references to sinister methods of recruitment, 'reprograming', and some special method of retention all for the purpose of getting money. Again I would refer to Dr. Barker's book and research, since she actually bothered to study all of our recruiting and 'retaining' methods.
My father owned his own business, then went back to law school and is now a lawyer. My mother did the same and is now a teacher. Both of them tythe 10%... because they're brainwashed?
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 I find interesting how of all the extensive academic literature on the Moon organisation you only mention Dr. Barker's book, which has been proven that it was funded by the Moon organisation. Why not mention the real books on the Moon organisation, such as "Combatting Cult Control" by Steven Hassan and "Heartbreak and Rage" by Gordon Neufeld. Let the readers of these posts read both accounts from both sides.
bcn001 1 year ago
@bcn001 Because both those books you mentioned are not academic at all. I've listented to their authors, and I've read one of Neufeld's books. There is so much exaggeration and some flat out lies, that it is kind of a pathetic attempt to discredit us. You see, there is a process called 'peer review' which helps keep things objective. Dr. Barker is respected and her work is reviewed, while Hassan and Neufeld are just expressing opinions, and no real academic takes their work seriously...
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 I don't believe Hassan has ever had any need or desire to discredit the moonies. His writings and his work do not reflect any desire or need to discredit anyone, only a genuine desire to help people who are trapped in a destructive cult or who have managed to escape but have lasting psychological scars. Tell me what part of his 2 books you find biased or inaccurate.
Dr. Barker was funded by the moonies, so no wonder that her "findings" put the moonies in a positive light.
bcn001 1 year ago
@bcn001 "only a genuine desire to help people who are trapped in a destructive cult or who have managed to escape but have lasting psychological scars". I see, and his $250hr/fee is just out of the kindness of his heart? Again, Dr. Barker was not funded by us. To fund something means we would have had to sit down with her and ask her to do research on us, and offered to pay her a certain amount if she did it. I'm guessing we paid some of her fees, but a high % did not come from us...
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 It does not matter what percentage of fees or expenses went to Barker. Accepting only one dollar makes her work invalid, as it is dependant on the payer. When an author receives money from an organisation, it becomes more difficult to criticise the organisation.
Regarding Mr Hassan's fees, this is his profession, and any counselor who works should be paid. We all get paid for doing our jobs. His interest in choosing this profession was to help people who are trapped in a cult.
bcn001 1 year ago
@bcn001 Do you know how Mr. Hassan's fees compare to real psychologists? One's with PhD degrees? His price is incredibly high, on par with high paid lawyers.
I've spent an hour looking through my college library of on-line peer-reviewed articles. Nothing from Hassan or Ross, plenty from Dr. Barker and other respected and academic authors. I think anyone who reads our conversation will realize that your views are not academically or scientifically based, but a mix of psuedo science & propaganda
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 Readers of our posts are more intelligent than that, and they will certainly be able to see through your attempts to discredit Hassan and others only on the basis that they presumably are not "peer-reviewed". So if a person is attacked and has evidence of it, do you discredit him and claim it is only propaganda because his account is not "peer-reviewed" by an academic professor? What nonsense
Also, you discredit Hassan based on your assessment that his fees are too high for your liking?
bcn001 1 year ago
@bcn001 The reason peer-review matters in a case like Hassan, is because he is making a psychological claim about how something works. However, his claim is not backed by real psychologists. Real scientists need to have their work be objective and based on facts, which is the whole point of the peer-review process. The fact that Hassan has no peer-review articles shows that his work is non-scientific. The fees are just an additional point about why he would be so committed to attacking us...
Loew01 1 year ago
@bcn001 All the claims made by Margaret Singer (who actually was a real psychologist) have been debunked as non-scientific is regards to the way cults operate. Hassan merely took Singer's 1970 theories and modified them slightly, but he is still living in the 70s. Most of our members have gotten married, gotten jobs, and have integrated into society. We still hold our beliefs, we still look for new members, but we are not that different from any other religious group in our modern society...
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 Mr. Hassan is also a real psychologist. His material for his two books is not derived from Margaret Singer's work, but rather from analysing his real experience in having gone through a mind-control experience in the Moon organisation during a time period of 2 and a half years. He rose to be a leader, so he knows quite well what went on in this cult.
As to his theoretical basis, his starting point is Lifton's book on Chinese mind control, which I recommend.
bcn001 1 year ago
@bcn001 Hassan is a counselor, not a psychologist. There is a huge difference. As far as I know, he does not have an undergraduate or a post graduate in psychology. He doesn't belong to any psychology organizations, as far as I know. He hasn't written any psychological papers... so how is he a psychologist? Because he says he is?
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 Wrong, wrong, wrong. Mr Hassan holds a Masters degree in counseling psychology from Cambridge College Massacussets. So he has studied psychology both as undergraduate and as post-graduate. He is also a Licensed Mental Health Counselor.
bcn001 1 year ago
@bcn001 Again, I find it ironic that you accuse me of being brainwashed and yet you are so easily misled by propaganda and lack of evidence. Mr. Hassan's degree is a M.Ed (Masters in Education), with a focus on Counselling Psycology. His undergraduate work is not listed, but I am pretty confident it wasn't in psycology... also, the conselling psycology part of his M.Ed seems to be added, because when I researched him 4 years ago it merely stated "counselling". Either way, a M.Ed is not a M.A.
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 After Mr Hassan was able to escape the Unification Church cult he was 21 years old and decided to study psychology in order to understand in a profound way the mechanisms of mind control and brainwashing. Professor Robert Jay Lifton is the person who suggested to him that he should study psychology in order to explain to us what had actually happened to him during his time in the moonies cult, and by extension be able to explain what usually happens when one is under mind control.
bcn001 1 year ago
@bcn001
"Escape?" What a nonsense. The UC is not a prison where you need to escape. People come and go. There is no one guarding the doors with a machine gun. The UC is about true love, not force. OK?
However, in Japan the UC members get kidnapped and confined, illegally. Those members can NOT escape, and the police turn a blind eye. It is organized crime, by "christian" minsters in collaboration with communists.
Why not stand up for the human rights of those violated people?
brunoklotz 1 year ago
@Loew01 You are claiming that the Moon organisation has changed and that it no longer operates as it did in the 1970s. If that were the case, I would be joyful, but I tend to be suspicious about this type of "change" claims. I was watching earlier a video on Scientology where Paulette Cooper explains how she was told by Scientology in the late 70s that it had changed completely and that therefore she should stop writing bad stuff about it. She believed them, but it turned out not to be true.
bcn001 1 year ago
@Loew01 (cont.) Just another thing regarding the idea of the Moon organisation no longer being what it was. If this is so, I would have expected you to admit to all these facts about the organisation I have been arguing, in the sense of saying "ok, we used to deceptively recruit, we used to use mind-control, we used hypnotic techniques to implant phobias in members, but we no longer do so".
I have a question for you whose answer will be revealing: Do you consider Scientology a dangerous cult?
bcn001 1 year ago
@bcn001 we've changed how we operate, but our theology has always been the same. We never used mind control techniques and we never recruited deceptively.
As far as Scientology goes, I don't know any Scientologist, so I have no basis to judge.
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 I don't personally know any scientologist either, but that does not impair me in my ability to know what Scientology actually is. In the same way that I have never personally known any nazis, but that does not impair me in seeing what the Nazi party was and condemning everything they did.
So you do have a solid basis to judge Scientology and it is worrying and meaningful that you do not condemn them without hesitation.
bcn001 1 year ago
@bcn001 The reason you don't need to know a Nazi personally is because their activities are well documented and researched (again, plenty of peer-reviewed articles). A single picture of a concentration camp is all one needs to understand the end result of Nazi thinking... but I have seen no evidence of Sceintology being destructive or abusive, other than from people like you and groups that are obviously "anti-cult", and I have very good reason to suspect their evidence and neutrality...
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 A single picture of the state Scientology left the body of Lisa MchPherson should make you think.
I don't consider myself anti-cult. I don't believe there is such a thing as being anti-cult. All I am against is mind control and brainwashing, so I am against any group or person who uses these techniques to obtain economic gains from another person. In this sense I am against Scientology and the groups created by Mr Moon. Please read "Combatting Cult Mind Control" before you comment.
bcn001 1 year ago
the only experience i have with moonies wass violent on their behalf
mbenson2790 1 year ago
@mbenson2790 I'm very sorry to hear that, especially since I haven't met any violent moonies...
Loew01 1 year ago
@Loew01 it was bad, they had no reason to act the way they did. my buddy and i were so scared we chain smoked a pack of cigarettes, and i don't even smoke. plus i can't drive down that road anymore.
mbenson2790 1 year ago
@mbenson2790
Can you go into some details. What did they do and why did they do it? How can they keep you from driving down a public road? Sounds kinda wild. Glad you're safe.
ar4216 1 year ago
@ar4216 my buddy and i were lost, we went into their drive way to turn around, they blocked us in with a truck. they claimed they have been following us since we turned onto the road(not a dead end or no outlet). then he demanded for our id when we were like, let us back up. so we said no, because neither of us had it on us, and he got a little violent(grabbed at my buddy's throat) after yelling at us for like 15 minutes he backed up and went back to his spot. scared the SHIT out of us
mbenson2790 1 year ago
From Wikipedia (apparently quite a few Moonies in Westchester):
Irvington is also home to a number of members of the Unification Church, including several high-ranking families. There are several Church-owned estates and buildings located in Irvington, or in the neighboring village of Tarrytown. Reverend Sun Myung Moon, the founder of the Church and its spiritual leader, has a large private residence with an estate of 17.67 acres, the former Frederic Clark Sayles estate, on East Sunnyside Lane.
ar4216 1 year ago
It's weird that they would say they'd been following you- why would they even do that? I wonder if the police are in their back pocket. That's what happened down in Clearwater, Florida with the Scientologists. They were always hiring off duty police for functions (thus generously supplementing their income), so whenever they had a problem they would sick the police on people. Wonder if the police in Westchester are similarly corrupt or if you could file a complaint. They sound out of control.
ar4216 1 year ago
@mbenson2790
I wonder what kind of "Moonies" they were. Never met a violent one. And if one claims to be Moonie, but acts violent, then he acts against all the teachings of Rev Moon. W
Would you accuse Jesus for some violence committed by some catholic person?
brunoklotz 1 year ago
@brunoklotz it was a moonie compound in westchester county ny
mbenson2790 1 year ago
@mbenson2790
Well, as I said, I wonder what kind of "Moonies" you met there. Some people call themselves Christians, but act very different.
Anywya, I have never met such "Moonies". Praise the Lord.
brunoklotz 1 year ago
I think it was just a general remark.
brunoklotz 2 years ago
And even within the religious realm different denominations call each other names, as they do with Unifciation Church. This is the most ridiculous thing.
One of the worst accusation is to say that the Unification Church is no religion. That the way that some people chose to undermine religious freedom.
But remember: Freedom is the freedom of the one who is different, not only of the one who agrees with us. That would not be freedom at all.
brunoklotz 2 years ago
Atheists always believe that spiritual experiences are all just phantasies. And religious believers cannot understand how someone can NOT believe in God.
The best would be to not only to tolerate, but to love each other. Unfortunately so often both sides call the other side "idiot" or worse names. That is not helpful for anyone. Let us respect each other.
brunoklotz 2 years ago
@brunoklotz Are you referring to me?
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
Dear, Ely !
So are you against UC or not ? i can't understand ?
adevarul13 2 years ago
@adevarul13 I'm not against the UC... this was meant to be sarcastic, but with an element of truth.
Loew01 2 years ago
well, let me encourage you than :) i was not sure about your sarcasm at moment...( though recognize it was high :) ) , you are really brave.
When people try to search some negative information about True Parents oops here you are with your clear message... that's a great thing i consider... Bravo !!!
i wish follow your example if my English would be so good :) i am actually eastern european too
adevarul13 2 years ago
Here were the questions I accidentally erased:
Hi, i'm an ex-bc, current atheist who has a few questions.
Do you believe science to be compatible with UC theology?
Do you believe in evolution?
In the big bang theory?
How much of an influence do you think God, Satan, and/or spirit world respectively has on the universe/world?
Do you believe everything from DP?
Do you believe the DP relies somewhat on the bible since it quotes the bible?
Do you think the bible is credible to any degree?
Loew01 2 years ago
DP and Bible: I think the DP is mostly true. 95%? I think the Bible is very credible, if not taken literally... also, the reason the DP uses the Bible is because it's explaining the 'true' purpose of the Bible and what lessons should be learned from it. Also, from a more objective perspective, it's an amazing work of art, and although grossly exaggerated, it's also an amazing historical record that few ancient texts can duplicate...
Loew01 2 years ago
Thanks for answering so thoroughly.
My question here is how specifically does DP explain the true purpose of the bible and how is it convincing? I'm sorry, I remember DP quoting various parts of the bible but I can't remember any specific quotes. The one I vaguely remember is giving "evidence" that the second coming will come from Korea, by quoting a passage from Jesus, that the sun or angel will rise from the east. Sorry this is vague, you don't have to dig through DP if you don't want to.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
hey, no problem.
The second coming section of the DP is the most shaking, in my opinion. I think the reason for this is obvious; it's trying to convince Koreans that the Messiah should come to Korea. A pretty easy sell if you ask me ;)
The specific way the DP explains the Bible is by giving the stories an underlying theme and connecting them. Best example is Moses, and all the 40 day conditions in his life: 40 years in Palace, 40 years in one desert, 40 days spying, 2X 40 day fasts...
Loew01 2 years ago
evidence is shaky*, not 'shaking'.
Anyway, the DP then goes on to explain how Jesus' 40 day fast in the wilderness is directly tied to Moses 40 day fasts and desert wanderings. Another thing the DP does is explain the 6 day creation story and compare it to the current scientific understanding of creation. Very interesting section, which lends a lot of credibility to the Bible, in my opinion. Basically, the general order of the Bible story is correct, which is different than most origin stories.
Loew01 2 years ago
As far as the 2nd coming section, I've heard that Korea was not the only nation the messiah could come to... for example, I heard Ireland was another candidate, and Ireland fulfills a lot of the same conditions. I think the big difference was the independence movements after WWI. Ireland's was violent, whereas Korea's was peaceful (March 1, 1919 movement). Father was literally conceived right after this moment. That's my own theory though... Anyway, DP is meant to be flexible, imo...
Loew01 2 years ago
Back to the DP and Bible, another impressive connection is the Parallels of History lecture, which shows how Christian history parallels in many ways Jewish history. Jacob and his 12 sons, Jesus and his 12 disciples. 800 years after Abraham, Saul is crowned king. 800 AD Charlemagne is crowned Emperor. These are incredible coincidences if there is not underlying cause behind them...
Loew01 2 years ago
Spiritual Influence: I think there is a lot of influence from spirit world, which is how I think God and Satan influence society at this moment. Each person makes the final decision, but I think most people's decisions are made in ignorance of what's best for them. I think the major cause of this ignorance is spiritual influence... God's trying to get thru this block to educate people, and when he succeeds, people get dreams, visions, etc.
Loew01 2 years ago
Evolution/Big Bang: I would say evolution is mostly true... I think it could be 'the how, but not the why' of creation, which I think is generally how science works. The only thing I'm not sure of is human beings, namely Adam and Eve. I think what separates people from animals is that we have a spirit, so this is something that didn't evolve but was infused into us... so whether this was infused into a primitive set of homo-sapiens or whether A&E were created is some unique way, I don't know...
Loew01 2 years ago
@trippyshiitake Also what's your view on gay marriage?
In my experience UC members seem to have widely varying stances on all of these, so for your answers do you think the average member would agree with you?
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
A good set of questions, so I'll try my best to answer them...
Do you believe science to be compatible with UC theology? Yes. Science and religion are both attempts to describe objective reality, and when they come into conflict, then one of them is observing objective reality incorrectly. As far as I know, UC theology has not made any claims that are unscientific. If I'm wrong, please give me a couple examples... I'm a huge fan of science, and think it's necessary for human happiness...
Loew01 2 years ago
Okay, well I believe Adam and Eve not being a metaphor is unscientific for one, but many members believe fully in evolution. I did. Personally I was only told about the A&E story growing up. When I learned about evolution in school and asked my parents, only then was I taught that evolution is true but God was behind it. Moon apparently said a lot of interesting things back in the day, one of them that sticks out is that the Jews paid indemnity through the holocaust.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
hmm... well, I've watched a few scientific programs where they talk about an original ancestor. I mean, logically there had to be the 'first' homo-sapien, and I think if you see sentientism as spiritual, then it makes sense that the spirit would be given to a man and a woman. Most members do believe fully in evolution, and I believe fully in evolution up until Adam and Eve, and maybe including them. I'm just not sure... but that's just me. I also think being an atheist is unscientific ;)
Loew01 2 years ago
Being half Jewish, I hope that what I say about the holocaust isn't seen as anti-semetic, but our ideology teaches that the Jews had one responsibility, which they failed. It's not that God sentenced 6 million of them to death, but that he could no longer protect them from Satan, who considered them the biggest threat for thousands of years. If God could stop it, he would have... What Rev. Moon said 'back in the day' is no different than what he says now...
Loew01 2 years ago
anyway, when it comes to evolution, I think the main issue is 'sentientism', or the point when human beings became something more than animals. Of course, materialists believe that this is also evolutionary, through a slow development of mental capacities in the brain, but psychology is still mostly guesswork, so I haven't come across anything remotely conclusive... especially concerning psychological traits and genetics...
Loew01 2 years ago
Sorry dude my internet cut off last night while I was typing this up.
I don't see the "first human" idea so black and white. There were some generations of hominids that anthropologists would consider to be the "earliest known beings to be classified with our own species" but it really is a gradual process. We modern humans are still in the process. Many modern groups have adapted subtle but distinctly different traits, not related to "race". Are they human? Its debatable and it always has been.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
This brings me to the soul, which there is little if any scientific evidence for. If life and homonids evolved gradually (and after looking it up for myself I fully believe this to be true) then the trait of souls would have to have been acquired gradually through many generations. Logically, I don't think anything can have "part of a soul". You believe that we reached a milestone where God gave us souls, yet there are soulless chimps who are smarter in some abilities than many humans.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
Advanced animals are capable of empathy and thought. I can show you links if you wish. Anyway why should humans be the only ones with souls when we're not too far from animals?
Its very possible that nobody has a soul. We have been able to recreate "out of body experiences" and "near death experiences" in labs by using a helmet with rotating magnetic fields that confuse the subjects' brains. I can elaborate later but the assumption that humans are special enough for souls isn't backed up.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
Sorry about the random Jewish statement, that was the beginning of my next point but I was interrupted in posting it. Continued: one of them that sticks out is that the Jews paid indemnity through the holocaust. Other than being controversial, this can't be true because the idea of race is entirely socially constructed, there are no hereditary traits in DNA that define a race. I think this applies to the effort to match Japanese to Americans as well.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
Sure, a mixed race child helps bring social barriers down but I don't think it has any spiritual significance in regards to the war. Nothing spiritual or biological connects the Jews, Japanese, or Americans as "a distinct people". They all created eachother by perceiving the others as different. As for atheism being unscientific, yes I understand the idea that something, the big bang, coming from nothing is very unscientific. But what about God's origins?
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
Did he have a beginning, and from what? If he has been around forever that breaks quite a few scientific and logical rules. Actually many renowned physicists believe that its possible for small particles to appear out of nowhere in vaccuum. They also believe that very rarely, more complex things pop into existence, and chances are once in an eternity a new big bang should begin. Link if you want.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
In general, Moonie theology is compatible with science (like you said the teachings are flexible); these are some examples of teachings I could think of that might contradict science. I will get to my main personal argument and the DP/bible points tomorrow hopefully, which combines the questions on science compatibility, evolution and the big bang, and spiritual influence.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
As far as God's origins go, it again gets down to definitions... all material things have causes. The 'belief' of physicists that something can just appear out of nothing is an attempt to create an exemption to this scientific fact, which is contradictory. There is no evidence for such a belief ;) It's just the only possible conclusion... since they reject the notion of anything 'non-material' which does not need a cause. There needs to be some pre-existing energy or force which is non-material.
Loew01 2 years ago
Isn't skin color hereditary? Just wondering... but the whole point of the Jews is that although race is a human construct, the Jews were able to create a separate identity that was easily identifiable. Also, there are certain DNA traits that come through to some extent ('Jewish' nose), and for example, it's possible to tell the difference between Japanese and Koreans when you live in Asia for awhile.
Loew01 2 years ago
so, I don't think it's entirely true that race is a purely social construct. However, the point of the Jewish identity and mixed marriage has very little to do with DNA. It is again a spiritual AND social matter, and since I believe in spiritual causes, the Jews being identified by such a spiritual connection is very plausible...
'indemnity' is probably one of the most misunderstood words in our movement. Again, in our belief, it was Satan, not God, who wanted the Jews to pay 'indemnity'...
Loew01 2 years ago
When you're talking about advanced animals, you're talking about dolphins and chimps. If you study social sciences, there is a HUGE leap between those animals and human thought capacity. There really is no comparison. Also, there is circumstantial evidence of the soul, which is based on eye-witness testimony and personal experience. Not 'scientific' perse, but again, definition of spiritual is the non-material...
Loew01 2 years ago
for the soul argument, atheists tend to follow empirical thinking when making arguments against religion. In other words, everything must be concluded from evidence. However, there is also the 'rational' school of thought, which is the deductive system of thinking. people get confused because the word rational is used in many contexts, but the 'soul' is a complex philosophical argument that scientists really can't be involved in, since science is empirical before it is rational...
Loew01 2 years ago
"little if any scientific evidence for" that's a favorite phrase of scientists, but I don't think it's logical to only believe in things that there is scientific evidence for, especially since the definition of spirit world is 'non-material' or specifically outside the realm of science...
Loew01 2 years ago
"Are they human? Its debatable and it always has been. " I'd love to know an example of this... because it's quite a shocking statement. I know you didn't mean it this way, but it sounds similar to the kind of dehumanizing statements that are used in ethnic struggles... unless you're referring to "mix-gender" or something along those lines.
Loew01 2 years ago
@Loew01 Examples? Certainly, I will message links to you. Of course I didn't mean that one variation is superior to others, just that they contradict conventional wisdom that suggests humans to be more alike than we are. What I meant to be debatable is the definition of human.
Eh, I can show you many who don't think its logical to believe in something in which there is no scientific evidence for, so I guess it really boils down to opinion on faith; some feel it and some don't.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
@trippyshiitake However there is empirical evidence that the brain and certain conditions are capable of naturally producing "spiritual experiences" which I alluded to earlier. I disagree that the soul must be a rational argument. Even if souls exist and are immaterial, science can and has analyzed the results that humans claim to feel. I argue that one must use both empirical and rational thought in all decision making.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
@trippyshiitake We take in the world with empiricism and analyze the data into information with rationalism. So its illogical to assume that souls are solely in the domain of rationalism, because without experiences we have very little to reason with. Likewise, scientific theories cannot be completely empirical as we need reason to recognize patterns from the data and construct predictions. Even circumstantial evidence is more empirical than rational.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
@trippyshiitake I also sent links for advanced animals. The Darwinian thoughts that animals have degrees of intelligence correlating to their level of sophistication, is gaining ground. "The great leap" with modern humans has many likely explanations. However even among different species of the homo genus we see chronologically advanced degrees of intelligence, showing that there was no transformation between a single generation that led to our species' current level of intelligence.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
@trippyshiitake So do you have evidence that refutes quantum physics or have you studied the behavior of physicists and concluded that they make up conclusions to support their beliefs? Because I may have understated this point with the use of "belief" and I can substantiate this point with evidence, can you? I hope you didn't assume that they made an assumption.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
@trippyshiitake Skin color is a genetic adaptation to a different climate that is hereditary. I disagree that there is a separate identity for any race. "Racial traits" including the Jewish nose are DNA traits that tend to be but aren't always concentrated within each group simply because members of each tend to marry members of the same group which exaggerate the traits. But there are so many exceptions, and there is no uniform biological identity that all members of a race share.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
@trippyshiitake I think the variations can also apply to the claimed spiritual connections. In fact if there is a spiritual connection between races I don't see why there shouldn't be one between people of the same faith. But this matter also may just boil down to opinion. Nevertheless, biologically humanity is its own race and it is only one race. What we perceive as races are simply results of variation and differentiation.
trippyshiitake 2 years ago
Agreed. I think we were only talking about race because I was confused by your statement that we don't know what it means to be 'human'. I realize you were referring to the distance between humans and animals, or basically you were giving the 'we're just advanced animals' argument.
Loew01 2 years ago
If we're going to start talking about quantum physics, I think we'll both need to go get PhDs in physics, which quite honestly I don't have the free time to do right now, although I am considering it as a future option. The main point, however, is that all people make assumptions about life and so their conclusions are clouded by it. Did you know at some German universities you are not supposed to have a hypothesis for your research paper, because this will effect your conclusion?
Loew01 2 years ago
@Loew01 To do a PhD in Physics your undergraduate and/or postgraduate degree must be in a cognate subject such as Applied Math/Engineering. I think your undergraduate work is mostly in the field of International Political Economy and Religious Studies. There are certain UK universities which will allow you to do a postgraduate diploma, which is basically a conversion program if your undergraduate degree is not related to Physics/Applied Math.
minutemenicbm3 2 years ago
@minutemenicbm3 As far as I'm aware, US colleges do not offer any chance of part-time study for a PhD in Physics. You'd be much better off in the UK if you intend to study for a PhD on a part-time basis. I would imagine the situation is pretty much the same in other EU countries, but I don't know for sure as my knowledge of Spanish, French & German is virtually non-existent. Unless you are able to obtain funding from one of the 7 UK Research Councils you will not be able to study full-time.
minutemenicbm3 2 years ago
@Loew01 I believe that EU nationals are eligible to apply for a research grant from any one of those organisations; but studentships are difficult to come by and highly competitive. Given that your wife is an Irish national it would not be too difficult for you to obtain an Irish passport, but you still have to fulfill the residency requirement which is usually 3 years.
minutemenicbm3 2 years ago
@Loew01 Otherwise, you might consider studying on a part-time basis, which would allow you to earn an income as well as pursue your academic goals. The UK is a world leader in the provision of part-time advanced degree courses at some of the most prestigious universities in The Times Higher Educational Supplement World Ranking of Universities. As a major competitor in the arena of international politics/economics I suppose Britain has no choice but to punch above it's weight to compete with
minutemenicbm3 2 years ago
@Loew01 to compete with much larger economies such as Germany, Japan and the United States. But on the other hand, America tends to be more conservative in respect of it's provision of postgraduate degrees. I suppose America would never stoop to that level given that it's GDP/GNP is comfortably well ahead of any of it's major competitors i.e. The Harvard Extension School offers an ALB & ALM program to it's students, which is not recognized the world over.
minutemenicbm3 2 years ago
Hey, thanks for the extensive message. Actually, when I say 'future plans' for a PhD in Physics, I was really thinking of doing it much later, like in 20 or 30 years, when I've hopefully more wealthy and can take the time off to do it full time. It is more something I would kind of like to do, rather than something I really intend on doing. More likely, I'll try to get a PhD in Diplomacy or, if possible, Economics. Either that or become a lawyer. Still not decided. For now, I'm finishing my MA..
Loew01 2 years ago
Interesting points, and I appreciated the links. Something I would like clarity on, however, is the fact that the most intelligent animals aren't always related to the human family. For example, one of the articles was about a parrot. I also know that dolphins and pigs top the chart of animal intelligence after chimps. It makes sense that there are degrees of intelligence with degrees of complexity, but the 'great leap' is undeniable. It's more than just intelligence, too. art, poetry, etc...
Loew01 2 years ago
I agree with your statement here, actually. I wasn't trying to imply that the idea of souls was purely rational, because I think it is also empirical. Rather than soul, actually, I should say spirit, because this is the Unification view of the soul. People see, hear, and feel these things. In other words, they observe them. It is circumstantial, but it is still empirical...
Loew01 2 years ago
Hey, sorry I haven't replied for awhile. I like your points and would love to meet you in person someday. Again, I agree with "one must use both empirical and rational thought in all decision making". I don't think we disagree on the value of both empirical and rational thinking. I think we disagree about the conclusions people come to based on the evidence. I have spoken to many people who have personal eye-witness accounts of spiritual experiences. That is empirical evidence to them... (cont)
Loew01 2 years ago
(cont) so I've talked to many people who personally have seen and heard spiritual things. They weren't induced to see them by any chemical altering, and they were not crazy or strange in any way. So either hallucinating is much more common than people think, or there is some merit to what they are saying... also, I find it odd that people are trying to explain a phenomenon that they themselves have not experienced directly. Who is more likely to understand the experience?
Loew01 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Loew01 ;
ANSWER THIS PLS DONT MAKE EXCUSES; IS REV MOON DIDNT COMMIT ADULTERY
UnitedBohol 1 year ago
Do you believe in love? There's not really any scientific evidence for it, other than claiming it's merely a set of chemical reactions. My question then would be are the chemical reactions the result of the feeling of love, or the cause? In other words, which comes first, the feeling or the chemical reactions? Has anyone tested that?
Loew01 2 years ago
oops, sorry, deleted your questions... Misclicked... was not intentional. Do you mind reposting them? Gay marriage: no way to simplify it, but in general homosexuality is a spiritual problem more than a physical one. It's immoral, and although a unique kind of struggle, it still is something that needs to be overcome in order to be truly happy and to have a relationship with God. I've spent a lot of time looking at scientific research and trying to understand this issue. That's my conclusion...
Loew01 2 years ago
Are there Unificationists who never marry? If so, are they fully accepted?
Chopinsnocturnes 2 years ago
oops, sorry for not answering this part of the question before... I don't think there are unmarried members, not that I know of, unless they joined after they were able to have kids. In our theology however, even if one doesn't marry in this life, they'll be married eventually in the afterlife (spirit world), so I think they would be fully accepted, although their situation would be unique... marrying is a central part of our belief, so anyone who is single is seen as a 'matching candidate' :)
Loew01 2 years ago
Thank you Ely for answering my questions.
Although I do not agree with your theology, I do respect you as a person. And your loving heart is very apparent!
Chopinsnocturnes 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Rev Moon sells llittle children for sex to rich powerful people especially politcians, He gave millions to the Bush campaign, He is also involved with selling guns and drugs via black market throughout the globe. In the New Yorker hotel in the
70s there were bodies found in elevator shaft after he held a ceremony. Authorities believed they were sacrifices. Good luck finding the truth about him and his sick family Moon has bought out almost every domain space that blast the truth about him.
deliaflores1 2 years ago
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THe kids sold for sex are introduced to the masses of rich sickos as "Little Angels," WHICH THEY ARE BUT THEY ARE NOT TO BE DAMAGED BY DEMONS. PULL YOURSELF OUT IF YOU DO NOT KNOW ANY OF THIS BEFORE YOU ARE JUDGED ALONG WITH THEM. FORE YOU TOO WILL BE SMASHED INTO NOTHINGNESS BY OUR REAL CREATOR AND OUR TRUE MESSIAH. I PRAY THAT THIS HAPPENS SOON EVEN IF IT MEANS I SHALL PERISH FOR HATING THOSE INVOLVED IN RAPE AND MURDER,
deliaflores1 2 years ago
Did you say that Unificationists aren't allowed to date? As in go to a movie or something innocent?
anyway, I was wondering....are there Unificationists who never marry? Are they accepted as full members of your religious community?
BTW, I have been watching Unification church services on vimeo with Hyung Jin Moon as pastor of the Seoul UC. It is interesting...but the singing is beautiful!
Chopinsnocturnes 2 years ago
Unificationists are not allowed to date. Many do, but it is clearly against the rules. Our parents arrange our marriages, and before we get married, we're not supposed to have any 'romantic' experience with the other gender.
However, going to a movie is fine, as long as there's no kissing or holding hands involved. It's a fine line, though, but the question is what is the motivation for the two of you going alone? We often go to movies together in groups, but just two is a lil dangerous...
Loew01 2 years ago
I think you're paranoid. There is nothing wrong with dating. I see nothing wrong with a man and woman kissing or holding hands. What is so dangerous about two people being alone, especially if their motive is to have sex? This happens all the time, especially in a free country like UK and the United States.
minutemenicbm3 2 years ago
The whole point of not dating in our movement is to avoid two people being alone for the purpose of having sex. It's irresponsible sexual relationships that are harmful to people's ability to form long lasting meaningful relationships. You're right that it is rampant in countries like the UK and US, but it has a harmful effect...
Loew01 2 years ago
I find this pretty hilarious and amusing. It's true, you do know how to convert a moonie. The first method is the most common one since the power of love is stronger than the power of the principle. I guess some unlucky people were missing out on the commandment or the power of the principle. Or they feel resentful and don't make any attempt to understand and question our movement.
bluecubie 2 years ago
my boss is a moonie and I feel like everything he learned in life he heard at some seminar, Oh I'm joking but it's no laughing matter, all he does is pinch money from his workers, being brainwashed has nothing to do with ideology in this case. A religion shouldn't be based on growth and success but truth, I happen to relate to some moonie ideas, well, except for the whole second jesus thing, but you all just seem so sheltered, look at facts; kidnapping charges, etc. I worship no corporate empire
cannabassist 2 years ago
facts = kidnapping charges?? first of all, a 'charge' isn't a fact. second of all, you must be confused, because it isn't us that is accused of kidnapping. It's the 'deprogrammers'. The only thing we've been accused of is 'brainwashing', which we've been vindicated for.
You seem to feel that growth and success have nothing to do with truth... yet if something is true, it should grow and be successful, no?
Loew01 2 years ago
So you admit that you people are brainwashed...
"running back to her brainwashed upbringing"
cannabassist 2 years ago
lol. You must be joking. Or you missed that class in kindergarten on 'sarcasm'. :P
Loew01 2 years ago
IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Hahah.
LivingforTruthPBUH 2 years ago
this one is a bit zany - jumped from your first couple of monologues to this one, and was hoping to join you again for hoon dok hae (hwae?) - I also read the bible x7, cover to cover, and then gave up, only dipping in very occasionally - but I do like to encourage and be encouraged, as Paul tells us, so keep up the good work, with more improvements please
zonenio 2 years ago
...you are really wonderful people...
imparatia 2 years ago
what specifically is irrational about zeitgeist, please refer to your sources in your argument.thanks
MrBizobean 2 years ago
LOL. I was waiting for one of these! Don't worry, I'm going to do a whole episode on Zeitgeisters... but it's pretty irrational from beginning to end :P
Loew01 2 years ago
This is hilarious! I'm an atheist ex-moonie, also born into the church, but a bit older than Lowe01. Just found this after googling moonie for fun. Love it! I think the intellectual method only works on the very smartest of moonies. Remember, most moonies are feel-good types who are pretty irrational, so the marriage method is probably going to be a lot more successful in general. But every once in a while a critically thinking moonie can be found, and converted out. Best of luck!
BoutteIndustries 2 years ago
Aw man, you left? sorry to hear that... you're missing all the fun! ;P
That being said, if I did leave, I would either go for the Atheist camp or the Mormons. Atheists are pretty rational (almost as rational as moonies) , except for the Zeitgeist crowd. Mormons are nicer though. That being said, I'd be a Mormon and just pretend to believe in it. I'd just go for the perks... So I'd guess I'd have to be a closet atheist-Mormon.
thanks for watching!
Loew01 2 years ago
Yeah, I'm really missing out! Heck, if I would go back I'm sure I would be taken right back into the fold, shipped off to Chung Pyung for a good old butt-smacking cleansing and then I could go back to being my old sanctimonious self...ahh. No seriously, I don't miss the church's weirdness at all, although from time to time I miss singing the holy songs in harmony with lots of half-asians...those were the days. Dude, mormons are even dumber than moonies, don't do it!!
BoutteIndustries 2 years ago
lol, yeah, a nice butt-smacking is always good for the soul. And we take back everyone with open arms.
You're kinda affirming my point about Mormons being nicer than Atheists. You guys are getting a rep for being a bit insulting... I can kinda understand why, but really, have faith in your moral and intellectual superiority! No reason to be insulting if you own the moral high ground :)
Loew01 2 years ago
aww shucks, didn't mean to sound insulting....I meant dumb in a sort of "nice" way...but I guess it didn't sound that nice, really, at all...lemme see if I can figure out how to edit a comment...then maybe I can "restore" myself!
BoutteIndustries 2 years ago
no need to edit. Your sincere apology is enough (a form of lesser indemnity ;).
You are restored!
"Go now, you are forgiven..."
Loew01 2 years ago
This vid is amusing ! Watched your video's to gain some understanding of what Moonie's believe in as I had never heard of the Unification Church until a month ago. I've just had to read Eileen Barker's study (The Making Of A Moonie) and I have to critically review it & give a presentation in class. Thanks for your video's, I have a greater understanding although still have much research to do.
jasmineleah01 2 years ago
5 minutes is a good target time. and your use of "humor" is quite clever in this audience...going to get to the cute little metaphor on page 361 - 363 of DP? That is where you can find the one that sorta like the Aesop's Fable "Belly and the Other Members."
StartWithAxiology 2 years ago
Zeitgeist was BS. Incredibly flawed.
But I gotta say, I love how Mormons are tagged in this :P
sungis 2 years ago
I'm totally with you on Zeitgeist. I love Mormons, but I try to tag EVERYONE on my videos...
Loew01 2 years ago