When were these manuscripts written? Do we have all Paul's letters in his own hand? I doubt Ceasar did anything that was impossible, like walking on water.
With the numerous manuscripts, you can reconstruct what was originally said, but you cannot validate miracles that way. Is it possible Jesus walked on water? No. Is it probable? No. Just because it was written that he did doesn't make it true. Also, it was written that Pilate existed. We can validate this with external sources. We need external sources from that era to validate it. BTW, Josephus was not a contemporary of Jesus--so no one respond with that.
Awesome stuff, Josh! Great book, too! "More than a Carpenter", which I just saw in TBN's video gallery. Old video and fun to look back into the 70's or whatever, but great eternal truth and nice job on the film and book. A true blessing, as was this and your other stuff God has worked thru you. See you in the air!
Reply to chriss179 : Actually I am delighted to report to you that a few years ago, the British government put the image of Charles Darwin on their ten pound note money nearly two hundred years after his birth. About time !!!
For a different point of view watch the three part series, "The Genius of Charles Darwin" hosted by world famous scientist and atheist Richard Dawkins. Also watch the seven part series, "The Voyage of Charles Darwin." Malcolm Stoddard is brilliant portraying Darwin. ALL ON YOUTUBE.
Don't forget. February 2009 marks the 200th birthday of this truly great man. Let's look forward to some television specials on the founder of evolution.
yes, put his name in the days of the week with the other famous gods who mass slaughtered our western civilisation. tui (tuesday), wodan(wednsday), thor(thursday), frigga(friday) and saturnus(saturday) and just throw out the sun or moon day.
"The early Chruch fathers and scholars". What a lot they were to be quoting or relying upon. The church fathers and their scholars did what they still do today, whatever it takes to remain in business. I am not one of those who seeks to keep Christians from believing what they choose to believe, but their arguements are flimsy at best and geared only toward those who choose to believe whether the evidence suggests otherwise or not.
Yah Im not sure if that was my argument. Your absolutely right just because some one dies for their faith doesnt make it correct. I twas while ago so I forget why I wrote it. It might have been becaue he wrote about them staying in business I might have construed that to mean just trying to get their agenda done. I would use that argument for the disciples but not them coming after them disciples. So for the one after 100 yes for them before no.
Even disciples dying for their beliefs doesn't=beliefs true. Again, there were plenty of Peoples Temple insiders, inner circle members who died for their beliefs, does that make them true?
The apostles died for preaching that Jesus was raised for the dead. It's one thing for people, like terrorists, to die for what they believe to be true. With the apostles, they would have died horrific deaths for what they would have known to be a lie; that Jesus really hadn't risen. Yet, they stood their ground. So, it seems odd that men would die for what they knew to be a lie, as I see it. But hey, that's just me. Praise the Risen One. Every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is Lord.
One more thing, please. I reach out in love, amongst the facts I present. Jesus died for all people and life is like a vapor from a coffee cup; here then gone. I extend an live branch, in peace and offer this: If you find that the facts of the video or my reply are reasonable, I'm happy to pray for and with you to come to Christ. These are last of last days. If you aren't interested, I would just ask for you to remain open. Life is short, 4ever is 4ever, so please consider Jesus care4ly.
**ASTRONOMICAL EVIDENCE the Tanakh ELS Codes Are True!There is Some Extremely Specific Information about Christ and His Crucifixion in Isaiah Chapter 53!
Over 400 Terms Found Relating to Christ, detailed things of His Crucifixion,Names of Key Leaders and All Disciples,Except Judas! Scientific EVIDENCE the Tanakh ELS Codes Are True?
Please VISIT this Page!>>(dot)biblecodedigest(dot)com/page(dot) php/11
Every document, apparantly ancient, coming from the proper repository or custody, and bearing on its face no evident marks of forgery, the law presumes to be genuine, and devolves on the opposing party the burden of proving it to be otherwise. -Simon Greenleaf
No. Please don't do an apples to oranges comparison. The author of the Harry Potter books makes no such truth claim. On the other hand, the bible asserts that is not fiction. Millions of copies of fiction is still fiction.
anything. Josh is trying to say that the Bible is true because we have so many copies. Just because monks chose to make a thousand copies of each Gospel and only one copy of Homer's Illiad, is not proof that the Gospels are true. I know for a fact that the copies we have are not accurate. Justin Martyr quoted the Gospels saying that the Jordan caught on fire when Jesus was baptized, yet we have no copy of this today. Was Martyr lying?
Ah. I get your point. The abundance of manuscripts for the New Testament is certainly not evidence that it is true. But, Josh is only speaking to the reliability of the bibles we have today (NIV, NASB, NLT etc). There is other evidence to support the fact that the autographs did not contain falsehoods. I suggest that you watch his other videos for such evidence or better yet read his book, "Evidence for Christianity". Thanks.
I have both volumes of his earlier editions of "Evidence that demands a Verdict". I would throw them away, but, I hate throwing away books. I did a 14 part series called "Proof Of Jesus?" a couple months back. It goes through all the extra biblical historic references which Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel hold up as evidence. These texts do not say what these men claim for them. I have come to realize that Jesus is just a literary figure and was never the man described in the Gospels.
It is not better to look at the evidence now? Can you tell me what year Jesus was born? Can you tell me where in the Old Testament God asked for a human sacrifice to pay for your sins? Where in the Old Testament did God say he would raise the Messiah from the dead on the third day? If I am wrong, and you know the truth, surely you can answer these questions.
Absent access to the autographs, how can we possibly know whether any or all of the manuscripts we have today are identical copies of the autographs? Not even the Church Fathers were looking at autographs, were they?
Good question. The point of the video is that we don't have any autographs for any historical books, but that we have so many 100s times more copies of the Bible dating from early times that we can be more sure that the Bible reflects the autographs than any other ancient book, including all of the "history" books against which the Bible is judged!
Thanks. Yes, I understood that was your argument. However, what I'm suggesting is that whether one has 10 or 10,000 manuscripts, without the originals one can never be sure that one has accurate copies of the originals. I don't see how, in the absence of autographs, a higher number of copies supports the conclusion that the copies are more accurate. We might just have more inaccurate copies.
When were these manuscripts written? Do we have all Paul's letters in his own hand? I doubt Ceasar did anything that was impossible, like walking on water.
RadarKat73080 1 year ago
With the numerous manuscripts, you can reconstruct what was originally said, but you cannot validate miracles that way. Is it possible Jesus walked on water? No. Is it probable? No. Just because it was written that he did doesn't make it true. Also, it was written that Pilate existed. We can validate this with external sources. We need external sources from that era to validate it. BTW, Josephus was not a contemporary of Jesus--so no one respond with that.
derhammerman 2 years ago
Awesome stuff, Josh! Great book, too! "More than a Carpenter", which I just saw in TBN's video gallery. Old video and fun to look back into the 70's or whatever, but great eternal truth and nice job on the film and book. A true blessing, as was this and your other stuff God has worked thru you. See you in the air!
nowaydudebook 2 years ago
He is forgetting something: we do take out all the supernatural elements from ancient historical accounts.
Nocturnalux 2 years ago
/watch?v=fFH0khjgA0U
TheHonestTheist 2 years ago
/watch?v=fFH0khjgA0U
TheHonestTheist 2 years ago
Reply to chriss179 : Actually I am delighted to report to you that a few years ago, the British government put the image of Charles Darwin on their ten pound note money nearly two hundred years after his birth. About time !!!
NECHOII 2 years ago
For a different point of view watch the three part series, "The Genius of Charles Darwin" hosted by world famous scientist and atheist Richard Dawkins. Also watch the seven part series, "The Voyage of Charles Darwin." Malcolm Stoddard is brilliant portraying Darwin. ALL ON YOUTUBE.
Don't forget. February 2009 marks the 200th birthday of this truly great man. Let's look forward to some television specials on the founder of evolution.
NECHOII 3 years ago
yes, put his name in the days of the week with the other famous gods who mass slaughtered our western civilisation. tui (tuesday), wodan(wednsday), thor(thursday), frigga(friday) and saturnus(saturday) and just throw out the sun or moon day.
What a waste of breath you are!
chriss179 2 years ago
"The early Chruch fathers and scholars". What a lot they were to be quoting or relying upon. The church fathers and their scholars did what they still do today, whatever it takes to remain in business. I am not one of those who seeks to keep Christians from believing what they choose to believe, but their arguements are flimsy at best and geared only toward those who choose to believe whether the evidence suggests otherwise or not.
Cliner97 3 years ago
Stay in business my friend people dont die for business people dont get thrown into arenas with lions for business
michaelflat 3 years ago
Stay in business my friend people dont die for business people dont get thrown into arenas with lions for business-michaelflat
People dying for their beliefs=belief true?
Mormons died for their beliefs=beliefs true?
Branch Davidians died for their beliefs=beliefs true?
Heavens Gate followers died for their beliefs=beliefs true?
Buddhists died for their beliefs=beliefs true?
Muslims died for their beliefs=beliefs true?
Quite the retard argument you have there, huh?
Wonko101 2 years ago
Yah Im not sure if that was my argument. Your absolutely right just because some one dies for their faith doesnt make it correct. I twas while ago so I forget why I wrote it. It might have been becaue he wrote about them staying in business I might have construed that to mean just trying to get their agenda done. I would use that argument for the disciples but not them coming after them disciples. So for the one after 100 yes for them before no.
michaelflat 2 years ago
Even disciples dying for their beliefs doesn't=beliefs true. Again, there were plenty of Peoples Temple insiders, inner circle members who died for their beliefs, does that make them true?
Wonko101 2 years ago
The apostles died for preaching that Jesus was raised for the dead. It's one thing for people, like terrorists, to die for what they believe to be true. With the apostles, they would have died horrific deaths for what they would have known to be a lie; that Jesus really hadn't risen. Yet, they stood their ground. So, it seems odd that men would die for what they knew to be a lie, as I see it. But hey, that's just me. Praise the Risen One. Every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is Lord.
nowaydudebook 2 years ago
One more thing, please. I reach out in love, amongst the facts I present. Jesus died for all people and life is like a vapor from a coffee cup; here then gone. I extend an live branch, in peace and offer this: If you find that the facts of the video or my reply are reasonable, I'm happy to pray for and with you to come to Christ. These are last of last days. If you aren't interested, I would just ask for you to remain open. Life is short, 4ever is 4ever, so please consider Jesus care4ly.
nowaydudebook 2 years ago
@Wonko
**ASTRONOMICAL EVIDENCE the Tanakh ELS Codes Are True!There is Some Extremely Specific Information about Christ and His Crucifixion in Isaiah Chapter 53!
Over 400 Terms Found Relating to Christ, detailed things of His Crucifixion,Names of Key Leaders and All Disciples,Except Judas! Scientific EVIDENCE the Tanakh ELS Codes Are True?
Please VISIT this Page!>>(dot)biblecodedigest(dot)com/page(dot) php/11
*Over 1,406 Repeated Terms Discovered!
Please take time to SEARCH it Out?
AstronomicalEvidence 2 years ago
Well, that was clear!
Italiasalbion 3 years ago
Every document, apparantly ancient, coming from the proper repository or custody, and bearing on its face no evident marks of forgery, the law presumes to be genuine, and devolves on the opposing party the burden of proving it to be otherwise. -Simon Greenleaf
kaygladys 4 years ago
We have millions of copies of the Harry Potter books. Does this mean the story is true?
ForBibletruth 4 years ago
No. Please don't do an apples to oranges comparison. The author of the Harry Potter books makes no such truth claim. On the other hand, the bible asserts that is not fiction. Millions of copies of fiction is still fiction.
HolySealMedia 4 years ago
This is exactly my point. Numbers do not prove
anything. Josh is trying to say that the Bible is true because we have so many copies. Just because monks chose to make a thousand copies of each Gospel and only one copy of Homer's Illiad, is not proof that the Gospels are true. I know for a fact that the copies we have are not accurate. Justin Martyr quoted the Gospels saying that the Jordan caught on fire when Jesus was baptized, yet we have no copy of this today. Was Martyr lying?
ForBibletruth 4 years ago
Ah. I get your point. The abundance of manuscripts for the New Testament is certainly not evidence that it is true. But, Josh is only speaking to the reliability of the bibles we have today (NIV, NASB, NLT etc). There is other evidence to support the fact that the autographs did not contain falsehoods. I suggest that you watch his other videos for such evidence or better yet read his book, "Evidence for Christianity". Thanks.
HolySealMedia 4 years ago
I have both volumes of his earlier editions of "Evidence that demands a Verdict". I would throw them away, but, I hate throwing away books. I did a 14 part series called "Proof Of Jesus?" a couple months back. It goes through all the extra biblical historic references which Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel hold up as evidence. These texts do not say what these men claim for them. I have come to realize that Jesus is just a literary figure and was never the man described in the Gospels.
ForBibletruth 4 years ago
Well, you'll certainly find out when you die won't you?
JoeyVoices 3 years ago
It is not better to look at the evidence now? Can you tell me what year Jesus was born? Can you tell me where in the Old Testament God asked for a human sacrifice to pay for your sins? Where in the Old Testament did God say he would raise the Messiah from the dead on the third day? If I am wrong, and you know the truth, surely you can answer these questions.
ForBibletruth 3 years ago
I guess all of our history knowledge gathered from manuscripts of other works are not true either.
hawke123 3 years ago
That is quite possible.
ForBibletruth 3 years ago
Absent access to the autographs, how can we possibly know whether any or all of the manuscripts we have today are identical copies of the autographs? Not even the Church Fathers were looking at autographs, were they?
ProfMTH 4 years ago
Good question. The point of the video is that we don't have any autographs for any historical books, but that we have so many 100s times more copies of the Bible dating from early times that we can be more sure that the Bible reflects the autographs than any other ancient book, including all of the "history" books against which the Bible is judged!
JoshMcDowell 4 years ago 2
Thanks. Yes, I understood that was your argument. However, what I'm suggesting is that whether one has 10 or 10,000 manuscripts, without the originals one can never be sure that one has accurate copies of the originals. I don't see how, in the absence of autographs, a higher number of copies supports the conclusion that the copies are more accurate. We might just have more inaccurate copies.
ProfMTH 4 years ago