I don't understand, how is this an answer? This is a complete non sequitur. Is your evidence also proof of Zeus? Thor? Apollo? Athena? Cronos? Yuyu? Yaya? Juju? or any of the other million gods of human history?
This is such a ridiculous statement. To suggest sperm is designed is to infer design onto sperm. Evolution shows that the complexity of biological life we see today is easily achievable, and only requires time, and replicating organism to pass on hereditary traits.
Because evolution means upgrade. But the same object upgrade. Then sperm is leaving and never coming back from the female body, How evolution explains that?
I didn't yet meet an atheist who can answer that question.
So? Why does the sperm need to come back? This question is seemingly ridiculous. Can you clarify your point a little better and maybe I can respond to something more coherent.
Evolution of Biological life does not mean to 'upgrade'. The hereditary genes of a surviving organism get passed down generation after generation, and over millions of years this evolution by natural selection tends to choose the best genes for survival and growth.
The Genes are the blueprint so to speak of the biological machine that evolution has decided is the best machine for the job. Sperm is part of this blue print, and is a part of a system of selection. If sperm does not come back to a male, this has no bearing on the outcome of whether his genes get replicated or not. There is not a conscious upgrade made by the genes, the genes are put through the gauntlet of evolution by natural selection.
Yes with sperm design it has nothing to do with it.
How did the sperm know exactly what the female body contains and how it is prepared to suppress all the safety guard that the female reproduction system has.
Because no sperm came back to our body to tell us how female body works.....
Sperm need not return to the host with a detailed analysis of a female body, to supply a treasure map so to speak. This is nonsensical. Sperm does what it does not because of design, but because of hundreds of millions of years of evolution have evolved the complex way in which biological life replicates. If earliest form of replicating organism when 'sharing' their genes with another in order to produce an offspring could not do the act of 'sharing' then they would not produce offspring.
Of course sperm can be explained through evolution.
If you have the critical thinking and understanding to accept how an eye or and nose could be created. Then you must accept by the same exercise of thought, the obvious reasons why sperms function without the necessity of design.
"It is really nonsensical that you think that you can explain the sperm design by evolution......"
It is nonsensical to think that sperm is designed.
Take a target and an archers for instance. Lets say that these archers spend much of their time shooting aimlessly at the targets, and only a few archers hit the target. The archers that hit the target, have offspring with the target. After a few million years, you will find that these archers are now excellent marksmen, and their arrows can even do activities like direct themselves at a target. It simply takes millions of years to produce good marksmen.
Any analogy is a not going to be a water tight analogy. This is the problem with metaphors and allegories(which is why the Qur'an is a failure on such an issue).
You must understand, if the sperm succeeds, the offspring will hold the same genetic makeup. Therefore, will have sperm capable of doing its job. If the organism did not have sperm capable of doing it's job, it did not have offspring. Early forms of sperm were simplistic, and evolved to complexity.
The 'feed back' would have to come in the offspring produced. If offspring were not produced there would not be 'feed back'. If you want a detailed explanation on the evolution of Sperm, there are articles to read on this. Science is a complex field of study, and volumes and volumes of books are constantly being written and rewritten on these subjects. 500 characters is simply not enough.
Evolution: more or less means change, or gradual change.
Biological Evolution: Is the theoretical process by which species of organism develop from earlier organism. Passing on slight variations of hereditary genes to following generations.
Evolution occurs because there are slight variations in the passing on of hereditary traits. You get genes from both the male and female and in doing this trade you get a natural mutation of the gene 'code' so to speak. This allows for slight gradual variations in species which ultimately over millions of years allows for large variations in organism.
Well, that is why analogies fail for such scientific subjects.
It is amazing how you spent the last few days arguing about how analogies, metaphors and allegories are somehow water tight against critique of fallibility. As soon as I use one analogy, you tell me how much of a failure analogies are. Great, you proved my previous dozen comments.
You are simply being ignorant of the countless studies being done on this subject. You are simply begging that all atheist must deffinately demonstrate the evolution of sperm, and if they can't, therefore God exists. Give me a break. This is the most fallacious nonsensical ignorance you've produced to date. Evolution by natural selection has been demonstrated to be the natural guiding force for replicating organism, and to think otherwise is to ignore OBVIOUS evidence and probability.
I understand how evolution occurs, and of what I read it is the most probable explanation. You are being OVERTLY fallacious in expecting all knowledge to be known about HOW specific characteristics of organism evolved. We know that they HAVE evolved but it is the HOW which is the area which is in deep study. I do not have all the answers for HOW different characteristic evolved, but it is the MOST probable choice.
I understood what is evolution. Pretty nice theory. It can be applied to any organism and part. BUT the sperms are cells leaving our bodies and never come back. If you understand how evolution happen then you will know it is impossible for sperms to evolved without knowing the destination (female body). It is just impossible to happen.
It is possible for sperms to evolve without returning to the body from which is came. There are millions of sperm in action, and these sperm compete with each other for replication. The sperm capable of carrying it's genetic info to the female egg, will produce an offspring, therefore, it's genetic makeup for the sperm and the male who supplied the sperm will be passed on. This is how sperm evolves, it has it's very own competition among its own sperm to replicate.
Maybe you've read a specific article talking about how science does not have the origins of heredity, and think that this has to do with the evolution of sperm in organism. These are TWO different fields of study. Origins of heredity and the evolution of sperm are separate issues altogether. Sperm evolves, but the origin of heredity is a bit more complex then that.
Well, to say that there is a reason WHY we have rain is subjective. It rains because it rains, there is no purpose to rain. Just like there is no purpose or goal to evolution. Evolution simply occurs naturally. Is this the answer you were looking for?
I beg to differ, it does not rain to keep balance, nor does everything have a purpose. As humans we infer purpose onto natural forces, and this is our nature as human beings.
The planet functions as it does not out for a reason, or a purpose but simply because natural forces have been left up to their own devices.
There is facts and reason and there is what you desire. But both of them won't lead to same conclusions.
So what you are just saying there is no rules and everything is just random.....
Very scientific. Especially the part that everything is just like that.
Why there is gravity? Why there is electromagnetic fields. Why is there dark matter. You don't have answer nor any human to these questions. Do you know why ? Because you don't have enough facts. How did you conclude GOD doesn't exist ?
God is an unfalsifiable claim, a claim we have no reason to believe is any more true then the existence of any other mythological character or legendary story. The existence of God is as equal to believing in the existence of leprechauns or Bigfoot. If we accepted the existence of all these unfalsifiable creatures, then we would have so much nonsense to deal with. Until you can prove the existence of God, then it is irrational to conclude without evidence that he exists.
Secondly, the track record for science has shown that the more we discover about how the world works, the less places there is for a God to hide. It was thought Gods caused rain, caused thunder, made the ground shake. These of course have been explained away, and God no longer throws lightning or stomps on the ground. God no longer rides the sun chariot. The gaps of knowledge where humans resort to placing God, as history has shown, will be filled in with better explanation.
But your whole assumption is just based on non-scientific proof. You don't have proof but you chose to believe that he doesn't exist. It is just your own desire.
God has signs of his existence in many places. Qur'an is one of them. Science didn't show you anything. Just incomplete picture of the whole. You are basing your assumption on an incomplete proof. This proof might contain one statements that breaks the whole way of your thinking. The sperms are one of them too....
The Qur'an according to archaeological and historical data shows that it originates from the same legends and stories of the other monotheism. This is the most probable truth.
Secondly, God is an UNFALSIFIABLE claim. There is no reason to believe he exists. There is perfectly reasonable evidence to prove that the theistic God of the Qur'an or earlier monotheism is purely fabricated. But the Deistic God remains in our gap of knowledge.
There are stories and other facts that are not in any of the other books. Like Egyptian crucified people did you know that ?
Most people thinks it is an error in the Qur'an but if you go to the original meaning of the word crucifixion it will means kill someone by putting on a stick.
If you study Egyptian history then you will find out that they did kill people by hanging them on stick.
Shared stories come because they are from the same origin. But yet there are a lot more stories and more.
You have to understand that EVEN IF there was knowledge in the Qur'an that could not have been known by humans (which all evidence shows that there is not, and the claims are made only on metaphorically vague analogies.) this would NOT be evidence of a creator.
How do you explain prophet Muhammad access to all the information, Even though he was illiterate and he spoke only Arabic. Because for example; All fruits are pairs. Everything living is created from water. Expanding universe. All of them are explicit scientific facts.
You do not have proof that God exists.. You can only offer arbitrary reasons why you think there is a God, which ignores the volumes of evidence contrary to your claims.
Secondly, GOD IS UNFALSIFIABLE! This means, you cannot prove he does not exist because like all unfalsifiable claims, there is NO WAY to test such a theory.
Thirdly, do you believe that Zeus exists? or Apollo? Do you believe in the Tooth fairy or leprechauns?
I do sperms design is the proof. First creation the proof (I didn't talk about this but to have an RNA from chemicals we need at least 10^18 years while our universe is just 13.7 * 10^9 years if you want I can prove it to you) . And the Qur'an with historical and scientific facts and other different miracles.
There is one Creator of everything, Zeus had sex with females. Almighty is more high. It is same like having sex with a robot. LOL
Again, sperm is not designed, the complex sperm we have today is a product of evolution. Don't be ignorant of this fact with the amount of articles there are to read on this subject. Secondly, the origin of heredity is DIFFERENT then the evolution of sperm. You cannot prove that the origin of heredity began with a designer, because that would require MUCH FURTHER explanation.
Secondly you cannot prove Zeus does not exist, therefore, by your standards he exists.
I believe in science. Therefore, Zeus is a man not a GOD. Because only human kind can have a sex with another humankind and bring children. If Zeus is a man then he is not a GOD. Every man dies therefore Jesus will die if he didn't yet. Therefore, he is not GOD. Do you want more proofs?
There is tons of articles that disprove the evolution theory....
h t t p : / / w w w . abovetopsecret. c o m / forum / thread163678 / pg1
No but they disprove the evolution is our origin. Which only helps you to see that what you used (to base your assumption that GOD doesn't exist) is false. Therefore, I have no idea from where did you get that assumption.....
You said 10 lame reasons. But they still are true unless you have a proof against them.
Why do we need at least 10'18 years? Can you explain this to me? I've heard this before, but please, explain to me why RNA could not be mathematically possible. Feel free to go into detail.
Lets assume the length of the first sequence RNA is around 100 (It is more)
we have 4 types of nucleotide. So we have 4^100 different ways to arrange the RNA sequence. 4^100 = 1.6 * 10^60 (you can verify)
If we assumed some there are 100* 10^6 species. Then we remove it from the total count. I will divide it will be easier (even though I should subtract); 1.6*10^52.
I used MAX number of any limit. You can verify all numbers but even if you add factor of 10^19 that won't change the fact that our universe is younger than that number.
lol, This is funny because it reminds me of the claim that the earth is only 6'000 years old. Surely you do not agree with this, however, the reasoning was that the amount of helium increase in our atmosphere was exponential in the last few decades, therefore, if the earth was older then 6'000 then the helium increase by modern time would be far too great to support life. Therefore, Young Earth/Designer!
Your equation seeks to deliberately leaves out the factors that make it implausible.
"This proof might contain one statements that breaks the whole way of your thinking. The sperms are one of them too...."
Of course, but the track record shows the opposite. It is more likely the the origin of heredity is much more simple then we think, and that new discoveries will lead to more simplistic explanations. I'm agnostic to ideas that cannot be prove or are unfalsifiable. These ideas are NOT a competitive theories, they are merely nonsense. Even an Hypothesis requires some sense.
This is another question I should clarify, and I feel it is a question that people of faith often ask. This is what you "BELIEVE"?. When studying a science, you must concede that this is not a question of belief. After all, Darwin himself in the presence of evidence, could not yet bring himself to believe his OWN findings. Belief merely gets in the way of science. Science need not have our belief, truth is what it is no matter what we wish to believe.
Well flash news for you. Evolution is not an accepted theory to explain the existence of mankind. This theory explain some specific examples but can not be generalize. You are not talking from science back-ground. It is rather science fiction....
Elaborate on what you are stating. Evolution explains the passing on of hereditary traits, the evolution from one species to another. You are obviously confused.
"This theory explain some specific examples but can not be generalize."
I know it is like you to find deep meaning in vague statements, but this is a little too vague for me to make sense of.
We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create!
}
Is it vague or not clear ?
If you study human biololgy you will see the order is exactly the same,
This is very metaphorically vague. These are possible observation made at the time, but without proper technology, it is obvious why they make the statements they make. Of course, the translation from Arabic to English is shady at best.
I'm not even fully sure what this is a metaphor for?
"Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood"
Again, do you not see the metaphorical vagueness of this? If not, then you are simply being bias.
For the most part, these attempts to explain embryology are metaphorical. The lack of understanding can lead humans only to produce a selection of ideas that vaguely fit what is occurring in their observation. In this case, the observation of different stages of an embryo(which was not at all a new study of that time.) is simply a vague attempt to observe an occurrence.
If an observation was to say "The rings(metaphor) of Saturn are like a disc of matter(vague)." I would consider this vague.
Reread what I wrote, it was an explanation of how one would approach determining what is vague and metaphorical. It was an example of how to approach metaphorically vague texts using logic.
I just forgot to mention something you knew how the planet did construct. I mean you phrased your sentences according to that. Do you follow what I am saying ?
Moreover, You will never find similar example to yours in the Qur'an. Whenever there is a fact. There is this or similar sentance: "These are solid proofs for people who think."
for example [Nobel Qur'an 13:3]
{
[13:3] He is the One who constructed the earth and placed on it mountains and rivers. And from the different kinds of fruits, He made them into pairs - males and females. The night overtakes the day. These are solid proofs for people who think.
This is NOT proof for people who think, because anyone who has a good understanding of words and logic can easily see the problem in metaphors.
This is a metaphorically VAGUE sentence. This tells us nothing about continental drift, or how one plate tectonics push against one another and the upper shelf becomes mountains and the other pushes under the crust and into the mantle. How is this any different then my cook book example?
"He is the One who constructed the earth and placed on it mountains and rivers"
This tells us nothing about HOW the earth was "constructed" or how mountains and rivers come about. This is not science, nor is this proof of scientific understanding. Many civilizations before the 7th century had similar creation myths. Each one was a metaphorically vague concept of how the earth might have possibly formed.
To anyone who understands language, logic, and science can easily discount such poesy.
Do you not concede that to suggest that night and day are 'equal' time is no feat of knowledge for someone who can obviously observe day and night pass? How is this proof of scientific understanding?
Not only is this unimpressive in terms of poetic metaphors, but it is exceedingly unimpressive in terms of observation let alone scientific understandings.
Why can't you study science through use of ONLY the Qur'an. Can you answer me this in detail?
What does the word mean in Arabic, Continental Drift perhaps?
Again, the problem you are ignoring is the fact that these are simply vague metaphors. You are being bias and therefore applying meaning to these metaphorical creation myths. What you are doing with the creation myth of the Qur'an can be done with any other creation myth from the past(Greek, Norse, Egyptian etc).
It is human to give meaning to something where no meaning may be, to believe in a conspiracy where no conspiracy exists.
Remember the male is the one that determines the sex of the child.
It is not me or you. The Creator gave many and many of evidence in his book. Yet you don't believe. Please read more about it from the website I gave it to you.
Because the science is not the goal. The goal is to prove the book is not written by a man. By accepting this, and believing in Qur'an is the word of GOD. You will be able to accept the truth about Almighty and following his commandments in Qur'an. Science is just a tool for people who thinks and don't follow anyone blindly. There is no reason to believe GOD wanted us to gain more knowledge about science. It is just a tool to prove the Qur'an is actually sent by Almighty.
The reason science cannot be learned by reading the Qur'an is that it is devoid of the substance we call science. If you are to argue that there are scientific claims made in the Qur'an, then you should be capable of explaining these scientific claims through the use of the Qur'an. The fact that you cannot is a clear demonstration that the Qur'an cannot possibly hold scientific truths. Again, this is only the act of applying our own modern understandings to these 7th century vague metaphors.
Can't you see between your level of writing and Qur'an level. It is far superior than yours. Even though it is just translation. The original language is more and more superior.
I've encountered this before with a Muslim claiming scientific understandings in the Qur'an. Again, this is a metaphorically vague text. The language used is language used merely by a people incapable of understanding the intricacies of Embryology.
Humans attempting to understand embryology was not new during the 7th century, Humans were already attempting to understand this 1000 years before the Qur'an. Epigenesis is not delivered to man by God, but can be considered a better explanation.
Can you find a single verse against scientific facts ?
It is strange how people can interpret Qur'an to fit the science yet they can't find anything that goes against the scientific facts. Therefore, Muhammad who never was able to read or to write was able to collect only truth and nothing else. How is that possible ?
I gave the truth. It is up to you to believe it or not.
You should take a read on Epigenesis, which is a very old study done on the stages of pregnancy for spores and eggs.
You've done nothing at all to impress me. You seem to ignore all the points I make, for obvious bias reasons of course.
If you are not willing to have an open mind to the evidence of religion being a man made invention, and that the Qur'an is merely a product of regurgitated myths and stories and perhapes a few new ideologies, then you will always be a follower of blind faith.
from approximately 300bc, long before the Qur'an wrote about their concept of embryology. Just to demonstrate that it is not unlikely for people of that time to have a vague understanding of what goes on during pregnancy.
More over it is very clear that spores and eggs are like humans. LOL
It is a very stupid statement you just gave and you say that you know what you are talking and tell me to have an open mind yet you have a closed one like a rock.
More over Prophet Muhammad wasn't able to read or write and he spoke only Arabic.......
The Mormon prophet used a seeing stone and candle light to decipher golden tablets. Again, it is amazing the extent that hucksters are willing to go to sell their nonsense.
Again, 300 BC, studies were done on the stages of pregnancy. Such a concept is not difficult to believe, after all, birth control and abortion even at these times was performed.
"spores were known 300BC"
Yah, what is so difficult to accept about the knowledge of large clusters of spores around 300bc? They are easy to find.
Yes, spores comes from the greek word "spora" meaning seed. These early concepts of spores were of course not as detailed as today, because of lack of technology, but hypothetically they were thought to be much like seeds.
So in Greek they studied pregnancy of spores which where hypothetically like seeds......... Is it me or this sound stupid ?
Any way how that is related to anything inside the Qur'an. I never testified that no one attempted to understand biology or science.
What I said was; Only 100% accurate information are in Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad didn't know how to read or write (HE WAS illiterate) and he spoke only one language which is Arabic.
No, separate studies. I suggested they studied a myriad forms of biological replication whether it be pregnancy, spores or eggs. They would study the stages of fetal growth etc.
My point, was that this information was already around long before the Qur'an was written. Why would a deity think providing already available knowledge as being the least bit impressive?(rhetorical)
The Qur'an is not 100% accurate. It is vague, metaphorical, poetic which is fallacious for the argument you are making.
Still Muhammad was illiterate. You still trying to say that there was science. Yet so many different stuff, They said the Earth was the center of universe, Earth was flat, and so on. Why Qur'an didn't contain any of these stuff ?
Why there is not a single scientific error in the Qur'an ?
You say it is vague. Then simply give me a counter example and prove your statement.
Using math and calculations, someone roughly 1000 years before the Qur'an knew within a few 100 kilometers the circumference of the planet. Again, why would it impress me to hear that a religion included this into the knowledge of it's text?
The claim of illiteracy is no different the the claim that Joseph Smith used a seeing stone to copy Hieroglyph from gold tablets. I'm more likely to think that either the believer is under a misapprehension, or there is a more reasonable explanation.
You are the one ignoring all my points, ignoring all my arguments. You can only claim that I'm "running" or that "I don't have an answer." but you are simply doing nothing to back up your assertion.
With respect to basic critical thinking and logic, you've committed so many fallacies yet continue to claim victory. Only a deluded faith based believer can be so blind in the face of logic.
If your best claim for the authenticity and validity of the Qur'an is that the author is illiterate, then you are failing miserably.
To claim that God exists, is a deistic claim. You must first prove your deistic claim before you can get to work on proving your theistic claims. Each theistic claim and "miracle" must be taken as a separate case. Again though, before claiming a miracle of God, you must first prove a God.
Your equation is: Abiogenesis is only hypothetical + the voracious sense of design we infer onto the universe = God.
Wow, need this be any more fallacious?(rhetorical, this need not be anymore fallacious.) Despite the infinite regression such a claim leads to, I will set aside logic for this one point and(for arguments sake) allow for the existence of a designer. This leaves you only as a deist. How do you get from Deism to theism?
I don't really understand the question, maybe it is just badly phrased. Do you mean to ask, how did the first organism come about? I could only point you in the direction of studies done in abiogenesis. The term organism raises a dilemma for most people on this subject, so a more suitable question should be, what is the origin of heredity. There are many hypotheses on this subject, so I cannot give you a definite answers.
The reasoning is that elements found in clay can be found in humans, therefore, humans are made of elements and therefore are made of clay.
I can see why fallacious logic like this can be convincing to the weak minded, but this only makes me sick. This is purely a demonstration of the unethical deception religions are willing to go to as a system for faith based hucksters.
Equivocation fallacy, argument by poetic language and much of the conclusions simply do not follow, complete non sequitur.
To say that Adam is made from Clay, is to ignore Adam, and to ignore evolution. Who is Adam? A metaphor for the first human? What would you call the first human? The Qur'an like it's monotheistic parents do nothing to explain the world. These religions do nothing but produce divisions among humans and seek only to push their fallaciously contrived morals.
"In the beginning there was an empty darkness. The only thing in this void was Nyx, a bird with black wings. With the wind she laid a golden egg and for ages she sat upon this egg. Finally life began to stir in the egg and out of it rose Eros, the god of love. One half of the shell rose into the air and became the sky and the other became the Earth. Eros named the sky Uranus and the Earth he named Gaia. Then Eros made them fall in love."
To accept one metaphorically vague creation story as proof of scientific understandings is to ignore all other metaphorically vague creation stories who by the same means must be proof of even earlier scientific understandings.
You are being bias to your creation myth simply because you are Muslim. If you were Hindu, Greek or a believer in any of the other countless religions, you would of course be partial to your creation myth.
I choose to only know what we CAN know, not what we WANT to know.
Islam is actually a plagiarism of Judaism and Christianity. Sadly, Judaism and Christianity in turn are plagiarisms of other ideologies, myth and stories of early human life. All of which of course are formulated in the early humans lack of knowledge of the world around them.
This is not a belief, but a claim backed by evidence and facts: Islam and religion is a system of control and beliefs, these were produced by man in a time when he did not understand the simple workings of the world.
Only ignorant holds to the same statement. But the problem with it. Qur'an only contain 100% facts and truth. All other books contain many contradictions and lies.
Learn the truth don't listen to others. Read for yourself and learn what really is the truth.
All Islamic System is perfect yet you claim that Muhammad didn't understand the simple workings of the world I will tell it might be true. But Islamic System is a revelation from Almighty that's why it is perfect System
I wrote this 5 months ago, and my statement still stands. You suggest that the Qur'an only contains 100% facts and truth. Already, this is a failed claim. We know the origins of many of the legends and myths found in the Qur'an, and where they derive from before monotheism. Many of which are metaphorical stories that relate to the movements of celestial bodies, stories like Adam and Eve or Noah.
To disagree with me is to deny truth, truth that is readily available to anyone willing to wonder.
Well if you read both stories there are differences.
In bible Adam and Eve; Satan came to Eve she ate after that he came to Adam. In Qur'an Satan came to both of them there is no blame on Eve.
Noah, this is a great and stupid mistake in the bible. The bible says that the Noah took all the animals from every kind were inside the Ship and the whole world was in water (which is historically wrong). Qur'an state that there was water covering however only in the area of Noah.
As I said, these are all myths and stories from earlier human history. Adam and Eve, and the Story of Noah and his flood are examples from early Mesopotamia during bronze age.
If you took the time to look and research, you will find many if not most of these stories and myths from earlier human history when mankind was mainly polytheistic.
The most reasonable explanation for this ever evolving concept of a Divinities is that, it is MAN-MADE. Prove me wrong.
Secondly, If many of these stories can be tracked back as far as 7 millenniums before the existence of monotheism, you must accept that these stories have their origin in polytheism. If polytheism is not true for you, then these stories are a human invention, therefore, the stories of your Qur'an are regurgitations of these earlier myths and stories. Why would your God plagiarize myths of earlier human history?
This is not a mystery for me if I'm under the presupposition that theism is Man-made.
Did you read what I wrote. The stories did happen in reality Qur'an has other proofs to support the truth about it
Did you check the website?
It contains many of these proofs
It seems you are an atheist. Then don't focus on the stories focus on other aspects like the scientific facts. Try to think about those. Because Qur'an only contain 100% truth about the scientific facts and not a single verse against any scientific fact. This is the truth, check:
I read what you wrote, but what you write is completely devoid of meaning when dealing with historical evidence. What are you trying to say when you say that "The Stories did happen in reality", when dealing with historical evidence that shows many of these stories occurred only in fictional accounts that describe merely the movement of celestial bodies in the sky. For instance, 12 apostles relates heavily to the movement of 12 celestial arrangements in our night sky. Not 12 humans.
A story over time will turn into a legend Less evidence you will have less sure you will be. That's one of the reason I don't believe how Christians believe in Jesus. We Muslims believe in the events and Jesus not because anyone told us. The other proofs that the book wasn't written by a man is good enough evidence that the other stories holds. Especially the scientific facts that we got the ensure us that the other stuff are true. There is not a single verse against scientific facts.
You have some evidence that the might not happened. But they are not 100% proofs. There are many other reasons why the stories lost their evidences. But whatever the reason is it is not enough to conclude that they never happened. However you can verify the scientific facts written in Qur'an one by one. They are visual and physical miracles and evidences revealed 1400 years ago.
Again, this is often the case that a Muslim will argue for 'science' in the Qur'an. Which is to greatly ignore what the term 'science' means. Science does not deal in metaphors, however, if you are to suggest that there is science in the Qur'an. Can you be a surgeon or a neurologist by studying the Qur'an? Can you cure viral infections through the study of the Qur'an? Of course not. Vague metaphors are not proof of scientific knowledge. Does the Qur'an tells us about Venus and it's atmosphere?
Do they leave our the cure for HIV/AIDS or Cancer in the Qur'an? What is the cure for Cancer? Can you refer to me the metaphor that is suggestive of the known cure for cancer? Or does the Qur'an only offer vague metaphors for understandings that were already known at the time. Or Vague metaphors that have no relation to any recently discovered scientific understandings. You seem like someone more willing to believe in a conspiracy where no conspiracy exists.
"Qur'an contains information to prove that the book wasn't written by a man 1400 years ago."
How can the Qur'an contain scientific information but not be a book of science? What you mean to say is that the Qur'an can be metaphorically compared to current scientific understandings. Much like any document from ancient history with enough effort of course. Even the Ancient Greek concept of creation can be metaphorically compared to modern understandings.
If I want you to believe the book is from the Creator what kind of proofs do you need to believe that ?
For example revealed some information that only Almighty would have known 1400 years ago. Scientific facts are only one aspect of Qur'an there many others.
Many scientific truths that the Qur'an claims HAD been known at that time, and it is difficult to believe that human may have known these scientific truths. However, the metaphorically vague comparison made between science and Qur'an can be interpreted both as valid and invalid. This is a main dilemma with vague metaphors.
Maybe some of them were general guesses but Qur'an only contain the true facts. It didn't include any non-scientific fact. If you study probability. You will know that for this to happen is a very very very very low chance. Also it contains facts like on cell level, on planet level, on universe level.
So funny........its great to see him have a sense of humour !
ikadir18 4 months ago
The whole thing was in English except the funny part -_- lol.
Dialahh 8 months ago
translation pls?
hamid954 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The priest says (in Hindi) that if he had space (in his stomach) to have the digestive, he would have eaten two more laddus.(indian sweet)
ikadir18 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@hamid954 The priest says (in Hindi) that if he had space (in his stomach) to have the digestive, he would have eaten two more laddus.(indian sweet)
ikadir18 4 months ago
what did he say in hindi
alhaqiqa1 1 year ago
Comment removed
abdulbasithka 1 year ago
@alhaqiqa1 The priest says (in Hindi) that if he had space (in his stomach) to have the digestive, he would have eaten two more laddus.
abdulbasithka 1 year ago
Lol
sajnotts 1 year ago
You asked me a simple question; does GOD exist? Can you prove it.
My answer:
I told you it is easy.
1-I asked you before. how the first organism was found on earth.
2-How do you explain the sperm design ?
Because sperms leave male's body and never return to improve the design.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
I don't understand, how is this an answer? This is a complete non sequitur. Is your evidence also proof of Zeus? Thor? Apollo? Athena? Cronos? Yuyu? Yaya? Juju? or any of the other million gods of human history?
This is such a ridiculous statement. To suggest sperm is designed is to infer design onto sperm. Evolution shows that the complexity of biological life we see today is easily achievable, and only requires time, and replicating organism to pass on hereditary traits.
Gwisss 2 years ago
What kind of evolution?
Because evolution means upgrade. But the same object upgrade. Then sperm is leaving and never coming back from the female body, How evolution explains that?
I didn't yet meet an atheist who can answer that question.
But I will give you a chance. Go ahead.....
simpleOgre 2 years ago
So? Why does the sperm need to come back? This question is seemingly ridiculous. Can you clarify your point a little better and maybe I can respond to something more coherent.
Evolution of Biological life does not mean to 'upgrade'. The hereditary genes of a surviving organism get passed down generation after generation, and over millions of years this evolution by natural selection tends to choose the best genes for survival and growth.
Gwisss 2 years ago
The Genes are the blueprint so to speak of the biological machine that evolution has decided is the best machine for the job. Sperm is part of this blue print, and is a part of a system of selection. If sperm does not come back to a male, this has no bearing on the outcome of whether his genes get replicated or not. There is not a conscious upgrade made by the genes, the genes are put through the gauntlet of evolution by natural selection.
Gwisss 2 years ago
"Because sperms leave male's body and never return to improve the design."
What does this even mean?!
Gwisss 2 years ago
It means evolution has nothing to do with it....
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Evolution has nothing to do with an organism? Are you sure about this?
Gwisss 2 years ago
Yes with sperm design it has nothing to do with it.
How did the sperm know exactly what the female body contains and how it is prepared to suppress all the safety guard that the female reproduction system has.
Because no sperm came back to our body to tell us how female body works.....
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Sperm need not return to the host with a detailed analysis of a female body, to supply a treasure map so to speak. This is nonsensical. Sperm does what it does not because of design, but because of hundreds of millions of years of evolution have evolved the complex way in which biological life replicates. If earliest form of replicating organism when 'sharing' their genes with another in order to produce an offspring could not do the act of 'sharing' then they would not produce offspring.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Sperm need not return to the host with a detailed analysis of a female body,
----------------
You really believe that ?
I can accept that our eye's cells did evolve to be able to see. Our nose did evolve do be able to smell. But how can you explain the sperm ?
It is really nonsensical that you think that you can explain the sperm design by evolution......
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Of course sperm can be explained through evolution.
If you have the critical thinking and understanding to accept how an eye or and nose could be created. Then you must accept by the same exercise of thought, the obvious reasons why sperms function without the necessity of design.
"It is really nonsensical that you think that you can explain the sperm design by evolution......"
It is nonsensical to think that sperm is designed.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Lets see if I can make an analogy.
Take a target and an archers for instance. Lets say that these archers spend much of their time shooting aimlessly at the targets, and only a few archers hit the target. The archers that hit the target, have offspring with the target. After a few million years, you will find that these archers are now excellent marksmen, and their arrows can even do activities like direct themselves at a target. It simply takes millions of years to produce good marksmen.
Gwisss 2 years ago
So you are comparing sperms with archers ?
Well at least the archers get a feed back that they did hit the target or not. Sperm has no feedback therefore, your example is invalid......
simpleOgre 2 years ago
I'm comparing the arrows with sperm.
Any analogy is a not going to be a water tight analogy. This is the problem with metaphors and allegories(which is why the Qur'an is a failure on such an issue).
You must understand, if the sperm succeeds, the offspring will hold the same genetic makeup. Therefore, will have sperm capable of doing its job. If the organism did not have sperm capable of doing it's job, it did not have offspring. Early forms of sperm were simplistic, and evolved to complexity.
Gwisss 2 years ago
It is even more stupid comparison....
Because still the archers getting the feedback and trying to improve the path. Yet the arrows has nothing to do with it......
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Just use science and explain it to me. Explain the design of the sperm and how it was prepared to be sent into female's body without a feed back.....
simpleOgre 2 years ago
What do you mean by feed back?
The 'feed back' would have to come in the offspring produced. If offspring were not produced there would not be 'feed back'. If you want a detailed explanation on the evolution of Sperm, there are articles to read on this. Science is a complex field of study, and volumes and volumes of books are constantly being written and rewritten on these subjects. 500 characters is simply not enough.
Gwisss 2 years ago
What does evolution mean ?
It is a simple question...
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Evolution: more or less means change, or gradual change.
Biological Evolution: Is the theoretical process by which species of organism develop from earlier organism. Passing on slight variations of hereditary genes to following generations.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Why evolution does happen?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Evolution occurs because there are slight variations in the passing on of hereditary traits. You get genes from both the male and female and in doing this trade you get a natural mutation of the gene 'code' so to speak. This allows for slight gradual variations in species which ultimately over millions of years allows for large variations in organism.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Well, that is why analogies fail for such scientific subjects.
It is amazing how you spent the last few days arguing about how analogies, metaphors and allegories are somehow water tight against critique of fallibility. As soon as I use one analogy, you tell me how much of a failure analogies are. Great, you proved my previous dozen comments.
Gwisss 2 years ago
No, I am using a logical proof.
If I can prove that there is no possible way to sperm to exist by itself. Then there is someone did create the design of it. It is a scientific proof.
Do you want a name of this kind of proofs ?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
It is very clear you don't have the answer. I am still stick with my statements no atheist was able to answer this question.
Yet I have another one which is more into math then biology.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
You are simply being ignorant of the countless studies being done on this subject. You are simply begging that all atheist must deffinately demonstrate the evolution of sperm, and if they can't, therefore God exists. Give me a break. This is the most fallacious nonsensical ignorance you've produced to date. Evolution by natural selection has been demonstrated to be the natural guiding force for replicating organism, and to think otherwise is to ignore OBVIOUS evidence and probability.
Gwisss 2 years ago
It is easy to say. Just provide these evidence with understanding or just don't adopt any claim you yourself don't understand.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
I understand how evolution occurs, and of what I read it is the most probable explanation. You are being OVERTLY fallacious in expecting all knowledge to be known about HOW specific characteristics of organism evolved. We know that they HAVE evolved but it is the HOW which is the area which is in deep study. I do not have all the answers for HOW different characteristic evolved, but it is the MOST probable choice.
What is your theory for how sperm came about?
Gwisss 2 years ago
the theory of how sperm come is simple.
I understood what is evolution. Pretty nice theory. It can be applied to any organism and part. BUT the sperms are cells leaving our bodies and never come back. If you understand how evolution happen then you will know it is impossible for sperms to evolved without knowing the destination (female body). It is just impossible to happen.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
It is possible for sperms to evolve without returning to the body from which is came. There are millions of sperm in action, and these sperm compete with each other for replication. The sperm capable of carrying it's genetic info to the female egg, will produce an offspring, therefore, it's genetic makeup for the sperm and the male who supplied the sperm will be passed on. This is how sperm evolves, it has it's very own competition among its own sperm to replicate.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Maybe you've read a specific article talking about how science does not have the origins of heredity, and think that this has to do with the evolution of sperm in organism. These are TWO different fields of study. Origins of heredity and the evolution of sperm are separate issues altogether. Sperm evolves, but the origin of heredity is a bit more complex then that.
Gwisss 2 years ago
It would be like asking me, how did the first form of feathers evolve? If I said, I don't know. You would say "Ah ha! God must have designed them!".
Do you not see the problem with this?
Gwisss 2 years ago
I asked why evolution happens ?
Was it a hard question?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Evolution occurs from the slight variation in the replication of genes. The question was answered multiple times already.
Gwisss 2 years ago
I am not asking HOW. I AM asking WHY.....
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Why and How it rains are different? Or are you asking what is the purpose of evolution? You are very confusing.
Gwisss 2 years ago
There is a reason why we have rains and there is a way how that is happening.
Yes, I am asking why any organism evolves. Which will mean what is the purpose of evolution.
I am sorry if I was confusing.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Well, to say that there is a reason WHY we have rain is subjective. It rains because it rains, there is no purpose to rain. Just like there is no purpose or goal to evolution. Evolution simply occurs naturally. Is this the answer you were looking for?
Gwisss 2 years ago
Well there is a very clear reason to rain. Do you think rains just happen to drop from the sky.....
There is a balance in everything, chemical and natural balance. It rains for many reasons. one of them is to keep balance.
There is nothing that occurs simply. Everything have a reason.
What is the main reason for evolution??
simpleOgre 2 years ago
I beg to differ, it does not rain to keep balance, nor does everything have a purpose. As humans we infer purpose onto natural forces, and this is our nature as human beings.
The planet functions as it does not out for a reason, or a purpose but simply because natural forces have been left up to their own devices.
Gwisss 2 years ago
There is facts and reason and there is what you desire. But both of them won't lead to same conclusions.
So what you are just saying there is no rules and everything is just random.....
Very scientific. Especially the part that everything is just like that.
Why there is gravity? Why there is electromagnetic fields. Why is there dark matter. You don't have answer nor any human to these questions. Do you know why ? Because you don't have enough facts. How did you conclude GOD doesn't exist ?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
God is an unfalsifiable claim, a claim we have no reason to believe is any more true then the existence of any other mythological character or legendary story. The existence of God is as equal to believing in the existence of leprechauns or Bigfoot. If we accepted the existence of all these unfalsifiable creatures, then we would have so much nonsense to deal with. Until you can prove the existence of God, then it is irrational to conclude without evidence that he exists.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Secondly, the track record for science has shown that the more we discover about how the world works, the less places there is for a God to hide. It was thought Gods caused rain, caused thunder, made the ground shake. These of course have been explained away, and God no longer throws lightning or stomps on the ground. God no longer rides the sun chariot. The gaps of knowledge where humans resort to placing God, as history has shown, will be filled in with better explanation.
Gwisss 2 years ago
But your whole assumption is just based on non-scientific proof. You don't have proof but you chose to believe that he doesn't exist. It is just your own desire.
God has signs of his existence in many places. Qur'an is one of them. Science didn't show you anything. Just incomplete picture of the whole. You are basing your assumption on an incomplete proof. This proof might contain one statements that breaks the whole way of your thinking. The sperms are one of them too....
simpleOgre 2 years ago
The Qur'an according to archaeological and historical data shows that it originates from the same legends and stories of the other monotheism. This is the most probable truth.
Secondly, God is an UNFALSIFIABLE claim. There is no reason to believe he exists. There is perfectly reasonable evidence to prove that the theistic God of the Qur'an or earlier monotheism is purely fabricated. But the Deistic God remains in our gap of knowledge.
Gwisss 2 years ago
There are stories and other facts that are not in any of the other books. Like Egyptian crucified people did you know that ?
Most people thinks it is an error in the Qur'an but if you go to the original meaning of the word crucifixion it will means kill someone by putting on a stick.
If you study Egyptian history then you will find out that they did kill people by hanging them on stick.
Shared stories come because they are from the same origin. But yet there are a lot more stories and more.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
This is not proof of a God.
You have to understand that EVEN IF there was knowledge in the Qur'an that could not have been known by humans (which all evidence shows that there is not, and the claims are made only on metaphorically vague analogies.) this would NOT be evidence of a creator.
Gwisss 2 years ago
I didn't say it is proof of GOD. All I said same stories come because they are from same origin.
Can you disprove that ?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
How do you explain prophet Muhammad access to all the information, Even though he was illiterate and he spoke only Arabic. Because for example; All fruits are pairs. Everything living is created from water. Expanding universe. All of them are explicit scientific facts.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Again, we are going full circle! This is becoming a circular argument with you.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Because you are trying to say that you don't believe in GOD and you don't have a proof that GOD doesn't exist.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
If you want to protect your point of view at least proof it. Or just don't adopt any idea that you don't fully understand.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
You do not have proof that God exists.. You can only offer arbitrary reasons why you think there is a God, which ignores the volumes of evidence contrary to your claims.
Secondly, GOD IS UNFALSIFIABLE! This means, you cannot prove he does not exist because like all unfalsifiable claims, there is NO WAY to test such a theory.
Thirdly, do you believe that Zeus exists? or Apollo? Do you believe in the Tooth fairy or leprechauns?
Gwisss 2 years ago
I do sperms design is the proof. First creation the proof (I didn't talk about this but to have an RNA from chemicals we need at least 10^18 years while our universe is just 13.7 * 10^9 years if you want I can prove it to you) . And the Qur'an with historical and scientific facts and other different miracles.
There is one Creator of everything, Zeus had sex with females. Almighty is more high. It is same like having sex with a robot. LOL
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Again, sperm is not designed, the complex sperm we have today is a product of evolution. Don't be ignorant of this fact with the amount of articles there are to read on this subject. Secondly, the origin of heredity is DIFFERENT then the evolution of sperm. You cannot prove that the origin of heredity began with a designer, because that would require MUCH FURTHER explanation.
Secondly you cannot prove Zeus does not exist, therefore, by your standards he exists.
Gwisss 2 years ago
I believe in science. Therefore, Zeus is a man not a GOD. Because only human kind can have a sex with another humankind and bring children. If Zeus is a man then he is not a GOD. Every man dies therefore Jesus will die if he didn't yet. Therefore, he is not GOD. Do you want more proofs?
There is tons of articles that disprove the evolution theory....
h t t p : / / w w w . abovetopsecret. c o m / forum / thread163678 / pg1
simpleOgre 2 years ago
There are 10 reasons for that. Number 4 is the sperms :)
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Well, 10 lame reasons that are fallacious to begin are not enough to the decades of advancement done in evolution.
If you think that 10 creationist fabrications are evidence for the disproof of God, then you are fooling yourself.
Gwisss 2 years ago
No but they disprove the evolution is our origin. Which only helps you to see that what you used (to base your assumption that GOD doesn't exist) is false. Therefore, I have no idea from where did you get that assumption.....
You said 10 lame reasons. But they still are true unless you have a proof against them.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
h t t p : / / skepticblog. org / 2009 / 02 / 09 / ten-major-flaws-of-evolution-a-refutation /
Creationism is popular in the United States, and here is a website that deals with such cases.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Why do we need at least 10'18 years? Can you explain this to me? I've heard this before, but please, explain to me why RNA could not be mathematically possible. Feel free to go into detail.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Lets assume the length of the first sequence RNA is around 100 (It is more)
we have 4 types of nucleotide. So we have 4^100 different ways to arrange the RNA sequence. 4^100 = 1.6 * 10^60 (you can verify)
If we assumed some there are 100* 10^6 species. Then we remove it from the total count. I will divide it will be easier (even though I should subtract); 1.6*10^52.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Are you taking into account all factors?
Gwisss 2 years ago
Yes I do.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
I'm sure
Gwisss 2 years ago
I used MAX number of any limit. You can verify all numbers but even if you add factor of 10^19 that won't change the fact that our universe is younger than that number.
Our Earth age is around 4*10^9 years only
simpleOgre 2 years ago
lol, This is funny because it reminds me of the claim that the earth is only 6'000 years old. Surely you do not agree with this, however, the reasoning was that the amount of helium increase in our atmosphere was exponential in the last few decades, therefore, if the earth was older then 6'000 then the helium increase by modern time would be far too great to support life. Therefore, Young Earth/Designer!
Your equation seeks to deliberately leaves out the factors that make it implausible.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Yes but 6,000 years old is in bible. I don't believe the current book called bible is the true bible that Jesus narrated.
Any way I study Astronomy. from science point of view the age of all universe is very accurate. You can search for that.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
If you believe I left any factor just bring them back so I can add them.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Lets take the solar hydrogen fusion rate which is around 4.3*10^9 million per second (I think it is less you can check).
Therefore, 1.6*10^52 / (4.3 * 10^15) = 3.7 * 10^36 fusion operations per second.
How many seconds in a year 60*60*24*366 = 3.1 * 10^ 7
==>
3.7 * 10^36 / (3.1 * 10^ 7) = 10^29.
I was wrong it needs at least 10^29 years....
OUR universe age is 13.7 *10^9 years
simpleOgre 2 years ago
"This proof might contain one statements that breaks the whole way of your thinking. The sperms are one of them too...."
Of course, but the track record shows the opposite. It is more likely the the origin of heredity is much more simple then we think, and that new discoveries will lead to more simplistic explanations. I'm agnostic to ideas that cannot be prove or are unfalsifiable. These ideas are NOT a competitive theories, they are merely nonsense. Even an Hypothesis requires some sense.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Our issue is not the Qur'an. It is to prove the existence of a Creator a Designer for our bodies and cells.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
"You really believe that?"
This is another question I should clarify, and I feel it is a question that people of faith often ask. This is what you "BELIEVE"?. When studying a science, you must concede that this is not a question of belief. After all, Darwin himself in the presence of evidence, could not yet bring himself to believe his OWN findings. Belief merely gets in the way of science. Science need not have our belief, truth is what it is no matter what we wish to believe.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Well flash news for you. Evolution is not an accepted theory to explain the existence of mankind. This theory explain some specific examples but can not be generalize. You are not talking from science back-ground. It is rather science fiction....
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Elaborate on what you are stating. Evolution explains the passing on of hereditary traits, the evolution from one species to another. You are obviously confused.
"This theory explain some specific examples but can not be generalize."
I know it is like you to find deep meaning in vague statements, but this is a little too vague for me to make sense of.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Don't forget
[Nobel Qur'an 53:45-46]
"That HE did create In pairs---male and female, From a seed when lodged (In its place)."
simpleOgre 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Another verse:
"WE created you Out of dust, then out of Sperm, then out of a leech-like Clot, then out of a morsel Of flesh, partly formed And partly unformed."
[AL-QUR'AN 22:5]
simpleOgre 2 years ago
[Quran 23:13-14]
{
We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create!
}
Is it vague or not clear ?
If you study human biololgy you will see the order is exactly the same,
simpleOgre 2 years ago
This is very metaphorically vague. These are possible observation made at the time, but without proper technology, it is obvious why they make the statements they make. Of course, the translation from Arabic to English is shady at best.
I'm not even fully sure what this is a metaphor for?
"Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood"
Again, do you not see the metaphorical vagueness of this? If not, then you are simply being bias.
Gwisss 2 years ago
It is not a metaphor.
Because you lack understanding of human biology that won't change the fact that the verse is correct...
Go study biology first and come back to learn the truth about the Qur'an
simpleOgre 2 years ago
For the most part, these attempts to explain embryology are metaphorical. The lack of understanding can lead humans only to produce a selection of ideas that vaguely fit what is occurring in their observation. In this case, the observation of different stages of an embryo(which was not at all a new study of that time.) is simply a vague attempt to observe an occurrence.
If an observation was to say "The rings(metaphor) of Saturn are like a disc of matter(vague)." I would consider this vague.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Did the Qur'an says that ?
What Qur'an mentioned about the universe is the following:
47- With power did We construct heaven. Verily, We are expanding it.
[Nobel Qur'an 51:47]
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Reread what I wrote, it was an explanation of how one would approach determining what is vague and metaphorical. It was an example of how to approach metaphorically vague texts using logic.
Gwisss 2 years ago
I know I just used the opportunity to give you the verse :)
simpleOgre 2 years ago
I just forgot to mention something you knew how the planet did construct. I mean you phrased your sentences according to that. Do you follow what I am saying ?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Moreover, You will never find similar example to yours in the Qur'an. Whenever there is a fact. There is this or similar sentance: "These are solid proofs for people who think."
for example [Nobel Qur'an 13:3]
{
[13:3] He is the One who constructed the earth and placed on it mountains and rivers. And from the different kinds of fruits, He made them into pairs - males and females. The night overtakes the day. These are solid proofs for people who think.
}
Do you see the difference ?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
This is NOT proof for people who think, because anyone who has a good understanding of words and logic can easily see the problem in metaphors.
This is a metaphorically VAGUE sentence. This tells us nothing about continental drift, or how one plate tectonics push against one another and the upper shelf becomes mountains and the other pushes under the crust and into the mantle. How is this any different then my cook book example?
Gwisss 2 years ago
"He is the One who constructed the earth and placed on it mountains and rivers"
This tells us nothing about HOW the earth was "constructed" or how mountains and rivers come about. This is not science, nor is this proof of scientific understanding. Many civilizations before the 7th century had similar creation myths. Each one was a metaphorically vague concept of how the earth might have possibly formed.
To anyone who understands language, logic, and science can easily discount such poesy.
Gwisss 2 years ago
I didn't say it says anything about construction of Earth.
It state 3 points in the verse:
All fruits are pairs
Night over takes the day (means the day in total equals both day + night time, when one increase the other decrease and vise verse)
The third one is not noticeable in the translation (lol) my bad I will choose better translation next time.
I leave the third one for later until I find a better translations
In Qur'an in Arabic there is a more powerful word "constructed"
So only 2 now
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Do you not concede that to suggest that night and day are 'equal' time is no feat of knowledge for someone who can obviously observe day and night pass? How is this proof of scientific understanding?
Not only is this unimpressive in terms of poetic metaphors, but it is exceedingly unimpressive in terms of observation let alone scientific understandings.
Why can't you study science through use of ONLY the Qur'an. Can you answer me this in detail?
Gwisss 2 years ago
Well in Arabic the word is more powerful. I can see why it is hard to notice the words in English.
But still there is coherence in the sentence and there is coherence through all the Qur'an in same level of style and meaning.
Visit the site I gave you 500 char per post is not enough to explain all the aspects.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
What does the word mean in Arabic, Continental Drift perhaps?
Again, the problem you are ignoring is the fact that these are simply vague metaphors. You are being bias and therefore applying meaning to these metaphorical creation myths. What you are doing with the creation myth of the Qur'an can be done with any other creation myth from the past(Greek, Norse, Egyptian etc).
It is human to give meaning to something where no meaning may be, to believe in a conspiracy where no conspiracy exists.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Yes and no.
For example this verse:
{
53:45 That He did create in pairs,- male and female,
53:46 From a seed when lodged (in its place);
} [Nobel Qur'an 53:45-46]
Is it clear or do you want me to explain it?
Remember the male is the one that determines the sex of the child.
It is not me or you. The Creator gave many and many of evidence in his book. Yet you don't believe. Please read more about it from the website I gave it to you.
h t t p : / / w w w . quranmiracles . c o m /
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Because the science is not the goal. The goal is to prove the book is not written by a man. By accepting this, and believing in Qur'an is the word of GOD. You will be able to accept the truth about Almighty and following his commandments in Qur'an. Science is just a tool for people who thinks and don't follow anyone blindly. There is no reason to believe GOD wanted us to gain more knowledge about science. It is just a tool to prove the Qur'an is actually sent by Almighty.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
The reason science cannot be learned by reading the Qur'an is that it is devoid of the substance we call science. If you are to argue that there are scientific claims made in the Qur'an, then you should be capable of explaining these scientific claims through the use of the Qur'an. The fact that you cannot is a clear demonstration that the Qur'an cannot possibly hold scientific truths. Again, this is only the act of applying our own modern understandings to these 7th century vague metaphors.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Why you still think we need to learn science from Qur'an ??
Can you answer this question ?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
I told you Qur'an only has sings from the Creator to show that this book is not written by a man 1400 years ago. Is my writing hard to understand ?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Imagine if I said that there is the a perfect understanding of how to make a vegetarian lasagna. The text you direct me to goes something like this:
"The blankets of ours,
One on top of the other, this and that,
with not animal to be seen.
Fire is it's friend, but not too much fire."
Can you now bake me a vegetarian lasagna? What if I was to suggest that this was not proof of lasagna but pie. How are you to argue with me?
Again, not science, not a recipe, just a metaphorically vague text.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Tell me in verse 23:13-14, what is not clear or how you can interpret it in different way ?
It is very explicit and it describes the phases exactly as if you watch the process in a microscope
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Can't you see between your level of writing and Qur'an level. It is far superior than yours. Even though it is just translation. The original language is more and more superior.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Can't you see the difference* between
simpleOgre 2 years ago
I've encountered this before with a Muslim claiming scientific understandings in the Qur'an. Again, this is a metaphorically vague text. The language used is language used merely by a people incapable of understanding the intricacies of Embryology.
Humans attempting to understand embryology was not new during the 7th century, Humans were already attempting to understand this 1000 years before the Qur'an. Epigenesis is not delivered to man by God, but can be considered a better explanation.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Final proof will the following:
Can you find a single verse against scientific facts ?
It is strange how people can interpret Qur'an to fit the science yet they can't find anything that goes against the scientific facts. Therefore, Muhammad who never was able to read or to write was able to collect only truth and nothing else. How is that possible ?
I gave the truth. It is up to you to believe it or not.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Adam from dust?
Gwisss 2 years ago
I will give you 2 links (remove spaces).
From now on I will give the links so you can verify the info
h t t p : / / w w w . quranmiracles . c o m / articles . a s p ? i d = 49
good chart of human body elements
h t t p : / / w w w . miraclesofthequran. c o m / scientific_59 . h t m l
simpleOgre 2 years ago
You should take a read on Epigenesis, which is a very old study done on the stages of pregnancy for spores and eggs.
You've done nothing at all to impress me. You seem to ignore all the points I make, for obvious bias reasons of course.
If you are not willing to have an open mind to the evidence of religion being a man made invention, and that the Qur'an is merely a product of regurgitated myths and stories and perhapes a few new ideologies, then you will always be a follower of blind faith.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Study of pregnancy for spores and eggs. It is very old study also.
lol
You make me laugh.
How old the study is?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
from approximately 300bc, long before the Qur'an wrote about their concept of embryology. Just to demonstrate that it is not unlikely for people of that time to have a vague understanding of what goes on during pregnancy.
Gwisss 2 years ago
lol
spores were known 300BC ??
It is very clear that you read the book.
More over it is very clear that spores and eggs are like humans. LOL
It is a very stupid statement you just gave and you say that you know what you are talking and tell me to have an open mind yet you have a closed one like a rock.
More over Prophet Muhammad wasn't able to read or write and he spoke only Arabic.......
simpleOgre 2 years ago
The Mormon prophet used a seeing stone and candle light to decipher golden tablets. Again, it is amazing the extent that hucksters are willing to go to sell their nonsense.
Again, 300 BC, studies were done on the stages of pregnancy. Such a concept is not difficult to believe, after all, birth control and abortion even at these times was performed.
"spores were known 300BC"
Yah, what is so difficult to accept about the knowledge of large clusters of spores around 300bc? They are easy to find.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Comment removed
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Do you know what spores are ?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Yes, spores comes from the greek word "spora" meaning seed. These early concepts of spores were of course not as detailed as today, because of lack of technology, but hypothetically they were thought to be much like seeds.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Do you actually read what you write ?
So in Greek they studied pregnancy of spores which where hypothetically like seeds......... Is it me or this sound stupid ?
Any way how that is related to anything inside the Qur'an. I never testified that no one attempted to understand biology or science.
What I said was; Only 100% accurate information are in Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad didn't know how to read or write (HE WAS illiterate) and he spoke only one language which is Arabic.
.......
simpleOgre 2 years ago
No, separate studies. I suggested they studied a myriad forms of biological replication whether it be pregnancy, spores or eggs. They would study the stages of fetal growth etc.
My point, was that this information was already around long before the Qur'an was written. Why would a deity think providing already available knowledge as being the least bit impressive?(rhetorical)
The Qur'an is not 100% accurate. It is vague, metaphorical, poetic which is fallacious for the argument you are making.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Still Muhammad was illiterate. You still trying to say that there was science. Yet so many different stuff, They said the Earth was the center of universe, Earth was flat, and so on. Why Qur'an didn't contain any of these stuff ?
Why there is not a single scientific error in the Qur'an ?
You say it is vague. Then simply give me a counter example and prove your statement.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Eratosthenes, to my knowledge was the one that determined the circumference of the earth within a few hundred kilometers. This was of course a 200BC.
Have you never watched the television series called Cosmos by Carl Sagan?
Gwisss 2 years ago
Yes, I am not telling some didn't find the truth but many did believe different stuff.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Even bible testify that the earth was circle and flat.
Which only means a coin :)
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Using math and calculations, someone roughly 1000 years before the Qur'an knew within a few 100 kilometers the circumference of the planet. Again, why would it impress me to hear that a religion included this into the knowledge of it's text?
The claim of illiteracy is no different the the claim that Joseph Smith used a seeing stone to copy Hieroglyph from gold tablets. I'm more likely to think that either the believer is under a misapprehension, or there is a more reasonable explanation.
Gwisss 2 years ago
LOL.
It seems you are just running. LOL
simpleOgre 2 years ago
You are the one ignoring all my points, ignoring all my arguments. You can only claim that I'm "running" or that "I don't have an answer." but you are simply doing nothing to back up your assertion.
With respect to basic critical thinking and logic, you've committed so many fallacies yet continue to claim victory. Only a deluded faith based believer can be so blind in the face of logic.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Answer the questions......
simpleOgre 2 years ago
If your best claim for the authenticity and validity of the Qur'an is that the author is illiterate, then you are failing miserably.
To claim that God exists, is a deistic claim. You must first prove your deistic claim before you can get to work on proving your theistic claims. Each theistic claim and "miracle" must be taken as a separate case. Again though, before claiming a miracle of God, you must first prove a God.
Gwisss 2 years ago
I told you it is easy.
1-I asked you before. how the first organism was found on earth.
2-How do you explain the sperm design ?
Because sperms leave male's body and never return to improve the design.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Lets put this into a logical formate shall we?
Your equation is: Abiogenesis is only hypothetical + the voracious sense of design we infer onto the universe = God.
Wow, need this be any more fallacious?(rhetorical, this need not be anymore fallacious.) Despite the infinite regression such a claim leads to, I will set aside logic for this one point and(for arguments sake) allow for the existence of a designer. This leaves you only as a deist. How do you get from Deism to theism?
Gwisss 2 years ago
Are you just running from answering my questions. Or simply you don't have an answer ?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
"how the first organism was found on earth.?"
I don't really understand the question, maybe it is just badly phrased. Do you mean to ask, how did the first organism come about? I could only point you in the direction of studies done in abiogenesis. The term organism raises a dilemma for most people on this subject, so a more suitable question should be, what is the origin of heredity. There are many hypotheses on this subject, so I cannot give you a definite answers.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Those articles were utterly ridiculous.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Comment removed
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Why ?
Because you have some kind of proof in your mind that the data isn't accurate ?
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Because they are utterly nonsensical.
"We created man from an extract of clay."
The reasoning is that elements found in clay can be found in humans, therefore, humans are made of elements and therefore are made of clay.
I can see why fallacious logic like this can be convincing to the weak minded, but this only makes me sick. This is purely a demonstration of the unethical deception religions are willing to go to as a system for faith based hucksters.
Gwisss 2 years ago
what do you want Almighty to name you the elements for you? LOL
Yes, and I can see how deep your knowledge is... LOL
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Equivocation fallacy, argument by poetic language and much of the conclusions simply do not follow, complete non sequitur.
To say that Adam is made from Clay, is to ignore Adam, and to ignore evolution. Who is Adam? A metaphor for the first human? What would you call the first human? The Qur'an like it's monotheistic parents do nothing to explain the world. These religions do nothing but produce divisions among humans and seek only to push their fallaciously contrived morals.
Gwisss 2 years ago
"In the beginning there was an empty darkness. The only thing in this void was Nyx, a bird with black wings. With the wind she laid a golden egg and for ages she sat upon this egg. Finally life began to stir in the egg and out of it rose Eros, the god of love. One half of the shell rose into the air and became the sky and the other became the Earth. Eros named the sky Uranus and the Earth he named Gaia. Then Eros made them fall in love."
This is ancient Greeks creation story.
Gwisss 2 years ago
To accept one metaphorically vague creation story as proof of scientific understandings is to ignore all other metaphorically vague creation stories who by the same means must be proof of even earlier scientific understandings.
You are being bias to your creation myth simply because you are Muslim. If you were Hindu, Greek or a believer in any of the other countless religions, you would of course be partial to your creation myth.
I choose to only know what we CAN know, not what we WANT to know.
Gwisss 2 years ago
wat evs man it is a true religion also, ur qoute is stupid, it can be both
simpleJb 3 years ago
islam is not a true relegion?????ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELEGION...ALLAHU AKBAR
khalednaz 3 years ago
Islam is actually a plagiarism of Judaism and Christianity. Sadly, Judaism and Christianity in turn are plagiarisms of other ideologies, myth and stories of early human life. All of which of course are formulated in the early humans lack of knowledge of the world around them.
This is not a belief, but a claim backed by evidence and facts: Islam and religion is a system of control and beliefs, these were produced by man in a time when he did not understand the simple workings of the world.
Gwisss 3 years ago
Only ignorant holds to the same statement. But the problem with it. Qur'an only contain 100% facts and truth. All other books contain many contradictions and lies.
Learn the truth don't listen to others. Read for yourself and learn what really is the truth.
All Islamic System is perfect yet you claim that Muhammad didn't understand the simple workings of the world I will tell it might be true. But Islamic System is a revelation from Almighty that's why it is perfect System
Good Luck
simpleOgre 2 years ago
I wrote this 5 months ago, and my statement still stands. You suggest that the Qur'an only contains 100% facts and truth. Already, this is a failed claim. We know the origins of many of the legends and myths found in the Qur'an, and where they derive from before monotheism. Many of which are metaphorical stories that relate to the movements of celestial bodies, stories like Adam and Eve or Noah.
To disagree with me is to deny truth, truth that is readily available to anyone willing to wonder.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Well if you read both stories there are differences.
In bible Adam and Eve; Satan came to Eve she ate after that he came to Adam. In Qur'an Satan came to both of them there is no blame on Eve.
Noah, this is a great and stupid mistake in the bible. The bible says that the Noah took all the animals from every kind were inside the Ship and the whole world was in water (which is historically wrong). Qur'an state that there was water covering however only in the area of Noah.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Comment removed
simpleOgre 2 years ago
As I said, these are all myths and stories from earlier human history. Adam and Eve, and the Story of Noah and his flood are examples from early Mesopotamia during bronze age.
If you took the time to look and research, you will find many if not most of these stories and myths from earlier human history when mankind was mainly polytheistic.
The most reasonable explanation for this ever evolving concept of a Divinities is that, it is MAN-MADE. Prove me wrong.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Secondly, If many of these stories can be tracked back as far as 7 millenniums before the existence of monotheism, you must accept that these stories have their origin in polytheism. If polytheism is not true for you, then these stories are a human invention, therefore, the stories of your Qur'an are regurgitations of these earlier myths and stories. Why would your God plagiarize myths of earlier human history?
This is not a mystery for me if I'm under the presupposition that theism is Man-made.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Did you read what I wrote. The stories did happen in reality Qur'an has other proofs to support the truth about it
Did you check the website?
It contains many of these proofs
It seems you are an atheist. Then don't focus on the stories focus on other aspects like the scientific facts. Try to think about those. Because Qur'an only contain 100% truth about the scientific facts and not a single verse against any scientific fact. This is the truth, check:
h t t p : / / w w w . quranmiracles . c o m
simpleOgre 2 years ago
I read what you wrote, but what you write is completely devoid of meaning when dealing with historical evidence. What are you trying to say when you say that "The Stories did happen in reality", when dealing with historical evidence that shows many of these stories occurred only in fictional accounts that describe merely the movement of celestial bodies in the sky. For instance, 12 apostles relates heavily to the movement of 12 celestial arrangements in our night sky. Not 12 humans.
Gwisss 2 years ago
A story over time will turn into a legend Less evidence you will have less sure you will be. That's one of the reason I don't believe how Christians believe in Jesus. We Muslims believe in the events and Jesus not because anyone told us. The other proofs that the book wasn't written by a man is good enough evidence that the other stories holds. Especially the scientific facts that we got the ensure us that the other stuff are true. There is not a single verse against scientific facts.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
You have some evidence that the might not happened. But they are not 100% proofs. There are many other reasons why the stories lost their evidences. But whatever the reason is it is not enough to conclude that they never happened. However you can verify the scientific facts written in Qur'an one by one. They are visual and physical miracles and evidences revealed 1400 years ago.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Again, this is often the case that a Muslim will argue for 'science' in the Qur'an. Which is to greatly ignore what the term 'science' means. Science does not deal in metaphors, however, if you are to suggest that there is science in the Qur'an. Can you be a surgeon or a neurologist by studying the Qur'an? Can you cure viral infections through the study of the Qur'an? Of course not. Vague metaphors are not proof of scientific knowledge. Does the Qur'an tells us about Venus and it's atmosphere?
Gwisss 2 years ago
Do they leave our the cure for HIV/AIDS or Cancer in the Qur'an? What is the cure for Cancer? Can you refer to me the metaphor that is suggestive of the known cure for cancer? Or does the Qur'an only offer vague metaphors for understandings that were already known at the time. Or Vague metaphors that have no relation to any recently discovered scientific understandings. You seem like someone more willing to believe in a conspiracy where no conspiracy exists.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Again, The Qur'an is not a book of science. I have no idea from where did you get that from my post.
Qur'an contains information to prove that the book wasn't written by a man 1400 years ago.
AND YES cure for HIV/AIDS is in Qur'an stop having sex outside the circle of marriage and the disease will disappear.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
"Qur'an contains information to prove that the book wasn't written by a man 1400 years ago."
How can the Qur'an contain scientific information but not be a book of science? What you mean to say is that the Qur'an can be metaphorically compared to current scientific understandings. Much like any document from ancient history with enough effort of course. Even the Ancient Greek concept of creation can be metaphorically compared to modern understandings.
Gwisss 2 years ago
If I want you to believe the book is from the Creator what kind of proofs do you need to believe that ?
For example revealed some information that only Almighty would have known 1400 years ago. Scientific facts are only one aspect of Qur'an there many others.
simpleOgre 2 years ago
Many scientific truths that the Qur'an claims HAD been known at that time, and it is difficult to believe that human may have known these scientific truths. However, the metaphorically vague comparison made between science and Qur'an can be interpreted both as valid and invalid. This is a main dilemma with vague metaphors.
Gwisss 2 years ago
Maybe some of them were general guesses but Qur'an only contain the true facts. It didn't include any non-scientific fact. If you study probability. You will know that for this to happen is a very very very very low chance. Also it contains facts like on cell level, on planet level, on universe level.
simpleOgre 2 years ago