@easyandy100, I refer you to the teachings of sun tzu - the art of war. You make your opponent think you are weak and disorganised. This remains the greatest manual of winning conflicts ever written. It is still studied today by warriors and hard headed business types all over the world.
I also do TKD in the UK under the T.A.G.B. I've often wondered if America's love for the sport side of TKD has ruined it reputation for self defense. I've no idea how much SD the WTF course includes but I guess that also varies from club to club. I get the impression most martial arts are/can be good for self defense, indeed from talking to people in other arts it seems a lot of the techniques cross over from one to the other. Its just a case of finding a good club and instructor.
Forms are forms, they are not fighting. TKD sparring alone with no other training will leave beginners vulnerable as they tend to discourage anything but perfect straight punches because only those get points. It is a great place to learn how to use your legs. It is not a great place to learn self defense, unless you already know some and want to enhance your kicking.
.....cross training sorted out my limitations and I left TKD, hungry for extra skills. I still have friends who teach it and are now 4th, 5th and 6th Degree. It's not crap, it's not useless, but it should extract itself a bit from up it's own backside perhaps, and it wouldn't have so many haters. No one is invincible and no one art is the perfect style, and anyone who is claiming to be teaching the ultimate in martial arts is either deluded or an out and out conman. Caveat Emptor
....As I mentioned earlier, there is too much rigidity in the style to adapt to the 21st century martial artist. Simplicity is the key. I don't think we did ANY low line kicking until I made red belt and I TOOK MY TIME TO GET THERE. The only place we did any full contact was at regional seminars and that was only because we were useful kickbags for the (soon to be TAGB) fighters who fought in FSK or open style comps.....
...(and by bullshit, I mean psuedo political 'style fascism') in their syllabus. I found the ITF style of TKD exciting and thoroughly enjoyable - yes that's the word - but as a serious all out combat sport designed to test the mettle of it's adepts? NO. As a martial art? NO. Not enough emphasis on REAL technique. Low block and counter punch, in walking stance with hip twist will get you nocked out pretty quickly. The higher up one goes that is when it starts to become interesting....
It was quite confusing. I began with the UKTA (ITF) in 1981. All the time we had 'Hip twist, hip twist' hammered into our skulls. Then it all changed to 'Sine wave, sine wave'. I don't think I ever really (nor did my natural movement) became enamoured with either 'technique'. I was however a natural fighter, so looking good wasn't really what I was hoping to achieve. I have trained in Muay Thai and Jeet kune Do and neither of those styles had as much bullshit.....
Everybody has an opinion and everybody is entitled to one, but please keep the scepticism to yourself. Whether it is for the admonition of others or just self-egotism, there really is no purpose for these comments.
@sk5williams if the poster didnt want skepticism they should post on a site where the whole world can see it and comment.The itf is a joke and I was in it for over 14 yrs,1985 until 1999.
@sk5williams its not that I say so,any rational person witha long history in either real life violence or fullcontact fighting who understands combat will tell you exactly the same.The techs and the training methods have absolutely no application in self defense even though the whole thing is supposed to be about that very area
@scarred10 In my experience of martial arts I've found it restraining to simply stop at the barrier rationality. Rationality tells us that it isn't because it isn't, that you can't because you can't. Not that I completely reject rationality, but in the past I've found it's strict accordance misguiding. I've known a friend to have regretfully left TKD to pursue Muay Thai, and I myself had fallen into boxing. So yes, I repeat- it's if "you" say so...
@sk5williams maybe you should use a dictionary.Rationality relies on proof and logic ,no just because anything.LEAVING TKD FOR BOXING/THAI IS A GREAT THING,both are infinitely more effective and challenging,i was doing boxing and thai while i did tkd,and the difference in my ability was so great,my tkd friends were amazed but still wouldnt accept the superiority of those methods in full contact ,they were in denial
@scarred10 Incorrect- rationality does not rely on proof... People rationalise things without any proof all the time... Logic? Yes, but in end it's still a form of judgement. "LEAVING TKD..." Yes, once a began boxing I wish I had started a long time ago, and I'm also looking forward to taking up kickboxing in the near future. But let me ask you, do you believe that disposing of all TKD methods is essential in doing this?
@sk5williams if it doest rely on proof its not rational even though they may be trying to rationalise something based on mistaken beliefs.Nope you can still use some of your kicking,flexibility and speed in real fighting but only once your boxing and defense are rock solid.I found in thai boxing that when you can bang hard and be comfortable with the hevy contact,that the odd spinning back kick/fist or axe kick can be a real surprise to fighters who rarely see it.
@scarred10 Thing is Thai and boxing are both sports and this is where it all gets confusing as TKD is a SD system that takes a long time to learn fully when Thai and boxing are far more immediate to learn. However, after five years plus training TKD will far outstrip the boxing or Thai in actual SD as TKD has leg/arm breaking techniques, strikes to vital points, gouging etc as well as grappling so it is more rounded for SD. If you think there is no SD application you are mistaken.
@Easyandy100 Any decent SD takes avery short time to learn and become competent,think months,not years.Thai and boxing take years because they ,are concerned not with self defense but match fighting but a decent practitioner can fight anywhere,anytime.TKD never reaches that point no matter how long you train.I did the official ITF TKD for 15 yrs and know every bit of the syllabus,it has no effective methods to practise the techs you mention,they re only in patterns.It has no grappling at all.
@scarred10 I did ITF TKD for seven years and found it very effective. There were take downs and holds, locks etc that I refer to as grappling. The 'sparring' is just the sporting side of it that most people confuse with the SD element.
@Easyandy100 grappling means you spar full contact using wrestling and submissions,thats the only way yo ever get good at using it in self defense or anywhere.You cant learn anything doing compliant self defense drills.Thats what im referring to when I say tkd has nothing to do with self defense.It adresses nothing of any relevance to a real situation,zero.
@scarred10 I understand what you are getting at but I recently spoke to a guy who said 'spar like you fight'; if we did that it wouldn't be sparring it would be fighting. If TKD SD were to spar like they fought there would broken bones and eye balls hanging out not to mention the possibliltiy of a few fatalities eg. you can't throw a full contact straight fingers to someones throat. It is impossible to recreate a real situation just approximations with drills/sparring. Where did you train?
@Easyandy100 Agreed. Sparring trains different elements than SD training. In my school when training self defense we would go hard enough for the attacker to relieve himself once he senses the technique was done correctly, but not so far as to seriously injure or maim the attacker. And we do this for the same reason that UFC has rules... in fact, UFC rules is a very good preview of what we would train for self defense in my ITF school. Therefore, true TKD is actually illegal in MMA.
@Easyandy100 About TKD and self defense. I think it depends where you train, i've seen clubs that avoid self defense and literally spar all the time and other clubs that not only teach you self defense but nice "tips" to go along with them. One which made me smile and I've seen used in a real life fight is holding your hands up palm outwards at the start of a confrontation and saying you dont want trouble and generally cowering then unleashing a palm strike to the opponents nose.
@Afterhourscaffeine I hear that the USA has a lot of McDojos under the guise of TKD so it has a bad rep. I was taught ITF TKD in the UK and graded a number of times by Master Rhee Ki Ha and it is great stuff for SD. ITF TKD is constantly changing and improving techniques or eliminating them altogether if they don't work. Everybody I know that changed to other styles or went down boxing or MT route now wishes they had stayed with TKD including me!
Sine wave was developed to make people flock to an art that didn't exist in quantities yet.
Sine wave: you virtually increase your gravitational effect giving you more virtual mass. This increased virtual ***momentary*** mass gives you power equal to an individual with more mass than you. The more you weigh the harder you hit. Everything sounds wonderful, a new creative idea to milk power for shrimps from South Asia.
It is like scarred10 says, Sine wave is not useful. Period.
either way thank you. if you ever find your self browsing. take a look into some of the things I mentioned. In wing chun they speak of the shovel method. If you look deeper into Mike Tyson his peek a boo. He's actually using methods out of wing chun. I just seen the concept of chi being held and released by opening and closing of the the center line . I'm gonna find out how it works. Take care. enjoy your weekend.
@DisBoiRytehere there is no such thing as chi and tyson nor his coach ever even heard of that or wing chun.Peekaboo style was used by floyd patterson who ws also trained by tysons coach 30 yrs earlier.He never heard of wing chun either.
@scarred10 How the did they not know what wing chun is but yet Muhammad Ali knew Jhoon Rhee??? Bruce Lee was the biggest fucking thing is that time. And as Floyd Patterson go know he was not the creator of the peek a boo. Floyd Patterson used a hunch stance. Mike Tyson hunched but in a butterfly guard. On top of that the rhythm he used was a tic toc side to side. He Patterson more so bobbed and weave. The tic toc is also known as a dip.
@DisBoiRytehere jhoon rhee was very high profile tkd master but had nothing to show a pro boxer.People knew bruce through movies ,they wouldnt have a clue what wing chun was and bruce had een dropped that for jkd by then anyway.
@scarred10 He's guard was nothing like Floyds. Tyson used a variation of the impact guard that covered his center line. You can say what you think is right , but when Mike would throw his jab and crosses from the inside. Shifting his feet and body weight in a wing chun shuffle. Next your gonna tell me the philly shell was not influenced by kali. You are hard headed. Do you study science. Or just spectate?No such thing as chi?
@DisBoiRytehere me lad,the philly shell evolved through boxing sparring,nobody in boxing at that time even knew what kali or wing chun are,most still wouldnt.Because 2 things might look similar doesnt mean they evolved from each other,they may be independantly evolved.Chi has nothing to do with science,virtually no scientists believe in it .
@scarred10 Are you serious? Chi is the flow of body mechanics, you lack concept of rhythm, flow, foot work and punching mechanics?Everyone knows punching from the hips telegraphs.Proper punches are when foot.knee and shoulder are in alignment and moves as one.(chi) U are a fraud. U don't like sign wave because u lack rhythm so it makes simple techniques difficult. I study fighters to a science because I fight. U read concepts but can't preform. I seen ur type before.Are you white?
@DisBoiRytehere chi has zero to do with body mechanics ,its an imaginary energy that supposedly flows through meridians that dont exist either.If the foot and knee move then the hip must rotate as does the shoulders to deliver the punch.You dont punch from the hip,its foot,knee,hip, shoulder and then arm in that order,I think you are imagining hip twist as being different than I do.Its impossible to use sine wave in a fight or match
@scarred10 i don't even care. I've trained with pro's and Olympic Fighters.My uncles and grandfather use knee in t.k.d. Half my family from Korea and the other half from Michigan. I know how sine wave works because I have rhythm. Your not a artist , you can't execute with precision because you lack rhythm and confidence. So u just gave up. I'd tell u saying but u wouldn't get it. Funny how the t.k.d. guys that have rhythm can apply the art and guys like you just go through the movement.
@DisBoiRytehere sine wave has nothing to do with rhythm,nobody can execute sine wave in a real or even sparring situation.Tkd guys cant apply the art because they never fight in real matches except for very few and they never use sine wave.
@scarred10 I'm done with you.I'm aware of his trainer and both Mike and Floyds style. If you can't see the evolution between of the two then your stupid. You be suprise what people pick up in 30 years. So on that note I'm done talking to you.
By the way , for any one that doesn't understand the motion. When dropping the weight down on your back foot make sure to pivot your and snap out your punch. If you see the general stance , he's not stretched out like the other guy on the video is. Pivot your rear foot so the toes point at target. Make sure to pivot as the weight is dropping back and slightly pull lead foot back. If that don't work for you step forwards pushing of your rear foot.
So I've read the comments left on the sign wave. Well its actually a effective movement. Its a way to change levels and move in angles effectively. Its also a way to control your flow , like sudden stops. I understand what people mean by torque your body to strike for power but its not all ways the best use. You telegraph your punches and can be countered , the same power you exert out can be used against you. Look at boxer who dedicated to much power they became thrown off balance.
@DisBoiRytehere its called a sine wave,not a sign wave.Its a useless movement no matter how good you are at it.It has nothing to do with moving at angles,its meant to increase potential energy by rising and dropping mass.Torquing is natural and best,it doesnt telegraph,I dont think you understand fighting and biomechanics.If there was a better way of punching,every boxer in the world would be using it.
@scarred10 actually my friend thanks for your comment. However in boxing we do not torque punches. They are snapped. You'd be surprised by how many do use this method in boxing. Its the same motion as when you shuffle forwards Its the same motion as throwing a jab and across , and variety of other combinations. A lot of t.k.d. fighters "torque punches" because they don't understand that punches are thrown then pushed. And yes buddy , a lot of martial artist in t.k.d. do telegraph punches.
@DisBoiRytehere all straight punches are snapped but the power comes from trunk rotation in boxing,karate ,every sport and martial art except Itf tkd .
@scarred10 your incorrect in your statement. I agree with some punches but a right cross does not gain its power from turning your hip.You can , so don't misunderstand what I am saying. A correct right cross is whipped/flick from a push and pivot off your rear leg but that with the a back and forth rhythm. It looks like its torque if the jab leads. But that due to stepping in on the lead foot. I don't like t.k.d. but i found something useful. Don't say its all bad , Jhoon Rhee trained Ali.
@DisBoiRytehere all punches generate power via hip rotation,with the sometime exception of a jab.The cross has no power without the hip/torso twist,the push off the back leg starts the twist,no cross is ever flicked ,a jab is flicked.Jhoon never trained ali,that was a photo opportunity taken from them exchanging ideas ,nobody except a pro boxer/coach would have anything to offer ali,least of all a tkd lad who was never in a full contact fight in his life.Rhee never taught sine wave.
@scarred10 Also I wouldn't agree with it not be useful for angles. When you rise up you can shift your weight and land your rear foot in other areas. Creating new angles of striking. in every video I seen the general explain using high and low , its called dropping levels. Instructors suck at teaching so student are lead to believe its some bullshit.
@DisBoiRytehere gen choi was a shotokan black belt with no grade in anything else,and some taekyon training as a child,he was given a honorary chungdo kwan black belt.He had no business leading any martial art.Sine wave is more than dropping levels,its dropping,rising and then dropping again,that can never be effective in any situation.Instructors are teaching what he has in his books which is bullshit anyway.
@DisBoiRytehere lad,give me a break,the sine wave is crap and everybody knows it,including many in the itf.Its only there to make it different to karate which choi hates since koreans hate japan due to the occupation.They banned all korean martial arts so its natural enough that hed want to wipe out all karate influences.
@scarred10 Disagree.Sine wave shoot in and out and combinations.Mike Tyson ,Roy Jones,James Tony,Archie Moore use it. In this application he stayed in range. The right made a good stiff arm , try a upper cut. WinChung vertical /strait punch with the mechanics of a boxer right cross. Look it up, you'll like what u find out. People been k.o. by less power.Bruce Lees 1" punch had less moves.
@DisBoiRytehere no man ,you dont understand combat sports,there is no sine wave found anywhere but itf tkd and nobody anywhere can use it while sparring/fighting.You seem to think that simple bobbing and weaving is sine wave,it isnt.Its obvious to anyone that choi didnt understand combat nor biomechanicsas applied to it.I spent 13 years doing itf tkd and have been to seminars with choi and all the senior masters.I began in 1984/85.
@scarred10 How i put this to you. Know i was not comparing it to bobbing and weaving. There's multiple rhythm in boxing alone. A gallop is the same in movement.Levels stay changing as you pursue your opponent. i don't care how long you been doing t.k.d. my understanding of combat sports is greater then you assume. I had grandfathers and uncles do this. Learned while they served for the R.O.K When I said muay thai and savate together I was speaking on hard and soft styles. Balance.
@DisBoiRytehere its hard to understand since your english is poor,.LAD,I was training tkd since before you were born and boxing not long after.Youd have to have better english to argue properly on this issue
@scarred10 T.k.d. once was like Savate with Mauy Thai. Now its a joke.I had Thai Box and Bando b4. Got beat up.In Thai my punches n bando suckd. Beat to punches ,kicks blocked, i push kick like a snap kick."Bad Idea!' Point is,bad technique off set everything.My Coach trained world class fighter,served in Nam wit Tiger Unit those guys banged. He tell now its a circus act with magic tricks.The hokey pokey.
I've never understood sine wave. I've been doing MA for almost 30 years, starting with TKD in the '80's. How is this guy getting any extra power when he's moving his body weight away form his opponent? The General is pushing him up towards his oponent and he drops his weight down and punches as he moving away from his target, makes no sense to me. Not being said with any disrespect.
@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
@djmarkyno1 13 yrs ,10 as a black belt with the ITF.Its fundamental movement in ITF,not just a pattern.Why would anyone practise something that cannot be used that exact way?You cannot spend all your time doing sine wave and then go out and punch like a boxer,like what everybody does(tries to do as most are useless)
wow Hon. Gen. Choi Hong Hi used to be a living legend........sigh.......... too bad he died. If he is alive right now i bet he can teach more about TAEKWONDO
I'm a novice TKD, however, I think that it's physically impossible not to rotate hips-slightly-when using sine wave. It seems to me to be an automatic physical function of the body. Am I wrong?
I cant believe how some people look at this video and say "Sign wave is useless" If the CREATOR Of TKD says its important than im sure it is! Yes sign wave isn't practical when sparring or fighting but we still use little bits of it everyday. Its how we walk, Just try to walk without up going down, up, down now thats unnatural i have been TKD for 10 years
when a person breaks a board any person whether it be a person who knows martial art or not what do they generally do oh they put on the wall with one end on the floor and kick downward by pushing their body weight into the board now do you know why they do this it is to allow gravity to work with them not against them the sine wave is the same principal only beacuse the target is higher u must raise yourself higher in order to come down they have proven that this does generate more power
As a practitioner of taijiquan I think it's important to drop the weight (ever so) slightly when striking. So I agree with this sense of the "sine wave". In my opinion it increases kinetic energy and grounds my strike. However, I find it mandatory to use the hips when striking and avoid "bouncing" at all cost. Every time someone comes up from a bounce, I have an opportunity to uproot them. I will never give that opportunity to my opponent. What are your thoughts?
Hmm I believe in order to understand this technique u need to study some wushu basic theory. :) Believe me this move is really basic but difficult to execute correctly. Some may say it has a hidden meaning.
Drop your wieght while using a fist as well as twist and the strike will hurt a lot more, but then you need to be taught in depth to understand its use in practice.
Then to use a kick in the similar way, well practice is needed
I personally use hip twist to generate power and I'm not a taekwondo expert but I do practice other martial arts. I think the whole point of this is maybe more a training exercises used to help someone feel more grounded while they punch. Boxers sometimes drop their weight into their punches too.
Studied TKD for many years using hip twist, also trained ITF, dont really understand how the sine wave would produce power, looks like your body moves backwards whilst punching which would reduce impact
The sine wave only makes you feel like you're hitting harder because you jerk your body doing it. Physics wise, force doesn't travel horizontally like that since you are just moving vertically. Twisting is much better since your force is aimed horizontally. I've done tkd for 12 years btw.
@InfiniteRagnarok Agreed, I've been doing TKD for 15 years and the sine wave cannot add power to a punch. It's simple physics, mass times acceleration equals force. Kinetic linking and body shifting are the only ways to increase power.
@Gottschalk1990 patterns or forms contain the techniques of a system. Every movement has an application from the simplest block to the the most complex technique, there seems little point teaching a technique that is completely different from it's intended application. Patterns are supposed to teach technique, balance and body shifting as well.
@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
@InfiniteRagnarok@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
@InfiniteRagnarok@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. white belt noob.
@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
@djmarkyno1 anyone with any understanding of combat and biomechanics knows more than gen choi,the man was clueless,he was a shotokan black belt and changed some bits of that to create an even greater bunch of horseshit
Have either of you ever trained with the Sine Wave? I have been training ITF TKD for a long time. I began when there was no Sine Wave and began again many years later after the introduction of it. I can say from personal experience that techniques executed with _proper_ Sine Wave incorporate hip motion and are very much more powerful than hip twist alone. I believe _that_ is what General Choi had in mind.
if you dont twist you cant transfer momentum into the shot effectively,not to mention that torso twist is used in every sport where objects are thrown or struck because its basic movement pattern.The sine wave is completely unnatural and unuseable and a complete waste of training time.I reckon he just put it in to make the itf unique,doesnt make any other sense
@billysue2 In physics force is equal to mass times acceleration. If you differentiate acceleration you get "jerk" which is what actually damages things. By moving in a sine wave, you transfer more jerk into the thing you collide with. The sine wave does have a purpose.
@TheOptimusprime9 even if it was more powerful,(which it isnt since the velocity at impact along with effective mass is whats important,more jerk doest mean more impact velocity) its ipossible to use in any real situation in sport or self protection.
@scarred10 Jerk doesn't represent the force of impact, it merely represents how much of that impacted translates to damage rather than reactionary force and push. Also, velocity at time of impact is necessarily what is important. Remember f=ma, the deceleration caused by the impact will be the most important factor. So much for that. Now, if you're going to argue about whether or not it is practical, all techniques are impractical until mastered in real life scenarios.
@TheOptimusprime9 it cannot be used by anyone ,anywhere,if youve practised the sine wave for 13 yrs or more like I did and also fought kickboxing ,thai and boxing youd see that youd never have the time opportunity to go down ,up and back down again to block or strike anything,its entirely ridiculous.Its impossible to practise real situations as it would involve getting into fights weekly for years,do that and youd be dead/prison in todays society
@scarred10 I'm willing to concede that the sine wave is mostly a training technique, but that doesn't make it useless. If you don't want to use it that's fine. I just wanted to point out that the math checks out.
@TheOptimusprime9 the tech doesnt check out biomechanically,transferring weight through spinal rotation is the most powerful way to punch or throw anything(throwing and object and punching are the same action)
@scarred10 The jerk doesn't increase the effective force of the impact i know. We've established that. When you move in a sine wave you transfer the change in acceleration into your opponent instead of sharing it with him. Hence more damage, not more force or "power" as you put it.
@TheOptimusprime9 if it doesnt increase impact force it doesnt effect damage,the only other thing that would is reducing striking surface which would give more force per area.The sine wave is faulty biomechics and completely useless practically.Just goes to show choi had no business leading any martial art,like the majority of masters.
@scarred10 You don't understand the point of sine wave. When you have impact damage, it can cause damage to both objects in the collision. When one object moves in a sign wave the jerk it experiences is significantly reduced by being transferred into the other object. It isn't about more force, it's about how to use force more effectively by putting the "shock" caused by acceleration change into your opponent instead of your fist or foot.
@TheOptimusprime9 theres no biomechanical advantage to sine wave and the point was to make it different to other tkd groups.Impact damage to the attacking tool is determined by whether your joints are aligned to absorb force and if the tool is hard obust enough not whether there is more or less jerk.I guarantee that virtually no tkd master even knows what the term jerk means ,never mind be the reason its used.The above video proves that choi was clueless,the body is moving bckward at impact.
@scarred10 But that's what I'm saying, you don't want your own body to absorb so much of the force, you want it to you into your opponent. Striking with sine waves teaches you to strike at right moment. Think of it like the end of a whip, it move in a sine wave, and at the end the period on the down motion when the tip connects with its target it will split the flesh. This is what happens from jerk transfer, the shock shakes the target apart. Respectfully, I disagree that sine wave is useless.
@TheOptimusprime9 lad you are grasping at straws,im absolutely sure nobody in tkd knows what jerk is,its a concept you wont hear outside engineering .Either way it cannot increase the energy applied to the target,its the person performing the punch that experiences more jerk ,not the recipient.You must see that it has no application whatever the biomechanical issue.
@scarred10 Just because concept of jerk isn't well known tkd practitioners doesn't mean it doesn't play a role in the mechanics of striking. I am a student of engineering this is true, but i feel that much of what I learn can be applied to combat. How does the person performing the punch experience more jerk if that person is moving in a sine wave? That doesn't make much sense...
@TheOptimusprime9 if gen choi didnt know what jerk was ,how could he develope sine wave for that reason.Anyway ,jerk is experienced by both parties in theory but the puncher who does the sine wave experience the greater change in acceleration.The receiver experiences a force determined by the speed and mass of the attacker,velocity on impact is what matters ,not the rate of change in acceleration
@scarred10 Well first of all, Gen. Choi didn't "develop" the sine wave idea, he merely adopted it. You don't always have to understand the mathematical arguments behind kinetics in order to know if something is effective. Maybe Choi didn't understand engineering, but I think that you don't really understand jerk yourself if you think that objects that move in a sine wave experience more jerk than those that don't.
@TheOptimusprime9 he developed the application of it for martial arts movements.He neither understood the physics nor the ineffectiveness of it,the man never took part in anything resembling a real combatative art,he became the leader of tkd solely because of his military influence.Whatever the application of jerk in the sinewave,it does not increase either the energy transferred or the damage done.
@scarred10 I agree that the vertical momentum of the sine wave does not drastically improve horizontal punching or kicking power. I do believe however that Choi did in fact know the ins and outs of his karate-made-taekwondo. I can't say that he was very involved in the art as far as far as practicing it. He was mostly motivated to "create" a martial art with the name. I believe it is apparent that he had little understanding of physics, as he adopted rubbish ideas such as the sinewave
@kidcornchip amen.He understood every little movement in tkd,becuase he made those little movements to make it different to karate,not for any useful reason.He understood basic physics,not complex biomechanics,but even if he did ,he would have ignored it in order to make tkd unique.What he had no understanding of is combat.
@scarred10 i'd like to put some input in your conversation. Would you mine taking a look at my taking at my post on the general. As a child i practiced w.t.f. and thought it was pointless. But watching i.t.f. the movements make more sense.
@andromalius2002 thats the grade id be now if I hadnt gotten out of tkd 13 yrs ago for kickboxing and grappling.I began in 1984,several of my old contemporaries are 6th and 7th degrees now.Id tell it to anyone ,all the tkd guys I know are aware of my opinion,they just dont share it or cant share it in public because of their high position and students that look up to them.At a very early stage I knew tkd was poor but just liked the social aspect and sparring,many cant see that.
@easyandy100, I refer you to the teachings of sun tzu - the art of war. You make your opponent think you are weak and disorganised. This remains the greatest manual of winning conflicts ever written. It is still studied today by warriors and hard headed business types all over the world.
Luke42G 1 week ago
I also do TKD in the UK under the T.A.G.B. I've often wondered if America's love for the sport side of TKD has ruined it reputation for self defense. I've no idea how much SD the WTF course includes but I guess that also varies from club to club. I get the impression most martial arts are/can be good for self defense, indeed from talking to people in other arts it seems a lot of the techniques cross over from one to the other. Its just a case of finding a good club and instructor.
Afterhourscaffeine 1 week ago
Forms are forms, they are not fighting. TKD sparring alone with no other training will leave beginners vulnerable as they tend to discourage anything but perfect straight punches because only those get points. It is a great place to learn how to use your legs. It is not a great place to learn self defense, unless you already know some and want to enhance your kicking.
Calimantalkin 4 weeks ago
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Thank You! 감사합니다! ❤،.•*✿♫*•.❤✿ PEACE IN KOREA ♥•*´Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ*´♥ ❤
Asiana96 1 month ago
LOVE ITF BUT DONT LIKE SINE WAVE SORRY!!!
Dobbersky 2 months ago
forms do NOT equal sparring techniques in TKD.
Webarton 2 months ago
.....cross training sorted out my limitations and I left TKD, hungry for extra skills. I still have friends who teach it and are now 4th, 5th and 6th Degree. It's not crap, it's not useless, but it should extract itself a bit from up it's own backside perhaps, and it wouldn't have so many haters. No one is invincible and no one art is the perfect style, and anyone who is claiming to be teaching the ultimate in martial arts is either deluded or an out and out conman. Caveat Emptor
La77a 2 months ago
@La77a Thank you for your experience and comments. Best regards.
RicardoKooh 2 months ago
....As I mentioned earlier, there is too much rigidity in the style to adapt to the 21st century martial artist. Simplicity is the key. I don't think we did ANY low line kicking until I made red belt and I TOOK MY TIME TO GET THERE. The only place we did any full contact was at regional seminars and that was only because we were useful kickbags for the (soon to be TAGB) fighters who fought in FSK or open style comps.....
La77a 2 months ago
...(and by bullshit, I mean psuedo political 'style fascism') in their syllabus. I found the ITF style of TKD exciting and thoroughly enjoyable - yes that's the word - but as a serious all out combat sport designed to test the mettle of it's adepts? NO. As a martial art? NO. Not enough emphasis on REAL technique. Low block and counter punch, in walking stance with hip twist will get you nocked out pretty quickly. The higher up one goes that is when it starts to become interesting....
La77a 2 months ago
It was quite confusing. I began with the UKTA (ITF) in 1981. All the time we had 'Hip twist, hip twist' hammered into our skulls. Then it all changed to 'Sine wave, sine wave'. I don't think I ever really (nor did my natural movement) became enamoured with either 'technique'. I was however a natural fighter, so looking good wasn't really what I was hoping to achieve. I have trained in Muay Thai and Jeet kune Do and neither of those styles had as much bullshit.....
La77a 2 months ago
Everybody has an opinion and everybody is entitled to one, but please keep the scepticism to yourself. Whether it is for the admonition of others or just self-egotism, there really is no purpose for these comments.
Thank you for the video. Taekwon.
sk5williams 2 months ago
@sk5williams if the poster didnt want skepticism they should post on a site where the whole world can see it and comment.The itf is a joke and I was in it for over 14 yrs,1985 until 1999.
scarred10 1 month ago
@scarred10 Well only if you say so, right?
sk5williams 1 month ago
@sk5williams its not that I say so,any rational person witha long history in either real life violence or fullcontact fighting who understands combat will tell you exactly the same.The techs and the training methods have absolutely no application in self defense even though the whole thing is supposed to be about that very area
scarred10 1 month ago
@scarred10 In my experience of martial arts I've found it restraining to simply stop at the barrier rationality. Rationality tells us that it isn't because it isn't, that you can't because you can't. Not that I completely reject rationality, but in the past I've found it's strict accordance misguiding. I've known a friend to have regretfully left TKD to pursue Muay Thai, and I myself had fallen into boxing. So yes, I repeat- it's if "you" say so...
sk5williams 1 month ago
@sk5williams maybe you should use a dictionary.Rationality relies on proof and logic ,no just because anything.LEAVING TKD FOR BOXING/THAI IS A GREAT THING,both are infinitely more effective and challenging,i was doing boxing and thai while i did tkd,and the difference in my ability was so great,my tkd friends were amazed but still wouldnt accept the superiority of those methods in full contact ,they were in denial
scarred10 1 month ago
@scarred10 Incorrect- rationality does not rely on proof... People rationalise things without any proof all the time... Logic? Yes, but in end it's still a form of judgement. "LEAVING TKD..." Yes, once a began boxing I wish I had started a long time ago, and I'm also looking forward to taking up kickboxing in the near future. But let me ask you, do you believe that disposing of all TKD methods is essential in doing this?
sk5williams 1 month ago
@sk5williams if it doest rely on proof its not rational even though they may be trying to rationalise something based on mistaken beliefs.Nope you can still use some of your kicking,flexibility and speed in real fighting but only once your boxing and defense are rock solid.I found in thai boxing that when you can bang hard and be comfortable with the hevy contact,that the odd spinning back kick/fist or axe kick can be a real surprise to fighters who rarely see it.
scarred10 1 month ago
@scarred10 Thing is Thai and boxing are both sports and this is where it all gets confusing as TKD is a SD system that takes a long time to learn fully when Thai and boxing are far more immediate to learn. However, after five years plus training TKD will far outstrip the boxing or Thai in actual SD as TKD has leg/arm breaking techniques, strikes to vital points, gouging etc as well as grappling so it is more rounded for SD. If you think there is no SD application you are mistaken.
Easyandy100 4 weeks ago
@Easyandy100 Any decent SD takes avery short time to learn and become competent,think months,not years.Thai and boxing take years because they ,are concerned not with self defense but match fighting but a decent practitioner can fight anywhere,anytime.TKD never reaches that point no matter how long you train.I did the official ITF TKD for 15 yrs and know every bit of the syllabus,it has no effective methods to practise the techs you mention,they re only in patterns.It has no grappling at all.
scarred10 4 weeks ago
@scarred10 I did ITF TKD for seven years and found it very effective. There were take downs and holds, locks etc that I refer to as grappling. The 'sparring' is just the sporting side of it that most people confuse with the SD element.
Easyandy100 4 weeks ago
@Easyandy100 grappling means you spar full contact using wrestling and submissions,thats the only way yo ever get good at using it in self defense or anywhere.You cant learn anything doing compliant self defense drills.Thats what im referring to when I say tkd has nothing to do with self defense.It adresses nothing of any relevance to a real situation,zero.
scarred10 4 weeks ago
@scarred10 I understand what you are getting at but I recently spoke to a guy who said 'spar like you fight'; if we did that it wouldn't be sparring it would be fighting. If TKD SD were to spar like they fought there would broken bones and eye balls hanging out not to mention the possibliltiy of a few fatalities eg. you can't throw a full contact straight fingers to someones throat. It is impossible to recreate a real situation just approximations with drills/sparring. Where did you train?
Easyandy100 4 weeks ago
@Easyandy100 Agreed. Sparring trains different elements than SD training. In my school when training self defense we would go hard enough for the attacker to relieve himself once he senses the technique was done correctly, but not so far as to seriously injure or maim the attacker. And we do this for the same reason that UFC has rules... in fact, UFC rules is a very good preview of what we would train for self defense in my ITF school. Therefore, true TKD is actually illegal in MMA.
LucPFT 3 weeks ago
@LucPFT Cheers. I don't know why some people can't understand that SD is so very, very different from sparring.
Easyandy100 3 weeks ago
@Easyandy100 Probably because they've never experienced the difference between the two.
LucPFT 3 weeks ago
@Easyandy100 About TKD and self defense. I think it depends where you train, i've seen clubs that avoid self defense and literally spar all the time and other clubs that not only teach you self defense but nice "tips" to go along with them. One which made me smile and I've seen used in a real life fight is holding your hands up palm outwards at the start of a confrontation and saying you dont want trouble and generally cowering then unleashing a palm strike to the opponents nose.
Afterhourscaffeine 1 week ago
@Afterhourscaffeine I hear that the USA has a lot of McDojos under the guise of TKD so it has a bad rep. I was taught ITF TKD in the UK and graded a number of times by Master Rhee Ki Ha and it is great stuff for SD. ITF TKD is constantly changing and improving techniques or eliminating them altogether if they don't work. Everybody I know that changed to other styles or went down boxing or MT route now wishes they had stayed with TKD including me!
Easyandy100 1 week ago
Sine wave was developed to make people flock to an art that didn't exist in quantities yet.
Sine wave: you virtually increase your gravitational effect giving you more virtual mass. This increased virtual ***momentary*** mass gives you power equal to an individual with more mass than you. The more you weigh the harder you hit. Everything sounds wonderful, a new creative idea to milk power for shrimps from South Asia.
It is like scarred10 says, Sine wave is not useful. Period.
kidcornchip 3 months ago
@kidcornchip but i thought boxers used weight transfer in all their punches, is boxing useless too? I disagree with you i'm afraid.
caribbeanpriceclub 2 months ago
either way thank you. if you ever find your self browsing. take a look into some of the things I mentioned. In wing chun they speak of the shovel method. If you look deeper into Mike Tyson his peek a boo. He's actually using methods out of wing chun. I just seen the concept of chi being held and released by opening and closing of the the center line . I'm gonna find out how it works. Take care. enjoy your weekend.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere there is no such thing as chi and tyson nor his coach ever even heard of that or wing chun.Peekaboo style was used by floyd patterson who ws also trained by tysons coach 30 yrs earlier.He never heard of wing chun either.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 How the did they not know what wing chun is but yet Muhammad Ali knew Jhoon Rhee??? Bruce Lee was the biggest fucking thing is that time. And as Floyd Patterson go know he was not the creator of the peek a boo. Floyd Patterson used a hunch stance. Mike Tyson hunched but in a butterfly guard. On top of that the rhythm he used was a tic toc side to side. He Patterson more so bobbed and weave. The tic toc is also known as a dip.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere jhoon rhee was very high profile tkd master but had nothing to show a pro boxer.People knew bruce through movies ,they wouldnt have a clue what wing chun was and bruce had een dropped that for jkd by then anyway.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 He's guard was nothing like Floyds. Tyson used a variation of the impact guard that covered his center line. You can say what you think is right , but when Mike would throw his jab and crosses from the inside. Shifting his feet and body weight in a wing chun shuffle. Next your gonna tell me the philly shell was not influenced by kali. You are hard headed. Do you study science. Or just spectate?No such thing as chi?
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere me lad,the philly shell evolved through boxing sparring,nobody in boxing at that time even knew what kali or wing chun are,most still wouldnt.Because 2 things might look similar doesnt mean they evolved from each other,they may be independantly evolved.Chi has nothing to do with science,virtually no scientists believe in it .
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 Are you serious? Chi is the flow of body mechanics, you lack concept of rhythm, flow, foot work and punching mechanics?Everyone knows punching from the hips telegraphs.Proper punches are when foot.knee and shoulder are in alignment and moves as one.(chi) U are a fraud. U don't like sign wave because u lack rhythm so it makes simple techniques difficult. I study fighters to a science because I fight. U read concepts but can't preform. I seen ur type before.Are you white?
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere chi has zero to do with body mechanics ,its an imaginary energy that supposedly flows through meridians that dont exist either.If the foot and knee move then the hip must rotate as does the shoulders to deliver the punch.You dont punch from the hip,its foot,knee,hip, shoulder and then arm in that order,I think you are imagining hip twist as being different than I do.Its impossible to use sine wave in a fight or match
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 i don't even care. I've trained with pro's and Olympic Fighters.My uncles and grandfather use knee in t.k.d. Half my family from Korea and the other half from Michigan. I know how sine wave works because I have rhythm. Your not a artist , you can't execute with precision because you lack rhythm and confidence. So u just gave up. I'd tell u saying but u wouldn't get it. Funny how the t.k.d. guys that have rhythm can apply the art and guys like you just go through the movement.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere sine wave has nothing to do with rhythm,nobody can execute sine wave in a real or even sparring situation.Tkd guys cant apply the art because they never fight in real matches except for very few and they never use sine wave.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 I'm done with you.I'm aware of his trainer and both Mike and Floyds style. If you can't see the evolution between of the two then your stupid. You be suprise what people pick up in 30 years. So on that note I'm done talking to you.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
By the way , for any one that doesn't understand the motion. When dropping the weight down on your back foot make sure to pivot your and snap out your punch. If you see the general stance , he's not stretched out like the other guy on the video is. Pivot your rear foot so the toes point at target. Make sure to pivot as the weight is dropping back and slightly pull lead foot back. If that don't work for you step forwards pushing of your rear foot.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
So I've read the comments left on the sign wave. Well its actually a effective movement. Its a way to change levels and move in angles effectively. Its also a way to control your flow , like sudden stops. I understand what people mean by torque your body to strike for power but its not all ways the best use. You telegraph your punches and can be countered , the same power you exert out can be used against you. Look at boxer who dedicated to much power they became thrown off balance.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere its called a sine wave,not a sign wave.Its a useless movement no matter how good you are at it.It has nothing to do with moving at angles,its meant to increase potential energy by rising and dropping mass.Torquing is natural and best,it doesnt telegraph,I dont think you understand fighting and biomechanics.If there was a better way of punching,every boxer in the world would be using it.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 actually my friend thanks for your comment. However in boxing we do not torque punches. They are snapped. You'd be surprised by how many do use this method in boxing. Its the same motion as when you shuffle forwards Its the same motion as throwing a jab and across , and variety of other combinations. A lot of t.k.d. fighters "torque punches" because they don't understand that punches are thrown then pushed. And yes buddy , a lot of martial artist in t.k.d. do telegraph punches.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere all straight punches are snapped but the power comes from trunk rotation in boxing,karate ,every sport and martial art except Itf tkd .
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 your incorrect in your statement. I agree with some punches but a right cross does not gain its power from turning your hip.You can , so don't misunderstand what I am saying. A correct right cross is whipped/flick from a push and pivot off your rear leg but that with the a back and forth rhythm. It looks like its torque if the jab leads. But that due to stepping in on the lead foot. I don't like t.k.d. but i found something useful. Don't say its all bad , Jhoon Rhee trained Ali.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere all punches generate power via hip rotation,with the sometime exception of a jab.The cross has no power without the hip/torso twist,the push off the back leg starts the twist,no cross is ever flicked ,a jab is flicked.Jhoon never trained ali,that was a photo opportunity taken from them exchanging ideas ,nobody except a pro boxer/coach would have anything to offer ali,least of all a tkd lad who was never in a full contact fight in his life.Rhee never taught sine wave.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 Also I wouldn't agree with it not be useful for angles. When you rise up you can shift your weight and land your rear foot in other areas. Creating new angles of striking. in every video I seen the general explain using high and low , its called dropping levels. Instructors suck at teaching so student are lead to believe its some bullshit.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere gen choi was a shotokan black belt with no grade in anything else,and some taekyon training as a child,he was given a honorary chungdo kwan black belt.He had no business leading any martial art.Sine wave is more than dropping levels,its dropping,rising and then dropping again,that can never be effective in any situation.Instructors are teaching what he has in his books which is bullshit anyway.
scarred10 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere lad,give me a break,the sine wave is crap and everybody knows it,including many in the itf.Its only there to make it different to karate which choi hates since koreans hate japan due to the occupation.They banned all korean martial arts so its natural enough that hed want to wipe out all karate influences.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 Disagree.Sine wave shoot in and out and combinations.Mike Tyson ,Roy Jones,James Tony,Archie Moore use it. In this application he stayed in range. The right made a good stiff arm , try a upper cut. WinChung vertical /strait punch with the mechanics of a boxer right cross. Look it up, you'll like what u find out. People been k.o. by less power.Bruce Lees 1" punch had less moves.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere no man ,you dont understand combat sports,there is no sine wave found anywhere but itf tkd and nobody anywhere can use it while sparring/fighting.You seem to think that simple bobbing and weaving is sine wave,it isnt.Its obvious to anyone that choi didnt understand combat nor biomechanicsas applied to it.I spent 13 years doing itf tkd and have been to seminars with choi and all the senior masters.I began in 1984/85.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 How i put this to you. Know i was not comparing it to bobbing and weaving. There's multiple rhythm in boxing alone. A gallop is the same in movement.Levels stay changing as you pursue your opponent. i don't care how long you been doing t.k.d. my understanding of combat sports is greater then you assume. I had grandfathers and uncles do this. Learned while they served for the R.O.K When I said muay thai and savate together I was speaking on hard and soft styles. Balance.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere its hard to understand since your english is poor,.LAD,I was training tkd since before you were born and boxing not long after.Youd have to have better english to argue properly on this issue
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 T.k.d. once was like Savate with Mauy Thai. Now its a joke.I had Thai Box and Bando b4. Got beat up.In Thai my punches n bando suckd. Beat to punches ,kicks blocked, i push kick like a snap kick."Bad Idea!' Point is,bad technique off set everything.My Coach trained world class fighter,served in Nam wit Tiger Unit those guys banged. He tell now its a circus act with magic tricks.The hokey pokey.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@DisBoiRytehere it was never like muay thai because they never sparred full contact with gloves nor allowed the clinch,knees and elbows.
scarred10 4 months ago
I've never understood sine wave. I've been doing MA for almost 30 years, starting with TKD in the '80's. How is this guy getting any extra power when he's moving his body weight away form his opponent? The General is pushing him up towards his oponent and he drops his weight down and punches as he moving away from his target, makes no sense to me. Not being said with any disrespect.
Oldschooldan1 4 months ago
fuck !!! General Choi mother fuker
826kmilo 4 months ago
@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
djmarkyno1 5 months ago
@djmarkyno1 13 yrs ,10 as a black belt with the ITF.Its fundamental movement in ITF,not just a pattern.Why would anyone practise something that cannot be used that exact way?You cannot spend all your time doing sine wave and then go out and punch like a boxer,like what everybody does(tries to do as most are useless)
scarred10 4 months ago
wow Hon. Gen. Choi Hong Hi used to be a living legend........sigh.......... too bad he died. If he is alive right now i bet he can teach more about TAEKWONDO
ngayonnaba 6 months ago
useless
voodooalchemy 8 months ago
I'm a novice TKD, however, I think that it's physically impossible not to rotate hips-slightly-when using sine wave. It seems to me to be an automatic physical function of the body. Am I wrong?
alevanpa1 8 months ago
@alevanpa1 yes u are as alot of tkd is buiulding memory muscle so that everything come natural otherwise everything would be easy.
666TheJammo 6 months ago
I cant believe how some people look at this video and say "Sign wave is useless" If the CREATOR Of TKD says its important than im sure it is! Yes sign wave isn't practical when sparring or fighting but we still use little bits of it everyday. Its how we walk, Just try to walk without up going down, up, down now thats unnatural i have been TKD for 10 years
PenguinLegace 10 months ago
lol sine wave is just for show, never gonna hit someone with sine wave
spearofdestinyfanboy 11 months ago
this doesn't matter in real life...
enduggy 11 months ago
when a person breaks a board any person whether it be a person who knows martial art or not what do they generally do oh they put on the wall with one end on the floor and kick downward by pushing their body weight into the board now do you know why they do this it is to allow gravity to work with them not against them the sine wave is the same principal only beacuse the target is higher u must raise yourself higher in order to come down they have proven that this does generate more power
warrlic2 1 year ago
@warrlic2
As a practitioner of taijiquan I think it's important to drop the weight (ever so) slightly when striking. So I agree with this sense of the "sine wave". In my opinion it increases kinetic energy and grounds my strike. However, I find it mandatory to use the hips when striking and avoid "bouncing" at all cost. Every time someone comes up from a bounce, I have an opportunity to uproot them. I will never give that opportunity to my opponent. What are your thoughts?
Respectfully
syphen888 11 months ago
pone en youtube "video de ingles a christmas ghost" la primera
ivangalli1 1 year ago
Hmm I believe in order to understand this technique u need to study some wushu basic theory. :) Believe me this move is really basic but difficult to execute correctly. Some may say it has a hidden meaning.
TheBournazovlaxos 1 year ago
Drop your wieght while using a fist as well as twist and the strike will hurt a lot more, but then you need to be taught in depth to understand its use in practice.
Then to use a kick in the similar way, well practice is needed
jmctkd2008 1 year ago
I personally use hip twist to generate power and I'm not a taekwondo expert but I do practice other martial arts. I think the whole point of this is maybe more a training exercises used to help someone feel more grounded while they punch. Boxers sometimes drop their weight into their punches too.
kickerwithkick2 1 year ago
Studied TKD for many years using hip twist, also trained ITF, dont really understand how the sine wave would produce power, looks like your body moves backwards whilst punching which would reduce impact
TheG1NGAN1NJA 1 year ago 3
The sine wave only makes you feel like you're hitting harder because you jerk your body doing it. Physics wise, force doesn't travel horizontally like that since you are just moving vertically. Twisting is much better since your force is aimed horizontally. I've done tkd for 12 years btw.
InfiniteRagnarok 1 year ago 17
@InfiniteRagnarok Agreed, I've been doing TKD for 15 years and the sine wave cannot add power to a punch. It's simple physics, mass times acceleration equals force. Kinetic linking and body shifting are the only ways to increase power.
colstreamer 1 year ago
@colstreamer i think its just for the pattern not actual fighting
Gottschalk1990 1 year ago
@Gottschalk1990 patterns or forms contain the techniques of a system. Every movement has an application from the simplest block to the the most complex technique, there seems little point teaching a technique that is completely different from it's intended application. Patterns are supposed to teach technique, balance and body shifting as well.
colstreamer 1 year ago
@InfiniteRagnarok uv done it for 12 years, general choi - founder of taekwon-do... who knows best?
djmarkyno1 5 months ago
@djmarkyno1 Physics has been around for much longer than general choi, who knows best science or one person.
InfiniteRagnarok 5 months ago
@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
djmarkyno1 5 months ago
@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
djmarkyno1 5 months ago
@InfiniteRagnarok @InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
djmarkyno1 5 months ago
@InfiniteRagnarok @InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. white belt noob.
djmarkyno1 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
djmarkyno1 5 months ago
@InfiniteRagnarok u say uv done tkd for 12 years? lol did u practise wtf or some shit lmfao. u should know that as part of a pattern this only shows the asthetics of a move and not how u would punch in a real situation. if u actually practise any real form tkd u would know that. fukin white belt noob.
djmarkyno1 5 months ago
@djmarkyno1 anyone with any understanding of combat and biomechanics knows more than gen choi,the man was clueless,he was a shotokan black belt and changed some bits of that to create an even greater bunch of horseshit
scarred10 4 months ago
un material indispensable para cualquier practicante de taekwondo ,gracias .
marevecol 1 year ago
Have either of you ever trained with the Sine Wave? I have been training ITF TKD for a long time. I began when there was no Sine Wave and began again many years later after the introduction of it. I can say from personal experience that techniques executed with _proper_ Sine Wave incorporate hip motion and are very much more powerful than hip twist alone. I believe _that_ is what General Choi had in mind.
ziggyvox 1 year ago
if you dont twist you cant transfer momentum into the shot effectively,not to mention that torso twist is used in every sport where objects are thrown or struck because its basic movement pattern.The sine wave is completely unnatural and unuseable and a complete waste of training time.I reckon he just put it in to make the itf unique,doesnt make any other sense
billysue2 2 years ago 8
It's the only conclusion that makes sense to me too :-(.
TonesterD 2 years ago
@billysue2 In physics force is equal to mass times acceleration. If you differentiate acceleration you get "jerk" which is what actually damages things. By moving in a sine wave, you transfer more jerk into the thing you collide with. The sine wave does have a purpose.
TheOptimusprime9 6 months ago
@TheOptimusprime9 even if it was more powerful,(which it isnt since the velocity at impact along with effective mass is whats important,more jerk doest mean more impact velocity) its ipossible to use in any real situation in sport or self protection.
scarred10 6 months ago
@scarred10 Jerk doesn't represent the force of impact, it merely represents how much of that impacted translates to damage rather than reactionary force and push. Also, velocity at time of impact is necessarily what is important. Remember f=ma, the deceleration caused by the impact will be the most important factor. So much for that. Now, if you're going to argue about whether or not it is practical, all techniques are impractical until mastered in real life scenarios.
TheOptimusprime9 6 months ago
@TheOptimusprime9 it cannot be used by anyone ,anywhere,if youve practised the sine wave for 13 yrs or more like I did and also fought kickboxing ,thai and boxing youd see that youd never have the time opportunity to go down ,up and back down again to block or strike anything,its entirely ridiculous.Its impossible to practise real situations as it would involve getting into fights weekly for years,do that and youd be dead/prison in todays society
scarred10 6 months ago
@scarred10 I'm willing to concede that the sine wave is mostly a training technique, but that doesn't make it useless. If you don't want to use it that's fine. I just wanted to point out that the math checks out.
TheOptimusprime9 6 months ago
@TheOptimusprime9 the tech doesnt check out biomechanically,transferring weight through spinal rotation is the most powerful way to punch or throw anything(throwing and object and punching are the same action)
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 The jerk doesn't increase the effective force of the impact i know. We've established that. When you move in a sine wave you transfer the change in acceleration into your opponent instead of sharing it with him. Hence more damage, not more force or "power" as you put it.
TheOptimusprime9 4 months ago
@TheOptimusprime9 if it doesnt increase impact force it doesnt effect damage,the only other thing that would is reducing striking surface which would give more force per area.The sine wave is faulty biomechics and completely useless practically.Just goes to show choi had no business leading any martial art,like the majority of masters.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 You don't understand the point of sine wave. When you have impact damage, it can cause damage to both objects in the collision. When one object moves in a sign wave the jerk it experiences is significantly reduced by being transferred into the other object. It isn't about more force, it's about how to use force more effectively by putting the "shock" caused by acceleration change into your opponent instead of your fist or foot.
TheOptimusprime9 4 months ago
@TheOptimusprime9 theres no biomechanical advantage to sine wave and the point was to make it different to other tkd groups.Impact damage to the attacking tool is determined by whether your joints are aligned to absorb force and if the tool is hard obust enough not whether there is more or less jerk.I guarantee that virtually no tkd master even knows what the term jerk means ,never mind be the reason its used.The above video proves that choi was clueless,the body is moving bckward at impact.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 But that's what I'm saying, you don't want your own body to absorb so much of the force, you want it to you into your opponent. Striking with sine waves teaches you to strike at right moment. Think of it like the end of a whip, it move in a sine wave, and at the end the period on the down motion when the tip connects with its target it will split the flesh. This is what happens from jerk transfer, the shock shakes the target apart. Respectfully, I disagree that sine wave is useless.
TheOptimusprime9 4 months ago
@TheOptimusprime9 lad you are grasping at straws,im absolutely sure nobody in tkd knows what jerk is,its a concept you wont hear outside engineering .Either way it cannot increase the energy applied to the target,its the person performing the punch that experiences more jerk ,not the recipient.You must see that it has no application whatever the biomechanical issue.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 Just because concept of jerk isn't well known tkd practitioners doesn't mean it doesn't play a role in the mechanics of striking. I am a student of engineering this is true, but i feel that much of what I learn can be applied to combat. How does the person performing the punch experience more jerk if that person is moving in a sine wave? That doesn't make much sense...
TheOptimusprime9 4 months ago
@TheOptimusprime9 if gen choi didnt know what jerk was ,how could he develope sine wave for that reason.Anyway ,jerk is experienced by both parties in theory but the puncher who does the sine wave experience the greater change in acceleration.The receiver experiences a force determined by the speed and mass of the attacker,velocity on impact is what matters ,not the rate of change in acceleration
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 Well first of all, Gen. Choi didn't "develop" the sine wave idea, he merely adopted it. You don't always have to understand the mathematical arguments behind kinetics in order to know if something is effective. Maybe Choi didn't understand engineering, but I think that you don't really understand jerk yourself if you think that objects that move in a sine wave experience more jerk than those that don't.
TheOptimusprime9 4 months ago
@TheOptimusprime9 he developed the application of it for martial arts movements.He neither understood the physics nor the ineffectiveness of it,the man never took part in anything resembling a real combatative art,he became the leader of tkd solely because of his military influence.Whatever the application of jerk in the sinewave,it does not increase either the energy transferred or the damage done.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 Again, respectfully, I disagree that the sine wave is useless in regards to damage. But we can agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
TheOptimusprime9 4 months ago
@scarred10 I agree that the vertical momentum of the sine wave does not drastically improve horizontal punching or kicking power. I do believe however that Choi did in fact know the ins and outs of his karate-made-taekwondo. I can't say that he was very involved in the art as far as far as practicing it. He was mostly motivated to "create" a martial art with the name. I believe it is apparent that he had little understanding of physics, as he adopted rubbish ideas such as the sinewave
kidcornchip 4 months ago
@kidcornchip amen.He understood every little movement in tkd,becuase he made those little movements to make it different to karate,not for any useful reason.He understood basic physics,not complex biomechanics,but even if he did ,he would have ignored it in order to make tkd unique.What he had no understanding of is combat.
scarred10 4 months ago
@scarred10 i'd like to put some input in your conversation. Would you mine taking a look at my taking at my post on the general. As a child i practiced w.t.f. and thought it was pointless. But watching i.t.f. the movements make more sense.
DisBoiRytehere 4 months ago
@scarred10 *is not necessarily
TheOptimusprime9 6 months ago
@billysue2 tell that to my teacher a 7thdegree master
andromalius2002 4 months ago
@andromalius2002 thats the grade id be now if I hadnt gotten out of tkd 13 yrs ago for kickboxing and grappling.I began in 1984,several of my old contemporaries are 6th and 7th degrees now.Id tell it to anyone ,all the tkd guys I know are aware of my opinion,they just dont share it or cant share it in public because of their high position and students that look up to them.At a very early stage I knew tkd was poor but just liked the social aspect and sparring,many cant see that.
scarred10 4 months ago