Free Will

[tak351]

lmao i thought this video was called "Free Wii" no joke o,o but after i watched it :] ahah taught me a deep lesson xD thank u sir ^^ ur finger picking tutorial helped me also !

[occultsocialist]

How do YOU define free will?

[dndn1011]

which ever way I choose too ;)

[TheExtremist777]

This makes so much sense. I'm glad I found this video, now I don't have to go make one of the same sort haha!

Thanks for posting :).

[dndn1011]

you are very welcome!

[26nov46]

Continuation.

To me, it is obvious that personal responsibility has shifted to causes outside the individual; causes which are often blamed for practically everything. In so doing, people get stripped of their dignity as subjects of their destinies. I personally believe they must be given back their protagonism by socially conditioning their 'choices', and making them comply, (therefore, a change in the principles of Western education is urgent.

[dndn1011]

Western education is based on the idea that children can be programmed like machines. The problem is that they are not machines. The result is that in order to train in this way, fear is used. This fear has a destructive effect, making people more concerned with their image and social acceptance than the truth. So I agree, a change is required. Education should place at is highest priority the encourgaement of creativity and free thought. From this all else will flow freely.

[26nov46]

Though I agree that educational policies or politicians believe students are like machines, every teacher has always known they are not. You must be joking if you think that education in the Western world is ruled by fear nowadays. Perhaps teachers are!. Creativity is fine, but apprenticeship in practically every field demands discipline, and that is a prerequisite for creative excellence, (I know,I am a painter). I believe this stage in education fosters freedom rather than stifles it.

[dndn1011]

I agree that discipline is important and is not stressed enough; however the primary effect of schooling appears to be (in my opinion) fear of being an individual and getting rejected by the social structure. In England at least, most schools develop a heirarchy among students where the most undisciplined, wreckless and troublesome children are at the top. This is perverse. Many children throw away their education in favor of fitting in.

[26nov46]

That is far from being a disease in England; We call it Western Education.

The desire to fit in in the peer group, which has always existed, has taken a turn for the worse. Selling strategies (fictional free choice)in a sophisticaded market system encourages groups to identify under labels (all supposedly equally valid!)

Lack of hierarchy in social values inexorably leads to a hierarchy ruled by brute force and lazyness.

[dndn1011]

The only thing I do not agree with you on is the free will bit. What many think of as use of free will is not. When we make use of our free will we are able to rise above the external pressures that are placed on us. Too many children think they are rebelling when in fact they are playing into a system that wants to keep them from growing as individuals. Western Education disempowers and removes individuality, leaving people to search for happiness soley in external things.

[26nov46]

As a matter of fact, I agree with you in that we are talking about different things.

When I talk about 'free will' I do it from a philosophical standpoint. I do not agree there are as many reasons for and against, the weight of evidence plays against 'free will', (begging for a definition). Calculated conditioning has little chance of success, "not machines"; however, appealing to people's basic instincts, often works; that is apparently the comfortable, modern way out.

[dndn1011]

Yes there are two issues: one is how to live our lives, for which just saying to people "you don't have free will" is either 1) Harmless because there is no free will and we can't choose what to say or do, or 2) Very damaging because if there is free will it will disempower people. Whether free will actually exists is not that relevant. It does not change anything practically. However on the philosophical point you are forgetting what Godel's theorem proves. It is a proof. It proves....

[dndn1011]

that formal systems that behave deterministically (not predictably, people get confused, they mean different things) cannot be both complete and accurate. They can not explain nor simulate everything. This suggests the need for something external to the 'machine'. I believe free will is very much part of the external influences on the machine that make the universe more than a machine and ultimately is the thing that creates conciousness.

[26nov46]

So as not to repeat myself,or giving references,I am going to finish this interesting discussion. It all comes down to say that free will is the way our emotional and rational self actually works, (which practically amounts to agreeing with me), only that we do not know enough about the way it does it, yet.

About the other aspects of the discussión, I see your point and I think you're absolutely right.

A pleasure.

[dndn1011]

If you put it that way can only agree with you.

[dndn1011]

Thanks for the interesting discussion too.

[26nov46]

I see that this is mostly a solipsist exercise. Either the question is free will and/or determinism, (whatever these two words mean to each of you), or social convinience.

Two different matters, though; However I think this question has led us astray and has little to do with the original discussion. See more below.

[dndn1011]

My argument is simply that it is more useful to believe in free will than not... because if you believe you can effect your destiny this is more empowering. The philosophical debate on free will per se will run on forever.

[26nov46]

I believe we are conditioned to think we make a 'choice' even though there is no proof of that, (in fact there is more evidence to the contrary, genetic make up, social environment, etc). Dindn1011 does not care one way or another, but he would rather believe he has free will because it is useful. I agree with that position; in order to go on living (cheerfully, at least) man must deny or ignore the evidence all along.

[dndn1011]

Actually the arguments are more complex on the subject of whether there is free will or not; it is not clear cut onwe way of the other. I would say that in order to give ourselves power, we must assume we have some influence in our own desitiny. This is very important, especially when looking at trying to heal the world. If we believe that we have no free will when in fact we do and then let the world die as a result, it is far worse than foolishly believing in a free will that does not exist

[dndn1011]

So on balance I argue we must have faith in our abilities to mold our future.

[26nov46]

There is no reason "to let the world die" as a result of thinking there is no free will. As lazymornings has argued, a combination of character, (beliefs and determination) and inquisitive knowledge, (scientific and philosophical)will "give ourselves power" and widen the range of our so called "choices".

[malfattimusic]

by the way another video i enjoyed a lot!!

[malfattimusic]

dino what if we are chemically driven to make certain choices....like someone who hates broccoli....its a choice whether they eat it or not, but is it a choice whether they will enjoy eating it? so can i assume the choice to not eat broccoli is actually your body already having chemically made the choice, and maybe other choices are guided chemically but not obviously???....is that dumb?...lol

[dndn1011]

No it is a great question. I look at it like this: everything in the physical world, including your body, your experiences and your memories, are the "cards you are dealt" in every moment you live. Our brains can make decisions on a kind of auto-pilot, but the conscious part of us can overcome programming. You can decide to eat brocolli even if you hate it, even if only to attempt to show to yourself that you do have free will ;)

[malfattimusic]

i guess....can we choose to ENJOY the broccoli? is a better question....

[dndn1011]

Yes, of course! As long we ae are prepared to pay the price ;)

Actually I love broccoli, but that's not important hehe.

[b1heqh54]

The logic on which decisions are based is ultimately ruled by a belief system which has been accepted as truth. To develop free will requires that you first establish a firm belief system on which to act. First you must BELIEVE. If you believe that you have no choice, then please email me and I will provide direction for your decisions and resulting actions. I have a paypal account that I at times admittedly feel subject to. (please forgive the dangling preposition; I made a choice again)

[gandersource]

Reading through the sentence, the dangling participle came into view. :) I'm the person who defiantly splits infinitives on purpose. :)

[b1heqh54]

I dare to boldy go... ;)

[dndn1011]

It is the only way to go! :D

[gandersource]

Very nicely explained. My position on free will is similar to yours. I think I understand where determinists are coming from, though. It's a bit like cause and effect, and people's common notions of natural orders, etc., - they seem to think it's something (or things) attributable to the world(s) they inhabit, whereas I tend to think those things are more a function(s) of the human understanding - in other words, ways of making sense of our world(s).

[dndn1011]

Exactly. I would add that science is also a way of making sense of our world. What is often forgotten is that science is only a belief system. It does not hold any absolute truth because it cannot explain everything. And it has been proven that formalisations never will (Godel's theorem).

Formalism and sprituality are the two main forces of the universe. Left brain, right brain. Head and heart. Logic and emotion.

There will be peace on earth when they co-exist in harmony.

[gandersource]

Yes, it's like (they think) modern science is the paradigm to end all paradigms, or the one by which all others can be judged. That's why I think philosophy benefits from a soupçon of anthropology. Plus, when I studied philosophy of science, it was much more sociological than the models one typically hears in pubs and on YouTube. :)

[lazymornings]

I believe that sometimes people get stuck in one place/time/situation they may not have the tools to help themselfs, BUT if we take others out of the place/time/situation they are in, We help them begin again.

You are also correct, the system does not give free will, it tells people what they opinion is and then only asks to make sure it's programmed you correctly,People need to question everything, most of all, the symbols,signs,uniforms,laws and social norms, they have so much 'faith' in.

[lazymornings]

I think free will, though it seems free is made up of learnt 'bits' from the past and our will is limited by what we know....or believe,so though it's free it is bound by 'brains', so the more we learn and progress the more 'free will' we have.

However, if we choose to believe, is abuse of free will, Only if, it leads to negative things, so someone is theist/atheist it doesn't matter so long as the out come is good for you.

positive actions cause positive outcomes 75% of the time, I feel.