Greg Boyd - Thoughts on Eternal Punishment, Part 1

[ShadowSpring2]

They take to their itching ears what they want to hear: that they are more special than anyone else, and that their works of fundamentalists doctrine and all the wars they fight on behalf of their dogma are going to be rewarded by God. Part of that reward for them is,in their minds, is the eternal torment of everyone who did not play along. Yes, they hear what they want to hear. what pats their egos and gives them power.

[ShadowSpring2]

Fundamentalists want to believe in hell because they hate the world that Jesus loves. In their pride and arrogance they want to believe that they are chosen and precious, while the rest of the world is....not.

[kargelr]

This perspective is far more rational than a "just" God torturing someone eternally for 70 years worth of bad choices. No matter how bad those choices are, eternity by definition outweighs them all, making the God who subjects people to eternal damnation unjust.

[TheVildee]

Who is this guy? I just got a message from a user named "gregboyds" (don't know if he has anything to do with him), and it said "Fuck Norway, may all norwegians burn in hell". This is probably not from him but from some idiot that used his name I suppose...

[whatthehellbook]

God's love & mercy either endures forever or it doesn't. He cannot punish people for all of eternity and have grace & mercy endure forever. One has to be true and one has to be a lie. Since the Scriptures say over and over again that it endures forever, I believe it lasts forever. God will judge fairly, how He sees fit. The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. He tells us to love our enemies. Will He turn around and eternally torment His? Love never fails.

whatthehellbook . com

[jaydeeangelo]

@whatthehellbook Jesus has already taken our punishment. "But this man (Jesus), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever (His own life), sat down on the right hand of God." Heb. 10:12 That is why he will not send us to Hell. It is the self/I/ego that is the chaff that burns. "I/self/ego am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by the Faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

[jaydeeangelo]

Respond to this video... This video is a perversion of the gospel because it is coming from the self not the Spirit. The self is the chaff that burns. The self is the enemy that wars against the spirit that is cast into the Lake of Fire. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, that we are crucified with Christ and no longer live but Christ lives in us. Deny Self. Self has been crucified, killed with Christ, that Christ is now resurrected in human vessels. That is the gospel

[ShadowSpring2]

Hacker, would you post such scriptures? I have heard the same assertions from the pulpit and mindlessly repeated them myself, but when I started going through them all, they don't actually claim "eternal" damnation or separation, they talk about the intensity of that painful separation. Why is hope included as an eternal quality with faith and love if it is really all over when your physical body dies? Nothing eternal about that...

[whatthehellbook]

@ShadowSpring2 Good post

[HackerzInc]

well its obvious that his doesn't believe in Jesus and his words, because Jesus spoke more about ETERNAL FIRE/HELL more than heaven.and for someone to disregards Christ teaches, his just created a God of his own and put aside the God of scripture.God is just and must punish sin,Heaven is eternal and therefore hell is eternal.

[whatthehellbook]

@HackerzInc That's not true. Jesus spoke of age-during punishment. He never spoke of eternal torture.

[N2truth7]

@whatthehellbook No, actually it is true however the word used in the bible is "torment" and according to Revelation that is where the beast and the false prophet (a man) are thrown forever and ever. In fact, according to my lexicon that means forever.

[HackerzInc]

@whatthehellbook what bible are you reading.

[whatthehellbook]

@HackerzInc Read the Young's Literal Translation. It translates the literal word the writers used. biblegateway . com has it for free to read online.

[HackerzInc]

@whatthehellbook so all the other hundreds of translations are wrong? na i dont think so.

check out Mark 14:21

The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.

If hell isn't eternal why is it that a man's very existence is threatened?? SEE that verse alone shatters your whole non eternal hell doctrine.

you people really dont understand what it means to be a holy God.

[whatthehellbook]

@HackerzInc No, there are many translation that correctly translate words. You can stick with the modern translation if you like but I'd rather read what the writers literally wrote instead of a modern interpretation of what scholars think they meant to say. Research it my friend.

[N2truth7]

@whatthehellbook I like how you just skirted on by his referernce to Judas without any commentary. My question is, what makes Young's translation better? Who says that it's more accurate? Why would a individual, self taught, so-called expert who translated a bible by himself be more reputable than the teams of scholars who have translated the scriptures?

[N2truth7]

@HackerzInc You're right man. Young's is highly speculative at best. The thing is that when you ask them for the reasons why it's a "better" translation there is no educated reason why. The simple fact is that they like it because it serves their agenda.

[HackerzInc]

@N2truth7 exactly, they like what tickles their ears.

[HackerzInc]

@whatthehellbook

Mark9:43

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched

Mark9:44

where ‘ Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.

Matt 25:46

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

2Thes1:9

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His powr

[whatthehellbook]

@HackerzInc Everlasting is not the word that Mark used. He wrote age-during.

[whatthehellbook]

God's love & mercy either endures forever or it doesn't. He cannot punish people for all of eternity and have grace & mercy endure forever. One has to be true and one has to be a lie. Since the Scriptures say over and over again that it endures forever, I believe it lasts forever. God will judge fairly, how He sees fit. The Bible does not teach eternal punishment.

whatthehellbook . com

[oldno74]

For one, this parable is not about Hell, it's about Hades. AND, it's not about Heaven, it's about Paradise or Abraham's Bosom. And this guy is educated???? Before Christ was resurrected no one went to Heaven. Jesus hadn't gone to prepare it yet, he was still on the earth when he said this parable, duh!

[gretanojoke]

excellent response to Boyd and his open theology at Bible.org just type in boyd and open theism

[baladprata]

@gretanojoke

Brother, I false teacher is the one who denies Jesus as a savior and the one who takes our sins away!

I haven´t seen him denying Jesus what I have seen him doing is defending his convictions with passion, by the way is relevant.

Brother there aren´t any group in Christianity that lives "the way", the word of God, purely.

[jmhaze2006]

many atheists are athiests because they can't believe a loving God would let people burn forever. I agree. In the Bible, it seems Greg BOYD IS correct here> also< read the very last chapter in malachi

[grenadeschool]

Heresy alert!! You think you're more compassionate than God is? The people that have rejected Christ will end up in eternal damnation. He is a holy God. Get on your knees and repent. For the path is narrow and the gate is too. His wrath will be bestowed on those who have not been washed in his blood. Don't twist the Word of God to suit your needs. He is I Am. If you don't like it feel free to follow this teaching to hell.

[Axiomission]

@grenadeschool

That's not going to win anyone over, buddy.

[11donian]

@grenadeschool Ahh yes, the Christ like response dripping with love and compassion.

[gretanojoke]

well, icemario87, i'm not surprised....but greg body is a false teacher

[monstrolon]

@gretanojoke

why does Greg Boyd is a false teacher?

[Icemario87]

I'm a former Christian, an atheist, and I love this video. Faved.

[SShanez]

I love these doctrines about "The Wicked" (imortal?, nonexistent) but in some places it says no humans are better than others, all were made wicked by adam, and there was a second adam.

[LoveJesusNotReligion]

Religion is hell

The Old Covenant was Hell

Just my thoughts...

[Drooblemeister]

Just to add another note to Greg's video, the idea of immortality of the soul, that is that the wicked will be immortal (but in a state of unending suffering and torment) seems to be rooted more in pagan thought than in the biblical worldview. I agree w/ Greg that immortality belongs to the righteous, not the wicked and I think Scripture agrees w/ this view to. Either way, we need to keep doing what Jesus asked us to do and to make disciples until he returns!

[totheword3000]

@astrophysicist40 you away i plead with you come back to the faith

[totheword3000]

@astrophysicist40 but hell is not eternal its a even when the wicked after being judged receive their punishment in full even Satan himself and then fall as ash before the feet of the righteous and then die cease to exist their gone forever that is the eternal punishment for sin death and the worse condemnation is ether your remembered by those who are redeemed as horrible are your death is worse then the others God exist and he is God of love and justice don't let the lie of eternal hell push

[rkg62976]

I cannot read the Bible in any other way than to see that the lake of fire will completely and utterly destroy the wicked (ie., Annihilate them). Yes, the saints will witness this destruction. But after the fire has done its work God shall wipe away our tears...no more death, sorrow, crying, pain...(Rev.21:4).

*btw, I am a Reformed (Calvinist) Christian; not an Open Theist, and certainly not liberal in my theological thought.

[trace433]

I would love for Greg Boyd to study covenant eschatology... I love everything I've heard him say thus far, and would like for him to discover that the "end times" were the "last days" of the Old Covenant era, not planet earth, which endures forever. (Eccl 1:4, Eph 3:21, Psa 78:69, Psa 104:5.) The 'traditional' lens we look through today obscures a lot about judgment, eternity, hell, etc. Covenant Eschatology honors, untangles and clarifies Bible prophecy using consistent Biblical hermeneutics.

[Drooblemeister]

I like Greg's teaching on hell, I want to believe it, I really do!  But I just want to see more Scriptural evidence to support it.. It makes sense with what I know about God's nature and character..

[jmhaze2006]

@Drooblemeister The last chapter in Malachi, says the wicked will be destroyed ROOT AND BRANCH, if that is true, seems, nothing would be left, that is in the Bible.  The everlasting fire, my understanding, means only God can put it out. NOT that the wicked will burn forever, but rather, be eternally seperated from God.

[tainorebelde1]

@jmhaze2006 --You are reading into the text what you WANT TO BELIEVE. You are confusing anagogical language by applying a literal sense to it. How come you don't say anything about "GROWING FAT LIKE STALL-FED CALVES?" I mean, are you now going to believe that God-sanctioned gluttony is taught in Malachi 4? Or how about Jesus...does he have ACTUAL WINGS?

[twentysixpigs]

But it's very strange that Boyd hasn't understood the most basic tenet of *freewill*. However much God loves people (and he does more than we could ever imagine), he will not violate their free will. To think that love is able to force someone to choose someone away from their chosen path is to misunderstand love itself. It is the horrible truth that people

[twentysixpigs]

I fully agree with Boyd on his amazement at Tertulian and Acquinas' statements - there is certainly no joy in seeing anyone suffer. When Jesus finally says 'depart from me, I never knew you.' he will do so with a heart-breaking agony. God's rescue ship has already been sent - but he cannot force people to get on board.

[Skavar4000]

Correction: I did mean denominations below, not religions.

[tainorebelde1]

Wow! This guy is so wrong in so many levels....you need to WRITE A THESIS just to answer these 10 minutes of rubbish.

This video attests to "Maverick Christianity." He's making questions and answering- expressing all sorts of PREMISES and falsely held pre-conceived notions without actually DEBATING.

In other words- this preacher is his ULTIMATE INTERPRETER.

[Skavar4000]

@tainorebelde1 Wow... then he is just like the other 33,000 christian religions that have existed, who each have had their own "interpretation" of the bible.

But this guy has it all wrong? 

Sure. Uh huh...

[tainorebelde1]

@Skavar4000 --Wow! First of all...get an education- Second, there aren't 33,000 Christian "religions." There are many Christian DENOMINATIONS... and most agree on the basic principles.

So even though you don't have a clue what the difference is between "religion" and "denomination" is... we're supposed to take anything you say "seriously?"

Sure....Uh huh......

[jmhaze2006]

@tainorebelde1 Read the last chapter of Malachi. Seems it can't be clearer. I could not believe in a God that would allow those that rejected him to burn forever. Hades, and hell, is death. One needs to look deeper into the original words and scriptures. I think Satan has used the misinterpretation of eternal punishment (conscious) To turn people away from Go.

[tainorebelde1]

@jmhaze2006 You read the "last chapter of Malachi..." And? All you did was EISEGESIS on the passage- confusing anagogical and metaphorical language for literal. All the while....the PLETHORA of literal passages that I have quoted in the past you simply skip through, like a stone skipping over water.

Whatever...

[hoffabrando]

GOOD VIEDO, HELPING US TO THINK.

WELL DONE.

[hoffabrando]

Has any one escaped from hell (hades) and say’s he has the power OVER IT.?

If so, is it burning, ? was he alive in hell,?or was it just a place of death.?

Re:1:18: I am he that liveth, and WAS DEAD; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

[hoffabrando]

John 3:13), ‘Nobody has gone to heaven other than he who came from heaven, ’ So Abraham hadn’t been resurrected yet.

Can the soul die?

"Behold, all souls are Mine, as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Eze. 18:4.

What is said of the soul of Christ?

"Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong; because He hath poured out His soul unto death." Isa. 53:12.

part 1

[hoffabrando]

What becomes of the soul at death?

"What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?" Ps. 89:48.

Where did Christ's soul go at His death?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell [hades], neither His flesh did see corruption." Acts 2:31.NOTE. - His soul went into the grave, but was not left there, He being raised on the third day.

part 1

[ThisIsMySockAccount]

@hoffabrando Christ is not a mortal. WE ARE mortal. He does not, will not, can not die a second death. We most certainly can, and many of us will.

[hoffabrando]

@ThisIsMySockAccount

THE GRAVE is the1st death, christ died, He being raised on the third day.

the second death is the lake of fire. were death and hell are cast into,

Re:20:14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

can God dye ? can God be tempted,? was the son of God tempted,? did he die,?

WHO was Jesus,?

M'r:5:7: Jesus, thou Son of the most high God.

Heb:5:8: Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.

[ThisIsMySockAccount]

@hoffabrando ummm ... I said He will not die the "SECOND DEATH". So are you agreeing with me, or correcting me? I really can't tell, because you're saying the same thing I am.

[hoffabrando]

@ThisIsMySockAccount

agreeing.

Re:1:18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

[ChristianNewsWatch]

The story is spiritual about Old Covenant Israel being in agony because the kingdom / presence of God was taken away from them.... the key to understanding starts with the "rich man" (spiritually rich), said FATHER Abraham... he was known as the father of the Old Covenant Jews.... not non-jews.

The mainstream church is so deceived... not much of what it teaches is truth.

[AaronM144000]

If God is infinitely loving and infinitely loves that what is good then it is a corollary of infinately hating that which is evil. Sorry friend I am an Open Theist but I think Boyd is going way off and is putting himself in a dangerous position if he underestimates hell and its horrors. I pray Boyd comes to this realisation.

[caucazhin]

@AaronM144000 @AaronM144000 I think your right. Im not an open theist but GB is really very in depth in many ways but he seems way off base in many others. People should really put their skull caps on and dig deep in their bible when listening 2 him.

He seems to be humanizing the bible to his own liking more & more

..................PEACE ! ! !

[sdanie01]

@AaronM144000

To use the formula "God must infinitely hate evil" (which is true) to prove that the damned should stay in Hell forever precludes that the damned are not sinners, but sin itself. Yes, God must infinitely hate evil, but NOT infinitely hate His children who were taken captive by evil.

[mapliopl]

Hey astro,

Greg is actually pointing out the opposite view, that God is NOT a person who says, "You either love me or I'll kill ya." In fact, God is so loving that he's not even going to impose a punishment, because there are intrinsic consequences of not following His way.

That means if I decide to be a murderer, and never change, that destroyed way of life will lead to my death, intrinsically, but if I ask God to change me, I'm now being transformed into loving a person, his way is the life.

[guitarzero]

I have compassion for all life but how could I have it for what is trying to kill me.

[germanninja101]

He does not willingly bring affliction or grief upon us but he willingly created us knowing all that is...

[MorePreciousThan]

Did you listen to the sermon? Greg is questioning and arguing that the traditional view of hell (eternal torment) is not in fact biblical.

[MorePreciousThan]

My above reply is meant for Astrophysicist40, he appears to be criticizing the video as if it is supporting the traditional view.

[llamafarmingguru]

I almost entirely agree, the teaching on eternal torment is always something that I found absurd and monsterous and I feel that way about many other "traditional" aspects of Christianity such as homosexuality and attitudes to women. I see this through histroy as mans use of religion to control and strike fear into people. Gregs teaching is so good because its clear and intellectual and shows that Jesus himself niether possesed or taught any of these monsterous things.