DOJIME judo body triangle or scissors

[matperry65]

Judo guys always bitch about Bjj players it's because judo guys are inferior to Bjj players that's why

[chchjudoschool]

@matperry65

It possibly not understanding a confusing area about spine locks in the rules, when we have dojime banned in judo for supposedly good reasons, while BJJ allow this application, with a choke, where I am sure pressure to the spine is independent of the issue of whether or not a spine lock is going on, and significant damage could be done. These are real reasons to legitimately question a rule set,

I know you are stirring but I am explaining a logic from judoka perspective.

[JBMontgomery87]

The trunk squeeze / body strangle / do jime compresses the ribcage, not the spine.

[chchjudoschool]

@JBMontgomery87

Makes you feel like your bladder/kidney are going to explode...pain, has anyone been injured that you are aware of??

There can also be back pain when its coupled with a twist by the person evading, i thinkthis is the scenario judo catered for in restricting the move to randori, not shiai (contest)

[berner]

Body triangle is my favourite move!

Rock on... body triangle

[loudenvier]

These are the pertinent BJJ rules:

PROHIBITED TECHNIQUES

FROM ADULT THROUGH SENIOR (BROWN AND BLACKBELT)

SLAM FROM THE GUARD

CERVICAL LOCK(only without chokes)

SCISSORS TAKEDOWN

HEEL HOOK

[chchjudoschool]

@loudenvier

Thank-you

It wasn't BJJ rules, nor Judo rules.

The rule set said no twisting neck cranks or spine locks. No heel hooks.

No throws or holds counted for points.

Submission to win.

5 person team in anyorder, winner stays out.

I notice you mention cervical lock without chokes....

[loudenvier]

@chchjudoschool Hey, I would love to have competed in this event!!! I just don't know in which side, BJJ or Judo...

[chchjudoschool]

@loudenvier

that's like the guy who we fundraised for, he is Judo and training MMA, but he trains with JJ class. I thought it was a case of not knowing who to support, he fought for the JJ club, not judo... I WAS DISAPPOINTED.

[jas108]

@chchjudoschool nice vid!the body triangle is def a spine lock.it hurts like hell and is illegal in judo i think.u win some u loose sum though

[Wrath666Child]

@chchjudoschool just man up and dont let them take your back or escape the body triangle. otherwise dont compete.

[chchjudoschool]

@Wrath666Child

I see why you are 666, the devils advocate, er....thanks...?

It was illegal, the issue was can-opener wasn't supposed to be allowed, but slipped in and yet you are correct.

[lee1990lee]

@Wrath666Child theres plenty of ways for somone to get your back and if its locked you cant get out unless they let up so man up or dont compete is just stupid if you get court then it doesnt mean you should stop its a move for a reason because it makes people tap

[chchjudoschool]

@loudenvier Is that a cervical lock, with a choke?

[loudenvier]

@chchjudoschool It looks so, but I would have to see from the front to actually determine if there was really a choke going on. If that was a choke, than the lock is allowed, because one can't say if it is the lock or the choke that made the gay tap.. What you can't have is a "naked cervical lock"...

[loudenvier]

@loudenvier [... that made the GUY tap ...] I'm terribly sorry for that slight spelling mistake... :-)

[loudenvier]

@chchjudoschool I would avoid doing that in competition though, because not all referees are really knowledgeable of the rules as one would expect :-)

[loudenvier]

There are possible escapes in this situation, and if you look at the two instances both uke ended up in the same exact position, lying sideways. If they simply tried to twist and lie with their back over tori or on the ground, there would have been no place for the body lock to applied and a escape could have been made provided they defended the strangle. Also, uke in both samples could have grabbed the back of tori head and pulled him in, defending the lock with an allowed "neck crank!"

[loudenvier]

It is hard to categorize this as a spine lock. In the purple belt this will not be allowed in BJJ competition. Starting at the brown belt, this will be allowed. This is categorized as a spine lock with a strangle applied. This is allowed after the brown level. You can't apply a crucifix though.

[chchjudoschool]

This version becomes a spine lock by application of the neck strangle at same time as the sankaku do jime

[chchjudoschool]

This is the result of judoka /JJka from judoforum who train in this technique. Not my opinion.

[chchjudoschool]

I put it on judo forum

The comment is that it is with scissoring action a kidney squeeze and not a spine lock. Damage to floating ribs and kidneys is why it was banned.

[NZD99]

all body locks need to banned as well than...

[LiteBlu]

I'm sorry son, but the judokas lost fair and square. A backmounted body triangle isn't a spinelock.

[chchjudoschool]

Spine crush if they twist to evade damaging pressure is on the spine.

If we are to keep the sport safe for all, surely any spine pressure submissions should be monitored by competent referees and rules.

He applied on me after and I was fine but Peter said it hurt his back, that's why he tapped. Andre was fine,

I am undecided and need more statistics from anyone injured in training /competing.

It seems a great technique, if not a spine crush with injuries, why was it removed from judo????

[bobehugh]

l If you define a spine crush by what happens when someone reacts, that's unbelievably vague. So if I twist a strange way to escape yoko shihogatame and my back hurts, that makes it a spinelock?

Dojime and the body triangle are compression chokes. Dojime was banned from judo because it supposedly can lead to broken ribs and internal organ damage. Technically, body triangles would be legal in judo, since dojime is applied with feet crossed and legs outstretched. It is also only a shido.

[chchjudoschool]

Dojime is illegal;

I certainly like the technique and wondered why it was excluded if a safe technique??

I assume the broken ribs and damaged organs would be real issue for those people concerned.

Sometimes when they twist it becomes a spinecrush. In judo we have to take responsibility for our techniques and spinelocks are banned, so it they twist we must not apply the technique... But it is BANNED already...

[bobehugh]

I understand the judo perspective because I'm a judo player. I think dojime being excluded is an remnant of when all judo contests were open weight, so a much larger opponent could actually hurt a smaller opponent.

[bobehugh]

Also, in judo we do have to be mindful of our techniques, but our partners have to be mindful of their own as well. If I head dive to endanger my own spine, I get the penalty and not my opponent. If my opponent moves in a way to endanger his spine, the penalty should be his and not mine. The rule as written is 'to take no action to endanger the opponent's spine'. So, even if dojime were to endanger the spine from how you describe it, it requires uke to take that action and not tori.

[chchjudoschool]

true

[bobehugh]

So, while I think we're at the point we might agree that dojime is not a spinelock (I'll also say that the body triangle/lock isn't either) the guys in this video did have a spinelock applied to them.

Tori attempted an rear naked choke, arching backwards and extending uke's spine. The body lock prevented uke's lower body from keeping alignment by acting as a fulcrum. Poor technique on uke's part and most likely overlooked in most BJJ tourneys. Tori should curl forward when applying RNC.

[chchjudoschool]

Thats a good understanding of this application;

a spinelock becuase of the arch when strangling at the same time...

[bobehugh]

Exactly, I'd even go as far to say that tori wasn't even attempting to strangle, just hooking uke's neck to use as a lever. His hips were the fulcrum and would've been whether he applied a bodylock or not.

I don't think it was purposeful or malicious, just the result of simple ignorance, not knowing, or sloppy technique.

[JBMontgomery87]

@chchjudoschool Doubtful - the spine looks less extended here than it would be performing a simple wrestler's bridge. Pretty sure it was ribcage compression the judoka submitted to.