Handel - Rodelinda "Io t'abbraccio" R. Fleming & A. Scholl

[skitzo429]

Theres a big problem on youtube with people thinking that just because they're music fans that their opinion about technical details matters, when they have a wikipedia music education. I've stated a few times on youtube that I have legitimate music credentials, which people immediately attack and assume Im placing myself on a pedastal, when in reality I just hate when posers talk to me like Im ignorant. When you have a real education you dont need to like Handel to know something aboutthe lit

[civileso]

@skitzo429 Look skitzo429 or whatever your name is: if it will shut you up, I had proper musical education, not from wikipedia, either. I studied music when there was no Internet, so shut your big, yelping, self-important mouth already. You know nothing but assuming that you're the only person who knows something about music. If you're so knowledgeable, surprise us with your musical productivity, whatever you were taught. I doubt, though, that you could produce anything but yapping.

[skitzo429]

@civileso Was I talking to you? I'm reasonably sure I didn't address/attack you directly. Thats great if you know what youre talking about, but we both know a lot of people on here don't, thats all.

[MehdiCapsI]

@skitzo429 "Was I talking to you? I'm reasonably sure I didn't address/attack you directly." Hypocrite, this is what you posted first: "the poster of this video is rather pretentious". So just shut the fuck up, now, please.

[civileso]

@skitzo429 This is the 3rd time you imply my lack of knowledge. You called me pretentious, and also implied that I had wikipedia education before tonight. So I have but to assume that this one is for me too. I think, that the 3 biggest problems we have on Baroque side of YT are the opera fans, perfect pitch pricks and arrogant music majors who always stick to their education to judge others AND do this based on their "classical" training. I am thoroughly fed up with all of these.

[MehdiCapsI]

@civileso I will add that anyone who likes this music and has no musical education is still more than welcome to voice their opinion about this performance, whether some smartasses will like it or not.

[civileso]

@MehdiCapsI That is what I mean. I will go further to say, people who like this performance are also welcome.As long as they are not condescending to other people's opinions just because they happen to study music.

[skitzo429]

@MehdiCapsI Of course they can, Ive never claimed the contrary, I don't like people telling me I'm wrong and dont know what I'm talking about just because I disagree with their opinions.

[MehdiCapsI]

@skitzo429 Then do not start with calling them names, and they will have more respect for your differing opinion.

[civileso]

@skitzo429 This is what you posted before:

"Before you get all high and mighty, are you even a real musician, or an internet troll with a wikipedia music education? I have a masters degree in music."

[skitzo429]

@civileso That was probably the first thing I posted in response to you, before you clarified that you knew what you were talking about. Im kind of sick of this, bye

[civileso]

@skitzo429 I'm glad you are. It was my goal.

[MehdiCapsI]

@skitzo429 If you hate Händel with a passion, what the fuck are you doing, here, Schizo... I mean, Skitzo. Anyway, if you "hate" Händel, it just shows you know nothing about music. Ah, and I'm a 44-year-old composer, and not a 23-year-old wannabe musician, before you ask. How dare you question Eser's musical education? She was studying music when you were still in kindergarten. Renée Fleming is HORRIBLE in this performance, and everyone who is not one of her blind fans can see that.

[skitzo429]

@MehdiCapsI Im a composer myself, thank you. You're making very broad subjective statements, plenty of people don't like Handel, it doesnt mean I dont know what Im talking about just because I think most Handel is boring. Similarly, your opinion of fleming is not universal truth, "everyone who is not one of her blind fans can see that" is pretentious and ignorant, Im not a blind fan, I just like this performance, thats where all of this stemmed from, I said that and some "experts" disagreed.

[civileso]

@skitzo429 There are many comments by people who say they like this performance under this video none of which got any reaction from me. You did, not because you liked it or because you don't like Handel but because you called me pretentious and possibly a troll with Wikipedia education only because I told my opinion. If this is what you call voicing your opinion, I would only shove it down your throat. You're one of those "freedom of speech gone wrong" guys from the US aren't you?

[MehdiCapsI]

@skitzo429 I should have added "and/or anyone who does not know much about historically informed performance of Baroque music". As for Händel, how can you not admire the guy, if you are a composer? Arias like "Ombra cara" are real tours de force (especially the chromatic accompaniment), and late arias like "As with rosy" were unmatched in his time, totally new and are still incredibly natural. There was no one better than him in the 18th century, and this includes Bach and Mozart.

[skitzo429]

@MehdiCapsI Well thats another issue, I've never professed the historically informed performance authenticity of this performance, I just like it. I just dont think handel is very interesting.

[skitzo429]

@MehdiCapsI Most people dont regard Bach as a pristine composer for the voice, I like Mozart, but sometimes its a little bouncy for me. The bel canto, however, I love and know the rep inside out.

[skitzo429]

@MehdiCapsI Did i mention that you dont know anything about me?

[PrimaRagazza]

This is a bit disappointing .. it is quite high in the soprano part but here it really *sounds* it, VERY out of tune in places too. And i really don't like whatever Fleming is doing to the word "abraccio". The vast difference in speed of vibrato also makes it sound even more unharmonious.

[amelax09]

While I am a fan of simplicity, I appreciate ornamentation in the baroque era (particularly those de capo arias!). As long as the ornamentation fits into the figured bass notations for the Basso Continuo, ornamentations are okay. That's why composers left only the simple figured bass-for improvisation and interpretation! Happy ornamenting (or simplifying)! :D

[eustazio]

Guys, don't feed the troll. Everything was said when that douche admitted to find handel boring and stated his so called degree. Dear "good old ones" ;) what you miss is not enlightened, respectful commenters. what you need is forgetting about your innocence and realising that when you are a niche in a mainstream website like youtube you will get ignorant people. ignore/block them. done. many kisses, i should be in bed but you are to blame for me being still up ;) x

[civileso]

@OedipusTyrannusII True! Handel is even more sublime when you stick to what he wrote. His real genius of relaying intense feelings comes to surface when expressed with tranquility. Just look at his most sublime vocal work: There's always some level of serenity, no matter how sad, how happy, how furious the main emotion of the aria is. That can only be achieved with the genius of keeping your feet on the ground and not losing your head while singing; not with the biggest voice.

[PrimaRagazza]

@civileso that is so true, you put it so well. I like some of the subtler ornamentation in this aria but it is a duet .. Handel creates such balance and harmony, the intertwining of two souls, so why spoil it? :)

[civileso]

@OedipusTyrannusII Hehe :) Way to go!

[civileso]

@OedipusTyrannusII You just said all I would want to say in two comments here! Thank you Duarte!

[starbreez3]

@OedipusTyrannusII Wished I could thumbs up x10000000000 times for what you just said.

[civileso]

@OedipusTyrannusII It's freedom of speech misinterpreted! If you disagree with me you'd state your point of view without personal attacks. They question my education as if their degrees provide any service to the society. They mouth off at every opportunity and fling their diplomas in my face and call me names. When they're backed in a corner they say: I have a masters degree! I'd rather have no diplomas than to become a useless, self-important bum with an academic title.

[civileso]

@OedipusTyrannusII

It really is a shame! But such are the values of the society nowadays. Downright pitiful.

[civileso]

@OedipusTyrannusII Hello there!

But you do see that I don't reply to people who come here and say they like the duet, but only to those who come and call me this and that to back their opinion cowardly, right? I have no patience with these brutes who want to assert their own likes and dislikes. I had enough of these 20-some-year-old newbies' self righteousness.

Rock on! :)

[molealto]

5:17 WTF?

[skitzo429]

@adalgisa5510 First, I didnt point out that I have a masters degree in order to assert my opinion matters more, it was because I felt like the poster of this video was talkign to me like Im ignorant. I just dont understand why people think its ok to call this "awful" just because its not "typical," which really is what the situation is. I dont think anyone would be criticizing the same embellishments made by a soprano with a small, light more baroque-ish voice.

[skitzo429]

the poster of this video is rather pretentious, Renee Fleming was thinking that she was going to make it beautiful and INTERESTING, which she did. Baroque opera can be so deadly boring, even when performed "perfectly" in style. The baroque was all about alteration and making works personal to the performers' own style, I serious doubt Handel would have objected to one of the finest sopranos in the world singing this the way she did.

[civileso]

@skitzo429 Excuse me, but no matter what you call me, I see no "interest" in frantic screaming. She is unacceptably over the top. Not to mention that this is the least "boring" moment of this glorious work of art. What baffles me more than what la Renee did there is to see so-called music lovers finding a Baroque music masterpiece boring rather than blaspheming by admitting the out-of-style over-the-top-ness of a diva. I'd say Handel would defenestrate her. See: watch?v=sk7Zs-L2Nro

[skitzo429]

@civileso You seem to think your opinion matters a lot more than it really does, get over yourself. What you call "frantic screaming" and "over the top" many people would consider beautiful, empassioned singing, myself included. Just because you dont like an interpretation doesnt mean theres anything wrong with it, she takes NO liberties until the da capo, at which point she is supposed to do so, what she does is up to her, i dont hear anything horribly uncharactaristic.

[civileso]

@skitzo429 Where did I say there is something wrong with taking any liberty singing the da capo section? It is a matter of style. I would probably criticize Scholl too if he ventured into singing Wagner with his mild Baroque style. Not to mention that a "duet", like any other team work, requires accommodating each other, trying to establish harmony and a certain degree of compatibility of the two vocal lines. Passion doesn't equal going in every direction or an individualistic show.

[skitzo429]

@civileso I can see from your channel that youre a baroque enthusiast, which is fine, but try to understand a lot of people arent into baroque opera, people have different opinions, get over it. I think most handel is boring, so do a lot of other people. Before you get all high and mighty, are you even a real musician, or an internet troll with a wikipedia music education? I have a masters degree in music.

[civileso]

@skitzo429 Don't bother yourself trying to enlighten me; I had my musical training too and I don't hide behind it to talk trash. How do I know that you have a masters degree or do I even care if you are a professor? Does that make YOU "high and mighty"?

[skitzo429]

@civileso You've just identified yourself as someone whos not worth discussing this with, since you clearly cant see the difference between what you said and what I said. YOU stated your opinions as fact calling her singing frantic screaming and pannign her interpretation, while I merely pointed out that it was only your opinion, theres no grounds for you calling me high and mighty. Furthermore, I dont support Fleming unconditionally, you dont know what youre talking about.

[civileso]

@skitzo429 Actually, you came here to oppose "my opinion". Since you're so respectful to opinions, you came out of the blue and called me pretentious. An opinion indeed! I pretended to be what? A masters degree holder? I only asked what she was thinking. If you could be honest for a moment, you'd easily see that there's something awfully wrong here. Pointing that out doesn't make one pretentious. Frankly, I don't give a damn whether you want to discuss with me or call me names.

[civileso]

@skitzo429 As long as you don't like Baroque music and find it boring, you have no opinion to offer me on how it should be sung or if it is in style or not. Just because I love this music and don't find Renee's singing fit for it, and that you love Renee unconditionally, doesn't mean that you can come here and call me pretentious or question my education.

[ceedowg]

@skitzo429 If Baroque music and Handel bores you, why are you listening to it on YouTube?

[skitzo429]

@ceedowg This duet is nice, but Ive seen this opera and regarding it as a whole, I would never see it again.

[endrrahene]

You are completely right, civileso. I wish we had taken heed of your warning and not travelled to New York to attend this production. I thought perhaps Fleming would try to accomodate her partner better, but Scholl was inaudible. She just didn't let him sing. What was supposed to be a duet became all about Flemming shrieking her coloraturas. It served us right I guess for expecting any different after hearing this clip.

[Ilusha32347]

AWESOME! This is one of the best duets I heard in my love!

[00AMARCORD00]

This is one of the best duets I've ever heard in my life, Renee Fleming was Rodelinda and Andreas Scholl was Bertarido singing just perfect at the MET few hours ago, I swear......

[veganvamp]

sorry about my previous post, who's singing here? sounds like Jaroussky not Scholl

[civileso]

@veganvamp It is Scholl, of course, as the name of the video indicates. Jaroussky never sung Bertarido (in a staged opera production at least) as far as know, neither at the MET, nor anywhere else in Europe, let alone duetting with Renée as Rodelinda.

[veganvamp]

Saw them on opening night at the MetOpera 11/14/2011. They were gorgeous in sound and sight. All those negative remarks sound like sour grapes to me. Try to sing like them. worldclass singers. Maybe Renee is a little over the top but Andreas was absolutely heaven

[endrrahene]

@veganvamp Sour grapes about what? Your comment doesn't make sense. I adore Antonacci and Scholl's duet but I don't see how you could have even heard Schol in this one. And if you're even distinguishing between Fleming and Scholl's singing, that means it wasn't a duet but two people singing side by side. They're supposed to sing as one. Antonacci and Scholl did. These two didn not.

[aeternusdanseur]

I was never really a fan of Fleeming's voice, I saw her once in a live concert in Santa Barbara CA. perhaps hoping to appreciate her voice better and change my mind....and well, that was pure wishful thinking...

[mahni712]

While not Fleming's finest moment, Scholl is not only terribly flat with horrible intonation through this duet, his phrasing and sense of musical line are non-existent. Instead we get an out of tune, lugubrious performance focused only on creating purity of sound. Ultimately a complete mismatch of readings of this great duet, and I don't think Renee is entirely to blame.

[endrrahene]

@mahni712 In my opinion, it's because he wasn't singing in his own style. I think he tried to match Fleming's elaborate ornamentation (I know that's over the top, but so was she) so as not to make her sound as excessive as she was, but she didn't return the favor by turning her volume down or even trying to match his reading. I actually think he should have done his thing no matter how much worse it made her sound. They cannot sound good together. He might as well have sounded good himself.

[angietihi]

Painful. This is not helped by the terrible recording faults. Extraordinary decorations. Ouch! Did she hurt herself?

[endrrahene]

@angietihi No she did exactly the same thing this year, both in the live performance I attended and the live braodcast. She just wanted all the spotlight for herself, I guess. But it was painful, especially when you had paid a lot of money and travelled a long way to hear it.

[Davccelion]

I agree...after hearing the duet of Antonacci and Scholl singing together this sounds terrible...

[frenchyfrench]

Worst rendition ever... Flemming doesn(t understand this music and the conductor is a nightmare...Poor Scholl !!!!!

[heula1]

This seems too slow... and a terrible mismatch of voices!

[CantoSemper49]

I kind of like the mess up.

[tepolak]

5:16 What is this?

[RobertBruce3]

I think the main problem is in natural (relative) weakness of countertenor voice. Fleming should realize this, yes... She should realize she's singing with Andreas Scholl, not with Senesino himself. It would sound better with Mijanovic I guess.

[PukKoleszka]

Is not hard to hear that Scholl is all on this piece out of tune... :/ and his line of voice is too boring... With David Daniels, Renee Fleming sung beautiful... Is not a reason... Better Partner, better music. Bye

[thebarroque]

Scholl is great as allways, but Fleming... :S, Cuzzoni must be very upset, wherever she's now :P.

In any case I liked what you posted at the video information, It really is an example of what not to do :)

[KARINADIVA]

Please could someone explain to me why male characters are given 'high' roles (ie for counter-tenor) and why women are given 'low'/mezzo roles and play male roles in many operas. It is intriguing me and I'd be so grateful if someone can help!

[successofafailur]

back in day of baroque music, boys and constratti would perform roles as well as the men and they would sing up in the mezzo range

[civileso]

Actually, they are called "castrati". The idea, in the beginning was to replace women, since they were forbidden to perform on stage. Later on, when the castrati became such phenomenal singers, composers were tempted to write roles tailored to their vocal capabilities. Now that castration is not practiced, countertenors are trying to fulfill their roles on stage as well as women who have similar ranges and volume, though not quite the same physical appearance, stage presence and lung size :))).

[KARINADIVA]

Where does this recording come from? Is it still in publication? What year?

[asisecanta]

This seems as a kind of duet between Bertarindo and not his wife but his mum or his grandma....

[endrrahene]

This is unfortunate. I absolutely love this duet, and I checked it out because of Fleming but I remember I was shocked at how bad it was. Thank heavens, I discovered Scholl and Antonacci's duet, which is the most moving thing I've ever heard and watched. Check that out for how it should be done. Scholl's voice was not as developed then but it matters not. It's a real shame he wasn't given a chance to contribute to another divine performance at the Met, when his voice was even better.

[LaBelleHelene]

Indeed!!*

[ortrud33]

Obviusly she wasnt thinking what you are thinking little nobody Civileso and... thank God she didnt! Im sure it hurts you so much that she looks sooo beautiful and sings like an angel and she will be remembered so many years after she is gone, while u look like that!, no-ones knows you and no-one ever will know you but actually u shouldnt feel that bad about yourself as to attack musicians of this level. What you do at this little pitiful page? deleting all the positive comments? u need THERAPY

[civileso]

I don't care if she's gorgeous or ugly and I never mentioned her skin beauty or whatever cosmetics she uses on my video description. My only point here is that she sang this baroque duet the way it shouldn't be sung: shriek shrill, frantic and so over the top that she even put her partner in a difficult position. I know what she is capable of doing well and this is not one of those things. You don't agree? Too bad.

[civileso]

I welcome any conflicting opinions but I only delete offensive, pointless profanity after I block the offender. Not only against me but to others watching as well as the artists that I present in my videos. I can't even say that I don't agree with your opinion, because yours is not an opinion but a personal attack. And If you hope that I'll delete your comment, it is a false hope. I'll leave it here for others to see that you've made a fool out of yourself. Good day.

[MehdiCaps]

Come on, Ortrud, even if you're a big fan of Renée, you should be able to see that she ruined this duet. I admire her in many things, she can be divine at times, but she certainly was not in this.

Also, sorry, but she is not beautiful anymore: too much surgery.

[civileso]

If I was deleting the positive comments, why would I leave this one from 3 months ago (check below) by the user "delauge"?: "I think it is the best performance I ever heard..."

I rest my case.

[Ginii1]

REALLY GOOD !!!!!

RENEE FOREVER <3

[Shaft86]

STOOOOOP!!!

[moghedien13]

UGh so disappointing. She could sound so much like a beautiful queen here too if she didnt indulge so much.

[BellatrixOrionis]

This is one of the most disappointing renditions I have ever heard.

[woytynowska]

oh dear :) that surprise was almost painful :)

[delauge]

I think it is the best performance I ever heard...

[nicosupersex]

hahahhahahhah que interpretacion tan rara

hahahahahahahhahahahahha semejantes cantantotes y cantando tan inmundo.....

[OperaLover84]

Oh my -- I am probably one of the biggest youtube-commenting Renee fans out there, but I can't stop listening to that note and cracking up! ;)

[polish109]

It's sad because Andreas Scholl does such a great job, and I love Renee Fleming. But this is not a duet, but just 2 people singing a song. If you just listen to the video of he and Anna Caterina Antonacci it is like night and day. There is seemingly no emotional connection in this version, although you can hear it in voice...clearly to much so at 5:15... but really, sad.

[tartinitrumpet]

Before I read the comments I was like WHAT?!?!

[legato699]

You should have warned us it happens at

5 min 15 s. Maybe somebody pinched her ;-)

[civileso]

LOL :)) Yes, I forgot to do that. But it would spoil all the thrill and the chill :)) She nearly gave me a heart attack when I heard this for the first time.

[Thrax1982]

I keep listening that spot over and over again, I just can't stop :)

I usually don't make cruel comments but that sounded like something Angelo Manzotti would do

:P

[civileso]

Indeed:)