This is great, but this is serialism which isn't necessarily the only type of atonal music.
Without a key center, we need something else to follow, in this case, the serialism makes sense but there are other ways to make something followable other than serialism. But this video is good.
i would love to recieve more info if thatd be cool. iv always beemn interested in atonality and i have a book on it but it leaves alot to be desired in explanation.
@threebobs I'm not a theory expert but I agree with you. That mathematical approach with all these rules does not attract me at all. It seems random and forced at the same time. Sure, older classical music also followed harmonic rules and a set of techniques but a lot of it was probably created by improvisation in some key (including key changes and such), thus making it much more of a direct expression of the composer. How would you improvise 12 tone music?
@AlexTube307 If you haven't yet, listen to A Survivor in Warsaw by Schoenberg, Berg's Violin Concerto, and Webern's Symphony. All pieces are composed using the 12 tone system but are expressively different. Schoenberg, the 12 tone creator, follows his rules but will occasionally break them if it fits the music. Berg was loose with the 12 tone system and some parts of the concerto sound very tonal. Webern was very strict and never broke the rules. All the same method, but different expressively.
Atonal music is a hit or miss as far as subjective preference of sound goes for every individual. However I see a lot of really BAD composers and musicians hide behind it, just like a lot of really horrible visual artists hide behind abstract art. They say look at some nonexistent deeper meaning that only "an intellectual" or "true musician" would be able to grasp. With that said my favorite music of all time happens to be written using 12 tone rows and is as complex as it can be.
I, too, would be interested in receiving more information on this. I am trying to write my first atonal piece and would like as much information as I can get.
i dont think im either for or against atonal music... i can understand the reasons why people may not like it, but not so much the reasons why people do like it.. however, as a composer, i feel i should be versatile and that a i should be able to write in ALL styles... i guess one really useful trait of atonal music is film music (to an eerie scene).. i dont REALLY enjoy composing atonally though because there is "too much freedom" .. i enjoy being challenged by the 'restrictions' of tonality :)
Why does there need to be a system of rules for writing atonally? : )
I personal see atonality as a freedom to create new harmonic and even melodic possibilities. I think many composers use atonality as a concept of exploration nowadays, rather than write purely atonal music within a strict set of inclusive rules. Maybe many people need rules--for me I can figure out how to write by looking at other's sheet music, and perhaps even, as Stravinsky says, claim it as my own (via this concept.)
@threebobs It is strange that my most viewed videos seem to be this atonal stuff. I get many good comments from people who actually do like it. It does speak to people. When you go to scary or eerie movies you don't have the Bee Gees playing in the background. You have dissonance because the scene is dissonant. Very easy to grasp. I write Pop style stuff that does not "fail."
You totally don't get it. I totally understand why.
@RayTutajjr I would like to say that I do understand atonal music and there's nothing wrong with it but I also want to say that a lot of eerie or scary music in movies still tend to have a tonal center.
@nxsecret That is true but some composers often abandon the tonal center for a darker or tension effect. The only tension you get from a major scale is the V7 chord and the VII and they thirst for resolution to the tonic. The VII diminished or minor 7th flat 5 however you want to interpret it is the only dissonance you get really in a major or minor scale. Maybe a locrian scale will work better. BUt i like 12-tone. It can be pure atonality.
Atonal music denies the fundamental tonal roots of music. It's found in the overtone series, difference tones, etc. An artificial system like serial music is only enjoyable from a mathematical and cerebral perspective. It isn't nearly organic enough or expressive enough in my opinion.
I also don't understand how you can say a system restrictive as this one has so much freedom in it. Modern tonal composers like Debussy and Messiaen enjoy more freedom in composing than Schoenberg ever could.
cant you just mix the two? atonal, and tonal, i wrote a Serialism piece (following the 12 tone rows and grid rules) but trying to make it sound as tonal as possible, if your interested il post the link...
wow. i'm currently writing atonal music for a string quartet and i'm a first timer, and i had no idea that there were exceptions to the twelve tone system. you stated in your video you wouldnt mind sending notes you have on this? if you still dont mind i'd love to take a look.
@Atomdude Yes, i know what ya mean. There is so much freedom in this atonal stuff. I like it and it has much expression. Many do not get it and they hate it. That's okay, we all like different things.
no offence to anyone, it's just my curiousity, but how can you listen to atonal music? it is very unpleasant to my ears, I don't find it entertaining at all, I like loud abrasive guitars, but it has to be melodic anyway. Do you get used it? or is it just natural taste for music?
@cobyblack Well, i can understand. Often we hear atonal music in movie scenes to support the scene etc. and it conveys its own mood. However quite a few folks don't mind listening to it.
@RayTutajjr thanks for reply, well I guess it isn't for me, I gave it a try, because i wanted to understand all that hype for noise rock.I found that you have actually composed something atonal, I can tell that you put a lot of effort in those compositions and you know about this stuff. Well since you mentioned it about movie scenes, I agree it has huge effect on mood, Also I played this very scary game "silent hill", music in it creates awesome atmosphere, but it sounds like heavy machinery
@cobyblack It's an adaptive taste, mostly just appreciated by theorists and composers who know what's going on and appreciate the theoretical elements and arrangements. Most people cant stand it, but Ive heard some amazing atonal pieces, as far as 12 tone... so far not so good
@MattSzwyd thanks for reply, well it is logical but still interesting how come people find it attractive, I believe it is fun for composer but it isn't such fun for listeners, however bands that just play dissonant and atonal music have so much followers, that's the thing that bothers me most, I bet it has a lot to do with drugs, but I could be wrong.
@cobyblack Yes there are many followers of this style. I think the same of rap music which i hate. I wonder is it drugs that makes them like that music? I would say not. It is all about the individual and what he or she likes. Some tastes are aquired too. I did not really like it at first but when i heard it many times it grew on me. Going to college and learning the 12-tone technique was also a big influence. I think education may also help to appreciate it.
@cobyblack I think you have to listen to it more. There are many "melodic" parts of atonal/12-tone music but you may not realize it at the moment. At some point I think you realize that harmony is just one reason why you enjoy music. Things like form, instrumentation, contour, dynamics, etc. are important and present in atonal music as well as tonal music.
@RobDerbyCollege its almost like a psychological release hearing dissonence building upon dissonence, rather than chords and melodies building upon phrases and cadences. gotta love it
I have one problem. You represent the twelve-tone system as being the only form of atonal music. Atonal music encompasses ALL music without a tonal center. Free atonality is still atonality. Atonality isn't even always chromatic: if you write a piece entirely in the whole-tone scale, chances are it is atonal.
no offense @pdclift ...but if u don't appreciate RayTutajjr's contribution in leading 'noobs' such as me through basic 'systematic' approach. thats fine. .but theres no point u dissing his.. have u got a better contribution? and the authors use of the world 'atonal' could at times just be using it as an 'adjective' not particularly the paired up noun 'atonal music' ... nonetheless. Ray is just suggesting '1' of the ways... a 'system' that works according to Schönberg.
You are describing serial music, not atonal music. You would think that you may have thought about this before posting multiple videos on the subject....
@pdclift Sorry, you are not correct. WHy would you say something like that? Are the textbooks i studied wrong then? I went to college and studied this atonal music for quite sometime. This is the way to create music with no tonal center. This music has no tonal center. Therefore it is atonal. If you don't think it is atonal then explain yourself.
@RayTutajjr@RayTutajjr First of all, serial music is not necessarily atonal... Second, there are innumerable means of composing atonal music, and there is no reason that you can't simply invent your own; dodecaphonism is just one (and is, by the way, now absurdly anachronistic)... it's absurd to try to explain 'how to compose atonal music' as if this century old technique were the only way. Revise your textbooks and avoid substituting the terms 'serial' or 'dodecaphonic' for 'atonal'.
@RayTutajjr@RayTutajjr First of all, serial music is not necessarily atonal... Second, there are innumerable means of composing atonal music, and there is no reason that you can't simply invent your own; dodecaphonism is just one (and is, by the way, now absurdly anachronistic)... it's absurd to try to explain 'how to compose atonal music' as if this century old technique were the only way. Revise your textbooks and avoid substituting the terms 'serial' or 'dodecaphonic' for 'atonal'.
@RayTutajjr@RayTutajjr First of all, serial music is not necessarily atonal... Second, there are innumerable means of composing atonal music, and there is no reason that you can't simply invent your own; dodecaphonism is just one (and is, by the way, now absurdly anachronistic)... it's ridiculous to try to explain 'how to compose atonal music' as if this century old technique were the only way. Revise your textbooks and avoid substituting the terms 'serial' or 'dodecaphonic' for 'atonal'.
@pdclift The video reads "A brief introduction to atonality" IT does not say this is the only way atoanlity is achieved. I have used this method introduced by Arnold Shoenberg. IT works, it achieves no tonal center. I like this system because of its strict rules. If you go by them then atoanlity is achieved. Not the only way to achieve it but i am explaining Schoenberg's system by use of the matrix. The video explains this system. Yes it achieves atonality. Why are you arguing?
@pdclift SOme people do not know how to create atonal music. Many hear my videos and they like what they hear so they have asked me how i am doing it. So i posted a video of how i am achieving atonality. I like it this way because for me it is very systematic. It works solid.
So how do you create atonal music? What is your method?? Can i hear some of your compositions on youtube please?
This is great, but this is serialism which isn't necessarily the only type of atonal music.
Without a key center, we need something else to follow, in this case, the serialism makes sense but there are other ways to make something followable other than serialism. But this video is good.
akamarutv 2 weeks ago
i would love to recieve more info if thatd be cool. iv always beemn interested in atonality and i have a book on it but it leaves alot to be desired in explanation.
acceptthevoid 2 months ago
@threebobs I'm not a theory expert but I agree with you. That mathematical approach with all these rules does not attract me at all. It seems random and forced at the same time. Sure, older classical music also followed harmonic rules and a set of techniques but a lot of it was probably created by improvisation in some key (including key changes and such), thus making it much more of a direct expression of the composer. How would you improvise 12 tone music?
AlexTube307 2 months ago
@AlexTube307 If you haven't yet, listen to A Survivor in Warsaw by Schoenberg, Berg's Violin Concerto, and Webern's Symphony. All pieces are composed using the 12 tone system but are expressively different. Schoenberg, the 12 tone creator, follows his rules but will occasionally break them if it fits the music. Berg was loose with the 12 tone system and some parts of the concerto sound very tonal. Webern was very strict and never broke the rules. All the same method, but different expressively.
Ybarchov21 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Im interested, send me more information. :)
emilioerandu 3 months ago
Comment removed
emilioerandu 3 months ago
Atonal music is a hit or miss as far as subjective preference of sound goes for every individual. However I see a lot of really BAD composers and musicians hide behind it, just like a lot of really horrible visual artists hide behind abstract art. They say look at some nonexistent deeper meaning that only "an intellectual" or "true musician" would be able to grasp. With that said my favorite music of all time happens to be written using 12 tone rows and is as complex as it can be.
Akiachrounoumena 3 months ago
could you send me the pages? so interestign! thanks!
PhilEmanS 5 months ago
I, too, would be interested in receiving more information on this. I am trying to write my first atonal piece and would like as much information as I can get.
GoatShanty 5 months ago
@GoatShanty The info is at atonality101tripodcom Just add the dots after 101 and tripod to get there.
RayTutajjr 5 months ago
i dont think im either for or against atonal music... i can understand the reasons why people may not like it, but not so much the reasons why people do like it.. however, as a composer, i feel i should be versatile and that a i should be able to write in ALL styles... i guess one really useful trait of atonal music is film music (to an eerie scene).. i dont REALLY enjoy composing atonally though because there is "too much freedom" .. i enjoy being challenged by the 'restrictions' of tonality :)
bacardifebreezer 5 months ago
@threebobs Try writing a real atonal song and get back to him
Soadsgotaload 6 months ago
Why does there need to be a system of rules for writing atonally? : )
I personal see atonality as a freedom to create new harmonic and even melodic possibilities. I think many composers use atonality as a concept of exploration nowadays, rather than write purely atonal music within a strict set of inclusive rules. Maybe many people need rules--for me I can figure out how to write by looking at other's sheet music, and perhaps even, as Stravinsky says, claim it as my own (via this concept.)
Rkmajora 6 months ago
@threebobs It is strange that my most viewed videos seem to be this atonal stuff. I get many good comments from people who actually do like it. It does speak to people. When you go to scary or eerie movies you don't have the Bee Gees playing in the background. You have dissonance because the scene is dissonant. Very easy to grasp. I write Pop style stuff that does not "fail."
You totally don't get it. I totally understand why.
RayTutajjr 6 months ago 8
@RayTutajjr I would like to say that I do understand atonal music and there's nothing wrong with it but I also want to say that a lot of eerie or scary music in movies still tend to have a tonal center.
nxsecret 5 months ago
@nxsecret That is true but some composers often abandon the tonal center for a darker or tension effect. The only tension you get from a major scale is the V7 chord and the VII and they thirst for resolution to the tonic. The VII diminished or minor 7th flat 5 however you want to interpret it is the only dissonance you get really in a major or minor scale. Maybe a locrian scale will work better. BUt i like 12-tone. It can be pure atonality.
RayTutajjr 5 months ago
Atonal music denies the fundamental tonal roots of music. It's found in the overtone series, difference tones, etc. An artificial system like serial music is only enjoyable from a mathematical and cerebral perspective. It isn't nearly organic enough or expressive enough in my opinion.
I also don't understand how you can say a system restrictive as this one has so much freedom in it. Modern tonal composers like Debussy and Messiaen enjoy more freedom in composing than Schoenberg ever could.
woodencardboard 6 months ago
@iorost They are at atonality101.tripod,com
Glad you like this.
RayTutajjr 7 months ago
Systematic avoidance of systems.
What a wonderful concept.
CatFlashBlue 7 months ago
cant you just mix the two? atonal, and tonal, i wrote a Serialism piece (following the 12 tone rows and grid rules) but trying to make it sound as tonal as possible, if your interested il post the link...
SamMillsful 7 months ago
wow. i'm currently writing atonal music for a string quartet and i'm a first timer, and i had no idea that there were exceptions to the twelve tone system. you stated in your video you wouldnt mind sending notes you have on this? if you still dont mind i'd love to take a look.
surfchick94 7 months ago
I feel good about just recently stopping to give a damn about tonality in my own compositions. Free at last.
Atomdude 8 months ago
@Atomdude Yes, i know what ya mean. There is so much freedom in this atonal stuff. I like it and it has much expression. Many do not get it and they hate it. That's okay, we all like different things.
RayTutajjr 7 months ago 4
@RayTutajjr I'm a keyboardist. I think I can make a horror soundtrack. All I need is a recording studio, and I'm set. You know what I mean?
TheSkull711 2 weeks ago
@TheSkull711 I know what ya mean!
RayTutajjr 2 weeks ago
no offence to anyone, it's just my curiousity, but how can you listen to atonal music? it is very unpleasant to my ears, I don't find it entertaining at all, I like loud abrasive guitars, but it has to be melodic anyway. Do you get used it? or is it just natural taste for music?
cobyblack 10 months ago
@cobyblack Well, i can understand. Often we hear atonal music in movie scenes to support the scene etc. and it conveys its own mood. However quite a few folks don't mind listening to it.
RayTutajjr 10 months ago
@RayTutajjr thanks for reply, well I guess it isn't for me, I gave it a try, because i wanted to understand all that hype for noise rock.I found that you have actually composed something atonal, I can tell that you put a lot of effort in those compositions and you know about this stuff. Well since you mentioned it about movie scenes, I agree it has huge effect on mood, Also I played this very scary game "silent hill", music in it creates awesome atmosphere, but it sounds like heavy machinery
cobyblack 10 months ago
@cobyblack It's an adaptive taste, mostly just appreciated by theorists and composers who know what's going on and appreciate the theoretical elements and arrangements. Most people cant stand it, but Ive heard some amazing atonal pieces, as far as 12 tone... so far not so good
MattSzwyd 10 months ago
@MattSzwyd thanks for reply, well it is logical but still interesting how come people find it attractive, I believe it is fun for composer but it isn't such fun for listeners, however bands that just play dissonant and atonal music have so much followers, that's the thing that bothers me most, I bet it has a lot to do with drugs, but I could be wrong.
cobyblack 10 months ago
@cobyblack Yes there are many followers of this style. I think the same of rap music which i hate. I wonder is it drugs that makes them like that music? I would say not. It is all about the individual and what he or she likes. Some tastes are aquired too. I did not really like it at first but when i heard it many times it grew on me. Going to college and learning the 12-tone technique was also a big influence. I think education may also help to appreciate it.
RayTutajjr 10 months ago
@RayTutajjr So it is something that you grow to like :)
cobyblack 10 months ago
@cobyblack I think you have to listen to it more. There are many "melodic" parts of atonal/12-tone music but you may not realize it at the moment. At some point I think you realize that harmony is just one reason why you enjoy music. Things like form, instrumentation, contour, dynamics, etc. are important and present in atonal music as well as tonal music.
zhale1988 9 months ago
@cobyblack Atonal music offers musical textures that generic styles can never sound like
RobDerbyCollege 8 months ago
@RobDerbyCollege its almost like a psychological release hearing dissonence building upon dissonence, rather than chords and melodies building upon phrases and cadences. gotta love it
acceptthevoid 8 months ago
This sounds very familiar. Would the piece Atonal marimba by Jacob Preston be the same thing?
AtonalMarimba 10 months ago
I have one problem. You represent the twelve-tone system as being the only form of atonal music. Atonal music encompasses ALL music without a tonal center. Free atonality is still atonality. Atonality isn't even always chromatic: if you write a piece entirely in the whole-tone scale, chances are it is atonal.
colourfulwithaU 1 year ago
@colourfulwithaU
Yes i already know there are other ways to achieve atoanlity. BUt i use this one the most.
Have a good day.
RayTutajjr 1 year ago
@colourfulwithaU
Yes i already know there are other ways to achieve atonnlity. BUt i use this one the most.
Have a good day.
RayTutajjr 1 year ago
@colourfulwithaU
Yes i already know there are other ways to achieve atonality. BUt i use this one the most.
Have a good day.
RayTutajjr 1 year ago
HI Ray, can I get the in depth paper you are mentioning in your video on how to create the Martix?? thank you!
mariesalas1 1 year ago
@mariesalas1 Sure, at my website guitarjourney you will find it. Look on the task bar at left and it is on the bottom.
Glad you find the music interesting.
Ray
RayTutajjr 1 year ago
How does one go about choosing the 12 tones, is it random or do they need to be related harmonically?
janken919 1 year ago
@janken919 Make sure the intervals are dissonant if you can. Stay away from major 3rds and 5ths for example.
Good luck!
Ray
RayTutajjr 1 year ago
no offense @pdclift ...but if u don't appreciate RayTutajjr's contribution in leading 'noobs' such as me through basic 'systematic' approach. thats fine. .but theres no point u dissing his.. have u got a better contribution? and the authors use of the world 'atonal' could at times just be using it as an 'adjective' not particularly the paired up noun 'atonal music' ... nonetheless. Ray is just suggesting '1' of the ways... a 'system' that works according to Schönberg.
phedigree 1 year ago
Thank you very much!
It is really useful to my compositions
Keithchui2006 1 year ago
You are describing serial music, not atonal music. You would think that you may have thought about this before posting multiple videos on the subject....
pdclift 1 year ago
@pdclift Sorry, you are not correct. WHy would you say something like that? Are the textbooks i studied wrong then? I went to college and studied this atonal music for quite sometime. This is the way to create music with no tonal center. This music has no tonal center. Therefore it is atonal. If you don't think it is atonal then explain yourself.
RayTutajjr 1 year ago
Comment removed
pdclift 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@RayTutajjr @RayTutajjr First of all, serial music is not necessarily atonal... Second, there are innumerable means of composing atonal music, and there is no reason that you can't simply invent your own; dodecaphonism is just one (and is, by the way, now absurdly anachronistic)... it's absurd to try to explain 'how to compose atonal music' as if this century old technique were the only way. Revise your textbooks and avoid substituting the terms 'serial' or 'dodecaphonic' for 'atonal'.
pdclift 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@RayTutajjr @RayTutajjr First of all, serial music is not necessarily atonal... Second, there are innumerable means of composing atonal music, and there is no reason that you can't simply invent your own; dodecaphonism is just one (and is, by the way, now absurdly anachronistic)... it's absurd to try to explain 'how to compose atonal music' as if this century old technique were the only way. Revise your textbooks and avoid substituting the terms 'serial' or 'dodecaphonic' for 'atonal'.
pdclift 1 year ago
@RayTutajjr @RayTutajjr First of all, serial music is not necessarily atonal... Second, there are innumerable means of composing atonal music, and there is no reason that you can't simply invent your own; dodecaphonism is just one (and is, by the way, now absurdly anachronistic)... it's ridiculous to try to explain 'how to compose atonal music' as if this century old technique were the only way. Revise your textbooks and avoid substituting the terms 'serial' or 'dodecaphonic' for 'atonal'.
pdclift 1 year ago
@pdclift The video reads "A brief introduction to atonality" IT does not say this is the only way atoanlity is achieved. I have used this method introduced by Arnold Shoenberg. IT works, it achieves no tonal center. I like this system because of its strict rules. If you go by them then atoanlity is achieved. Not the only way to achieve it but i am explaining Schoenberg's system by use of the matrix. The video explains this system. Yes it achieves atonality. Why are you arguing?
RayTutajjr 1 year ago
@pdclift SOme people do not know how to create atonal music. Many hear my videos and they like what they hear so they have asked me how i am doing it. So i posted a video of how i am achieving atonality. I like it this way because for me it is very systematic. It works solid.
So how do you create atonal music? What is your method?? Can i hear some of your compositions on youtube please?
RayTutajjr 1 year ago
@pdclift I believe RayTutajjr is right.
danielkirk1 1 year ago
this is great i wish for there to be more videos on this
silvart 1 year ago