Bach Adagio g-minor played by Joseph Joachim 1904

[nicolasgabaron]

Vraiment émouvant d'entendre une interprétation aussi ancienne de ce mythique violoniste et tout de même assez claire. Merci beaucoup!

[MrGer2295]

Joseph Joachim(1831-1907)

was one of the greatest violinists of the 19th-century, a performer of impeccable technique and complete artistic integrity-not for him were the flashy crowd-thrilling antics of some 19th-century virtuosos.

wow! This is very nice recordings from a 1904!!! Thank you for sharing.

[bersa888]

Say what you may, but this is probably closer to the original "intentions" of the composer than some people may think....

[GregHuismans]

@bersa888 And the basis of your assertion is??

[bersa888]

Well... I don't have a recording of Geminiani playing the violin :-) but, for what we can deduct from texts, documents, letters, etc., and manuscripts themselves from the baroque, playing and singing music during that time was far more free (real declamation, flexible tempos, favoring smaller motifs and melodic cells over the "long phrase", basically no vibrato, etc.). This recording of Joachim, besides being closer to the previous centuries than us, seems to be reflecting those tendencies.

[stringscgda]

last comment: If you wiki Joseph Bohm and trace back the instructional ancestry, it goes back into the 1600's with ties to all of the composers since Baroque. :)

[stringscgda]

... "shure" not "should" ... typo in last comment sigh.

[stringscgda]

This man's teacher, Joseph Bohm, had a working relationship with Ludwig van Beethoven! Bohm taught both of Auer's teachers, and Auer says not to use excessive vibrato. I'm should Bohm, who knew Beethoven, taught the same thing.

[stringscgda]

Regarding my last comment: You can read Leopold Auer's book "Violin as I Teach It" on google books now for free, since it is in the public domain. Read his section on Vibrato. Also read the section on bowing--he talks about how all his teachers bowed.

[stringscgda]

The man you listening to worked w/ Johannes Brahms & was taught by Joseph Bohm. Joseph Joachim along with Jacob Dont (also taught by Bohm) were Leopold Auer's teachers. Leopald Auer taught everyone at Julliard and indirectly has taught virtually all of today's virtuosos. Notice the lack of vibrato except for long duration notes? Leopard Auer tried to teach his students this, but they didn't listen often. So, in general, today's classical violin, in general is probably a misrepresentation.

[dbrcarson]

Wow wow wow wow I can't believe we have a recording of Joachim

[Drakopulous]

This is amazing fiddle playing.

[davidj1011]

@l3monkun

Tortelier once said that we've cut ourselves off from our hearts. That's what I mean. You're mistaking differences and evolutions (which are necessary) with a common denominator that is life, nature, beauty, expressivity. And we should make a difference between creation and interpretation. Your comments don't apply because the pieces we're talking about are the same, Bach in the present case. You can't say every generation has different ideas, plays it differently, because

[davidj1011]

@davidj1011

because the text is here, before our eyes. This is what we should express, not ourselves. The music contains the ideas, not us, even though the interpret must a musical sense to help him in making choices since all cannot be set down in the manuscript.

Now, a composer who'd come up with a piece sounding like Bach or Bartok of course would be dismissed.

'Tradition ist Schlamperei'...hat Mahler gesagt. That made me smile. Did you get it from a famous violinist who used to say that?

[davidj1011]

@l3monkun

I'm against reproduction. Reproduction is in essence dead, and art should be a living thing. No vibrato is death. Sivori may not have played exactly like Paganini but there must've been a lot of similarities. Kreisler said the old Massart liked his playing so much because it reminded him of his earlier pupil Wieniawski. There is a continuation between those generations. But for the last 50 years or so what's been happening is tabula rasa, dismissing and rejecting that continuation.

[davidj1011]

@l3monkun

The difference is that the fact Earth is round is no fabricated myth. By saying it is round you don't dismiss an important heritage and impoverish a culture while giving jobs and recognition to mediocre phonies. Maybe you see the difference. Thank you for this discussion.

[davidj1011]

@l3monkun

Geminiani said "move the wrist in and out slowly and equally". Isn't that a good description of vibrato as we know it?

And then of course, "as often as possible" because you just can't vibrate every single note and whether they held the fiddle in this or that position is totally irrelevant to the question. These are fallacious arguments.

Geminiani, Corelli, Tartini... they were progressive, they made changes to their instruments so they could play more expressive, don't forget that

[davidj1011]

@l3monkun

Please name me someone nowadays who has enough knowledge to go against the dictate of today's groupthink. Students are brainwashed as soon as they get into a conservatory, they were never taught otherwise and don't ask themselves why they should play this way or another. Teachers, when they play some Bach in harmony class play recordings by Gardiner or Norrington. Come on.

[davidj1011]

@l3monkun

While I did read Montgomery, I also read Geminiani, Mozart, Spohr, etc. About Geminiani, well, short or fast notes, what's relevant is he says "as often as possible". I never held one of those thick-necked violins, don't necessarily intend to, but maybe there's a reason the luthiers eventually made narrower necks. The "technically not possible at the time" argument is not valid, I'm sorry. It can only be an explanation why some must've had a bad vibrato and why others condemned it.

[davidj1011]

@davidj1011

The real problem IS that we're discussing vibrato and that some Herr Professoren are dictating what's right or wrong. To me there's no such question as "is my Szeryng recording ok". This is just stupid. A real waste of time. This is what they want people to think so they can sell them their HIP nonsense. You know, I really think there are musicians and musicologists. And I try to be of the former category.

[davidj1011]

@davidj1011

PS: I said I TRY. Sounds pompous, forgive me...

[davidj1011]

@l3monkun

Last thing, you can read W-A Mozart's letter to his father in which he criticizes a singer for his "vibrato" as some people dishonestly say : the description isn't that of a normal vibrato, and Mozart adds ''the human voice already vibrates on its own but so that it's natural [...] and we reproduce that on our instruments. But as soon as you overdo it [and that means in width etc, not in frequence of use], it is no longer beautiful because it is against nature." Key word : nature.

[davidj1011]

@l3monkun

I doubt vibrato was considered that. Vibrato isn't whiny or sentimental but can suggest strength and nobility much better than plain sound, which DOES sound whiny. And don't forget one thing : musicians strive to emulate the human voice, and singers praised at the time were Caruso and the likes.

Kreisler was popular but it's far too much credit to give one man to think he could have that much of an influence. No need to say what I think about Norrington's argument about gypsy style

[davidj1011]

@l3monkun @l3monkun

Well there is confusion in Spohr, Joachim, Auer and others between different concepts (tremolo, vibrato, bebung), so it makes it difficult to know what exactly they were writing about. Similarly, what does Joachim really refer to as "stetige Tongebung"?

Can you back what you say about Joachim's criticism against Ysaye?

Sivori, I'm convinced, would've played more or less in his master's style. That would mean vibrato on every note as Geminiani wrote in his treatise

[gerardbedecarter]

A fascinating historical recording.

[Svatopluk]

Fantastic! Back before violinists were obsessed with wobbly vibrato. Bowing is delicate and controlled. Thanks for the post

[1choyero]

great find gracias!!!!!!!!

[lunar5759]

can't believe this is on youtube. so awesome!

[StMartinTours]

Joachim's intonation is a lot more pure than many violinists these days (no sharp leading tones).

[strangerheart]

i love this!

[strangerheart]

wow!thanks for posting,it's great to back in time like in a time machine

[paulostroff99]

Superb playing! TY

[yourforte]

A privilege to be able to hear this.

[skaprazz]

Very very interesting!!...romantic tradition in glissandi but less less less less less less less vibrato.

[beeteep60]

Does any one know if they put any of Joachim's recordings on cd?

[ghostofdayinperson]

My dad plays this a lot. It always makes me melancholy.

[Ascendyourthinking]

What separates Proper interpretation & showiness? One perspective asks how can I impress the pants off (literally!) of a girl, the other asks how can I speak to the soul. One seeks to ooze technically mastery while the other inquires into advancing and rewriting the foundations of musical communication. One's focus is on feelings, facts, and the tangible, whilst the other on emotion, truth, and ideas. Joachim sang with his instrument, because a creation is fashioned to mirror it's creator.

[theoldar]

I think the whole point behind this recording, what makes it special, is that this is how a 19th century violinist played Bach. And Joachim was considered a conservative. He hated showiness. It tells us so much about how much more freedom a virtuoso had then in interpreting a work.

[cattledog5]

It's important that improvisation was at the heart of composition in Bach's time.

I really like this recording. It's really hard to find a violinist who can play the unaccompanied with any sincerity. Listening to Heifitz play Bach makes me want to plunge an icepick into both eardrums.

I think the best Bach violin I've ever heard are probably this recording and Milstein, although they are quite different sounding.

[tuxedomoon]

He maybe play more correct that others, but he doesnt follow right the tempo of Bach's piece as it is written.Some ornaments plays quick ,some fast although are all semiquavers or more ,so he does His own way anyway

[metteholm75]

Try listening to early Segovia recordings: He brought that tradition with him into the late 20th century.

[komoelorto]

Una tremebunda cagada

[wks1978]

I don't think vibrato was necessarily considered vulgar in the baroque period, but it was probably used in a different way and much more sparingly. to how many people use it today.

To my ears at least Joachim's performance here is much closer to how early music "specialists" play this work today than how many modern mainstream players play it.

[shiveringflower]

It was considered vulgar in the mainstream,really only being thought appropriate for 'popular' music I agree with you that Joachim's playing uses vibrato sparingly(this was in keeping with the classic school,of which Joachim was,possibly the last survivor),and,as such,truer to how Bach may have heard it. For me,heavy vibrato in Bach blurs what should be distinct. I love Joachim's playing and often daydream about how magnificent his Chaconne must have been.

[michaelmartind]

I agree completely, wks. As an early music specialist, there's so much for me to admire in Joachim's performance. Might I also add that in addition to the minimal vibrato, Joachim understands the concept of playing ornamental figuration in an ornamental manner - not hammering every note out the way 20th century violinists did.

[tuxedomoon]

Not appropriate for Bach?

From what source do you find that and tell it.

Everybody says no vibrato and Geminiani says vibrato on each note,dont hear blindly read sources yoursleves and gather your own thoughts,perhaps too much vibrato is not good but too little is also not good,it is like you have a piece without ornaments ,empty

[takamiti8]

ヨアヒムの演奏録音が存在するだけで奇跡だ

[tuxedomoon]

Guys what are you talkikg about ,vibrato existed very much in Baroque epoch ,there are more than 30 treatises which ismentioned ,Geminiani is one example,this just a myth,please read all old sources and dont hear blind what everyone say which he heard from someone else.

[shiveringflower]

It existed but wasn't it generally considered vulgar and not appropriate for music such as Bach's?

[ipmoic]

Perhaps I should have mentioned that Joachim uses very little vibrato in all of these marvelous uploads here on YouTube. It's not just in his Baroque playing. Listen to his Brahms Hungarian Dance #1.

What is fascinating to me is what an eye-opening, episode this is to students of violin history.

As to your assertion about Baroque music-- were you there?? Or have you just bought into modern performance practices of an era that nobody can be absolutely certain about?

[yosoyaca]

Realmente esta interpretacion es horrible!!!

Me desepcionò Joseph Joachim

[ipmoic]

All else aside, it is certainly instructive to hear how little vibrato Joachim used. Was it the standard of the time or simply his standard? Fascinating stuff.

[OurenV2]

its called baroque music, little, if any vibrato is used.

[edrmat19]

Great person, great artist, great music!

[nickwashere7]

Check the dates. He was over 70 when he recorded this (just 3 years before his death). Imagine how he must have played as a young man!

[NiallMS]

What a marvellous recording from so long ago.

[barakooda]

One of the giants

[blaster2012]

Beautiful ^-^

[GerdLinden]

Joachim war auch ein interessanter Komponist.

Informationen: fuer-die-ohren(.)at (Oben unter J zu finden.

[takamori400]

Thank you for sharing this rare and great recording. My son played this piece, so we listened to many violinists played. This is so wonderful, and I feel like that this is somewhat very close to the way Bach wanted to play...

[themfromspace]

This is unbelievable! A relic from the days when expression and feeling were supreme and arguments like "its not right since its not as Bach would have heard it" were recognized as the fallicies they are.

[fiddlinmatt]

thanks for the history (I'm a history geek- and violinist)

[solanteri]

As interesting as this recording is - essentially, a 19th century musician's rendition of Bach - it doesn't really give us much of an idea as to 'how Bach sounded when he played' (see comment below). The physical properties of the violin, strings and bow were substantially different in Bach's time, and would have sounded quite different. They would also have affected a somewhat different interpretation of the music. Nevertheless, this recording provides a rare insight into a bygone era.

[michaelmartind]

I'll grant you that the construction of the violin and bow were different between Joachim and Bach, but how were the strings different? Bach's strings were gut, and so were Joachim's. As far as I can see, Joachim's rendition is closer to Bach than the modern, synthetic string renditions of today.

[oldgoat5]

Bach's strings were way bigger in gauge than there was in joachims time. other than that, nothing except maybe the new wound gut g which they invented around back then.

[wcbroccoli]

No.

Where did you get the idea that "Bach's strings were way bigger in gauge than there was in joachims time."?

The "new wound gut" you speak of was introduced BEFORE Bach was born.

And "modern" metal strings were not introduced until after WW2. This recording dates from 1904.

Metal lasts longer that gut, but gut produces a better tone. The concertmaster of a major philharmonic orchestra continued to use gut until he retired in 1960.

[seasaid]

Very, very cool.

[Mimameior]

Forget the sound quality and questions over interpretation - it's just awesome to be able to go back in history like this! One of the greatest violinists of the 19th century, and a man who knew many of the great composers personally... wow! Thanks for posting.

[violinista53]

Bach was a fine improviser, and that is precisely how Joachim treats it.

[jonianviolinist]

youre absolutely mistaken!

[NicolasAine]

no I don't think so, this doesn't sould improvised to me at all. It's a nice recording, but I don't think he plays it the way Bach had played it.

[ukotaf]

You might be incredibly clever, smarty pants! Already 16?

[znanto]

I can't make sense of this.

[winstonalex007]

this is some sort of enchanting echoe from the past, I am really thrilled to hear it... even though the recording dates from 100 years only, it makes me feel that this is how Bach sounded when he played the violin

[gt001g]

Taking the age of performer out of the evaluation, would have this performance delighted the likes of Robert Schumann (who provided piano accompaniments to this solo violin Bach cycle), Felix Mendelssohn (who was largely credited for reviving Bach's repertoire), or Johannes Brahms?

[ComfortablyUnnumb]

@gt001g yes, to this obvious and rhetorical question,and thank you for trying to organize a more profound discussion based off of the implications of your question.Have you ever read Moses Mendelsohnn's philosophical writings?

[gt001g]

Could you please point to text or excerpt from MM that you have in mind?

[gt001g]

Hearing is believing... A testament of the times, stunningly clear - though puzzling to our ear. How does one justify reading the text in this manner? (and likely instructing hundreds of students - if only through fastidious score editing?)

[TialysAragos]

He's *very* articulate! Dag, yo...

[apollodionysus7]

what a moment for me! I had not heard Joachim before. When this man was coming up at age 20, Chopin had been dead only two years; Schumann, Liszt and Berlioz were close to 40, and Tschaikovsky was only 11. Debussy would not come into being for another 11 years...it fills me with wonder...

[jaywbe]

are you a violinist? if you're not, that would be why.. but still.. 0.0

he's like one of THE masters, i think bruch concerto g min was dedicated for him, and he was brahms' best mate

[apollodionysus7]

pianist... thanks for the score, lol!

It's so cool to think about him and the people

around during his lifetime; they might have heard him play, just as we are now...

[violindave2]

Vibrato was used as an ornament in Baroque times. It has become more widely used, sometimes too much. Isaac Stern demonstrated it perfectly, the amount of vibrato should be varied according to the mood and tempo of the music; you would not get the desired result if you used a strong V. in the 2nd mvmt. of Mendellsohn's E minor. You use a delicate V. My teachers all taught the same, taylor your vibrato to the music. THAT is making music as opposed to just playing music!

[takamori400]

Mozart started using vibto. So, Baroque (Back) did not use vibrato. That I was taught.

[cronai]

Yikes, this gives me goosebumps all over!!! I never thought that, one day, I would be able to listen to Joachim... To think this was recorded more than 100 years ago! Fantastic, simply fantastic!

Thank you very, very much for sharing this historical recording!

[oboebaron]

Joachim and every artist of his generation generally regarded vibrato as an embellishment and not as a continuous part of the tone. Even one of his students, Leopold Auer, wrote as late as 1921 that "Those who are convinced that an eternal vibrato is the secret of soulful playing - are pitifully misguided in their belief...in an ostrich-like endeavor to conceal bad tone production and intonation."

[lourak]

What a brilliant and valuable insight expressed by Auer - I wasn't aware. If only this lesson penetrated the hearts and minds of modern day performers (on all instruments).

[edgyk8]

The technology beening what it was :primive a wax clinder, has unfortunately deprived use of the 'real' sound.I hope other listens will try a much as possible to cut through the extremely poor recording quality and hear the art within. Thank you for posting

[Amiduffer]

Wow! You are quite amazing Mr. Poldi! This is quite the historical find. Just imagine, that Mr. Joachim was personally acquanted with some of the most important composers of the late 19th century! I'm going to save this in my favorites, because this is something to be shared with others. I think I can forgive Mr. Joachim for a less-than stellar performance considering the age at which he played.

[prokkets]

this guy is really bad not even a match for a high school student he should b vibratoing every note and he needs to move more, this is totally devoid of emotoin how can anyone enjoy this boring cold song like a robot is playing it, if u want realm music itzhak perlman or stern are the only true virtuosos

[poldi24]

Any idea why Johannes Brahms wrote his violin concerto for him and dedicated to him?

[StMartinTours]

@poldi24 I think he and Brahms were lifelong friends.

[AbsoluteZ3R0]

You idiot, vibrato only recently became commonly used and it didn't begin until the turn of the 19th century. Yes, that means Niccolo Paganini more than likely did not use any vibrato. It's a shame that you need to hear vibrato to appreciate music. This guy was far more of a virtuoso than Itzhak Perlman (if you read the description he played the Beethoven violin concerto when he was 12).

[abburidotakaria]

this guy was also far more of a virtuoso than jascha heifetz

[AbsoluteZ3R0]

I doubt that, at least not in terms of technique.

[AbsoluteZ3R0]

He also premiered the Brahms violin concerto. He was 73 when he made this recording, so one can only imagine how great he was when he was younger. If you seriously can not recognize the enormous talent and musicianship that Joachim posessed just because he doesn't use vibrato and because the recording is bad then I feel sorry for you. Think next time before you make yourself sound like an idiot on youtube and declare to the world that you are a substandard musician.

[calogria]

Hmmm... exactly the same comment from exactly the same person at exactly the same piece played by Arnold Rosé. I doubt we should take this seriously.

[corax176]

@prokkets tú eres mas tonto que las piedras, ¿no ves que es otra época? Anda e infórmate, cipollaco.

[Drakopulous]

@prokkets What a fool...

[Violinguru]

Thank you for giving us the sounds of this great legend 104 years after his recording. Youtube is a marvel. You have given Joachim life again. What would he think if he knew the world would be listning to this recording a century later. I am awstruck.

[arielpesach]

You are really right! Life is given back to all these old names that we have heard so much about. This is history at its best.

I find the recordings astonishingly good. After all we hear recordings from a time, when this was something so revolutionary that we unfortunately have forgotten that thanks to these technical pioneers, we are, where we are today. Just think an another 100 years back...

[Schnabel87]

Joachim also recorded the bourree from BWV1002 as well as a Brahms Hungarian Dance around the same time (~1903). I find his playing fascinating to listen to.

[larryrael]

He was 73 when this was recorded!!!

[musique55]

wow, almost no vibrato... why have we modernized this music and many more music by adding so much vibrato? I guess it's just a habit because it feels kind of weird playing with NO vibrato at all!

[spinningwheel]

You can blame his students for that :) Auer was his student, so pretty much most of the great ones can trace their violinistic lineage to him. Seriously though he plays with almost no vibrato, but its also hard to hear the vibrato because of the poor recording quality (I can see Edison sitting next to him on this one!)

[jasteendam]

vibrato is not an invention of the 20th century, it has actually historically been around since the renaissance. however somewhere along the line it became popular to play baroque music with no or little vibrato. I don't think that either is right or wrong, it really is a personal choice.

[musique55]

Oh,yes,of course it is a personal choice.but let's say in the renaissance era where violinists would hold the violin differently,with no shoulder rest and no chin rest..I don't know how much vibrato could have been played unther those conditions.maybe that's why they didn't play pieces with much vibrato.

[sirsquickalot]

@jasteendam Although it's correct that vibrato has been around for hundreds of years, the intention and reason for using it changed massively after Joachim. I believe that it's quite well documented that Joachim and his peers used very little vibrato by today's standards, but did use it nevertheless. The quick intense constant vibrato really only came in with Kreisler and the like, and Joachim made it clear that he hated this. Vibrato was used with discretion, not like wallpaper.

[jcfbell3001]

@sirsquickalot

interesting...i hate to say it, but i can't stand the intense vibrato and goopy slides that kreisler did...really talented guy, just don't like that style...

[davidj1011]

@sirsquickalot I'm afraid what you say is untrue. Please tell me where you read Joachim hated vibrato, or that Kreisler was the first to have a continuous vibrato.

[stradman89]

Some accounts note that Joachim's vibrato production diminished at this age....nearer to when he died

[felixmendelssohn]

thanks for posting this!

[djstrad]

legendary recording,

thanks 4 sharing:)

[jarkkkoo]

kurcze skad ty to wytrzasnales