Holy Rollers-The True Story of Card Counting Christians

[mrsjetjr3]

Amazing, I will withold any judgement, I do not know these people's hearts. The gambling addiction is like any others it seeks to destroy all that fall prey. I pray these "Holly Rollers" will not secum to the problems others have with becomming addicted to gambling. I hope the churches who received the tithes from the winnings appropriatly apply GOD's gambling winnings to reaching out to recovering gambling addicts. Now that's justice!

[MONOPOLY35]

For that reason card counters learn and understand volatility. They learn to do it prrfectly because a single mistake can ruin everything. The casinos are se full

[spar2020]

There is two GODS in this world: The GOD of heaven and there is the GOD of the underworld. They are referring to Diabolos their Prince of Darkness. The GOD of greed, grief, fear, worry and doubt which pretty much makes up Gambling.

[johnnie1600]

So...can I double down my tithe in their church or....??? Unbelievable. Would these guys have a problem raking in the pot at a poker table, knowing some dude with a gambling addiction laid down his next months grocery food and mortgage payment to play...I wonder if that would stir their consciences a bit. Last I heard...gambling was a zero-sum game.

[Amhlair]

If this is remotely Christian, why does it begin with a pronouncement from a Mormon false prophet?

[22coatlin]

I cannot wait to see this movie!!!

[wesrides]

Great film. I enjoyed it thoroughly.

[thegreatedge]

Haven't you read the parable of the Unjust Servant?

[MONOPOLY35]

Card counting in itself is not a sin. The danger comes with the misuse finances, priorities, and focus/dilligence as opposed to serving God. It is not for everyone. The Bible frowns upon quick rich schemes, but it supports gaining your wealth slowly. Card counting is intelligent play where you are expected to win 1% in the long run. This method slowly but surely builds up your wealth. It's just as legitimate as another casino luring away the customers of their rival casino in legal ways.

[spar2020]

@MONOPOLY35 You can card count all you want and you only have a lousy almost 1% advantage over the casino..But don't forget the casinos Greatest weapon to combat card counters..and that is the negative variance. The variables can wipe out the micro edge that the card counter has in minutes. Variables offset the 1% advantage. It will KNOCK YOUR HEAD OFF and chances are you will give into your anger and lose big.

[skaterman4332]

I really have a difficult time agreeing with people on here. Where DOES IT SAY in the BIBLE that GAMBLING IS WRONG? I want the WORD G A M B L E in the same sentence. IF you can't find it then your point is invalid. If its the greed of money then that makes it sinful but if its for fun there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[IamtheBurceDickenson]

I've thought of doing just this as a way of hurting the casinos and making money. But I"m not that good at counting.

It's not gambleing if you can do it right.

And its not cheating it is just playing well.

[spar2020]

@IamtheBurceDickenson You fail to understand the mathematics. The casino has the ultimate edge and finances to out last any bet size you have to win. The rules are also in favor of the casino. Lets say you parlay yourbets,,you can win if it doesn't exceed the table max bet. They gotcha again. They have it all figured out. take $20,000 of your own money and lets see if you come out on top. I doubt it! they will deplete your account in 6 months or less betting schedule of $500 a day.

[spar2020]

@IamtheBurceDickenson Don't be a fool. Card Counting just gives you a 1% edge providing you play perfect basic strategy and you don't lose the count and everybody else plays perfect basic strategy. Subtract any of these and you lesson your lead. And you got the Ugly variables that will obliterate any edge you have over the casino. If you doubt me, Go out and lets see if your smarter than a mathematician.

[aeg623]

what makes you think blackjack is not work? 

[Shoots1978]

For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.

2 Thess 3:10-12 (ESV)

[aeg623]

For those claiming that what they're doing is wrong....please show me a verse in the Bible that is against gambling or blackjack. please do me that favor. :)

[storkba]

Glad this is bringing up so much discussion! Come see the movie at Arclight Hollywood on November 8th at 7:30! I think you will all be suprised. Love to have you there!

[christianvideo4free]

Is Gambling Really Wrong? YES!

[frankgallagher25]

On the other hand, thinking you're serving God by winning at blackjack is self-deception in its highest form.

[frankgallagher25]

Pretty crazy stuff. Card counting = cheating? Don't agree, though it's debateable. The only 'person' you're playing against is the house. The house has rigged the game already so they have an advantage. Are they 'cheating'? No, they're just making sure they win. Hmmm. Card counting is just a way to push the odds the other way. Deception is part of that because the house will throw you out if they think you're playing in such a way as to eliminate their advantage.

[Mystylplx]

@frankgallagher25

The house makes the rules since it's their house. If you don't want to play by their rules you don't have to play in their house. Basic stuff.

And you said it yourself, what they were doing was deception, which is cheating. If you are using deception to get an advantage that is the very definition of cheating. That's what the word means. Everything else is just rationalizing. Secretly teaming up to get an advantage is cheating in any card game ever invented. Or any game.

[frankgallagher25]

@Mystylplx Deception is cheating? Are you familiar with the game of poker? Secretly teaming up is aways cheating? Are you familiar with the games of Risk, Diplomacy, etc? But your argument fails completey when you look at one fact: If the House catches a card counting group, THEY DON'T MAKE THEM GIVE THE MONEY BACK. They have video of the operation, so it's not a lack of evidence. They have no legal grounds to do so, Because it's not cheating.

[Mystylplx]

@frankgallagher25

Deception is explicitly a part of the game of poker in the form of bluffing, but if two players secretly work together that is cheating. Teaming up in Risk is out in the open. It's not a secret--it's not deception. And they don't make them give the money back because they can't prove they were counting cards in the same way they could prove other forms of cheating.

Try looking up the word "cheat" in any dictionary to see what the word means. They are cheating.

[mscottfoster]

@Mystylplx You are allowed to team up in Blackjack. It isn't against the rules to ask for advice from the person next to you. Moreover, you are in no way obligated to divulge whether or not you are getting help/advice. All that matters is that you use information/data that could be available to everyone without the aid of a device (i.e. computer, paper, etc). That isn't a opinion. That is a legal fact.

[serenewldflwr]

From the casino view, it is not cheating but it is an advantage in play and since the days of 'old school casino' its been the job of the surveillance staff and table games staff to detect and deter (by whatever means permitted by the various gaming laws ;) ) the play when there is any advantage be it legit or actual cheating. I lived that career for 12 years.... and I must say that card counters and various teams were some of the best cat and mouse games ever.

[Mystylplx]

@serenewldflwr

It's cheating when they team up like that and have some people watching tables and secretly passing signals when the table is hot. All the while pretending not to know each other. At the very least it is certainly dishonest.

It's cheating in any card game when people secretly team up and no one knows, whether poker, or hearts or blackjack.

[Mystylplx]

I'll just repeat the last paragraph from my previous comment--

"It's cheating in any card game when people secretly team up and no one knows, whether poker, or hearts or blackjack."

This seems so basic to me that it's hard to understand how some can say it's not cheating. In any card game, or any game at all, it's cheating when people secretly team up to get an advantage over other players. Poker, blackjack, whatever--it is cheating.

[spliffburton]

Fuck this.

[voiceofelijah2012]

1  Timothy 3:1-5 declares the truth. These young men are wolves in sheeps clothing and have no knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[mscottfoster]

@voiceofelijah2012 I played on this team for 2 years and appear in the trailer above. I can see how this trailer would send alarms off for any bible-believing Christian (I was pretty upset when I first saw it). Now, I cannot speak for the entire team but I assure you that I have a knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Many of the members eventually left the team because of theological conflicts. However, they aren't the ones that most people usually cite.

[voiceofelijah2012]

@mscottfoster "Love not the world". I was one of the top producing porn directors in Hollywood, worked closely with Larry Flynt, my past work can be found in almost any rental dvd store or online, but when Christ saved me those years ago, I came OUT of the world and its perversion. I'm glad you left, but then again, where was that discernment before you went in?

[mscottfoster]

@voiceofelijah2012

Where was Abraham's discernment when he told Abimelech Sarah was his sister? Where was David's discernment before he slept with Bathsheba or killed Uriah? Where was Peter's discernment before he separated himself from the gentiles?

We all make bad decisions. Even patriarchs, kings, and apostles. It is easy to play Monday quarterback -- especially in the YouTube comment sections.

I'd encourage you to see the movie. I think you'll be very surprised.

[benjaminady]

@mscottfoster did you leave the team because of theological conflicts? I'd love to hear more about that. =)

[mscottfoster]

@benjaminady It was a mix of reasons--some of which I couldn't put into words at the time. I'll try to sum it up quickly. 1) I didn't have children when I started. Being away from my family was wearing on me. 2) I didn't realize how upsetting this would be to Christians. I didn't really want to lose my influence within the Christian circles over this issue. 3) I don't believe that blackjack is biblically "good work." I know how you like to debate but I cannot really hash this out in detail here.

[benjaminady]

@mscottfoster thanks for replying. You seem to be using the phrase "good work" in a technical sense--possibly referring to some body of literature? I've not run across the term in this sense before. I also struggled with something similar, even though I'm not a Christian--I struggled with the idea that the casino industry is preying on the weak, and that as part of the team I was actually in a sense promoting the casino industry. BJ is popular 'cause people know it can be beaten.

[BRIANEWEIS]

Because this is a game of skill, card counting is a part of this skill.

[ronbakerbmx]

card counting is the only way to play blackjack in my opinion. card counting isnt against any "rules." casinos just dont want you to have any advantage. and that advantage is slim, around 2% tops. you can play in the casinos for a long time if you're smart about it...you cant expect to play 1,000 dollars plus a hand and not expect to be kicked out.

[mscottfoster]

Card-counting is perfectly legal. It isn't even officially against the casino's rules. It is merely using your brain as you process data available to all players at the table to make an informed decision on the best playing move.

Casinos can kick card-counters out simply because it is private property and they can decline service to whoever they want.

[rickyt11]

I think you would call that Christ Consciousness, I myself like supper

consciousness :)

[Mystylplx]

So... WTF? They are Christians who cheat at cards and are hypocritical enough to actually claim it's something with integrity?

Oh, wait, yeah, typical Christians.

[colinbradleyjones]

@Mystylplx

no offense, but card counting isn't cheating.

[Mystylplx]

@colinbradleyjones

Yeah, that's why they have to dress up in different costumes to get past casino security. If it's against the rules then it's cheating.

[mscottfoster]

@Mystylplx 1) People rarely dressed up in customes on the team. It was just a few people, a few times. 2) Card-counting isn't against the rules. They simply don't want people to have an advantage on them. Check out the following court case to understand the various legalities: Uston v. Resorts International Hotel Inc., 445 A.2d 370 (N.J. 1982)

[Mystylplx]

@mscottfoster

I didn't say it was illegal. I said it was against the rules which it definitely is. You MIGHT have a point about it not being cheating if it was individuals just using their brains (no "equipment") but when they team up like that, secretly pass signals while pretending not to know each other that's DEFINITELY cheating.

[sonnyvarela]

I'm totally going to watch this! When does it come out?

[themissingpatient]

Best Feature Doc of the year. Like watching a Scorsese flick yet it is all real and the story unfolds right before your eyes. Thrilling, engaging and thought-provoking. Holy Rollers is a must see!

[fritchbeetle]

This documentary is fascinating.

[omelanr]

Great video and very thought provoking actions.