Did Jesus rise from the dead? ( Crossfire Session - 5 of 8 )

[Abz90L]

Shabir is full of knowledge

[zilexxx]

Bible tells us to question the spirits ,and how false prophets will be recognized .by the bad fruits ,and if you see what fruits come from islam like killing them selves and other in the name of Allah ,you see the truth right away ,Quran tells muslim to protect their religion ,and you can find it in alot of Suras ,why would religion if its truth needed to be defended i mean Qur'an contradicts logic .

[lovergal1984]

Religion sucks but its seems like mike is failing to understand shabir. I'm not a M or c but the Muslims argument sounds more reasonable.

[mkonofre]

&

Surah 29:46 Muslims are told by Allah, not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians, saying, "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is 1.

[mkonofre]

Mike, is on the defensive, as Shabir continues to interrupt him and does not allow Mike to express himself. In the Quran, Mohammed tells Muslims that if confused, to READ the BIBLE (which by the way, is the same now as it was in his time):

Surah 5:68 - Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law (Torah), the Gospel (Injeel), and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."

[Saji131]

Did Jesus rise from the death? Good question. Let me ask you a question. Did Prophet Mohammed saw angel Gabriel or Satan itself? How do you know that he saw Gabriel.No one was with him. Mohammed himself doubted that it was a satanic vision and some evil ginn had caused it. In the whole history of vision, nobody doubted God's angel as devil. Even if somebody had a doubt, then and there the Angel used to clarify and they used to walk out with heavenly peace. But Mohammed continued to doubt. Why?

[cerealkiller74]

Mike is so dense. He can't grasp Shabir's argument.

[nubbs]

what mike doesnt get is that his "other hill" is basically flat ground. his "other hill" is really nothing much at all to stand on. the fact that he "retreated" to his other hill -- the corinthian hill, lets call it -- is proof he's lost. and lost badly. which is why the moderator noted the disproportionate talking time. mike has nothing to say except "im on this hill" (where i am sulking)

[MrBigboss20011]

@juroguguhi cuz u `ll be asshole If u believe on something u can`t prove it

[imreadyyo26]

it seems those that are muslims always win these debates! WHY? they have to be helped by GOD. im just being honest

[XBAGREMX]

WHAT POUL SAW WAS UFO LIGHT....

[TheLaunchingPad]

If Jesus was alive in the slightest bit the women who wrapped his entire body from head to toe like a mummy which probably took over an hour, they would have felt movement. Dead means dead, just like Islam is dead because they serve a murderous God and can't see that the God of Jesus was not in any religion as he stated. He and his father are unknown to us, all we have is a story of Jesus and a movement. This means God was not their God or the Jews but an UNKNOWN GOD which only Jesus knew.

[TheFasfas123]

@TheLaunchingPad .....no use of simply saying lies about Islam...Learn something from the debate....and the GOD Jesus knew is Allah

[TheLaunchingPad]

The apostles wanted to believe so they made up the resurrection? Not something worth dying for. These bastards are absolutely trying to break down Christianity and the Jesus dude isn't even prepared. Jesus said he would destroy his body and build it back up. It's a pretty daring move to think you would slip out alive after getting crucified by Jews. He even gives up his spirit on the cross. What a scam, we should all offer our heads to Islam cuz they really want to kill us off.

[TheLaunchingPad]

Jesus died and disappeared from his grave. He was publicly killed, his friends wrapped his dead body and guards were posted to his tomb because he said he would rise again. Why can't you see the obvious? Furhtermore Thomas didn't even believe that Jesus was alive because he was so obviously murdered. There was a hunt for the body. C'mon.

[juroguguhi]

i got only 3 question for you pple...

WHY ARGUE? N WHY SUDDENLY MUSLIM COMES IN DISTURBING OTHERS?

DUDE, WHY DO WE NEED EVIDANCE?

DONT MAKE A FUZZ... PLIS

[TheTheman45]

this guy is getting eaten by shabir.

[ceria97]

wow....Shabir is AMAZING.......wow.....absolute­ly AMAZING.

[MrRobertGulabo]

wow.... Mike is seriously outgunned. Christians need a better spokesperson. Shamir is a pro debater. he's even using Mike's own materials against him! Shabir has all these other books on his table. Mike has one. ... kind of a reflection of how widely read both men are...

[MrRobertGulabo]

wow.... Mike is seriously outgunned. Christians need a better spokesperson. Shamir is a pro debater. he's even using Mike's own materials against him!

[laserwolf130]

Mike seems to be on the hill of ignorance ...trying his best to defend the nonsense of human sacrifice ....christians should evolve ..yes evolve their faith and distance themselves from this ancient god who would sacrifice a human ...I dont understand why christians cling to this ugliness ...were the Mayans and Aztecs right when they were sacrificing humans ? ..no of course not ...why are christians so proud of this appalling part of their faith ...

[paultheactor1]

He shouldn't wear dark socks with that skirt!

[geennaamgevonden]

"i'm on this other hill", "i'm on this other hill", "i'm on this other hill, SHUT UP! Well shabir is destroying your house on that "other hill" and you dont seem to care!

[geennaamgevonden]

Mike is thinking "DAMN when is this debate over?? i wanna go home!!! i'm tired of listening and secretly agreeing" hahaha

[takewhole]

Mike Licona is getting hurt out there. The stage is no place fro amateurs

[DiscoveringIslamOrg]

Shabir Ally is a master of the art of debating and reasoning.

[f57mich]

It wouldnt make any difference whether it was 300 years later the Talmud was written, because what you are talking about is that it is ONLY IN OUR AGE that we HAVE EKGS/EEGS to PROVE someone being DEAD. So this is a ridiculous and "grabbing-at-straws" argument that makes no sense, because if 300 years after christ there was no way to tell if someone was really dead except to go back 3 days later and check them, to say that, Jesus' time was 300 years BEFORE this! Like they had EKGS earlier YET?

[Lirilu11]

Paper does not blush!

From the fact that every religion has it's own Holy Scripture, it's own scholars, studies and interpretations and they partially or completely contradict each other it becomes clear that they all have no credibility and authority. They are all based on arbitrariness!

[isalhia]

I think its amazing how the Muslim was correcting the Christine at 15:00 of this video about his Bible.

[robysnehapuram]

@isalhia SHABIR ALI LOST TO MIKE, SHABIR IS NOT A LOGICAL THINKER

[isalhia]

@robysnehapuram - OK!!! if that makes you feel better.

[robysnehapuram]

@isalhia whoever has brain woulf feel like that, Shabir ali is adamnat

[isalhia]

@robysnehapuram - Ok!!! I'm glad that thinking that makes you feel better.

[3dsstudio]

Shabbir Ali should have used the Approach of Dr Naik and Ahmad deedat

for the Debate.

[jazzbummer]

All you have to do is ask Jesus to come into your heart and you will know He raised from the dead. You won't know if you do not desire truth.

[brooklynbeb390]

I honestly just don't see the point in this debate. The burdon of proof is on the Christians and whether Jesus died and was raised or not is 1: Impossible to prove and is 2: irrelevant to the Muslim because we believe in the Qur'an not because the Bible has been proven innacurate and unreliable (which all honest scholars would agree that it has) but becasue the Qur'an itself has proven to be miraculous and therefore of God himself.

[jazzbummer]

@brooklynbeb390 The Bible has not been proven innacurate. More evidence for it than anything else. The Qur'an is just "another" book that satan used to decieve mankind from Jesus.

[SAFAR32]

muslim believe in jesus and mary more than you do....and not just jesus we believe in mose ,jacob,abraham,jonah,josef, zakaria,mary.etc....its you who speaks like satan ....you have hate on your heart like the devil ...you are curst...sick man ...islam beleive in all god's prophets ...that mean the quran its not satan book ...quran speak more about mary and jesus than the bible ...ok satan!!

[jazzbummer]

I don't believe in Mary like I trust in Jesus. I know she is just the mother of Jesus but she needed a Savior just like everyone else. Sorry to tell you but I am not satan. If I was I wouldn't not praise the name Jesus Christ who is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I don't have hate in my heart but peace like Paul who was in prison as he wrote Philippians 4:8-9. Quran is satans book because its not the true Gospel. Its only "another" Gosple. You can talk to Jesus, not any other "prophet".

[SAFAR32]

Satan!!! Sounds theatrical:) If Jesus (pbuh) is the one you are worshipping.. who did people worship before Jesus was born? How about after he supposedly died who was controlling the world? Maybe George Bush after all he said he was sent by God (astaghfirallah)......look what hes done to innocent people! Its just not logical I'm sorry but may god give you hideya you veered from the straight path may good help you! ps: the quran speakes more about jesus and mary than bible..oops.

[jazzbummer]

Why do yo ukeep bringing Mary up? Jesus is God in the flesh.

[Dominick7]

People worshiped the God who reveals Himself to mankind via the Old Testament, which is ALSO triunne. You have the Father clearly stated as God all through out the OT, you have the Spirit hovering over the waters in Genesis at creation, the Holy Spirit who is not the Father, but is God, who indwells believers, and is conscious. You have THE Angel of the Lord who is stated to be God, that is God by nature, but is not the Father nor the Spirit. Same in the NT.

[Dominick7]

So before the cross they looked forward to the cross, after the cross we look back at the cross. All are saved by the same cross, before the cross Jesus is known as The Angel of the Lord (not AN angel or A messenger, but THE messenger THE Word/Message from God to man as you see in Genesis Him being the Word also in John).

[oombuddah]

lol the angel of the Lord is not "Divine Jesus" lol

muslim-responses . com/Angel_of_the_Lord/Angel_of­_the_Lord_

[Dominick7]

Wait.. do you actually think that's a good response?? There's a difference between AN angel of the Lord and THE Angel of the Lord based in the Hebrew and obvious context. WHICH version does that person get Math 1:18-20 saying THE angel of the Lord?? NONE of the version I checked say that it says AN angel of the Lord just like the second passage he quotes. The original language and context indicates when divine attributes are ascribed to this messenger of the Lord, and its distinguished by THE.

[Dominick7]

Notice there is NO bibliography or sources listed for the version and it doesnt account for varying positions on interpretations.. NOT surprising. AN angel of the lord implies that there are more than one angel, THE Angel of the Lord implies there is one unique messenger of God to mankind. The second argument fails because while that may have been a particular interpretation of SOME jews, it wasn't the interpretation or principle found by the Jews who were interacting with God in the text.

[Dominick7]

WHERE IN THE TEXT do you get any idea that an agent is regarded as the person themselves? In revelations you have John bowing down to worship AN angel and the angel rebukes John saying he is a mere created being and only God alone deserves worship. Same with the apostles, and same with Jesus. This idea is foreign to the NT, it's also foreign to the OT. If you understood what the Trinity actually entailed you wouldnt fall for this sophistry or the next argument regarding Jehovah in Gen 16.

[Dominick7]

The Trinity when defined is a TriUnity, that is not tritheism the idea that there are three persons AND three essenses/natures, its not radical unity where there is only one person and one nature. Rather TriUNity means that there are three persons/cognative egos who eternally share the same 1 divine nature. Simply put, its 1 God/1 WHAT and 3persons/3 WHOS. Because What isnt the same thing as who there is no contradiction. If it said there was 1 what AND 3 whats, or 1 who AND 3 whos=contradiction

[Dominick7]

BUT it doesnt say that, it says there is 1 WHAT (nature) and 3 WHOS (persons). So when Jesus/The Angel of the Lord speaks of Jehovah or the Lord, He could in context either be talking about the 1 WHAT/1 nature, the Father and the Spirit shares OR God the Father from whom the Son and Spirit eternally proceeds from. So you have 3 persons that share the same 1 nature. With Christ u have 1 of those persons who not only shares 1 divine nature w the Father and Spirit but an ADDITIONAL nature (human).

[Dominick7]

Jesus is 1 WHO/person with 2 distinct WHATS/natures, a divine nature and a human nature that cannot be blurred or separated from the person of Christ. So when Jesus either in pre carnate form as in the form of a human or angel He from that nature and perspective can speak of the Father as His God and it not be a contradiction. Apart from this the OT saints would commit blasphemy for worshiping or ascribing divinity 2 created things..it goes against the very 1st commandment to not worship idols.

[Dominick7]

So not matter which way you go THE Angel of the Lord is distinct from AN angel of the Lord, THE Angel of the Lord is seen as+is distinctly as God+He receives worship, AN angel always rightly rejects worship towards themselves AS IF they were God wen they are not, you don't find that principle in the Biblical text in context with how the saints or angels reacted, but also you'd have the 1st commandment be meaningless if you CAN treat/consider a created agent as IF they were the person their self.

[Dominick7]

Epic FAIL. Sam Shimoun is correct and the Mulism position which doesn't seem to have a problem affirming a view that goes AGAINST ALL reason and ALL evidence is irrational, baseless, and unfounded.

[Dominick7]

Shamoun even. He's a good guy btw and doesn't deserve the threats of desperation and slander emotional Muslims try to level at him. The typical Muslim reaction to the truth, in particular the truth about God/Christ is very telling.

[Dominick7]

After the cross after all the messianic prophecies are given as to who this messiah must be (He is a descendant of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, and must die prior to the destruction of the temple as seen in Daniel), we see His name is Joshua/Yeshua in Hebrew/or Jesus in greek.

[xiaahmad]

i heard according to jews person is not literally dead for three days

[jazzbummer]

@xiaahmad Thats true.

[xiaahmad]

@jazzbummer

so was not even that means

[jazzbummer]

@xiaahmad The Holy Bible reveals that Jesus is alive today. The evidence is the follow-up on that fact. If He is alive, then you should be able to speak to Him right now. He will only respond if you desire it. John 14:6 Now you have the key to knowing truth.

[xiaahmad]

Muslims already believe tha he is alive

also when Jesus himself prayed to GOD ask for his help why should we ask Jesus

when he himself asked from some one

[jazzbummer]

They don't believe He died on the cross. Matthew 28 Jesus says (after His death and His resurrection)that all authority has been given unto Him.

[xiaahmad]

Yes we dont believe he died the death of cursed

even that shows that Authority was GIVEN to him so that prove that he is not the source of authority

[jazzbummer]

Read Philippians 2 and Revelation 1. Jesus is revealed who He is in Philippians and He says who He is in Revelation 1.

[xiaahmad]

book of revelation was a dream

and consider most unauthentic book of bible

[jazzbummer]

Like people considered the earth was once flat. Even if Revelation was just a "dream", it doesn't destroy the fact of who Jesus clamied to be.

[Dominick7]

Yes it doesn't matter the SOURCE of the fact, but whether its a fact in itself is the question. I believe the double helix DNA concept came from an image or vision of a snake biting its own tail.

[Dominick7]

Thats a genetic fallacy. What you're saying is false.

[followerofjesus1984]

@xiaahmad in saying this im gonna show u how ur saying rev is a dream, actually shot the quran and islam as a token of a dream, cause an angel came to him, and we christians know satan can disguise himself as angel or blinding light, and funny thr muhammadine revelations happen when he was in a cave all alone

[xiaahmad]

@followerofjesus1984

like the way it disguised for Paul?

[followerofjesus1984]

@xiaahmad what is ur point, make it clear

[xiaahmad]

@followerofjesus1984

Paul also just saw a light which he considered jesus

[followerofjesus1984]

@xiaahmad ok isee, u have missed my point, i was saying that this line of thought is essentially flawed, as when u say some wrote something based on a vision or r whatever, its inadequte as it shots hoes in ur own faith, as ur prophets revelations came in a simalar method of a vision, yes and paul was verified in some level by witnesses and by the disciples and a follow who was called by a vision to heal pauls blindness , so we have verious witness to it

[xiaahmad]

@followerofjesus1984

I think you havnt read about the history of book of revelations and how it made into bible Martin luther put it in the appendices of his bible.

and even in revelation jesus himself has a GOD

[followerofjesus1984]

@xiaahmad u say even in revelation he has a God, ut where do u pull this from

[Dominick7]

It was a death He chose to die and as the judge of the universe the judge has the right 2decide to make the payment for the sins of the guilty. He Himself was not guilty of death, but He chose in mercy to pay the debt of suffering+death for all mankind who does deserve it. How is the fact that the Son is different+under the Father by PERSON the same as saying He is under the Father by NATURE? IE how does Jesus having a different ROLE than the Father mean He isnt identical 2the Father via NATURE?

[Dominick7]

Jesus prayed to God the Father, not to Himself, or someone else. Jesus is God the Son, different from the Father and Spirit who each are distinct persons (identities/conscious egos), but eternally share the same one divine eternal nature. The Trinity SHOULD be expected since we're taking about an eternal necessary and infinite being and we are just finite. IE it's not contradictory but unique, and goes beyond a humans ability to fully comprehend.

[Dominick7]

The point is that all historical scholarship says Jesus died, and that its the most well attested to fact in history. The Romans were expert killers, and knew how to do their jobs. Pilate made extra sure He was dead. The earliest strata SAYS He died. All evidence says He died.

[oombuddah]

If all evidence says he dies, it doesn't prove he died. Especially when the earliest account which describes the event of his death, especially in the light of the physiological facts makes you doubt that he did die.

[Dominick7]

To deny the evidence is to go against reason. To make a judgment in light of and on the basis of solid evidence is to follow reason. The muslim position that Jesus didn't die goes against evidence, therefore the position is anti rational and not worthy of being believed. If all evidence solidly point

[Dominick7]

Out that He died, then it's a historical fact that He died. NOTHING controverts the evidence that ALL says He died. The earliest account does NOT make me doubt that He died. You have to plug your ears to everything I and the Christian and historical position is to say that.

[crosswayokc]

Shabir is really smart, but he has to be in order to make Islam stand a chance in a debate. It kinda sounds good, but it is easy for a Christian, even if he isn't really sharp, to formally win a debate with Shabir. In the end, Shabir is still saddled with this theory that Jesus didn't really die but just looked that way. This is why William Lane Craig will always be Shabir's secret hero. Actually, I think Shabir just may become a Christian seeing how much he looks up to Craig.

[ramlb258]

I think Mike was the whole time on the other Hill, cause he tied up himself their

[veritaslogos]

im not sure why ppl give shabir the time of day, he's just not very formidable

[ArabianLover81]

You obviously haven't seen shabir's second debate with Mike Licona on Faith Under Fire Show titlled : Who was Jesus, Divine or Prophet? " Shabir nailed Licona real bad, its available on youtube, shabir is amazing and unstoppable

[veritaslogos]

well actually i have and while i think mike faultered a bit and didn't make the best of his oppurtunity, i hardly think shabir is either amazing and definately not "unstoppable". i think u guys follow way to hard after everything this guy says because he's one of ur very few seemingly formidable voices. nevertheless the facts of the matter remain, something shabir nor anyone can dispute, and shabir will always be arguin from a false belief system to begin with.

[momo261086]

YEH, SHABIR IS THE MAN

[robysnehapuram]

@momo261086 SHABIR ALI LOST TO MIKE, SHABIR  IS NOT A LOGICAL THINKER

[BassP86]

"Shabir nailed Licona real bad, its available on youtube, shabir is amazing and unstoppable" - Shabir's logic is dependent on the belief that man is NOT created in the image of God. Therefore I cordially and respectfully invite you to consider the following. "Insha'Allah" means "if God is willing" or "if God will's it". I'm sure you agree. Therefore if God has the freedom to do what he wills, then what is keeping him from creating man in his image?

[Sweetkittenpie]

I disagree, and I'm not even a Muslim. He does a very good job making cases in debates that are stacked against his position.

[YasirTV]

Listen to what their saying. Mike is admitting the bible is unreliable and agreeing with Shabir and stateting the argument.

Shabir is not focusing on Mikes argument because its NOT a christian argument. Shabir answered it and focused on the Christian evidence.

By Mike avoiding the gospels and staying on that hill, and from what he said. Hes admitting by inadvertently the gospels is unreliable.

[robysnehapuram]

@YasirTV SHABIR ALI LOST TO MIKE, SHABIR IS NOT A LOGICAL THINKER

[HaecceitasQuidditas]

@YasirTV

He's only arguing that his case for the resurrection works EVEN IF the Gospels are unreliable. This isn't the same as saying that they actually are unreliable.

[eddipower]

ja ja ja hæ

[YayanBenBenjamin]

They spared jesus in the side of the ribs to ensure that he was dead.

[cecerra]

shabir is right

[tolerancelastic]

Mike didnt get Shabir's point. If someone just says "jesus died on the cross" and leaves it at that, then everyone will take that. BUT the problem arises when someone claims that jesus also came back to life. IN THAT CASE, it is important to analyze the DETAILS of the crucifixion event, which is found in the gospels. Shabir has done just that. He has shown that the details are problematic & dont fit in & have been evolved over time for that very reason. Mike's "earliest proof" is irrelevant here

[ranger1360]

stop praising idols was one of the messages of moses and jesus. but now christians are doing the exact thing the pagen was, that was praising men and idols. jesus has become a man god. when he never himself claimed to be god. and the name alla is in the old and new testament. if you look at the verses that were changed by men. hebrew and arabic are sister lingo.

[S33344]

Sahbir is just doing textual critisism to the Gospels,instead Mike is giving him extra-biblical historical,and medical arguments. All Shabir does is just attack the gospels, but does not show any critisism against Mikes argumets,he is just obsesed wit hthe Gospels. Besides,Saint paul, is not a heretic as you muslims claim, he talked to the original deciples of Jesus,therefore his testimony is historically trustworthy.Unlike the Quran's biography of Jesus written 600yrs after,by a stranger.

[LothairLorraine]

Shabir is using the hisotical-critical analysis to evaluate the Bible, but would never use such a method to evaluate the Quran.

[ghettofight]

Many people did ie non muslims but when they did they become muslims at the end