So which kind of science do you need to belief. Trust your own eyes, trust your experiences, or do you need a scientific research by phone, by guinea pigs or rats like done in the old fashion academic world? Welcome to 2010 ! The wings of an bumblebee has an area of only 0,7cm2 Weight – 1,2 g After all scientific laws and research - totally impossible for a insect to fly. The bumblebee don’t know this limiting beliefs – this is why the bumblebee is flying..
@TheKongruent One more time because you have yet to answer my request. I'm not talking about a "telephone survey." What is the SOURCE of you information you teach? What should I read to LEARN? Just saying you saw it is NOT scientific proof of your claim. You AND you eyes would be thrown out of court! AND you ARE using it on people. Show me the OBJECTIVE evidence that supports your claim. Last chance!
You really have no clue about what Eye Accessing cues in NLP is a part of. After 20 years practicing, I never have met a single person where there was any doubt
about there Eye movements. After some month of training, even you will see the split-second of eye-movement, before the eyes are wondering somewhere else. All our students are able to learn this after some training and you can start your empirical studies after learning the basic stuff first. Doubt and skepticism has also a structure…
@TheKongruent After 20 years of study, perhaps you can point me to the "scientific research" you use for the basis of your training. To date all I get from anyone on this topic is anecdotal. "I saw it therefore it is." After 30+ yrs in this field I find NO peer reviewed evidence that links eye movement and deception. Grinder and Bandler themselves have repeatedly deny such a link. I repeat my request - show me the science!
I dont expect you to understand. Your like the guys that insisted the world was flat. They hate hearing that something they've known their whole life could be different from what they comprehended.
Im amazed your whole argument is a 13 year old document by two unknown teachers from the UK. Wooh hooh! Im sure we havent learned anything about the brain in that long.
Watch out while you sail! I'd hate for you to fall off the edge of the world.
Let's see, what I don't understand. A scientific published article by Dr. Aldert Vrij, currently one of the most PROLIFIC scientists researching and publishing (in peer reviewed scientific journals I might add) in the field of spotting deception and the science of interrogation. (New textbook with APA citations in it just published). Refutes myth in his text also.
BTW send me YOUR scientific support (peer reviewed) that PROVES the validity of eye movement.
i do agree. i was accused of plagiarism of an a* english essay and i knew the teacher was in the wrong, but i remember looking down to the right, up to the left and into her eyes and slightly to the left also. i was also trying to contain my fury tho.
I do agree that it does not work 100% of the time.
For example, i hear that as the person keeps their eyes on you, it does not mean they are telling the truth, but they are trying to see if you believed their lies or not.
Good point about maintaining eye contact to watch the reaction of the lie target. Eye contact or lack therefore is simply not a reliable signs of honesty OR deception. Not only from one person to another but is eye contact changes seen while talking to one individual is not reliable.
And a lot of folks say they have seen Big Foot, too! (I'm not making that as an insulting remark. I'm using it in the scientific sense. See it as a question of logic). What was your N group, error rate, your "blinds", etc.
Start here and also read the bib. Aldert Vrij, Shara Lochun,"Neuro-Linguistic Programming and the Police: Worthwhile or Not?", Journal of Police and Criminal Psychology, Vol. 12, No. 1, 1997, pp. 25 - 31.
Eye cues DO NOT work. When engaging the subject to remember complex emotional events or complex mental processing the eye behavior is NOT consistent with recall or construct.
Here's my challenge... show me the EMPIRICAL evidence that supports eye movement is consistent when using recall or construct mental activity. After 20+ plus of tracking this, I have not found it yet.
@TheLieGuy Just wanted to ask you.Can you not spot a lie by asking specific questions and looking at the eye patterns to see if it is recalled information or it's being constructed?
No you can not. The patterns even change with one individual and even the type of question and form of information requested will cause different results.
Lets clarify what they're saying. IF they say eye movement (right or left) is a sign of deception then they're dead wrong. Bandler & Grinder (authors of NLP) state when recalling people can show a construct eye cue. The EMPIRICAL evidence to support eye movement for deception does NOT exist!
Aldert Vrij, Shara Lochun,"Neuro-Linguistic Programming and the Police: Worthwhile or Not?", Journal of Police and Criminal Psychology, Vol. 12, No. 1, 1997, pp. 25 - 31.
Correct. You can NOT make an assessment of deception (or honesty either) solely on any one indicator - voice, body and especially the eyes. Deception is best read in clusters of identified deception cues. Eye contact and eye behavior however have been proven to be of little or no value in spotting deception. It can reveal stress but not all stress means deception.
i do agree however when you say....." There's NO connection between ANY eye direction movement and honesty / deception." before you say you do have scientific studies to disprove this, i feel that the wrong question is being answered. as i said in my previous post, it is a guide to which part of the brain a person is going to, and even that can be misenterpreted, unless relevant calibration questions are asked, to establish whether or not somebody is " normally organised" or "reverse organised"
I'm not sure why people don't get this. There is no correlation between eye movement and the function of the brain. Right or left handed, etc. Tell me where such evidence in empirical form exists. Everyone "says" it works but NOBODY has provided empirical proof. HOWEVER, there IS empirical proof that says it does not.
You are certainly welcome to disagree. But I have not had one person yet to send me any scientific information that supports the notion that watching the movement of the eyes indicates a truthful or deceptive response. I'm told I'm wrong after I HAVE provided published evidence.
Beats the heck out of me. TONS of agencies teach this myth as gospel and it is NOT supported by any empirical evidence. Studies however have refuted the theory. They all have been told it doesn't work but still cling to the myth.
Eye accessing cues are not meant to be used as a tell tale sign of lies. They are meant to be a "second or third opinion" if someone is lying or not. There should be many other cues of discomfort from lying that will back up eye cues before you consider someone of lying.
Also it is not set in stone that construction is right, and recall is left, people look different ways, you have to first read which way they look when theyre remembering something or constructing an image.
I agree that eye accessing cues are not to be used as a telltale sign of deception. The movements are neither right or wrong. They were supposed to be communication tools only. Eye contact and eye movement are TOTALLY unreliable tools to evaluate a truthful or deceptive person. NLP was designed as a tool for communication and therapy not a diagnostic tool.
Asside of reading a lie or not, it should be noted, that there is a pattern with people, when people construct something in their brain, they look the opposite way as when they remember something, THIS DOESNT HAPPEN EVERYTIME!
Any kind of distraction could effect eye cues. It is true, you shoul never use eye cues, to spot a lie, ON THEIR OWN. But dont discredit the recall and construction eye movements, THEY EXIST.
Unfortunately, NO scientific support 4 consistency between eye movement & construct or recall function - even on an individual basis. That's the problem - the "assumption" of a correlation between the two.
See Vrij and follow his bib sources. Aldert Vrij, Shara Lochun, (1997) "Neuro-Linguistic Programming and the Police: Worthwhile or Not?", Journal of Police and Criminal Psychology, Vol. 12, No. 1,pp. 25 - 31. That's just ONE study refuting the concept.
lets believe the guy that wont even show his face.
You just told people that you heard from other people about something. Nothing was prooven with actual research, just he saids and she saids, your just as reliable as any other video on youtube.
If you will listen, I AM quoting PUBLISHED SCIENTIFIC studies by the well known researchers on the issue. In court under Supreme Court guidelines of what constitutes "scientific evidence" and "expert testimony" the criteria requires "peer-reviewed" "published" scientific research. The PUBLISHED SCIENTIFIC data shows absolutely NO CORRELATION, base line or not between eye movement and recall vs deception.
About not showing my face ... my face is all over my channel of videos.
I know that's what we are told BUT, there is NO scientific support (after very extensive testing and numerous published studies) there is ABSOLUTELY NO LINK between eye movement and recall and eye movement and mental construct behavior. Eye movement as as way of spotting deception is a terrible myth.
All these comments about deception and eye movement are based on the false assumption that the eyes move a specific direction during mental recall or construct activity.
when a person looks to the up and left he/she is tryin to find a memory recall when the person looks up he/she tends to think of another way the story shud go or (fancying the story)
Nick. This theory is based on the erroneous assumption that the eyes will always go one direction when lying and the other direction when truthful. Research has PROVED that eye movement is inconsistent. People will shown recall function when lying and creation movement when in fact remembering. There's NO connection between ANY eye direction movement and honesty / deception.
You're right: I tested those NLP eye movement theories on my son and, when asked to remember factual memories, his eyes went either left or right quite inconsistently. They're quack theories - unfortunately popular because they simplify reality and so make people comfortable.
You do realize that the police in the UK and the US both use a 12 step method when questioning a suspect and part of that 12 step method DOES involve eye movement. So whether or not it is true is irrelevant, the truth is that it IS being used at a higher rate than you might expect.
Yep. It is a VERY prevalent myth in law enforcement circles in the US and UK. Unfortunately, based on the science, those officers are making some VERY serious misdiagnosis of their subject's honesty. No matter how many times they say "it works," the empirical evidence does not support their conclusions. That means they are missing as many lies as the ones they catch AND they are labeling some truths as lies. Hard myth to break, too!
Sorry! Nice try. Been tested! Doesn't work. New incident or not. Creative lie telling involves both hemispheres of the brain AND recall and construct functions. Quoting Bandler and Grider for one source.. "some people reconstruct their memories." 60+ studies do NOT support the conclusion of eye movement and deception.
Ok BUT! If the incident just happened, and the person had no time to reconstruct the incident before being questioned, eye movement CAN be informative. Like when your kids get in a fight and you break it up and ask who started it. Or if you ask questions they didn't expect or prepare for.
When people tell stories they leave out details, asking about those details can reveal if a person is lying.
TheKongruent 1 year ago
@TheKongruent One more time because you have yet to answer my request. I'm not talking about a "telephone survey." What is the SOURCE of you information you teach? What should I read to LEARN? Just saying you saw it is NOT scientific proof of your claim. You AND you eyes would be thrown out of court! AND you ARE using it on people. Show me the OBJECTIVE evidence that supports your claim. Last chance!
TheLieGuy 1 year ago 4
You really have no clue about what Eye Accessing cues in NLP is a part of. After 20 years practicing, I never have met a single person where there was any doubt
about there Eye movements. After some month of training, even you will see the split-second of eye-movement, before the eyes are wondering somewhere else. All our students are able to learn this after some training and you can start your empirical studies after learning the basic stuff first. Doubt and skepticism has also a structure…
TheKongruent 1 year ago
@TheKongruent After 20 years of study, perhaps you can point me to the "scientific research" you use for the basis of your training. To date all I get from anyone on this topic is anecdotal. "I saw it therefore it is." After 30+ yrs in this field I find NO peer reviewed evidence that links eye movement and deception. Grinder and Bandler themselves have repeatedly deny such a link. I repeat my request - show me the science!
TheLieGuy 1 year ago
I dont expect you to understand. Your like the guys that insisted the world was flat. They hate hearing that something they've known their whole life could be different from what they comprehended.
Im amazed your whole argument is a 13 year old document by two unknown teachers from the UK. Wooh hooh! Im sure we havent learned anything about the brain in that long.
Watch out while you sail! I'd hate for you to fall off the edge of the world.
sdrawkcabnipyt 1 year ago
@sdrawkcabnipyt @sdrawkcabnipyt
Let's see, what I don't understand. A scientific published article by Dr. Aldert Vrij, currently one of the most PROLIFIC scientists researching and publishing (in peer reviewed scientific journals I might add) in the field of spotting deception and the science of interrogation. (New textbook with APA citations in it just published). Refutes myth in his text also.
BTW send me YOUR scientific support (peer reviewed) that PROVES the validity of eye movement.
TheLieGuy 1 year ago 2
the best way to spot the lie is to just ask them if their lieing & their react is a dead give away!!!! body language is the key
HappyBirthdaySANTA 1 year ago
this is inaccurate/false/no basis...it's a myth and a myth is all it is...
mycrappylife 2 years ago
i do agree. i was accused of plagiarism of an a* english essay and i knew the teacher was in the wrong, but i remember looking down to the right, up to the left and into her eyes and slightly to the left also. i was also trying to contain my fury tho.
thefactandthefiction 2 years ago
I do agree that it does not work 100% of the time.
For example, i hear that as the person keeps their eyes on you, it does not mean they are telling the truth, but they are trying to see if you believed their lies or not.
~Lie to me , TV show.
JennylovesMJ 2 years ago
Good point about maintaining eye contact to watch the reaction of the lie target. Eye contact or lack therefore is simply not a reliable signs of honesty OR deception. Not only from one person to another but is eye contact changes seen while talking to one individual is not reliable.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
show me an actuall study, dont tell me theres been a study. You just keep telling me to believe while ive seen much different results myself
sdrawkcabnipyt 2 years ago
And a lot of folks say they have seen Big Foot, too! (I'm not making that as an insulting remark. I'm using it in the scientific sense. See it as a question of logic). What was your N group, error rate, your "blinds", etc.
Start here and also read the bib. Aldert Vrij, Shara Lochun,"Neuro-Linguistic Programming and the Police: Worthwhile or Not?", Journal of Police and Criminal Psychology, Vol. 12, No. 1, 1997, pp. 25 - 31.
Now send me YOUR empirical source info.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
Eye cues DO NOT work. When engaging the subject to remember complex emotional events or complex mental processing the eye behavior is NOT consistent with recall or construct.
Here's my challenge... show me the EMPIRICAL evidence that supports eye movement is consistent when using recall or construct mental activity. After 20+ plus of tracking this, I have not found it yet.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
@TheLieGuy Just wanted to ask you.Can you not spot a lie by asking specific questions and looking at the eye patterns to see if it is recalled information or it's being constructed?
psycologist 2 years ago
No you can not. The patterns even change with one individual and even the type of question and form of information requested will cause different results.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
so all the NLP practitioners who tried this and found it worked, are actually lying?
could you direct me to the SCIENTIFIC proof it does not correlate? i'd like to read this study, please. I could not find it in university..
so.. what dó the eyes say and how do they say it?
wubs23 2 years ago
Lets clarify what they're saying. IF they say eye movement (right or left) is a sign of deception then they're dead wrong. Bandler & Grinder (authors of NLP) state when recalling people can show a construct eye cue. The EMPIRICAL evidence to support eye movement for deception does NOT exist!
Aldert Vrij, Shara Lochun,"Neuro-Linguistic Programming and the Police: Worthwhile or Not?", Journal of Police and Criminal Psychology, Vol. 12, No. 1, 1997, pp. 25 - 31.
Now show me your research, pls.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
Correct. You can NOT make an assessment of deception (or honesty either) solely on any one indicator - voice, body and especially the eyes. Deception is best read in clusters of identified deception cues. Eye contact and eye behavior however have been proven to be of little or no value in spotting deception. It can reveal stress but not all stress means deception.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
i do agree however when you say....." There's NO connection between ANY eye direction movement and honesty / deception." before you say you do have scientific studies to disprove this, i feel that the wrong question is being answered. as i said in my previous post, it is a guide to which part of the brain a person is going to, and even that can be misenterpreted, unless relevant calibration questions are asked, to establish whether or not somebody is " normally organised" or "reverse organised"
TheMeta1 2 years ago
I'm not sure why people don't get this. There is no correlation between eye movement and the function of the brain. Right or left handed, etc. Tell me where such evidence in empirical form exists. Everyone "says" it works but NOBODY has provided empirical proof. HOWEVER, there IS empirical proof that says it does not.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
i disagree
TheMeta1 2 years ago
You are certainly welcome to disagree. But I have not had one person yet to send me any scientific information that supports the notion that watching the movement of the eyes indicates a truthful or deceptive response. I'm told I'm wrong after I HAVE provided published evidence.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
if it is openly known information why would this be taught and used by such departments as the FBI?
nickrohn93 2 years ago
Beats the heck out of me. TONS of agencies teach this myth as gospel and it is NOT supported by any empirical evidence. Studies however have refuted the theory. They all have been told it doesn't work but still cling to the myth.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
Eye accessing cues are not meant to be used as a tell tale sign of lies. They are meant to be a "second or third opinion" if someone is lying or not. There should be many other cues of discomfort from lying that will back up eye cues before you consider someone of lying.
Also it is not set in stone that construction is right, and recall is left, people look different ways, you have to first read which way they look when theyre remembering something or constructing an image.
sdrawkcabnipyt 2 years ago
I agree that eye accessing cues are not to be used as a telltale sign of deception. The movements are neither right or wrong. They were supposed to be communication tools only. Eye contact and eye movement are TOTALLY unreliable tools to evaluate a truthful or deceptive person. NLP was designed as a tool for communication and therapy not a diagnostic tool.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
Asside of reading a lie or not, it should be noted, that there is a pattern with people, when people construct something in their brain, they look the opposite way as when they remember something, THIS DOESNT HAPPEN EVERYTIME!
Any kind of distraction could effect eye cues. It is true, you shoul never use eye cues, to spot a lie, ON THEIR OWN. But dont discredit the recall and construction eye movements, THEY EXIST.
sdrawkcabnipyt 2 years ago
Unfortunately, NO scientific support 4 consistency between eye movement & construct or recall function - even on an individual basis. That's the problem - the "assumption" of a correlation between the two.
See Vrij and follow his bib sources. Aldert Vrij, Shara Lochun, (1997) "Neuro-Linguistic Programming and the Police: Worthwhile or Not?", Journal of Police and Criminal Psychology, Vol. 12, No. 1,pp. 25 - 31. That's just ONE study refuting the concept.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
lets believe the guy that wont even show his face.
You just told people that you heard from other people about something. Nothing was prooven with actual research, just he saids and she saids, your just as reliable as any other video on youtube.
sdrawkcabnipyt 2 years ago
If you will listen, I AM quoting PUBLISHED SCIENTIFIC studies by the well known researchers on the issue. In court under Supreme Court guidelines of what constitutes "scientific evidence" and "expert testimony" the criteria requires "peer-reviewed" "published" scientific research. The PUBLISHED SCIENTIFIC data shows absolutely NO CORRELATION, base line or not between eye movement and recall vs deception.
About not showing my face ... my face is all over my channel of videos.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
I know that's what we are told BUT, there is NO scientific support (after very extensive testing and numerous published studies) there is ABSOLUTELY NO LINK between eye movement and recall and eye movement and mental construct behavior. Eye movement as as way of spotting deception is a terrible myth.
All these comments about deception and eye movement are based on the false assumption that the eyes move a specific direction during mental recall or construct activity.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
when a person looks to the up and left he/she is tryin to find a memory recall when the person looks up he/she tends to think of another way the story shud go or (fancying the story)
shuriken198 2 years ago
i think it is true the way people move their eyes but unreliable because if someone knows this they can obviously turn their head the other way.
NickYank 2 years ago
Nick. This theory is based on the erroneous assumption that the eyes will always go one direction when lying and the other direction when truthful. Research has PROVED that eye movement is inconsistent. People will shown recall function when lying and creation movement when in fact remembering. There's NO connection between ANY eye direction movement and honesty / deception.
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
You're right: I tested those NLP eye movement theories on my son and, when asked to remember factual memories, his eyes went either left or right quite inconsistently. They're quack theories - unfortunately popular because they simplify reality and so make people comfortable.
PennySmart 2 years ago
You do realize that the police in the UK and the US both use a 12 step method when questioning a suspect and part of that 12 step method DOES involve eye movement. So whether or not it is true is irrelevant, the truth is that it IS being used at a higher rate than you might expect.
D15H 2 years ago
Yep. It is a VERY prevalent myth in law enforcement circles in the US and UK. Unfortunately, based on the science, those officers are making some VERY serious misdiagnosis of their subject's honesty. No matter how many times they say "it works," the empirical evidence does not support their conclusions. That means they are missing as many lies as the ones they catch AND they are labeling some truths as lies. Hard myth to break, too!
TheLieGuy 2 years ago
Sorry! Nice try. Been tested! Doesn't work. New incident or not. Creative lie telling involves both hemispheres of the brain AND recall and construct functions. Quoting Bandler and Grider for one source.. "some people reconstruct their memories." 60+ studies do NOT support the conclusion of eye movement and deception.
TheLieGuy 3 years ago
Ok BUT! If the incident just happened, and the person had no time to reconstruct the incident before being questioned, eye movement CAN be informative. Like when your kids get in a fight and you break it up and ask who started it. Or if you ask questions they didn't expect or prepare for.
When people tell stories they leave out details, asking about those details can reveal if a person is lying.
bookhound63 3 years ago 2